2006 Schedule Blurbs

[Steve Long]

Since Ben's out of the office, I'm posting the 2006 schedule blurbs here as a "preview" before he posts them on the Our Products page. As usual, many things are subject to change. ;)

An "Undetermined" author should be read as "I have someone in mind but haven't finalized things to the point where I'm willing to list his/her/its/their name yet."


Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Every Fantasy campaign needs adversaries to challenge the PCs, whether those adversaries are the darkest-hearted of Evil beings, greedy dragons, or duplicitous nobles bent on using the heroes for their own gain. Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers details dozens of enemies for Fantasy Hero. Although the enemies it features are taken from Hero’s “Turakian Age” setting, they’re suitable for almost any Fantasy campaign.
Author: Steven S. Long
Tentative Release Date: Early 2006

The Ultimate Mentalist: Mental and psychic powers, and the characters who use them, appear in just about every adventure genre in some form. The Ultimate Mentalist takes a thorough, detailed look at the HERO System’s rules for mental and psychic abilities. It includes expanded discussion of the Mental Powers; new and optional rules, rules expansions, and rules variants for psionics; advice for creating, running, and GMing mentalists; special rules for Mental Combat; sample mentalist powers and abilities; and more.
Author: Steven S. Long
Tentative Release Date: Early 2006


Stronghold: When you catch a supervillain, where do you put him? In Stronghold, of course! The Stronghold sourcebook takes an in-depth look at this special prison, designed exclusively for holding superhuman criminals. In addition to maps of the prison, information about Stronghold’s daily routine and technology, and data on the fascinating people who make the whole place run smoothly, the book contains a reworking of the classic Escape From Stronghold scenario that pits your heroes against a horde of supervillains on a jailbreak!
Author: Allen Thomas
Tentative Release Date: Early 2006

Golden Age Champions: Use your superpowers to smash the Nazi menace and win the war for the Allies in Golden Age Champions, a subgenre book for Champions focusing on the Golden Age of comic books when life was simpler but the need for heroes was even stronger than today. GAC includes not only a review of the events of World War II (both in real life and in the Champions Universe), but character sheets for dozens of villains, NPC heroes, and other prominent characters. It also discusses how to run Golden Age games and create characters appropriate for them.
Author: Darren Watts
Tentative Release Date: Early 2006

Psychic Wars: In the near future, a few humans begin to developing strange psionic powers. Soon, a shadow war begins, as competing groups of psychics fight each other, the government, and other adversaries for power... or simply to remain free to decide their own destinies. Psychic Wars describes this evocative and dangerous campaign/setting for STAR HERO, with guidelines for how psychic powers work, what sort of psychic powers characters can have, the Psychic Wars being fought under the nose of unsuspecting humanity, and how to adapt the Psychic Wars to a wide variety of settings and genres (including Champions, Dark Champions, and Fantasy Hero).
Author: Allen Thomas
Tentative Release Date: Early 2006

The Celtic Bestiary: The legends and mythology of Ireland, Scotland, Britain and other northern European land describe a vast panoply of faeries, giants, monsters, and other bogeys. The Celtic Bestiary describes these fascinating creatures in HERO System terms, with character sheets for over a hundred different beings from myth and folklore.
Author: Steven S. Long
Tentative Release Date: Mid 2006

Thrilling Places: Pulp adventurers need places to adventure in! Thrilling Places provides them, with detailed information about exotic and amazing locations around the world for Pulp Hero characters to visit and explore: lost civilizations, secret islands, hidden temples, and many more.
Author: Undetermined
Tentative Release Date: Mid 2006

Tuala Morn: Tuala Morn is a pseudo-Celtic fantasy realm of bold warriors, wise wizards, capricious faeries, crafty dragons, and a thousand different types of adventure! Travel the fields, forests, and mountains of the Ten Kingdoms in search of wonder and excitement.
In Dunrioga, the seat of the High King has sat empty for ten long years since the death of Davaine the Strong. While his queen Nuala tries to maintain a regency for their son, young Aillin, no one unites the people against the threat of Vulkring raiders from the north, or brings a halt to the longstanding feud between Crogher of Conhaile and Sitric of Seanclough. And without a High King, nothing stems the tide of the ambition of the Cormac of Mar Cormac, who wants a rulership he does not deserve and would sacrifice all the world to obtain it.
As if such conflicts were not enough, religious strife besets the land. As the druids who worship the Dronnach Lanva, the Hundred Children, continue to propitiate the spirits of stream and wood, the priests of the Golden Temple cry the ascendancy of their strange faith to the skies, seeking to win converts to their shrines. Some wise men whisper that such disputes on Earth must surely mirror a dispute in the heavens, and if the matter cannot be resolved, then surely only the dark gods of the witches will remain to rule over the Tualans.
Even worse, there are those who claim that these dark gods, or something akin to them, has already cast its shadow over the land. Of the source and power of this shadow, they know not, but its intentions are surely evil. Prophecy foretells that unless a true hero finds the Basilisk Orb, fabled talisman of the ancient wizard Coruch Crotha, the High King’s realm will fall to dust and ashes.
Are you that hero?
Author: Steven S. Long
Tentative Release Date: Mid 2006

Pulp Resource Guide: The world of the 1920s and ’30s is a very different one from our own: different people, different vehicles, different weapons, different technology. The Pulp Resource Guide picks up where Pulp Hero left off in describing these things for your games. It provides more information and HERO System write-ups for Pulp-era cars, planes, guns, gadgets, and other resources, all ready for immediate use in your campaign.
Author: Undetermined
Tentative Release Date: Mid 2006

The Ultimate Skill: The latest book in Hero Games’s Ultimate line takes an in-depth look at Skills. In addition to expanded and alternate rules for learning, using, and modifying Skills, it contains detailed information about every Skill in the game, making it a resource unparalleled in the world of roleplaying games. If you want to know the modifiers for picking a double-wafer lock (or even what one is), bypassing a fingerprint analyzer, navigating by the stars, living off the land, tracking a fearsome monster, bribing a city guard, or anything else that has to do with a Skill, The Ultimate Skill will tell you all about it. The product of hundreds of hours’ and thousands of dollars’ worth of research, The Ultimate Skill will bring new levels of detail, excitement, and fun to your game.
Author: Steven S. Long
Tentative Release Date: Mid 2006

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Inject new life into your Champions campaign with new villains! This enemies book features enough new adversaries to enliven any GM’s game: the Tiger Squad, superheroes of China who may become adversaries of your PCs for political reasons; the body-warping fiend Fleshtone; the Curse, victim and carrier of an ancient Egyptian malediction; the Lemurian brick Leviathan; and dozens more.
Author: Steven S. Long, et al.
Tentative Release Date: Mid-late 2006

Horror Hero: The HERO System ventures into the realms of terror, dread, and darkness with Horror Hero, a genre book covering all aspects of the Horror genre for gaming. Whether your characters want to hunt monsters infesting the alleys and sewers of the city, experience the intense fear of being trapped in a deserted house with a crazed killer, try to hold back Things From Beyond that threaten Earth, or protect their souls from the perils of Hell, Horror Hero has everything you need!
Author: Undetermined
Tentative Release Date: Late 2006

Danger Zones: The world of Dark Champions is a dangerous one, filled with places where strife, war, and brutality are unavoidable facts of life. Danger Zones takes you to flash points of conflict around the world — places like central Africa, the Balkans, Colombia, the Middle East, and Kashmir, where characters may find themselves plunged into the middle of battles, diplomatic negotiations, or espionage that could end a war... or start one.
Authors: Steven S. Long, Jason Walters
Tentative Release Date: Late 2006

Champions Universe Update: It’s been several years since Hero Games published Champions Universe, so it’s time to take a look at what’s been going on in the premiere setting of superhero gaming since then. This book will feature updated and expanded character sheets for major heroes and villains, character sheets for some prominent heroes not yet described, and plenty of details about what’s going on these days in the Champions Universe.
Authors: Darren Watts, Steven S. Long
Tentative Release Date: Late 2006

The Underworld Sourcebook: A complete reference to crime — organized and otherwise — for Dark Champions and other modern-day genres. In addition to extensive information about the Mafia, the yakuza, the triads, and many other organized crime groups, The Underworld Sourcebook focuses on many types of crime and criminals relevant to gaming campaigns: high-tech robbery crews; serial killers; forgers; and more.
Author: Steven S. Long
Tentative Release Date: Late 2006

[Edsel]

Looks like a bunch of really neat stuff! I guess I'll have to continue my practice of buying everything Hero releases. :thumbup:

Danger Zone, Horror Hero and The Underworld Sourcebook are the ones that most interest me since I run our Dark Champions games and horror is a part of the campaign. I know that our Fantasy GM (Eosin) is really looking forward to the Tuala Morn campaign setting.

[JohnTaber]

GREAT! Thanks Steve.

