My Millenium City feedback...

[Yamo]

Well, I got it and read it and here's my thoughts:

Pros:

1. City layout, infrastructure, and culture very well-detailed.

2. Neat NPCs. I simply love Mr. X, Shadowboxer, Scarlet Shield, Dr. Silverback, and the others.

3. Lots of neat in-jokes. Probably more than I can detect. I laughed a lot.

Cons:

1. The big emphasis on PSI really threw me. Frankly, I think it was a waste of space here. PSI just doesn't grab me in the least and I could think of many better things to put in place of its rather expansive treatment. A greater thematic variety of villians, perhaps, more plot seeds, more tips on integrating your campaigns PCs into MC, or more information on running Detroit/Millenium City in the Golden or Silver Ages. I really think the PSI stuff would have been better off in its own book or mixed-in with the next villian book. I don't think most GMs are going to get as much use out of them to justify the space they take up. I know I won't.

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially.

Now, don't get the impression that I didn't like MC. I did. After all, the two main things that I did enjoy ("city layout, infrastructure, and culture" and "neat NPCs") are easily the lion's share of the book.

I just wish that the space occupied by reams of PSI stuff was better used, that the Champions were absent, and that there had been less of an effort to portray MC as a shiny, and somewhat dull, utopia.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by Yamo

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?


I had the same reaction to this :(

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Yamo
MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham.

That is probably because Hudson City from Dark Champions is supposed to stand in for Gotham. (And Fells Point stands in for Bludhaven).

Hudson was extensivly covered in 4th Ed Dark Champs products, I suspect we will see alot of it when 5th Edition Dark Champs comes out.

[Yamo]

That is probably because Hudson City from Dark Champions is supposed to stand in for Gotham. (And Fells Point stands in for Bludhaven).

Hudson was extensivly covered in 4th Ed Dark Champs products, I suspect we will see alot of it when 5th Edition Dark Champs comes out.

I guess my point is that MC could have done it all with relatively little tweaking if only the "City of the Future" angle had been reduced or eliminated. I think the utopian aspects limit the setting more than they help it.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Yamo
I guess my point is that MC could have done it all with relatively little tweaking if only the "City of the Future" angle had been reduced or eliminated. I think the utopian aspects limit the setting more than they help it.

A valid point, but I think the utopian angle was a definate choice. It was just how Hero decided to do it. This is their "bright and shiny" superhero city, later on they will release their "urban abyss".

You can't be all things to all people without reducing how effectively you do any of it. In Metropolis there just aren't any Arkham Asylums. The two just clash. Batmanesce "gritty" gaming has a long association with Hudson in Hero Games and I think they would have angered alot of people by trying to change it. I for one run a game where the Kingpin would be really out of place, and am glad I don't have to edit him out of Millenium city.

Anyway, Hudson and the Harbinger are old favorites of Steve's, so I doubt they are going anywhere.

[Blue]

"Millenimu City" could have been nothing less than shiny and new. Otherwise they should have picked a different name.

[Jhamin]

Although, not to beat you up too much,

I also think the PSI charcters should have been in another book. Either in an expanded entry in CKC, or in their own supplament like in 4th Ed.

[Hermit]

Not to knock Yamo's opinion, but I have to say my own definitely diverges. Cool either way :) .



1. The big emphasis on PSI really threw me. Frankly, I think it was a waste of space here. PSI just doesn't grab me in the least and I could think of many better things to put in place of its rather expansive treatment. A greater thematic variety of villians, perhaps, more plot seeds, more tips on integrating your campaigns PCs into MC, or more information on running Detroit/Millenium City in the Golden or Silver Ages. I really think the PSI stuff would have been better off in its own book or mixed-in with the next villian book. I don't think most GMs are going to get as much use out of them to justify the space they take up. I know I won't.


Well, I didn't see it as that BIG an emphasis on PSI, there were notes on ARGENT, VIPER, and such in there. True, we get some more PSI agents, but we also got five solo villains and some juicy plot seeds. Though, I like PSI... a lot, so maybe I just can't be disapointed in that area. :)
I do wish there were more on ARGENT, but maybe that's for the best, so we can develop it on our own.




2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?


Shoot, I was thinking that once you counted in the Suburbs and North Detroit that the Champions can't handle it all. They aren't that hard to remove if you must, just subsitute what is said about the Champions for your PC team.




3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially.


