"So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

[proditor]

One of the time honored questions of comic geekdom, what's up with Superman's vulnerability to Magic?

I have my own view on how it works, but I wanted to hear what other people think. How would you ruun it in a game? Or, possibly how have you ruin it in your games? (Since I know I've seen a Daxamite and a Kryptonian write-up at some point.)

This is not a DC/Marvel thread, but feel free to use examples from either universe to illustrate a point.

[Supreme Serpent]

Our group runs "vulnerable to magic" and "doesn't work vs. magic" as extending to magic weapons. So, Supes is probably in for a bad day.

Of course, you could argue that "divine" is a seperate special effect, and that Thor's hammer more accurately falls into that. Not so bad for Supes, bad for vampires. :)

[Hawksmoor]

Superman's STUN and Body are not "Vulnerable to Magic", his Damage Reduction and Enhanced PD are. End result Superman gets his Kryptonian Block knocked into the next state and says:

"Owwww!!!!! I can't get hit by him again."

Superman then proceeds to use his seldom applied superspeed to stay ahead, just slightly of Thor's attacks. Since Thor is a very superior fighter, Thor manages to manuver Superman into yet another hammer blow or two before someone like Wonder Woman investigates the battle that has Superman bloody and Metropolis in slight disarray. After WW arrives the battle turns quickly south for Thor as he mistakes Diana for Sif and gooses her butt.

Ragnarok ensues!

[John Desmarais]

One of the time honored questions of comic geekdom, what's up with Superman's vulnerability to Magic?

I have my own view on how it works, but I wanted to hear what other people think. How would you ruun it in a game? Or, possibly how have you ruin it in your games? (Since I know I've seen a Daxamite and a Kryptonian write-up at some point.)

This is not a DC/Marvel thread, but feel free to use examples from either universe to illustrate a point.

Personally, I've never considered Thor's "bash with hammer" to be a magical attack. Now, the hammer is quite capable of throwing out magic attacks, but in the comics I've read Thor rarely seems to use those abilities, prefering the more "direct" approach of simply using the mallet for a few extra dice of HA.

That said however, depending on my mood, I might consider the extra HA dice (not the full STR + HA attack) to be magical if I thought it was important to the game.

[CBikle]

Pre-CRISIS, it seemed like Supe's vulnerability was represented by most of his powers and characteristics bought with the limit "weakened or non-existant when exposed or surrounded by magic or kryptonite" (-1/4 I guess) which usually meant that magic could hurt him as though he were normal (PD and ED were probably no higher than 8 if that).

Getting hit with Mjolnir is a little tricky. Assuming it's a HA, I'd say that the extra dice of damage would get past the Kryptonian defenses and only blocked by Supe's inherent ones(I don't see Thor's STR as being "magical" in this case). This involves a lot of math so I'd probably just say that Superman gets half his total defenses vs. the damage, just to keep it simple.

In the comics I've read, I've never seen anything to indicate that the magic vulnerability was represented as any type of Champions vulnerability disad(although you could make an argument that Supes and most other silver-age characters had a 3X effect vulnerability vs. transforms).

[Hawksmoor]

Actually, if you wanted to get really arcane you could say that Thor is magical. Just like Silver Banshee and Necron, both of which have had Superman flat on his red behind.

Superman is not *vulnerable* to magic per se. He is just no better or worse than defending against it than a regular everyday person on the street that just happens to have tremendous experience and indominable willpower.

Given that, a hit by a God using a powerful magical weapon would really really hurt Superman. Not kill him, Superman has that lesser known superior recovery power called Invulnerability that prevents him from dying unless it is a milestone issue facing a universal foe. What it does do is make him bleed and possibly break a bone or four on the hit. Superman can't take a hit form Mjonir any better than Batman. Thus he breaks.

Make sense?

[Red Knight]

Well.... In Kingdom Come, the Novel, it addresses the issue of Supes vulnerability to magic. The basic gist is that Supes is a man of Science, the man of tomorrow and magic represents the opposite of science. SO.. Supes is vulnerable to it b/c he doesn't understand it. NOW.. in Kingdom Come (a personal favorite of mine) there is a great fight between Supes and Capt.Marvel (Shazam). Marvel is kicking Supes blue butt all over the place and then in a moment of enlightenment... Supes grasps the concept of magic and the energies of th universe. (insert deep philisophical means here) and suddenly, he stands up and grabs marvel by the mouth to shut him up. Needless to say... Supes defeats marvel and continues on his way.

As far as Thor goes... I would rule that the weapon, even though it is magical is still a kinetic weapon. I might allow 3/4 defenses -vs- the hammer to represent the magical aura.. Now if Thor summoned a thunderbolt... now we are talking problems.

[keithcurtis]

THis is an oooooooooold debate with no answer. It depends on the writer. Therefore, opinon is the only thing that matters. It can't be argued.
My personal opinon was that the events in the recent DC/Marvel crossover pegged it perfectly. Mjolnir would <i>hurt</i>, but it wouldn't be like a bullet through tissue paper.
My take on the Supes/Magic thing is that he has human vulnerability to magic spells and to supernatural beings whose nature is something other than physical. A troll is magical, but it shouldn't be able to take out Superman with one punch. Dracula is magical, and his vampire powers should work on Superman. By this light, Loki would be far more effective against Superman than Thor. Thor would be better served by opening a portal that ships Superman off to Hel than to hit him with the hammer.

Keith "But even enough hits with that hammer should take out Superman. He's <i>Thor</i> ferodinssake!" Curtis

[OddHat]

SUpes suddenly gets a sympatheic writer and remembers how fast he can be. He catches the hammer, proves worthy, and the Beta-Ray Bill story arc repeats.

[Hermit]

SUpes suddenly gets a sympatheic writer and remembers how fast he can be. He catches the hammer, proves worthy, and the Beta-Ray Bill story arc repeats.

PHhhpt... come on, be realistic... Norse Gods and Alien men who are solar powered I'll believe... but sympatheic writers? I'm not sure they exist.

;)

[Supreme]

Incredibly precise comments from Keith aside...

The way Superman's vulnerability is phrased in the dialogue is not how it gets played out in any of the battles. In the dialogue Superman has only normal human resistances to magic. In battle, Superman has reduced resistance to normal magic attacks, and normal human resistance to non-normal attacks (mental powers, power drains, etc.). The way, I'd write it up would be that Superman has whopping high defenses and 75% Damage Reduction which doesn't work vs magical attacks. He also has all the extra defenses (Life Support, Power Defense, Flash Defense, etc.) which don't work against magic at all. Also, it seems that Superman's CON is never reduced under any circumstances (including deprivation of Solar Energy).

[Constantine]

i believe the way my GM did it in our D-Marvel-c campaign was that Kryptonians didn't get their damage reduction vs. magic, and had a 1.5 vulnerability as well. Still, with all the stun they had, it was very hard to bring them down.

[Champsguy]

As keithcurtis said, it's varied, depending on the writer. So there is no "right" answer, because not even DC can get it straight.

BUT... if you wonder how I'd do it...

I'd give him his base PD and ED against it. In our games, we've got a house limitation called "permeable". Basically, any power of the appropriate sfx is automatically considered Penetrating if you've got permeable on your defenses. So Supes has 60 PD and ED, permeable to red sun and magic attacks. Even a 6D6 magic bolt EB will hurt Supes, at least a little. His Damage Reduction doesn't work against it, either. Finally, none of his special defenses (Flash and Power Defense, etc) work against magic. Give him a 1.5 vulnerability to Stun, Body, and Effect vs magic, and you're good.

So, when he gets hit by Thor's 26D6 "Mjolnir Whap", he's gonna take... (math)... umm... a lot of Stun.

[Marduk]

Supe's is difficult to build accurately in any system, but if you’re going to do it champions is the way to go.

When dealing with the man of steels Invulnerability ridiculous amounts dmg reduction may not be the way to go. You have to ask yourself what does it take to wind him, knock him out, or generally make him acknowledge he was hurt?

I built superman for fun and the most difficult thing to develop was his super spd. If you read the comics he’s in, you'll notice when he uses it there's never a flurry of blows...ever!

His super speed is best thought of as quick movement and response time and has little to do with the number of times he can hit a man in one secound (ie high ocv 12-14 and Impresive dex around 24-27).

Thor for this reason would trade blows at a virtually equal rate. Supe's Would be beat because Thor got all his power (minus super speed) plus he's a far superior fighter. Thors hammer is mystical uru enchanted by odin it does truck loads of dmg and magically sparks with lightening 70% of the time it hits(ie. blows are magical in nature). If not for MaJonir the battle would lean in Superman’s favour. Thor fought Gladiator around issue 36 of the last series (I think). If you want a general Idea of how the brawl would go minus magical weakness track this comic down

[levi]

...Getting hit with Mjolnir is a little tricky. Assuming it's a HA, I'd say that the extra dice of damage would get past the Kryptonian defenses and only blocked by Supe's inherent ones(I don't see Thor's STR as being "magical" in this case). This involves a lot of math so I'd probably just say that Superman gets half his total defenses vs. the damage, just to keep it simple....

Well, just to needlessly complicate things, Thor wears a magical belt that enhances his STR. I love these discussions and I am glad that no one has (yet) unreasonably stated that one character would dominate the other.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

The definition of Superman's vulnerability varies from "able to withstand any physical attack regardless of power source, but his Power Defense doesn't keep him from being enchanted into a newt" to "Weakened and perhaps knocked out by just being in the same room as an artifact-level weapon." I prefer the former. Superman would be affected by a magic weapon if the magic was something subtle enough to bypass his Invulnerability. He has high resistance to impact and lightning, but none to magical Drains and Transforms.

[nexus]

Well, just to needlessly complicate things, Thor wears a magical belt that enhances his STR. I love these discussions and I am glad that no one has (yet) unreasonably stated that one character would dominate the other.

Superman would like so -totally- own Thor its not even funny. Superman once moved the Earth in issue 2 of "Forgotten Tales of Hyberpole" He'd just like, ya know use his Super breath to knock Thor into orbit. Then what's he gonna do? Thor controls wind nd stuff to fly. No air in space, Hammer Boy! Then Superman, who never kills nobody would decide to finish him and just knock Thor into the sun.

:D

[GestaltBennie]

Superman would like so -totally- own Thor its not even funny. Superman once moved the Earth in issue 2 of "Forgotten Tales of Hyberpole" He'd just like, ya know use his Super breath to knock Thor into orbit. Then what's he gonna do? Thor controls wind nd stuff to fly. No air in space, Hammer Boy! Then Superman, who never kills nobody would decide to finish him and just knock Thor into the sun.

:D

But Thor's a best pal of Captain America, so he'd like, totally win. :-)

[Champsguy]

But Thor's a best pal of Captain America, so he'd like, totally win. :-)

Nuh-uh. 'Cause Batman would show up, and he'd be like, 'hey, represent.'

[ChaosDrgn]

JLA/Avengers #2 I belive

[Supreme]

JLA/Avengers #2 I belive
The conclusion of which was Superman barely defeating Thor and saying, "He may just be the toughest person I've ever fought..." before passing out. Great fight, but I suspect Superman's victory was as much a nod to Supes being the First. I'd have had Superman win too, but after being forced to resort to some trickery (i.e., getting Mjolnir away from him for a minute).

[nexus]

Nuh-uh. 'Cause Batman would show up, and he'd be like, 'hey, represent.'

Damn, you beat me to it. :)

[keithcurtis]

Nuh-uh. 'Cause Batman would show up, and he'd be like, 'hey, represent.'
Yo, man, M'mon Bats don't shiv. He a balls nasty slicer-dicer.

Keith "now let's throw in some l33t" Curtis

[Blue]

I just assumed that "Magic" was simply a force that didn't exist on Krypton. That is, it might have been there as some form of resonant energy (mana) but it was an energy that Kryptonians never discovered or tapped, so they have built up no resistance to it.

Earth has had magic in some form for eons. Earthlings have, to some degree, built a minor tolerance for it. At least more than a Kryptonian.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Well, they DID show this fight in the JLA/Avengers crossover. I'd say that Mjolnir just hits someone with the impact of an indestructible weapon hitting with the force of someone able to punch through a battleship behind it. In other words, it's going to hurt....no matter WHO you are or how invulnerable you think you are. But I'd say it otherwise isn't any more damaging then a tech weapon of similiar stats. Now, Thor can channel mystic/cosmic power through the hammer by channeling energy through interdimensional gates. That WILL hurt Supes more than normal I'd say. My only problem with the fight in the crossover is that they made it WAY too easy for Supes to win. I just don't think it would be that easy. Then they try to cop it out by having Supes say it was the toughest fight he ever had. I doubt that. The writers had Supes basically beat him pretty easily.....

Rob

[assault]

Superman's ... Power Defense ...

I'm not sure Superman actually has Power Defence. He seems to suck against all drainers, not just magical ones. The Parasite is the classic example.

He might have some Power Defence if it's required to defend against environmental hazards, but he doesn't seem to have a form of it usable in combat.

Edit: Most of the "normal" weapons built using Drain or Transform seem to involve limitations like "must hit non-armoured hit location" and so on, which would stop them from working against Superman, as long as "non-armoured" is actually read as "has no resistant defences". Presumably most gas effects would be stopped by appropriate Life Support.

OK, so he might have a _little_ bit of Power Defence. Just not lots.

[ChaosDrgn]

From what one writer of the Superman book has said, Superman has the same resitanence to magic as the normal person. IE little to none. Notice the normal person part though. IF your going to include that part into it all then just use the limitation on it all.

[Superskrull]

Wow! I really like that permeable. I'll have to steal that. Thanks. :)

In the interests of attributing credit where it is due, Agent X was the one who first came up with that particular limitation in our gaming group. Amusingly enough, I think it was done in an attempt to properly model Superman's powers. As Champsguy would agree, it seems to work quite well in pactice as we've used it for several years.

[casualplayer]

Most "magic" is actually Visible (or visible to readers at least) Mental Powers, and Supes doesn't have much if any Mental Defense. Monstrous EGO, but no MD.

He holds up just fine to kinetic energy from magic sources, or the numerous demons he has fought would have popped him like a grape. The end-around powers get him everytime, like Drains and Ego Attacks that he thinks are Energy Blasts.

That said, Thor's full-bore hammer attack gets Galactus' attention.

[st barbara]

I leave for a little while and THIS type of thread is back ? Nothing changes, does it ?

[Log-Man]

I leave for a little while and THIS type of thread is back ? Nothing changes, does it ?

Not much, no. Superman still kicks Thor's ass, Batman still kicks Captain America's butt, Takofanes still owns Dr. Destroyer, etc...




;)

[megaplayboy]

Well, I'm pretty sure Odinpowered-Thor beats post-Crisis, pre-death Supes into red and blue mulch, and pre-Crisis supes beats Hela-cursed Thor into Asgardian protoplasm.

[Southern Cross]

Actually,I think that even the Golden Age Superman could beat Hela-cursed Thor,if he attacked before Thor forged that magical armor.

[Jeff T.]

I've commented on this topic numerous times in the past so I'll go in slightly different direction....

Extremely underused but devastating weapons:

Superman
-Flash-level superspeed

Thor
-Mjolnir's 'magical' life drain ability
-Extradimensional transport usable on others

At least Thor has explanations for his handicapping. The life drain ability is so powerful and deadly he will only use it as a last resort. The XD transport ability is also last resort, but mainly explained because Thor wants to physically defeat his opponents.

Anyone wanna speculate on a semi-logical answer why Supes doesn't use his superspeed?

[Champsguy]

I've commented on this topic numerous times in the past so I'll go in slightly different direction....

