Invisible to Touch Group?

[lucky]

Under "Invisibility" in the 5th Edition book, it states that:

Characters should not normally buy Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group; simulate that ability with Desolidification. (p. 123)
Frankly, I don't understand this. Doesn't "invisible to touch" indicate the ability to not be felt, as opposed to actual intangibility?

The specific context for my question is a character who can create a telepathic "Someone-Else's-Problem" field around herself. The SEP Field is a radial telepathic projection emitted by a mentalist which 'tells' local minds to ignore selected sensory input, i.e. anything which reveal the telepath's position. In other words, although people are "seeing" the character (in the sense that light rays are bouncing off of her and being reflected into the eyes of observers), their brains are subconsciously ignoring the information. This means that all stimuli relating to the protected telepath (visual, aural, tactile, olfactory, etc.) are neglected.

For this power, isn't "Invisible to the Touch Group" exactly right?

[austenandrews]

You're absolutely right, Invisibility is a good match for that power.

I have no problem imagining other uses for Invisible To Touch that don't approach the realm of Desol. Frankly, statements in the rules like "it's normally done this way" or "you don't normally do it that way" I consider to be guidelines at best, author bias at worst. You know all those posts that get bounced from the "Rules Questions" forum to this one? Statements like these in the rules are analogous to those posts, and hence qualify as nothing more than author suggestions. IMO.

[Mike W]

MitchellS:

The term "Someone Else's Problem Field(SEP)" is from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The way the field works, a person sees that say, an ugly green spaceship has just landed in the middle of a cricket field, but the people who see the spaceship decide that it is someone else's problem and elect to not interact with that part of reality. In effect, they see the ship, they unconciously know to walk around it, but they do not conciously see it nor do they remember it because their mind can't handle having to deal with the consequences of seeing said ship land in the middle of a cricket field; instead, they subconciously pass the buck by calling it someone else's problem, thereby not having to deal with either the ship or the consequences of seeing it. So it isn't exactly desolidification.

To be honest, I'd build an SEP as mind control, limited effect "ignore". About 12 or 15d6 would be enough to make sure that no one properly even remembered it.

[austenandrews]

How about "Invisibility v.s. Memory?" :)

[Citizen Keen]

I agree with Mike W - I think Invisibility to Touch Group is much more in line with MitchellS's idea about the pickpocket.

Invisibility to Sight Group doesn't make you invisible to deduction. If it rains, you see an outline. If you walk in the sand, you leave tracks. If you punch through a wall, you see a hole burst through the wall.

Similarly, Invis to Touch would mean I couldn't feel you. But if you picked me up and threw me to the ground, I'd feel the rush of wind and loss of equilibrium as I was raised up in the air, and the solid impact of the ground. I'd be able to infer that something picked me up and threw me to the ground, I just wouldn't have felt what it was.

I think a SEP Field is much more a Mind Control power. It doesn't stop you from seeing or feeling (or in any other way sensing) the character, it just stops you from thinking (or caring) about the character. Thus, MC.

[Mike W]

Invisibility vs. memory, even if you could build it as a sense group(and I don't think you could) would not prevent you from interacting with the ship at the time you actually saw it.

[Dust Raven]

I'm fine with Invisibility to Touch, and often use it for Ninjas when they run through crowds (can't tell where's he's going, cuz nobody realizes a guy is rushing past them and bumping into people... no "trail" of angry people in otherwords), and the cleverist of pickpockets. I have also used it as an alternative to the "walks without a trace" abilities previously written up with Gliding.

Invisible to Touch along with other Senses (like Sight Group) could add to the illusion of not being there, even when stuff like rain hits you (still runs off instead of through you, but doesn't bounce).

[GaryB]

I would say Invisibility vs Touch is akin to being frictionless.

[Kristopher]

Desolid is going to be more appropriate 99% of the time.

[lucky]

Thanks for all the great ideas, everyone.

Is Mind Control really the best way to build this power? It seems so, at least initially, but the effect is to render the user invisible, right? So shouldn't we use Invisibility?

Also, I'd think that you'd need a f#ck-ton(*) of Mind Control, given that:

A) EGO+30 is required to force the target to perform actions s/he is "violently opposed to doing," which may include ignoring the mentalist;

B) Another +20 is added to that if the target is meant to forget what happened.
This means that in order to affect the average, run-of-the-mill Normal (EGO 8), 58 points of effect need to be rolled. With a Standard Effect Rule of 3 per die, that's 20 dice ( :eek: ) of Mind Control. Add Area Effect: Radius, 0 END ('cause no way am I paying for that on a per-phase basis) and possibly Personal Immunity (depending on the GM) and you're looking at, well... a f#ck-ton of Mind Control.

Nah, I'm thinking Invisibility is the way to go with this one.


(*) 2,204,623,000 lbs, for anyone still using Imperial measurements. :)

[Mike W]

Actually, I don't think you would need +30 since the target actually wants to avoid dealing with it(it's a game logic thing, at least in Hitchhiker's). Also, since the mind control only does ONE thing, you get a major limit(at least -1/2).

Invisibility sort of works based on the idea that you can actually see what is in the SEP if you know somethings is there and don't look directly at it(at least to start).

[lucky]

But the target only wants to avoid dealing with it because they're mind-controlled, yeah? There's a bit of a Catch-22 developing there... :) And even with a (-1/2) Limitation, it'd still be a damned expensive power.

I mean, I like the idea of using Mind Control, I'm just not sure it's feasible.

[Citizen Keen]

Well, Invis would make you invisible to machines, and machines shouldn't be affected by an SEP Field.

