How many points would Dr. Strange be?

[Killer Shrike]

In your worthy opinions, if one were to stat Dr. Strange in the HERO System, what ballpark of points would one start at?

By all means, cite examples and proudly display your geekness! Extra points for particularly erudite bits of arcane comics lore! ;)

[Edsel]

I put him in the 500-600 point range. If I were to try and build him he'd definately be a VPP powered character and you can do some pretty spectacular things with a really powerful VPP.

[WilyQuixote]

Well I posted one or two brief examples elsewhere on Dr. Strange but Im of the opinion that he should ring in around 1,000pts. Of course this means Menton could give him pause but with a sufficient VPP as befitting the Sorcerer Supreme of this dimension the good Doctor should have plenty of spells to defend against and subdue (possibly even capture) the notorious villain. As for Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes... well anyone should fear facing either of those two. Heck though they might not admit it I bet those two would think twice about going against the other in a fight anyways. Mind you this is if you were to bring Dr. Strange over into the CU but you just asked what we thought his points should be.

I think 1,000pts is fair. Dr. Strange had some enemies who were more powerful then him mystically speaking of course but he was called on to perform favors for cosmic entities like Galactus from time to time. He also travelled around with the Silver Surfer occassionally too. His area of responsibility was the entire dimension after all and not just the part of the dimension where Earth was located. I have a hard time envisioning a 500 or 600 pt character doing this effectively considering how much he has to protect and who/what he would have to protect against. To my knowledge he almost never asked for help doing these things either, not counting THE DEFENDERS.

[Haerandir]

Well, looking at my old copy of Mystic Masters, I notice that Vincent Dimitrios is built on 802 points. But he's still an apprentice in that writeup. The Revered Elder is 1299 points. The Undying Tulku and Master Jomo are built on similar point totals. Jarth is 971 points.

Given that those are all 4th edition writeups, they should still provide a decent guide for how to write up a 'Sorceror Supreme'-type character, as they have all held or been groomed for that role. So, somewhere in the 1000-1300 point range would definitely be reasonable. And yes, that would fit pretty well with the point values for Destroyer and Takofanes. Neither of those guys should be pushovers, even for the Sorceror Supreme. He should not want to take either of them on without backup. It is unlikely that he would ever feel the need to deal with Doctor Destroyer in any case, but Takofanes would be a significant rival.

[Killer Shrike]

Lots of voters, but no discourse. No Dr. Strange fans around? Ill even settle for a Dr. Strange debunker!

[2gunkid]

Doc Strange's been up and down the wrungs of power over the years. There's a pretty well established precident in the Marvel Universe that magic powers are divided into three categories: Personal, Universal, and The Power That Be. Personal powers tend to be telepathy, that nifty astral projection bit he does, that sort of thing. Universal is the quick "spells" he can whip-out with a strange glowing gesture but no real incantation to speak of. Last is the infameous. "By the Vinshanti I bind you and cast you out from this realm!"

There was a whole story line where all the beings that Doc had been calling on demanded restitution all at once. As a result, Doc had to rely on the Personal and Universal magics, which are significantly less powerful than the Powers That Be stuff. At another point, he was down to just the Personal Stuff...it was around that time that he put together the "Secret Defenders" - Nomad, Ghost Rider...I forget who else...but all Doc could do was the astral-projection and occult knowledge.

There were also points where the Eye of Agomotto wouldn't open, and his cloak got shredded. There were times when he was alone, without even Wong, and there were times he had Clea, Wong, and Rintrah.

So, I guess my answer would be: It depends. How many points are allowed in the game you want him in? You can really craft him to suit. I could make a pretty nifty low-end Doc with 200 +150, but I'd be closer to 1000 or so at his peak.

James.
:)

[JmOz]

I went with the fan favorite of a 1000 points, my mind breaks it down as follows:

250 in basic character (Skills and Characteristics)
250 in Magic Items (Cloak and Eye), and Personal Magics (Sense Magic, small MP with Astral Form and other Minor spells)
500in his VPP
100 in perks (Followers/Base)

For a total of about 1100 points

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by 2gunkid
Doc Strange's been up and down the wrungs of power over the years. There's a pretty well established precident in the Marvel Universe that magic powers are divided into three categories: Personal, Universal, and The Power That Be. Personal powers tend to be telepathy, that nifty astral projection bit he does, that sort of thing. Universal is the quick "spells" he can whip-out with a strange glowing gesture but no real incantation to speak of. Last is the infameous. "By the Vinshanti I bind you and cast you out from this realm!"

Hmm....so maybe the good Doctor has an EC (Personal Magics) a Multipower (Universal) and a VPP (Powers that Be)? Or maybe the EC is Universal and the MPP is Personal....




There was a whole story line where all the beings that Doc had been calling on demanded restitution all at once. As a result, Doc had to rely on the Personal and Universal magics, which are significantly less powerful than the Powers That Be stuff. At another point, he was down to just the Personal Stuff...it was around that time that he put together the "Secret Defenders" - Nomad, Ghost Rider...I forget who else...but all Doc could do was the astral-projection and occult knowledge.
Wow; he must have been in dire straits to enlist the aid of Nomad! Why Nomad anyway? Wasnt he the guy whos 'power' was being in good shape and throwing explosive disks at people? Captain America's old flunky? Whats that got to do with the mystical world, anyway? "Hah Dormammu; eat explosive discus!" Ghost Rider I can see being a natural shoe in, but Nomad? :rollseyes: Doc must have been really scraping the barrel on that one. In fact, he probably kept the 'Secret Defenders' a secret just so know one would know he had to stoop to slumming with the likes of him.