Extremely underused but devastating weapons:

Superman
-Flash-level superspeed

Thor
-Mjolnir's 'magical' life drain ability
-Extradimensional transport usable on others

At least Thor has explanations for his handicapping. The life drain ability is so powerful and deadly he will only use it as a last resort. The XD transport ability is also last resort, but mainly explained because Thor wants to physically defeat his opponents.

Anyone wanna speculate on a semi-logical answer why Supes doesn't use his superspeed?

Doesn't need to, for the most part.

Supes' standard tactic when encountering a foe is to brace with his flight and allow the attack to bounce harmlessly off his chest. This serves two purposes:
1) It prevents the attack from hitting something that's much less durable that Supes, like a bystander or a skyscraper.
2) When it (95% of the time) bounces off his chest to no effect, it's really impressive, so Supes gets a big bonus to his Presence Attack when he tells them to throw down their weapons and give up.

It's also smart to keep a power or two in reserve. As it is, he can always fall back on his superspeed if he needs to, and the villain is like "Oh yeah, I forgot he could do that..."

[proditor]

Well, remember that idea I was going for here was more of "How do you write this up and run it in your games", not "Did Marvel get nerfed in the crossover?" ;)

I always took the weakness to mean that Supes had no special defences against a specific enchantment. Now part of this requires some speculation, but that's in part because getting some consistency on this issue is nigh impossible. So if Wonder Woman has a sword that "Shave the atoms off of an electron", that says to me it is enchanted to cut through darn near anything. One of the spells on it is "Cut through stuff well". So, supes gets no special defenses against it and is in trouble. Conversely, Mjolnir has no "Smash stuff to rubble" enchantment, because based on the hammer being unbreakable and Thor being strong enough to lift the Brooklyn Bridge, well, it just wasn't needed. So if you gave Thor a Promethium or Adamantium hammer, he'd do about as much bashing damage as he would with Mjolnir.

As to the magic creatures bit...eh...I'd really like to see some internal consistency in that, but I'm wishing for the moon. Supes vs. Vampires seems to depend completely on the writer, though since Dracula was able to bite into Colossus, I guess everyone is guilty of Anne Rice imitation. ;)

I'll just curse John Byrne for muddying the waters yet again in JLA and then ask ya'll to go look at my how to write up the Silver samurai's energy field in the Hero Discussion forum. :)

[CBikle]

Anyone wanna speculate on a semi-logical answer why Supes doesn't use his superspeed?

Yes. Here's some theories:

1 Like the Flash and other speedsters, Superman's super-speed isn't "always on" (waiting 10 seconds in super-speed perception would seem like 10,000,000 years to them; it would make them incapable of interacting with the real world in any kind of normal manner if they were always moving at this speed).

2 Superman's connection to the Speed Force (the physical reason of how speedsters operate in the DCU) isn't as strong or comfortable for him to use due to his alien heritage or maybe because his attunement to it isn't as natural as, say, the Flash.

3 Maybe operating at Super-Speed requires a greater degree of concentration or maybe Supes has to be "fully charged" with yellow-sun radiation.

[Catacomb]

GAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!


I thought this topic was no longer up for discussion.

Nooooo though every couple of months someone's got to bring up the Thor/Supes fight.

Starlord don't forget that Thor has a massive area power where he can unleash Mjolnir's might on multiple enemies at once through a lighting storm type magical attack effect which has taken care of several 'speedsters' in the past and Supes would be no different.

On a side note ALL of Thor's attacks involving Mjolnir are considered mystical IMO and as far as the comics are concerned. Mjolnir's attacks have always effected mystical types who cannot be hurt by normal attacks. Juggernaught, Mephisto, Giants, Kurse, Other 'gods' etc. So depending on your build for Superman he would be in for 1 and one half tons of arse whoopin' via Thor if he's got magical vulnerabilities.

[Iuz the Evil]

I'm thinking it would go something like...

[Catacomb]

Funny image but remember one more thing about Thor. In the DC world WW is not as strong as Supes but she always gives him a run when they've fought for whatever convoluted reason. Why? Training. She is just a better fighter on down the line. Now give that training to someone who IS as strong but with more mystical abilities.

Thor wins.

[Iuz the Evil]

Hmmm.... nope, I'm gonna go with the photographic evidence.

"SMACK... OWNED". "Nice hammer, think I'll keep it".

Plus I saw how Thor fared in the Marvel-DC crossover, in the JLA-Avengers crossover, and am thinking that I can't recall a case where he actually beat the Man of Steel. Anyone?

[Catacomb]

Hmmm.... nope, I'm gonna go with the photographic evidence.

"SMACK... OWNED". "Nice hammer, think I'll keep it".

Plus I saw how Thor fared in the Marvel-DC crossover, in the JLA-Avengers crossover, and am thinking that I can't recall a case where he actually beat the Man of Steel. Anyone?

Give and take, and the original crossover was a vote(I'm a Wolverine fan but let's be real Lobo would kick Wolvie around like a toy.), and I guarantee that DC writers and Marvel writers got together and said. "Alright you can't make Spidey, Wolverine, or Cap look bad and We can't Make Batman, Superman or WonderWoman get egg on their face. Agreed? Agreed. hrumph, hrumph, hrumph, hrumph..."


Simply put you will make your Golden Goose look good in that situation. Thor's not a bankable 'frontline' Marvel property but Superman is the definition of that for DC. Just the way the industry is.

Also, the person in the pic has a sword right? Okay...just checking.

[Iuz the Evil]

Give and take, and the original crossover was a vote(I'm a Wolverine fan but let's be real Lobo would kick Wolvie around like a toy.), and I guarantee that DC writers and Marvel writers got together and said. "Alright you can't make Spidey, Wolverine, or Cap look bad and We can't Make Batman, Superman or WonderWoman get egg on their face. Agreed? Agreed. hrumph, hrumph, hrumph, hrumph..."


Simply put you will make your Golden Goose look good in that situation. Thor's not a bankable 'frontline' Marvel property but Superman is the definition of that for DC. Just the way the industry is.

Also, the person in the pic has a sword right? Okay...just checking.

Fair enough... so who won when Superman and Thor threw down in the comics? Hmmm?

I'm sure there are plenty of Yankees fans out there who feel their team "should have" won last year. Heck I was sorely disappointed by the performance of "my team" this year (to continue my sports analogy). As I'm fond of saying however, "wish in one hand & crap in the other... see which fills up first".

[proditor]

Funny image but remember one more thing about Thor. In the DC world WW is not as strong as Supes but she always gives him a run when they've fought for whatever convoluted reason. Why? Training. She is just a better fighter on down the line. Now give that training to someone who IS as strong but with more mystical abilities.

Thor wins.
Hrm...I swore I wasn't going to go into the Superman/Thor thing since that wasn't my intent, but WW gives him a hard time in part because Supes never cuts loose on her.

Oh, here's a question...Diana is made from clay that had life breathed into it from the gods right? So following the idea of mystical being=dead Superman...well, ya'll should see the continuity breakdown without any more help from me.

[Catacomb]

Fair enough... so who won when Superman and Thor threw down in the comics? Hmmm?

I'm sure there are plenty of Yankees fans out there who feel their team "should have" won last year. Heck I was sorely disappointed by the performance of "my team" this year (to continue my sports analogy). As I'm fond of saying however, "wish in one hand & crap in the other... see which fills up first".

You are aware of the fact that the analogy you just made would work better with pro wrestling right? Scripted and all...Supes and Thor aren't ever really going to get out and fight for real. Its fake, a comic you see. Written by someone and cross company pandering is the reality not the "Look at the scoreboard" analogy you tried to make.

Again to Proditor and yourself. Nice pic...too bad its not Thor in it.

[OddHat]

You are aware of the fact that the analogy you just made would work better with pro wrestling right? Scripted and all...Supes and Thor aren't ever really going to get out and fight for real. Its fake, a comic you see. Written by someone and cross company pandering is the reality not the "Look at the scoreboard" analogy you tried to make.

Again to Proditor and yourself. Nice pic...too bad its not Thor in it.

So, it's your belief that if only the writers would get out of the way Thor and Supes could really throw down?

:nonp:

[proditor]

You are aware of the fact that the analogy you just made would work better with pro wrestling right? Scripted and all...Supes and Thor aren't ever really going to get out and fight for real. Its fake, a comic you see. Written by someone and cross company pandering is the reality not the "Look at the scoreboard" analogy you tried to make.

Again to Proditor and yourself. Nice pic...too bad its not Thor in it.
I think you missed my point though...Diana by her origin is pretty much as mystical a being as you can get, and her fists don't do any more damage to Supes than to say, Captain Marvel. Yet, we have this badly applied "Vulnerability to Magic" thing. So I'm supposed to believe that being a vampire is somehow more magical than gaining sentience after the queen of the amazons breathes on a lump of clay?

[OddHat]

I think you missed my point though...Diana by her origin is pretty much as mystical a being as you can get, and her fists don't do any more damage to Supes than to say, Captain Marvel. Yet, we have this badly applied "Vulnerability to Magic" thing. So I'm supposed to believe that being a vampire is somehow more magical than gaining sentience after the queen of the amazons breathes on a lump of clay?

Has the magical girdle that grants WW's some of strength been dropped in the latest versions?

[Catacomb]

So, it's your belief that if only the writers would get out of the way Thor and Supes could really throw down?

:nonp:

Wow where did you come up with that? Kind of a stretch eh? No I was making the point that the companies are going to do what is in their best interest. Thor the property of Marvel will not beat Superman the property of DC because Thor losing is not a black-eye to Marvel while Superman losing would be to DC which is why there will be ground rules set forth before the two companies ever collaborate. That's a major reason why JLA/Avengers was almost 8 years in the making. No one wanted to see their precious characters lose and in turn lose face for their company.

I would like to see a writer who has had experience with both characters(They're out there.) do something involving the two of them. This is easily the 'hottest' and most contested little piece of comic-geekdom that goes way beyond the HERO boards.

Of course that ill never happen so Superman will always beat Thor in any crossover written because of the particular character's status within the company.

[Southern Cross]

True enough,but I remember an old vampire story ("The Mysterious Stranger" I think it was called) where it was stated that anybody who had their arm gripped by a vampire would have a weakened arm that would be rarely (if ever) recovered from.So there IS precedent in the literature for having Superman vulnerable to vampiric strength.

[Catacomb]

I think you missed my point though...Diana by her origin is pretty much as mystical a being as you can get, and her fists don't do any more damage to Supes than to say, Captain Marvel. Yet, we have this badly applied "Vulnerability to Magic" thing. So I'm supposed to believe that being a vampire is somehow more magical than gaining sentience after the queen of the amazons breathes on a lump of clay?

Thor's own attacks via fist would not count as magical damage to Superman either even though he is a god. Mjolnir, Dr Fate's blade, The Black Knight's sword all would IMO because the weapons themselves are mystical weapons meant to do mystical damage.

Superman DOES have a vulnerability to magic. Some writers have made this an actual detriment, some have made it a quirk. Unfortunately Superman is the single most inconsistantly written hero in all of comics so its hard to find any kind of solid ground to stand on when talking about this, but my view has always been that Supes originally had the magical weakness way back when he was juggling planets and it WAS a weakness back then so just leave it that way. The guy is ridiculously overpowered as it is so at least some writers try and make him beatable without having to break out some new planet-buster each issue.

[proditor]

Thor's own attacks via fist would not count as magical damage to Superman either even though he is a god. Mjolnir, Dr Fate's blade, The Black Knight's sword all would IMO because the weapons themselves are mystical weapons meant to do mystical damage.

Superman DOES have a vulnerability to magic. Some writers have made this an actual detriment, some have made it a quirk. Unfortunately Superman is the single most inconsistantly written hero in all of comics so its hard to find any kind of solid ground to stand on when talking about this, but my view has always been that Supes originally had the magical weakness way back when he was juggling planets and it WAS a weakness back then so just leave it that way. The guy is ridiculously overpowered as it is so at least some writers try and make him beatable without having to break out some new planet-buster each issue.
You do realize that he has also been MASSIVELY depowered since Crisis and that the "new power a week" Superman and juggling planets is a thing of the past right? Otherwise, wouldn't Thor be just as "ridiculously overpowered" by your definition?

EDIT: The most recent "Supes vulnerable to a vampire" arc was the -at best- execrable Byrne arc. And while I still like his art, he wouldn't know continuity if it smacked his butt and called him Sally. After all, they spent 5 years fixing Supes after his initial run post crisis.

[keithcurtis]

Catacomb has nailed the essence of why Superman would win. It has nothing to do with stats or powers, and everything to do with their position in their companies.

I'd like to add IMHO, it also has much to do with their place in the comic book mythology. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Superman would win because that's what he does. He wins. He's the defintion of winner. It's his biggest power.

Keith "Sitting in the Kryptonian seats" Curtis

[TheImperialKhan]

That tends to be true of any Superhero. Particularly in their own comic.

[Catacomb]

You do realize that he has also been MASSIVELY depowered since Crisis and that the "new power a week" Superman and juggling planets is a thing of the past right? Otherwise, wouldn't Thor be just as "ridiculously overpowered" by you definition?

Believe it or not Thor has been consistantly the same level of power from the get go. He's rarely used anything 'new' and he can actually be hurt by many things that Superman can't(High velocity armor piercing slugs are an example...Thor's been shot), he needs to breathe, has never juggled a planet to my knowledge, and has been beaten down without the help of a convoluted storyline.

Yes I am also aware that Superman has been powered down but since day one he has had at the very least an aversion to magic and that, along with kryptonite are two of the things that have stayed consistant.


Now Thor also has 'levels' of power but again these never change regardless of the writer. He has "Thor knows he can take you so he's playing with kid gloves." which Superman also has. Then he has the "I say thee nay" level of power which you see quite often where he rathcets up the fight which Superman also has to a degree(But its wildly inconsistant.), and finally Thor has a level of power that he does have that is rarely tapped but it has been used on about five occasions.

The "I'm passed I say thee nay and have reached the, Ultron we would have words with thee its time to open a can of grade-a Asgardian whoopass." which is again consistant in its use. Its where Thor uses all of his power and has no fear for his opponents safety whatsoever, in fact, I would say he's trying to corpsify said opponent. On top of that you have two items which again have been through the years part of the storyline but Thor only uses them when he's hit that last stage. The gauntlets and the belt. Thanos got to see them, so did the Destroyer, and Surtur as well as the Celestials, and Mephisto got a taste as well. Again though the power levels are very consistant, almost gears in a Thor storyline and the writers seem to stick to the formula as far as his powers go, but Superman...mother of all I hold holy. He can go from being on an even footing with Lobo to utterly wiping him out in three panels in a span of less than ten ISSUES and there are no gears there, no explaination, no reasoning behind the souped up powers...maybe the yellow sun was just closer that day :nonp: . Superman's powers just seem to fit the situation while Thor's powers have been pretty much the same since we first saw him.

If I'm wrong point that out but I totally disagree with the Thor is way overpowered comment just because of who's beat him(Hawkeye and gas arrows...'nuff said.) while Superman's powers just seem to fit whatever issue he's in.

[proditor]

If I'm wrong point that out but I totally disagree with the Thor is way overpowered comment just because of who's beat him(Hawkeye and gas arrows...'nuff said.) while Superman's powers just seem to fit whatever issue he's in.Oh, I'm actually a huge Thor fan, I have the run from Beta Ray Bill through the birth of a celestial.

His powers in general stay about the same, though now he tends to bounce bullets off his chest now (And you are 100% right, he used to make a shield by spinning his hammer when there was gunfire before). His strength fluctuates greatly though, and I don't just mean "Cursed by Hela Thor" vs. "Turned into a Frog by Loki" Thor, I mean every day Thor. I've seen him work to lift 100 tons, (Battling Mongoose) I've seen him strain to hold up a planetoid with a mass equivalent to Earth's (The birth of a celestial arc).

