CKC: New Blood among villainry

[Hermit]

Okay, so I finally got my grubby little hands on Conquerers, Killers, and Crooks (I know, sad really), and have really enjoyed it. Has anyone a favorite among the new villains?

Heck, maybe some of them I think are new aren't, and I just missed some 2nd or 1st Edition reference. Still... so far, I see lots of promise in :
Istvatha V'han (She's got the ambition of Darkseid with a genteel twist that I find intriguing)
The Crowns of Krim (Especially Bloodstone..not sure why.. just brrr)
Black Harlequinn (Hello Joker type story lines)
Gargauntua (Big, but not dumb)
Nebula (Cop gone too far ) :)

[GamePhil]

Several people have mentioned they don't like Nebula because of the Extra Dimensional Movement, Usable As Attack, but I just think of her as one big plot hook for a quick jaunt to a hellish dimension filled with desparate criminals.

I personally have a soft spot for Holocaust, but mainly because he was on the first Champions cover. I'm not sure he's new, though: my memories of all but the most well known villains in Champions is a bit muggy.

[Haerandir]

I rather like the Warlord & his War Machine, personally. The Warlord himself is obviously a villain, but he's fairly rational, and you can talk to him. Sometimes I get tired of megalomaniacal supervillains blowing up Detroit. Warlord's a nice change of pace. And the War Machine and Shadow Army give you a nice progression of opponents. I envision a layered scenario, where the PC's first encounter a group of Shadow Army soldiers and whup up on them, to get them feeling nice and confident. Then they run into a couple of members of the War Machine with Shadow Army backup and beat them with a little effort. THen they fight the entire War Machine, possibly with agent support. Then, in the final encounter, they have to take down the Warlord himself. Gives you a nice feeling of logical progression.

Plus, I'm a sucker for powered armor characters.

[Monolith]

I like most of the "new kids" in the book. There are some I will not use because of power issues (most of the Master Villains except for Warlord are best used as a plot device, IMO).

Out of the Indies I like Anubis (always like that "god" stuff), Black Harlequin (a great Jokeresque villain), Cybermind (an interesting behind the scenes villain), Holocaust (he is basically my game's Dr. Destroyer), Masquerade (what is a game world without a Mystique?), Photon (a tough female villain to give the guys some grief), Thorn (something about those crazy professors appeals to me), and Zorran (I just really like that whole Lemurian thing).

I also like Tachyon from Champions, Teleios and Stingray from Champions Universe and Freakshow and Hazard from Millennium City for new villains.

[winterhawk]

Wow...hard to say. Probably Gravitar (nice to see a female master villain) and Warlord and War Machine.

[CrosshairCollie]

I'm looking forward to using the Crowns of Krim, myself, just because all my players from 4th Edition will soil their spandex. ("Dark Seraph has a TEAM??!!") The only downside is that I always liked to partner up Black Paladin and Dark Seraph ... maybe I'll create a 'Knight' for each of the other Crowns.

I like the War Machine just for the way they're named. I'm a sucker for cheesy gimmicks like that. The fact that it's a military organization that's actually RUN like one helps ... the leader isn't a psychotic loon. Well, he IS, but he's not irrational about it.

It's probably going to take some effort for some PCs to get used to the reused-name-but-different-character stuff, like Vibron. I once teamed up the Classic Enemies 'solo losers' into a team that turned out to be memorable somehow, and Vibron was on it.

My last point of curiosity has to be wondering why Bulldozer doesn't actually have that old Vulnerability to being smacked around by women. That'll actually throw some people off, given that one of the biggest laughs we all got once was three female supers coordinating two 18d6 attacks and a 14d6 attack on him.

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
I like the War Machine just for the way they're named. I'm a sucker for cheesy gimmicks like that. The fact that it's a military organization that's actually RUN like one helps ... the leader isn't a psychotic loon. Well, he IS, but he's not irrational about it.