Based on Steve's blurbs here are my "likelyhoods" of buying these products. Ones NOT on my list will be ones I do not consider buying at all at this time.

Ultimate Mentalist - Somewhat likely. I have the old version...will I need this?
Psychic Wars - Not likely.
Ultimate Skill - Very likely.
Horror Hero - Somewhat likely.
Underworld Sourcebook - Very likely. <- Very bummed this one is end of 2006. :(

[Steve Long]

I think you left out Stronghold and the Champions Universe Update.

No idea how that happened, since they're right there in the file, but I've added them back in to the post.

[lgguy]

Looks like an awesome schedule! Here is hoping that Fantasy Primeval and/or the Atlantean Age makes it on the 2007 schedule :) (Galactic Federation would be nice too)

[TheQuestionMan]

A few of TheQuestionMan's favourite things.

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Yes, but why so late? ;)
The Ultimate Mentalist: Maybe, should have some Anime/Magna Stuff.
Stronghold: Maybe, Who is doing the MAPS?
Golden Age Champions: No, not my cup of tea.
Psychic Wars: Maybe, Need authorities reponse to it. Lots of Sub & Meta Plots.
The Celtic Bestiary: Curious, wait and see. Tuala Morn should be before this.
Thrilling Places: Yes, especially if it comes with MAPS?
Tuala Morn: Very curious... hmmm...
Pulp Resource Guide: Yes, but needs a snappier name. Something to suit the setting.
The Ultimate Skill: YES!!!, but 2005 not 2006. Me want now.
Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Yes! Another Enemies Book. Artist Very inmportant here!!!
Horror Hero: No, not my cup of tea I'm afraid.
Danger Zones: Maybe, need more Intel.
Champions Universe Update: Hmmm... my be interesting to see the changes to various Super Hero Teams.
The Underworld Sourcebook: Yes, but I would like to see it sooner.

Cheers

QM

[BlackSword]

Pulp Resource Guide: The world of the 1920s and ’30s is a very different one from our own: different people, different vehicles, different weapons, different technology. The Pulp Resource Guide picks up where Pulp Hero left off in describing these things for your games. It provides more information and HERO System write-ups for Pulp-era cars, planes, guns, gadgets, and other resources, all ready for immediate use in your campaign.
Author: Undetermined
Tentative Release Date: Mid 2006

Really looking forward to this book (and all the other pulp resources). I hope that for vehicles and equipment there is liberal use of art in the book. Also a list of suggested music and artists from the time period for color and background material would be handy.

[Eodin]

Looking at the schedule, here's my purchase thoughts:

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Probably
The Ultimate Mentalist: If it's just updated 4th, probably not. If new stuff, probably so.
Stronghold: Nope
Golden Age Champions: Nope
Psychic Wars: Probably so, as is useful for my Star Hero and Fantasy Hero campaigns as well.
The Celtic Bestiary: Yes
Thrilling Places: Yes
Tuala Morn: Sounds intriguing. Very likely.
Pulp Resource Guide: Yes
The Ultimate Skill: A Definite Yes.
Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Nope
Horror Hero: Nope
Danger Zones: Useful for Espionage etc. Yes.
Champions Universe Update: Nope
The Underworld Sourcebook: Have to look and see.

[SAVeira]

One of the biggest complaints I have with Champions genre products stems from the idea that DoJ produces very little original material. You keep asking fans to continue to purchase the same general material which they have been purchasing for over 20 years: VIPER is just an update of the old Viper book, The Mystic World is just an update of The Ultimate Super-Mage and Mystic Masters, UNTIL is just an expansion of the material in Super Agents, the Bestiary come from 2 prior books, etc. I'm not saying the books do not expand upon older material but for the most part they are not offering new concepts. There seems to be little incentive to purchase a 5E book when you already have a serviceable 4E or 3E version of the same subject sitting on your self.You know that not everyone has copies of these 4E or 3E books that you speak of. If someone has not see it before, it is a new concept to them. Not to mention for some people, they have looking forward to see some old material updated and expanded for 5th Edition.

Anyway, looks like 2006 will be another great year. I think that the Champions Universe Update is very good idea, in fact I hope there is an update every couple of years.

[Susano]

My thoughts:

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Probably not.

The Ultimate Mentalist: Yes.

Stronghold: No.

Golden Age Champions: Yes.

Psychic Wars: Maybe.

The Celtic Bestiary: Yes.

Thrilling Places: Maybe. GURPS had a source book like this that was very well done (which I own).

Tuala Morn: Maybe. I am curious as to the power level. I see such action as being in the 250-350 point range myself.

Pulp Resource Guide: Yes.

The Ultimate Skill: Yes.

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Probably not.

Horror Hero: Yes.

Danger Zones: No.

Champions Universe Update: No.

The Underworld Sourcebook: Possibly.

[Andrew Cermak]

New ideas are where the money is at.

Says a man with no access to any of the relevant sales data. :rolleyes:

[TheImperialKhan]

Please tell me that GAC is going to be serious this time and not tongue-in-cheek as in the first two versions.

[Andrew Cermak]

Says a man who read DoJ's "Announcement" about sales being down and the company going out of business if people didn't start buying books.

You're still operating entirely from ignorance, and being remarkably presumptuous in telling DoJ that they're running their business wrong.

You say books like Galactic Champions are the way to go and books like VIPER and UNTIL aren't, but you can't say how much GC sold compared to the other two, can you?

'Cause if you can, by all means enlighten me.

[SAVeira]

You're still operating entirely from ignorance, and being remarkably presumptuous in telling DoJ that they're running their business wrong.

You say books like Galactic Champions are the way to go and books like VIPER and UNTIL aren't, but you can't say how much GC sold compared to the other two, can you?

'Cause if you can, by all means enlighten me.Very well put.

[megaplayboy]

Well, not to pile on here, but the ironic thing is that first he says that new material is the way to go, then notes that he won't buy "Psychic Wars"(i.e., brand new material), saying "that genre doesn't interest me". Similarly dismissive toward half of the products which are, in fact, not updates of old material but brand new creative product.
Some folks don't know what they want, apparently.

[Greatwyrm]

I guess for me that makes 2 yes and 5 maybe. Not a good sign for DoJ.

And most of my choices are opposite of yours. Is that a better sign?

[vkevlar]

The list:
Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers - not very interested in enemies books, as I wind up solely using my own anyhow. Good for name/costume inspiration, at times.

The Ultimate Mentalist - could be useful, though not entirely sure it warrants a whole book.

Stronghold - see NKN. Would be useful for information on prison operations, however.

Golden Age Champions - I tend to like more end of bronze / iron agey stuff. Golden Age can be useful in a Marshal Law sense though. :)

Psychic Wars - Looking forward to this; new settings are good, new ideas are good.

The Celtic Bestiary - bestiary... meh.

Thrilling Places - maps would be good, society modelling would be good...

Tuala Morn - sounds interesting, though I doubt I'll ever go near running it.

Pulp Resource Guide - I miss Justice, Inc.

The Ultimate Skill - Looking forward to this, but hoping it'll be more "theory and practice". Systems Operation is a prime candidate for some explanation of why it's a skill rather than a KS/PS, when it's usable, etc. Expansion on situational modifiers to skill rolls would be ideal, as well, considering that the current theory I work under is that all skill rolls should always be subject to a situational mod (even if it works out to +0) when in use.

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin - see above for comments on 'enemies' books.

Horror Hero - HERO system does not do Horror well at all, especially in the last incarnation of horror hero. A large part of this is that most horror stories happen to normal people, not super-agents; and in the Hero system, normals have a very tight range of variability (unless they're no longer normals.) There's more there, but ultimate skill combined with normals unbound could go a ways towards fixing that.

Danger Zones - maps, etc, are always fun when properly reusable.

Champions Universe Update - Don't run in the CU, but it's kind of fun to read about. I'm not entirely sure I'll care enough to buy an update to it, but...

The Underworld Sourcebook - This has potential, again as long as it's got theory to back up its practical examples. I want to use books like this more as references for creating my own organizations and operations than to use prebuilt ones, honestly.

As said in earlier posts, new ideas / new sourcebooks / new genres are more attractive to me (long time hero system type) than rehashes or updates of existing books.

[megaplayboy]

I believe if you could read as well as you write you'd see that I was discussing Champions' products: "One of the biggest complaints I have with Champions genre products stems from the idea that DoJ produces very little original material."
my bad--well, I think one of the problems is what we might call "legacy" support--that all of the components of previous CU have to be integrated and updated. So, inevitably, half or more of Champions product is just to fulfill the need to update and republish out of print material. I'd like to see Silver Age Champs before GAC(3rd ed.)--heck, i'd rather see Iron Age Champions or Galactic Champions Companions I & II(one of them containing that frickin' Malvan Ultradreadnought writeup) before GAC(much as I liked the first two GACs). I have no idea how DoJ would get an accurate metric of market demand until they actually release the product, though...