There were also points where the Eye of Agomotto wouldn't open, and his cloak got shredded.

Hmmm....Focus Lims getting applied? I assume he got the cloak fixed at some point. On the subject of the eye, ever wonder if the Eye isnt the real character and it took Strange as a DNPC? ;)



There were times when he was alone, without even Wong, and there were times he had Clea, Wong, and Rintrah. How would you classify each of them in terms of Followers, Contacts, DNPCs, or simply allies?



So, I guess my answer would be: It depends. How many points are allowed in the game you want him in? You can really craft him to suit. I could make a pretty nifty low-end Doc with 200 +150, but I'd be closer to 1000 or so at his peak.

James.
:)

Well, the idea isnt to actually convert him into the HERO System; Im working on a character to be the 'Sorceror Supreme' of my Champions dimension (Lord Arcane, Magus Maximus posted elsewhere on the Champions board (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2894) and I want him to be in the correct 'ballpark' points-wise to fill the Dr. Strange role. My original pass at him was 650 pts and I was fairly happy with that, but one of my players (WilyQuixote) thought he should be more points than that; at least 1000 points was his opinion. So, Ive already decided to bump him up to that level when I get the time this week, but I thought I would poll the boards and get a feel for how many points everyone else thought Strange would be.

[JmOz]

My worlds Sorcerer Suprememe type (Called the Lore master) is 500+200 in Disads, he did not pay for his apprentice as a follower, and only paid a portion of the price for his base

[Champsguy]

Well, he's probably around 1,000 points for his efficient combat/knowledge stuff. It's going to go much higher if you start trying to buy every little Contact that Strange has aquired over the years. A lot of Destroyer's points came from useless crap like KS: Winemaking or whatever (don't have the writeup here, so I'm just guessing at it). Strange, on the other hand, is going to be 1,000 without all that stuff. He does save some points, however, because he doesn't have exceptionally high physical characteristics (though his mystic ones are off the chart).

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Wow; he must have been in dire straits to enlist the aid of Nomad! Why Nomad anyway? Wasnt he the guy whos 'power' was being in good shape and throwing explosive disks at people? Captain America's old flunky? Whats that got to do with the mystical world, anyway? "Hah Dormammu; eat explosive discus!" Ghost Rider I can see being a natural shoe in, but Nomad? :rollseyes: Doc must have been really scraping the barrel on that one. In fact, he probably kept the 'Secret Defenders' a secret just so know one would know he had to stoop to slumming with the likes of him.


Actually, for a time, Nomad was pretty damn cool. At least in much of his limited series and short run series (Though the art started to get bad on that one).
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/7589/nomad.html
Last I heard he was the new Scourge or something. :(

[Supreme]

I would have a real problem quantifying Dr. Strange, and a similar amount of difficulty accepting anyone else's quantifications. This is because Dr. Strange's abilties have always seemed to me to be incredibly vague in presentation. He rarely channels his "full mystic might" into anything physical and measurable. And when it comes to his mental workings, he can do things like hit Galactus with a whopper of a mental illusions spell (made him see the spirits of all those he's killed - somewhere in the trillions, I bet) without breaking a sweat from the effort (does Galactus have no Mental defense?). Admittedly, I never read Dr. Strange regularly, and am completely behind on the current continuity. I'm just basing this on all the other comics he's appeared in over the years.

[Blue]

Originally posted by Hermit
Actually, for a time, Nomad was pretty damn cool. At least in much of his limited series and short run series (Though the art started to get bad on that one).
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/7589/nomad.html
Last I heard he was the new Scourge or something. :(

Of course you're going to say that. You'd probably have a problem with us picking on Bucky or the Falcon too. :)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Blue
Of course you're going to say that. You'd probably have a problem with us picking on Bucky or the Falcon too. :)
Why no. I have no problem. If anyone wishes to reveal their ignorance and small mindedness of the true nature of Cap and his allies, who am I to say their backassward ways and petty meaningless mouthings are wrong? ;)

(Okay, okay, maybe I have a LITTLE bias... sorry Killer Shrike, I shouldn't have derailed the thread :o )

To get back on the subject: Doctor Strange , like most comic characters seems to waver a lot. I think he could be done on 800 points or so, but I can easily see more or less depending on what 'era' we're talking. Perhaps "Sorcerer Supreme" should be considered a Perk, allowing him to ask (or even insist from) higher powers for their assistance.

[Balok]

I have to go with "at least 1500". I arrived at this figure by comparing him to Takofanes, in whose class he belongs. He's faced down cosmic powered beings on occasion. Sure, he draws on the power of other creatures (like Agamotto, Ikonn, Cytorrak, and others), but the ability to persuade them to part with a portion of their power is significant.