I like both of the characters, and I think they both have stabilized in terms of what powers they have, at least in the last 20 years, but it's the details of how powerful those powers ARE that is a PITA.

In the end though, ya root for who you like/think will pull it out. And as much as I like Thor, I think Big Blue is too much for him.

Back to the original discussion though....

Is it possible to give someone a "Does not work vs. Magic" and then break down the definition? Like magic meaning spells but necessarily a spork enchanted to make potato salad 3/day?

[David Blue]

Having just read (the brilliant) A League of One, starring Wonder Woman ...

Superman is still an unusually powerful character, only mildly less powerful than a god, and beyond Wonder Woman's power to do more than slow him down.

It would not even be possible for her to do that in a Champions game, as far as I can see. Starting with a sucker punch, or rather kick, she would accomplish exactly nothing in a Champions game.

I think you can be a perfectly good high powered magical character, as Wonder Woman is, as Thor is, and not be able to beat even the Superman of A League of One.

Sure, Thor should be tougher than Wonder Woman, but basically ... (bounce)

[Hermit]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58&page=1&pp=15

But... but Thor did so well in the polls.... *sniffle*

:)

[OddHat]

Is it possible to give someone a "Does not work vs. Magic" and then break down the definition? Like magic meaning spells but necessarily a spork enchanted to make potato salad 3/day?

Sure it's possible, if not looking at the Superman question (or even if, depending on write-up).

Myself, I'd build a Superman clone with campaign max rPD and rED, hardened, 3/4 DR versus PD and ED, full Life Support, moderate Power Defense, no Mental Defense, Regeneration at 1 Body per Turn, and a very high CON, BOD, and EGO. He might also get innate Regeneration with Resurection, 1 Body per day, or that could just be written off as his genre package.

The Damage Reduction would not work on Magic SFX. Neither would the hardened advantage on his PD and ED, or his Power Defense. -1/2 limit for that in the DC verse.

AP or Penetrating magical attacks are a real threat, as are any sort of Magic NND, Magic based Drain, or high power raw magic attacks that can pass his PD and ED. Punches and Kicks from a magic based Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman might be a threat, but he still has that high PD and ED to protect him, and the CON and BOD to soak a lot of damage.

Just imo, natch.

[Champsguy]

Ah, I knew this would happen. :)

Both characters have wildly varied in power levels. Sometimes, bullets hurt Thor. Sometimes he survives hydrogen bombs without a scratch. Sometimes Supes can lift planets, sometimes he struggles with 70 ton weights (a few years ago--the WWIII story arc, a 70 ton satellite falls to Earth, and Supes has trouble keeping it from burning up in orbit). Both seem to have an "average" level of power, and I'd say they're pretty close to each other at that level. Each can ramp up to extreme levels of power, but they go in different directions at that point.

Superman gets faster and stronger. He stops holding back, and he doesn't really seem to have a ceiling on how fast or how strong he can get. I think Supes probably could pull off a lot of that Pre-Crisis stuff now. I don't really think he's any less powerful than he was. He just has to get mad now to do it.
Thor gets stronger to a point, and then he starts pulling out the nasty powers. He starts using that retributive strike, and the life-drains, and the god-juice. In effect, he starts using Omega Beams and other nasty crap.

All in all, it depends on the writer. Superman is probably built a bit better as far as straight-up "hit-you-fall-down" powers. Thor's better at pulling off jaw-dropping "WTF?" powers at his highest levels.

[Catacomb]

Ah, I knew this would happen. :)

Both characters have wildly varied in power levels. Sometimes, bullets hurt Thor. Sometimes he survives hydrogen bombs without a scratch.

I would like to point something out about this. Regular bullets have never 'hurt' him as I stated earlier. It has to be ramped up, some sort of armor piercing job to do the trick and most of the time he uses Mjolnir to block bullets as a reflection power to keep them from harming anyone else. I don't know exactly how the bomb thing would work either but again to split hairs its usually the shrapnel that gets Thor, not the concussive force or explosion. He can survive immense heat and cold (Not the sun like Superman) and has walked away from bombs in the past yes. That having been said though he seems to have a weakness to the AP type attacks, something that penetrates and makes him bleed so again its pretty consistant on that level.

[Southern Cross]

So obviously Thor doesn't have hardened defenses.

[Jeff T.]

Photographic evidence? :D

[Catacomb]

So obviously Thor doesn't have hardened defenses.

I'm actually breaking out the comics today to see if his lack of hardened defenses is only against objects like bullets and swords or if it extends to energy as well.

[Catacomb]

Photographic evidence? :D

Never liked that pic because in all fairness Superman should be able to lift Mjolnir...that's another thread though, and we've discussed it(About a year ago, can't find it though.).

[Woodside Kid]

The problem is, there really isn't a way to stage this fight without seriously gutting Superman's powers (or, indeed, those of most of the DC A-list heroes). The difference between them is so great that every crossover in recent years has had to scale down the DC heroes' abilities in order to keep the conflicts from ending up in the "blink and you'll miss it" category.

Assuming you ignore the occasional hiccups both Thor and Superman have shown over the years, stick to the average power level they display (and if you go by the companies' own character guides published back in the 80s), the fight is a no-brainer. Marvel's guide gives Thor Class 100 strength; he can lift (press) in excess of 100 tons. How much over 100 tons is never stated, but, seeing as he's never been able to run rampant over the whole Marvel Universe, it's probably not all that much over. As for the Man of Steel, DC's guide (which, before you ask, had the John Byrne reboot taken into account) stated that "he could easily lift the weight of the Great Pyramid of Egypt, were it possible to do so without destroying the structure." (Yes, that's a direct quote.) The key word in that sentence is easily; it implies that such a weight (on the order of 6 million tons) is nowhere near Superman's limit. A few years ago I made a conservative guess that that weight was 10% of his limit; that would make Superman something on the order of half a million times as strong as Thor.

To me, that seemed to nail the lid shut on Thor's "superior battle skills." At that level, it's like asking the greatest martial artist in the world to stop a 5,000 ton freight train going 60mph; your skills ain't gonna matter one bit.

As for whether or not Mjolnir or Thor's innate magic would affect Superman more than a normal person, in all the years I've read Marvel I've never seen anything that would lead me to assume that was the case. The damage that Thor and/or his hammer does only seems to be related to how tough the object is; I don't recall seeing anything where a character took more damage due to a vulnerability to magic. (Then again, if the Earth X miniseries is valid, the Asgardians aren't magical at all. :rolleyes: ) If I were running a DC vs. Marvel campaign, I woudn't give Superman any extra damage from a magic attack. Of course, given his power levels, it would have to be one hell of an attack to hurt him. To be perfectly honest, I would avoid the issue completely and not do a DC/Marvel campaign at all.

[Bazza]

Photographic evidence? :DThat picture still cracks me up. :thumbup:

[Jeff T.]

Never liked that pic because in all fairness Superman should be able to lift Mjolnir...that's another thread though, and we've discussed it(About a year ago, can't find it though.).

Awww, let's do it. I think you have to have a 'warrior-type' quality to lift it, which Supes doesn't have. Wonder Woman, maybe. :)

Still, it's just a joke pic. ;)

[Champsguy]

The problem is, there really isn't a way to stage this fight without seriously gutting Superman's powers (or, indeed, those of most of the DC A-list heroes). The difference between them is so great that every crossover in recent years has had to scale down the DC heroes' abilities in order to keep the conflicts from ending up in the "blink and you'll miss it" category.

Assuming you ignore the occasional hiccups both Thor and Superman have shown over the years, stick to the average power level they display (and if you go by the companies' own character guides published back in the 80s), the fight is a no-brainer. Marvel's guide gives Thor Class 100 strength; he can lift (press) in excess of 100 tons.

(snipped rest)


Ah. You're an OHOTMU disciple. See, the problem with that guide is, well, it's friggen wrong. Completely. It's not even close to being correct. Marvel's people have as much as admitted it. Back on the old boads, several years ago, we had a quote from the guy who wrote the thing, that basically said that Marvel had given him an editorial decree to limit everybody to 100 tons, no matter what. Thor's lifted the St Louis Arch (and carried it behind him in flight), which is on the order of a million tons.

So basically, you have to decide if you want to use Marvel's "official" ruling on the subject, or if you want to look at what actually happens in the comics. You know, just like how the Democratic Republic of Korea is neither democratic, nor a republic.

[CBikle]

Ah. You're an OHOTMU disciple. See, the problem with that guide is, well, it's friggen wrong. Completely. It's not even close to being correct. Marvel's people have as much as admitted it. Back on the old boads, several years ago, we had a quote from the guy who wrote the thing, that basically said that Marvel had given him an editorial decree to limit everybody to 100 tons, no matter what. Thor's lifted the St Louis Arch (and carried it behind him in flight), which is on the order of a million tons.

So basically, you have to decide if you want to use Marvel's "official" ruling on the subject, or if you want to look at what actually happens in the comics. You know, just like how the Democratic Republic of Korea is neither democratic, nor a republic.

Gruenwald later said that, in hindsight, they should have classified it as an ESTIMATED strength level instead of making it absolute.

[Hawksmoor]

OTOH, in the DC Heroes Role Playing game entitled Superman the Man of Steel, which is an extensive treatise on Superman (post crisis) his origins, powers, weaknesses, and villians, Superman is estimated to be able to lift 500,000 tons with out pushing himself.

In Champions terms that is a heck of a lot, 500ktons or about 120-125. I prefer the 1DC=1AP conversion for damage and effect related conversions (Energy Blast STR Darkness etc) which places Superman at about 125.

Thor would have 90-100 STR if I stated out his PC from the Marvel Superheroes game. Not bad and places him at the Grond, Durak and Ripper level. And if I converted him once again into DC Heroes he would have a STR of 18-20 or about as strong as Captain Marvel and stronger than Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman.

Sorry to derail....

[keithcurtis]

All "offiicial" lift amounts for comic characters are bogus. There are any number of examples where they conflict with the observed material. Comics are not an rpg. The needs of a story are far different from the needs of a game. I posit that you can only classify characters by relative strength.
Thor is stronger than Spider-Man
Hercules is stronger than Thor
An enraged Hulk is stronger than Hercules.
Nobody is stronger than Superman.

Keith "Stronger than Aunt May" Curtis

[GTAgamemaster]

Hey folks,

This is another side note but it goes back to people's reference to Kingdom Come. (If this has already been stated I apologize for adding to the clutter!)

I have seen where numerous folks talk about Superman's confrontation with Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come but what I want to talk about is where Superman and Wonder Woman are speaking aboard the space station and Supes is fiddling with Wonder Woman's sword and it cuts him. It is just a nick and thats all but he is cut and I presume it is a magic blade. It is not Excalibur or the Sword of Roland, Its not the Power Sword or the Star Sword but it is a magical sword and it can slice right through and make Supes bleed.

Now Mjolnir is an epic weapon!! It is defining weapon in the Marvel Universe. It is an artifact!! It is unique and awsomely powerful especially in the hands of Thor.

If the nick on his finger from a magical blade sometimes wielded by Wonder Woman can make him bleed then what does happen when he is hit by the full force of a hammer Strike deliverd by The Thunder God.

"So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..." I assume it hurts like hell and probably injures him....lets hope he took it on the arm or shoulder cause he was moving or blocking. If that be the case, then I think Superman has a fracture and he works harder to avoid contact and uses his many other gifts to best Thor.... the fight last several months and we the fans are incredibly entertained. (happy ending for us??)

[Log-Man]

Ok, this whole "vulnerability to magic" thing has gotten completely out of hand. Look, there's one reason and one reason only that he has this so-called vulnerability: Mr. Mxyzptlk

Superman once was bulletproof. Then he was The Man of Steel. Then he was invulnerable. Problem with invulnerability-it's boring. He can't be hurt...so what if we can screw with him a little? Mxyptlk was the villain intended to offer weird challenges without having to throw a punch. If he wants to make Supes into a hedgehog, he can. "But he's invulnerable! He can't be harmed. and changing him into a hedgehog qualifies as harm," the fans point out. "Ah," say the writers, doffing their tap-dancing shoes, "but that invulnerability doesn't work against magic. He's vulnerable to magic." "Oh," note the mollified masses. "Ok, we get it." The writers exhale a sigh of relief, not realizing the monster they've unleashed, and go about exploring new colors for kryptonite.

That's it. End of story. In the old days (you know, before 1996) even mystical foes needed red sun radiation or kryptonite to cause actual harm. ("That viking warrior doesn't know it, but his magic sword has *gasp* red sun radiation!")



There. Now you may continue ranting.

[Worldmaker]

Awww, let's do it. I think you have to have a 'warrior-type' quality to lift it, which Supes doesn't have. Wonder Woman, maybe. :)

Still, it's just a joke pic. ;)


Yeah, a stupid, sad joke created by someone who fixed the deck so his own favorite character won. The qualification was never "warrior". Ever. In any published source. Its always been "nobility". And nobility is something Superman has in spades, even more so than Thor.

[Stray Cat]

That's it. End of story. In the old days (you know, before 1996) even mystical foes needed red sun radiation or kryptonite to cause actual harm. ("That viking warrior doesn't know it, but his magic sword has *gasp* red sun radiation!")

"I say thee nay!" Where do you get that? I thought that went way back. I'm going back through some stuff now for examples, 'less someone else beats me to it...

Cat

[lemming]

"I say thee nay!" Where do you get that? I thought that went way back. I'm going back through some stuff now for examples, 'less someone else beats me to it...

Cat
Definitly before 1996 since I knew of the magic problem and I stopped collecting in 1993. I'm thinking 60s or 70s. Of course, Log may of meant to type a different number than '96.

[lemming]

Yeah, a stupid, sad joke created by someone who fixed the deck so his own favorite character won. The qualification was never "warrior". Ever. In any published source. Its always been "nobility". And nobility is something Superman has in spades, even more so than Thor.
Me thinks someone favors Superman over Thor. ;)

[Worldmaker]

Me thinks someone favors Superman over Thor. ;)


Not necessarily. I made no comment on who I thought would win in a fight between the two. I made a comment on whether Superman is capable of lifting the hammer.

Which he is, according to Marvel's own history.

[nexus]

Wanderer's going to pop into this thread any moment now with an anti Supes rant any minute now. :)

[Champsguy]

Not necessarily. I made no comment on who I thought would win in a fight between the two. I made a comment on whether Superman is capable of lifting the hammer.

Which he is, according to Marvel's own history.

Worthiness is a hard to define concept. But according to the JLA/Avengers crossover, which apparently is in DC continuity (thank you Kurt Busiek), Supes could lift it when there was a need, but he couldn't just carry it around whenever he felt like it.

[David Blue]

And the other gentlemen in that queue?

[lemming]

And the other gentlemen in that queue?
Of that list, I'd let Superman, Captain Marvel, & Martian Manhunter to lift it. Wonderman, though I liked the character has either been too unsure of self or arrogant prick. Hulk doesn't fit the worthy parameter either since he's more built on rage. I'm not sure who the guy on the end was. (Though I'll be sure to go "Doh!" when someone names him)

[megaplayboy]

Of that list, I'd let Superman, Captain Marvel, & Martian Manhunter to lift it. Wonderman, though I liked the character has either been too unsure of self or arrogant prick. Hulk doesn't fit the worthy parameter either since he's more built on rage. I'm not sure who the guy on the end was. (Though I'll be sure to go "Doh!" when someone names him)
Tom Strong.

[lemming]

Tom Strong.
Doh!

[Log-Man]

"I say thee nay!" Where do you get that? I thought that went way back. I'm going back through some stuff now for examples, 'less someone else beats me to it...

