In Real World Terms...

[Speedball]

What could harm a character with 40PD/30rPD and 40ED/30rED? Throw in that his rPD/rED is Hardened x2. I'm thinking in terms of weapons, explosions, etc. I know small arms would just bounce off, but other stuff?

I'm at work and nowhere near my books...
thanks!

[Gary]

A gun which rolls a 6 stun multiple. :D

[Speedball]

An M18, a LAW rocket, a wire-guided missile, and just about anything else with 14 DC ap killing attack.

None of which would be common in a city--or anywhere else, for that matter. I'm curious, too, about something like an 18-wheeler travelling at, say, 30 or 40MPH....any sense of whether this would hurt the character? (70 stun, 30 body, just for reference--this is obviously a high-powered character)

[Blue]

I'm glad someone could think of some. I was sitting here since the post went up trying to think of 14D6 attacks in the real world :)

I thought of being hit by a train (or airplane) but didn't have all my source materials. That just left a Terminal Velocity Fall (30D6).

[Vorsch]

What spd does the semi have?

The only real world comparisons are found from the str chart, and having a semi do the same as being crushed by someone with 200str (250 million times the str of the semi) is ......... strange.

If you set benchmarks from energy use in normal firearms and str you can scale most attacks at real world equivalents, just because this dosent agree with Hero system metagaming rules (such as AP) is no reason to throw them out.

For sake of argument i declare a 1d6Rka as being a normal pistol, its energy is about .005Kg x 320mps / 2 250j of energy

A str 15 human throwing a punch or a stone is about the same.

Now you have to accept that +1dc represents doubling, this is self evedently true for str but people may disagree that it applies to EB Rka and the like.

Also a material with +1res def is meant to be twice as tough, this is a natural extension of +1dc doubling.

As to the original question, def 40res represents a material 1billion times more resestant to damage than body armour def 10. Nothing short of supernovas or black holes produces energy at that kind of intensity.

I will post examples of dcs for attacks/enviromental, if anyone wants me to.

[GaryB]

Tear Gas, Mustard Gas, Flamethrower, Launching him into a Vacuum.

[Lanith]

Don't forget your everyday average car. At least when it's exploding, I think the damage was 12-15d6 explosion.
Other than large (very illegal) firearms, vehicles travelling at top speed, or other super-powered beings that character won't take a scratch.

"The stupendous Brick-Man stands in the middle of Fort Bradley's firing range and calls out; "Hit me!"
Pop-Brack-Pop-Brack is all that can be heard as the entire platoon of Infantry men unload clip after clip from their newest weapons at Brick-Man.
As the last of the noise echoes off the surrounding trees, Brick-Man shrugs and pulls off the remains of his new Ralph Lauren polo and asks; "OK, who's bright idea was it to shoot for my eyes?"

[Vanguard]

Flamethrowers wouldn't work. rED of 30. Would take a 6D6 RKA flamethrower to even hope of landing body and then you'd need to nearly max out the roll to do that.

The other attacks, Mustard Gas, Tear Gas, Vacuum etc have a better chance to do something since they'd more then likely be built as NNDs (some that might even do body).

As for other stuff, Kinetic Kills (dropping an asteroid on his head), dropping him into the heart of the sun, have him stand at Ground Zero of a nuclear explosion. With defenses like that you'd need some pretty hefty attacks to even make him blink. (Now, we know he can be stunned and knocked out but to actually break the skin is going to take some real honest to god, solid effort).

[John T]

A sufficient Find Weakness roll... :whistle:

John T

[Metaphysician]

Do you mean "getting Stun through" or "getting Body through"??

[Arkham]

A light sabre.
Just a 2d6 RKA No Range, NND ( Force field ) Does Body.
Or a mental virus. AVLD Mental Defense.
Pretty much anything that doesn't try to go through the
obvious routes.