Also, I wouldn't think it should work versus "violently opposed" people - guards aren't violently opposed, but their archnemesis should be able to see them.

Lastly, why should targets forget that they've been affected? If they see it, but don't think about it, and then remember later. This is a classic move in movies. When the interrogator realizes they've been had. "Well, yeah, this guy in a tux did walk past the checkpoint, but I didn't think anything of it at the time."

[Mike W]

The fact that they don't want to deal with what happened was a part of the nature of beings in the Hitchhiker universe, power or no. It shows up in other literature too(vampire literature for instance). Mind Control seems to me to be the best way to express the power, even if it is expensive. It's a pretty nasty power, being able to make people avoid interacting with you, so it probably should be fairly expensive.

15D6 Mind Control 0 END(+1/2) AOE Radius(+1), single effect(-1/2), only for people looking directly at the character(-1/4), must achieve EGO +30(-1/2)
Active Points: 187
Real Cost: 83

Incredibly expensive, yes; but also very, very powerful. I mean, how many characters are even capable of attacking you when this power is going?

[Citizen Keen]

I'd ditch the 0 END, and in fact, increase it's END. This makes it a power the characters can turn on. If they're not paying attention, how would the character interact with anyone?

[Void]

Under "Invisibility" in the 5th Edition book, it states that:

Frankly, I don't understand this. Doesn't "invisible to touch" indicate the ability to not be felt, as opposed to actual intangibility?

The specific context for my question is a character who can create a telepathic "Someone-Else's-Problem" field around herself. The SEP Field is a radial telepathic projection emitted by a mentalist which 'tells' local minds to ignore selected sensory input, i.e. anything which reveal the telepath's position. In other words, although people are "seeing" the character (in the sense that light rays are bouncing off of her and being reflected into the eyes of observers), their brains are subconsciously ignoring the information. This means that all stimuli relating to the protected telepath (visual, aural, tactile, olfactory, etc.) are neglected.

For this power, isn't "Invisible to the Touch Group" exactly right?

The choice of special effect is very important. What you have described is mind control, not invisibility. You can be percieved but you demand that the target ignore you.

That is most appropriately built as mind control instead of invisibility.

As the book says, invisibility to touch is most appropriately purchased as a form of desolidification, perhaps with limitations. A chracter is always aware of his own body movements, invisibility does not block that. Thus, if he tries to move through an area where you are, and you are physically present, then you stop his motion. He knows something has stopped his motion.

To prevent him from 'recognizing' that he can't move through the door.. that is, to ignore you, you have to do something to his mind which interfers with his ability to reason about his environment.

Generally, invisibility should be something that happens to you which makes you difficult or impossible to see. If you are doing something to someone else (command: "ignore me!") then you have to use another power.

If you were merely trying to use psionics to mimic invisibility, then perhaps you could silently get away with this. However, you have a problem of special effect.. since a person with mental defense would, logically, be less susceptable to your invisibility than a 'normal'. Xavier, from the X-men, for instance should not be subject to your invisibility.. unless your psychic character is supposed to be more powerful that him.

[Super Squirrel]

I would not permit Invisibility to Touch Group, at least not in the way described. Because the effects that it would have are better described by other powers.

Touch, as a sense, is completely internal. This is unlike smell which is chemicals in the air. Sight which is light reflecting. Hearing which is sound waves. And taste which is chemicals on the taste buds. Touch is a reaction to physical contact. You feel responding pressure based on how much pressure you apply.

There are of course variations with touch. My desk is smooth, the wall behind me is course. A burner is hot. Ice is cold. I would permit Invisibility to Heat (Touch Based) or Invisibility to Texture (Touch Based).

Inivisibility to Touch Group would not make you fully invisible to touch. It would only make you non-discriminatory to touch. The only way touch can not affect you is if there is nothing to "feel" which is done with Desolidification or by making them think they didn't touch you with Mental Illusions.

Someone mentioned a pick pocket. How does the pick pocket make the wallet Invisibile to Touch in that case? It isn't the hand touching the person that gives the pick pocket away. It is the removing of the wallet. That is better done with a 1d6 Flash Touch Group, IPE, RSR( Stealth) or maybe a Teleportation 1" Only Effects Pick Pocketted Object or something like that.

[austenandrews]

How is this qualitatively any different than the Shadow "clouding men's minds?" Which I think most people would buy as Invisibility. Lucky's point is that adding Touch to the mix is appropriate. Of course it will have modifiers to make it into a telepathy-based power.

If you want to talk about edge cases where it breaks down, you can do that with any Power construct. Even Mind Control isn't going to work in the case where a person is picked up and flung to the ground, unless you get a really high roll, which doesn't scale in terms of points. At some point you're talking about an "absolute" power, which we all know Hero doesn't do well. Better to focus on the common case and whether a construct simulates the effect.


Inivisibility to Touch Group would not make you fully invisible to touch. It would only make you non-discriminatory to touch. The only way touch can not affect you is if there is nothing to "feel" which is done with Desolidification or by making them think they didn't touch you with Mental Illusions.
It sounds like you're arguing from Powers, not SFX. By that logic mind-based invisibility is necessarily Mental Illusions, too, because you're just "making them think they don't see you."

[austenandrews]

I have also used it as an alternative to the "walks without a trace" abilities previously written up with Gliding.
That's a cool idea (though it sounds expensive compared to Gliding).

[MikeyMitchell]

Invisibility to Touch could be interpreted as "feels like something else" - in the case where you have, for example, a Chameleon power. That way, if your character is holding up against a wall with his Invisibility, someone who touches him thinks he's a part of the wall.

