Reasons for "Evil" characters to follow the GM's hooks?

[Alkai]

I've been GM'ing a campaign where the players all have "evil" characters, with "evil" being more along the lines of "self-serving to the point of ignoring anyone outside the group, except as potential targets for extortion, money, or gear."

This has created a problem for me. The players do not grab at any of the hooks that I've tried to send their way. I realize that they are "playing in character" by ignoring anything that does not threaten them directly. I'm just not sure how to get them involved with my developed plot.

Speaking generally, how do you guys get evil characters to *want* to follow your lead, without herding them around? The last thing I want to do is force them down the path I've set up.

[Roth]

Unfortunately, you can't... If you are gming an "evil" campaign then you have to adjust for the fact that the pcs aren't going to do anything that doesn't serve them directly. And let's be frank here, sometimes getting the "good" pcs involved in anything is like pulling teeth.

Take a look at your plot and see if you can involve the pcs in a totally direct manner. Something that threatens them directly, or if they have dnpc types that they actually care about that are threatened by the events of the plot. Let us know how it goes.

[OddHat]

Slaughter them all and then have them start fresh with good PCs.

Or, offer them treasure and lie to them about how easy it will be to get, then face them with foes who will keep trying to kill them no matter what they say or do.

[BlackSword]

Have never tried this. A few things I can think of that may or may not work.

-Go like a regular game of goodie-two-shoes. Have a good organization trying to wreck one of their well laid out plans. They have to stop the do-gooders before much is done. Develop threats. Perhaps a scientist has discovered a way to nuetralize one of their powers (assuming Super-villains game, but can be changed to a magic user as well).
-Make plot hooks they ignore turn into threats. In this way they will have to be more pro-active or face a more difficult challenge.
-If they are part of a larger evil organization, perhaps another faction is jealous of their power and will try to bring them down a notch. By definition, selfish groups tend not to be a monolithic evil.
-Ask them what their plans are and develop stories about how they plan to rule the world. Let them be pro-active, just pro-active a week in advance so you can develop a story for them.

[Alkai]

Thanks a lot for the input, everyone.

I will go back and think through my options. Will most likely take circumstances that they can't avoid, at least for very long.

[JohnTaber]

-Ask them what their plans are and develop stories about how they plan to rule the world. Let them be pro-active, just pro-active a week in advance so you can develop a story for them.

This is a good idea. Develop threads around their current goals. Put in roadblocks that might lead to other "opportunities". ;)

PS I really hate GMing for evil PC. In fact I pretty much have stopped running campaigns where the PC are not "good guys" to some degree.

[Hugh Neilson]

In most genres, the bad guys act and the good guys react. The evil PC's need to decide what they want to do, and take steps to do it. The good guys' reaction, and likely those of the other bad guys, makes your scenario.

If they are not so much evil as selfish, however, just offer rewards for performing certain tasks. Cash for adventure is pretty much classic sword & sorcery.

[Rhys]

This is where knowing the characters' motivations can be a really big plus. Find out what it is each character wants to accomplish. If the players haven't thought it out, it will give them a chance to develop their characters even further and bring more depth to their role-playing. Forget about trying to get them to follow your plot. Develop something along the lines of what they want. I never start a game without finding out from the players what it is their characters' want to achieve. That makes planning way easier for me and insures that the characters will be actively involved in moving things along.

If you're dedicated to sticking to the plot you've developed, make the characters' lives and future well-being dependent on doing whatever it is you want them to do. Stay away from blatant manipulation. Most players don't like having their characters forced by GMs to do something, but if they are forced by circumstances which they were involved in creating into doing something, that's different.

[Patriot]

Have a bunch of paladin types beat the bejeeezus out of them , let them live, drop a clue tio there origins(the paladins) and center a scenario around them liberating A city from the overly oppresive forces of good...

[Alkai]

Very interesting thread. You've given me much to think about...

Now if I can only come up with something before tomorrow night, heh...

[RDU Neil]

Since you described the characters as "selfish" I thought I'd run with that idea. (I'm also going to assume this just applies to the characters, not the players. If you have a bunch of self-centered, selfish players... god help you.)

Selfish can take many forms. It can mean "I don't want to have to do anymore than I have to, to be comfortable." Kind of a laziness issue... selfishness being "Just leave me alone, and don't get in the way of my next ale!" If all the characters are like this, then you will have a tough time motivating them... because their selfishness is defined as being "demotivated" in a way.

These could be "born to lose" types who spend all their money on wine and women and only make effort like robbing the local convenient store
These could be active isolationists... the mad scientist types who want to carry on their own works alone... but have to venture out to get resources occaionally.


Selfishness can also be, "I intend to actively get what I want, crushing those who interfere, and on a really bad day, trying to make the world the way I want it to be." This is a proactive selfishness... where the person has a goal (goals) and will have them no matter what it costs other people. These kind of characters should be easy to motivate, as you just throw obstacles in the way of them reaching their goals.

