The new site art: Too superhero-centric?

[Yamo]

The new CCK art is great and all, but does it really highlight HERO's strengths as a universal system, or does it raise the specter of the old "superheroes with some other junk tossed in" days?

There are plenty of illustrations in HERO products of sci-fi, fantasy, modern day action, martial arts and other characters. Why not colorize some of them?

As someone that adores HERO but has no love whatsoever for "Champions" or the superhero entertainment genre in general, I would much prefer a blend of character types showing up on the site when I load a new page.

Little equal time, please?

[Doug Limmer]

I don't mind the superhero art myself, but I will say that, after seeing the changing pictures, I was expecting some non-superhero ones.

There could be some interesting Ninja Hero characters or Terran Empire aliens thrown in the mix, couldn't there? Of course, they might still end up looking like they're superheroic (aliens and ninjas are in comics, too, after all).

Maybe an even greater variety of pictures once Fantasy Hero is ready?

[Monolith]

I believe the issue is that these are the pictures which Nato has colored, because he is a superhero fan. The fact that he might not have any interest in Star Hero or Terran Empire means that there might not be any non-superhero color pictures available.

Also keep in mind that while SH and TE are great books there are not as many character portraits to choose from (Scourges Of The Galaxy will not be published until 2004). I would certainly like to see some of the alien races from TE colored, but I imagine that is quite low on Nato's to-do list.

[BobGreenwade]

Well, Nate should like SH and TE; he did draw illustrations in both books. ;)

While I disagree with the "thumbs down" icon for this thread, I do agree that characters from other genre books would be good to see here. Some of the sample NPCs from Ninja Hero, Star Hero, and Terran Empire can be a good start. :)

[Hermit]

My first thought was 'geez...they just got it up, cut em some freaking slack' but Yamo might have a point in that a variety would be even better.

THat aside, even if we couldn't get any other images, I'd prefer them to none at all. It's nice 'site eye candy' (espcially Howler ;) )

Thanks Nato

[Nato]

Well heck, I like coloring everything guys. Iv'e just been coloring all theses supers pieces for my own games and sent them to the company for them to use. I definitely am interested in other genres and think I will definitely do some from the other books. The aliens in TE ROCK and there's some pretty kickin' martial artists out there in other books. Hell, I'll even do some of the vehicles when I get a chance. It's all good. I'm glad people are digging the pics on the side. I think it does add a lot of visual interest to the site. Good job Ben and Dan.

[Yamo]

Well heck, I like coloring everything guys. Iv'e just been coloring all theses supers pieces for my own games and sent them to the company for them to use. I definitely am interested in other genres and think I will definitely do some from the other books. The aliens in TE ROCK and there's some pretty kickin' martial artists out there in other books. Hell, I'll even do some of the vehicles when I get a chance. It's all good. I'm glad people are digging the pics on the side. I think it does add a lot of visual interest to the site. Good job Ben and Dan.

Well, if DoJ isn't paying you to do it (which I assumed they were), I guess they'll have to settle for whatever you want to color. Fair enough.

I just like variety.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Nato I think it does add a lot of visual interest to the site. Good job Ben and Dan.

It certainly does! I was going to post some congrats to Ben, and then I saw this thread.

Nato, the coloring is excellent; you've really brought a lot of these characters to life. Frankly, it makes me long to see color HERO products... but we've already been down that road. ;)

[Nato]

I just colored Andrew C's portrait of the Mon'dabi before bedtime. Maybe Ben will post it soon.

[Ben Seeman]

I must admit, when I first saw that there was a complaint about the rotating character art I was a bit bugged, but Yamo makes a completely valid point. And Monolith responded exactly as I would have. And then Nato went and did exACTly what I would have asked of him.

More art will definitely be added to the rotation. This is just the first day using all of the colored art that I had. As more art comes in to me it will be added to the rotation.

Don't ask why I'm answering this at 3 in the morning.