Ok, the 1996 thing was an attempt at a joke...nevermind. But here is the viking i referenced (I used to have several issues from this era).
Larger image here (http://www.superdickery.com/images/dick/116_4_270.jpg)

[keithcurtis]

1986 would be a better date. That coincides with the post-crisis reboot.
For the record, Red sun radiation (blech) has been creeping back into stories when writers or editors forget. It's the same crowd that forgets that only J'onn should have an aversion to fire. Despite it having been retconned to a psychological block, all Martians can apparently be taken out by Batman with a kitchen match.
Also, Log, you sound pretty authoritative that the vulnerability to magic stems directly from Myxyptlk (or more correctly, Myxyztplk, the "Earth-2" imp.) Is this opinion, or do you have a reference?

Also, not everyone realizes, but Krytponite, Jimmy Olsen and many elements of Krypton stem from the original radio play, not the comic. Kind of like Harley Quinn.

Keith "Kltpzyxym---<i>poof</i>

[keithcurtis]

Yeah, a stupid, sad joke created by someone who fixed the deck so his own favorite character won. The qualification was never "warrior". Ever. In any published source. Its always been "nobility". And nobility is something Superman has in spades, even more so than Thor.
Agree with you on the "warrior" bit, but when has nobility ever been a canon criterion? AFAIR, the inscription reads:
<font face="papyrus, comic sans">Whosoever weilds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thorr</font>[sic]

Keith "played with both a towel-cape and a mallet as a kid" Curtis

[Worldmaker]

Worthiness is a hard to define concept. But according to the JLA/Avengers crossover, which apparently is in DC continuity (thank you Kurt Busiek), Supes could lift it when there was a need, but he couldn't just carry it around whenever he felt like it.


:rolleyes:

I invoke the single incident vs. long-term assumption rule.

[Worldmaker]

Agree with you on the "warrior" bit, but when has nobility ever been a canon criterion? AFAIR, the inscription reads:
<font face="papyrus, comic sans">Whosoever weilds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thorr</font>[sic]



This is true, but dialog in the series itself repeatedly indicated that the "worthy" they were talking about was nobility, selflessness, integrity... all those things that, for example, allowed Captain America to quite casually lift the hammer, while the Hulk has never been able to. I even recall Thor explaining to the Peter David hulk that it took a "true and noble spirit" to be able to lift it.

Now... is anyone really going to argue that Superman lacks a "true and noble heart"?

[Wanderer]

Wanderer's going to pop into this thread any moment now with an anti Supes rant any minute now. :)

Bah, I had already spent much of my rage throwing away the JLA/Avengers miniseries in disgust when I saw how shamelessly the pandering DC had forced the stack of the Supes/Thor fight in favour of their $&%£ conservative icon. In a fair universe, the Son of Odin can make pulp of the upstart lummock from Kansas any time (even if he has to shed much toil in the effort, I concede). Boy, how much I long to read a mainstream story where a normal "noble" villain, or an (anti-)hero, Marvel, Wildstorm, or otherwise, with a less extreme devotion to the Man kicks the @$$ of the zealot in blue to the moon, and throws him down a couple notches from its righteous pedestal, and he stays down for the whole count. Sadly, given how much protective DC is of its bloody icon, this will happen about 10 seconds after Hell freezes over :(


However, I find the fact that marvel heroes found DC universe frightening and oppressive in its black-and-white uncompromising nature extremely refreshing.

[Bazza]

Simply put you will make your Golden Goose look good in that situation. Thor's not a bankable 'frontline' Marvel property but Superman is the definition of that for DC. Just the way the industry is.
Wow where did you come up with that? Kind of a stretch eh? No I was making the point that the companies are going to do what is in their best interest. Thor the property of Marvel will not beat Superman the property of DC because Thor losing is not a black-eye to Marvel while Superman losing would be to DC

*snip*

I would like to see a writer who has had experience with both characters(They're out there.) do something involving the two of them. This is easily the 'hottest' and most contested little piece of comic-geekdom that goes way beyond the HERO boards.

Of course that ill never happen so Superman will always beat Thor in any crossover written because of the particular character's status within the company.
Catacomb has nailed the essence of why Superman would win. It has nothing to do with stats or powers, and everything to do with their position in their companies. I totally agree with this, I realised it myself a while ago (around the JLA/Avengers crossover).

Proposal: Marvel and DC put out a miniseries (or one-shot). The two main characters are Thor and Superman, the plot being similar to this (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58). The story is made clear to the fanboys/fangirls that this story is not part of continuity, an elseworld type of thing, but the story is made official a these things go. It is also clear what powers/abilities both characters will possess. As background material the writer/creative team looks at pervious polls that have been conducted by fans to gauge their interest and the abilities powers the fans say they possess. Then the comic gets scripted etc.

Could this scenario happen? I know it would sell.



I'd like to add IMHO, it also has much to do with their place in the comic book mythology. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Superman would win because that's what he does. He wins. He's the defintion of winner. It's his biggest power. Keith, I have never read Supeman but I find that thought interesting.


Keith "Sitting in the Kryptonian seats" CurtisMust be lonely there, eh? :D

[OddHat]

This is true, but dialog in the series itself repeatedly indicated that the "worthy" they were talking about was nobility, selflessness, integrity... all those things that, for example, allowed Captain America to quite casually lift the hammer, while the Hulk has never been able to. I even recall Thor explaining to the Peter David hulk that it took a "true and noble spirit" to be able to lift it.

Now... is anyone really going to argue that Superman lacks a "true and noble heart"?

Exactly, and repped.

[Lupus]

All "offiicial" lift amounts for comic characters are bogus. There are any number of examples where they conflict with the observed material. Comics are not an rpg. The needs of a story are far different from the needs of a game. I posit that you can only classify characters by relative strength.
Thor is stronger than Spider-Man
Hercules is stronger than Thor
An enraged Hulk is stronger than Hercules.
Nobody is stronger than Superman.

Keith "Stronger than Aunt May" Curtis
And even there, you'll get discrepancies. Extremely mad Hulk has fought extremely mad Thor and they've been at a standstill. Thor can enter 'berserker rages' where his already-immense strength just goes up and up and UP.

I'm not even sure about the 'Hercules is stronger' bit even normally, but I've never read much Hercules.

So even relative strength is difficult. Me, I just give up and say: at the top end, there's a big mess - Hulk, Thor, Juggernaut, Hercules... it's a wash, really. Marvel's never going to say who's stronger. Chances are, Hulk's the strongest when he gets REALLY going, depending on his incarnation. Green Hulk quite possibly has NO upper limit of strength. So he could potentially get stronger than Galactus - just gotta get him mad enough and hope he doesn't blow the planet up in the process (cf Champion, when empowered by Infinity Gem).

In doing any kind of inter-universe comparison, I'd generally try to achieve some parity of power levels, such as by assuming that Superman (being in the top mess of DC) is about equal to Thor (being in the top mess of Marvel). But that's not the only way to go about it. :)

[Lupus]

I have seen where numerous folks talk about Superman's confrontation with Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come but what I want to talk about is where Superman and Wonder Woman are speaking aboard the space station and Supes is fiddling with Wonder Woman's sword and it cuts him. It is just a nick and thats all but he is cut and I presume it is a magic blade.
Diana even makes a comment that Superman always was vulnerable to magic, in relation to him being cut by the sword.

The sword's also super-tough and super-sharp (she cuts right through bulletproof metal with it, in the Big Fight), but I think the implication is clear that it cuts him because it's magic.

Then again, Kingdom Come is Elseworlds, and thus of limited value in main-universe discussions. :)

[Log-Man]

1986 would be a better date. That coincides with the post-crisis reboot.
For the record, Red sun radiation (blech) has been creeping back into stories when writers or editors forget. It's the same crowd that forgets that only J'onn should have an aversion to fire. Despite it having been retconned to a psychological block, all Martians can apparently be taken out by Batman with a kitchen match.
Also, Log, you sound pretty authoritative that the vulnerability to magic stems directly from Myxyptlk (or more correctly, Myxyztplk, the "Earth-2" imp.) Is this opinion, or do you have a reference?

Also, not everyone realizes, but Krytponite, Jimmy Olsen and many elements of Krypton stem from the original radio play, not the comic. Kind of like Harley Quinn.

Keith "Kltpzyxym---<i>poof</i>

The librarian in me was crying out for reference even as I wrote this, but sadly I have none. This is taken mostly from an interview I read a looong time ago, along with a few more recent ones, mixed with personal experience and observation. You read a lot of the old 50s-60s books (especially Jimmy Olsen if you can get your hands on them-hilarious!) and the stories support the proposition I'd heard.

Superman's weaknesses (kryptonite, magic, red sun, etc.) were subject to escalation even as his powers were. We all know that the Superman of 1985 bore little resemblence to his original conception.* Originally kryptonite was a radioactive rock, color unimportant. The more powerful he got, the more elaborate weakness he needed. A dangerous game to play undoubtedly, and ultimately led to the reboot. It's important to remember, though, that continuity had little place in those early books.


*I was sad to see Kent Shakespeare get written out of continuity. As an homage to the original Superman I thought the character was great and very interesting.

[keithcurtis]

This is true, but dialog in the series itself repeatedly indicated that the "worthy" they were talking about was nobility, selflessness, integrity... all those things that, for example, allowed Captain America to quite casually lift the hammer, while the Hulk has never been able to. I even recall Thor explaining to the Peter David hulk that it took a "true and noble spirit" to be able to lift it.

Now... is anyone really going to argue that Superman lacks a "true and noble heart"?
No argument from me.

But the whole Beta Ray Bill saga (which was arguably the biggest in-canon reference to hammer-lifting qualities), BRB wasn't able to claim the hammer until after he had shown warrior prowess by defeating the son of Odin in fair combat. I'd have to dig the issues out to see how it was precisely stated. I think it requires more than pureness and nobility, though. Knowing the background of Marvel's Thor, I would think it would also require a willingness to weild the thing.

But that's my opinion, of course. In any case, I think the two prime contenders to hold the hammer in the DC universe are Superman and WW.

Keith "Apparently it's not that lonely in the Kryptonian seats" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Log,
I had dozens and dozens of Jimmy Olsen's once upon a time. I loved them. Despite their hokiness, they were well-plotted and enjoyable stories. And yes, hilarious. I even liked what Jack Kirby did, turning him into an adventure hero and depply involving him with the Fourth World characters.

Keith "zee-zee-zee..." Cyrtis

[CBikle]

Log,
I had dozens and dozens of Jimmy Olsen's once upon a time. I loved them. Despite their hokiness, they were well-plotted and enjoyable stories. And yes, hilarious. I even liked what Jack Kirby did, turning him into an adventure hero and depply involving him with the Fourth World characters.

Keith "zee-zee-zee..." Cyrtis

The story behind that was Kirby had left Marvel under bad circumstances and
asked DC: "What's your lowest-selling title ?".

At the time, it was "Jimmy Olsen", so that was the book Kirby was given and he used it to launch Darkseid, the New Gods, et al.

It's possible that the 4th World characters might've wound up being introduced in a Batman title or possibly a war-title like Sgt. Rock if the sales on one of those books had been lower.

[OddHat]

No argument from me.

But the whole Beta Ray Bill saga (which was arguably the biggest in-canon reference to hammer-lifting qualities), BRB wasn't able to claim the hammer until after he had shown warrior prowess by defeating the son of Odin in fair combat. I'd have to dig the issues out to see how it was precisely stated. I think it requires more than pureness and nobility, though. Knowing the background of Marvel's Thor, I would think it would also require a willingness to weild the thing.

But that's my opinion, of course. In any case, I think the two prime contenders to hold the hammer in the DC universe are Superman and WW.

Keith "Apparently it's not that lonely in the Kryptonian seats" Curtis

As an addendum in this pointless fan-wanking, Supes has fought the most powerful monsters and madmen the DC-verse has to offer. He is a warrior. ;)

[Log-Man]

I thought making Jimmy Olsen the big Golden Age villain was a stroke of genius. Jimmy has to be an extremely expensive character to make, especially for a newspaper boy! :D So on to the real debate....



Jimmy Olsen vs. Rick Jones
The Sidekick Showdown!

[Log-Man]

As an addendum in this pointless fan-wanking...

Ahem. Wanking is never pointless.

Thank you.

[Phil]

I have to admit, I always find threads like this interesting. The content and the manner of these 'fanboy' discussions cast an interesting light on the make up of discussion boards.

Now my perspective is from a very much DC background. Last marvel I read was when I got Secret Wars issues 1 and 2 back when a nipper. Boy, i bet they'd be worth something now if I'd held onto them! However, it does surprise me the depth of this discussion, and to some extent the conclusion. It had always been my understanding that the marvel generally operates on a lower power level to DC. It was part of the greater 'reality' of the marvel setting, combined with the decision to base much of the action in a parallel New York rather than entirely fictional cities. So, Marvel's speedster could run at a thousand miles an hour, Marvel's super-strong characters could lift a thousand tonnes, Marvel's supertough characters could survive heavy weapons fire. DC, on the other hand, has always operated at a higher power level, including multiple speedsters operating above the limits of relativity, a number of super-strong characters capable of multi-million tonne lifts, and a number of super-tough characters capable of surviving in the middle of nukes (or the sun, or similar).

This is one reason why I often wonder why these discussions even arise, because the scale of the comics is different. However, this thread seems to suggest that in recent years Marvel have tried to up the ante and bring their big guns in line with DC's. I think it's a shame, because by so doing they risk removing the humanity of their characters. One of the trouble with the DC headliners - the likes of Supes, WW, Captain marvel - is that they are essentially unbeatable without introducing uber-powered villains around every corner. This sort of thing tires easily, and it's one reason, for example, why I've stopped reading JLA. Grant Morrison's early run was fabulous (and being a Bats fan helps, as he gets to be the hero of the piece!) but it was always going to run out of steam when the only opponents you could introduce had to be cosmic-level, world threatening.

Now, looking at the Marvel website, they rank all their heroes. isnt that convenient! all ranked out of 7:

Thor:
Intelligence 2
Strength 7 (Hulk 7, Juggernaut 7, Thing 6)
Speed 7 (surprising this one. Spiderman 3, Quicksilver 5, Captain Marvel 7, Iron Man 5)
Durability 6 (Hulk 7, Iron Man 6, Juggernaut 7)
Energy Protection 6 (Hulk 1, Iron Man 6)
Fighting skills 4 (surprisingly low. Wolvie 7, Spiderman 4)

If we were to assume the same scale for DC characters, then Supes would probably scale out as Int 3, Str 7, Spd 7, Dur 7, Energy Prot 6, Fighting ... well, you'd think at least a 4. So, there's a fair degree of parity if we assume the comics now operate on similar scales. And there's the question really. The only real reference I can provide is from the fairly tragic DC / Marvel crossover, where Supes puts the Hulk down fairly quickly and easily (or so it appears). Now even given the iconic status of supes meaning he cant lose, I'm not sure this lead to too many fanboy complaints. But hey, what do I know.

I agree with Hugh's earlier comment. Supes main power is he Wins. And Thor unfortunately has nothing that, over the long-term, can match that!

[Bazza]

I agree with Hugh's earlier comment. Supes main power is he Wins. And Thor unfortunately has nothing that, over the long-term, can match that!It was Keith who said that, not Hugh.

If we agree Superman has a vunerability to magic, Thor does have one itty bitty thing that can match that -- the Destroyer armor.

[OddHat]

It was Keith who said that, not Hugh.

If we agree Superman has a vunerability to magic, Thor does have one itty bitty thing that can match that -- the Destroyer armor.

Well if we're going to throw in the cool toys that each charater has picked up, Silver Age Supes had Superman Robots almost as powerful as he was, Kryptonian Power Armor, the Supercar, other toys...I'm sure the current Supes has gotten similar junk since the re-boot.