But it's a bit weird; it overlaps with Shape Shift pretty badly.<BR><BR>

[Dust Raven]

Going back to Lucky's question (sorry I didn't actually address it earlier)...

I think Invisibility is the perfect mechanic. Reason from effects. The effect is that you can't be perceived by anyone, even people you can't perceive yourself but are nevertheless there to perceive you. That's Invisibility, pure and simple. The fact that machines without conscious minds and characters with a high EGO+Mental Defense can still see you is just a Limitation on it.

Think about it though. If you bought this through Mind Control, you'd need about 20d6, bought AE: Radius with gads of extra area (enough to reach the horizon) or maybe just MegaScale Area. Then you get a small Limitation to reflect that it can only make you invisible (which is it's own Power) and has no range. That's insane! Expecially since you can just spend 20 points and be Invisible to EVERYBODY regardless of their EGO and Mental Defense.

Besides, it states somewhere in that book that you shoudn't use Mental Powers to simulate what is effectively another Power, and you should use that other Power (I think it applies mostly to Mental Illusions, but it should apply equally to Mind Control).

[austenandrews]

Invisibility to Touch could be interpreted as "feels like something else" - in the case where you have, for example, a Chameleon power. That way, if your character is holding up against a wall with his Invisibility, someone who touches him thinks he's a part of the wall.

But it's a bit weird; it overlaps with Shape Shift pretty badly.<BR><BR>
And note that the rules specifically include Chameleon as a variant of Invisibility.

[lucky]

Well, Invis would make you invisible to machines, and machines shouldn't be affected by an SEP Field.

Incredibly expensive, yes; but also very, very powerful. I mean, how many characters are even capable of attacking you when this power is going?
I'm sorry, I should have mentioned these two caveats: I had no intention of making this power work againt machines and this power should absolutely not work in a combat situation.

I was planning on taking the Limitation "Does Not Work Against Machines" and another to reflect the fact that if the character performs an attack action against a target, the psionic effect is immediately broken.

I'm not looking to build anything too über. :)

[lucky]

How is this qualitatively any different than the Shadow "clouding men's minds?" Which I think most people would buy as Invisibility.
Thank you, I was trying to think of more examples of this power from various genres. The Shadow is exactly right, as is a comic-book telepath's ability to hide herself from the crowd (as Professor X does many times in both the X-Men comics and the movies). For those of you familiar with Vampire: the Masquerade, the power of 'Obfuscate' works along similar lines as well.

I think austenandrews argued this better than I could have: I understand that this power brushes up against the boundaries of other Powers (people have mentioned Desolidification and Shapeshift), but if properly explained to a GM I still think that Invisibility would be the best way to create the effect I'm looking for.

For example, Desolidification strikes me as a poor choice because of all the Limitations I'd have to assign to it. I couldn't go through solid objects, or under a door, or even between widely-spaced prison bars. Heck, I couldn't even use it to walk properly down the aisle of a commercial jetliner. :) The only (IMO, extremely narrow) application of this hypothetical Desolidifcation would be to permit the character to walk through a crowd without anyone noticing the sensation of being brushed by.

For such limited cases, "Invisibility to Touch Group" seems more appropriate.

[Super Squirrel]

How is this qualitatively any different than the Shadow "clouding men's minds?" Which I think most people would buy as Invisibility. Lucky's point is that adding Touch to the mix is appropriate. Of course it will have modifiers to make it into a telepathy-based power.

If you want to talk about edge cases where it breaks down, you can do that with any Power construct. Even Mind Control isn't going to work in the case where a person is picked up and flung to the ground, unless you get a really high roll, which doesn't scale in terms of points. At some point you're talking about an "absolute" power, which we all know Hero doesn't do well. Better to focus on the common case and whether a construct simulates the effect.


It sounds like you're arguing from Powers, not SFX. By that logic mind-based invisibility is necessarily Mental Illusions, too, because you're just "making them think they don't see you."No, I'm not arguing from Powers. He is talking about the SEP field. He isn't invisibile to touch because people can in theory touch him.

Okay, the mentalist is standing in the middle of the road. A paper delivery boy is in a hurry to make it back home on his bike. The mentalist doesn't see him coming for whatever reason and obviously the boy doesn't see him. WHAM! Move Through.

What happened? They boy obviously had something happen to him. His bike is wrecked, he was scraped up, papers are very where. An SEP doesn't make touch NOT happen. It makes the person think it was something else. That is clearly not Invisibility. I would rule Mental Illusions Trigger would be the best way to design it for that desired Special Effect. His mind makes him think his bike flipped or something.

[austenandrews]

What happened? They boy obviously had something happen to him. His bike is wrecked, he was scraped up, papers are very where. An SEP doesn't make touch NOT happen. It makes the person think it was something else. That is clearly not Invisibility.
Again, why not? The Shadow doesn't make people not see him, he makes them not realize they've seen him. If you were to hypnotize the person or read his mind, you'd discover that he did see the Shadow. I don't see how this is any different.

The kid rides his bike, slams into the character and wrecks. Without Invisibility v.s. Touch, he would have felt a person at the point of impact. He'd wonder why he felt someone when nobody was there (assuming the character is also Invisible to sight, etc.). With Invisibility v.s. Touch, he doesn't. He wonders why the heck he crashed when he didn't even feel anything at the point of impact.

Furthermore, the character can then climb onto the kid's shoulders and the kid won't feel it. He'll wonder why he feels so weighed down, but he won't feel the character sitting on him.

Invisibility v.s. Touch doesn't imply Desol effects any more than Invisibility v.s. Sight implies immunity to Flash or lasers. And it's just one component of the power that lucky is describing.

