Summoning stuff

[Sean Waters]

Riiiight. I was looking at summoning and came up with a couple of discussion points.

1. Summoning vehicles: does it make any sense to always summon the same vehicle? I mean a fresh one each time is going to be so much more useful than one that has used up fuel and taken damage. I would go as far as suggesting that summoning the same vehicle each time is more of a limitation than an advantage: what do you think?

2. Variation in characters summoned. I want to be able to summon people, say up to 50 points. How much customisation can I apply, for instance if i want a biologist can i summon a biologist? If I want a linguist, can I swap points around to get someone who will take me in their German mouth? (Rep for the first person to nail that reference, although I admit those in Britain have an unfair advantage....). Also what advantage do I need to apply: will the 'expanded class +1/4' do it?

3. Summoning specific people. First, as this is an advantage it has to be used, so presumably you can not use the power built with this advantage, to summon generic individuals. Second, how do you go about summoning more than one specific individual? Do you buy adders to double the number you can summon at one time, or use expanded class again, and if the latter, would the +1/4 level allow you to summon, in effect, ANY individual with the requisite points?

I know I could ask Mr Long, but I thought I'd kick it around down here first to get some sort of consensus (Hmm. Like that's going to happen.... :uranus: )

[GaryB]

1) In my games, I'd never allow anyone to use summon for a vehicle. The mechanics just aren't the same, unless of course it was a ridable beat...but that still isn't a 'vehicle' and one still have to bargain-ego contest it to control it.
However, they could buy a vehicle with the proper powers and advantages to be able to summon it. It the vehicle falls into the realm of being 'man-made'.

2) You would need expanded class of things (+1/2 version at best). However, the GM should watch out for these types of summons and limit them to a few types of skilled normals or make the humans sort of hostile and unwilling to help without some major convining.

3) Expanded Class of beings (+1), Specific Being (+1) would work. But this is some that once again the GM will have to step up and review very carefully. The consequences of such a power could be deadly to an unprepared GM. For instance, Mr. King Bad Guy is in town. Really? Summon summon summon...Go to Jail Mr. King Bad Guy (after Ego contest). This of course depends on the points spent into the summon.

[Sean Waters]

1) In my games, I'd never allow anyone to use summon for a vehicle. The mechanics just aren't the same, unless of course it was a ridable beat...but that still isn't a 'vehicle' and one still have to bargain-ego contest it to control it.
However, they could buy a vehicle with the proper powers and advantages to be able to summon it. It the vehicle falls into the realm of being 'man-made'.



Yes, I gagged as well, but it in the official rule book now, as opposed to just on the FAQ, so we'll be seeing it turning up. :sick: You have to buy it as Slavishly Loyal, which gets around the problem of having to Ego-control it.

[zornwil]

I think I have to stick up for Summon used for vehicles. How else would you do it, if you want a vehicle to appear and it isn't a regular vehicle of yours or such?

[Sean Waters]

I think I have to stick up for Summon used for vehicles. How else would you do it, if you want a vehicle to appear and it isn't a regular vehicle of yours or such?

Fair enough: it is all official nowadays, it is just that I don't like it. I mean, you still have the relatively silly point that the vehicle will only obey your EGO in commands before you need to re-summon it.

How to do it? Build a vehicle with a triggered megascale teleport, or one that responds to a signal and comes to you using normal movement. The vehicle is then THERE, no messing, and if the villain finds your hideout and breaks in, they can plant a bomb in the cockpit, or whatever.

I can see it being useful for the mech-kinetic who can create vehicles and gadgets from scrap, but that still seems like either a transform or the sfx of a VPP to me.

We had that debate a while back about green lantern force bubbles being summoned vehicles. Hmm. Felt wrong to me then (inventive as the idea was), and still does now. Huge scope for abuse. Mind you, if it is the same vehicle every time, it does become insanely exxpensive to summon it, so there is a balance :)

I wasn't arguing against vehicles in summon: I've lost that one! I was looking at the entry and suggesting that summoning the same vehicle every time was a limitation not an advantage as the rules suggest: what do you think?

[zornwil]

Fair enough: it is all official nowadays, it is just that I don't like it. I mean, you still have the relatively silly point that the vehicle will only obey your EGO in commands before you need to re-summon it.