This reminds me of my Cool and Funky (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=128087&postcount=25) RPG system. ;)

[Wanderer]

In Thor's case, the classical equivalent of Superman's various vulnerabilities (magic, kryptonite, red sun radiation) have been, besides the hammer-losing accidental change, the bazillion times Odin decided to strip powers from his son on the flimsiest pretext, whim, or tantrum: in the Kirby age, it happened almost every other issue. Having the wrong girlfriend, Odin being duped by Loki, being too friendly to mortals, spending too much time on Midgard, etc.

[Worldmaker]

No argument from me.

But the whole Beta Ray Bill saga (which was arguably the biggest in-canon reference to hammer-lifting qualities), BRB wasn't able to claim the hammer until after he had shown warrior prowess by defeating the son of Odin in fair combat. I'd have to dig the issues out to see how it was precisely stated. I think it requires more than pureness and nobility, though. Knowing the background of Marvel's Thor, I would think it would also require a willingness to weild the thing.


But that was to claim the hammer... specifically, Bill wanted to keep the thing since he could use it as a weapon to defend his people (fleeing from a mega-threat to safety, remember?)

It didn't take him beating Thor to lift and use it. Just to keep it when Thor asked for it back.





But that's my opinion, of course. In any case, I think the two prime contenders to hold the hammer in the DC universe are Superman and WW.

I'd not include Wonder Woman, but would include Captain Marvel.

[Worldmaker]

Just something I was wondering... but what's to stop Supes from catching Mjolnir on the fly in, say, the same manner the Flash used to catch bullets? He's fast enough to do so, he's strong enough to do so, and as pointed out he's noble enough to do so.

[lemming]

Just something I was wondering... but what's to stop Supes from catching Mjolnir on the fly in, say, the same manner the Flash used to catch bullets? He's fast enough to do so, he's strong enough to do so, and as pointed out he's noble enough to do so.
Depends on the GM...

[Superskrull]

I thought making Jimmy Olsen the big Golden Age villain was a stroke of genius. Jimmy has to be an extremely expensive character to make, especially for a newspaper boy!

Ok, I've looked around this thread several times. Just what are you talking about? You completely lost me there.

[Log-Man]

Ok, I've looked around this thread several times. Just what are you talking about? You completely lost me there.

Heh, sorry about that :o I was referencing The Golden Age (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1563892030/qid=1111022196/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-6987890-3684919?v=glance&s=books), an elseworlds graphic novel. (Very underrated in my opinion.) One of the clever things done is the handling of Jimmy Olsen. When you look back on pre-crisis history, Jimmy Olsen had more super-personas than anyone. His genetic structure must be the stuff of silly putty. Elastic Lad, Turtle Boy, werewolf, various monstrous forms...in champions he would be ridiculously expense :D

Now that I think about it, if you combine this with Universe X mythology, Jimmy would probably be one of the aliens that composed the Asgardians. (There's another long story, but that brings us back to the topic at hand sort of. The Universe X Thor wouldn't be magic, so the hammer point is moot...;) )

[lemming]

Heh, sorry about that :o I was referencing The Golden Age (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1563892030/qid=1111022196/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-6987890-3684919?v=glance&s=books), an elseworlds graphic novel. (Very underrated in my opinion.) One of the clever things done is the handling of Jimmy Olsen. When you look back on pre-crisis history, Jimmy Olsen had more super-personas than anyone. His genetic structure must be the stuff of silly putty. Elastic Lad, Turtle Boy, werewolf, various monstrous forms...in champions he would be ridiculously expense :D
He winds up being the villian in "The Nail" as well.

[Superskrull]

Heh, sorry about that :o I was referencing The Golden Age (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1563892030/qid=1111022196/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-6987890-3684919?v=glance&s=books), an elseworlds graphic novel. (Very underrated in my opinion.) One of the clever things done is the handling of Jimmy Olsen. When you look back on pre-crisis history, Jimmy Olsen had more super-personas than anyone. His genetic structure must be the stuff of silly putty. Elastic Lad, Turtle Boy, werewolf, various monstrous forms...in champions he would be ridiculously expense :D

Um, the villains in the Golden Age were Ultra-Humanite in the body of Tex Thompson & Hitler in the body of Daniel Dunbar. There was no sign of Jimmy in that one. You definitely mean 'The Nail' by Alan Davis.

[Log-Man]

He winds up being the villian in "The Nail" as well.

Oh crap...am I getting the two mixed up? Profuse apologies if I am. I haven't read either literally in years, and no longer possess them either.

And I don't speak English so good... :whistle:

[megaplayboy]

I think the regular CU iconic NPC flying brick to Dark Champs iconic NPC relentless crimefighter should have elements of both thor and supes, the way that HOJ has elements of both Bats and the Punisher.

Maybe the heroic idealism of Big Blue combined with some of the mythic trappings of Goldilocks(including, perhaps, a powerful foci?).

[Champsguy]

I think the regular CU iconic NPC flying brick to Dark Champs iconic NPC relentless crimefighter should have elements of both thor and supes, the way that HOJ has elements of both Bats and the Punisher.

Maybe the heroic idealism of Big Blue combined with some of the mythic trappings of Goldilocks(including, perhaps, a powerful foci?).

How about more of a Captain Marvel (Shazam) type? That combines both well enough. He could even use the genius of Haephestus or whatever to create super-tech stuff, like the pre-crisis Superman.

[Bazza]

Well if we're going to throw in the cool toys that each charater has picked up, Silver Age Supes had Superman Robots almost as powerful as he was, Kryptonian Power Armor, the Supercar, other toys...I'm sure the current Supes has gotten similar junk since the re-boot.)And on Thor's side, his Battle Armor, Gauntlet, Belt, not to mention Toothgrinder and Toothgnasher his goats that pull his chariot. Also Daddy Odin created some kewl items in Thor #25 when The Titan was destroying the universe for the upteenth time.

;)

[Bazza]

Just something I was wondering... but what's to stop Supes from catching Mjolnir on the fly in, say, the same manner the Flash used to catch bullets? He's fast enough to do so, he's strong enough to do so, and as pointed out he's noble enough to do so.The same reason Juggernaut held onto the thong when the hammer returned to Thor.

Is Juggernaut noble and worthy to lift Mjolnir? Cause not!

[OddHat]

And on Thor's side, his Battle Armor, Gauntlet, Belt, not to mention Toothgrinder and Toothgnasher his goats that pull his chariot. Also Daddy Odin created some kewl items in Thor #25 when The Titan was destroying the universe for the upteenth time.

;)

Dude, Kal-El's army of Super-Robots are each almost as fast and powerful as a true Kryptonian, have none of the weaknesses, and using super-robot-speed will easily shove Thor's pathetic flying goat-chariot directly into the Sun!

;)

[Worldmaker]

The same reason Juggernaut held onto the thong when the hammer returned to Thor.

Is Juggernaut noble and worthy to lift Mjolnir? Cause not!


I'll take your non-sequitorious answer to mean "Jack, absolutely nothing would prevent Superman from catching the hammer, since as you point out he's strong enough to stop it in flight, fast enough to catch it in flight, and worthy to carry the thing in the first place.

"It would be utterly unlike the Juggernaut example because, after all, Juggernaut is unworthy to lift it and thus was only dragged back to Thor, since Superman, being a worthy wielder of the hammer according to the rules set down by Odin and Stan Lee, is a totally different case than Juggernaut."

[Worldmaker]

It was just pointed out to me in a PM that for all that Thor fans talk about Thor's "thousands of years of battle experience", its funny how his tactics always devolve to "hit it with his hammer until it breaks".

[Phil]

Hate to keep spoiling everyone's fun by trying to find 'data' to help this argument out, but here's some interesting references from answers.com, drawn in turn from the Marvel Universe:

http://www.answers.com/topic/strength-level

Incalculable A person capable of lifting far in excess of 100 tons, with no given upper limit.
* The Incredible Hulk (Has supported the weight of a 150 billion ton mountain.)
* Thor (Has been able to lift part of the Midgard Serpent's body, whose circumference is greater than that of Earth itself.)
* Kurse (Has had his strength enhanced to a degree said to be double that of Thor.)
* Hercules (Hercules has lifted and hurled giant Sequoia trees and has carried the full weight of a starship.)

Again, incalculable is a bit of a kop-out, but it certainly suggests that Thor is in the Supes kind of class as far as pure STR is concerned.

Regarding the magic question, I would have to suggest that Thor's hammer wouldnt count as magical for the purposes of combating supes invulnerability, for a number of reasons. Firstly, I've only ever seen the magic thing applied to a single weapon: Kingdom Come. Secondly, the ability of a magic object to cut is perhaps distinct from concussive force. Supes body is supposed to be incredibly dense, and that's where the invulnerability comes from (although he's not super-heavy - you go figure!). In HERO terms, it's the difference between KA and Normal, and superheroic hammers are usually normal damage. Of course, it'd still hurt a great deal, but no more so than a punch from the Hulk or Doomsday I'd suspect, and less than Darkseid's omega beams.

[Champsguy]

It was just pointed out to me in a PM that for all that Thor fans talk about Thor's "thousands of years of battle experience", its funny how his tactics always devolve to "hit it with his hammer until it breaks".

Well, those are pretty good tactics. Go with what works.

[Champsguy]

Just something I was wondering... but what's to stop Supes from catching Mjolnir on the fly in, say, the same manner the Flash used to catch bullets? He's fast enough to do so, he's strong enough to do so, and as pointed out he's noble enough to do so.

'Cause a) he's not worthy, and b) he's not worthy. Plus, Thor can energize it when he throws it, surrounding it with mystical 'hurt you" power, and Supes doesn't want to grab that.

[OddHat]

'Cause a) he's not worthy, and b) he's not worthy. Plus, Thor can energize it when he throws it, surrounding it with mystical 'hurt you" power, and Supes doesn't want to grab that.

Hogwash. A lifetime of fighting evil and deep personal integrity (except for the whole Secret ID thing) more than qualify him, save according to warped fan-boy logic. ;)

[Champsguy]

Hogwash. A lifetime of fighting evil and deep personal integrity (except for the whole Secret ID thing) more than qualify him, save according to warped fan-boy logic. ;)

Oh yeah, he's so worthy.

[OddHat]

Oh yeah, he's so worthy.

If we're going for the Silver Age Supes, Thor has no chance whatsoever. Supes shoves Earth into the Sun with Thor on it, using Super Speed to completely construct a new Earth and move everyone on to it before anyone notices. Also, do covers depicting events that didn't take place count? ;)

[Mentor]

Personally, I've never considered Thor's "bash with hammer" to be a magical attack. Now, the hammer is quite capable of throwing out magic attacks, but in the comics I've read Thor rarely seems to use those abilities, prefering the more "direct" approach of simply using the mallet for a few extra dice of HA.

That said however, depending on my mood, I might consider the extra HA dice (not the full STR + HA attack) to be magical if I thought it was important to the game.
Agreed. The magic of Mjolner is the ability to do tremendous damage in the hands of a sufficiently powerful wielder, not to manifest some sort of "mystical energy field". Being hit by Thor with an increase in HtoH damage because of the Uru hammer ought to be sufficient for even Superman to notice.

Like John Desmarais, I wouldn't object to only the additional damage from the weapon being somehow more effective, but I don't consider it necessary.

[Andrew Cermak]

I even recall Thor explaining to the Peter David hulk that it took a "true and noble spirit" to be able to lift it.

Now... is anyone really going to argue that Superman lacks a "true and noble heart"?

From a Thor/Viking perspective? Yeah, I will.

The Vikings had a special hell for men who died of sickness or old age. If you didn't die in battle you were a coward and not a true man.

A warrior spirit is an integral part of any Norse concept of nobility, and Supes doesn't have it. Superman is a hero; he isn't a warrior, and he ultimately doesn't measure up to a Norse god concept of worth.

[GTAgamemaster]

Hey again,

As to Superman holding onto and lifting Mjolnir... of course Superman is worthy!! But that would be a way for Thor to know that he should not be fighting Superman

BIG THOUGHT BUBBLE "By Odin's eye this Man of Steel doth heft the sacred hammer Mjolnir... Mayhaps I misjudged him..."

So Thor offers the olive branch and of course the big blue boy scout accepts... Thats how it would most likely go down with I am sure many different variations.

Gaining the power of Thor is a nice plot device and is dependent on the motives of the one wielding the hammer. My question would be had Thor had to share the power of the Hammer.... If Cap picks up the Hammer does he get the power of Thor?... what happens to the Thor that he was standing side by side with...?

To continue this discussion and take it in a new direction... under what circumstance do these Two titans of their Universes clash?

Is Superman hoodwinked and altered by red kryptonite and set upon Thor by Loki or Dr. Doom?

Is Thor brought through over by Darkseid with a motherbox and "convinced" of the threat that Superman poses. (Not sure how this would come about.... I threw my lot in with Marvel years ago so for those true blue DC fans please expound upon the notion with heart felt devotion.)

Under what plaussible circumstances do these two come together? At that point you can begin the debate again as to who would win and why? ie (maybe in the marvel universe the sun's radiation does not have quite the empowering effect on Superman....kind of homefield advantage for Thor.)

Its been a great thread and I just want to hear more thoughts on the subject as the focus and reasoning are expounded upon.

[lemming]

Since I'm not as familiar with the New Gods, I was wondering how Superman does with them. At least there we have a bit more history to go with and I figure they're closer to what Thor is like. (Not quite, but they're both Kirby at their beginning)

[OddHat]

From a Thor/Viking perspective? Yeah, I will.

The Vikings had a special hell for men who died of sickness or old age. If you didn't die in battle you were a coward and not a true man.

A warrior spirit is an integral part of any Norse concept of nobility, and Supes doesn't have it. Superman is a hero; he isn't a warrior, and he ultimately doesn't measure up to a Norse god concept of worth.

By what strange standard are you judging "Warrior Spirit"? Fighting Evil is what every version of Supes has done for almost seventy years now. Supes won't kill, but then the comics code Thor rarely left human corpses behind him.

[Southern Cross]

Actually,I think this is why Superman couldn't pick up Mjolnir at the end of JLA/Avengers #4.He won't kill.Thor,however,will kill if absolutely necessary.
(I remember how he killed that super-strong Marauder during the Mutant Massacre).
As both Jormungand & Thor are supposed to kill each other in a fair fight during Ragnarok,Odin would not consider anyone incapable of killing worthy of lifting Mjolnir.
This does NOT mean that the current Baron Zemo could lift Mjolnir!!!!!!!
My best guess is that a worthy person would only kill to protect others.
Thus I'd say that Wonder Woman could lift Mjolnir.
As could Saotome Ranma.

[Champsguy]

Since I'm not as familiar with the New Gods, I was wondering how Superman does with them. At least there we have a bit more history to go with and I figure they're closer to what Thor is like. (Not quite, but they're both Kirby at their beginning)

The New Gods suck.

[Champsguy]

Agreed. The magic of Mjolner is the ability to do tremendous damage in the hands of a sufficiently powerful wielder, not to manifest some sort of "mystical energy field".

Umm... yes it can. Thor can summon glowing mystic power around Mjolnir. He does it all the friggin time.

[David Blue]

GTAgamemaster: " If Cap picks up the Hammer does he get the power of Thor?... what happens to the Thor that he was standing side by side with...?"

Yes, that has happened. Thor was already down in some way, there was a battle to be won, and so Captain America used the hammer.

In Marvel, this stunt costs you a thousand Karma - basically good-guy points mostly earned in play - so only a great and extremely experienced hero can do it, and nobody wants to do it twice. That simulation looks to me to be about right.

lemming: "Since I'm not as familiar with the New Gods, I was wondering how Superman does with them."

