A question of size

[nexus]

Posting this for a friend with no acess to the board



I was looking over some of the Hero rules last night and I was a little puzzled by the combat modifiers for target size, especially vehicles and bases. On the one hand, there's an extensive list of penalties to DCV due to the size of the vehicle/base. On the other hand, there are also bonuses to attacker's OCV listed (up to +6) in the general combat modifiers table. Any insight? It seems like the attacker ought to get a bonus or the defender ought to get a penalty, but not both.


The DCV penalties for target size induce brow-wrinkling to start with. The vehicles I have been making tend to wind up with a DCV of zero unless I pump the DEX way up, and even then that's supposing the pilot/driver's DEX is high enough to make the vehicle's high DEX matter. Furthermore, since DCV can't fall below zero (if I'm reading the rules correctly) that means there is, in general, no practical difference between a vehicle the size of a main battle tank and one the size of a Jawa Sandcrawler unless the DEXes involved are huge to an unholy scale. The thing that's a bit irritating about this is that it seems to reduce the value of the combat driving skill--if your vehicle's DCV is zero to start with, being able to drive it at full DCV versus half DCV isn't much help!


Am I interpreting something incorrectly here?

[sbarron]

OK. First of all, my girlfriend assures me size doesn't matter. So I'm sticking with that...;)


I was looking over some of the Hero rules last night and I was a little puzzled by the combat modifiers for target size, especially vehicles and bases. On the one hand, there's an extensive list of penalties to DCV due to the size of the vehicle/base. On the other hand, there are also bonuses to attacker's OCV listed (up to +6) in the general combat modifiers table. Any insight? It seems like the attacker ought to get a bonus or the defender ought to get a penalty, but not both.I think that only one of these bonuses or penalties would apply. The reason they are both listed is becasue the GM probably doesn't stat out every car, truck, and building, in his world. That being the case, the OCV bonus chart provides a way for a PC to attack large objects with appropriate ease. I'd think, the DCV penatly would apply to anything that the GM (or player) actually statted up, in place of the OCV bonus chart. The OCV chart covers everything else.

I'd have to review the vehicle rules before I'd care to discuss the second part, so maybe someone will chime in.

[Citizen Keen]

This doesn't seem like a "How-to" question, or an unhappiness with the rules. This seems like a legitimate rules clarification question (dear God!). As such, it might be best to throw it in Steve's private forum.

[Lord Liaden]

It's certainly possible for things in HERO to have a negative DCV. There are several creatures in the HERO System Bestiary, for example, which explicitly have negative DCV due to modifiers for great size (which are bought as a Physical Limitation).

When figuring the Attack Roll target number, when it comes to subtracting the target's DCV a negative number for DCV would become positive (AAHG! HERO Math!!) ;) , and so would be added to the target number instead.

[rjcurrie]

When figuring the Attack Roll target number, when it comes to subtracting the target's DCV a negative number for DCV would become positive (AAHG! HERO Math!!) ;) , and so would be added to the target number instead.
Oh, come on, that's not HERO Math, it's regular everyday Math. Subtracting a negative number is the same as adding the positive equivalent (the absolute value) of the number. The way you stated it implies that you would still subtract the absolute value.

For example, if a character with an OCV of 5 attacks a character with a DCV of -2, the character needs to roll the following or less to succeed:

11+OCV-DCV
11+5-(-2)
11+5+2
18

So, the character would need a 18 or less to hit.

[schir1964]

Nexus,

I created a document that addresses this in detail. If you wish, I could email this you so you could look it over.

Just email me at schir1964 @ netzero.com address.

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Liaden]

Oh, come on, that's not HERO Math, it's regular everyday Math. Subtracting a negative number is the same as adding the positive equivalent (the absolute value) of the number. The way you stated it implies that you would still subtract the absolute value.

For example, if a character with an OCV of 5 attacks a character with a DCV of -2, the character needs to roll the following or less to succeed:

11+OCV-DCV
11+5-(-2)
11+5+2
18

So, the character would need a 18 or less to hit.

I thought it was clear that that's the point I was making, but obviously not. Thanks for clarifying that, Rod. :)

And I guess that my ;) wasn't sufficient to show that I was making fun of common kneejerk reactions to "HERO Math." It must be true that sarcasm does not travel well over the Internet. :rolleyes: :snicker:

[Dust Raven]

It's certainly possible for things in HERO to have a negative DCV. There are several creatures in the HERO System Bestiary, for example, which explicitly have negative DCV due to modifiers for great size (which are bought as a Physical Limitation).
Actually, it's explicitly impossible to have a DCV of less than 0, regardless of modifiers. The reason the full penalty is listed is becaue that's the actually penalty. Should the creatures DEX be increased, more of the penalty would apply.

[Dust Raven]

Posting this for a friend with no acess to the board
I don't believe that vehicles should have DCV penalties. Period. Same thing goes for everything else concerning a larger size. That way you can use the CV Modifiers in the combat sections for all cases of larger and smaller size.

