What the heck is the "Secret Crisis?"

[Yamo]

They keep mentioning a "Secret Crisis" in the CU books and implying that it was a huge, epic deal that caused lots of crazy stuff to happen, but...

What's the real story behind it? If I want to run my PCs through a Secret Crisis adventure, what does that entail?

I honestly have no idea what the event is supposed to represent.

[Hermit]

CU5th, pg. 25, in the year of 1985
"The Secret Crisis, a war across space and time involving all the heroes that had ever existed, occurs."

That's it, but given it's a homage to DC's Crisis and Marvel's Secret Wars; a lot of us are gleefully rubbing our hands together to expand on that and use it for our own campaigns.

[Agent Escafarc]

It's just a homage to DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Marvel's Secret Wars.

[Yamo]

It's just a homage to DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Marvel's Secret Wars.

And that's all well and fine, but I have no idea what those are. If you're going to put it in your game book, at least include enough utilitarian background on it for the GM to be able to use it without hunting down any out-of-print comics that he might not be interested in, anyway.

Know what I mean?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo
And that's all well and fine, but I have no idea what those are. If you're going to put it in your game book, at least include enough utilitarian background on it for the GM to be able to use it without hunting down any out-of-print comics that he might not be interested in, anyway.
Secret Wars involved the Beyonder pulling heroes and villains from the Marvel Universe to fight in a massive battle for a specific prize.

Crisis on Infinite Earths was DC's way of combining all of their Earth universes into one entity. This involed a massive battle between good and evil (the Monitor and Anti-Monitor) which eventually led to the destruction and rewriting of all of DC's continuity (up to that point).

Both of these things were HUGE comic events in the 80s. The fact that you know nothing about either of them makes you the exception, not the norm here. Most comic book fans have some basic knowledge of those events. It is sort of like a car fan not knowing what a '57 Chevy is. :)

[Tech]

I did a Secret Wars series for awhile. Since we have several GM's in our campaign, we each pulled out our villains and heroes to use. It lasted about 7-9 episodes. The heroes won but not without extreme fights. A couple villains, sensing how the battle would turn out, helped the heroes out.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by Yamo
And that's all well and fine, but I have no idea what those are. If you're going to put it in your game book, at least include enough utilitarian background on it for the GM to be able to use it without hunting down any out-of-print comics that he might not be interested in, anyway.

Know what I mean?

You can get a trade paperback of Crisis at most bookstores, even though I hate what it did to the DC Universe, it is really well done and George Perez's artwork is great:)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Yamo
And that's all well and fine, but I have no idea what those are. If you're going to put it in your game book, at least include enough utilitarian background on it for the GM to be able to use it without hunting down any out-of-print comics that he might not be interested in, anyway.

Know what I mean?

Trust me Yamo, if they had tried to do that with all the references they made to various homages to DC and Marvel comics.... well, the book would have been a lot bigger and more expensive. Heck, it might have even had legal complications. Just my opinion though. Still, a lot of folks on these boards will be happy to fill you in on what they do know. Just ask. Geeks O plenty among us :D

[Supreme]

Well, HERO shouldn't be making broad assumptions about their audience either. I don't have the CU (I prefer to write my own stuff from scratch) but I imagine that they were just whetting the fancy of the comic nuts who would recognize the allusions. There's probably also some sticky legal issues there with copyright infringement.

Yamo, both Marvel's "Sercret Wars" (I think) and DC's "Crisis on Infinite Earths" are currently in print in trade paperback collections (in other words, in one book each). Check it out at your local bookstore, or buy them online. I will warn you that neither of them is written especially well, though "Crisis" is certainly the better of the two.

[Yamo]

Both of these things were HUGE comic events in the 80s. The fact that you know nothing about either of them makes you the exception, not the norm here. Most comic book fans have some basic knowledge of those events. It is sort of like a car fan not knowing what a '57 Chevy is.

True, but doesn't Champions assume that the reader is ignorant of such concepts as the golden, silver, and bronze ages and the basic superhero archetypes (brick, energy projector, etc)? :)

It's true that I've never been a comic book fan. I'm still not. I just don't enjoy the medium.

However, I do buy all HERO books without exception, and would like to be able to use the information in them without having to become a comics enthusiast.

It's bad form to assume that everybody who buys your book is going to fully comprehend a reference to some decades-old comic plotline.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Yamo


It's bad form to assume that everybody who buys your book is going to fully comprehend a reference to some decades-old comic plotline.
In fairness to Darren and Steve...
Well, I don't think they assumed any such thing. Sometimes authors write in things they themselves enjoy, and if others catch on, so much the better. It is still something vague enough that even someone else who was not familiar with the comics could develop on their own.