How to do it? Build a vehicle with a triggered megascale teleport, or one that responds to a signal and comes to you using normal movement. The vehicle is then THERE, no messing, and if the villain finds your hideout and breaks in, they can plant a bomb in the cockpit, or whatever.

I can see it being useful for the mech-kinetic who can create vehicles and gadgets from scrap, but that still seems like either a transform or the sfx of a VPP to me.

We had that debate a while back about green lantern force bubbles being summoned vehicles. Hmm. Felt wrong to me then (inventive as the idea was), and still does now. Huge scope for abuse. Mind you, if it is the same vehicle every time, it does become insanely exxpensive to summon it, so there is a balance :)

I wasn't arguing against vehicles in summon: I've lost that one! I was looking at the entry and suggesting that summoning the same vehicle every time was a limitation not an advantage as the rules suggest: what do you think?
I do agree that Vehicle Summoning needs some finessing. I think where it gets difficult is as we reason from effect and find where it doesn't quite fit Summon. But now we're into a level of detail. I don't disagree whatsoever with your megascale teleport, and I think very often those sorts of things will be the real answers.

Similarly, if I'm the type of character who "happens" to find a vehicle that can do roughly what I need wherever I am, it's probable that really the best build is to make a Vehicle the character wants, and there's no Summon, the SFX are simply that you come across a vehicle that has a subset of capabilties wherever you are, Limitations based simply on "Must be in a situation this sort of Vehicle might be in" for the Vehicle to function.

As to your question, I think it depends just how useful it is. To me the rare situation you'd want to actually Summon a specific vehicle instead of own it, I'd suspect there's an ulterior reason making this an Advantage ("nobody can get to my Vehicle but me! Just ME ME ME!"), so I guess all I can say is I'd proceed carefully.

Helpful, eh? ;) Seriously, it just seems like such a judgement call and so SFX-based that I find it hard to make a blanket statement.

[GaryB]

If you want a different vehicle as well as to be able to summon it to you.

Teleport and/or Dimensional Travel will work.

Also add in Shapeshift and Size Powers and it's a different vehicle upon need.

Add in Flight, Swimming, Gliding movement multipowers to fit the type of vehicle.

Add in Healing/Tranform to fix any damage sustained last time the vehicle was summoned or used.

The problem with using summoned, is that it calls upon a character template more than a vehicle template IMO. Otherwise, I might as well add my base or computer to a summon and then...we are just getting silly.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you want a different vehicle as well as to be able to summon it to you.

Teleport and/or Dimensional Travel will work.

Also add in Shapeshift and Size Powers and it's a different vehicle upon need.

Add in Flight, Swimming, Gliding movement multipowers to fit the type of vehicle.

Add in Healing/Tranform to fix any damage sustained last time the vehicle was summoned or used.

The problem with using summoned, is that it calls upon a character template more than a vehicle template IMO. Otherwise, I might as well add my base or computer to a summon and then...we are just getting silly.

The problem with the above is that, if I must buy all these powers for my vehicle anyway, I may as well take that one step further and take the limitations off. NOw I have a vehicle with Megascale teleport - range anywhere on Earth. After all, if it can teleport to me from the other side of the planet, why, logicaly, can it not take me back as well?

Summon, oth the other hand, could mean I use my Hellfire powers to create a motorcycle crafted entirely of Hellfire - it didn't come from the other side of the world, so there's no reason it should have the movement to get back there either.

[Lord Liaden]

To some extent this will depend on how the GM is willing to handle a "specific vehicle." Any type of Summoned creature or thing is supposed to be approved by the GM, at least as far as commonly-available creatures is concerned. So maybe you can Summon any type of car; but how many custom-built James-Bondian flying/submersible/rocketlaunching/etc. cars are out there?

When you have a vehicle with unique and well-known capabilities that surpass those of any other vehicle like it, it's an asset to you which IMO goes beyond just what you pay to be able to Summon something with X number of Active Points. If a player in my campaigns wanted to be able to Summon the equivalent of the Silver Surfer's board, or Orion's Astro-glider, I'd definitely expect him to pay the Specific Being Advantage, because he's getting something that no other Summoning character can have.