At times he has been considerably weaker than this, but the key (I believe) fact to keep in mind is that he's "Earth's Sorceror Supreme", personally trained by the previous officeholder. He's definitely a heavy hitter. In fact, in addition to being the most powerful magician in the Marvel universe, I'd say he's probably powerful enough to take on anyone in the DC universe except Dr. Fate. If that doesn't merit at least 1500 points, what does?

[RevHooligan]

Rintrah? Rintrah? The weaving minotaur guy? I forgot all about Rintrah! I FREAKIN' LOVED RINTRAH! Looks like i'm gonna add a new NPC.

[Pattern Ghost]

Rintrah rules!

The absolute best resource on Dr. Strange and the Marvel magic scene is Kim Eastland's Realms of Magic for the old MSH game. Fortunately, you can find that (and the core rules, and other supplements) here:

http://www.heroplay.com/features/rules/marvel.php

The discussion on how magic works is pretty detailed and easily breaks down into Hero advantages and disadvantages, and the majority of the spells are a snap to do in Hero.

[i3ullseye]

Doc himself woudl nto be too high point wise I think. 400 to 500 tops. But he woudl get a huge boost at 5 to 1 for items.

And he would spend easily 30 pts in contacts. This is where his real strength is. Doc doesn;t do bad on his own, but when the going gets tough.... he calls on the hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!

In his case it is not what you know, but who you know.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Rintrah rules!

The absolute best resource on Dr. Strange and the Marvel magic scene is Kim Eastland's Realms of Magic for the old MSH game. Fortunately, you can find that (and the core rules, and other supplements) here:

http://www.heroplay.com/features/rules/marvel.php

The discussion on how magic works is pretty detailed and easily breaks down into Hero advantages and disadvantages, and the majority of the spells are a snap to do in Hero.

Hehe. I loved that old game; MSH Advanced with the UPB could be very fun with a good group. It could also be a complete travesty with a not so good group ;)


Thanx for the link; now Ill never get to sleep!

[Lord Liaden]

My feeling goes with the majority: at least 1,000 points to do Dr. Strange up right. This would subsume essential elements of the character such as Knowledge Skills (Strange is by definition the most knowledgeable person about occult matters in the world), Contacts (pretty much every benevolent mystic on Earth and nearby dimensions, plus a host of non-magical superheroes he's helped), Base (the Sanctum Sanctorum has many unusual properties, a well-stocked library of esoterica, and is supposed to be heavily fortified against magical assault), Foci (the Eye and the Orb of Agamotto alone are very formidable, and Strange possesses a veritable trove of artifacts collected over the years), Followers (a loyal personal servant like Wong is very in-genre, and Strange has often had a Disciple with significant skill of his/her own), Wealth (he never seems to lack for any material needs), and Martial Arts (he's displayed a fair degree of skill in HTH combat, which has come in handy when magic wasn't effective). I'd expect any Archmage of Earth worthy of the name to invest substantial Character Points in almost all these areas, in addition to spell mastery.

One thing to consider would be whether to Limit at least some of the sorceror's spells "Less effective against technology" (maybe -1/4). At times Dr. Strange has been pitted against lazers, force-fields and other high-tech toys, and occasionally commented on the greater difficulty of handling energies different from his own. That could account for some of the apparent fluctuation in Strange's power level. Of course, if you intend to almost never have your magician characters interact with more "mainstream" supers, that might not be worth any Limitation at all. However, it would make it easier to justify the Sorceror Supreme asking other heroes for help in areas outside his specialty, and to integrate a powerful magician into adventures with other heroes without completely overshadowing them.

[VictorVonDoom]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Hehe. I loved that old game; MSH Advanced with the UPB could be very fun with a good group. It could also be a complete travesty with a not so good group ;)


Thanx for the link; now Ill never get to sleep!

I am a fan also of that game : i am looking for some conversions in Hero of some characters descripted in that book

I even used the site to get "Weaponslocker" from there because i missed that one

you can also offer me additional info on following questions situated on this thread http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5806
please email me (use profile) with examples (explain them fully how you created it); They may not be based on known characters; The base CP is 500 points if you divert tell me why also

He would easily put 50 points in Vishanti, 30 in Hoggoth, 30 in Agamatto, 50 in clea, 200 points in Rintha as follower, ...maybe a favor or two, a ennemie Dormammu, add DrDoom to the ennemielist, surgery as talent, Tibetian as language, Deamonic languages too, a base (Sanctuarium),...
and go on

hmm where is that link with the spell list write-up of DrStrange ...it must be on this forum?

[Crimson Arrow]

I was also thinking that, to reflect Dr. Strange/ Marvel Universe magic, perhaps entities like Cyttorak and Hoggoth are bought as Contacts, Anyone remember when he used to call on Dormammu (whoops!)? Actually, I only know that from reprints; I'm not that old!

I think to get DS right, you need to reflect the Marvel Universe magic system, as written up for the old TSR game (which I used to like a lot and is the reason I have no 3rd Ed. HERO stuff), just as 2gunkid suggested.