[Intrope]

To get back to the real world items for a moment:
A tank column (Abrams tanks; with 8d6 RKA, massed fire could probably take him down)
Guns on naval vessesl (5" and up)
various Bombs and Missiles (many of these will have a hard time hitting, unless they're precision munitions like JDAM or Tomahawks--and even then, this assumes he either doesn't move real fast, or at least stops once in a while)
Traps involving large amounts of high explosives
Dropping him in an active volcano, or vat of molten steel, perhaps. Stuffing him into a blast furnace for metal smelting.
Sink him into the Marianas trench in the Pacific ocean.

(Note that 30rDEF is the same as the front armor of an Abrams as a reference point)

On the NND/AVLD-type attacks:
Drop him into a holding take for spent nuclear fuel
Find out where he sleeps, and asphyxiate him with Nitrogen (that is, fill his sleeping chamber with pure Nitrogen. You can't smell it or see it, and unlike CO2 poisoning it doesn't trigger any gag-type reflexes).

Hope that helps...

[Foxiekins]

Anything you think would be represented by a 3.5d6 Rka or higher, with 3 doses of Armor Piercing...

That would be an Active Cost of at least 137 points...

Cheaper to just go for a 7d6 Rka or higher, ignoring the Armor Piercing...

That's an Active Cost of at least 105 points... But the first option would be more likely to hurt him statistically, however...

What could be represented by this...? Hmmm... What about a projectile with a shaped explosive charge in its tip...?

[Champsguy]

Lightsabers aren't NND.

[JmOz]

Lightsabers aren't NND.

I build mine as AVLD: vs Force Fields (+3/4), and does Body (+1)

[Speedball]

More to the point, lightsabres aren't REAL WORLD.

[Champsguy]

I build mine as AVLD: vs Force Fields (+3/4), and does Body (+1)

I think you give them too much credit. They're just an energy attack.

[WhammeWhamme]

I think you give them too much credit. They're just an energy attack.

I dunno about that. The Blast Doors slowed them down, but a Blast Door generally has a lot of BODY as well as DEF, and Blasters weren't doing anything to the door.

[Champsguy]

I dunno about that. The Blast Doors slowed them down, but a Blast Door generally has a lot of BODY as well as DEF, and Blasters weren't doing anything to the door.

Well, maybe they're Armor Piercing. But as you mentioned, the blast doors slowed them down. They wouldn't slow down an NND or AVLD attack at all.

[WhammeWhamme]

Well, maybe they're Armor Piercing. But as you mentioned, the blast doors slowed them down. They wouldn't slow down an NND or AVLD attack at all.

Er... yes they would. Having a lot of BODY (which thick metal doors would have) means it takes longer to 'blast a hole' into something.

I mean, it would take a while to cut a man sized hole in ANYTHING with a Lightsaber. Even a mud wall. They don't do much BODY in a single hit, even to an unarmoured human (which, incidently, they cut through as easily as a an armoured human).

It's not just armour piercing, it's Armour 'I don't give a damn if it's there'ing.

[Foxiekins]

I'd call it a 2d6 HKA vs ED, Penetrating... Maybe 3d6...

That would be 45 Active points for 2d6, or 67 Active points for 3d6...

[Champsguy]

Er... yes they would. Having a lot of BODY (which thick metal doors would have) means it takes longer to 'blast a hole' into something.

I mean, it would take a while to cut a man sized hole in ANYTHING with a Lightsaber. Even a mud wall. They don't do much BODY in a single hit, even to an unarmoured human (which, incidently, they cut through as easily as a an armoured human).

It's not just armour piercing, it's Armour 'I don't give a damn if it's there'ing.


According to pg 304 of 5th Edition (not revised), a 1 meter wall of metal has 17 Body. All a character has to do is exceed that Body to put a man-sized hole in it. Even at a 2D6 NND HKA, a lightsaber is through that in 3 phases, easy. With a Spd 5 Jedi, that's about 6 seconds. It took longer to get through it in the movie than that.