I also believe it shouldn't be based on the human size, but on relative size. Smaller character would have a greater chance of hitting a larger charcter while being more difficult to be struck by the larger character. Attacking something big should give an OCV Bonus to the attacker, attacking something small should grant a DCV bonus to the target.

I think the only reason this hasn't been implimented is because of balance issues with Growth and Shrinking.

As for Vehicle DEX and DCV, I believe that if the driver/pilot makes a Combat Driving/Piloing roll the vehicle has it full DCV (no size penalty), but I'm not too sure about that.

[Dust Raven]

I have never seen that rule. Could you please point me to a page reference?
FREd page 245, fist column about halfway down: "A character's DCV cannot be reduced below 0, regardless of how many modifiers are applied."

I don't know the page referece for 5ER though.

[Raizer]

p. 373 in the Revised.

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting. Thanks guys. :thumbup:

[TaxiMan]

Regarding main battle tanks and sand crawlers, the real way they get DCV is with range penalties. Optionally, velocity DCV bonuses.

Something man-sized and close up is supposedly as hard to hit as something that is huge, far away, and still seems man-sized. Don't believe that works so well IRL, but then most of my attacks have "range based on STR".

[Lord Liaden]

You think that's bad? Not only have I been playing that long, but I saw that datum a few months ago in relation to another question and promptly forgot about it. :o

[nexus]

Does the target get a DCV penalty AND the attacker get an OCV bonus, or is it just one or the other?

I was given a page reference, but I don't have revised so I need to ask someone what the ruling is.

I can't get revised for awhile, since right now I am on a fixed income and frankly, very broke. I can't justify spending 50 bucks for a book that mostly stuff I already have (despite how much I want it and want to support Hero games), so I'll have to pick it up where I'm able.

[Dust Raven]

Does the target get a DCV penalty AND the attacker get an OCV bonus, or is it just one or the other?

I was given a page reference, but I don't have revised so I need to ask someone what the ruling is.

I can't get revised for awhile, since right now I am on a fixed income and frankly, very broke. I can't justify spending 50 bucks for a book that mostly stuff I already have (despite how much I want it and want to support Hero games), so I'll have to pick it up where I'm able.
This type of confusion and/or multiplicity of bonuses is why I think there should be just one rule for modifying the chances to hit a larger or smaller object, instead of having an OCV bonus for one, a DCV bonus for another, and then penalties instead of bonuses in some circumstances that only apply if the players and GM are looking.

[TaxiMan]

DR, do you HAVE to get in the last word? Just askin'...

[Dust Raven]

DR, do you HAVE to get in the last word? Just askin'...

Well, no. But since you asked, it looks like I have. :) Why?

[nexus]

No, characters with size powers use their own dcv values. The ocv bonuses are for objects like trees.

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

[Sean Waters]

OK, bit of an aside, but why, oh why, should small characters have an easier job of hitting large characters in HtH combat?

I mean, TertaMungo, who is 12 feet tall is fighting Glint Westwood, who is 6 feet tall. I really do not see, in a fistfight, how GW should have the advantage over TM there. It is not realistic, and indeed, long ago, Champions recognised this fact.

Ranged combat, no problemo, GW will have an easier time hitting TM than vice versa, but in hand to hand that reach advantage would be an utter killer: assuming similar strengths, defences and skill, GW wouldn't get near TM and wouldn't really be at any advantage if he did. OK his head is at nut height, that I'll give you, but the weight advantage if they were wrestling would all be on TMs side.

Thoughts?

[schir1964]

RealLemming,

You ever see the movie "The Mask Of Zorro"?
Sounds like you are talking about a fight similar to the one in this movie where Zorro ends up fighting someone who is twice his size.
Basically, Zorro could hit the larger fellow fine, but couldn't seem to do any damage, until he picked up a couple of cannon balls and hit him multiple times in the head.

So I don't think the penalty to hit is representing just misses, it may include hits that have no effect. Just to look at it from more of SFX view than a game mechanics view.

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Characters with growth don't take minuses to hit normal-sized characters but normal-sized characters take minuses to hit characters with shrinking. And characters with shrinking don't get plusses to hit normal-sized characters but normal-sized characters get plusses to hit characters with growth. I think the whole size thing is too complicated to figure out. :)
MitchellS,

I have document that discusses the whole size issue. It includes a more universal rule for handling combat penalties/bonuses due to size. That specific rule is somewhat simpler too.

Again, if anyone would like to have it, just email me at schir1964 @ netzero.com and I'll email it to you in whatever format you can handle.

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

RealLemming,

You ever see the movie "The Mask Of Zorro"?
Sounds like you are talking about a fight similar to the one in this movie where Zorro ends up fighting someone who is twice his size.
Basically, Zorro could hit the larger fellow fine, but couldn't seem to do any damage, until he picked up a couple of cannon balls and hit him multiple times in the head.