[GestaltBennie]

All depending on the availability of cash, but...

Nobles, Knights, and Necromancers: If I get into an FH game, maybe.
Ultimate Mentalist: The original is probably my least favorite of Steve's 4th ed work. On the other hand, Steve's had a lot more time to think about the issues, so it's a possible.
Stronghold: After DEMON, Allen's Champs stuff is getting a free pass from me.
Golden Age Champions: I expect Darren to blow away previous versions of this book. Darren's got a far better grasp on the GA than I've seen from past authors, so almost certainly.
Psychic Wars: I expect this to be pretty good, though "Scanners Meets X-Files" is not really a concept that really appeals to me.
The Celtic Bestiary: Depends on whether I like Tuala Morn, which I expect to.
Thrilling Places: Absolutely. As an old JI fan, I'll be supporting this line above all others.
Tuala Morn: Of all of Steve's stuff, this is the book that I'm most looking forward to, Pulp Hero excepted.
Pulp Resource Book: Absolutely.
Ultimate Skill: This is almost certainly going to be an industry standard, but I'm not sure I need it. I'll wait and see.
Villians, Vandals and Vermin: Absolutely.
Horror HERO Depends on the author.
Champions Universe Update: Universe development is very dear to my heart, so this is a definite pick.
Danger Zones: If I guess correctly, this'll be a gamer version of "Most Dangerous Places". Given that my local group loves modern/merc gaming, I may pick it up for them.
The Underworld Sourcebook: Almost certain to be useful in my Champs game.
Possible Leatherbound Special Edition: I'll wait and see what this product ends up becoming.

Tuala Morn is my pick for the "if I'm strapped for cash I'm still picking this up" book, with the Champs Universe update as runner-up.

[archermoo]

Says a man who read DoJ's "Announcement" about sales being down and the company going out of business if people didn't start buying books.

Actually, that isn't what the announcement said. It said nothing about the compnay going out of business, except for a reassurance that that isn't what is happening. They simply made a decision to change their previous policy of encouraging people to buy their products from their FLGS and go with a policy that is pretty much the standard for the industry instead. Which is to say, please buy your books from us, especially if you don't have any other good alternative. They also mentioned that the cue for this was a general sales downturn across the industry.

Then lots of people that either have reading comprehension problems or just assume that they know more that the people at the company that are making the announcements went off and started saying that HERO is going out of business, some going so far as to say that they aren't publishing books at all anymore.

Heck, there are quite a few people out there that had been special ordering all of their HERO stuff from their local store, stores that wouldn't order the books for stock. Or even set up a standing order for them. But they kept buying from that not so FLGS because HERO Games had asked them to. So now for some sales HERO gets a larger slice of the pie, and some people that were having problems getting their books have a better alternative. A win-win situation.

[archermoo]

Oh, and as far as purchases go, I don't see anything on either the 2005 or 2006 list that is a reason for me to change my current policy of "1 of everything". ;)

[Mightybec]

Yes, of course, so producing a third Golden Age Champions, a third Stronghold, and a CU Update [not to mention that a large percentage of villains in VVV who will also be pre-existing characters] is the way to go because the new fans outnumber the old ones by such a great margin.

New ideas are where the money is at.
You're related to Eeyore, right?

[lgguy]

I have to agree with Archermoo (except I don't have enough money for 1 of everything :winkgrin: ) Although I understand getting upset with updated material as opposed to all new original material, for some of us (like me), I have only known about HERO for about a year so all of the books are new to me.

I know that the complaint was about Champions material and I am more of a Fantasy/Star Hero guy. But, from reading between the lines in some of Steve's posts, I think that a lot of the Hero Universe stuff like Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, Terran Empire *is* totally new for 5th edition...again at least for Fantasy/Star Hero.

[Mightybec]

From the "Announcement":

"If things keep going the way they are, the blunt truth is that Hero Games won't remain an ongoing concern — it will, sooner or later, grind to a halt. The way things stand right now, sales of our books simply aren't high enough to sustain the company in the long term."
Wasn't that just before the 'So this is what we're gonna change' part?

[archermoo]

From the "Announcement":

"If things keep going the way they are, the blunt truth is that Hero Games won't remain an ongoing concern — it will, sooner or later, grind to a halt. The way things stand right now, sales of our books simply aren't high enough to sustain the company in the long term."

Oooh, oooh, oooh, an out of context quote. I love those.

To clear things up, the message starts with talk about how another gaming company is having trouble, and about the general downturn in sales in the industry. And that while HERO is currently doing well, they can see potential problems down the road if things don't change. Which is the point the above out of context quote comes from.

So, basically, a company staffed with people they like is having problems. Sales of HERO products have gone down, but they are still doing okay. However, if those sales continue going down, there is the potential for problems. Then the other 90% of the announcement goes on to explain what they are doing to head that possibility off. It is called being proactive. Unfortunately it is too hard to write an announcement like that in such a fashion that it is impossible for isolated quotes to be taken out of context.

But hey, feel free to keep quoting things out of context and pretending it means something. It is after all a free country.

Personally, I'm just going to keep buying their stuff and enjoying the excellent job they are doing. I didn't really buy many of the supplements for previous versions of HERO, even though I've been playing since '81. Why? Because I wasn't impressed by the few that I looked at, and I couldn't afford to buy stuff that I wasn't impressed by. So I at least am an "old timer" that is happy they are doing updated versions of some of the older stuff, in addition to the great new stuff that they are putting out.

[Mightybec]

And what does that have to do with the fact that 2.5 of 4 Champions books for next year are rehashes?

Asking fans to buy from the online store doesn't help if the company is not producing new Champions material which the fans want to buy. You can't expect Champions fans to keep buying the same books over and over and over. Only WotC has a large enough audience to get away with that.
Not every Hero Games customer is sitting in a wet pair of depends and telling WWI stories like you are. I've never owned a previous Stronghold book, and would like to see a 5th edition copy of it. See this is how it works. Crusty doesn't buy, Mightybec does. Every hero gamer is not a long time veteran. We were all newbies once.

[Mightybec]

Your point was address by me far above. I see no reason to address it again.
Really? I'll give you a spare stamp, if you wish. :yes:

[Mightybec]

Come on. I know you wanna. :)

[Mightybec]

*picks at a puffy boil while looking at pocket watch*

[Toadmaster]

One of the biggest complaints I have with Champions genre products stems from the idea that DoJ produces very little original material. You keep asking fans to continue to purchase the same general material which they have been purchasing for over 20 years: VIPER is just an update of the old Viper book, The Mystic World is just an update of The Ultimate Super-Mage and Mystic Masters, UNTIL is just an expansion of the material in Super Agents, the Bestiary come from 2 prior books, etc. I'm not saying the books do not expand upon older material but for the most part they are not offering new concepts. There seems to be little incentive to purchase a 5E book when you already have a serviceable 4E or 3E version of the same subject sitting on your self.

This brings me to Stronghold. What can you offer me in it that I can't already learn from the previous 2 Stronghold products? What's my incentive to purchase a sourcebook I have purchased twice before? I'm also asking for such upcoming books as Hidden Lands [with Atlantis information taken from the 4E version], Everyman [an updated Normals Unbound], and Enchanted Items.

Part of what I was hoping for from DoJ was some new directions, ideas, and concepts. What I seem to be getting more and more of is just 20 year old ideas and characters updated a second, third, or fourth time. Perhaps book sales would increase if people didn't feel as though they already owned all the Champions books you're trying to sell us.

I think Galactic Champions and the upcoming Teen Champions are steps in the right direction. Those books present some new ideas even if they are not as popular genres. I really wish I could see more Champions material which shows me something I have never seen before. It's getting harder and harder to stay enthused while reading the same old concepts over and over, IMO.

This is one of the best complaints about the quantity of Champions material I've seen. What I usually see is complaining that HERO is not making enough Champions material, when quite obviously Champs is getting the largest share. I can sympathize with you watching alot of rewrites that may or may not have much new material. I don't play champs so what is re-writes for me is substantially different from the 3rd or 4th ed I already have so I am happy, I kind of expected the Champs material to be the same but it sounds like that is not the case. Even with something like DC that was a big let down for me is still a good book I will use, it just is not what I had hoped for and expected (wanted more Eye for an Eye less HoJ). I would not have been to excited to buy a reprint of Fantasy HERO 4th ed, but 5th ed was practically all new so I was quite happy.

Kind of a rough spot when it comes to Champs, DoJ needs to put out the rewrites to provide details needed for newer players but the older players who have been around long enough to have an earlier edition or two are looking for the new and exciting products the other genres are getting.