Well, I think the point is that he's psychotic, but he's not a loon. Frankly, I'm not even sure he's psychotic. He could just be very ambitious. That's why I find him refreshing. Instead of being so powerful that you have to make him a nutbar to explain why he doesn't just roll over everyone, he's powerful enough to be scary, without being overwhelming.

And you're right about the Crowns of Krim, too. Though I'd have to be worried about my players just packing it in and going home.... ;)

[Lord Liaden]

I'm considering reviving my 4E version of Raven working in some of the new villains from CKC. I had taken the aristocratic notion of Raven putting power in the hands of those "born to rule", and making that birthright be the inherent superiority of the superpowered. In other words, the leadership of Raven are all supervillains who intend to lord it over normal humans. For example, all the mutants of IMAGE from The Mutant File were subsumed into Raven.

It seems to me that Holocaust has exactly the right background and attitude to be a prominent member of that organization - perhaps the leader of their elite combat force. However, as ultimate leader of the organization, IMO only one villain has the power, genius, mindset and proper aristocratic lineage: Menton.

I must say, though, that I was disappointed by the changes to Firewing's origin. Being hopped up on power-enhancing drugs seems petty compared to a warrior trying to expunge his guilt by "walking through the fire", and instead being transformed into something far greater. That added a depth of sympathy and twisted nobility to Firewing that I find lacking in the current version.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I'm considering reviving my 4E version of Raven working in some of the new villains from CKC. I had taken the aristocratic notion of Raven putting power in the hands of those "born to rule", and making that birthright be the inherent superiority of the superpowered. In other words, the leadership of Raven are all supervillains who intend to lord it over normal humans. For example, all the mutants of IMAGE from The Mutant File were subsumed into Raven.


Very nice idea, if you're looking for something in that vein inspiration wise, the Titans of Tommorrow Site has the 'Royal Elite'. Some of the stories with Autocrat there certain capture the feel it sounds like you're looking for.

[Tom]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
I'm looking forward to using the Crowns of Krim, myself, just because all my players from 4th Edition will soil their spandex. ("Dark Seraph has a TEAM??!!") The only downside is that I always liked to partner up Black Paladin and Dark Seraph ... maybe I'll create a 'Knight' for each of the other Crowns.

<...snip...>

I recently ran Black Paladin (among others) against my group of supers. The long and short of things being he was the only one of the villains to be KO'd/captured (luck of the dice type thing). The heroes were in Brazil and in a bit of a hurry (and the team leader figured BP would eventually escape anyhow), so they took his armor and mace and dropped them in the Atlantic with a spell of concealment.

Bit of a predicament for the ol' GM thing. Then I remembered that 3rd plot seed for Force...

(Who says the Golden Crown has to offer itself to a PC...

Bwahahahahahaahahah....)

[Enforcer84]

I like the new blood for the most part. I love Black Paladin and the idea of him trying to create a dark order of knights to help with his dreams of conquest always appealed to me. Even if I got the idea from the drek that is Europan Enemeis.

I have also used Talisman as his new paramour.

[Dynamo]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
It's probably going to take some effort for some PCs to get used to the reused-name-but-different-character stuff, like Vibron. I once teamed up the Classic Enemies 'solo losers' into a team that turned out to be memorable somehow, and Vibron was on it.I miss Vibron's old secret identity. :D

I played a V&V version of him in a "create yourself as a super" mini-campaign, but nobody got the reference. :(

[Marchwarden]

Let's see...

Tesseract is a blast. Dimensional powers are great fun, and as an unwilling world conqueror she gives the PCs a few moral issues to work with.

I've always liked Firewing. Yes, the new version is less sympathetic; instead of a tortured figure who would almost be a hero (at least in his native culture), we have Desslok of Gamilon - definitely an enemy, albeit one with honorable qualities and a bit of style. His power-ups also make him very versatile, which makes him a better match for a flexible team.

Teleios (the Malachite rewrite) is, I think, better executed in terms of points and powers. He's Malachite with a mechanical retooling.