IMO, YMMV etc. ;)

[GaryB]

The problem with the above is that, if I must buy all these powers for my vehicle anyway, I may as well take that one step further and take the limitations off. NOw I have a vehicle with Megascale teleport - range anywhere on Earth. After all, if it can teleport to me from the other side of the planet, why, logicaly, can it not take me back as well?

Character concept over mechanics. If the intent was to call forth a vehicle, then thats what the power (vehicle) would do and that would be the limitations. But in the above case, may as well buy a megascaled teleport for yourself.


Summon, oth the other hand, could mean I use my Hellfire powers to create a motorcycle crafted entirely of Hellfire - it didn't come from the other side of the world, so there's no reason it should have the movement to get back there either.

Then again, you can buy Ground Movement (Running) with a Focus, Turn Modes, etc.

However, I digress. Was just thinking of Knight Rider and the intelligent car thing. Summon xCost Vehicle, Loyal, Specific Being, Must Arrive under own power, Must inhabit locale. Focus - Communicator (Radio Transmit/Xmit). I would say, the vehicle would have to have some sort of intelligence or automation in order for it to work in any campaign I ran.

[Sean Waters]

Hmm. OK. KITT. Right. Point is, I don't see it as an advantage to be able to summon the same car time and again when, for a substantially lower cost, I can have a new shiny one time and again. Now KITT may be the exception as it has a machine mind and memory, and you don't want to keep having the same conversations again and again:

"Er, so you summoned me: who are you?"

Anything without a mind though: where is the advantage of getting the one you chipped the paintwork on last week? :)

Also, vehicles are all very interestnig, but does anyone have thoughts on the 'summon variation' and 'summon specific people' questions? :stupid:

[austenandrews]

Personally I regard Summon as one of the most misused powers in the system and would probably not allow it in your first two cases. Dunno about question #3.

[gojira]

Yes, KITT. Doesn't Batman sometimes summon the batmobile with a radio thingy? And I think Wonder Woman can do the same with her jet. But this is a great way to limit the summon: the batmobile has to be able to drive there, plus the range would probably be somewhat limited (for the summon) and it'd be easy to block (GM: "No, you can't summon the batmobile. The Joker must be jamming your transmitter.")

And the jet might show up and hover, but so what? You still have to be able to climb up into it. That's almost just a SFX of having a super invisible jet there, it really doesn't buy you much other than convenience.

Anything involving mega-scale TP should be looked at carefully. Summon a specific person? Like the President of the USA, or John Cleese? If I were the GM, I'd be very skeptical. Details are needed.

[Dust Raven]

[QUOTE=Sean Waters]Riiiight. I was looking at summoning and came up with a couple of discussion points.[quote]

1. Summoning vehicles: I've never really understood why it's an Advantage at all to keep Summoning the same specific person. So I can summon Bob the Baal-rog. Each time I use Summon, I get Bob. Big deal Bob! Where's the Advantage? If I haven't also paid for a loyalty, he's likely to get pissed at me for Summoning him just once, but if I keep doing it? It's likely to make him more antagonistic towards me. If I would get a different Baal-rog each time, none of them will be pissed at me for having already Summoned them a dozen times in the past week. And if I do pay for loyalty, why am I still paying for Bob? I see to reason the Advantage should exist. I hope that answers how I think it'd apply for vehicles as well.

2. Variation in characters summoned. This part varies a bit (pun intended). If you wanted a specific type of character (like a chemist), you'd always get a chemist. Maybe sometimes you'd get a short, hairy, ugly chemist that speaks 4 languages and can fly a helicopter, and sometimes you'd get a tall, sexy chemist who's a bit absent minded and occasionally forgets her name. Either way you'd get a chemist, which is what you want, and each time the chemist you Summon will be able to do what a chemist does. Alternately you can buy Summon for short, hairy ugly people that speak 4 languages, and occasionally one would be a chemist, but sometimes a profesional golfer or a cab driver, but you'll always get what your Summon summons. If you wanted more than just chemists... say... scientists, then you'd have to get the Advantage so can summon any kind of scientist.

