Autofire Rules

[atlascott]

I was running a Modern HERO game (actually, horror/zombie, but set in Modern World) and for the first time, had a player actually use an autofire weapon. I had to read the rules. The player was unhappy with the rules because it was an AF/5 weapon, and he wanted to plug 2 guys 2 hexes apart. The negatives to CV for that (each target is a -, and each hex passed thru wastes a round and if I recall correctely, is another -) were such that from them on, he just took aimed, single round shots, to better effect. Autofire might be underpowered as compared to what it can do in real life.

How well do you guys think the Autofire rules work for automatic weapons? Over or under powered, or about right? Are there any rules mods/different approaches to this I should know about?

[JohnTaber]

Hi AtlaScott,

I have run a lot of the Heroic style play with agents and such in the past. I think the CURRENT autofire rules are "a bit underpowered" but I use the OCV bonuses from the older edition to help. In the older rules firing autofire (5 shots) added +2 OCV and firing autofire (10 shots) added +4 OCV. In my mind this better mimics the effect of shooting a lot of rounds at a target. It should be easier to hit if 10 rounds are flying at someone IMHO.

Saying all that I do not touch the effect on spray fire covering more than one hex with rounds. I think the rules in those areas are "ok". The effect is normally used to scatter guys. Also you can use the supression effect to deliver shots over several phases. Again...if you want to adjust the rules go ahead! Toolkit remember! ;)

You can get most of the older gun combat rules in Danger International and later on in one of the Dark Champions supplements...drat...I don't have my books handy...anyway...someone can pipe in. :) If you want to see some of the slightly adjusted gun combat rules that I use go to my site at the URL below. Note that several of the things I did as house rules are now standard. Rapid Fire was one of my house rules in May of 92. ;)

[simplygnome]

Are there any rules mods/different approaches to this I should know about?

Yes, please check page 33 in 5th Edition or page 50 in 5th Revised for rules on autofire Combat Skills. You'll want to look at ACCURATE SPRAYFIRE in particular.

These help a character in combat a LOT by reducing his penalties to fight with autofire. They represent special training, or just a little bit of experience with a gun that probably has a large recoil....

Instead of his large minuses to OCV, he'll just be taking a flat -1 penalty. Much better, dont you think...All thanks to training, and it only cost 5 CPs!

Lets take a look at Little Disgruntled Billy who goes into his grandfathers closet and gets the nearest AK-47 and shoots up his school because the 10th graders gave him a swirly after class. You don't expect him to have much of an aim. However, GI Jane, on the other hand, who has been trained in using these kinds of weapons, knows how and when to shoot and how to deal with the guns recoils, so she hits better than LDB ever could.

I hope this helps a bit...... :)

[Sean Waters]

Well I haven't voted yet because, whilst I don't really think that the autofire rules accurately rerflect reality, I think the game balance is about right.

As simplygnome pointed out, if your player is unhappy with autofire, probably didn't spend enough points on being good with it. Muggins picks up a submachine gun, and won't hit anything, a trained professional with the relevant skills will be deadly!

[simplygnome]

Well I haven't voted yet because, whilst I don't really think that the autofire rules accurately rerflect reality, I think the game balance is about right.

I didn't vote either, because I share Seans sentiments. It does NOT reflect reality, per se, but they DO balance and they arent under/over powered...unless you combine them with something like Double Knockback and an AFx5 attack....ooowwww. (My player the other night shot a ninja 60 feet into the air with one of those! =P).

All in all, I enjoy the autofire rules as is....

[Dust Raven]

I also agree with Sean and simplygnome, but I voted for Underbalanced because in the context of this thread it specificaly referres to modling automatic weapons. Though Autofire is a balanced game mechanic, it doesn't reflect the purpose of automatic weapons, which is to throw out more ammo and increase the chances of some of those rounds hitting their target.

One option I've used for automatic weapons is the Rapid Fire combat maneuver. I'd give an automatic weapon built in CSLs for Rapid Fire and/or OCV to simulate the ability to strike more effectively. Alternatly, I've used CSL's that require Charges used by the weapon, so you'd still roll the damage for a single round, but with several being fired it improves your chances of hitting.

Another thing I've done is create an Accurate Autofire Skill which basically is a Penalty Skill Level of sorts that works against the penalty for the second and third shot hitting the target. Combined with a few CSLs and you've got a fairly accurate automatic weapon.

[RDU Neil]

I also agree with Sean and simplygnome, but I voted for Underbalanced because in the context of this thread it specificaly referres to modling automatic weapons. Though Autofire is a balanced game mechanic, it doesn't reflect the purpose of automatic weapons, which is to throw out more ammo and increase the chances of some of those rounds hitting their target.


Bingo! Autofire is quite balanced as an ability to mimic supers throwing multiple energy blasts or some such...

... it is a bit underpowered and not very "realistic" in simulating actual automatic gunfire. It isn't horrible... but it isn't great. The autofire skills help... and anyone who has ever shot a gun will tell you that a little skill with doing "3 round burst target one... track left... three round burst target 2" is MUCH more effective than just spraying the room. "Spray and Pray" actually doesn't help increase your chance to hit very much. Targeted autofire on a single target... now THAT should be friggin' scary. I've messed around with House Rules that allow +1 OCV for every 3 rounds fired... but you can only hit once for every 3 rounds as well. The better reflects the "increased chance to hit with more lead in the air".