[lucky]

The choice of special effect is very important. What you have described is mind control, not invisibility. You can be percieved but you demand that the target ignore you.
No disrespect intended, but isn't that splitting hairs? Whether the character is bending light, employing psionic suggestion or über stealth skills, the net result is what's important, right?


A chracter is always aware of his own body movements, invisibility does not block that. Thus, if he tries to move through an area where you are, and you are physically present, then you stop his motion. He knows something has stopped his motion.
No, s/he won't, that's one of the beautiful side effects of telepathic invisibility (as seen in genre texts): those affected will subconsciously 'explain away' the character's presence and will move around the character, stop short of bumping into them, etc.


since a person with mental defense would, logically, be less susceptable to your invisibility than a 'normal'. Xavier, from the X-men, for instance should not be subject to your invisibility.. unless your psychic character is supposed to be more powerful that him.
See, this is an interesting conundrum. Could a Limitation like "Does Not Affect Mentalists With More Active Points In Mental Powers Than The PC" work?

[Super Squirrel]

Again, why not? The Shadow doesn't make people not see him, he makes them not realize they've seen him. If you were to hypnotize the person or read his mind, you'd discover that he did see the Shadow. I don't see how this is any different.

The kid rides his bike, slams into the character and wrecks. Without Invisibility v.s. Touch, he would have felt a person at the point of impact. He'd wonder why he felt someone when nobody was there (assuming the character is also Invisible to sight, etc.). With Invisibility v.s. Touch, he doesn't. He wonders why the heck he crashed when he didn't even feel anything at the point of impact.
You aren't getting it. The bike hit Shadow. He had a crash. He felt the crash. That isn't invisibility. If he is percieving it as something other than it was. That is Images or Mental Illusions.

[Dust Raven]

You aren't getting it. The bike hit Shadow. He had a crash. He felt the crash. That isn't invisibility. If he is percieving it as something other than it was. That is Images or Mental Illusions.
I agree with this, but how does that negate Invisibility to Touch?

Invisible to Touch doesn't have to cause the subject of an impact to think the impact didn't happen or was caused by something else, it just confuses the subject, as he can't tell what happend. He just knows he crashed. He didn't feel the impact, just the stopping of motion and the sudden pain (if any).

Of course, in the source material this didn't happen. Then again, the guy with psionic invisibility never stood in the middle of the street where he could get hit by some bozo on a bike either. He usually keeps out of the way and makes an effort not to run into people or have people run into him. The fact that he succeeds could be the SFX of Invisible to Touch (to erase away those moments where he does brush past someone, but not when he shoves his way past or hits someone).

[Just A Guy Name]

Curiosities such as these is what convinced me that Invisibility was just a special case of Desolidification.

[Dust Raven]

Naw... Desolidification is just a special case of a really really high DCV. :D

[lucky]

Okay, the mentalist is standing in the middle of the road. A paper delivery boy is in a hurry to make it back home on his bike. The mentalist doesn't see him coming for whatever reason and obviously the boy doesn't see him. WHAM! Move Through.
Ah, no... see, this situation wouldn't occur. Because of the way the power works, the paperboy does "see" the character, it just doesn't register. So he'd swerve his bike out of the way and rationalize his decision by "filling in" the memory of a pothole or a squirrel in the road or whatever. If anyone asked him why he'd suddenly turned his bike, he'd present one of these explanations, because that's what he remembers.

If anything, the power might start to break down if the paperboy were to be interrogated (say, by the police or a supervillain or whatever). For instance, if presented with the evidence that no-one else saw the squirrel or that there are no potholes on that street, the paperboy would be extremely confused.

[Mike W]

Lucky, this is why I keep coming back to Mind Control instead of invisibility. Even though it is expensive, I just think it is the right way to build the power.

[austenandrews]

Lucky, this is why I keep coming back to Mind Control instead of invisibility. Even though it is expensive, I just think it is the right way to build the power.
It depends on the circumstances. Reason from effects: If this is a game about telepaths, with complex psychic interactions, Invisibility may not be the right answer. If this is a standard Champs game where every new character has a radically different power set, Invisibility probably is the right answer, especially in terms of cost-to-benefit. (I confess, it's a minor peeve of mine when GMs overcharge for a modest ability based on some way-overthought rationale.)

[Citizen Keen]

I'm beginning to change my opinion. I think this power could be built along the following lines:

Invisibility (to whichever senses you felt necessary), Doesn't Work Against Machine-Class Minds and Cameras, Doesn't Work in Combat / When Character With Power Directly Interacts with Other Characters, Doesn't Work Against Characters With Ego Greater Than 30 or With a Mental Awareness Granting POwer With Active Points Greater than 40 (or whatever).

[Mike W]

Except that this is NOT a minor ability if it is built according to the book/source material. Plus, I am reasoning from effect, that's why I don't think you can build this as invisibility - because invisibility won't make people go around you, which this power should do. Not only that, but with invis, you still can know someone is in the area and try and drop an AOE on them. You shouldn't be able to do that with this power. Quite frankly, when an SEP field is in effect, you can't even ACT against whatever is generating the field. The ONLY thing you can do is avoid it. And that, to me, is a major ability, not a minor one since a properly functioning SEP field would prevent almost anyone from attacking you until you attacked them first. Even if you shot the guy standing next to me, if your SEP field is working properly I would STILL ignore you, because you're still someone else's problem(even if that someone else is my best friend) until you actually come after me.