3. Summoning specific people. As I stated above, I think that this particular Advantage is wortheless. If you have an expanded class of creatures to Summon, I don't see why you can't have the same things keep coming back each time you need a whaterver. So you can summon scientists, and can choose from Clara the biologist, Larry the chemist, Ralph the physicist, Bennie the xenobiologist, Zoe the archaeoligist, etc etc... If you can summon any kind, and need something you've never Summoned before, like a meteoroligist because you see a really funny looking cloud, you'll be introduced to Harold for the first time, and get Harold back if you ever need a meteoroligist again.

My head feels funny now...

[Sean Waters]

Summon specific person Activation 12-, doesn't actually appear in person: sfx, telephone.... :) :) :)

[Dust Raven]

Summon specific person Activation 12-, doesn't actually appear in person: sfx, telephone.... :) :) :)

And to think I had that written up as Mind Link... :)

But at least we know what Summon with "Summoned Creature Doesn't Arrive" would do.

[Hugh Neilson]

3. Summoning specific people. As I stated above, I think that this particular Advantage is wortheless. If you have an expanded class of creatures to Summon, I don't see why you can't have the same things keep coming back each time you need a whaterver. So you can summon scientists, and can choose from Clara the biologist, Larry the chemist, Ralph the physicist, Bennie the xenobiologist, Zoe the archaeoligist, etc etc... If you can summon any kind, and need something you've never Summoned before, like a meteoroligist because you see a really funny looking cloud, you'll be introduced to Harold for the first time, and get Harold back if you ever need a meteoroligist again.

Actually, I think the "Summon Specific Person" advantage is a crock. I see it as a poor attempt at "game balance". If it would be unbalancing to Summon and control, say, the King or the President of the USA, an arbitrary +1 advantage doesn't make it any more balanced.

Meanwhile, if I want to summon Harvey the Cop (specifically) I pay a +1 advantage. You pay half as much to Summon Cop (generic). In our first game session, we each use our Summon. Moments later, VIPER agents shoot both our Summoned cops, putting them in traction. A week later, we each use our Summon again. You get a healthy, fit cop. I get a sack of loose flesh and broken bones moaning on the floor. Next Summon, I get a dead body and you get a cop.

MY power should cost more? :nonp:

[Dust Raven]

Actually, I think the "Summon Specific Person" advantage is a crock. I see it as a poor attempt at "game balance". If it would be unbalancing to Summon and control, say, the King or the President of the USA, an arbitrary +1 advantage doesn't make it any more balanced.
This is something I've never understood. Is this what that silly Advantage is suppose to be for? "Summoning" people from the real world, or a dimension the characters frequently adventure in, isn't Summon; it's Teleport.


Meanwhile, if I want to summon Harvey the Cop (specifically) I pay a +1 advantage. You pay half as much to Summon Cop (generic). In our first game session, we each use our Summon. Moments later, VIPER agents shoot both our Summoned cops, putting them in traction. A week later, we each use our Summon again. You get a healthy, fit cop. I get a sack of loose flesh and broken bones moaning on the floor. Next Summon, I get a dead body and you get a cop.

MY power should cost more? :nonp:

Absolutely... if the Summon worked like this, it should be a Limitation. The default I assume is that the summoned creature heals completely while away in whatever place it comes from. As a rule, I don't allow Summon to bring anyone/thing from the real world the characters play in, so whatever is summoned comes from "some place else" which can have whatever properties are necessary to explain what is summoned.

[zornwil]

As you guys state, you're right, it is a poor attempt at balance, it's built on a presumption of advantage as far as I can see. The idea seems to be that the only reason to Summon one specific being would be for some specific recurring advantage, an advantage greater than a more general type. I can't see another rationale.

If this is the rationale, the Summon construct should simply change, if needed, to support some sort of Advantage to represent specifically that, a "Highly Useful Individual", which is certainly what is implied.

Note in 5th (5ER is downstairs, not handy) that it indicates it should generally be a person no longer living or such, along these lines of it being an unusual advantage. It seems/feels it does need to be rewritten, though.

Of course the other problem is, why would one Summon a specific being as opposed to a Limited Teleport UBO or UAO, possibly with a Trigger or Mind Link just for that purpose? (PS - hit send too early) The reason would be to get someone they don't know/can't find otherwise, have no attachment to. So the Summon does represent this - but needs to be built a bit better, probably just explained better and costed appropriate to whether it's an ongoing "ace in the hole" or simply a convenient Follower.