[Talon]

I've never read the comics in questions; what meager knowledge I have about the Secret Wars/the other one comes from absorbing snippets of information from comic-clueful friends.

I don't see an issue in not going into more detail; if you don't know what it refers to, then you can make up your own "battle across space and time involving all heroes". Or, someday Hero will come out with Secret Crisis Hero and we'll all find out that it really involved all the heroes of the multiverse battling to keep Seeker out of the CU. :) If they didn't explain the watermelon, I don't see that they have to provide details here.

[Yamo]

If they didn't explain the watermelon, I don't see that they have to provide details here.

At least I don't need help with that reference!

[Kid Chaos]

Don't know muchabout it, then write your own. The name itself lends well to GM creativity. A Secret Crisis doesn't leave to much for GM development true. It has to be secret and apparently a reality shattering event (RSE). Best case scenario there are a virus, magic, time travel fun. or alien invasion that has to be met and defeated before it hits earth. That way exactly how everything changed is tailored to your campaign. Perhaps the event itself causes the birth of new heroes an villians, etc.

Barring that route stick with the intent of the crisis and substitute another RSE of your choice. There are so many ways to destroy a continium, or at least alter it significantly.

You could also ignore the RSE ifm for examplem the original CU history never happened in your campaign.

That's all I can think of at them moment.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Supreme
Well, HERO shouldn't be making broad assumptions about their audience either. I don't have the CU (I prefer to write my own stuff from scratch) but I imagine that they were just whetting the fancy of the comic nuts who would recognize the allusions. There's probably also some sticky legal issues there with copyright infringement.
Well first off, there are no copyright issues at all. Copyright involves using someone else's material as is, not a variance of someone else's material. That is why Astro City can have Samaritan just like Metropolis can have a Superman. It is the same reason Millennium City can have Kinetik just as Central City has the Flash.

Secondly, most things in Champions (1st through 5th edition) are a homage to something from the comic books. Having a basic understand of Nighthawk also implies a limited understanding who Batman is. The same thing goes for Defender, Grond, Mechanon, Dr. Destoyer, and several dozen other characters. The fact that you "get it" just makes it that much more fun. If you do not "get" that Mechanon is an Ultron clone then you just take the character at its face value. DOJ should not have to explain to you that Mechanon is like Ultron, or not use Mechanon in its universe just because some players have no idea who Ultron is. "Getting it" just adds to the enjoyment, but it does not take away from the playability in any fashion.

If someone does not know what Secret Wars or Crisis is, then the brief description of Secret Crisis is what they have to go on. If "The Secret Crisis, a war across space and time involving all the heroes that had ever existed, occurs" is not enough information for the GM then he should avoid running adventures in the event during that time period. But that does not mean that those of us who "get it" should not enjoy the inside joke.

[Darren Watts]

Yeah, it's just a gag. I stuck it in primarily as a tribute to my own home campaign, which ran a multi-session epic we called the "Secret Crisis" and allowed the players to bring in as temporary PCs a large number of their favorite characters from TV, movies and books for a session or two. The actual list of characters who appeared in the adventure that we would have no prayer of actually including in a book anywhere included Kwai Chang Caine, the Lone Ranger, Dr. Who, Godzilla, El Santo, a Vampire Slayer, and the various superpowered members of KISS.

As you can see, it's pretty unlikely any such scenario will ever get written up in an official Hero publication. So feel free to define it for yourselves! dw

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by Monolith
If you do not "get" that Mechanon is an Ultron clone then you just take the character at its face value. DOJ should not have to explain to you that Mechanon is like Ultron, or not use Mechanon in its universe just because some players have no idea who Ultron is. "Getting it" just adds to the enjoyment, but it does not take away from the playability in any fashion.


Ultron! I thought he was a clone of The Contruct;) (For those who don't get it The Contruct is a very obscure JLA villian I keep hoping that DC will bring back:D )

[Tom McCarthy]

And I first thought Mechanon was Computo (LSH villain who sprang from the team's major domo computer).

[Lord Liaden]

Nah, Mechanon is actually an early prototype of Metallus. (And I'm still waiting for that time-travel crossover story guest starring Space Ghost!) :p

[Prometheus]

Uh, duh, guys. Mechanon is obviously homage to Mechanon from Eclipse comics.