[Frenchman]

Ah, no... see, this situation wouldn't occur. Because of the way the power works, the paperboy does "see" the character, it just doesn't register. So he'd swerve his bike out of the way and rationalize his decision by "filling in" the memory of a pothole or a squirrel in the road or whatever. If anyone asked him why he'd suddenly turned his bike, he'd present one of these explanations, because that's what he remembers.

If anything, the power might start to break down if the paperboy were to be interrogated (say, by the police or a supervillain or whatever). For instance, if presented with the evidence that no-one else saw the squirrel or that there are no potholes on that street, the paperboy would be extremely confused.I don't think it would even get that far. Most people wouldn't invent a memory if they didn't have to, and it is difficult to find a situation where someone couldn't do something just 'cuz I felt like it.' The kid would have swerved his bike because he is a kid, and kids like to make their bike swerve and do figure-8s because it's more interesting than going in a straight line. The interrogators wouldn't get anything more out of him than you would if you went up to a random child on a playground and demanded to know why they chose the red ball instead of the yellow one.

[Super Squirrel]

Okay, if he goes around the person it isn't Invisibility at all. You could use Desolidification in the same way that Desolid can be used to escape shackles. Desolid, Only for Making People move around you.

[GaryB]

You're all assuming the person is also invisible to sight group as well. What if the person is just invisible to touch group in general?

As I said really really briefly before, it would akin to being frictionless.

I've never had a PC take invis to touch group before in one of my games, but if I had to, it would be sort of like Desolid, but not really. Desolid has some great advantages to it that you just can't get anywhere else. Such as needing a power advantage to actually effect a desolid character with an attack (unless of course the Desolid is built to not protect against attacks). Invis vs Touch cannot allow you to pass through objects nor even through tiny cracks. You still carry the same mass and size (unless of course you can also shape shift) when you are Invis vs Touch.

The way I look at it. When you are immune vs Sight Group, people cannot target you in a normal fashion, giving you an advantage. Even if people know where you are generally they suffer OCV penalties when hitting you. Your power effects can still be seen when you attack, and there are still other ways of detecting you.

Invis vs Touch then should give some advantages and disadvantages like any other form of invis. But not enough to outshine Desolid and not even touch upon changing the actual mind of the character.

So if a character was frictionless, as I think Invis vs Touch would do I would allow the following.

Without Fringe
1) Cannot be grabbed by STR based attacks (including TK, unless it effects pourous objects as well) if the power has no fringe. (Think of a greased pig effect). Target can still be entrangled normally.
2) Cannot using clinging powers nor can s/he be clung to with the clinging power.
3) Cannot grab onto (or hold) any objects, wear any objects (clothes) and cannot access any foci. The exception is the focus that generates the Invis vs Touch.
4) Can still be attacked normally by any other attack.

With Fringe
1) +4 DCV vs Grabs by any STR Based attacks (Including TK as above).
2) Can use clinging to 1/2 effect, and the same with being clung onto.
3) Still cannot use objects normally, or must make a STR roll or DEX roll to hold onto any items each phase. Including accessable foci. Of course, the focus that generates the power can still be used.
4) Can still be attacked normally by other means.

[Mike W]

GaryB:

I think we're arguing two different threads here. You're arguing if Invisibility to Touch is possible(which I would agree with) but the original question asked if invis to touch would be the way to build a particular power(which, based on the source material I would say no).

[GaryB]

GaryB:

I think we're arguing two different threads here. You're arguing if Invisibility to Touch is possible(which I would agree with) but the original question asked if invis to touch would be the way to build a particular power(which, based on the source material I would say no).

Yes. I understand what the original post is stating. The book specifically states why Invis vs Touch should be built another way, I'm just...hypothetically...if I had to allow it, thats how I'd implement it.

Desolid has it's own set of advantages, and even mechanics. Why can't Invis vs Touch work like I suggested? It doesn't simulate any other power really. Sure, you can lop a bunch of limitations of Desolid and produce the same thing, but why would you want to?

I'm directly countering the statement made in the book about the subject (hypothetically), which is still on target with the thread. Why can't Invis vs Touch be built? People are looking at the application of Invis vs Touch wrongly. It seems to me that the angle people approach it as, is that the character is immune to being effected by the touch sense (ie: Feels like nothing is there), which would negate the sense of mass and girth (which Desolid does). Instead, I take if from the angle that mass and girth PLUS tangibility are still there. It doesn't really make them immune from being percieved by touch, it gives them instead certain advantages from being effected by touch that Desolid does not (at least without completely mashing down any usefulness Desolid has).

Sure you can make Desolid vs Grabs Only. But it's all advantage there. And it forces people to buy Effects Desolid on strength or whatever grab maneuver in order to make an effective grab. Still an advantage since you are causing people to have the power advantage in place to effect them. But no disadvantage otherwise.

With what I suggested, you are coupled with advantage and disadvantage for a particular situation. Grabbing.

Sense powers, and powers that effect senses are a strange lot. Each one can almost be used to simulate another. For example, Images can still be used to hide the presence of a character as Invisibility could. But then again, so can shapeshifting. Whats the difference? The underlying mechanic.

* Invisible vs Sight - Cannot target, imposes penalties outright to OCV even when people guess. Carries disadvantage of attacks not being invisible unless bought with a power advantage.
* Images vs Sight - Perception rolls can be used to percieve the images as images and thus negating the advantage. Has a ranged advantage that can still be used around the player. Can't move the illusion without making a drastic change.
* Shapeshift vs Sight - Can look like other objects or people. Breaking the effect takes a little more insight than Images, but perception can still break the shapeshift illusion.
* Mental Illusions - Everything else but me exists. More like a single target sense modifier. Effects one person into ignoring you.

Which is the best way to be invisible to sight? It depends on the mechanic you want to use.