[Toadmaster]

Well since everyone else is giving opinions here is my $0.015 (hey I'm a government employee so I can't afford a whole $0.02)

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Yes, never hurts to have NPC's
The Ultimate Mentalist: Yes
Stronghold: Nope, I don't do Champs
Golden Age Champions: Maybe, depends on how useful it is for other genres
Psychic Wars: Sure, not real high on my list but it sounds interesting
The Celtic Bestiary: Yep, sounds neat
Thrilling Places: Depends if this is real places or just a map book, but probably
Tuala Morn: Sure, I wasn't to interested in settings for FH but I've been happy with the Turakian age and Valdorian age so I'll be getting this one too.
Pulp Resource Guide: Yep, looking forward to Pulp so this is on my list
The Ultimate Skill: Probably, I hope this includes lots of ways to use skills as well as descriptions.
Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Probably not since I don't play Champs
Horror Hero: Yep, been waiting for this one
Danger Zones: This sounds interesting so probably yes
Champions Universe Update: Nope, Champs again, sorry
The Underworld Sourcebook: Probably

2006 looks good to me, looking forward to 2007

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm one of the "buy one of everything" folks. No reason to change that now.

Excited about Tuala Morn, Celtic Bestiary and Phychic Wars.

Personally I'd love to see the bestiaries expand thematically like that - we have the "generic", and upcoming the Asian and the Celtic. I'd love to see a "African" that goes into the myth, legends and beasties of Africa, and something similar for the Ancient American cultures. And maybe a "Pacific" that runs from the Aluetians to Austrialia.
I'd get those, even if I didn't buy one of everything.

GAC would be cool, especially if they keep the light tone of the previous versions. I loved Chris Coultier's style.

[splooger]

I'll probably buy all the books but still have no one to play HERO with :(

[Andrew Cermak]

Kind of a rough spot when it comes to Champs, DoJ needs to put out the rewrites to provide details needed for newer players but the older players who have been around long enough to have an earlier edition or two are looking for the new and exciting products the other genres are getting.

But on a closer examination, even the accusation of there being a lot of rewrites falls flat.

Looking at the line:

Champions looks nothing like the books that previously bore its name. None of them offered this kind of detailed overview of the comic-book genre.

Champions Universe is a top to bottom rewrite of the previous version. The percentage of recycled material isn't that high. And while CKC has recycled villains in it, a large number are completely new.

Millennium City and Vibora Bay are new.

Champions Battlegrounds, Shades of Black, and Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth are all new adventures.

VIPER and UNTIL are strongly based on previous material, but even they are far from being direct ports. And DEMON is so different from its previous incarnation it may as well be considered a new organization.

The Mystic World borrows a lot from the Ultimate Supermage. But let's not forget that TUSM was a PDF only release. I doubt that a large percentage of Hero fandom has that material. Arcane Adversaries has some commonalities with Mystic Masters and CotN:HE, but most of the characters therein are all-new.

The USPD is one of a kind. You'd have to go back to Gadgets! to find a comparison to Gadgets and Gear. And that would be a fairly lame comparison, considering that GNG is many times its size.

Galactic Champions covers completely new territory. Hidden Lands promises to do the same.

There's never been a Champions book like Villainy Amok before.

I'm sorry, but the idea that we're being deluged with old material doesn't hold up.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

For me....

Nobles, Knights, and Necromancers: I doubt it. I don't run Fantasy Hero.

Ultimate Mentalist: Definite yes.

Stronghold: Probably, though without some villain writeups, I see this as a wasted slot for Champs products.

Golden Age Champions: Probably yes, I don't own earlier versions...so this will make good reading material if nothing else.

Psychic Wars: Maybe....need to look at it.

Celtic Bestiary: Sure.....fantasy monsters without the work. Sounds good.

Tuala Morn: No. Not needed for my game.

Pulp Resource Guide and Thrilling Places: I'm running supers, so unless these offer something I can use...no.

Ultimate Skill: A pretty safe yes.

Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Easy yes....if only to read the writeups.

Horror Hero: Probably yes, unless it totally sucks writing wise.

Danger Zones: Maybe...we'll need a lookthrough first.

Champions Universe Update: The content will have to be really good. This means "new" writeups...and lots of them.

Underworld Sourcebook: Not sure....probably not...but if content is good.

The list will probably change anyways. Arcane Adversaries wasn't on the schedule originally and that was a very nice product...as was Champions Battlegrounds....so I doubt anyone really needs to worry.

Rob

[Toadmaster]

But on a closer examination, even the accusation of there being a lot of rewrites falls flat.

snip

I'm sorry, but the idea that we're being deluged with old material doesn't hold up.

Like I said I haven't been following the Champs stuff, I don't play Champions so I can't form my own opinion for that genre. I was saying if it is true that much of the line is rewrites I could understand the frustration, whether or not this is the case is outside my knowledge. I know for the genres I am interested in this is not the case, Star HERO, Fantasy HERO and Dark Champions are much more than just re-writes of the 3rd or 4th ed and all have been worth buying even though I have all the previous versions.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Like I said I haven't been following the Champs stuff, I don't play Champions so I can't form my own opinion for that genre. I was saying if it is true that much of the line is rewrites I could understand the frustration, whether or not this is the case is outside my knowledge. I know for the genres I am interested in this is not the case, Star HERO, Fantasy HERO and Dark Champions are much more than just re-writes of the 3rd or 4th ed and all have been worth buying even though I have all the previous versions.I think it's true in the Champions line as well. IMO, of all the Champions books that could be said to be rehashes of previous books in some way, the one that offers the least difference/improvement over its predecessor is VIPER. And having said that, I think the 5th Edition VIPER is much better than the 4th Edition one was, and is definitely a worthwhile buy.

Remember, just because a concept has been done before for a given game, doesn't mean it's been done right before. (Or, less judgementally, it doesn't mean it can't be done better.) Thus far, I think the "re-do's" Hero Games has done have generally been much improved over earlier versions, and I see no reason to assume that will change. I fully expect the 2006 versions of Golden Age Champions and Horror Hero to absolutely blow the doors off the 4th Edition versions, for example.

It's hardly like Hero Games is redoing all the earlier Champions books... they're redoing the ones that (A) seem like they could be improved enough to make it worthwhile, and (B) are important enough to the line to warrant re-doing.

[BobGreenwade]

Well, I'm modifying my original plans -- right after the Ultimate books on the list, I'll probably go ahead and grab the Pulp Resource Guide. It looks like it'd have a lot of cool historical stuff, and stuff that could "creep" into certain other genres. (For that matter, I wouldn't even mind the opportunity to write it ;) :D.) Thrilling Places has a lot of multigenre potential, too.

Celtic Bestiary will, for me, warrant at least looking at. The rest will have to wait until I'm ready to "fill out" my collection.... :(

[Dr. Anomaly]

Irrelevant note:

When I first looked at this thread title, I read it as "200d6..." :shock:

[mattingly]

When I first looked at this thread title, I read it as "200d6..."

Aren't you glad Haymakers are no longer x1.5 damage? :)

[archermoo]

It wasn't out of context at all. It was the last thought of a paragraph. It was a statement of action used to give weight to the ideas later in the announcement.

Turn off the fan-boy motor and realize I'm not attacking the company. I'm saying I'd like to see some original and new Champions material, and I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

What does it's being the last half of a paragraph have to do with it having been out of context?

You stated "Says a man who read DoJ's "Announcement" about sales being down and the company going out of business if people didn't start buying books." The annoucement didn't say that, so your statement was false and I called you on it. Then you quote out of context a remark about what would happen if things don't change, leaving out the part before it talking about how everything is okay currently, and the part after it about how things are changing. They didn't say "We're going out of business". They said "If we don't change some stuff, we won't make enough money to stay in business, and so here is one of the changes we can tell you about that we are making." You may consider those two statements to be the same, but they aren't. So since the quote was out of context, I called you an that too.

My pointing out both things has nothing to do with HERO Games being a company I support. Had it been a company that I disliked you made inaccurate statements about I would have pointed that out too. I just get annoyed when people make inaccurate statements that they present as being the truth. One of my pet peeves.

[Sketchpad]

I've been playing Champions since '85 and, honestly, I love what's coming out. My complaint is pretty much the opposite of Mitch's ... I'd love to see some of the older stuff come back. For example, I'd love to see Aaron Allston do a 5th ed version of the "Circle & Mete", "Strikeforce" and "The Blood and Dr. McQuark". Why? Well, the old ones are awesome ... but with the way the system's been expanded, I think it'd nice to see a 350+ version of many of the characters :D
Don't get me wrong, I like books like GC and TC ... but I also like the flavor of the older books :)

[SAVeira]

I've been playing Champions since '85 and, honestly, I love what's coming out. My complaint is pretty much the opposite of Mitch's ... I'd love to see some of the older stuff come back. For example, I'd love to see Aaron Allston do a 5th ed version of the "Circle & Mete", "Strikeforce" and "The Blood and Dr. McQuark". Why? Well, the old ones are awesome ... but with the way the system's been expanded, I think it'd nice to see a 350+ version of many of the characters :D
Don't get me wrong, I like books like GC and TC ... but I also like the flavor of the older books :)You and me both. I have stated many times, that we need Aaron Allston to favor use with a 5th Edition source of his Strikeforce universe.