Istvatha V'Han...poses personal angst for me. She conquers the multiverse because she believes she's best qualified to run it...and there is some evidence to support her view. Her subjects' lives are generally improved by incorporation into her empire, and she does not seek to impose any ideology, religion or undue financial burden on them. So really, the only right she deprives them of is the right to choose their own leaders, all of whom are manifestly less qualified than Istvatha. I realise that it's more the principle of the thing...but sometimes I read the news and have to wonder about "V'Han in 2004: All your base are belong to V'Han". Besides, Istvatha V'Han: Empress of a Billion Dimensions is just an amazingly cool name.

I'm actually happier with the new Eurostar lineup. I realize that some Terror, Inc. fans are displeased, but I always thought of Muerte as a superfluous Destroyer Lite.

The Crowns of Krim are great fun, although my experience with them has mainly been as a player in "Champions 2018", an era in which Bloodstone has souled out for a power-up, and Talisman and Black Paladin have seized the Iron and Shadow crowns, respectively, in a coup. Never thought I'd yearn for the days of fighting the old Dark Seraph..."Talisman, Bride of Krim" is a spandex-soiling cancept made real.

Of final mention, Captain Chronos, in the hands of the right GM, becomes sort of a cross between Foxbat and Q. Never a dull moment.

[Knightraven]

I love seeing Foxbat back.
Fenris has become a favorite in play. The players hate him.
BTW, I am really happy with the large number of 350 point characters. Until the UNTIL SUPERPOWERS DATABASE comes out, its nice to have 350 point characters for the players to peruse and/or use as a template.
And I love Brainchild. He's just too kewl. Imagine, a villain that wants to make money by selling his gadgets rather than fighting the heroes. And I love the Adam Strange style costume.

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by Knightraven
I love seeing Foxbat back.
Fenris has become a favorite in play. The players hate him.
BTW, I am really happy with the large number of 350 point characters. Until the UNTIL SUPERPOWERS DATABASE comes out, its nice to have 350 point characters for the players to peruse and/or use as a template.


In a friend's campaign, Lazer was converted into a good guy. They dropped the pistol (and maybe one of the less appropriate skills) and turned the rifle into OIF (it's a Laser Gauntlet now). This makes him less readily neutralized. Then, they simply changed his Psych Lims and Hunteds to make him a former-merc-with-a-conscience type.

Hummingbird makes a perfectly suitable (if slightly annoying) teen heroine just as is.

Also, some of the larger villains can be pared down. I loved Tesseract, so I used her as both a structural model and plot hook for Pentaflex. The story is that after the malignant sixth-dimensional entities merged with Ms. Palamaris, a benevolent group of fifth-dimensional entities responded by also merging with a human host. He's therefore less powerful but also less nuts. She's a Hunted of his, but their encounters tend to turn into these bizarre fight/dialogues between two inimical extradimensional forces, each partially possessing two humans who have no need to harm each other.

[Steve Long]

I once played a Lazer-like character as a PC myself, Marchwarden. Lots of fun.


The only downside is that I always liked to partner up Black Paladin and Dark Seraph ... maybe I'll create a 'Knight' for each of the other Crowns.

A very cool idea -- and fairly similar to something upcoming. We'll soon release Shades Of Black, a large Hero Plus scenario for Champions focusing on Black Paladin. Since he needs help to take on the heroes, the scenario supplies him with several superpowered liegemen to fight at his side. They're not knights in any sense of the term, but they do form a "team" for him... and you could easily add some more, or replace 'em with your own creations.

[CrosshairCollie]

...

STEVE THOUGHT MY IDEA WAS COOL!!!!!

*faint*:D

Thank you. That made my day in a big way.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Steve Long
A very cool idea -- and fairly similar to something upcoming. We'll soon release Shades Of Black, a large Hero Plus scenario for Champions focusing on Black Paladin. Since he needs help to take on the heroes, the scenario supplies him with several superpowered liegemen to fight at his side. They're not knights in any sense of the term, but they do form a "team" for him... and you could easily add some more, or replace 'em with your own creations.