The issue here is that the PLAYERS may not have thought about this. Is the whole group agreed that evil really means selfish... or do we have some psychopaths in the group... is one setting up the others as fodder for their schemes... is there a group goal, or does everyone just have their own agenda?

It might require a metagame conversation. GM to players, "Why do your charcters do what they do? What is important to them? Why do they even hang out together?" The younger, more immature players may think of "evil" as simply lack of responsibility. They go where they want, when they want. This is not conducive to gaming. Gaming is a cooperative endeavor, and if everyone is playing a truly evil/selfish character, then cooperation begins to disintigrate... and the game disintigrates.

Good luck... but remember, if they want to be villains... treat 'em as such. They can trust no one... society doesn't really accept them ... everyone will look for their weakness etc. The best you might get is a Deadwood type situation, where a lawless environment lets the strong and brutal rule... for a while, before society eventually asserts itself.

[Vanguard00]

Not that I have much in the way of positive to add, but I've never let a campaign get to this point.

I don't mind evil, self-serving, selfish, (insert other negative adjective here) characters, but I do require that all players understand that at some point they will have to come up with a reason to get themselves involved because frankly, I'm not interested in running 5 solo campaigns. I make it clear at the outset that it will be "group oriented" campaign, and if they don't want to be part of the group expect to be written out of the campaign and/or killed off.

Having said that, the only thing I can think of is to ask your characters flat out, "What would make your character work with others?" Hold 'em to it, whatever they answer, and if that still doesn't work go with Oddhat's suggestion of kill 'em all and start from scratch.

[Hugh Neilson]

I make it clear at the outset that it will be "group oriented" campaign, and if they don't want to be part of the group expect to be written out of the campaign and/or killed off.

Good advice! I once had a group of characters that appeared to be splintering at the end of a game session. Prior to the start of the next session, I took pout a die and placed it on the table, and said "It looks like the party may break up. That's fine. However, I want to be clear at the outset how that will work. I'm not running a series of solo campaigns, and I won't force the group back together. Once your characters have decided which way each is going, I'll roll this die. Whatever number comes up, that's the character we stick with. Any others that went with him or her are still part of that party. As for the rest, they go on to their own adventures - which are not the focus of this campaign - so their players will need new characters."

An ability to compromiose suddenly developed and the party stayed together.

[KA.]

Great posts so far!
All I have to add is that it really does come down to "selfish" or "evil".
If they are evil, they shoud be actively planning things.
What kind of a bunch of lazy slugs would want to sit around roleplaying:
"Has the money run out from the Mint robbery last month?
If not, I am going to order another case of caviar and sit around eating it."
:slap:

If they are "evil" but unmotivated, just give them the Bugs Bunny treatment.
For those too young to remember, there was a Bugs Bunny cartoon where the goverment was paying a bounty for various animals: Wolves, Foxes, etc.
When Bugs Bunny finds out that the bounty for rabbits is only two cents, because rabbits are such sweet lovable creatures, he vows revenge on the world and goes on a rampage!
Maybe finding out that they are at the top of the "Least Wanted List", would spur the characters into being a bit more proactive. :D

If they are just smug and satisfied to enjoy the easy life that their ill-gotten gains provide, make things tougher on them.

I don't know if you have read much Conan or Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser, but these basically selfish characters just never seem to hold onto anything for long. Between their own extravagance, the actions of enemies, and just plain bad luck, they are never able to settle into any comfortable life for long.

Fortunes are stolen by even more cunning thieves, wars break out, curses are laid, you name it.

Your players may benefit from a similar treatment.
"Your bank account in the Caymans seems to have been hacked into."
"They are digging a new storm sewer through the site of your underground lair."
Etc. Etc.
If the players complain, just remind them that this is no more unfair than the kind of things that happen to "good" characters.
Arch-enemies are released from jail on technicalities, enemies thought long-dead show up with a vengeance, etc.
No reason why the bad guys should be immune from this sort of thing. :eg:

KA.

[TheEmerged]

I run a villain campaign. I find the following to be useful.

#1> Try to arrange a common motivation for the players in advance -- and it should be a broad enough motivation to base a campaign on. For my players this was a mutual hatred of PRIMUS, with the understanding that they'll need to gather resources first. Hence in the early part of the campaign they functioned somewhat as mercenaries, and as it's grown they're turning more toward their real motivation...

#2> You're not going to be able to "pop" scenarios on them the way you can heroes. The only way you'll really be able to is to get them follow another scenario and change it on them...

#3> What I do is to present the players with a list of opportunities and allow them to choose before I build the session. This also presents a chance to feed the PC's world backstory :D

[CBikle]

What genre is it ? Super-villains ? Fantasy ?

[TheRealVector]

I've read a lot of interesting posts here. I can only just reitterate that...

Evil campaigns require Evil plot hooks! From Alkai's post I'm not sure how he has tried motivating the players. I hope he wasn't fishing with the tried and true plot hooks of a traditional (i.e. good) campaign.