Now Vs. Touch we can:

* Mental Illusions - You can't touch me. I am intangible. Breakout rolls negate the effect.
* Shapeshift vs Touch - I feel like something else, perhaps nothing at all? Perception rolls can negate the effect.
* Images vs Touch - I'm within my own illusion, yet you cannot feel me there. Perception rolls used to negate the effect.
* Desolid - You plainly cannot touch me, unless you have a power advantage.

And of course:

* Invisible vs Touch - Your touch sense cannot register me. Can still be attacked and damaged without any particular advantage on the attackers part.

What am I showing here? I think Invisibility vs Touch can be allowed despite what the book says. It looks like I can build it many different ways. But it depends on the underlying mechanic I want to use. Normally it would allow no particular advantage other than they cannot be percieved by the touch sense.

If I had to make examples of Invisibility vs Touch, they would look similar to Desolid (Liquidy Form or Frictionless), but would have none of the advantages Desolid has and would still carry the disadvantage that the character cannot effect objects, nor could they go through them, or even through small cracks. They still have mass and size to contend with. Simply, the person cannot be perceived by the touch sense. No more than that.

The frictionless thing, looking back at it seems silly now. ;)

Ugh...I go now.

[Sean Waters]

Invisibility to touch can easily be misconstrued, usually because more is attributed tot he power than is granted by the power - you lose your sense of balance or whatever. The same problem appurtains to darkness to touch too.

I think if someone was invisible to touch it would simply mean (as with any other sense) they could not be detected with that sense.

Someone alreasdy mentioned 'super pick-pocketing', but you could also use it whenever the sense of touch was used - by a person or machine - to detect someone. I might allow it for a power that allowed you to leave no footprints (seems less cludgy than the standard 'gliding' fix), or to avoid setting off pressure plates (even if you have got 8 levels of density increase).

The point is the applicability would be very limited. If you hit someone when you have this power turned on, they will feel it, as you are applying force, not touch - it doesn't prevent paini (a touch flash might....)

If someone tries to grab you I would give them a penalty to OCV as grabs/wrestling/judo do rely on sensing the movement of an opponent at least as much as looking at what they are doing, but it would not prevent you being grabbed or held.

If you were in a dark room you could feel your opponent but they wouldn't feel you feeling them. They could find you by clapping their hands and stopping when they don't touch each other, but that would be far harder.

Invisibility to touch is NOT a power that should not be, it is a power that probably doesn't suit many applications.

On the other hand it is ideal for the SEP field. If, despite everything, you are confronted with the unassailable fact that there is something there (i.e. you can't get out of the cricket match because there is a spaceship you didn't notice in the way), i.e. if you are forced to notice it, you do.

Invisibility (limitation: doesn't work against opponents who noticve the invisible thing through luck, deduction or in some other way becoming aware of it -1/2)

[Citizen Keen]

Changed my mind back. Must've been tired.

Mike W is right. An SEP filed affects the mind in a very fundamental way that Invis doesn't.

If I land my SEP Field spaceship in the middle of a little-league soccer match, taking up 60% of the field, the ref and the players and the parents will suddenly decide that they don't want to play. They will make up a reason to leave the field, since they can no longer play soccer (because the ship takes up the field). It's not just that they don't know it's there, they will go far out of their way to not interact with it.

If it's a military-strength SEP field, the ship could probably land on one of the soccer players, crushing him, and his parents would still think that it's "Somebody Else's Problem". SEP Fields don't just make you invisible - they make the characters not even think about you.

If I'm invisible to sight group, and I'm attacked, I'll know I'm being attacked. I'll hear the guy, feel the guy, and if he's close enough, maybe smell him, and I'll see his effects on the real world. If a character has Invis versus ALL senses, but some mystic sensei informs me I'm about to be attacked by a character I can't sense, I'll know he's there. I'll try to defend myself. When he picks up a vase to throw at me, I'll start shooting in the vicinity of the vase. I don't have to sense someone to know they're there. An SEP field means the targets DON'T KNOW you're there. You alter their mind. You're not necessarily invisible, they just don't think about you. Your subconscious detects the person because you will go out of your way to not interact with them, but you don't think about them. Definitely mind control.

I agree that Invis versus Touch can be made (although I don't agree with Gary B on all of its effects), but I whole-heartedly disagree with the idea to use it as the power to build an SEP field.

[austenandrews]

Okay, if he goes around the person it isn't Invisibility at all.
I don't think anyone is claiming that Invisibility makes you immune to physical contact. Just immune to being perceived. If you want to stand in the middle of oncoming traffic and not get hit, you'll need something like Desol. But walking down a sidewalk, it's enough to assume that pedestrians don't knock each other down as a matter of course. Therefore the character can walk down the sidewalk and not have a bicycle plow into him. The only effect required is that people psychically reject the presence of the character - that is, they react as if they don't perceive him (even if they physically interact with him). Invisibility doesn't literally mean they don't see him, any more than Combat Luck literally means a character is bulletproof.

Furthermore, if the GM decides that something unusual does happen and a bike plows into the character, Invisibility defines how the kid psychically rejects the fact that he ran into Captain SEP. Instead he tries to figure out some other explanation.

I didn't get the impression lucky was literally talking about landing a giant spaceship in a crowded park and having it be ignored. In any case it's a bit of a stretch to go to the source material on this one, unless the GM is willing to allow illogical things to happen just because they're funny.

[Lightray]

Sense-Affecting Powers apparently bring out a lot of confusion.

Invisibility has only one effect in the game: other characters cannot sense the invisible character, using the sense affected.