Actually, I had my doubts to when I first read about MC in Champions Universe, but once I got the book... I think I started to see what the point was. Like the Author's notes said, this is a setting that shows a city that is NOT 'status quo', where progress is being made, in part due to the sacrifice of super heroes. Yes, the city is upbeat, positive, etc... just like Hudson City will be crumbling, and lost.

However, even the 'Utopia' has problems. Evil is in the hearts of men, not the archetecture, and Millennium City strikes me as eventually driving that point home. Crime will be forced to adapt, but it will be there. I have not decided, but between the chips and the Super Registration, I may start to play up the "Big Brother" scenerio that is the dark side of such an automated paradise. And you can bet technologically savvy super villains will be messing up the plumbing enough to make the averagne Lennie wonder if maybe they're too reliant on it.

[Kaeto]

Then there is the problem of getting around in the city. No using super vehicles here.

And the police can stop a escaping crook in his car dead just by sending a command to the computer that controls all cars in the city.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Kaeto
Then there is the problem of getting around in the city. No using super vehicles here.

And the police can stop a escaping crook in his car dead just by sending a command to the computer that controls all cars in the city.

Well, first off, there are super vehicles... the Champions have one. Land based team vehicles might have a problem, but those seem to be the exception anyways. Even then, fake chips are mentioned so the tech CAN be circumvented by a wiley gadgeeter

[Wormhole]

As far as the "shiny and new" part, that's because it is a new city, built over the ruins of Old Detroit. Of course, cities rarely stay shiny and new...

[Killer Shrike]

Heh heh.

I made pretty much the same comments last week here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2330&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

and got lambasted for it by Monolith. ;)

Glad to see Im not alone in my take on MC.....

[TheEmerged]

I finally gave up on my "FLGS" (which is neither F nor L and just barely G) once and for all. Hopefully my copies arrive from FRP soon so I can comment on this issue :D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Heh heh.

I made pretty much the same comments last week here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2330&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

and got lambasted for it by Monolith. ;)

Glad to see Im not alone in my take on MC.....
Well if it makes you feel any better, I do not agree with his points either. :)

1: PSI is a major villain group in Millennium City. We have known that since CKC was published. Many of us like PSI. It is one of the few villain teams in the new Champions Universe. Giving us the last few members of the team is a good thing IMO. Otherwise it might be several years before another product would have been able to fill-out the team for us. We already know there is no additional "Enemies" book schedules before 2005.

2: As I have already stated in the other thread, it is extremely common to have multiple hero teams in the same city. I have never played in a campaign yet where the players were the only heroes in the city. I prefer having other heroes in my city. I have a feeling most people do. Of course Yamo's reason for disliking the Champions is the opposite of Killer Shrike's. Killer Shrike feels that the NPC heroes should be more iconic and Yamo feels that the Champions are too iconic. I guess you just can't win. :)

If Marvel's New York could exist with the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, the Defenders, 2-3 X-Men teams, Power Pack, and more independent heroes than you can shake a stick at, Millennium City can survive with the Champions, a few indy heroes, and the players, IMO. It is just part of the genre.

3: Metropolis and Astro City are also a "utopian" cities if you think about it. The only thing which makes Millennium City different is the vehicle chips; and as I stated in the other post, those are easy to get around.

Overall if Millennium City only have a handful of dislikers then I guess that would be considered very successful.

[Hermit]

Well, it seems Millennium City, Vibora Bay, and Hudson City have been well thought out to give folks their pick of what setting they want to run in. Millennium City will have a very Metropolis/Progressive feel, where as Hudson City seems more 'Gotham/Gritty', and Vibora, well.... sounds like a Big Easy/Swamp Thing Voodoo kind of vibe going there. Mystics should feel right at home.

[Enforcer84]

I think the hero guys are doing a good job of giving us distinct areas; ofcourse having not seen any of the various city books I don't know for sure but their focus seems to be in the right place. There's a shining new city, a decaying morally bankrupt city, and a mystical, esoteric city. This alleviates the "all things to all people" problem that Jhamin spoke of.

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by Yamo

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?


I agree with Monolith that there's enough city for two teams plus some independents. I've been running a Champions game in Millennium City for the past 9 months or so. (It's great to finally have the book for more info.) The Champions haven't become an issue yet, except for an occasional mention in the news, and very occasional one-on-one PC-NPC interaction.