The time I had the most fun roleplaying was in a fantasy game when I played an EVIL sorcerer who aspired one day to rule the world ("There is no free will in the universe, there is only my will!"). Being of starting level it would have been fairly stupid to have just started running around commiting atrocities. Therefore, my character approached every encounter with one goal in mind: Influencing the "right" (the Good) people to gain thier admiration and trust. The fun was in the challenge of using every situration to further my evil goals and increasing my personal power while convincing everyone I was working for the common good.

Evil games can be fun and challenging with the right players. The GM will have to work a little harder to think outside the box.

[Mark Taylor]

I have to wonder why the PCs are not being directly threatened by plotlines. If they are, as you say, "self-serving to the point of ignoring anyone outside the group, except as potential targets for extortion, money, or gear", that would tend to make them a lot of enemies quite rapidly. In other words, you have plenty of excuses to threaten them directly! Some possible plotlines include:

One of the victims of one of the PCs' schemes, unbeknown to and unfortunately for them, happens to be a close relative / friend / lover / valued henchman / whatever of a major villain or a very powerful 'good guy', and the PCs are identified by some means, whether it be caught on CCTV, seen by a witness, a fingerprint left behind or some magical means if that's appropriate to the campaign. Either way, through pure bad luck or (better) lack of research or judgement they've attracted the attention of somebody far more powerful than themselves who's likely to make it his mission to hunt them down… and it's personal. This, of course, can provide plenty of plot fodder in itself, but it can also conveniently lead in to any one of the plot ideas below.


A master criminal of some other big bad guy who the PCs happen to have pissed off in some minor way (shouldn't be too hard to arrange) commits some crime so massively evil and heinous that its perpetrators will inevitably become the most wanted persons in the kingdom / country / world / wherever your campaign is set. The catch, of course, is that he has arranged for all the evidence to point to the PCs. They either have to try to prove their innocence or be hunted for the rest of their lives by the most powerful law enforcement agencies / general good guys in the campaign world with all of the resources at their disposal, whether they be magical / technological / whatever. If they don't seem inclined to want to bite the plot bait and try to prove their innocence, have events gradually escalate in such a manner as to make it clear that this is a battle they ultimately cannot win!


The PCs find out that a powerful 'good guy' who happens to be on their case is also searching for some powerful or just extremely valuable artefact that would be of huge value to the PCs and / or hugely detrimental to them should it fall into the hands of the good guy. Perhaps they discover this through a captured henchman, or some evidence left behind at the scene of a showdown with some of the good guy's henchmen. Either way, the PCs are at a disadvantage because the good guy and his people have all the clues and they have few or none. If the PCs want to get the clues they need to find the artefact they're going to have to try to extract them somehow from the very people who are hunting them down, and then race head-to-head against those same people to find it first.


A corrupt local law enforcement official sets a trap for the PCs (try to set it up so it looks like the PCs have a chance, but make sure the odds are subtly stacked against them). He cuts a deal allowing them to go free if they perform some kind of mission on his behalf. Of course, he's taken steps to make sure they cooperate. Perhaps he's fed them some kind of slow acting poison and won't hand out the antidote until they return, successfully, from their mission. Of course, he will probably try to make sure the PCs are silenced, permanently, once the mission is over, so arrange things so they can turn the tables in the end, possibly setting them up for a future revenge mission. Clichéd, but fun.

Of course, I have no idea what the era or genre of your campaign is, but all of these should work in almost any campaign background with some minor tweaking, and you can probably tweak them in other ways to fit the events of your campaign so far.

[CourtFool]

As always, allow me to direct you to...

6/666 Tips For GMing An Evil Group (http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=159#tips)

[Curufea]

I would have thought that most plot hooks based on a character's background would work, same as any other type of character. Character has a brother or sister, use them. If they ignore their backgrounds and personalities - they aren't roleplaying.

You could always use evil plot hooks for evil characters-
Blackmail, threats from the more powerful, choices that aren't choices, life-threatening consequences (ie the character swallowed poison - the antidote is held by McGuffin), betrayal (McGuffin gave antidote to someone else, who is the new McGuffin for the next adventure), etc..

[Just Joe]

I have never run a game for evil PC's, though just how good the PC's are varies from one campaign to the next. My current campaign is the most morally ambiguous I've run. I told the players that I want mostly PC's who are somewhat heroic but have significant character flaws. But I insisted that, at a minimum, they must design characters that have some sort of motivations that allow them to go on the adventures that the group is going on and at least appear to be cooperating.

If I were to run an evil campaign, I would think through these kinds of issues and discuss them with the players before characters were designed. But if your PC's are willing to cooperate with each other most of the time, then you should be OK. As others have said, you need to know what motivates them, but two "default" motivations are greed and fear. Dangle an opportunity for wealth or power or present them with a threat that will come to them if they don't go to it. If you go the threat route, you can have the threat grow if it isn't confronted, but eventually it just has to show up on their doorstep and kick their butts if all they're doing is sitting around on them.

One kind of evil PC game I've considered running is a low-to-mid-powered Champions game. I would encourage the PC's to start the campaign by planning a bank robbery and run with it from there, exploring different Superhero plot staples from the other side.