The nearest brick match is Orion. In the context of the JLA, he was nothing remarkable. He can lift tanks and pound through walls, but lots of other people could do that too, he could not do anything better than other bricks, and they were more remarkable than him in other ways. Orion's status as the Achilles of the New Gods storyline, which he needs to thrive as a character (the way I think Captain Marvel needs to be "Earth's Mightiest Mortal" if he is ever to thrive) just wasn't available. Orion fell flat, he didn't work.

By most standards the senior members of the JLA are extremely overpowered, so that the characters around them become under-powered by comparison and consequently uninteresting. I don't mean that as a criticism of Orion or Thor. I like these characters a lot. I prefer Jack Kirby's scale of power, which is lower than the top-end DC scale.

But if you ask me how I simulate Thor hitting Superman with Mjoller - bounce. OK, let (only) the extra damage from the hammer through as magical if you like. That's still not a fight. That's not Thor's fault, that's just how it is.

Southern Cross: "Thor ... will kill if absolutely necessary. (I remember how he killed that super-strong Marauder during the Mutant Massacre). ... My best guess is that a worthy person would only kill to protect others."

My guess is the same. And Superman also will kill - only if it is absolutely necessary, to protect others. Superman killed the villains General Zod, Faora, and Quex-Ul, because they had wiped out a whole planet, they were bent on further slaughter, and neither they nor Superman (nor I, a reader) had any doubt that they were going to escape any restraint Superman could put on them, other than death, and if he didn't kill them they were going to inflict global genocide on more planets. So Superman did the right, the only thing. That increased his moral standing in my eyes.

[Andrew Cermak]

By what strange standard are you judging "Warrior Spirit"? Fighting Evil is what every version of Supes has done for almost seventy years now. Supes won't kill, but then the comics code Thor rarely left human corpses behind him.

Does Superman enjoy fighting?

[lemming]

The New Gods suck.
Well, Ok. Let's not try that tact.

Though David's answer was more informative. ;)

[CBikle]

Does Superman enjoy fighting?

The original (1938) version did. Used stromgarm tactics and really had no patience for fools.

Of course the original Supes also slapped around women and was originally against the U.S. entering WWII.

[Champsguy]

See, the thing is guys... the fought. It's in continuity (for DC, at least). It was JLA/Avengers, and it came out in '03 and '04. Superman beat Thor, but the thunder god thought he could take Supes in a rematch. And since Kurt Busiek is writing JLA right now, he made sure to mention that the JLA/Avengers crossover is in continuity. So, fanboy talking aside, Superman can lift the hammer... if the need is great enough and Thor wants him to. But he can't just pick it up and swing it around.

[Worldmaker]

Well, those are pretty good tactics. Go with what works.


Thus putting to end all those "Thor would beat Superman because of his battle prowess" statements from the Rabid Thorites.

[Superskrull]

Well, despite the fact that the storyline itself blew ropy goat chunks, I will point out for the whole Viking/Aesir style 'die in battle' thing, Superman did fight Doomsday and staggered back a few paces after killing him only to flop over rather dead himself. The fact that he 'got better' is no worse than the fact that Balder once came back from the dead.

[Worldmaker]

'Cause a) he's not worthy, and b) he's not worthy.


What planet are you living on? Because on this one, Superman is one of the brightest examples of honor and integrity in any comic book universe! By Marvel's own rules, set when Marvel started publishing Thor, Superman is more worthy to wield the hammer than Thor is himself.




Plus, Thor can energize it when he throws it, surrounding it with mystical 'hurt you" power, and Supes doesn't want to grab that.


Funny how I've never actually seen that in any issue of Thor I've ever read, and I've been a constant reader since 1974. If he has ever done that, I'm putting it in the "convenience power not to be taken as canon" category, sort of like Superman's ability to walk through walls or talk in a vacuum.

[Worldmaker]

Also, do covers depicting events that didn't take place count? ;)


No.

[Worldmaker]

A warrior spirit is an integral part of any Norse concept of nobility, and Supes doesn't have it. Superman is a hero; he isn't a warrior, and he ultimately doesn't measure up to a Norse god concept of worth.


Sorry, but while that's all well and good if we were talking about the Thor from ancient Norse mythology, its hogwash when you consider that we're not talking about the mythological Thor, but rather Marvel Comics bastardized version of Thor.

And according to Marvel, "warriorhood" isn't a requirement. Just nobility.

[Champsguy]

No.

Don't be silly. Of course covers count.

[Champsguy]

Sorry, but while that's all well and good if we were talking about the Thor from ancient Norse mythology, its hogwash when you consider that we're not talking about the mythological Thor, but rather Marvel Comics bastardized version of Thor.

And according to Marvel, "warriorhood" isn't a requirement. Just nobility.

No, it's "worthy", not nobility. You can repeat it a million times, and it doesn't change anything. It'll just let me raise my post count in responding.

[keithcurtis]

I like hamburgers.

Keith "." Curtis

[Dr. Anomaly]

I like hamburgers.
The Creeper once called Superman "hamburger" -- when he was getting really strange, under the hands of Keith Giffen. (He was doing it just to try and irritate the Man of Steel.)

[Worldmaker]

No, it's "worthy", not nobility. You can repeat it a million times, and it doesn't change anything. It'll just let me raise my post count in responding.


Don't be obtuse. Especially, don't be intentionally obtuse. (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here... if you really don't know better, then I pity you.)

According to Marvel, what makes a person "worthy" is their nobility. According to Marvel, being a "warrior" (whatever that is supposed to mean... usually the Rabid Thorites always choose some strange definition crafted to specifically exclude Superman in some manner), is not a requirement. You don't even have to be especially outgoing, let along fierce.

All you need is to be noble.

[Worldmaker]

Don't be silly. Of course covers count.

Covers portraying events that never occurred? Not even in the issue the cover is a part of?

No. They don't count, except to the rabids who have no other convincing arguments to support their otherwise insupportable opinions.

[lemming]

I like hamburgers.

Keith "." Curtis
Hmm. I don't think the Humburgler could take either of them.

"Nay varlet! YOU SHALL NOT STEAL MY HAPPY MEAL!"

[Lupus]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand eventually all 'vs' threads devolve into religious discussions. Guys, don't take it all so seriously. This isn't something you need to be so intense over.

[Champsguy]

Don't be obtuse. Especially, don't be intentionally obtuse. (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here... if you really don't know better, then I pity you.)

According to Marvel, what makes a person "worthy" is their nobility. According to Marvel, being a "warrior" (whatever that is supposed to mean... usually the Rabid Thorites always choose some strange definition crafted to specifically exclude Superman in some manner), is not a requirement. You don't even have to be especially outgoing, let along fierce.

All you need is to be noble.

No, you have to be worthy. The Silver Surfer is noble (Marvel's repeatedly said he's incredibly noble), but he can't lift the damn hammer.

[Worldmaker]

No, you have to be worthy. The Silver Surfer is noble (Marvel's repeatedly said he's incredibly noble), but he can't lift the damn hammer.


So the problem is Marvel's lack of internal consistency.

[Champsguy]

So the problem is Marvel's lack of internal consistency.

No, I'd say you're misinterpreting what they've said.

[Worldmaker]

No, I'd say you're misinterpreting what they've said.


Nope. When the dialog in the comic book itself says "nobility", I assume its the same definition of that word as the rest of the English-speaking world.

Except, apparently, the rabid thorites.

[Bazza]

See, the thing is guys... the fought. It's in continuity (for DC, at least). It was JLA/Avengers, and it came out in '03 and '04. Superman beat Thor, but the thunder god thought he could take Supes in a rematch. And since Kurt Busiek is writing JLA right now, he made sure to mention that the JLA/Avengers crossover is in continuity. So, fanboy talking aside, Superman can lift the hammer... if the need is great enough and Thor wants him to. But he can't just pick it up and swing it around.I was gonna post "worthy" = "nobility" :confused: , and I see you covered that.

Would you agree with me that as Odin dictated that another person is "worthy" to wield the hammer of Thor when the circumstances dictate it necessary?

eg: Superman would wield Mjolnir as Thor decreed it and the added power of Mjolnir was needed to break the force field/door to "have at thee" the main villian (I forget his name).

eg: Beta Ray Bill needed the power of Mjolnir to defend his people as he was their sole defender. Bill was deemed 'worthy' as the situation he faced was dire.

eg: Wonder Woman: in the Access DC/Marvel crossover WW lifted Mjolnir. IT could be argued that as her universe was in deep peril and faced annihilation (Reality v Unreality), Mjolnir would help her defend her universe from this fate. There was a great need and Mjolnir deemed her worthy to wield itself.

[Bazza]

How can Wonder Woman, Beta Ray Bill, Captain America and perhaps not Superman wield the Hammer of Thor? My guess as to the reason why -- different writers/editors opinions.

[Phil]

Actually,I think this is why Superman couldn't pick up Mjolnir at the end of JLA/Avengers #4.He won't kill.Thor,however,will kill if absolutely necessary.
(I remember how he killed that super-strong Marauder during the Mutant Massacre).
As both Jormungand & Thor are supposed to kill each other in a fair fight during Ragnarok,Odin would not consider anyone incapable of killing worthy of lifting Mjolnir.
This does NOT mean that the current Baron Zemo could lift Mjolnir!!!!!!!
My best guess is that a worthy person would only kill to protect others.
Thus I'd say that Wonder Woman could lift Mjolnir.
As could Saotome Ranma.
I actually quite like this interpretation of 'worthy'. I think you're probably right about this. Superman is too chivalric, too pure to do what is considered by Norse mythology to be necessary. Interesting...

[Worldmaker]

I actually quite like this interpretation of 'worthy'. I think you're probably right about this. Superman is too chivalric, too pure to do what is considered by Norse mythology to be necessary. Interesting...


And if they were using "Norse Mythology", maybe you'd be correct. But they aren't. They're using "Kirby/Lee Mythology", which says all you need is to be noble.

[Champsguy]

And if they were using "Norse Mythology", maybe you'd be correct. But they aren't. They're using "Kirby/Lee Mythology", which says all you need is to be noble.

No, it says "worthy", not "noble". If you're gonna insist on noble, I'm gonna need exact quotes.

[Southern Cross]

Same here.

[Worldmaker]

I'm still waiting for you to provide exact quotes from any Marvel-related source that says being a warrior is a requirement. That was your claim, wasn't it?

[Worldmaker]

"Strength has nothing to do with it. A weakling who would have trouble with a ten pound hammer could lift it easily if his heart was pure." -- Stan Lee, Interview promoting "The Incredible Hulk Returns", TV Week, May 1988.

Funny, but "if his heart was pure" doesn't sound anything like "he has to be a warrior".

[Southern Cross]

Actually I don't have any specific instances to support my claim,except fot the end of JLA/Avengers#4.But what does "a pure heart" mean?
Remember,after he killed those Phantom Zone criminals,Superman had a mental breakdown,even believing himself to be the vigilante Gangbuster at one point.
He then exiled himself from Earth for a while.
In this instance,I think that "a pure heart" refers to somebody who is essentially incorruptible,regardless of what tragedies that person suffers.Off-hand,I can only think of six comic-book characters who meet that definition:
Thor
Beta Ray Bill
Dargo (the future Thor)
Wonder Woman
Saotome Ranma
Son Goku

[Southern Cross]

Interesting that all the characters could see being able to wield Mjolnir are all warriors.
Besides,Worldmaker there is something you haven't considered,while Marvel's version of Thor bears little resemblance to the original Norse mythology ( Thor has RED hair,dammit),the Norse gods still have to fight (and kill) the giants in the great battle known as Ragnarok.
And I forgot about Hellboy (who actually wielded Mjolnir for a while in a Hellboy novel).That makes SEVEN,not six.

[Worldmaker]

Remember,after he killed those Phantom Zone criminals,Superman had a mental breakdown,even believing himself to be the vigilante Gangbuster at one point.

First, Superman would hardly be alone in the "hero who used lethal force because there was no other choice" category (and really, there was no other choice in that situation). (In point of fact, I dare you to make the claim that Thor, a God noted for racking up quite a kill count, can point to any corpse-of-his-creation and say I had no choice!)

Now would he be the first person to be placed in a "kill or be killed" situation and then suffer mind-crushing guilt over it all. (Talk to any Veteran whose seen a real war... one of my best friends shot himself over such guilt and we were in combat together for a grand total of about half an hour.)

Feelings of guilt in such a situation are normal. They are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of just and moral character.




In this instance,I think that "a pure heart" refers to somebody who is essentially incorruptible,regardless of what tragedies that person suffers.



Wow... what a surprisingly convoluted definition, contructed solely to exclude Superman using the "logic" of saying Superman being guilt-ridden from having been forced to kill is somehow a failure of character.

Given that Stan Lee has also said that bravery, compassion, and a willingness to sacrifice yourself for your fellow man is what makes one worthy, I think we'll use the definition of "pure of heart" that most everyone else (meaning "other than you, apparently) in the world uses. You know, compassion, concern for your fellow man, wanting to do what is right and striving to do nothing but, protecting the weak and defenseless... you know this tune, feel free to sing along.

[Worldmaker]

Interesting that all the characters could see being able to wield Mjolnir are all warriors.


"A weakling who would have trouble with a ten pound hammer could lift it easily if his heart was pure."

So... you can be a weakling and a warrior all at the same time? I guess Joxer from Xena: Warrior Princess thus qualifies. And hey, lets not forget Barney Fife, from the Andy Griffith Show. Never backed down from a fight, that one, even though he knew he'd get his clock cleaned.

[Log-Man]

No, it says "worthy", not "noble". If you're gonna insist on noble, I'm gonna need exact quotes.

If what I read in another thread is true, and Deadpool has lifted the hammer, then all bets are off. I think the only qualifier of worthiness is sales power.

[OddHat]

If what I read in another thread is true, and Deadpool has lifted the hammer, then all bets are off. I think the only qualifier of worthiness is sales power.

Worldmaker provided the quote. Now, of course, Champsguy will conceed the point.
:D

[Catacomb]

Nukes thread from orbit.

Then gets in one last jab.

Superman is a terrible super-hero.

No consistancy, can do anything, beat anyone, and has a cardboard two dimensional personality. A terrible name on top of this and there you go.

The only reason Superman even has a fan base is because he is the first real 'super' but that does not make the base concept that IS Superman any less lame.

A lot of people think it, I'm just throwing it out there. I despise Superman and most of DC because its just bland. Like Star Trek when compared to Babylon 5...bland.

*HOW MANY FAN BOYS WILL NOW GET THEIR DANDER UP*

[Mike W]

This is one of those questions that seems to be debated endlessly. So here's my two cents:

Superman CAN lift Thor's hammer.

The reason is simple: Mjolnir(or more accurately Miolnir) can be lifted only by those who fight in defense of those who deserve/need defending without any intent to profit or gain fame by it and who is not tempted by the power to the point that they would abuse it. Thus, Thor, even when he in his younger days looked down on mortals, could lift the hammer because he was willing to fight for them and for Asgard because they needed defending. He liked the glory that came with winning, but fought out of a sense of noblesse oblige. He was not tempted by the power to do more than he should with it either. In the recent "future Thor" storyline, which as a general rule sucked but did have a few good points, Thor lost the ability to lift his own hammer because he became an oppressor of people, not a defender.

Since Superman fights for right and defends those who need it selflessly and because he would not be tempted by the power of Thor, he could lift the hammer, just like Capt. America can. Most heroes, however, cannot because they would likely be too tempted by the power and would end up abusing it and anyone who would end up abusing the power cannot lift Mjolnir.

[keithcurtis]

It just occurred to me that Pre-Crisis Superman could have a really creative solution. "Hmmm. I can't move that hammer? I'll just have to move the whole <i>planet!</i>"

Keith "Thinking outside the box" Curtis

[Superskrull]

If what I read in another thread is true, and Deadpool has lifted the hammer, then all bets are off. I think the only qualifier of worthiness is sales power.