In Digital Hero #6, Dale Robbins had a good article on Iconic Characters. Granted, his was relating to Meriquai Falls, but if you change a few lyrics, the song is still the same. It all depends on how the GM uses, abuses, or ignores the iconic characters. Dale gave some suggestions on possible ways to handle the iconics.

As to the Dark Avenger thing, I'd be tempted to have the bad guys fear the PC more than Nighthawk. Or set up a brooding contest between the two. ;) A little competition can be a good thing.

One thing I'm toying with doing (though my players may argue with me over it) is to split the team -- half the players play their own characters allied with the other half playing some Champions. Then turn around and flip-flop them -- the other half plays their own characters while the first half plays the other Champions -- during the same span of time. (Kinda like a crossover issue.)

I ran a game set in NYC, and there was another team (the Guardians) protecting the city before the PC heroes arrived. It wasn't a problem; in fact, there was some friendly competition, and some great roleplaying when most of the Guardians were killed on 9/11 and the surviving two had to come to grips with things (with the PC heroes' help).

It all depends on how you handle things. If the GM keeps pulling the Champions into things, stealing the spotlight or saving the PCs, then yes, it's a problem. However, the real problem there is the GM, not the Champions. If the Champions weren't around, you'd probably have the same problem, but with PRIMUS or somebody else substituted for the iconic characters.

[Yamo]

I agree with Monolith that there's enough city for two teams plus some independents.

Yes, but that's not my point.

My point is that they're THE Champions. The ones from the main genre book. The ones the entire game is named after! They're not just some other team. At least not anymore than Galdalf is just some other wizard in a Lord of the Rings campaign or Darth Vader is just some other lightsaber baddie in a Star Wars campaign. They're iconic and therefore distracting and intimidating.

[Hermit]

So, essentially you guys have psyched yourselves out a bit and it's affecting your roleplay?

Seriously, not trying to be snide, just trying to find out where your'e coming from. I mean, while yes, the game is Champions, the Champion team themselves or less famous in the Champion Universe than the Justice Squadron, or Sentinels in NYC. The Champions are more like NOVA, young up and comers who have really been hitting the scene, and are quite popular.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo
Yes, but that's not my point.

My point is that they're THE Champions. The ones from the main genre book. The ones the entire game is named after! They're not just some other team. At least not anymore than Galdalf is just some other wizard in a Lord of the Rings campaign or Darth Vader is just some other lightsaber baddie in a Star Wars campaign. They're iconic and therefore distracting and intimidating.
Within the Champions Universe the Champions are not the icons. The Sentinels and the Justice Squadron are the iconic heroes of the universe. The Champions are just the team of heroes in Millennium City. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Monolith]

Hey Hermit? How dare you post that right before me! :)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Monolith
Hey Hermit? How dare you post that right before me! :)

How dare I?
I made my Ego roll, that's how :D

[Yamo]

Within the Champions Universe the Champions are not the icons. The Sentinels and the Justice Squadron are the iconic heroes of the universe. The Champions are just the team of heroes in Millennium City. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's a good way of rationalizing it within the setting, but reflexive metagame thinking is the problem here. You could explain in your Star Wars campaign that Darth Vader is a relatively minor player in your world compared to other Sith Lords, but to the players, he's still going to be DARTH FREAKIN' VADER, no matter what you say. They've seen the movies (read the genre book, in this case), so there's no getting around that. Period.

The Sentinels and Justice Squadron might be more important to the CU in theory, but how much space and how many individual mentions in Champions products are devoted to them as opposed to Defender and company?

Did I mention the name thing? THE Champions. "Champions" as in "THE GAME YOU'RE PLAYING RIGHT NOW."

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Yamo
That's a good way of rationalizing it within the setting, but reflexive metagame thinking is the problem here. You could explain in your Star Wars campaign that Darth Vader is a relatively minor player in your world compared to other Sith Lords, but to the players, he's still going to be DARTH FREAKIN' VADER, no matter what you say. They've seen the movies (read the genre book, in this case), so there's no getting around that. Period.

Yeah, except in this case, it's more like them freaking out over a begining Luke Skywalker... and the Champions won't even have his guarenteed role in the overall universe unless the GM wants. My suggestion if you're group simply can't help but think Metagame, change the names of the Champions.
Call them "The Guardians" (it worked before) or something, then shift names, and powers slightly.
Maybe the players won't feel as intimidated by Guardian, Steelborn, Nocturnal, Ruby and Witchfire. :)

[Nato]

Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. ;)

[Yamo]

Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. ;)

True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support it.