Killer Shrike could be right that Personal magic is an EC, but we don't want another debate over whether "magic" is enough for an EC (or do we?). I think I'd do that sort of stuff either as individual powers or an MP, with Universal magic as a separate MP, or, more likely a VPP. The Dimensional magic could be part of the VPP, a separate VPP (perhaps with a "Contact Entity" skill to access the powers), or some form of Contacts (which I like, for flavour, although most of the time DS never had any problems with getting the Vishanti or whoever to respond).

My guess is around 1,000 points, maybe a bit more. He has lots of magical bits and bobs (maybe a VPP at certain stages of his career to reflect his knack for finding relevant stuff), including the Eye, Orb and Cloak (or was it a cape, I can't remember?), the Brownstone and some Contacts/Followers.

However, as a lot of people have pointed out, there have been variances in his power levels, so I'll go with the average of 1,000.

[Killer Shrike]

Wow. Talk about a blast from the past. This post is almost 3 months old....

I should point out for latecomers benefit that the goal wasnt to convert Dr. Strange or recreate the Marvel Magic system in HEROs; I was looking for the right point range to stat a "Sorceror Supreme" type character, which I called Magus Maximus for my CU campaign.

In my case, I used "Lord Arcane", Jareth Nigel Maskelyne, as the Magus Maximus. He worked out well ;)

<img src="http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=97194">

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
In my case, I used "Lord Arcane", Jareth Nigel Maskelyne, as the Magus Maximus. He worked out well ;)
Reminiscent of Zatara. Cool.

[VictorVonDoom]

If you want really a CU version of DrStrange then his Dimensional energies must fall in a different VVP ; his Universal in a different one and his Personal in another one

The three pools added with eachother combined his real pool
aside that pool he can use items ; He can maybe put that as talents; because he knows how to use them...

I am new in Herogames so for me bumping up this thread helps me also ...so i can go further; If i want make a MU mage a CU mage and Visa Versa...

[Crimson Arrow]

For those who don't know, there were generations of Maskelynes who were stage magicians.

Jasper POSSIBLY designed illusions to assist the allies in the desrt campaigns of WWII. How many there were and how successfully they fooled the Germans, who knows? Maybe he didn't use stage magic at all?

The Maskelynes were also inventors.

http://www.acmi.net.au/AIC/MASKELYNE_BIO.html

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow
For those who don't know, there were generations of Maskelynes who were stage magicians.

Jasper POSSIBLY designed illusions to assist the allies in the desrt campaigns of WWII. How many there were and how successfully they fooled the Germans, who knows? Maybe he didn't use stage magic at all?

The Maskelynes were also inventors.

http://www.acmi.net.au/AIC/MASKELYNE_BIO.html ;)

Yep.

Jaspers grandfather (or father? I forget now), wrote one of the seminal works on Stage magic.

And actually, Jasper Maskelyne did indeed put his knowledge of stage illusions to work in the African Theatre of WW2 as a Camoflage and Concealment officer. He hid an armored column at one point, manufactured another, staged an amphibious raid with a couple of barges and some noise makers (forcing the Germans to split thier forces at a crucial moment), and innovated the creation of a phantom super-battleship. He also provided several gadgets to assist in escape artistry tricks for use by spys, and a creme used by stage magicians when working with fire that helped prevent burns, to help prevent pilots from getting roasted by the volatile JP used at the time.

As it played out, his contributions were informally recognized by Mr. "Truth must be accompanied at all times by a body guard of lies" Churchill, but downplayed in the offical account in favor of more 'honorable' and conventional methods.

One of my favorite PCs of times past was named (Sir) Jasper Maskelyne, a Transmuter/Invoker/Illusionist type of Wizard. Originally I created him as Transmuter from the Shield Lands\Furyondy for a Greyhawk PBEM campaign run by Gary Holian (who worked for WotC recently on some of the Greyhawk material) during the "Greyhawk Interregnum", when TSR was still in thier deny and discourage phase regarding Greyhawk. The PBEM thing didnt work out, but I really liked the character, so I later retreaded him for a GreyHERO Campaign when one of my players decided to run a campaign centered around the recovery of the Crook of Rao in the Great Kingdom (after which he as honorarially Knighted into a Velunese ceremonial/honorary order along with the other survivors).

The character was a blast, and very memorable. I played him as a somewhat arrogant and slightly overbearing proponent of law and order, with my best attempt at a supercilious british accent. He refused to make deals with those of questionable morals or ethics, and would scourge evil whereever he found it (which in the decadent and corrupt Great Kingdom made it very difficult to get along ;) ). His most often heard quote was "No conciliation with Evil!", usually followed by a blistering arcane assault. There was also a Raoite "paladin" (A Torchbearer of Rao) in the group, who Jasper constantly referred to sneeringly as "Conciliator", because the Church of Rao ramrodded the Greyhawk Treaty between Furyondy and the evil nation of Iuz which had subsumed the Shield Lands, attacked Furyondy, and currently occupied part of northern Furyondy.

Hehe. He'd interject with things like

"There will be none of your 'diplomacy' Raoite; Ill not have you collaborating with these base villains. Show some courage man; draw your sword and make quick with it. You can use your silvered tongue if you must to discuss terms for thier surrender after we've given them what for!"

or at one point another PC was conflicting with Jasper over the use of subterfuge to make an alliance with an organization dedicated to an evil god. Jasper's plan of course involved a more direct assault. He didnt have any problem with battlefield subterfuge, but would not allow deal making with such an organization.