Please don't. BP is a hunted for my current character. The last thing I need is for BP to be provided with a lot of backup and support. ;)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Bartman
Please don't. BP is a hunted for my current character. The last thing I need is for BP to be provided with a lot of backup and support. ;)
But they are really cool backup and support! I really liked the way Allen weaved it all together. "Shades" is an excellent adventure. I really feel sorry for your character. :)

[TheEmerged]

Can't just list the newbies, so I'll cover the rewrites too

/* cracks knuckles

FIREWING: I agree with the earlier statement in favor of his previous origin -- and the sentiment that he's now Desslock of Gamilon, with superpowers. That's not entirely a bad thing -- speaking for myself I'd been subconsciously projecting Desslock into him as a GM for years before a player pointed it out to me.

BLACK HARLEQUIN: Dangerously close to blowing my Enraged check here but... EMERGED SMASH PUNY MERRY ANDREW WANNABE!

BLACK DIAMOND: Maybe it's just me, but has this character ever been portrayed as a black person before?

WAR MACHINE: Oh the plans I have for this group...

ULTIMATES: I like the expansion of the group, especially the fact that the expansion gave them a separate identity by expanding on an already-existing theme (nerds out for revenge) instead of the "buff them up" approach in Enemies Assemble.

EUROSTAR: I can't say I'm disappointed to see Terror Inc. go, especially given how much more appropriate Scorpia and Fueryadayada are for Eurostar. I also like the change to Fiacho; I never cared for the previous "Anorexic Wolverine" look. I do miss Pantera & Bora, albeit primarily for Y-chromosone related reasons :rolleyes:

PSI: Pet Peeve Alert! Breaking up the membership of this group (apparently they're going to be listed in several different expansions) was a misfire.

BLOWTORCH: Worth the listing just for the Ironclad flavor text, in my opinion.

BRAINCHILD: I like him! I could quibble with certain aspects of the writeup but I love the concept -- so much, in fact, that I've placed a slightly reworked version of him on The Protectors in place of Brainchild (there is a strong anti-psi backlash in my campaign world).

BLOCKBUSTER... er, BULLDOZER: I'm glad he made the transition, but I disagree with him weighing in below 350. I'm working on a rewrite for the next adventure, so that's all I'm saying about that :D

CAPTAIN CHRONOS: Love the concept, hate the writeup. NND Entangle? I'd penalize any player that brought something like that to me 5% of their starting points :mad:

CATERAN: There can be only one! :rolleyes:

FENRIS: Has already made a limited appearance in my campaign -- I cheated and used his writeup for a different character. Actually worked better than expected; he was the second-to-last in that encounter to fall.

LEECH: Love the new mechanic; a good example of how the official "Linked Debate" answer of 5th Edition makes the Variable Slot option on multipowers much more viable.

MENAGERIE: Great example of how the new multiform rules can be used to great effect without being abusive.

THE MONSTER: "Boo! Come on lady, I only have a 30 PRE, work with me here..."

NEBULA: I have this rule about NPC's with attacks I wouldn't allow PC's to have. It involves dead fish and blows to the head :rolleyes:

STORMFRONT & GARGANTUA (also, Devatator from Champions): What is it with the DOJ-verse and the "He's also a rogue!" characters? Not that I'm complaining, I like versatility -- but this one is quickly becoming a HERO cliche...

Overall, a lot to like

editted because I'm an idiot

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
BLACK DIAMOND: Maybe it's just me, but has this character ever been portrayed as a black person before?
She has always been black.


BLOCKBUSTER: I'm glad he made the transition, but I disagree with him weighing in below 350. I'm working on a rewrite for the next adventure, so that's all I'm saying about that :D
Is this your name for Bulldozer?

[Hermit]

Originally posted by TheEmerged


BLACK HARLEQUIN: Dangerously close to blowing my Enraged check here but... EMERGED SMASH PUNY MERRY ANDREW WANNABE!