YMMV

[atlascott]

"One option I've used for automatic weapons is the Rapid Fire combat maneuver. I'd give an automatic weapon built in CSLs for Rapid Fire and/or OCV to simulate the ability to strike more effectively."

The cool ideas on this board never cease to amaze me...

[JohnTaber]

The cool ideas on this board never cease to amaze me...

Hero players rock! :thumbup:

[TheEmerged]

I find them balanced within the system, but perhaps not mimicing the real world too well. That "balanced" opinion takes into account the Autofire skills, which thanks to one of the PC's in the campaign I'm running I have some familiarity with ;)

[Gary]

Autofire can be far too effective if you allow it for some non-standard attacks such as NND. The +1 additional advantage just isn't enough to keep it from being horribly unbalancing.

[Dust Raven]

Autofire can be far too effective if you allow it for some non-standard attacks such as NND. The +1 additional advantage just isn't enough to keep it from being horribly unbalancing.

I've never found it to be too unbalancing with NND... it's the Area Effect Autofires you've got to watch for!

P.S.: Welcome back, Gary! It's been a long time since I've seen you on the boards.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I'm with the rest of you who said that AF is good for champs powers but a bit wonky for modeling autofire guns. When the rules originally changed to the first version of the current rules, we played around with "spraying" on a target, giving the option of adding +1 OCV per shot exchanged from the total number of rounds that "can" hit. So with AF5, you could concentrate fire on a single target as per the rules, or " "spray" for up to a +4 ocv, at wich point you can only hit the taget once. Systemically its similar to spreading an EB. We also played with varying the advantage for AF to adjust the hit rate... -1/4 less advantage for each added interval (Hits every 3, every 4, etc.) extra +1/2 advantage to hit 1 for 1. Works pretty well for increasing the flexibility in modern and hi tech weapon write ups, tho I'd be very leery of using them in a Supers game without a lot more messing about.

[Lord Liaden]

Autofire Skills would definitely help your player's character. Remember that these Skills "stack" with each other, being usable simultaneously. In the example you cite, Skipover Sprayfire would have let him shoot at the two targets without having to waste bullets through the intervening hexes, and Accurate Sprayfire would have greatly reduced the targetting penalty.

Another relatively cheap tactic is to buy Penalty Skill Levels to offset the penalties to attacking multiple targets with Autofire weapons. You could build 3-pointers into the gun itself (taking the Focus Limitation) if you want the weapon to be particularly accurate in Autofire mode.

I do have to wonder, though, whether it's truly necessary to use such Skills and Skill Levels to make Autofire effective; that would argue that Autofire is in fact underpowered. FWIW I and my group have been making more frequent use of the 5E option of a +1/4 Advantage for a two- or three-shot Autofire - it gives good value for the points IMHO.

[Gary]

I've never found it to be too unbalancing with NND... it's the Area Effect Autofires you've got to watch for!

P.S.: Welcome back, Gary! It's been a long time since I've seen you on the boards.


Thanks! I found myself spending too much time on these boards, so I decided to take some time off.

As far as the topic is concerned, consider this slot in a typical 60 pt multipower:

Magic Missile
3d6 EB Autofire 5 (+1.5) NND (+1) Area Effect Accurate (+1/2)

60 active points, and you can stick 2 clips of 12 charges or 4 clips of 8 charges on it and fire bursts of 4 shots.

Any halfway decent OCV 9 character is going to hit at least 3 times and probably all 4 vs any target. That's 9d6 or 12d6 of NND goodness if you don't have the proper defense.

Even if you don't go the Autofire Nnd Area Effect route, the character could simply replace Area Effect Accurate with 1/2 End or 64 Charges (or 4 clips of 32 Charges or 16 clips of 16 Charges). Now you need only 2 hits to break even with a straight NND and 3 to be well ahead. The beauty in the second construct is when the character starts spreading that NND. Each dice spread adds +3 or +4 which pretty much guarantees 2 additional hits, and allows you hit even high DCV targets with effective damage. Spreading regular EBs for +3 or +4 will quickly weaken that EB to the point of uselessness.

Of course this isn't as disgusting as Rapid Firing a NND, but no reasonable GM would allow that right? ;)

[Foxiekins]

If you want the spray of Autofire to enhance chances to hit, then rewrite the weapons to include Multiple 5 point Skill Levels with Ranged Combat, through the same OAF: gun (-1), and linked to the Autofire Attack (-1/2)... You get to use a Skill Level for each additional shot you fire...

Three Round Burst gets you a +2... Against someone with a DCV that matches your OCV, this means that you hit on 13 or less, hit with two rounds on 11 or less, and hit with all three on 9 or less...