J - "Are you constitutionally incapable of bravery, man?"

Other PC - "No. Im just 'constituionally incapable' of dealing with ignorance and stupidity!" -- (referring to Jaspers unyielding bullet-headedness)

J - "However do you live with yourself then?" ;)



:) He was one of those 'special' characters that every thing went right for. He always seemed to have the right trick for a given situation, and everytime the opposition tried to neutralize him he had something to counter it with. The dice came up his way a lot; low attack and skill rolls, big effect/damage rolls, and enemies would be confounded by the opposite. The dice gods liked him :)

Lots of fun.

Crimson Arrow, you are the first person to ever get the reference to the Maskelynes :D

[Killer Shrike]

I forgot a point; a more distant anceastor had been the Royal Astrologer or something to that affect previously. Basically, as far as I know, the Maskelynes have one of the longest running associations with "magic" among modern families.

Thus I thought it amusing to posit another scion of the Maskelyne line to fill the "Sorceror Supreme" niche in my campaign (called the "The Magus Maximus" in my campaign -- we wouldnt want to get sued afterall ;) ), an older brother to Jasper whose existence has been deliberately obscured in the furtherance of his long service as the Lord Arcane.

[VictorVonDoom]

Are you saying that all magic users (Merlin, DrStrange, ...) are derived from that single guy?

I thought it came from Pulp: Magic in Pulp was famous in its years. You have mages also there. The best i remember by name is Mandrake the Magician (a sleight of hand character is also the Shadow 'The Shadow Knows'; This guy isn't magical but he used his ring to change himself; see the movie)
Dr Strange had also a movie in 1979 (it was a cultmovie in those years); I have contacted a guy once which was a major fan of him
he publish a book of the Vishanti himself online

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Crimson Arrow, you are the first person to ever get the reference to the Maskelynes :D

In some respects I am not surprised, in spite of the whole family being a bunch of inventors and magicians. Must be the effects of that memory charm.

I saw an interesting documentary about Jasper several months ago. It suggested he might have exaggerated what he did in the war, but also acknowledged the fact that he received no official recognition for things he most certainly did do. I think it might well have been a desire to downplay the use of subterfuge by the allies, which is ridiculous IMHO, but I suppose that was nearly 60 years ago.

One thing mentioned in the documentary which he might have done, was create a dummy port (Alexandria, IIRC blasted memory charm), to lure attention away from the real one a few miles away.

VictorVonDoom - I think KS is saying that he used the Maskelyne family (real people with connections to stage magic and possibly occult things such as astrology) and used them in his campaign, giving things a fictional spin. Even then, I don't think he was claiming a connection between the Maskelynes and every mage.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow
In some respects I am not surprised, in spite of the whole family being a bunch of inventors and magicians. Must be the effects of that memory charm.

I saw an interesting documentary about Jasper several months ago. It suggested he might have exaggerated what he did in the war, but also acknowledged the fact that he received no official recognition for things he most certainly did do. I think it might well have been a desire to downplay the use of subterfuge by the allies, which is ridiculous IMHO, but I suppose that was nearly 60 years ago.

One thing mentioned in the documentary which he might have done, was create a dummy port (Alexandria, IIRC blasted memory charm), to lure attention away from the real one a few miles away. Yes, this was one of his first projects in-theatre, and it worked for a long time. Back then, pilots didnt have radar; they operated on visuals. He also constructe "light pinwheels" made of spot lights on revolving apparati which spun quickly in conjunction with many other pinwheels. The net result of which was a 1 mile no-fly corridor along the Nile IIRC; the light effect was so disorienting that pilots would lose sense of up/down and become blinded & disoriented. Again, this wouldnt be effective today thanx to radar and other "blind flying" technology.

He also pioneered the idea of counter concealment. Stemming from his understanding of misdirection and double blinds, and the old stage magician trick of appearing to botch a trick or revealing a trick to disguise the _real_ trick. By hiding tanks as trucks with collapsable wood and canvas shells, and making mock tanks out of jeeps in the same fashion (plus a device to hid the jeeps wheel ruts and lay down track marks), you could not only disguise columns, but also give misinformation. You could make it look like you had a massive armored column, no armored column at all, just a supply train, and everything in between. German aerial recon had been a devastating advantage in theatre as they effectively had air superiority, but after Maskelyne the veracity of the recon was questionable, and nullified a major advantage of the Germans. Suddenly, Rommel couldnt be as sure in his strikes because the enemy positions were not necessarily what they seemed.

He also built up a totally fake base camp for a column at one point and deliberately made it look like it was logistically floundered, with insufficient fuel and supplies to mount an assault. This masked the movement of the real column which was able to deliver a surprise attack at a crucial moment (when Rommel was out of theatre).