It has no effect on whether other characters think or notice the invisible character is there.

If you want to know when Invisibility To Touch is appropriate, consider a case where someone has Ranged Touch as a sense. If the Ranged Touch can sense the invisible character, then that's not Invisibility. If the Ranged Touch cannot sense the invisible character, then that is Invisibility.

[Citizen Keen]

unless the GM is willing to allow illogical things to happen just because they're funny.

Actually, that's the entire point of the SEP Field - it's illogical yet funny. As is all Douglas Adams material. That's the point of the SEP Field - it's taking everyday British attitudes and turning them into technologies. I mean, this is a world where people travel via Improbability Drive.

If a character is sitting in a chair with an SEP Field, the targets won't try to sit there and then justify why they can't. They'll justify why they never wanted to sit in the chair in the first place. They'll decide they have a bad back and need to stay standing, or remember that that chair squeaks. That's what an SEP Field does.

[Kristopher]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I'd never allow Invisibility vs Touch to function as anything other than a gimmick.

Unless you're actually Desolid, you're perceivable as a physical object simply because you occupy mass and space.

Unless you use Mind Control or Mental Illusions, you don't fool anybody.

[austenandrews]

Actually, that's the entire point of the SEP Field - it's illogical yet funny. As is all Douglas Adams material. That's the point of the SEP Field - it's taking everyday British attitudes and turning them into technologies. I mean, this is a world where people travel via Improbability Drive.
Which is why I brought it up. I assume lucky is building an actual character in a real game, where some modicum of logic and balance is desired. If you want to stay true to the source material, you're simulating absurdity on a cosmic scale that's infeasible (in terms of points) for your average PC. Either that, or you must have the universe conspire in the joke. If the GM wants to rule that SEP only requires EGO or greater of Mind Control effect because no one wants the boat to be rocked (which is basically the original gag) then you've got a reasonable option to use Mind Control. Otherwise you have to settle for simulating the effect, or the character won't have any points left for anything else.

[OddHat]

Ever woken up with a hand asleep? Or had you arm wrenche hard enough that you lost fwwling in your hands? I see Inviibility to Touch as working that simply; you press your hand against something, your arm stops moving, but you can't feel what you're touching.

The whole People Bump Into Me / Don't Bump Into Me thing I see as a special effect.

[Sean Waters]

SEP field is definitely not mental illusions/mind control. It takes no consideration of the strength of your willpower, it is like an optical illusion: you can not see what it really is until you have it pointed out to you, or if you've seent he trick before. Definitely invisibility with a custom 'NND' type limitation and an activation roll (albeit a high one - sometimes you notice the thing accidentally - out of the corner of your eye....)

There's nothing wrong with invisibility to touch, it just isn't very useful, like invisibilty to taste. Don't get yourself muddled with the mass/volume thing, just think of the base effect - if you touch it do you detect it? Wrapping your arms around it is something different entirely - your own kinesthetic sense isn't fooled - you know your arms are not coming together.

As to the mass thing, well, matter of taste, but if someone with invisibilty to touch jumps on your head you may not realise they are there, but you do know your knees are buckling. Kinesthetic sense again. No one suggest invisibilty to that, eh? And whoever mentioned invisibilty to memory had better edit theior post to put lots more smileys in to show it was just a joke.

[Mike W]

I don't see how you can use Invisibility to simulate an SEP since the SEP does things that Invisibility is not capable of doing. It has to be based on a mental power because nothing else is capable of encompassing the effects. And 15 dice or so would be enough to affect any human character regardless of willpower/EGO. Ultimately, I think this may be one of those, we have to agree to disagree on things because this conversation hasn't really gone anywhere the last couple of exchanges.

[Just A Guy Name]

Hmm. Not to stray far OT: What's the standard ruling on Invisibility (Sight) vs light-based attacks? Is there a consensus opinion?

[OddHat]

Hmm. Not to stray far OT: What's the standard ruling on Invisibility (Sight) vs light-based attacks? Is there a consensus opinion?

If you want your invisibility to protect you from lasers, buy defenses to simulate that. ;)

[Just A Guy Name]

If you want your invisibility to protect you from lasers, buy defenses to simulate that. ;)Thanks, OH. Just to be clear though: Is that the assumption most gamers go by? It does seem to represent the philosophy of design in 5E (don't have 5ER), but I can't seem to find an actual ruling to confirm it.

[Dust Raven]

And all this time I thought a SEP field was a plot device used to explain why an Earthman and an alien can jump on board a spaceship and take off in the middle of a cricket game. It's no more a Power than a hyperintelligent shade of blue is an actual character or race, and have just as much chance of writeing one up as you would the other.

If you wanted to try, it really depends on exactly what you wanted it to do. If you just want to be unnoticed, Invisible works just fine. If you wanted to cause other people to avoid you, in addition to not seeing you, combine Invisible with Images (something that people would walk around or avoid). You could also use Mind Control with LOTS of dice and a bit of area, but don't lose track of the effect. Tecnically you can buy Mind Control to make people fall down or move across the room, but a Martial Throw can work just as good.

[Lightray]

Thanks, OH. Just to be clear though: Is that the assumption most gamers go by? It does seem to represent the philosophy of design in 5E (don't have 5ER), but I can't seem to find an actual ruling to confirm it.
The clue to the "actual ruling" is in the write-up of the Invisibility power - which has absolutely no mention of protecting you from any damage whatsoever.

Therefore, you may conclude that Invisibility will protect you from no damage whatsoever. Be it light, lasers, or otherwise.