Hey Steve, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is by preorder a copy in year in advance.

[Rick]

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Maybe

The Ultimate Mentalist: Yes, Love Ultimate books

Stronghold: No, Superheroes bore me these days

Golden Age Champions: Nope see above

Psychic Wars: Maybe, probably not

The Celtic Bestiary: YES!!! I love Beastiaries

Thrilling Places: Perhaps

Tuala Morn: The First Setting that sounds remotely interesting to me, strong maybe

Pulp Resource Guide: Yes.

The Ultimate Skill: Yes, see earlier comments on ultimate books

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Nopes, Supers = ZzzzzZzzzzZzzz for me

Horror Hero: Yep, love Genre books

Danger Zones: Sounds interesting

Champions Universe Update: ZzzzzzZzzzzzzZzzzz

The Underworld Sourcebook: Probably, just sounds like good info across several genres.

[Koshka]

Please tell me that GAC is going to be serious this time and not tongue-in-cheek as in the first two versions.

Ditto!

And now, for my rundown of the list:

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Depends on whether I'm in a FH game by then.

The Ultimate Mentalist: Let me take a look at it. If it's as well done as the rest of the 5th edition Ultimate books, probably yes.

Stronghold: Not immediately useful (at least in my current campaign), but I'll probably get it anyway for the same reason GestaltBennie gave :) .

Golden Age Champions: Yes.

Psychic Wars: Another one I'd need to take a look at first, but on the other hand it's Allen ....

The Celtic Bestiary: Could be useful in more genres than fantasy, so probably yes.

Thrilling Places: Yes.

Tuala Morn: Yes, even if I'm not in a FH game -- I like to read settings.

Pulp Resource Guide: Yes.

The Ultimate Skill: Yes.

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Yes.

Horror Hero: Depends on the author. (I saw Ken Hite's name mentioned in the survey thread. If it's him, two copies ;) .)

Danger Zones: Considering how several of the people in my gaming groups play, you'd think I could get them to play Dark Champions. But no, they're too busy complaining about the lethality in DC in between doing full STR, full speed move-throughs on normals. :rolleyes: I'd like to get it, but if money's tight I may wait on it until I get a game going.

Champions Universe Update: Probably yes.

The Underworld Sourcebook: Probably yes, this is something that I could use even if I don't have a DC game running.

[GamePhil]

Well, aside from being actively obsessed with having all the current HERO books (and previous ones, if the opportunity presents itself to grab something I didn't get), I've found all of the books to be remarkably useful to me. I used Viper in a Star Wars game. I use CKC for my main Fantasy game, though primarily for background (long story). Hero Universe background has been very useful for time travel adventures and for my New Atlantis High School game. There hasn't been one book that I haven't gotten some inspiration from so far.

Which is to say, I'll just keep getting all of them, and probably the PDF's and Character Packs.

[Kirby]

Well, I might as well put in my opinions, since that seems to be the thread trend now.

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: No. The Fantasy Hero setting isn't attractive to me, which ironic, because I am a player for the first time in a campaign. But this is more because I want to play HERO games as opposed to the setting (and if we rotate, I'll be able to run a game I like). Also, I picked up Fantasy Hero Grimoire at a Half-Price Bookstore (sells used books, for those that don't know) today because I just got paid and it was, well, half-priced. If my dwarf dies (unlikely considering we haven't been able to get together in four months now) it will (hopefully) help me make a sorcerer type character. I haven't looked through it except to check the quality of the book, not the material within. Anyway, since I'd run a 2E D&D game instead of Fantasy Hero, and this looks like a GM's guide, I don't see the need for it, for me.

The Ultimate Mentalist: Doubtful. Only if it's better than 4E. (And a lot of the remakes haven't been, in my opinion, YMMV.) If not, then I won't bother.


Stronghold: Doubtful. I already have two (or is it three?) books that contain Stronghold source material, so this would have to blow my socks away for me to purchase it. And to blow my socks away, I'd have to see it in the store, so I won't be ordering it online.

Golden Age Champions: Doubtful. While I like the genre, I already have the previous GAC. And out of the two groups I'm in, neither likes 4-color games, there's no need for it, especially if it is just another disappointing update.

Psychic Wars: Debatable. None of my players like mentalists, so they wouldn't like a mentalist shadow war, either.

The Celtic Bestiary: No. Not interested in the location or theme.

Thrilling Places: No. Not interested in the genre.

Tuala Morn: No. Not interested in the location or theme.

Pulp Resource Guide: No. Not interested in the genre.

The Ultimate Skill: Wait-and-see (in a store). If it's like Gadgets & Gears, then no. If it's like USPD, then definitely.

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Yes! I'm specifically hoping the Tiger Squad won't simply be updates of those found in Watchers of the Dragon, but will be others, if not the rest of the team. Fresh new villains!

Horror Hero: Doubtful. I prefer the horror genre in 2E D&D's Ravenloft. (A setting I invested much in.) Horror for HERO doesn't appeal to me as a GM.

Danger Zones: No. I have all 4E Dark Champions material and the 5E Dark Champions book didn't grab my attention at all.

Champions Universe Update: Wait-and-see.

The Underworld Sourcebook: No. Again, I have all the 4E DC material and have the San Angelo "Dragon's Gate" book that deals with Triads in the campaign I'm running. This seems to be just a 5E version of material I have. If I see it in a store and it knocks my socks off, then possibly; however, I'd have to see it and it would have to make me think of my 4E material as outdated and not worth using (something I don't think will happen).

Now, having stated all this, should I somehow come into $500,000 or more, after clearing all debts and buying a house and updating my wife's and my life, I'll buy each one to help out, barring that, then it looks like:

Yes: 1 :)
Potential: 3 :think:
Doubtful: 4 :straight:
No: 7 :no:

Urgh. Well, I still want to get a few other items that have already been released, so maybe that will help. :nonp:

[Kirby]

Not every Hero Games customer is sitting in a wet pair of depends and telling WWI stories like you are.
Boo! Boo! Very disappointed in your post. :thumbdown

[megaplayboy]

I think if Stronghold was written up in a way somewhat similar to USPD, with writeups for detention modules designed to restrain specific types of villain(perhaps with a notation as to which CKC villain they'd be suitable for, and possible ways for the villain to try to bypass the restraint), that'd be pretty cool.

[Mightybec]

Boo! Boo! Very disappointed in your post. :thumbdown
Oh, please... :rolleyes:

[Susano]

Oh, please... :rolleyes:

'bec has a point. There are a lot of people who never saw the older books. I know I didn't, and I've been playing since 1985. And those who did own said books -- in many cases the books are in ruins and/or unfindable. Besides, what's the difference between HERO doing a 3rd Edition of GAC and GURPS doing a 2nd or 3rd Edition of SUPERS, SWASHBUCKLERS, HORROR, and so on? Or WOTC doing all new MONSTER MANUALS, and FIEND FOLIO books?

[Citizen Keen]

Agreed. I think DOJ is doing an excellent job of printing new material and refreshing the classics.

[Kirby]

'bec has a point. There are a lot of people who never saw the older books.
Oh, I know he has a point, but the way he displayed it was very inappropriate, including the metaphor.


Besides, what's the difference between HERO doing a 3rd Edition of GAC and GURPS doing a 2nd or 3rd Edition of SUPERS, SWASHBUCKLERS, HORROR, and so on? Or WOTC doing all new MONSTER MANUALS, and FIEND FOLIO books?
Out of those, D&D (WotC) is the only one I've pruchased, so I can't respond on the others. I will say that I do not play 3E D&D now.

[Kirby]

Agreed. I think DOJ is doing an excellent job of printing new material and refreshing the classics.
You're entitled to your opinion, but Mightybec's response was beneath him (in my opinion).

As for the "refreshing the classics" I have a nearly opposite opinion. I think VIPER has been the worst, though I've also been disappointed in Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth (somewhat new adventure, but rehash of COIL), DEMON, Ninja Hero and Champions Universe (all of those books I own) as well as Dark Champions (which I decided to not purchase).

PSI and Genocide are being redone (though Genocide under a different name, apparently). I think a lot of us veterans, while not minding to see eventual updates, don't want so many when there could be new material for us (as well as for "newbies").

[Susano]

I think VIPER has been the worst, though I've also been disappointed in Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth (somewhat new adventure, but rehash of COIL), DEMON, Ninja Hero and Champions Universe (all of those books I own) as well as Dark Champions (which I decided to not purchase).

What was so bad about NINJA HERO?

[Mightybec]

Oh, I know he has a point, but the way he displayed it was very inappropriate, including the metaphor.

I'm Bec. That's what I do. :yes:

[GamePhil]

What was so bad about NINJA HERO?