As far as overstating his contributions, I would look at it like this. In a theatre that large, no one man's actions could result in success or failure, and the impact of one man or another is difficult to determine. However, he did do many things which contributed to victory. As far as it being discounted, the importance of misdirection, subterfuge, and counter intelligence is always discounted by operators; they prefer to think in terms of bigger hammers. Sunday football mentality -- if they win its because God was on thier side and becuase they rule; if they lose its because the other team cheated ;) . Also, it was common procedure at the time to downplay and conceal the role of intel, black ops, and other unusual methods of achieving victory for a variety of reasons. Many such operations were classified, the techniques were still in use (no point in bragging about how good your deception techniques are, or they stop being effective ;) ), and of course many people still considered it dishonorable to use trickery and falsehoods. It was a more naive time in some ways. We won the war because true blue native sons fought and died valorously vs the craven enemy, not because of intelligence coups like code breaking (MAGIC), intricate deception (The Man that Never Was), black ops raids (Heavy Water in Finland), or illusions (Maskelynes Camouflage brigade) ;).


VictorVonDoom - I think KS is saying that he used the Maskelyne family (real people with connections to stage magic and possibly occult things such as astrology) and used them in his campaign, giving things a fictional spin. Even then, I don't think he was claiming a connection between the Maskelynes and every mage. Quite right. I based a character in my campaign upon a real world family of stage magicians and inventors, because it strikes me as humorous to do so. I would never suggest that all fictional magickers are based on that family; if nothing else even if it werent easily disprovable, its also illogical and simplemined to ever assume 1 common source for anything. :)

Further, what Im saying is that at no time was I attempting to actually convert Dr. Strange OR Marvel Magic to the HERO System; I was merely curious to discover whant point level people consider suitable for a magicker of equivalent power level within the context of the HERO System. The majority vote indicates 1000 points.

[Agent X]

Dr. Strange could probably be made on 1,500-1,999 points. If I tried to build him, I might find that he should be built on more.

Don't forget his martial arts skills. He duked it out with Mantis and won!

[VictorVonDoom]

I voted also on 1000+ points

[Crimson Arrow]

Killer Shrike, you certainly know a lot about Jasper Maskelyne.

I am inclined to agree with your analysis of how much he did and why it was played down so much. Shame it apparently left him bitter.

I think it's a great idea to use the Maskelynes as a sorcerous family (in case you hadn't already worked that out).

Blackstone would have been a great name for his rival, wouldn't it?;)

[Killer Shrike]

Heh...

I became familiar with him while I was in military intelligence. I bumped into a mention of him while reading some stuff about Rommel and it sounded intriguing so I tracked more info down. I got ahold of a copy of War Magician, and checked out some other bits here and there. Its a difficult subject to find data on and is difficult to coroborate, but the whole idea always amused me so I chose to accept the accounts as provisionally true. Its one of those Truth is Stranger Than Fiction type things ;)

[Killer Shrike]

Here is some biographical info I found on a Whos Who in Magic site:

<table>
<tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><small><font face="Arial" color="#800080"><strong><a name="MaskelyneJ">Maskelyne, Jasper</a> (1902-1973) </strong></font><br> <font face="Arial" color="#000000">British-born magician, grandson of John Nevil
Maskelyne. During World War II, he became part of an elite military unit which utilized
his magical knowledge of illusions in its Suez Canal campaign. He was able to devise ways
to camouflage tanks and munitions storage from the air, and even &quot;moved&quot; an
entire city several miles down the coast. Several books have been written about his
wartime feats.</font></small></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="100%" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><small><font face="Arial" color="#800080"><strong><a name="Maskelyne">Maskelyne</a>, John Nevil (1839-1917) </strong></font><br> <font face="Arial" color="#000000">British-born magician who got his start exposing the
spiritism performance of the Davenport brothers. His performing partner was George Cooke.
He opened the Egyptian Hall in London, a showplace for magic and illusion performances,
and operated it for thirty years. In partnership with David Devant, he then opened St.
George's Hall, a similar venue. A feisty personality, he was involved in two nasty and
noteworthy lawsuits. The first involved a claim that Maskelyne had not exactly duplicated
the feats of a spirit medium and was therefore not entitled to the challenge money
offered. The second suit involved his attempt to stop two other magicians from performing
a box escape similar to the one in his show; this suit was dropped when Maskelyne refused
to reveal the secret of the escape to the court. He introduced the Levitation illusion in 1873, floating his wife horizontally above the stage.</font></small></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="100%" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><small><font face="Arial" color="#800080"><strong>Maskelyne, Nevil (1863-1924) </strong></font><br> <font face="Arial" color="#000000">British-born magician, son of John Nevil Maskelyne and
father of Jasper. He co-authored an important book on magic presentation with David Devant
called <em>Our Magic</em>.</font></small></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="100%" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><small><font face="Arial" color="#800080"><strong>Maskelyne, Noel (?-1976) </strong></font><br> <font face="Arial" color="#000000">British-born magician, son of Nevil Maskelyne and
brother of Jasper. Originally an electrical engineer, he joined the Maskelyne company on
the death of his father. </font></small></td> </tr></table>

[Killer Shrike]