[Just A Guy Name]

Therefore, you may conclude that Invisibility will protect you from no damage whatsoever. Be it light, lasers, or otherwise.Good enough. Then there really should not be much consternation over Invis (Touch). Working from the analogue of Sight, Touch Invis. could be simulated with a tweaked form of Desolid (and in fact, that is my preferred method), but it seems that the standard assumption (that it only affects perception) means that the text saying that it should normally be built as Desolid, is incorrect.

[Super Squirrel]

See, thin thing is AA, I think this is a beautiful example of how to use Mental Illusions.


Cosmetic changes to settings includes: changing colors; making friends look like (but not act like) enemies; minor changes to a person's or object's appearance.

Instead of seeing Lucky's character, you see some random person he would want to go around. That's PERFECT and it is cheaper too. :)

[austenandrews]

Instead of seeing Lucky's character, you see some random person he would want to go around. That's PERFECT and it is cheaper too. :)
Depends. With Invisibility you're invisible to everyone, period. With Mental Illusions you've got to consider AE, IPE and # of dice, all sufficient to affect, say, a crowded city intersection or hotel lobby, plus enemies who may have higher-than-average EGO.

If you want to go the "looks like something else" route, I'd probably use Shape Shift instead. You get the "affects everyone, period" advantage of Invisibility plus it's cheaper and can't be seen through like Images.

[OddHat]

I'd do a SEP effect as Invisibility to Sight, Sound, Touch, Not While Attacking (-1/2). Maybe with another limit or two reflecting the other ways of seeing through it (May be Seen By Those Who Know It Is There, etc). The issue of "Why don't people bump into it" seems like a special effect. People just don't notice bumping into the Invisible-to-touch thing for the same reason that superspeed doesn't set your clothes on fire; that's how it works in that genre.

[Solomon]

I was thinking invisibility to touch would be a great ability for a pickpocket. The mark never even knows you have your hand in his pocket. :)

Or for a truly forgettable lover. "Oh! You're done already?"

More seriously, and on a tanget to this thread - would "Invisible to touch" be appropriate for a martial artist whose attacks are so fast and accurate his foes doesn't even immediatly realise he's been hit?

[OddHat]

Or for a truly forgettable lover. "Oh! You're done already?"

More seriously, and on a tanget to this thread - would "Invisible to touch" be appropriate for a martial artist whose attacks are so fast and accurate his foes doesn't even immediatly realise he's been hit?

Judging from Steve's comments on Invisible extra limbs, I'd say that this would be better handled with IPE for STR.

[Solomon]

Judging from Steve's comments on Invisible extra limbs, I'd say that this would be better handled with IPE for STR.

That was what I was thinking about, actually - invisible power, not invisible attacker. :o

[WhammeWhamme]

Well, i was struck by a character concept that could take Invisibility to Touch (at least, I assume so, since the bruise came outta nowhere...).


A ghost. Sort of. He's not intangible, because if you wave your hand through him, it hurts him. If you put him in a room he can't 'tunnel' out of, he's stuck. He's a physical being, he just doesn't have enough substance to be felt (well, you get the 'cold, chill' feeling, but that's hot/cold sense).

Would this be appropriate for invisibility to Touch?

[robertg97]

I tend to see Invisibility to Touch as someone running there hand across the the char not feeling anything, but still being subject to newtonian physics i.e. application of force e.g you push the char you dont feel it but they are still affected by it . while desolid means you are not subject to force (unless bought with affects desolid).

[dmjalund]

you forgot to buy Invisibility to Thread Necromancy

[Ice9]

Personally, I think Invisibility to Touch makes sense in the right circumstances. And while not the only way to represent this ability, it is a valid way to do so.

However, I'll note that the Mental Illusions (feels more appropriate than Mind Control to me) route does not have to be hideously expensive. Consider:
Nowhere Man - Mental Illusions 1d6, Cumulative (96 points; +1 1/2), Penetrating (+1/4), Reduced END (0 END; +1/2), Continuous (+1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Area of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Megascale (1" = 1km; +1), 26 active points; Set Effect ("I'm not here, anything I do was a coincidence or didn't happen"; -1/2), 17 real points.

Now this is potentially an extremely potent ability - in fact, I would probably require more significant limitations if someone wanted to use this in a game. But it's certainly affordable. And while it doesn't quite cover a ship appearing suddenly (it will be at least 2 turns before even an average person is affected), it covers movement at any normal speed just fine because of the huge area.

Incidentally, I wouldn't quite call this cheese yet. Bump the Penetrating to x2+ and the Megascale to planetary, and it most certainly is. But in it's current form, it is defeatable (with difficulty), suitable for a "puzzle villain" as long as they aren't very potent in other aspects.

[randian]

I use invisibility to touch, not to prevent you from feeling me punch you, but to prevent things like pressure plates in a floor or certain kinds of motion detectors from triggering alarms/traps. Invisibility to touch doesn't prevent sand from showing your footprints any more than invisibility to sight prevents me from seeing an object move when you pick it up.

[CrosshairCollie]

I use invisibility to touch, not to prevent you from feeling me punch you, but to prevent things like pressure plates in a floor or certain kinds of motion detectors from triggering alarms/traps. Invisibility to touch doesn't prevent sand from showing your footprints any more than invisibility to sight prevents me from seeing an object move when you pick it up.

I agree, though in general Invisibility to Touch is in the 'yeah, you CAN do it, but I can't imagine why you would' category.

[Ternaugh]

I agree, though in general Invisibility to Touch is in the 'yeah, you CAN do it, but I can't imagine why you would' category.

Maybe they're Genesis fans.

JoeG

[CrosshairCollie]

Maybe they're Genesis fans.

JoeG

*slap*