Ooo.. frankly, given the lethal and sociopathic nature of Black Harlequin, my thought was he's definitely a tip of the hat to the Joker. I definitely intend to play him as such.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Hermit
Ooo.. frankly, given the lethal and sociopathic nature of Black Harlequin, my thought was he's definitely a tip of the hat to the Joker. I definitely intend to play him as such.
As do I. CLOWN was built for humor. Black Harliquin was built for terror, IMO.

[don]

I've used several of the new villains, and they've been quite useful. I really like the additions, and think CKC is one of the better books Hero has put out.

I've used Nebula, and found her neat. I have no problem with NPCs having powers the PCs aren't allowed to have. One of my players wanted a half-alien, half-indian (american indian). His father saw a vision that this son would have a special mystic destiny, and the alien also saw this, and the two had the character, Sky Hunter. I used Nebula, because I loved the idea of this hardcase supercop being a mommy (not a great one, that's for sure), and the results have been very cool so far.

I made Black Harlequin (without the Black in his first appearance) the son of the Idiot King, who launched his last scheme against his arch nemesis, American Eagle in a recent arc I just ran. Now, the King is dead, and his "jester" will be taking over for him, and the players are very nervous about that.

And yes, my players are living in fear of the idea that Dark Seraph has a team...I'm using a variant of it in due time, without all the characters used in the CKC book, but that's not for them not being cool. They are.

Don

[Hermit]

Don, I love the connection between Idiot King and Black Harlequinn idea.

Nebula doesn't bother me either, for one thing, one of my PCs HAS Dimensional Travel usable against others (And she's already seen in play consequences of using it casually) so what's good for the gander is good for the goose, so to speak. Also, the character write up has Nebula using it only after a full phase explaining the charges passes, so there is time to act. After that, it becomes pure plot. :)

[Mastermind]

New to HERO because of the Cool new book so I don't have the historical grasp that the rest of you have, but from what I've seen so far...

I am so liking the Warlord and the Warmachine....
Can't wait to use them.

Also, Cateran works for some of my plot hooks, esp after one of my players exclaimed, "Aha! There's my character's new girlfriend!"

Dark Seraph and the Crowns of Krim....mwhahahahaha!

Tukofanes...even more evil laughter!

OK>>>I've only browsed through the rest of the book, reading the Master Villian section.

[Darren Watts]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

PSI: Pet Peeve Alert! Breaking up the membership of this group (apparently they're going to be listed in several different expansions) was a misfire.



Well, just the two. The core members were listed in CKC, but since their HQ is in Millennium City, some additional members are listed there, as well as expanded plot devices and a handful of rivals and supporting characters. dw

[TheEmerged]

Thanks Darren. Now if I can ever get my hands on MC... :-)

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,


Originally Posted by TheEmerged:
Can't just list the newbies, so I'll cover the rewrites too

I actually have more 3rd Edition stuff than 4th, so while I can recognize most of the classics, I'm still unsure whether many of the characters new to me are new to 5th Edition as well. :)


Originally Posted by TheEmerged:
ULTIMATES: I like the expansion of the group, especially the fact that the expansion gave them a separate identity by expanding on an already-existing theme (nerds out for revenge) instead of the "buff them up" approach in Enemies Assemble.

Yes, they're a worthy inclusion, and the theme approach is interesting. But I still miss Plasmoid...


Originally Posted by TheEmerged:
CATERAN: There can be only one!

Presumably the expected reaction. My first thought was, "Hmm, Hottie McLeod of the Clan McLeod. Duncan's heritage, Amanda's attitude towards other people's property, and Slan Quince's build." And that's definitely the highest hemline I've ever seen on a kilt. :D


Originally Posted by TheEmerged:
THE MONSTER: "Boo! Come on lady, I only have a 30 PRE, work with me here..."