[Darren Watts]

Originally posted by Agent Escafarc
Ultron! I thought he was a clone of The Contruct;) (For those who don't get it The Contruct is a very obscure JLA villian I keep hoping that DC will bring back:D )

Yay Steve Englehart Justice Leagues! Not to date myself or anything, but those were the first comics I actually enjoyed and kept as a kid. The first Manhunters storyline was one of DC's all-time high points. dw

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
Yay Steve Englehart Justice Leagues! Not to date myself or anything, but those were the first comics I actually enjoyed and kept as a kid. The first Manhunters storyline was one of DC's all-time high points. dw

That was one of the best runs of any title in my opinion. It was just just plain old fun. Included two of the best Team-ups too with the JLA/JSA teaming up with the LSH and the heroes of Earth S:D

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Darren Watts

As you can see, it's pretty unlikely any such scenario will ever get written up in an official Hero publication. So feel free to define it for yourselves! dw

Darren, I'm curious. What was the Beyonder/Anti-Monitor/Whatever that you used for that one? Was a particular force/being behind it all? And if so, can it be found in the books? :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Hermit
Darren, I'm curious. What was the Beyonder/Anti-Monitor/Whatever that you used for that one? Was a particular force/being behind it all? And if so, can it be found in the books? :)

Baring official indication, why not the Over-the-Horizoner or the Aloofer or the Exceeder :rolleyes:

Im partial to 'The DUDE' myself.

Imagine this scenario:
"So, The DUDE snaps his fingers and all heroes and villains from all realities are instantly transported to DUDE-Space; a explanation-defying alternate Multiverse completely under the control of The DUDE. Bad Guys got Skins, Good Guys got Shirts; you all have to work together to beat up on the Bad Guys to score Power Play Bonus points and win The Game of The DUDE! The DUDE is downsizing the Omniverse, and the top performers in The Game of The DUDE will make the layoff cut, and the others get pink slips. You obviously dont want to get laid off from this job, cause there wont be another one out there after The DUDE liquidates 98% of all planes of existance to make a new 'coherent' reality spectrum. Ok, now FIGHT!"

Bonus points to the GM that can shoe-horn a Cosmic Geometric Shape into the mix. Also, if this proves to be even marginally viable commercially, there will be a sequel even more contrived than the original! We promise!

[Hermit]

Don't mince words Killer Shrike, tell us how you really feel ;)

[dbsousa]

In order to explain away the differences between 4th and 5th, retcon out ten years of odd, dangling, and confusing plotlines, and rewrite everyone's character after many years away from the game, I introduced the Millenium Bug. An incarnation of the Demon they fought in episode 3 or 4, MB was summoned at the dawn of the Millenium, and lived backwards through time for 1000 years. Every hero in the previous millenium fought it, and the battles changed the last 1000 years in ways both subtle and extreme. The most signifigant change (to the players) is that the members of our team, Good Guys, Inc., don't meet until the current millenium.

The name of the new game: GGI REBOOT

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Hermit
Darren, I'm curious. What was the Beyonder/Anti-Monitor/Whatever that you used for that one? Was a particular force/being behind it all? And if so, can it be found in the books? :)
It was probably the "Trickster." The same entity which is now plaguing everyone in the HERO/SAS Showdown. :)

[Darren Watts]

Well, looking back at my notes, the cosmic being involved was called Entropy. However, the time screwups were not his direct fault, since it was all part of a plan by the Master (of Dr. Who fame) to steal both his powers and those of the Gallifreyan Time Lords (especially from the Tomb of Rassilon.) Like I said, far too many copyright infractions to carry over into an official Hero product. Maybe someday I'll rewrite it. dw

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
Well, looking back at my notes, the cosmic being involved was called Entropy. However, the time screwups were not his direct fault, since it was all part of a plan by the Master (of Dr. Who fame) to steal both his powers and those of the Gallifreyan Time Lords (especially from the Tomb of Rassilon.) Like I said, far too many copyright infractions to carry over into an official Hero product. Maybe someday I'll rewrite it. dw Perhaps it can eventually become the ultimate multi-universe crossover (Hero, Gestalt, San Angelo, M&M, V&V, Traveller, Forgotten Realms, World of Darkness, et al... or at least for all the companies interested in participating). ;)

[SuperPheemy]

AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Heroman! save us!!!!

Gods below, the friction between the WoD and FR fans alone would cause enough flames to ignite the atmosphere itself!

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Monolith
Well first off, there are no copyright issues at all. Copyright involves using someone else's material as is, not a variance of someone else's material. That is why Astro City can have Samaritan just like Metropolis can have a Superman. It is the same reason Millennium City can have Kinetik just as Central City has the Flash.

<p>Oh, sure. You can say that <b>now</b>. Didn't help Fawcett Comics in the whole "Captain Marvel is obviously a Superman clone" lawsuit. :-)

[assault]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy
AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Heroman! save us!!!!

Gods below, the friction between the WoD and FR fans alone would cause enough flames to ignite the atmosphere itself!