4 levels for a x5 weapon would cost an extra 8 points... If it's heroic scale, and the weapon is equipment, he isn't spending points for it anyway... It'll cost more money, though... Plugging 2 guys 2 hexes apart (which I assume means 1 empty hex between them) would take 3 shots, which means he would have a +2 with both attacks... Combining Accurate Sprayfire and Concentrated Sprayfire with this would let him pump 2 rounds at one guy, lose 1 into the hex between them, and pump 2 rounds at the second guy... The total penalty against each guy would be -2... Using a 5 round burst would let you use all 4 Skill Levels, for a total +2 against each guy... Skipover Sprayfire would let you put that middle round into either guy instead of it being wasted...

[Dust Raven]

Thanks! I found myself spending too much time on these boards, so I decided to take some time off.

As far as the topic is concerned, consider this slot in a typical 60 pt multipower:

Magic Missile
3d6 EB Autofire 5 (+1.5) NND (+1) Area Effect Accurate (+1/2)

60 active points, and you can stick 2 clips of 12 charges or 4 clips of 8 charges on it and fire bursts of 4 shots.

Any halfway decent OCV 9 character is going to hit at least 3 times and probably all 4 vs any target. That's 9d6 or 12d6 of NND goodness if you don't have the proper defense.
A perfect example of how the rules can be abused... Again, welcome back!


Even if you don't go the Autofire Nnd Area Effect route, the character could simply replace Area Effect Accurate with 1/2 End or 64 Charges (or 4 clips of 32 Charges or 16 clips of 16 Charges). Now you need only 2 hits to break even with a straight NND and 3 to be well ahead. The beauty in the second construct is when the character starts spreading that NND. Each dice spread adds +3 or +4 which pretty much guarantees 2 additional hits, and allows you hit even high DCV targets with effective damage. Spreading regular EBs for +3 or +4 will quickly weaken that EB to the point of uselessness.

Of course this isn't as disgusting as Rapid Firing a NND, but no reasonable GM would allow that right? ;)

I'm not sure you've got the rules for spreading right. From how I understand it, things like Active Points or how much a single die costs are irrelavent. One die/DC will either spread for 1 OCV or 1 hex of area, no matter how many advantages are on it.

[Gary]

I'm not sure you've got the rules for spreading right. From how I understand it, things like Active Points or how much a single die costs are irrelavent. One die/DC will either spread for 1 OCV or 1 hex of area, no matter how many advantages are on it.


The rules are pretty clear. 1 DC = +1 OCV, and they define DC to take into account advantages.

[Dust Raven]

The rules are pretty clear. 1 DC = +1 OCV, and they define DC to take into account advantages.

Quote me page numbers (preferably in 5E, I don't have 5ER yet). It's not that I don't believe you, but this doesn't mesh with what I've read.

[zornwil]

I had to say overpowered but only because that's where I think they are more likely to be a problem. With sensible use, like almost everything in the system, they're probably fine, though I fully admit to just not being a fan of them in a mechanics sense.

[JamesG]

I've messed around with House Rules that allow +1 OCV for every 3 rounds fired... but you can only hit once for every 3 rounds as well. The better reflects the "increased chance to hit with more lead in the air".

YMMV

This is very close to something I've considered. I was thinking of allowing two rounds to be converted to +1 OCV, but those rounds can't "hit". It is up to the shooter how many rounds (if any) to convert to an OCV bonus every time they use the autofire power.

So a 3 shot autofire can either hit up to 3 times with no OCV bonus (as the rules allow now) or have up to one round hit with a +1 OCV.

A 5 shot autofire has these choices:
- up to 5 hits, no OCV bonus (what the rules allow now)
- up to 3 hits, with a +1 OCV (2 of the 5 autofire shots are converted to OCV, but they can't hit)
- up to 1 hit, with a +2 OCV (4 of the 5 autofire shots are converted to OCV, but they can't hit)

And so on. As the number of rounds increases, the number of possible combinations of OCV bonus and rounds that can hit increases as well. This adds more tactical choices for the players, and makes 10 shot autofire much more worthwhile.

[RDU Neil]

This is very close to something I've considered. I was thinking of allowing two rounds to be converted to +1 OCV, but those rounds can't "hit". It is up to the shooter how many rounds (if any) to convert to an OCV bonus every time they use the autofire power.

So a 3 shot autofire can either hit up to 3 times with no OCV bonus (as the rules allow now) or have up to one round hit with a +1 OCV.

A 5 shot autofire has these choices:
- up to 5 hits, no OCV bonus (what the rules allow now)
- up to 3 hits, with a +1 OCV (2 of the 5 autofire shots are converted to OCV, but they can't hit)
- up to 1 hit, with a +2 OCV (4 of the 5 autofire shots are converted to OCV, but they can't hit)

And so on. As the number of rounds increases, the number of possible combinations of OCV bonus and rounds that can hit increases as well. This adds more tactical choices for the players, and makes 10 shot autofire much more worthwhile.

I like it conceptually... my only concern would be that it slowed down combat as a player tried to figure out the "maximum efficiency burst" or whatever. My way breaks as either "more rounds for increased chance to hit... or more rounds for increased number of hits... pick one"... Hopefully that is simple enough to keep the combat moving.