"Only"? Man, 350-point PCs spoiling people already, eh? ;)


Originally Posted by Hermit:
Destroyer speaks,"As you can see, my genetic make up is...difficult to duplicate exactly. Still, one of my duplicates matches my intellect even if physically he has come up a bt ..short."
The tiny helmeted figure hops up onto the chair and glares malevolently in his three foot five inch armor.
The Doctor continues, "I call him... Mini-D."

:eek:! He'll kill me first chance he gets!

As far as my own favorites go, Istvatha V'han is pretty high among the ones I'm fairly sure are new. The "Empress of a Billion Dimensions" thing is indeed cool, and she strikes me as sort of a blend of the Shi'ar Empress Lilandra and Lady from Glen Cook's "Black Company" series of books. And ya gotta love someone with the cojones to take Tyrannon for a Hunted. :D (*shudders to think he counts as "More Powerful" than even her*)

Also on my list are Captain Chronos and Tesseract (always loved the space-time manipulation powers), Nebula (reminds me of Justice, my favorite "New Universe" character before Marvel ruined the place), and Zorran the Artificer (I'm a sucker for the whole "secret history" and "secret races" conspiracy-theory schtick, and he looks about as close to a proper magus as we're going to get before Ultimate Mystic comes out).

The classic character writeups are welcome too - Dr. D (Daddy!) is suitably impressive, and it's nice to have a write-up (and name!) at last for Holocaust, who's on the cover of more than one of my 3rd Edition books. And it's also nice to see Firewing, Foxbat, Grond, the Monster, and the rest of the gang all brought up to date and ready to unleash their evil in the 21st Century. :)

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by Scott Destroyer
And ya gotta love someone with the cojones to take Tyrannon for a Hunted. :D (*shudders to think he counts as "More Powerful" than even her*)


Well, Tyrannon is pretty much the definition of 'More Powerful'. That's who he is, that's what he does. Essentially, think of a character with resources equivalent to Istvatha V'han, but instead of being a relatively wussy 716 points, he's built on 8000+. At least, that's what he used to be. No telling what the modern version will look like.

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
BLOCKBUSTER... er, BULLDOZER: I'm glad he made the transition, but I disagree with him weighing in below 350. I'm working on a rewrite for the next adventure, so that's all I'm saying about that :D


:eek:

Oh, I couldn't disagree with you more. The whole point of Bulldozer is that he's less powerful than a starting PC, and just doesn't get it. That's why the old CE version of him was built on less than 250 points, and that's why the current version is built on 290 points. Making him 350 points would be a grave injustice, unless you're planning on playing High-powered heroes at the 450+ level. ;)

[CrosshairCollie]

Perhaps more specifically, the point of Bulldozer is that he's less powerful than a starting PC, but thinks he can take 'em all at once. :)

I'm considering re-doing an old idea, where a bunch of the solo 'losers' teamed up, perhaps with a mysterious and highly persuasive benefactor backing them, after introducing them to the PCs and letting them get thumped. Imagine Bulldozer with those other 60 points spent on things like Martial Arts (Wrestling) and the like? The only thing worse than someone who brags constantly and can't back it up is when that person comes along and slaps you silly.

Back in 4th Ed, a friend of mine ran a game where Bulldozer became, like, mega-uber-cosmic-powered ... but his personality didn't change a bit. That was scary.:eek:

[TheEmerged]

We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess :D

[Hermit]

The important thing about Bulldozer, IMHO, is that a female character (preferably played by a female player, because it's just more enjoyable for her) gets to kick his chauvinistic butt around the hexes :)

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by Hermit
The important thing about Bulldozer, IMHO, is that a female character (preferably played by a female player, because it's just more enjoyable for her) gets to kick his chauvinistic butt around the hexes :)

It's so sad that they removed the vulnerability from him in this edition. It's still satisfying to see a woman put him in his place, but it's not as, well, impressive in its sheer numerical glory.

[Hermit]

Well, I think I'm going to keep that Vulnerablity for my version of him, at least at the 1 and 1/2 level. It just feels...karmic that way ;)