It is with no sadness at all that I must inform you that that Deadpool was only able to use a fake Mjolnir made by Loki for him while trying to convince Deadpool he was 'Pool's father.. Why Loki decided to do this, you'll have to ask Chris Priest. It was a funny story, but it made no real sense. Much like Deadpool himself, I suppose.

[Superskrull]

"A weakling who would have trouble with a ten pound hammer could lift it easily if his heart was pure."

So... you can be a weakling and a warrior all at the same time? I guess Joxer from Xena: Warrior Princess thus qualifies. And hey, lets not forget Barney Fife, from the Andy Griffith Show. Never backed down from a fight, that one, even though he knew he'd get his clock cleaned.

How quickly they forget the "Thunderfrog" storyarc. When Thor had been transformed by Loki into a rather large and strong (by frog standards) frog while wearing his Belt of Strength, he was able to budge the hammer enough to activate the enchantments upon it and transform himself into a Thor-sized humanoid frog.

Man, Simonson had some wierd but cool stories. Where else would Thor be changed to a frog, hook up with the frogs living around Central Park and thwart an evil plot by the rat population to dump poison in the water supply.

[Log-Man]

It is with no sadness at all that I must inform you that that Deadpool was only able to use a fake Mjolnir made by Loki for him while trying to convince Deadpool he was 'Pool's father.. Why Loki decided to do this, you'll have to ask Chris Priest. It was a funny story, but it made no real sense. Much like Deadpool himself, I suppose.
Oh thank god!

[shaunclinton]

Okay. Reality check time.

Let's consider the evidence.

Have Thor or Supes ever been splatted by a single blow? From ANYONE? No. Good. We have now established Mjolnir does not vaporise Superman with one hit. Plenty of magically powerful beings have tussled with Supes and hurt him, but I don't remember any one-punching him (and before you start, Captain Marvel needed TWO punches, and had surprise on his side!)

Secondly, the Marvel interpretation of who can lift Mjolnir would clearly include Superman. Captain America can clearly lift it and is quite similar in mindset to Superman, which is what would be important. But I'm going to ignore this anyway as how often does Superman steal his foes toys and throw them away in the middle of a fight? Not often is the answer.

So then we have to look at the relative power-levels. Supes is way out there by comparison. I'm not even talking about the extremes. Just day to day power usage has Superman operating way in excess of Thor. In terms of the DCU Thor's closest rivals are Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman, both of whom are consistently shown to be not as powerful as Superman. In the Marvel Universe Thor is clearly not as powerful as the Hulk, yet all available evidence points to Superman outclassing the Hulk. And thus, Thor.

Basically the entire arguement for Thor must centre on Supes much discussed vulnerability to magic. Superman IS vulnerable to magic, but only to the extent that almost all magic can hurt him - but with Superman the difference between hurting him and putting him in the ground is a phenomenal one. Superman is so often cut by demon claws or pierced by vampire fangs/magic swords that we'd quickly fill this topic with examples... but how many times has magic of this sort really done for him? Other types of magic, such as transforms, mind control, etc. seem to work infallibly on him, but damaging magic doesn't really seem to trouble his vast capacity for punishment. In game terms it's likely that his defences are reduced against magic and that his Damage Reduction doesn't work against it rather than a traditional x2 or x1 1/2 Vulnerability (otherwise a nick probably still wouldn't get through!)

It doesn't look good for Thor here.

Just to reinforce the whole issue of Thor's failure here, there are two ways to interpret Supes vulnerability to magic.

1) He's treated like a normal man against it.

2) He isn't as tough against it, but is still incredibly resilient.

I think most rational people would go with option 2), however for those of you in the 1) camp, I think it has to be accepted that there are two ways of looking at Mjolnir... and both are far more readily acceptable than option 1) above.

A) Mjolnir counts as a magical attack.

B) Mjolnir is a magical hammer, but it's really just a hammer for attack purposes.

I'm sure most people who roleplay think of it as A), probably due to the prevalence of "Magic Weapons" and +1 Hammers of Godliness, but in the world of comics I think option B) is equally likely and readily believable.

To sum up: You could argue till your blue in the face and still not come up with a solid answer. But on the face of all available evidence I think the rational man would have to give this fight to the man in the 'S'.

P.S. 'Superman is a lame character' is not a valid reason for him losing.

[Mike W]

My argument on this has always been that Thor has enough power to beat Supes(although if Supes kicks in his full speed it would be tough), but he probably wouldn't exercise it. Thor likes to brawl, and he can't beat Supes in a brawl. If he falls back on all the magic that he knows and that Mjolnir can help him control(including the rarely used "Thor Power", equivalent to the Odin Power and definitely cannonical) then he DOES have enough magical might and raw power to beat Supes, since Big Blue wouldn't take the magic as well as he normally does. But again, Thor likes to brawl and would probably lose the fight because of it, long before he tried to do any major magic.

[David Blue]

Okay. Reality check time.

[...]

Basically the entire arguement for Thor must centre on Supes much discussed vulnerability to magic. Superman IS vulnerable to magic, but only to the extent that almost all magic can hurt him - but with Superman the difference between hurting him and putting him in the ground is a phenomenal one. Superman is so often cut by demon claws or pierced by vampire fangs/magic swords that we'd quickly fill this topic with examples... but how many times has magic of this sort really done for him? Other types of magic, such as transforms, mind control, etc. seem to work infallibly on him, but damaging magic doesn't really seem to trouble his vast capacity for punishment. In game terms it's likely that his defences are reduced against magic and that his Damage Reduction doesn't work against it rather than a traditional x2 or x1 1/2 Vulnerability (otherwise a nick probably still wouldn't get through!)I agree with your post pretty much all along the line, except for the unlikely phrase "reality check" in this context. (grin)

Bit I am curious: how would you reflect Superman's vulnerability to magic in game terms?

The obvious solution would be to leave his physical defenses fairly but not entirely intact, as you suggest, but cut his mental defence by half or totally and leave him bereft of Power Defense against magic, so he's a sucker for magical transformation attacks.

I don't think that works, because Champions hasn't got a proper magical attack system from the point of view of reflecting comic-book magic. What Hero has is a game mechanic that can be and therefore is an end-run around "normal," readily justifiable physical, energy and flash defenses.

Typically, instead of doing your autofire killing attack on a hero without resistant defenses, you do your autofire BODY drain on a character without Power Defence. It's the Thompson gun of Roland the headless Thompson gunner, or something like that. (There are many ways besides BODY drains to do the "transformation to dead character". But the point remains Champions style bang-for-a-buck, not comic-book story-telling.)

So how do you reflect a character like Superman, who should be vulnerable to comic-book magic, but only as long as it acts like comic-book magic, not like a game mechanic?

[Champsguy]

Okay. Reality check time.

Let's consider the evidence.

Have Thor or Supes ever been splatted by a single blow? From ANYONE? No. Good. We have now established Mjolnir does not vaporise Superman with one hit. Plenty of magically powerful beings have tussled with Supes and hurt him, but I don't remember any one-punching him (and before you start, Captain Marvel needed TWO punches, and had surprise on his side!)

Gog one-shotted Superman, many times. Read The Kingdom. Actually, no, don't read it. It was crap. Just take my word for it. But, I agree with you, I don't think he'll be splattered by Mjolnir in one shot.


Secondly, the Marvel interpretation of who can lift Mjolnir would clearly include Superman. Captain America can clearly lift it and is quite similar in mindset to Superman, which is what would be important. But I'm going to ignore this anyway as how often does Superman steal his foes toys and throw them away in the middle of a fight? Not often is the answer.

I disagree that Superman is "clearly" worthy. Might he be? Oh sure, yeah. But I think there's definitely a possibility that he can't lift it. I know that most people here seem to be holding their hands over their ears and saying "Yah Yah Yah I Can't Hear You" any time I mention JLA/Avengers, but issue #4 had Superman able to lift it once (when Thor threw it to him, in an hour of great need) and unable to lift it later in the issue (after the conflict had been resolved). That was only a year ago, and Busiek has kept it in DC continuity (see the recent Crime Syndicate/JLA storyline).

Especially when you consider the crap that is Identity Crisis, you've got a real argument for many of the Justice Leaguers not being as heroic as they seem.


So then we have to look at the relative power-levels. Supes is way out there by comparison. I'm not even talking about the extremes. Just day to day power usage has Superman operating way in excess of Thor. In terms of the DCU Thor's closest rivals are Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman, both of whom are consistently shown to be not as powerful as Superman. In the Marvel Universe Thor is clearly not as powerful as the Hulk, yet all available evidence points to Superman outclassing the Hulk. And thus, Thor.

Disagree, disagree, disagree. Thor is more powerful than the Hulk, and by a decent amount. He's just not quite as strong. Thor has dropped ol' greenskin in one shot before. But, as is said later, Thor likes to brawl. He usually doesn't pull out the Unfettered Might just on a whim. The whole "Superman is way out there" is a matter of opinion. I think they're very evenly matched, if you look at "average" power levels.


Basically the entire arguement for Thor must centre on Supes much discussed vulnerability to magic.

(snipped)

To sum up: You could argue till your blue in the face and still not come up with a solid answer. But on the face of all available evidence I think the rational man would have to give this fight to the man in the 'S'.

P.S. 'Superman is a lame character' is not a valid reason for him losing.

Superman has a wide variety of powers, as does Thor. Each seems to have no real upper limit as to what they can do. But I don't see Superman snatching the hammer out of the air at super-speed any more than I see Thor throwing the hammer through Superman because it's magical. Those are both cop-out endings to the fight.

Personally, I think Mike W has it right. Either Superman or Thor could win this fight. The problem is that Thor just likes to fight. He'll want to match up mano-a-mano against Superman. Just as Superman will hold back some of his power because he doesn't usually use every advantage at his disposal ('cause he doesn't have to), Thor will hold back some of his power because he'd rather just punch you in the face. Thor doesn't use his XD movement, or his life-drain, or his Unfettered Might, because that would end the wonderful fight he's having. The problem is, Superman is a little stronger, a little faster, and a little tougher than Thor. A full-out no-holds-barred "I absolutely MUST win this and can't hold anything back" battle will go differently than just a regular old crossover super fight.

[shaunclinton]

First up, David Blue.

Superman's Vulnerability to Magic.
It is a bit of a thorny one and I've half built or quarter built Superman a few times in Champions and tend to go for something like this (though I must admit that usually I have his defence vary based on his Solar END Reserve, but I'll just go with him at 'normal' levels)

When building his defences I tend to give him either 75% or 50% damage reduction. If I give him 75% I usually limit the last increase so that it only applies at 50% against the likes of magic, whilst in the 50% build I'd let him have it at full against it.

I also tend to give him enough doubly hardened resistant DEF to stand up to most earthly weapons easily (Howitzers, Mortars, Missiles, etc.) which I'd say has to be in about the 25-40 point range in most cases. I tend to make his ED lower than his PD by a bit (say 30 and 40 respectively) as he looks more easily fazed by energy weapons in general. I'd give about 3/4 of this DEF the Not vs. magical attacks limitation and would give ALL of the Hardening the same limitation.

It's then essential to give him some more PD and ED. This is the thorny part though as Supes shouldn't really take any STUN from convential weapons, but depending on how you play it's 'possible' for a lucky headshot from a rifle to do of the order of 90+ STUN (2d6+1 RKA, +2 STUN Multiple) whereas most STR 100 characters from the DCU should be able to harm Supes with most punches, which will only average 70 STUN. The best fix for this is probably some sort of house-rule about taking STUN from attacks whose BODY has no chance of penetrating (although how many attacks do penetrate against the Man of Steel) which I believe many people here use. The way that's probably most appropriate within the rules is to buy maybe an extra 10 or 20 PD and ED for everyday use and then to buy a further 30 points which only protect against 'conventional' damage (ie. falling, getting shot by real guns, etc.) and only affect STUN.

I think there are a lot of other factors that come into play here though. Too many to accurately model his defences properly in a game system. One of my favourite things to do is to give him a Solar END reserve that gets eaten into as he uses powers and as he takes damage. As his END reserve drops below certain levels his powers reduce accordingly, but still allow for the possibility of using that END faster to use powers one-off at the higher level with x10 END multiples and the like. As his defences drop off he can be hurt more and more (although damage reduction should stay till near the end.)

Anyway, I'm warbling off topic here. Back to it then!

Champsguy:

I've read the Kingdom, it's been a while but... Gog DOES NOT one punch Superman at any point. The best he does is, to my recollection, blast Supes once (through Mr Mztptlk I must admit) and then finish him off with a second blast. Even when he shows up at the birth he gets a free surprise blast in Superman's back and still only stuns him. An off-hand display of the same staffs power annihalates at least one Amazon and injures (at least) a few more. It's never made explicit exactly what sort of power the staff possesses other than that of "dozens of Red Suns" or somesuch. But based on Gog's origins it's fair to say it could be considered as mystical as Mjolnir. Gog also had power on a scale that Thor does not possess (though I'm quite sure if they met there'd be plenty of "I say thee NAY!" and the like and Thor'd win, such is comics!) and might be a good one to call upon for reference, as his power has a 'mystical' origin. Now, I'm sure we can argue all day about 'Kingdom Come' Superman and how he's more powerful and whatnot. But we know he's still not resistant to magic.

Onto worthiness. I think that enough writers have been involved over the years to give plenty of evidence to anyone who wants to discredit Superman's nobility, but the accepted fact is that, in the DCU, few if any are considered more noble. We have to go with that internal consistency in my opinion and that would place him on the sort of footing Captain America enjoys, setting a clear case for him lifting Mjolnir. I could (but won't!) touch on the AWFUL "Eternal Beloved" storyline, but that would just be poor show on my part!

I must disagree on the average power level.

Thor has been shown to operate in the Superman ball-park, and has been shown to do so on many occasions. But it is by no means his average level. Meanwhile the occasions when Supes goes to extremes are entirely different and tend to involve levels of power that few characters can imitate, pushing planets, surviving blasts equal to multiple nukes, outracing light, etc.

In my opinion Thor just can't match that. But we aren't looking so much at extremes here, or we aren't supposed to be. If we break it all down.

Superman is faster.
Superman is stronger.
Superman is tougher.

I think those three truths are easily proven. I think that most people would accept them. We can also add in...

Thor may be a better fighter.
Thor may have the more powerful energy attack.

But neither is as obvious as the three above in my opinion. And, in relation to Thor's energy blasts, how often does he finish off an opponent with these as opposed to a 'smite'? Not very. You could argue that it's his love of brawling, but I'd also argue his blows are more powerful.

In the end I think we have to side with Superman. Thor would give him a good fight, but time'd be a wasting and he'd crank it up a gear. Thor would be quickly put out to pasture after that.

[Bazza]

Champsguy

Do you reckon the Big S could knckdown (marvel's) Mangog? (cf. Thor #25)? :)

[Wanderer]

Disagree, disagree, disagree. Thor is more powerful than the Hulk, and by a decent amount. He's just not quite as strong. Thor has dropped ol' greenskin in one shot before. But, as is said later, Thor likes to brawl. He usually doesn't pull out the Unfettered Might just on a whim. The whole "Superman is way out there" is a matter of opinion. I think they're very evenly matched, if you look at "average" power levels.

As an aside note, I have to disagree about Hulk being stronger than Thor. In the recently seen ("reign of future Thor") storyline, the Asgardian has a full-out, no holds-barred fight against Hulk and the Thing, together. He is mystically stopped from accessing the Odinpower at the time, and he is without Mjolnir (unfortunately the author doesn't show and wastes a good occasion for clarifying how many of his StormGod divine power tricks -such as the energy bolts, or the life-drain; for the EDM, it's alomost a given he needs the hammer- he can access w/o Mjolnir, if any), yet he manages to kill both of the Marvel powerhouses (the following shot he is battered but triumphant over their corpses, with huge stone sabs piercing their chests), in all likelihood relying mostly, if not exclusively, on his super-strength and resilience. True, it costs him an arm, an eye, and hours of fight, but it puts huge eivdence against the legend that "Hulk is stronger than Thor").