[Doug Limmer]

I just noticed that I posted a couple of messages on the pictures, and didn't mention the most important thing: I like them! The coloring job is good (as far as someone who knows nothing about coloring can tell :)). Thanks to all who worked to make it happen.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Nato
Hell, I'll even do some of the vehicles when I get a chance. It's all good. If you're going to do that, Nate, how about starting with that totally rockin' space yacht from TUV? :D

(If you're taking requests, I'd also love to see the Argos Exploration characters done up in color....) ;)

[Monolith]

You know, now that the pic of the Mon'dabi has been added to the site it just makes me think of my favorite Spider-man villain. :)

[Yamo]

I like the Mon'dabi. He/she is neato keen. :D

[BobGreenwade]

Maybe Ghenak Vaa'resh can be added for variety in Mon'dabi.

(Me, I'm crazy about Mon'dabi in general. Once I have both TE & the Spacer's Tookit, I'm going to start working up materials for starting a campaign that takes place on Mon'da -- with Human PCs, of course.)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by buzz
Frankly, it makes me long to see color HERO products... but we've already been down that road. ;)

Yes, but the more people who keep trying to use the road increases the likeliness that HERO will build said road. ;)

MORE COLOR PLEASE!!!

[Jeff T.]

The Mon'dabi looks just like the Gorn from Star Trek in my opinion.

[Steve Long]

Yes, but the more people who keep trying to use the road increases the likeliness that HERO will build said road.

No, it really doesn't.

It makes no difference how many people demand the road if there's no budget for building it.

[JmOz]

However I am sure that if you are willing to give a few G's to steve and crew (enough to cover the extra art work and print run) they will be happy to do it for you, they'll even give you a free copy of the product in thanks for the donation...


Steve corrent me if I am wrong...

Note I have no affiliation with Hero Games and could be dead wrong

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Steve Long
No, it really doesn't.

It makes no difference how many people demand the road if there's no budget for building it.

Just increase our taxes. ;)

Seriously, I was just making a simple statement for the future. I'm aware of the 'small company, low budget' argument. However, are you 'absolutely adamant' that there won't be color HERO products for the next 3 years, or NEVER? Sure, if only 5 people are clamoring for color...understood. But what if eventually 500 people are clamoring for it, or 5,000 or 50,000?

Also, if Hero IS the best system out there, shouldn't it get the same treatment as M&M, SAS, and others. I can't see these companies putting these books out in full color if they're taking massive financial losses just cuz they paid alot extra for full color. It seems to me full color is the 'wave of the future'.

Hey, I'm just one fan speculating here though. I don't know the particular ins and outs, this is just the way I see it from an outsider's point of view.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by JmOz
However I am sure that if you are willing to give a few G's to steve and crew (enough to cover the extra art work and print run) they will be happy to do it for you, they'll even give you a free copy of the product in thanks for the donation...


No need to be snide, JmOz. That statement paints me as pretty naive.

I am perfectly willing to pay the extra $5-15 for a full-color book, though.

Understood, that others don't feel that way. Many say, "I'm just there for actual content". Fine, let's not put ANY art in the books then. The argument can go both ways, maybe I'm just at one end of the debate. I don't think its THAT extreme a position when other companies are doing it on a regular basis, and I'm not referring to massive cash machines like WOTC.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starlord
Also, if Hero IS the best system out there, shouldn't it get the same treatment as M&M, SAS, and others. I can't see these companies putting these books out in full color if they're taking massive financial losses just cuz they paid alot extra for full color. It seems to me full color is the 'wave of the future'.
I think the major difference is that d20 has a larger fanbase. This means larger print runs, which in turn mean cheaper printing costs. Freedom City, for example for M&M, probably printed 25,000+ copies (the publisher's forum on EnWorld had most publisher's stating that they print between 15,000 and 25,000 for hardback books). Millennium City, on the other hand, was probably printed in the 5,000 unit range. Assuming the old publishing axiom is true, it cost $2.20 per book to print MC. It cost $3.30 per book to print FC. If Freedom City were only printed with 5,000 copies that 3.30 could easily triple.

I think it was Mark M. from GOO who stated that the deluxe edition of SAS should have cost $80.00. At $45.00 GOO was probably lucky if they made back their cost, but fortunately for them the intention was to reuse the material in a B&W format, thus allowing them to spread out all the production costs over a cheaper printing format.