Following up on Crimson Arrows Blackstone reference, here is some info on the Blackstone family:
<table><tr> <td width="100%" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><small><font face="Arial" color="#800080"><strong><a name="Blackstone">Blackstone</a>, Harry Sr. (1885-1965)</strong><br> </font><font face="Arial" color="#000000">Legendary American stage magician. Born Harry
Boughton, he started as one half of a vaudeville comedy act with his brother, Pete Bouton.
Along with his long stage career, he co-founded Blackstone's Magic Co. with <a href="whoswhoab.htm#Abbott">Percy Abbott</a> in the 1929. He is credited with creating
classic routines for the Dancing Handkerchief, the Vanishing Bird Cage, the Buzz Saw, and
of course, the Floating Light Bulb. Many feel that he was the best example of what a
magician should be. He was succeeded by his son, Harry Blackstone Jr.</font></small></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="100%" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><small><font face="Arial" color="#800080"><strong>Blackstone, Harry Jr. (1934-1997)</strong><br> </font><font face="Arial" color="#000000">Famous and successful contemporary American
stage magician. As well as extensively touring with his version of his father's stage
show, he was also an actor (with a number of roles to his credit, frequently as a magician
character) and a producer (Broadway's <em>Hair</em>, TV's <em>Smothers Brothers</em>). His
dramatic flair and powerful stage presence made him an unforgettable performer. Wife Gay
and daughter Bellamie continue to perform.</font></small></td> </tr></table>

[VictorVonDoom]

that would change the question into how much points should normal sleight of hand artists have ? :)

[Matt the Bruins]

In some respects, I think the answer depends on what stage of Dr. Strange's career you want to have a rough correspondence to. Probably the "classic" version from the 60s and early 70s is the most familiar to all but dedicated fans of the character: the one who was acting as the world's frontline magical defender, but still had his mentor the Ancient One alive and available for guidance and occasional tangible backup.

That version is the basis for the Vincent Demetrios character in Champions (as the Ancient One is the basis for the Revered Elder), something like an 800 pt. character if I remember correctly. Although even then Strange possessed the Eye of Agamotto which is probably a 250-300 pt. artifact in its own right. I'd say roughly 1,000 character points would be a good benchmark.

Years later Strange inherited all the Ancient One's mystical power and occult paraphernalia in addition to his own. And he's since come into possession of the world's foremost grimoire of black magic spells, counterbalancing the similar volume of white magic lore he already possessed. This version is the one who knocked Galactus into a coma with one of his spells, and is arguably the most powerful Marvel hero. If you want your sorcerer supreme to have that kind of cosmic power, probably the 1300 to 1500 pt. range would be better. Or maybe just using him as a Plot Element, since I don't imagine the player characters of your campaign would have anything approaching that power level.

[Hermit]

Speaking of magic, that's some serious thread necromancy

[Matt the Bruins]

Heh. Yeah, just found my way to these forums via a search that turned up this discussion and thought I'd weigh in from the perspective of a Dr. Strange fangeek.

On the bright side, maybe the PCs in that campaign are 1300-1500 pt. characters by now!

[Hermit]

Well, if no one else has done it yet, welcome aboard. :)

[TheRavenIs]

I went the 2000 points level. To be the true "Earth's Sorceror Supreme", he has to be beyond the highest end of the power spectrum. I see the good Dr. as being able to deal on he's own with threaths that no other power in the Marvel universer can, so he has to be in 2000 point level.

[Powerhouse]

My attempt at a novice archmage (an experienced mage but still new to the office) rang in at 1000 pts so Dr. Strange would be much higher I think with alot of that in knowledge skills, HQ, and contacts.

[Spence]

I read a release from the new marvel company they formed to make the movies and it had Dr S on the list again. I wanted to read it again but the content now requires registration. We are talking 08 for a start of development. But 08 is much better than not at all.

So anyone actually write him up?

[gojira]

Welcome Valkyrie....er, Matt the Bruins!

Thread sez braaains.

Cool thread though. I'm not a DS fanboy, but he's pretty cool, and the links here are cool too.

[Powerhouse]

While not a write up for Doctor Strange, I think that my Lady Silver write up would be a decent template for him, at least at the beginning of his career:

Lady Silver

Player:

Val Char Cost
15 STR 5
23 DEX 39
23 CON 26
11 BODY 2
23 INT 13
28 EGO 36
25 PRE 15
24 COM 7