I imagine that the Traveller fans might have some involvement in this too. The Traveller Mailing List is one of the biggest collections of Mad Scientists I have ever seen. I can just _imagine_ how well they would get on with the WoD crowd.

I haven't read the FRED version of Star Hero yet, but it would be scary to see what they would do to its economics...

Alan
(still chuckling)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
Well, looking back at my notes, the cosmic being involved was called Entropy. However, the time screwups were not his direct fault, since it was all part of a plan by the Master (of Dr. Who fame) to steal both his powers and those of the Gallifreyan Time Lords (especially from the Tomb of Rassilon.) Like I said, far too many copyright infractions to carry over into an official Hero product. Maybe someday I'll rewrite it. dw
Thanks for the info.


Mmm perhaps I'll have the universe threatened by a villain named Fuzion. Seems appropriate somehow :)

[Nolgroth]

Originally posted by Hermit
Mmm perhaps I'll have the universe threatened by a villain named Fuzion. Seems appropriate somehow

Boo! :) At least it isn't the Proprietor. I keep getting this flash of some universally powered ghetto/projects landlord whenever that name comes up.

[Tamashii2000]

Hmm A battle between Takofanes and Istvatha V'Han might be a good source for a 'secret war' type game.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Hermit
Mmm perhaps I'll have the universe threatened by a villain named Fuzion. Seems appropriate somehow :)

And the fuzion agents would all have this logo: <img src="http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=45569">

:D

[Captain Obvious]

I realize I'm a few days behind on this thread, but...

I have only a vague idea of what the Secret Wars were, and never heard of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. If they came out in the early to mid-80's, it was during a comics down-time for me. I quit reading comics in the late 70's and didn't get started up again until the late 80's (after I started playing Champions, as a matter of fact:D ) Actually, except for some comics I bought as stocking stuffers last Christmas, I haven't read any since, oh, about the mid-90's...

So, yeah, I'm not too hip with current comics canon. I just know supers when I see them....

[assault]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious
I have only a vague idea of what the Secret Wars were, and never heard of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. If they came out in the early to mid-80's, it was during a comics down-time for me. I quit reading comics in the late 70's and didn't get started up again until the late 80's (after I started playing Champions, as a matter of fact:D )

Where you reading any DC titles in the late 80's? If so, you may have noticed considerable changes in many of the characters from the late 70's. These were all pretty much consequences of the Crisis.

Basically, DC killed off a lot of their minor characters, and a couple of major ones like Supergirl and the Flash (Barry Allen). They reworked the backgrounds of a lot of other characters, so Superman, for example, was never Superboy, his parents were still alive, and his power levels were reduced (although they began creeping up again almost immediately).

Some of the changes were good. Some sucked. There ya go.

The series itself was pretty uninteresting.

As for the Champions Universe: I was considering using the 4th Ed universe as a parallel universe - "Earth-4", with Strike Force as "Earth-3", and the current universe as "Earth-5". Of course, that raises the question as to who gets to designate themselves "Earth-1"! Wouldn't the inhabitants of any particular world designate themselves "Earth-1"? That is, of course, unless there is some kind of agreed reference point for naming universes... (Technically, it should be "Universe-1", "Universe-2", and so on, anyway, but clearly this terminology is somewhat humancentric. Too bad.)

The alternative is to use the "Secret Crisis" as a way of saying that the 4th Ed universe was what existed "before" the crisis, and the 5th Ed one is what exists "afterwards". Of course, this is change that occurred throughout the whole of space and time, so "before" and "after" doesn't really make sense.

My brain hurts.

Still, it might be fun to play a set of scenarios where Seeker and the "old" Champions sacrifice themselves to save the universe, with only Defender surviving into the new, changed universe.

I like the idea of Fuzion being the villain. :)

Alan

[Rage]

Originally posted by Monolith
Secret Wars involved the Beyonder pulling heroes and villains from the Marvel Universe to fight in a massive battle for a specific prize.

Crisis on Infinite Earths was DC's way of combining all of their Earth universes into one entity. This involed a massive battle between good and evil (the Monitor and Anti-Monitor) which eventually led to the destruction and rewriting of all of DC's continuity (up to that point).

Both of these things were HUGE comic events in the 80s. The fact that you know nothing about either of them makes you the exception, not the norm here. Most comic book fans have some basic knowledge of those events. It is sort of like a car fan not knowing what a '57 Chevy is. :)


Che-vey?
Don't you meabn Kavey?
I must assume that my extensive car knowledge skill thingy is right and that you are stupid and wrong and stupid and a stupid ass faced moron.
:p ;)

hee hee ass face.