Mute?

[lucky]

How would one design a Power which mutes a single target? The SFX is psychokinetically holding the target's jaw closed or restraining the tongue, thereby depriving them of speech. The obvious solution is to build it with Transform, but I try to avoid using Transform whenever possible. Would Darkness with "Selective Target" work?
Thanks in advance!

[McCoy]

Depends. I would say darkness, or images, or even mind control, single command, don't speak.

However, were this a campagine where incantation was a common limitation, I would say supress may be the effect you're looking for.

[Lord Liaden]

Darkness vs. Hearing prevents any sounds from being perceived inside or outside its Area Of Effect, so that seems like a good working basis. If you buy it with the Usable As Attack Advantage, it will stick to the targetted character wherever he moves. Since UAA Powers are supposed to have a reasonably common Defense, I'd suggest making that STR equal to whatever you define the TK STR of this Power would be. (My guideline would be, no more than the Active Points in TK equal to the Active Points in the Darkness Power.)

Then I'd add a Custom Limitation, "Only Affects Target's Speech" - that should be worth -1 at least.

I hope that's helpful. I'm sure others will be along with more suggestions.

[lucky]

McCoy wrote:
were this a campagine where incantation was a common limitationActually, this is in a supers campaign where "Incantations" are not at all common as a Limitation. The character is a psychokinetic who uses his powers in subtle ways.

[caris]

Hmmm... talk to the GM, and see if s/he would let you make a grab vs. their tongue (at appropriate penalities) with the telekenisis.

[Lord Liaden]

Hmmm... talk to the GM, and see if s/he would let you make a grab vs. their tongue (at appropriate penalities) with the telekenisis.

Hmm... you know, if the TK had Fine Manipulation, I just might go for that. Good suggestion. :thumbup:

[Dust Raven]

I forgot where, but one of the books suggested that the "voice" be consideres as a sense (part of the Hearing Group) for purposes of negating it with sense affecting powers. It's kinda cludgy, but seems to work okay in practice. Basically you can buy a Darkness versus Voice (or a Flash Versus Voice) and attack your target. My favorite construct based on this concept if the Engangle that stops the Voice Group (like when Spiderman gagged Jameson in the first film). I had a DEMON Hunter who's weapons were specifically designed for maximum effectiveness against spell casters. Which pretty much meant he had this kind of Entangle (stops gestures and incantations automatically).

Alternately, given your SFX, I would say buy a Telekinetic Tricks Power Skill and make a roll on that then attack with a -2 Penalty. if you succeed, you've done it and the target needs to make a STR roll to escape.

[lucky]

caris wrote:
Hmmm... talk to the GM
Actually, I am the GM. :king: This is for a villain I'm designing for my supers campaign.

caris wrote:
make a grab vs. their tongue (at appropriate penalities)
But what if the tongue isn't visible? Let's say it's dark or the person has their mouth closed or the back is turned or whatever--I'd like this NPC to have the option of simply grabbing the jaw and holding it shut.

[Dust Raven]

But what if the tongue isn't visible? Let's say it's dark or the person has their mouth closed or the back is turned or whatever--I'd like this NPC to have the option of simply grabbing the jaw and holding it shut.
The character's telekinetic, right? Just make a Grab to the head (it's a minus -8 penalty) and you've got it immobolized, which as far as I'm concerned would allow the grabber to hold the jaw shut.

If you don't want the -8 penalty, check out the Choke Hold martial arts maneuver (which gets kinda funky when you involve TK). It's easy enough to moddle something similar using Powers that has the SFX of holding the jaw shut, and thereby keeping the target from talking.

[lucky]

Alternately, given your SFX, I would say buy a Telekinetic Tricks Power Skill and make a roll on that then attack with a -2 Penalty. if you succeed, you've done it and the target needs to make a STR roll to escape.