I also read them and form opinions, of course. Opinions which I share here. ;)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Yamo


I also read them and form opinions, of course. ;)

Trouble maker :D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo
The Sentinels and Justice Squadron might be more important to the CU in theory, but how much space and how many individual mentions in Champions products are devoted to them as opposed to Defender and company?
Well, it is a given that the Sentinel and Justice Squadron will not be mentioned in Millennium City, but I think there are more mentions of those groups in Champions Universe than there are the Champions. If you have read through Champions Universe you will see many heroes mentioned, and some of them are quite iconic. Millennium City is the only superhero city we have so far, and so the Champions take a prominant position because of that, but when Vibora Bay comes out you will probably not see the name Champions mentioned as anything more than passing.

If DOJ ever decides to do a CU New York I am sure you will see how iconic the other teams really are.


Did I mention the name thing? THE Champions. "Champions" as in "THE GAME YOU'RE PLAYING RIGHT NOW."
I guess I do not understand your point. There are 10 superhero teams operating in the CU United States. The Champions, by all accounts, are the weakest of those 10, not including the Ravenswood cadets. Just because they have the name "Champions" does not mean they are anything special. They are just an example team, designed to show players how to build 350 point characters; and even then there are flaws in the design.

The Champions are the only superhero team we have writeups for, but they are not special. I am very much looking forward to seeing Darren's writeups for the Sentinels in the upcoming Digital Hero. Then we shall see iconic heroes. :)

[Nato]

Originally posted by Yamo
"Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. ;) "

True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support the it.

I also read them and form opinions, of course. ;)

That's definitely cool of course.

I've personally never had a problem with my players co-existing with the Champions, and I tend to use a pretty by-the-book CU campaign. I can see everyone's points but I think it mainly boils down to a per-game basis. If it is a stigma for one's players, definitely change them around.

[Hermit]

There is another option, especially if your team hasn't really formed fully, or gotten a base yet.

SEMI SPOILER BELOW

In the 5 E Champion's Universe book, one finds the adventure "Return of the Destroyer".

Don't run your players through it. Instead, assume the Champions went through it, discovered Destroyer was still alive. They tried to warn the rest of the world, but... unlike that adventure, the not-so-good Doctor decided to announce his return in a more personal way than mere satilite sabatoge.

He killed the Champions.

Perhaps he televised it (Along with his return) hoping to break the spirits of any new heroes who hoped to oppose him.

Maybe he wanted to slow down the news he was alive just a bit longer.

Maybe someone annoyed him.

It doesn't matter. Be it televised, or one Champion surviving long enough to warn the world before he/she dies from internal bleeding... the Champions have died.

The citizens of Millennium City will be in shock. Their brightest hope slaughtered by the dark figure they thought lain to rest forever.

In the mean time, Homestead, SOCRATES , and more go unclaimed and unused.
Your PCs have to be the ones to carry on the torch now. They suddenly become the sole super hero team of Millennium City, the Champions nothing more than another group of martyrs at the Doctor's gauntleted hands.

[Pattern Ghost]

I really don't see how anyone can be intimidated by the Champions, but if they're a distraction, get rid of them.

If you're not interested in playing supers, then I can't see how your gaming group can be distracted by the Champions in the first place.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Yamo
"Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming. ;) "

True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support the it.

I also read them and form opinions, of course. ;)

That's definitely cool of course.

I've personally never had a problem with my players co-existing with the Champions, and I tend to use a pretty by-the-book CU campaign. I can see everyone's points but I think it mainly boils down to a per-game basis. If it is a stigma for one's players, definitely change them around.

[Haerandir]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yamo, I thought you didn't even care about superhero gaming.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Yamo
True, but since I love HERO System so much, I gladly buy all of DoJ's books to support it.


Well, here I think I see the crux of your dilemma. If you haven't played with the Champions in your campaign before, then you can't possibly view them with the affectionate contempt even a minimally experienced Champions player quickly develops. They're not iconic and intimidating, believe me. Any more than the generic "how to design a D&D character" thief from the D&D PHB is iconic and intimidating.