I thought the Hell of having one's testicles bitten (or something like that, don't see my book here) was pretty bad.

[GamePhil]

I'm Bec. That's what I do. :yes:

Seriously, this is the man who gave Giganta a purple nurple. What do you expect?

[archermoo]

You're entitled to your opinion, but Mightybec's response was beneath him (in my opinion).

I didn't realize that there was anything that was beneath the Becster...

:nonp:

[Wanderer]

When you post the final 2006 Schedule, you are going to revise the 2005 one as well, aren't you, since it looks quite a bit of stuff got shuffled ;)

So far, having the descriptions of books...

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: so far I haven't gone very far in Fantasy Hero, just got the stuff that was indirectly useful for Champions (FH and Grimoires), since I mostly use other systems (the WW Dark Ages lines and Ars Magica) for fantasy. So this is a probably No, only Maybe if I get it at a heavy discount. Or unless I am shown how it may be useful for Champions.

The Ultimate Mentalist: a resounding Yes, as soon as it is published. I am eagerly intererested in books that add ideas for character archetypes.

Stronghold: another enthusiastic Yes. I am deeply interested in getting more background information on "superprisons". If I can add some more wish/advice (and question), will it include info on UNTIL sistem superjail, the Guardhouse ? And will the setting info and the adventure scenario give ideas for characters running a jailbreak scenario as inmates, as well (an Escape From Stronghold/Guardhouse Redemption scenario) ? A sizable part of the characters I run might as well end up in Stronghold as guests of the State...

Golden Age Champions: this is not the comic age that interests me the most, but given my irrepressible Champions completist urge, and as encouragement to eventually do Iron Age Champions ;), it's another definite Yes.

Psychic Wars: enthusiastic Yes. I quite like Scanners-like conspiratorial "shadow-war" psionics-based SF (actually, I like them much more than space opera or hard SF).

The Celtic Bestiary: No. As a rule, I don't buy bestiary sourcebooks unless absolutely necessary.

Thrilling Places: No. Sorry, I'm not interested in Pulp Hero at all. Unless I realize this book may be mined for Champions, but I think Hidden Lands is going to cover that angle to my full satisfaction.

Tuala Morn: Hmm, Maybe, but in all likelihood Yes. I don't get much Fantasy Hero stuff, but Celtic fantasy intrigues me. If I don't get excessive expenses otherwhere, I might as well get it.

Pulp Resource Guide: No. Sorry, I'm not interested in Pulp Hero at all.

The Ultimate Skill: an enthusiastic Yes. I can foresee much use for this cub.

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: an enthusiastic Yes. If any, I'm regretting it was postponed at 2006 at all.

Horror Hero: Absolutely No, No, and again No. Classical Horror RP (where you are supposed to RP getting wet in your pants from shambling piles of garbage with squids as heads) bores me beyond tears. This perspective Hero line is a sure money loss with me.

Danger Zones: Hmm, Maybe, but in all likelihood Yes. This looks like it's going to be useful for Vigilante-like Champions as well.

Champions Universe Update: Surely Yes. Additional and updated general info on CU is always welcome.

The Underworld Sourcebook: Hmm, Maybe, but in all likelihood Yes. This looks like it's going to be useful for Vigilante-like Champions as well.

[archermoo]

I think a lot of us veterans, while not minding to see eventual updates, don't want so many when there could be new material for us (as well as for "newbies").

And there are a fair number of us veterans that didn't buy a lot of the originals because we weren't impressed with most of them, and are quite happy with the updates.

[Kirby]

What was so bad about NINJA HERO?
After having the 4E Ultimate Martial Artist and Ninja Hero (and related: Watchers of the Dragon), this one fell short of impressing me. I haven't seen a weapons list in it (which 4E had) and of the magical weapons, there weren't any that I found more entertaining than those in 4E version (but really, nothing beats a crawling shuriken the first time a player sees it in action).

Now, I'm not saying it was a bad book, but, as a veteran Champions player, I wasn't anywhere near as excited, with its retail at $27 (158 pages), when I only paid $17 for 4E (175 pages), which came with an adventure (if 5E has one, I've missed it every time). Also, just the mentioning of Anime & Pulp genres weren't it, for me.

If I were new to HERO, I'm sure I would have enjoyed it much more, and I may reference it should I ever be in a position to build a ninja character (which I would like to do).

[Kirby]

And there are a fair number of us veterans that didn't buy a lot of the originals because we weren't impressed with most of them, and are quite happy with the updates.
Yep, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And it's debatable of using that as a market strategy (not that I'm saying it is, just pointing it out) of what should HERO do: revamp old books in hopes of selling them to people that didn't buy in the first place, or make books that our long-time customers would enjoy?

You can't please everyone all the time. It's a tough job producing for a mixed target audience, veteran gamers and potential newbies.

[GamePhil]

Thrilling Places: No. Sorry, I'm not interested in Pulp Hero at all. Unless I realize this book may be mined for Champions, but I think Hidden Lands is going to cover that angle to my full satisfaction.

Pulp Resource Guide: No. Sorry, I'm not interested in Pulp Hero at all.


As many of the pulps were precursors to superheroes, it should be very possible to mine both of these books for a Champions game. Specifically, they may be useful for coming up with backgrounds for the current member of a "heroic tradition" or mentors that have been around since the old days. Probably get more from this from Thrilling Places than the Resource Guide, though that might be useful if you do a historical Champions game (having superheroes in the '20s and '30s).



Horror Hero: Absolutely No, No, and again No. Classical Horror RP (where you are supposed to RP getting wet in your pants from shambling piles of garbage with squids as heads) bores me beyond tears. This perspective Hero line is a sure money loss with me.


I'm reasonably sure that this won't be what the book is about, though it will surely include such things. It will have treatments of including horror in all of the basic genres, so that you can get dark fantasy, add conspiracies to your games, and so on. For instance, it should be useful for Teen Champions characters fighting the undead in a mythical city, having Takafones return to menace the Galactic Champions after having "slept" for a thousand years or the new Archmage having to battle supernatural evil to protect the Earth.

[archermoo]

Yep, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And it's debatable of using that as a market strategy (not that I'm saying it is, just pointing it out) of what should HERO do: revamp old books in hopes of selling them to people that didn't buy in the first place, or make books that our long-time customers would enjoy?

You can't please everyone all the time. It's a tough job producing for a mixed target audience, veteran gamers and potential newbies.

Very true, and I wasn't meaning to imply that you have to like it, and apologize if that is the way it seemed.

That said, I think there are a couple of good reasons for them to do what they are doing. First, it generally requires less resources to release an updated version of an older book that the company already holds the rights to. Not always, but often so. And one of the reasons that the pre-5th books were done is because they were on popular/useful topics. Since one of the goals of the current management of HERO Games is to get more people into the HERO system, releasing in print version of popluar classics and other useful books for the people they are trying to get into the system just makes sense.

Which I realize doesn't really help those that already have pre-5th versions of books that work just fine for them. As you said, a tough choice on the part of HERO. Personally I'm happy with it, but I can certainly understand those that would prefer most of not all of the releases were "new" material.

[Susano]

After having the 4E Ultimate Martial Artist and Ninja Hero (and related: Watchers of the Dragon), this one fell short of impressing me. I haven't seen a weapons list in it (which 4E had) and of the magical weapons, there weren't any that I found more entertaining than those in 4E version (but really, nothing beats a crawling shuriken the first time a player sees it in action).

The weapons list is in UMA for 5th. They weren't going to repeat the same thing twice.



Now, I'm not saying it was a bad book, but, as a veteran Champions player, I wasn't anywhere near as excited, with its retail at $27 (158 pages), when I only paid $17 for 4E (175 pages), which came with an adventure (if 5E has one, I've missed it every time). Also, just the mentioning of Anime & Pulp genres weren't it, for me.

Well, IMO, you can't discuss the martial arts action/adventure genre and not mention anime (or video games). Especially these days, when books stores have whole sections dedicated to translated manga collections. As for Pulp, there wasn't any in there that I recall.

I'd also point out that something like 15 years (or more) passed between NH 4th and NH 5th. A $10.00 increase in a book sounds about right. Look at paperbacks, or GURPS books. Heck, the Monster Manual was what? $9.95 in 1979 or so? And aren't they around $29.99 now?

[Magmarock]

Looks like its time to start saving the dinero for when these new books are released. :)

Mags

[rayoman]

If the book is for Champions or closely related to Champions then I will probably buy it.

Other books, I am not so sure about but I take them on a case by case basis.

I would probably by the Fantasy Hero stuff because I have refused to purchase anymore d20 books, no matter what and I was impressed by 3.0/3.5.

[Lord Mhoram]

though I've also been disappointed in DEMON, (with snippage)

Wow. First time I've heard anyone say that. In our neck of the woods, it is considered the best of the 5th ed Champs books. VIPER was a huge dissapointment - the 4th version was head and shoulders above 5th, but the 5th ed Demon is likely going to be, IMO, the best 5th organization book (unless something really impressive comes along, like Allston updating Strikeforce).