Just make a Grab to the head (...) check out the Choke Hold martial arts maneuver
These are both elegant solutions--thank you. :)

[lucky]

I actually have a related question: if I were to go with the "Telekinetic Tricks" Power Skill, would you allow this character to, for example, shut down an opponent with a "vocal" Power Framework?

I'm thinking of someone like Banshee from the old Uncanny X-Men comic, a character who derives all of his powers from his "sonic scream." Banshee would occasionally be muted by an enemy's attack and lose the entirety of his powers: in HERO terms, his Power Framework was Suppressed (or Drained or whatever).

Do you think that such a devastating blow could be dealt with a skill roll, or should the opponent require a muting Power (built along any of the lines suggested above) in order to effectively cripple another character this way?

[caris]

I actually have a related question: if I were to go with the "Telekinetic Tricks" Power Skill, would you allow this character to, for example, shut down an opponent with a "vocal" Power Framework?

I'm thinking of someone like Banshee from the old Uncanny X-Men comic, a character who derives all of his powers from his "sonic scream." Banshee would occasionally be muted by an enemy's attack and lose the entirety of his powers: in HERO terms, his Power Framework was Suppressed (or Drained or whatever).

Do you think that such a devastating blow could be dealt with a skill roll, or should the opponent require a muting Power (built along any of the lines suggested above) in order to effectively cripple another character this way?

To actually stop powers not bought with the Incantations Limitations, I'd require the use of building an Adjustment Power.

[Dust Raven]

These are both elegant solutions--thank you. :)You're welcome. :)

I actually have a related question: if I were to go with the "Telekinetic Tricks" Power Skill, would you allow this character to, for example, shut down an opponent with a "vocal" Power Framework?

I'm thinking of someone like Banshee from the old Uncanny X-Men comic, a character who derives all of his powers from his "sonic scream." Banshee would occasionally be muted by an enemy's attack and lose the entirety of his powers: in HERO terms, his Power Framework was Suppressed (or Drained or whatever).

Do you think that such a devastating blow could be dealt with a skill roll, or should the opponent require a muting Power (built along any of the lines suggested above) in order to effectively cripple another character this way?
Though The Book recomends not using Incantations un a superhero game, I use it for character like Banshee because it makes sense. There was a character in a campaign I ran a few years ago named Descant who has vocal powers, all bought with that Limitation. If you could gag her (Choke Hold, Darkness field, etc) her powers wouldn't work.

If that Limitation isn't actually being used, you would need an Adjustment Power, probably Suppress, to shut down or hinder vocal based Powers. I don't like this approach though, because it's really expensive for such a narrowly focused ability (wouldn't affect any other type of sound based power, just vocals). So if I ever make a character with sonic abilities actually based on the use of the voice, they have Incantations so anyone can do this using a logical attack.

[lucky]

That's pretty much exactly what I thought--thanks again. :)

[Phil]

To actually stop powers not bought with the Incantations Limitations, I'd require the use of building an Adjustment Power.

I wouldnt. In the same way you can tie someone's hands up to stop them aiming their finger-tip EB, tie their hands over their eyes to stop them firing their eye-beams and so on. It's part of the SFX of the power.

Having said, a oral attack may be more vulnerable to SFX-based limitations than other forms of EB, in which case the attack itself may have a -1/4 limitation, rather than exercising an extreme Hero System judgement "You can Ogre's mouth shut, but you cant hold Banshee's mouth shut, because she has a vocally-based EB"

Phil

[Constantine]

I wouldnt. In the same way you can tie someone's hands up to stop them aiming their finger-tip EB, tie their hands over their eyes to stop them firing their eye-beams and so on. It's part of the SFX of the power.

Having said, a oral attack may be more vulnerable to SFX-based limitations than other forms of EB, in which case the attack itself may have a -1/4 limitation, rather than exercising an extreme Hero System judgement "You can Ogre's mouth shut, but you cant hold Banshee's mouth shut, because she has a vocally-based EB"

Phil

I would say that unless you take some kind of limitation, even if you say a power usually originates somewhere on your body, you could manifest it from somewhere else in a pinch...