8 PD 5
8 ED 3
6 SPD 27
10 REC 4
54 END 4
38 STUN 7

6" RUN 0
2" SWIM 0
3" LEAP 0
Characteristics Cost: 193

Cost Power
250 Sorcery: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 100 base + 150 control cost, Cosmic (+2)
27 Appeal: Aid 5d6, any magic spell one at a time (+1/4) (62 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Must be in higher power's interest (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)
65 Defensive Spells: Multipower, 65-point reserve
6u 1) Shield of Protection (General Wards): Force Field (15 PD/15 ED/10 Mental Defense/10 Power Defense), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)
6u 2) Shield of Protection (Physical Ward): Force Field (25 PD/25 ED), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)
6u 3) Shield of Protection (Mystic Wards): Force Field (17 ED/17 Mental Defense/16 Power Defense), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (62 Active Points)
6u 4) Shield of Protection (Passive Warding): Force Field (9 PD/9 ED/8 Power Defense), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (65 Active Points)
6u 5) Physical Barrier: Force Wall (13 PD/13 ED) (65 Active Points)
6u 6) Mystic Barrier: Force Wall (9 ED/9 Mental Defense/8 Power Defense) (65 Active Points)
10 Teleportation: Floating Fixed Location (2 Locations)
14 Iron Will: Mental Defense (20 points total)
5 Iron Will: Damage Resistance (10 Mental Def.)
5 Iron Will: +10 PRE (10 Active Points); Limited Power Only to defend against Presence attacks (-1)
7 Mystic Warding: Power Defense (10 points) (10 Active Points); Only Works Against Magic Limited Type of Attack (-1/2)
5 Life Support (Longevity: Immortal), Limited Power Only as long as Archmage (+0)
62 Astral Form: Duplication (creates 1065-point form), Altered Duplicates (25%; +1/4) (266 Active Points); Original Character is helpless and incapacitated while duplicate exists (-1), Feedback (All Duplicates Take Damage When Struck; -1), Both Characters die if they do not recombine within 24 hours (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, Character must concentrate to leave fleshy prison; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)
8 Spell of Concealment: Cosmetic Transform 2d6 (costume to any type of clothing), Improved Target Group (+1/4) (12 Active Points); Limited Target ([Limited]; -1/2)
22 Mage Sense: Detect Magic 14- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Range, Sense
10 Astral Awareness: Dimensional (Astral Plane) for Sight and Hearing Groups (10 Active Points)
Artifacts and Magic Items
32 The Star of Urizen: (Artifact from The Mystic World)
24 Mystic Cloak: Flight 12", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (36 Active Points); OIF (Mystic Cloak; -1/2)



Powers Cost: 582

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver
Kung fu
4 1) Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
4 2) Punch/Kick: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 5d6 Strike
4 3) Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 25 STR to Disarm
4 4) Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 30 STR vs. Grabs
3 5) Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 3d6 +v/5, Target Falls
Martial Arts Cost: 19

Cost Skill
5 Analyze: Magic 15-
3 Breakfall 14-
3 Conversation 14-
3 High Society 14-
2 Language: Sanskrit (fluent conversation)
2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)
3 Navigation (Astral, Dimensional) 14-
3 Oratory 14-
3 Paramedics 14-
3 Persuasion 14-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Ancient Lore (3 Active Points) 14-
1 2) KS: Demonology (2 Active Points) 11-
2 3) KS: Magic Styles (3 Active Points) 14-
3 4) KS: Mystic World (4 Active Points) 15-
1 5) KS: Mythology (2 Active Points) 11-
3 6) KS: Occult Lore (4 Active Points) 15-
5 Spell Research 15-
3 Tactics 14-
3 Traveler
1 1) AK: Astral Plane (2 Active Points) 11-
1 2) AK: Mystic Places (2 Active Points) 11-
1 3) AK: Outer Planes (2 Active Points) 11-
3 Teamwork 14-
20 +2 Overall
9 +3 with Sorcery
Skills Cost: 91

Cost Perk
70 Base (350 active points)
3 Well-Connected
20 20 pts spent on Contacts and Favors
3 Access: the Brialic Planes
5 Money: Well Off
1 Fringe Benefit: Library of Babylon Borrower's Card
9 Reputation: Well regarded and compassionate hero (world-wide) 14-, +3/+3d6
Perks Cost: 111

Cost Talent
40 Universal Translator 14-, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (40 Active Points)
27 Danger Sense (planetary scale only, any danger, Function as a sense) 14-
2 Lightning Reflexes: +2 DEX to act first with All Actions (3 Active Points); Only with magic (-1/2)
Talents Cost: 69

Total Character Cost: 1065

Pts. Disadvantage
20 Psychological Limitation: Code Against Killing (Common, Total)
20 Psychological Limitation: Compassionate (Very Common, Strong)
10 Psychological Limitation: Sworn to protect Earth against evil magic (Uncommon, Strong)
15 Hunted: DEMON 8- (As Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)
15 Hunted: Sylvestri Clan 8- (As Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)
15 Hunted : Circle of the Scarlet Moon 8- (As Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)
5 Hunted: Skarn the Shaper 8- (Mo Pow, Limited Geographical Area, Mildly Punish - wants to marry Lady Silver)
15 Social Limitation: Secret Identity Frequently (11-), Major
10 Reputation: Novice Arch Mage, 14- (Known Only To A Small Group)
10 Distinctive Features: (Not Concealable; Always Noticed; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)
15 DNPC's to be determined
Disadvantage Points: 150
Base Points: 200
Experience Required: 715
Total Experience Available: 715
Experience Unspent: 0

[Powerhouse]

As you can see, her biggest source of powers is her VPP. I gave her cosmic since the arch mage is noted to have near effortless control of magic and is able to conjure almost any effect. To limit this, you might want to consider dropping or lowering the cosmic advantages to simulate the time and effort taken to "weave" a spell.

Depending on the characters knowledge, it might be appropriate to have them make a skill roll to shift their points around to cast a new spell. Similarly, you might require a half-phase (I would not advise for an Arch Mage or Sorceror Supreme requiring more time than that since in comic book magic, they can usually improvise known spells pretty quickly).

Of couse you can also require other, non-point limits to simulate comic book magic, especially as seen in the Doctor Strange books. Dr. Strange for example is not a mage who can heal for example. Also, he tends to stick to known spells and needs to research new ones.