[Wanderer]

Broadening the scope of the Stronghold book to the point where it covers 3-4 different super-prisons [USA's Stronghold, UNTIL's Guardhouse, and maybe a couple from different countries like China and Russia] and prison systems would make the book interesting enough that I might purchase it. At least then I'd feel like I was getting new information.

I strongly share the sentiment about this book ought to cover all of the CU's superprisons, and really I don't see why the book shouldn't cover the Guardhouse as well, since it is now an established part of canon CU. However, since I come onboard to Hero with 5th Edition, though I have been a rather thorough completist with it, I'm going to find even a Stronghold-only book quite interesting, since I was quite unaware that it had been previously covered on other editions' books as well ? Which/how they are ? Are they easy to adapt to 5th Ed ?

[Wanderer]

As many of the pulps were precursors to superheroes, it should be very possible to mine both of these books for a Champions game. Specifically, they may be useful for coming up with backgrounds for the current member of a "heroic tradition" or mentors that have been around since the old days. Probably get more from this from Thrilling Places than the Resource Guide, though that might be useful if you do a historical Champions game (having superheroes in the '20s and '30s).

I guess Pulp Stuff might be useful in these ways, and as i said, it might be possible Thrilling Places may be mined for additional ideas about Hidden Lands and/or Mystic World stuff. As for historical Cahmpions, they might; however, that's not the angle of the CU I focus on (I prefer GC and MW/TUM stuff).


I'm reasonably sure that this won't be what the book is about, though it will surely include such things. It will have treatments of including horror in all of the basic genres, so that you can get dark fantasy, add conspiracies to your games, and so on. For instance, it should be useful for Teen Champions characters fighting the undead in a mythical city, having Takafones return to menace the Galactic Champions after having "slept" for a thousand years or the new Archmage having to battle supernatural evil to protect the Earth.

Well, in the case the overwhelming majority of the book focuses on the stuff you suggest, introducing darker- or horror-slanted topics in other genres, I concede the book might be useful.

I just adamantly refuse to shell out precious hard-earned cash in order to be lectured (as horror RPG generally do) on the proper techniques (like Fright Checks, Sanity Checks, and similar crap) to "ensure" (read: enforce) "atmosphere" (i.e. pathetically being inexplicably scared $£%&less, made in psychotic breakdown and killed by ridiculous stuff that any people with minimal spine and brains and a good dose of automatic ammo and/or lighted gasoline would put a quick end to) and "character" (i.e. RPing loathsome character concepts and personalities that otherwise I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole and I'd mandate for mercy killing, like the hopeless pathetic cretin spineless losers starring in horror movies).

Either you are allowed to RP characters the usual way, then it isn't horror RPG, it's fantasy (or action-adventure, or superheroic...) with horror elements, or you are forced to accept rules and conventions that make your character look and act like a pathetic moron spineless loser (to properly resemble the Darwin's bait idiots that get stabbed/killed/eaten by mad slashers/monsters/zombies in horror movies, and they wouldn't if they weren't so stupid/coward/clueless), and that's wholly, completely inacceptable.

So a sourcebook about putting horror elements in other genres might be useful (and I'd enthusiastically welcome magical elements, like Takofanes and the Archmage, being reintroduced to GC setting), but the "horror RP" crap ? No way I'm going to pay for it.

[SleepyDrug]

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers:

Probably not unless it is mind-boggling great. I'm more into Champions than FH.

The Ultimate Mentalist:

I love the ultimate series and am sure to grab this one

Stronghold:
Yes!! I'll get this...esp if it also has the Guardhouse

Golden Age Champions: most likely ... but it depends on the final product. I'd like to see more write-ups of weapons and vehicles of the era, as well as characters.

Psychic Wars: maybe

The Celtic Bestiary: probably not

Thrilling Places: maybe, depends if i get into Pulp Hero

Tuala Morn: probably not

Pulp Resource Guide: probably, this sounds like it is easily mined for other genres

The Ultimate Skill: most likely

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Probably....

Horror Hero: no

Danger Zones: not likely

Champions Universe Update: maybe

The Underworld Sourcebook: probably

[GamePhil]

Well, in the case the overwhelming majority of the book focuses on the stuff you suggest, introducing darker- or horror-slanted topics in other genres, I concede the book might be useful.


That is how they described it at the con. Horror is considered a "meta-genre" (I think I've got the term right), one to be added to other genres rather than standing on its own.

According to this model , Lovecraft novels, the primary influence for games like you describe, could be described as dark fantasy (or perhaps dark pulp science fiction). I assume there will be some treatment of "sanity destroying horrors from beyond space and time", especially since there are several examples in current books, but that won't be the whole of it.

[Wanderer]

That is how they described it at the con. Horror is considered a "meta-genre" (I think I've got the term right), one to be added to other genres rather than standing on its own.

According to this model , Lovecraft novels, the primary influence for games like you describe, could be described as dark fantasy (or perhaps dark pulp science fiction). I assume there will be some treatment of "sanity destroying horrors from beyond space and time", especially since there are several examples in current books, but that won't be the whole of it.

I have no difficulty with "cosmic horrors from beyond space and time" starring in hero. Really, I think the examples already standing, like The Kings of Edom, Tyrannon and the Dragon, excellent game stuff, which enriches the CU (and I have already used them in play and in characters' backgrounds; if any, I'm quite interested in the Mystic/Cosmic angle of the CU). If Hero gets further expanded and developed on these lines, I'm perfectly happy. What I vociferously object against is not having Lovecraftian horrors in CU, is being goaded to RP my characters' reactions to them like the spineless losers that star in Lovecraft's novels and go catatonic or scared psychotic from seeing an overgrown traffic cone with eyestalks. Kings of Edom and DEMON are perfectly well; Fright Checks, Sanity Checks, and the other crap Horror RPGs usually employ to ensure characters are RPed like the pathetic loser characters of horror movies and novels are not.

[Wanderer]

Stronghold is covered in the adventure Escape from Stronghold and then revised for 4E in Classic Enemies. They're both easy to adapt. It's just cells, guards, and robots for the most part.

Hmm, really. You pique my curiosity. What's the kind of counter-measures they employ to keep superhumans imprisoned ? Do they use "power-negators" like the ones described in Champions, UNTIL, and Gadgets and Gear? Otherwise how powerful cells and robots are ? Are there powered armor guards ? How do they restrain really powerful supervillains like Grond, Viperia, Firewing, Holocaust, Gravitar, and Dark Seraph ? Do they make use of "hot sleep" suspended animation ?

[NuSoardGraphite]

My big ones are The Ultimate Mentalist (I lost my copy of the 4th edition version, so a new version is appreciated!) and The Ultimate Skill (definately a must have)

I'm very likely to purchase Horror Hero (plan to run a Moster-Hunter campaign at some point) and Tuala Morn and Celtic Beastiary. I've always been a big fan of Celtic fantasy with The Mabinogian being one of my favorite collection of Myths, this should be right up my alley.

The Champions Universe stuff isn't my cup of tea, but I'll keep an eye out for anything that could be useful...

[Susano]

What I vociferously object against is not having Lovecraftian horrors in CU, is being goaded to RP my characters' reactions to them like the spineless losers that star in Lovecraft's novels and go catatonic or scared psychotic from seeing an overgrown traffic cone with eyestalks. Kings of Edom and DEMON are perfectly well; Fright Checks, Sanity Checks, and the other crap Horror RPGs usually employ to ensure characters are RPed like the pathetic loser characters of horror movies and novels are not.

I'd like to point out that Lovecraft doesn't have a lot of "spineless losers" in his stories. Granted, my books are packed away, but I recall many character seeing various horrors from beyond space and time and surviving -- sanity intact. Some did go mad, yes, but then they also looked dead-on into some sort of sanity-blasting horror (sort of like looking into the face of Judge Fear), or were casting spells that warped the caster. Lovecraft did use fairly normal people as his heroes -- academics, teachers, writers, and the like, not the brawny self-reliant heroes of his close friend RE Howard. And these people were often not prepared for "the truth is out there." I mean, really, if you (or I) saw a dead man get up and walk, would you reach for a rifle or start running? And let's not even think about a shambling something 20 feet tall who's mere existence warps the nature of reality around it.

Thinking about it, SAN-checks are no different then taking damage. The difference instead of hurting your body, you are hurting your mind. Take too much SAN damage and you're not dead, just insane (even if only for a bit). It helps re-enforce a certain idea -- that of risk and fear. Tell the PCs there's a dragon (or a demon) in a haunted tower and they may say "I'm only 150 points [or first level]" and decide to wait. Tell the PCs that something is eating the bones out of people in the deserted house in Elm Street and in COC you might get "My SAN is only 20 these days... can I survive another encounter?" Same element of risk, different mechanic.