It's not as bad as last edition, where you had Seeker getting his butt kicked on the cover of every other supplement, but give them time. Even in 'Millenium City', it's Dr. Silverback on the cover going toe-to-toe with Firewing, while Defender lurks unnoticed on the back cover.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Haerandir
Even in 'Millenium City', it's Dr. Silverback on the cover going toe-to-toe with Firewing, while Defender lurks unnoticed on the back cover.
That is because ape pictures sell books. :)

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by Monolith
That is because ape pictures sell books. :)

Exactly! Dr. Silverback moves units. Defender does not. If anything, we should be concerned about Dr. Silverback overshadowing both the Champions and the PCs. I just hope they don't make a plush Dr. Silverback doll. That'd be the end of it for the Champions.

[allen]

Originally posted by Haerandir
Exactly! Dr. Silverback moves units. Defender does not. If anything, we should be concerned about Dr. Silverback overshadowing both the Champions and the PCs. I just hope they don't make a plush Dr. Silverback doll. That'd be the end of it for the Champions.

Heck, take a closer look and you'll see that Witchcraft has already been knocked out by Firewing... although I'd guess red-heads move more units than talking apes.

[AnotherSkip]

Uh, actually, rumor has it that the first Dr Silverback Pez dispensers are allready hitting shelves.....

[Haerandir]

The 6th Edition Superhero sourcebook will be called, not 'Champions', but 'Dr. Silverback and his Slightly Amazing Friends'.

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by allen
Heck, take a closer look and you'll see that Witchcraft has already been knocked out by Firewing... although I'd guess red-heads move more units than talking apes.

Thanks, I'd overlooked Witchcraft...but why not Nighthawk? After CU, I'd looked forward to him taking up the mantle of "the martial artist with weapons but no weapons elements who gets pasted on every cover".

Just to throw my vote in...it really seems to boil down to whether you can shake the feeling that a "Champions" campaign is always going to feel like it ought to be about the "Champions" (it needn't be, but it's a natural association to make). Certainly, they are neither so powerful nor so well-established as to overshadow the PCs. Personally, I find the existence of another team of roughly equal prowess to offer several positive features:

Noncombat Roleplay: sometimes, it's fun to have two groups of peers hang out, talk shop, swap stories etc.. It can help players flesh out their heroic personae in a fairly relaxed setting. There is also the love interest option.

Friendly Rivalry: It's hard to have a bitter rivalry with the Champions, because they're mostly sweethearts. But there are possibilities. A grinning, swashbuckling streetfighter and Nighthawk might respect each other's work but clash badly in the style department (plenty of room for comedy there). Similarly, an angst-ridden, paranoid-of-humans mutant (or any hero who is grim and gritty) might find Sapphire exasperating. Moreover, an occult hero with spooky SFX (like an avenging ghost, or a possession victim who escaped demonic control but retained some infernal powers) might have a rather tense relationship with Witchcraft, at least initially. It could even be completely lighthearted: how about a charity fundraiser basketball match between the PCs and the Champions?

Also, it's a classic plotline to interweave initial rivalry with romantic tension.

Plot Kicker: Distress signal from Defender! The Champions are in tr-! Very easy way to get the action rolling.

Ejector Seat: It's not good to script things so that the NPCs rescue the PCs, but on occasion even an experienced GM will end up saying, "Oh God, what have I done?". Underestimated the bad guys' strength? PCs made a minor but costly error? Completely freakish die rolls? The key to using NPCs as cavalry is to always think "minimum force". Don't have the entire Champions team come smashing into the VIPER base to spring the PCs...have Nighthawk show up to pick the cell door locks so that they have a decent chance to fight (or sneak, or bluff) their way out. Sure, they might have to put up with his smug looks for a while...but that will make it that much more satisfying when they save his butt down the road.

Temp Service: Sometimes, none of the players feels like playing a mystic...or a detective...or a techie. This can leave gap's in the team's repertoire of skills and Knowledge. Certainly, the GM should tailor adventures to the PCs' capabilities as much as possible, but it's good to have the NPCs around as sources of information. "Hey, we could go ask Bethany about this sceptre thingy..." To keep the PCs from feeling too dependent, have the NPCs come to them sometimes to ask a return favor; it not only balances the ego scales, but can serve as a plot kicker (see above).

[Hermit]

Marchwarden, that was a great post. I definitely plan on ripping off ...uhm being inspired by some of your scenerio ideas with the Champions and the PC team. The Players seem to like the setting more and more as new (to them) parts of it are unveiled. I may make Scarlet Archer's patrons of them all yet :)

[Killer Shrike]

RE: Marchwarden: Great post. Well said.


RE: HERMIT: Kill em ALL: Excellent idea, Smithers! Release the Hounds! There is a part of me that SO wants to do this, but Im TRYING to keep THIS campaign light and 'super-heroey'.