This leaves DOJ with only three options:
• Produce 25,000 copies of a book so that you can match printing costs (of course if it takes 10 years to sell all the inventory you are out 10 years worth of money-cost. No small company can afford to tie-up $50,000 for 10 years. Just look at how much old inventory DOJ is already carrying from 1st through 4th edition)

• Produce 5,000 books and sell them for $80.00 each (I am sure the fanbase would just love that. There are probably not more than a couple of hundred of us die-hards willing to pay $80.00 for a 200 page color book.)

• Continue on as they are and wait to see if the fanbase does double or triple, getting them to the point where they can make color books (this is the plan being used, but the drawback here is that the "flash" of the other systems are pulling potential new fans toward those books, and thus they are not giving a good second look to the HERO System products).

I am one of those fans who would pay $80.00 for a full-color copy of CKC, or would pay $40.00 for a full-color 200 page book, but I think I am the rare exception. I am fortunate enough to have money to “blow.” Most gamers are not in that same boat; and I can still remember some of the “discussion” which went on about the cost of FREd about a year ago. :)

[MarkusDark]

When compared to the current customer base and sales of new products and with future sales progressions mapped out using current number data, I think that a full color 200+ page book would not be cost effective. Now to say 'never' is always a harsh word to use. I would imagine that if enough things fell into place, then sure, a color run would be just fine. But such things would be along the lines of:

-Hero Games wins Write in Vote at Origins
-Such a win sparks huge interest in the game
-Hero products sell faster than all of the d20 games combined

and so on. And, as nice as that would be, there would be other areas that the money would first need to go to before the color work - such as to the sudden need of tripling their staff to keep up with the new demands from the gaming community.

To me, artwork is nice dressing to the important aspect - the written material. With current staffing and plans, I am personally amazed that DoJ has given themselves what I feel is such a 'amitious' goal of producing so much in so little time.

[Yamo]

I just spotted a ninja on the left side of the screen. Good stuff, Nato! I'm lovin' it.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Starlord
No need to be snide, JmOz. That statement paints me as pretty naive.

I am perfectly willing to pay the extra $5-15 for a full-color book, though.

Understood, that others don't feel that way. Many say, "I'm just there for actual content". Fine, let's not put ANY art in the books then. The argument can go both ways, maybe I'm just at one end of the debate. I don't think its THAT extreme a position when other companies are doing it on a regular basis, and I'm not referring to massive cash machines like WOTC.

To paint you as naive was not the intent nor to actualy be snide, for that i apoligise, I was trying to be a smart alec (the difference between that and snide has to do with the desire to be actualy cruel or condesending to the recepiant of the barb)

I agree with you color would be nice, just I would personaly not pay for it (well actualy I would LOVE to see the book be printed using 2 colors (Think of some bibles that use red text for the words of Jesus)

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Starlord

I am perfectly willing to pay the extra $5-15 for a full-color book, though.

Understood, that others don't feel that way. Many say, "I'm just there for actual content". Fine, let's not put ANY art in the books then.

The only reason I buy full color M&M books is that I work at a game shop and get them at cost. If I had to pay full price, I wouldn't bother with that game's products at all.

I would actually prefer no art. Or only about 1/4 to 1/5 of the art that are in the books now. I'd be a happy camper that way. But I know I'm different.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Steve Long
No, it really doesn't.

It makes no difference how many people demand the road if there's no budget for building it.

Not if you live in Virginia (LOL)!

After reading the rest of this tread and not seeing it, has anyone asked if you accept art from the general fan community?

Aroooo

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by JmOz
To paint you as naive was not the intent nor to actualy be snide, for that i apoligise, I was trying to be a smart alec (the difference between that and snide has to do with the desire to be actualy cruel or condesending to the recepiant of the barb)

No harm, no foul. I probably came on too strong anyway. :cool:

[Steve Long]

After reading the rest of this tread and not seeing it, has anyone asked if you accept art from the general fan community?

If you mean, for publication in our books, no, we probably wouldn't accept that. We want to pay our artists a fair price for their work, which must follow our art specs. We often need the art quickly, or done just so. All that means that "volunteer" art really wouldn't be appropriate/work for us.

If you mean, for use on the website or something, for that you'll have to write Ben and ask him. ;)