Eliminating these effects does run the risk of having players (and those PCs) not showing any fear or apprehension of anything. "Ho-hum, it's yet another eldritch horror. Jeeves? The shotgun please." Of course, you don't need to use SAN or Fright Checks, you can use PRE Attacks -- and when you get right down to it, aren't they the same thing? Where's the difference from a King of Edom hitting a PC with 100+ PRE worth of fear and Cthulhu causing you to lose 100 SAN in a single shot?

[GamePhil]

Let's not derail the thread too much. Other Genres is a good place to discuss Horror HERO.

[nexus]

Let's not derail the thread too much. Other Genres is a good place to discuss Horror HERO.

You're right. I'll move it to the appropriate forums. My apologies. It is a bit of a hot button for me.

[GamePhil]

Nevermind.

[Wanderer]

That's right, Nexus. I just wish to be left alone to RP Joe Ironballs Cosmic Superhero that has faced innumerable risks and dangers and made sure of his 700+ pts. superpowers, couldn't give a damn about what unsavory substance the 100-feet mound of tentacles and eyes might drool. Since after you've looked Dr. Destroyer and Godzilla eye-to-eye you are left unfazed by the fact your next opponent may look like your thrown-up lunch. And I don't want some crappy game-mechanic tailor-made to force my character wet in the pants just because the opponent looks like a strange cross-over of zoological pictures, or appears to resemble anyone's dead corpse up and meaning for a shamble.

If you find that kind of RP experience rewarding, good for you. I don't. I'm a quite unafraid psychological complexion in RL, and I wouldn't like having any character that would be less blasè than I am. You know what kind of character I deem acceptable for an Horror RP? Ash, of the Evil Dead/Army of Darkness fame. Anything less is wholly unacceptable ;) I am just stating that Hero Games cannot counting on my money to support the kind of setting and ruleset you instead seem to welcome. So we'll both voting with our money :)

Edit- OK, let's end the topic here. I think the idea I'm not going to buy Horror Hero has seeped through by now. :) It's just something of an hot topic for me too.

[nexus]

That's right, Nexus. I just wish to be left alone to RP Joe Ironballs Cosmic Superhero that has faced innumerable risks and dangers and made sure of his 700+ pts. superpowers, couldn't give a damn about what unsavory substance the 100-feet mound of tentacles and eyes might drool. Since after you've looked Dr. Destroyer and Godzilla eye-to-eye you are left unfazed by the fact your next opponent may look like your thrown-up lunch. And I don't want some crappy game-mechanic tailor-made to force my character wet in the pants just because the opponent looks like a strange cross-over of zoological pictures, or appears to resemble anyone's dead corpse up and meaning for a shamble.


First, who's forcing you? Just becuse DOJ puts it in a book doesn't mean you have to use it.

Second, in most horror setting I know of you aren't Prof Omnipotus or Capt Invulnerable. You're playing Joe the librarian or Suzy the luckless accountant.

Third, as Susano posted. How exactly is it different form a Major Pre Attack? Takofanes can magically make his Pre what? Something like 100 and I can almost garuntee you that'll make even Omnipetus pee a little.



If you find that kind of RP experience rewarding, good for you. I don't. I'm a quite unafraid psychological complexion in RL, and I wouldn't like having any character that would be less blasè than I am.


So..if there were swarms of all but invulnerable undead roaming the earth in packs, you wouldn't blink? Godzilla tearing up your city? *yawn* Alien horror that is literally causing reality itself to melt around it and just shrugged off a nuke? Wake you with something intersting is happening?

I'll just say..I find that very difficult to believe.



You know what kind of character I deem acceptable for an Horror RP? Ash, of the Evil Dead/Army of Darkness fame. Anything less is wholly unacceptable ;) I am just stating that Hero Games cannot counting on my money to support the kind of setting and ruleset you instead seem to welcome. So we'll both voting with our money :)

Who's "making" you play anything? Nobody. "Ash" is a parody, the movies are, at best, tongue in cheek with a hero that is a cariacture of an action movie steretype. If that's what you find enjoyable, go for it, but there's no need to piss on everyone else that wants something a bit more...down to earth shall we say.

Sure, don't buy the book. It was your passing judgement on it and everyone that wants to see that annoyed me. I couldn't care less if purchased on it or not.

I wouldn't give a cup of warm rat piss for that "Uber Gawd Champions" stuff you seem to want, but I try to dump on people that like it. :)

Any, If you want to continue this, lets do it PM and not steal this thread.

[GamePhil]

Nevermind.

[nexus]

If he wants to judge the book sight unseen a year in advance..its his choice.

[GamePhil]

Nevermind.

[nexus]

Which he was willing to look at, briefly. Then the arguing started. Interestingly, one of your points in the other thread indicate that you are largely in agreement.

Let the madness end.

*shrugs* All right, if my problem with his perception of horror play is able to make him unwilling to look at book for its actual content. My bad then.

But what point proves I am in agreement with him? PM me please?

[nexus]

All my hard work to explain that what you're thinking the book will be is not actually correct have been wasted. Unfortunate.

Time to go beat up Nexus ;)

He never said that he didn't want to see the book exist, he said that he wasn't interested in it. He also said why, and was thinking about looking into it to verify whether or not it might be useful to him when the ranting started. Now he's all the way back to "nope, not interested" rather than "maybe if it's what you say".

I don't care if he buys it or not. That is his choice. It was the viewpoints he expressed on Horror and its players that I found insulting. I also agreed with you that it was off topic and moved my posts to completly different thread. If I hold some much influence that he's still not even going to look at the book because I didn't like what he said (I made no comment about the content of the book) then thats his choice.

[Wanderer]

Oh, don't worry, notwithstanding the way I loathe Horror cliches in general, I'll keep somewhat of an open mind abouyt the book and lend an eye to reviews/resumes of the books when it comes out (who knows, my playtest subscriptions might well be still active by then) and judge the book by its merits. If it looks more similar to Mystic World, Ultimate Mystic, Arcane Adversaries, and DEMON, all books I bought and use and to my full satisfaction, and in general be a treasuretrove of advice to use horror-themed topics in all genres, since I'm not interested in playing pure horror RPG at all, for me empowerment is an indispensable component of RP, I will consider buy it. If a sizable portion of it is filled with suggestions on improving "ambience" and "atmosphere" by giving systems by which my battle-hardened superhero or action hero should be scared helpless by zombies or bizarre-looking creatures, or normals characters should not be intrepid, resourceful normals like me ;) but the clueless moron victims of horror movies, I won't. It's that simple. So I leave judgement open. I just pre-emptively state that focusing on certain topics would make the book useless to me.

[Beetle]

Here's my take on the recently announced books:

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: I'll purchase this one at some point. Enemies books are always useful (well, except for one) for the ideas if not the characters themselves. But it's not something I'd feel the need to pounce on the first day out. (speaking of that one, when is Europeans, Errors and Errata coming out? :D )

The Ultimate Mentalist: Mentalists aren't really my thing, but I'll probably end up with a copy of this book eventually.

Stronghold: Another title I'll probably pick up, but not a "must have."

Golden Age Champions: This is a must have. I'm very excited to finally have this coming out. (I've been playing Champions since 1986 but have missed the prior versions of this book)

Psychic Wars: Probably won't be getting this one. The genre/storyline just doesn't appeal to me at all.

The Celtic Bestiary: A definate purchase. Like the "enemies" books, a good bestiary is always worth the money (to me, at least). More an "eventually" than a "must buy now" book, though.

Thrilling Places: Pulp stuff!! I'm so happy to finally be getting this that I might by multiple copies to support the line. This will get pounced on as soon as it becomes available

Tuala Morn: Sounds interesting, so I'll be getting this at some point.

Pulp Resource Guide: More pulpy goodness. I'll be buying at least one of these and washing it down with some fresh Florida orange juice (with pulp, of course). It's a must have.

The Ultimate Skill: I'll wait to hear reveiws of this, but if it is as good as USPD it will be a must buy. I'll probably end up with it eventually in any case.

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: More enemies, more money spent at some point.

Horror Hero: I have the 4th edition version of this printed out somewhere (I got it as a pdf), and I remember being disappointed with it for some reason. That just makes me more eager to get the new version, as this is a genre I'd very much like to try out.

Danger Zones: Probably won't be getting this. The 5th ed version of Dark Champions is darker than I like my Champions (I'm more an "animated series" person, I guess)

Champions Universe Update: I'm not really interested in using the official champs universe, but like enemies books it'll be useful for the ideas. So I'll probably pick this up eventually.

The Underworld Sourcebook: Maybe. I'll wait to hear user feedback on this. If it's useful to non-DC campaigns than I'll probably pick it up.

To sum up:

Will Buy ASAP: 4
Will Buy Eventually: 8
Probably Won't Buy: 3