It's just that Thor is usually much more reluctant to give in to strength-boosting battle-rage than Hulk (because for him, it always carries the risk of falling into irreversible, uncontrollable and contagious to Asgardians full-blown berserk madness: Odin has commented more than once that he would have to put down any Asgardian that would develop it like a rabid dog).

Hmm, I wonder how to put in Hero terms: let's see an Enraged/Berserk-triggered Continous Aid or Succor to all Characteristics and Asgardian Attack Powers, with double side effects: it activates Enraged/Berserk in combat and it works as a Mind/Soul BOECV Transform inflicting constant Berserk homicidal rage madness, heals like body.

[Worldmaker]

The "in time of need" limitation was apparently added recently, and by "recently" I mean just so it could be included in the JLA/Avengers crossover so Thor could seem to have something over Superman as a sop to Thor's fans since Superman had earlier been shown giving Thor.the beatdown.

At least according to Geoff Johns.

[Worldmaker]

In re: Thor vs. Hulk, I remember a storyline where the Hulk (not yet in any sort of heavy rage) gets hit in the chest with Mjolnir and the hammer bounces, royally pissing the Hulk off.

[Champsguy]

The "in time of need" limitation was apparently added recently, and by "recently" I mean just so it could be included in the JLA/Avengers crossover so Thor could seem to have something over Superman as a sop to Thor's fans since Superman had earlier been shown giving Thor.the beatdown.

At least according to Geoff Johns.

Geoff Johns didn't write the JLA/Avengers crossover. And I always thought the "time of need" thing was thrown on there so they could draw Superman holding the hammer at all. After all, other characters have picked the hammer up before when it wasn't a time of need.

[Champsguy]

In re: Thor vs. Hulk, I remember a storyline where the Hulk (not yet in any sort of heavy rage) gets hit in the chest with Mjolnir and the hammer bounces, royally pissing the Hulk off.

I also remember a storyline where one blow from the thrown hammer drops the Hulk.

[Champsguy]

Champsguy

Do you reckon the Big S could knckdown (marvel's) Mangog? (cf. Thor #25)? :)

Don't know. It's been a while since I looked at the Mangog storyline, and I didn't pay too much attention to it when it came out.

[Champsguy]

Champsguy:

I've read the Kingdom, it's been a while but... Gog DOES NOT one punch Superman at any point. The best he does is, to my recollection, blast Supes once (through Mr Mztptlk I must admit) and then finish him off with a second blast. Even when he shows up at the birth he gets a free surprise blast in Superman's back and still only stuns him. An off-hand display of the same staffs power annihalates at least one Amazon and injures (at least) a few more. It's never made explicit exactly what sort of power the staff possesses other than that of "dozens of Red Suns" or somesuch. But based on Gog's origins it's fair to say it could be considered as mystical as Mjolnir. Gog also had power on a scale that Thor does not possess (though I'm quite sure if they met there'd be plenty of "I say thee NAY!" and the like and Thor'd win, such is comics!) and might be a good one to call upon for reference, as his power has a 'mystical' origin. Now, I'm sure we can argue all day about 'Kingdom Come' Superman and how he's more powerful and whatnot. But we know he's still not resistant to magic.

I seem to remember him killing Superman with one shot fairly easily (at least one or two of the times he shoots him). May have to hunt around for that comic (or just let it die, since I don't really want to read it again).


Onto worthiness. I think that enough writers have been involved over the years to give plenty of evidence to anyone who wants to discredit Superman's nobility, but the accepted fact is that, in the DCU, few if any are considered more noble. We have to go with that internal consistency in my opinion and that would place him on the sort of footing Captain America enjoys, setting a clear case for him lifting Mjolnir. I could (but won't!) touch on the AWFUL "Eternal Beloved" storyline, but that would just be poor show on my part!

Again, maybe.


I must disagree on the average power level.

Thor has been shown to operate in the Superman ball-park, and has been shown to do so on many occasions. But it is by no means his average level. Meanwhile the occasions when Supes goes to extremes are entirely different and tend to involve levels of power that few characters can imitate, pushing planets, surviving blasts equal to multiple nukes, outracing light, etc.

In my opinion Thor just can't match that. But we aren't looking so much at extremes here, or we aren't supposed to be. If we break it all down.

That all depends. Although, Superman doesn't push planets anymore. And Thor has survived nuclear attacks before. It really gets thrown off-kilter when you start including "well, Thor is as tough as a herald of Galactus, and they did this and this". I don't think anyone would say that Supes would outright stomp the Silver Surfer, but Thor has beaten him every time they've fought.


Superman is faster.
Superman is stronger.
Superman is tougher.

I think those three truths are easily proven. I think that most people would accept them. We can also add in...

Yep, but I don't think he's tremendously better than Thor in any of those categories.


Thor may be a better fighter.
Thor may have the more powerful energy attack.

But neither is as obvious as the three above in my opinion. And, in relation to Thor's energy blasts, how often does he finish off an opponent with these as opposed to a 'smite'? Not very. You could argue that it's his love of brawling, but I'd also argue his blows are more powerful.

Thor's energy attacks and his physical attacks scale upwards a lot. I'm not sure if his unfettered might is more powerful than his life drain, but both are more powerful than his standard "whap".


In the end I think we have to side with Superman. Thor would give him a good fight, but time'd be a wasting and he'd crank it up a gear. Thor would be quickly put out to pasture after that.

Again, I think Supes will probably beat Thor in an average brawl, unless they both start pulling out the big moves. Then it's anybody's guess.

[shaunclinton]

Hmmm, I won't weigh in on the Thor killing Hulk and Thing issue. I'd just go into meltdown. Whatever next, will we have Punisher kills the Marvel Universe taken as fact? Anyway...

Most of what you have to say is pretty reasonable Champsguy, but I do dispute the hammer taking the Hulk down one-shot. Wouldn't mind a story reference for this as I'm sure there must be mitigating circumstances. As for The Kingdom, I dug it out this afternoon and there isn't any one-shotting, although two-shotting Superman is mighty bloody impressive!!! However...

I was thinking about the original idea of this thread, which is basically talking about whether or not Supes is vulnerable somehow to hits from Mjolnir.

This got me thinking about all the times I've ever seen Supes take damage from mystical opponents and raises a possible point.

Supes is clearly vulnerable to transformative/manipulative magics, he's often affected by them.
Magical beings with claws, fangs, pointy magic blades, magic fire, etc. seem to have little or no difficulty cutting him/harming him.

But in all the examples I can think of, I can never recall one were bludgeoning damage from a magical source was shown to have any additional effect on him. This suggests that whilst he may not have much (or any) resistant defences against magic, he probably still has oodles of normal defence.

Only two examples infer some effect along these lines, both are fairly ambiguous.

The first is when Captain Marvel sucker-punches him a couple of times to put him down, followed by the quip "I got lucky and he's vulnerable to magic" or words to that effect. Is Supes vulnerable to Marvel's punches or is he just being modest? Most likely two punches at x2 STUN for surprise from Marvel would be enough to drop almost anyone, especially if he "got lucky".

The second is in the Elseworlds Legend's of the Worlds Finest when the demonically enhanced Manbat is "crushing his windpipe" - however I should point out that his power has been increased to the point where it looks like he is doing it through raw STR and not via any kind of vulnerability.

I can't think of any other examples of 'normal' damage magical attacks having any increased effect on him and he seems to trade blows with mystical foes fairly well. Which could well mean that the entire debate as to Mjolnir - enchanted weapon or magically constructed weapon is somewhat irrelevant!

Thoughts? Anyone else think of any examples?

[Mike W]

The "future Thor" thing they recently did was lame and had all kinds of problems. I'd be very hesitant to consider anything that happened there representative of Thor's power levels. Like I said, about the only thing they got right was that Thor would lose the ability to lift his hammer. The rest...I'd rather just forget it happened.

[Worldmaker]

Geoff Johns didn't write the JLA/Avengers crossover. And I always thought the "time of need" thing was thrown on there so they could draw Superman holding the hammer at all. After all, other characters have picked the hammer up before when it wasn't a time of need.


No, but he is the current Avengers writer, and thus has a say in how Thor is portrayed now and in the past. And what he's saying is that he's pissed about the "new restriction" placed on the characters he's writing.

And your snide remark in re: Superman is utter rubbish. If Captain America is "pure of heart" enough to casually lift the hammer, Superman (you remember him, right? The guy whose occasionally called "the big blue boy scout" by his fellow heroes?) most certainly is.

[Worldmaker]

I seem to remember him killing Superman with one shot fairly easily (at least one or two of the times he shoots him). May have to hunt around for that comic (or just let it die, since I don't really want to read it again).

You're memory is faulty. He did no such thing. Its just your rampant anti-Superman prejudice showing.




Again, maybe.

No, not maybe. Its just your rampant anti-Superman prejudice showing.




Again, I think Supes will probably beat Thor in an average brawl, unless they both start pulling out the big moves. Then it's anybody's guess.


Thor doesn't go in for "big moves". His idea of tactics is "hit it with my hammer till it breaks, then hit it one or two more times".

[Champsguy]

You're memory is faulty. He did no such thing. Its just your rampant anti-Superman prejudice showing.


No, not maybe. Its just your rampant anti-Superman prejudice showing.

I like Superman, you retard. He's one of my favorite heroes. I went and hunted around for years until I found the old Mayfair DC Superman Pre-Crisis sourcebook, just 'cause I think he's cool. I've got a Superman beach towel. At my insistence, we upped the power level of Superman in our Marvel/DC combined universe to 150 Str.

I just like Thor too.



Thor doesn't go in for "big moves". His idea of tactics is "hit it with my hammer till it breaks, then hit it one or two more times".

That's your anti-Thor bias showing.

[Champsguy]

No, but he is the current Avengers writer, and thus has a say in how Thor is portrayed now and in the past. And what he's saying is that he's pissed about the "new restriction" placed on the characters he's writing.

And your snide remark in re: Superman is utter rubbish. If Captain America is "pure of heart" enough to casually lift the hammer, Superman (you remember him, right? The guy whose occasionally called "the big blue boy scout" by his fellow heroes?) most certainly is.

No, Bendis (hereafter referred to as "the hack") is the current Avengers writer. Snide remark? Whatever.

And Cap is more worthy than the current Superman. Especially considering the crap in Identity Crisis.

[Worldmaker]

That's your anti-Thor bias showing.

No... its my having read Thor pretty faithfully since... oh... 1974 or so. You see, I'm arguing from the point of view of a non-Superman fan/Thor fan who has read the books, and thus knows whats going on.

I'm a Thor fan. Make no mistake. I just hate it when people say idiotic nonsense like "No way Superman could lift the hammer!" and then utterly ignore any and all evidence that says otherwise. Likewise, I hate it when peolpe say idiotic nonsense like "Thor's as powerful as Superman", when the truth is, he's never been portrayed as having half of Superman's raw power.

Generally, when its done the person making the "argument" says something like "Well, in this one-shot single issue, Thor did something that he's never been able to do since, and that proves the issue." Same sort of "argument" occurs with the Superman/Mjolnir lifting scenario. The definitions of "worthy of the power of Thor" that the anti-Superman contingent use are always carefully crafted to exclude Superman.

[Worldmaker]

And Cap is more worthy than the current Superman. Especially considering the crap in Identity Crisis.

By what measure is Captain "Turn Tail And Run Rather Than Face Down My Own Country's Leaders" America more worthy than Superman? Explain it to me, as if you would explain it to a four-year-old. Because it reads like your own personal revisionist crap to me.


As for IC, are you talking about the memory-alteration crap that Superman played no part in? That crap?

Sorry, but there's a concept you need to learn. Its called "preponderance of evidence". If 20 years of comic books say "Superman is pure as the driven snow", then one seven issue miniseries doesn't change that.

[keithcurtis]

Geez, guys. Take a breath. They're only funny books.

Keith "Could Wolverine's claws cut Captain America's shield?" Curtis

[Log-Man]

Keith "Could Wolverine's claws cut Captain America's shield?" Curtis
I almost lost a friend over this one in 6th grade. :o

[Champsguy]

By what measure is Captain "Turn Tail And Run Rather Than Face Down My Own Country's Leaders" America more worthy than Superman? Explain it to me, as if you would explain it to a four-year-old. Because it reads like your own personal revisionist crap to me.

Are you talking about something recent, or his crisis of conscience following the Nixon=Secret Empire thing back in the 70s? Or something else?


As for IC, are you talking about the memory-alteration crap that Superman played no part in? That crap?

Sorry, but there's a concept you need to learn. Its called "preponderance of evidence". If 20 years of comic books say "Superman is pure as the driven snow", then one seven issue miniseries doesn't change that.

Supes knew. Besides, it's retcon. So now he knew about this from the beginning, off panel. Is it a crap story? Oh, hell yeah. But still, the current continuity Superman is not the moral paragon of virtue that the Pre-Crisis one is/was. And don't talk to me about the preponderance of the evidence. Identity Crisis said that all those years of fresh snow were only helping to cover up the bodies.

[Champsguy]

No... its my having read Thor pretty faithfully since... oh... 1974 or so. You see, I'm arguing from the point of view of a non-Superman fan/Thor fan who has read the books, and thus knows whats going on.

I'm a Thor fan. Make no mistake. I just hate it when people say idiotic nonsense like "No way Superman could lift the hammer!" and then utterly ignore any and all evidence that says otherwise. Likewise, I hate it when peolpe say idiotic nonsense like "Thor's as powerful as Superman", when the truth is, he's never been portrayed as having half of Superman's raw power.

Generally, when its done the person making the "argument" says something like "Well, in this one-shot single issue, Thor did something that he's never been able to do since, and that proves the issue." Same sort of "argument" occurs with the Superman/Mjolnir lifting scenario. The definitions of "worthy of the power of Thor" that the anti-Superman contingent use are always carefully crafted to exclude Superman.

You're talking about two characters who have been published for decades. On the cosmic power scale, both, especially Superman, have been up and down more times than a whore's drawers. It's all a matter of which versions you're talking about. As someone said earlier, I'm pretty certain that Pre-Crisis Supes could beat Hela-cursed Thor, and Odinpower Thor could beat Pre-Doomsday-fight Superman. The rest is a matter of exactly which period you're talking about.

And you're being willfully obstinate about a character you profess to like. Thor just hits on things until they break? Riiiight. Thor never sends targets to other dimensions, or uses his unfettered might, or his life drain, or sucks and opponents energy into his hammer and then redirects it elsewhere.

[Southern Cross]

Exactly,Champsguy.
And Worldmaker,until JLA/Avengers #4,I too thought that Superman was worthy enough to lift Mjolnir.If Kurt Busiek states that Superman can only lift Mjolnir if there is no other choice,I'm inclined to agree with him.

[Andrew Cermak]

I just hate it when people say idiotic nonsense like "No way Superman could lift the hammer!" and then utterly ignore any and all evidence that says otherwise.

Kind of an ironic complaint, considering we've seen Superman fail to lift the hammer.

[Bazza]

Geez, guys. Take a breath. They're only funny books.

Keith "Could Wolverine's claws cut Captain America's shield?" CurtisOr could Takofanes beat Dr Destroyer (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11399)? :D

[keithcurtis]

Only if Captain America could defeat Batman.

Keith "Cause you know, Batman's got Normal Characteristic Maxima..." Curtis

[Southern Cross]

Actually,if you convert his MEGS stats to the Hero System,it's obvious that Batman doesn't have Normal Characteristic Maxima.....