So I don't think the penalty to hit is representing just misses, it may include hits that have no effect. Just to look at it from more of SFX view than a game mechanics view.

Just My Humble Opinion

- Christopher Mullins


Ever seen a boxing match? Reach matters. :)

Y'see this is always something we'll run into 'cinematic reality' where the small, quick guy always wins, and actual reality where the big tough guy always wins (unless the small, quick guy is Bruce Lee, in which case, no contest: Bruce is already dead.

[PhilFleischmann]

Magnitude Man and Size Queen are fighting HTH. They both have the same Multipower with Growth and Shrinking slots. They have the same DEX, and the same CV, and no ranged attacks.

At normal size, they hit each other on 11-.
They shrink down to 1 cm high. Now, even though they're standing close up face to face, they only hit each other on a 3.
Then they grow to 100 m tall. Now they never miss each other, except on an 18.

This makes no sense.

Later, Size Queen is on her own and shrinks down to 1 cm. She is attacked by an ordinary cockroach. Since the cockroach doesn't have Shrinking (it's small all the time), does it not get a DCV bonus? If not, SQ hits the roach normally, but the roach can't hit SQ (except on a 3). If it does get the DCV bonus, they have a very hard time hitting each other. The same would hold true for a battle between two roaches or other small critters. Yet, ITRW, small critters like bugs and bacteria fight each other all the time.

As much as I dislike D20, I think they handled this correctly. Each +1 DCV for size should be balanced by a +1 OCV, so that equal opponents of the same size always hit each other on 11-, regardless of what size that is.

[nexus]

I compare the Growth or Shrinking values. Someone with 10 levels of Growth being attacked by someone with 5 gets DCV penalties for 5 Levels. If they both have 10 they hit each other normally. Seems to work as a rule of thumb.

[nexus]

With names like Magnitude Man and Size Queen they shouldn't be fighting, they should be dating.

:D

[Sean Waters]

Magnitude Man and Size Queen are fighting HTH. They both have the same Multipower with Growth and Shrinking slots. They have the same DEX, and the same CV, and no ranged attacks.

At normal size, they hit each other on 11-.
They shrink down to 1 cm high. Now, even though they're standing close up face to face, they only hit each other on a 3.
Then they grow to 100 m tall. Now they never miss each other, except on an 18.

This makes no sense.

Later, Size Queen is on her own and shrinks down to 1 cm. She is attacked by an ordinary cockroach. Since the cockroach doesn't have Shrinking (it's small all the time), does it not get a DCV bonus? If not, SQ hits the roach normally, but the roach can't hit SQ (except on a 3). If it does get the DCV bonus, they have a very hard time hitting each other. The same would hold true for a battle between two roaches or other small critters. Yet, ITRW, small critters like bugs and bacteria fight each other all the time.

As much as I dislike D20, I think they handled this correctly. Each +1 DCV for size should be balanced by a +1 OCV, so that equal opponents of the same size always hit each other on 11-, regardless of what size that is.

Good examples: as a matter of practice I tend to do what Nexus does and only worry about the relative sizes, but that has the disadvantage that you then have relative DCV: different DCV depending on who is attacking you.

The d20 solution works well to address that problem, but +1 OCV/+1DCV per size drop and -1OCV/-1DCV per size increase would have far more dramatic effects in a system that uses a bell curve mechanic like Hero.

On the raoch point, whoever built the roach should have increased the DCV to an appropriate point to reflect the DCV for something that size, but that brings me onto my meta-point: hitting a roach is not hard. Hitting something that size is not hard, even though, proportionally it is moving far faster than a full sized human you stamp on the blighter easily enough, so in my book it does not have a high DCV, at least not against HtH attacks from normal human sized opponents.

I continue to fail to understand why being small is considered an advantage in HtH combat. Anyone?

[PhilFleischmann]

The d20 solution works well to address that problem, but +1 OCV/+1DCV per size drop and -1OCV/-1DCV per size increase would have far more dramatic effects in a system that uses a bell curve mechanic like Hero.
It depends on where in the bell curve you're talking about.

Two equal opponents hit each other on 11-.
If one has +2 DCV, one hits on 11-, and the other on 9-, a difference of 2.
If one has +1 DCV and +1 OCV, then one hits on 10-, and the other on 12-, also a difference of 2.

And yes, a difference of 2 can be more dramatic or less dramatic on a bell curve. With a straight d20 the effects are the same regardless of the position on the "curve".

I came up with another radical and blasphemous idea regarding the bell curve, which I will start another thread about soon. Basically, the idea is to increase the granularity of the bell curve by rolling 3d12 instead of 3d6. The curve is exactly the same shape, but there is more room for fine tuning. The difference between 10- (50%) and 11- (62.5%) is 12.5 % on 3d6. With 3d12, the difference between 19- (50%) and 20- (56% IIRC) is only 6%.