[lucky]

(Caveat: GMs can obviously do whatever the hell they want in their own campaigns, where they are :king: )

Doesn't the 5th Edition book clearly stipulate that the origin point of a character's powers must be chosen at character creation and can not be subsequently altered? I believe that some kind of Advantage must be taken in order to change the origin point at will, even in dire circumstances.

[SirViss]

If someone Sonic powers come from the mouth. and could be stopped by Choke Hold, holding their mouth closed with TK or some such, I would probably say that the player should put Restrainable on the power framework.

If he has Restrainable on it, I would allow Darkness to "Hearing" to stop the power only if the Darkness SFX were appropriate to restrain the person from speaking. A "Zone of Silence" would stop noise, but I would say it would not stop a Sonic Blast (unless it was NND :) ). A Darkness that is "I keep his mouth shut", then I would have no problem with it. :D

Of course, YMMV. :)

[SirViss]

Doesn't the 5th Edition book clearly stipulate that the origin point of a character's powers must be chosen at character creation and can not be subsequently altered? I believe that some kind of Advantage must be taken in order to change the origin point at will, even in dire circumstances.

Yes, 5ER p.98 "Power's Point of Origin" (Sorry, I don't have FREd :(). The fact is that it doesn't take into account how to prevent a power from being used. It just states that wherever your powers come from there will be advantages & disadvantages. The example they give is that, if laser beam come out of your eyes, it will be hard to free yourself if your hands are tied behind your back. If a power can be moderately be easy to stop, I think it should have Restrainable.

Of course if:

...tie their hands over their eyes to stop them firing their eye-beams...
or over the mouth to prevent a Sonic Scream, that would probably convince them to not use their powers. :D

[Dust Raven]

If someone Sonic powers come from the mouth. and could be stopped by Choke Hold, holding their mouth closed with TK or some such, I would probably say that the player should put Restrainable on the power framework.
I disagree with this approach. There's nothing in the rules about taking advantage of the point of origin to prevent the use of any given Power, only that there will be something you can and can't do because of it. If the mouth if the point of origin, then closing the mouth wouldn't stop it, anymore than closing the hand into a fist would stop an EB that originated there. If you think it would make sense that it did, the Power is actually Restrainable (or with Incantation, depending the SFX).

[BobGreenwade]

I think in this case just doing a Grab with regular TK should suffice. If he wants to make it a lasting effect, Entangle with Blocks Sense (Hearing) and the Limitation Only Stops Speech should do the trick.

[SirViss]

I disagree with this approach. There's nothing in the rules about taking advantage of the point of origin to prevent the use of any given Power, only that there will be something you can and can't do because of it. If the mouth if the point of origin, then closing the mouth wouldn't stop it, anymore than closing the hand into a fist would stop an EB that originated there. If you think it would make sense that it did, the Power is actually Restrainable (or with Incantation, depending the SFX).

Hey Dust Raven,

I think I expressed myself badly, because this is what I ment. I don't think that a power should be prevented from working by closing his mouth, unless he has "Restrainable" or other appropriate limitation.

Sorry for the confusion. :D

[Sean Waters]

How about using the mechanic for 'Flash' and defining the ability to make sound as a notional special sense group? You could make it continuous to keep it going.

The problem with using darkness is geting rid of it. Take for example The Teke, who has 60 STR TK and is concentrating on preventing you opening your mouth. Supressing that would take 100 points (90TK and fine manipulation). Supressing darkness to talking would cost, what, 10?

If you can grab someone with normal strength and hold theirm outh shut surely you can do the same with TK. Fine manipulation and a grab roll would do it for me.

[Dust Raven]

I wouldn't even require Fine Manipulation for something as simple as holding a jaw shut. It's a very simple application of presure.