[TheEmerged]

Actually, my biggest problem after my first run-through of MC is -- the Inquisitor's COM score. 8? I thought 8 was supposed to be "normal" now?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
Actually, my biggest problem after my first run-through of MC is -- the Inquisitor's COM score. 8? I thought 8 was supposed to be "normal" now?
Average runs from 6 to 10, so 8 is basically the average of average. :)

[TheEmerged]

Yeah, but this is the Inquisitor we're talking about here. I know he was only an 8 in Mind Games, but that's back when 10 was supposed to be the average. Take a good look at his description and tell me that's someone of average attractiveness :D This certainly is going to force me to re-examine my belief that I'd be a COM 6 in HERO...

RE: Dr. Silverback and the Flunkies. Don't let his point total fool you. Sucker's got all of 11 rDef unless he invests his VPP on it, all of a 7 DCV, and no skill levels with his default ranged attack. If he really found himself against Firewing (10 OCV and 5 skill levels he can apply), he'd be taking 8 BODY a phase from slot 4.

Outside of his skills & perks, he looks more like a 350 character -- then again, clearly his skills and perks are the main emphasis of this character anyway. I'm already enjoying the idea of what's going to happen when he meets the PC's :D

[Killer Shrike]

To me, Dr. Silverback screams 'Hank Pym'!!!! Im not impressed, but everyone else seems to be fascinated by the idea.

Im not sure what people find so engaging about intelligent apes. :confused:

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
To me, Dr. Silverback screams 'Hank Pym'!!!! Im not impressed, but everyone else seems to be fascinated by the idea.
I play him like the Beast from the X-men. To me it seems like a perfect match: intelligent, scientific, linguist, easy-going personality, and ape body structure. I'm thinking Dr. Silverback and Sapphire: Champions Universe's Beast and Dazzler. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Err....I meant Hank McCoy--sorry getting my super scientist former avengers confused......

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Yamo
3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially.


This actually sounds like a plus to me. I don't normally get sourcebooks and one major reason is that they tend to be rather generic, as others have already said, too much "all things to all people". This makes me think it's a little more worthwhile. For me a sourcebook should have stuff I'm less likely or less inclined to think of.

[TheEmerged]

RE: The Utopian Complaint. Actually, I'm planning to play the Utopia thing up quite a bit once my players decide to go there (the next adventure is already fixed). To me, the utopia thing is great because it'll allow me to play up against that :D

[allen]

Originally posted by Monolith
I'm thinking Dr. Silverback and Sapphire: Champions Universe's Beast and Dazzler. :)

oof... that 'beast and dazzler' reference was a blast from the past... what was the mini-series called? "Beauty and the Beast"? mutant gladiators right? crazy.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

RE: HERMIT: Kill em ALL: Excellent idea, Smithers! Release the Hounds! There is a part of me that SO wants to do this, but Im TRYING to keep THIS campaign light and 'super-heroey'.

Well, dying attempting to stop evil can be quite dramatic, but yeah, the 'light' would be thrown out the window. I'd go with Marchwarden's ideas then (And I mean that litterally, as I will as well :) )

I think at least one of my characters wants to take Cazuloun home with her.

"He's just so cute... give him a hot wheel to heat or something."

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
To me, Dr. Silverback screams 'Hank Pym'!!!! Im not impressed, but everyone else seems to be fascinated by the idea.

Im not sure what people find so engaging about intelligent apes. :confused:

Dude! They're like <i>apes</i>, man. And they can talk!!!!


Keith "It's a Madhouse! A Madhoooouuuse!!!" Curtis

[Killer Shrike]

"Hmmm....clearly the primate "Cornelius" must die. In the meantime, kill this "Keith Curtis" primate to make sure the equipment still works. Then, advance the "Master Plan" by 2 weeks; Im planning to wrap the conquest of this dimension up early. Now, away, for I must prepare myself for the obligatory Evil Laugh (TM)!"

<h3>Mwahahahaha</h3>

"Oh...wait...thats right, Im not really evil, Im just avariscious on a pancosmic scale; my people are happy and have excellent state-provided medical plans at affordable premiums...much like Canada of Earth 613...

Whats a pangalactic conquering girl to do? I suppose Ill have to settle for an 'Engimatic Chuckle' instead......."


--Istvatha V'han, in the process of overrunning the Planet of the Apes........