And cutting through armored humans? That's storm trooper armor, dude. Ewoks threw rocks that went through that armor.

[Foxiekins]

A 2d6 HKA Penetrating would take 8 or 9 phases to cut through a 17 Body door... A 3d6 HKA Penetrating would take 5 or 6 phases, unless those doors have Hardened Defenses, in which case it could take a while... Since they sound like Heavy armor to me, that would be 19 DEF... If they are Hardened, someone would have to put their back into it, and boost the HKA with their STR... That would boost the 3d6 HKA up to a 4d6 HKA, for STR 15, and cut through in a minimum of 4 phases, although statistically it would take more than 50 phases... If a Jedi could get up enough STR, he could boost the 3d6 HKA to a 6d6 HKA... That would cut through in 1 phase with a good roll, but would require the Jedi to be using the Force to boost his STR to 45... But, again, it would *statistically* take around 6 phases even then...

I'd call a Lightsaber a 3d6 HKA Penetrating, and assume the doors that were a problem were hardened...

[Vorsch]

Well thanks to the starwars fanatics.

What in the real world can damage def 40 material

Nothing

not even a nuke

when you allow non real effect like AP Pen NND then yes almost anything can damage him.

Comparing a superhero game to the real world is just going to show up inconsistiuece that exist in both champions and the comics.

(can some one tell me about the real world 6d6rka flame thrower, thats one that burns throuh a foot of tempered steel in 1 second. just curious)

[lemming]

Heh. One of my first bricks started life at 40/40 full resistant.

Other bricks could hurt. Body didn't happen much. He's the character that went to 1000 xp. I think in all that time he took body less than 20 times (yes, I wrote it down. I also wrote down everytime he was missed. 8 dex)

Real world items, hmm. Not too many out there. Antitank guns, but you were talking about common in a city. Best bet are trains & trucks or some other large bit of transport.

Now if you're trying to do body, well most items just aren't going to until you get into the serious military hardware.

[WhammeWhamme]

According to pg 304 of 5th Edition (not revised), a 1 meter wall of metal has 17 Body. All a character has to do is exceed that Body to put a man-sized hole in it. Even at a 2D6 NND HKA, a lightsaber is through that in 3 phases, easy. With a Spd 5 Jedi, that's about 6 seconds. It took longer to get through it in the movie than that.

And cutting through armored humans? That's storm trooper armor, dude. Ewoks threw rocks that went through that armor.

That's ordinary metal. Presumeably this stuff is unusually dense, etc, since it is in a world with advanced technology relative to Earth.

And they only had a few seconds to do the cutting (I am NOT a big enough geek to look up how long that took, dammit). More than six, sure, but they were what, 1/3rd of the way through it when they broke off?

As for Stormtrooper Armour...

I prefer to think of the Ewoks as the problem. Besides. Stormtrooper Armour is Armour for a warrior designed to fight Blaster battles, not melee. It's ineffectiveness versus physical projectiles is less the issue than how it works versus energy. Which I think it does okay. Stormtroopers go down when shot, but the shots don't look like they were killing.

[Champsguy]

That's ordinary metal. Presumeably this stuff is unusually dense, etc, since it is in a world with advanced technology relative to Earth.

And they only had a few seconds to do the cutting (I am NOT a big enough geek to look up how long that took, dammit). More than six, sure, but they were what, 1/3rd of the way through it when they broke off?

What indication do you have that it's anything other than normal metal? Besides, if it's made of better stuff, that's just more DEF. And, from what I remember from the movie, they spent the equivalent of a few turns standing beside that door, pushing their lightsabers into it, and in the end, had about a 3 foot long cut that they'd made in it. They never actually got through.


As for Stormtrooper Armour...

I prefer to think of the Ewoks as the problem. Besides. Stormtrooper Armour is Armour for a warrior designed to fight Blaster battles, not melee. It's ineffectiveness versus physical projectiles is less the issue than how it works versus energy. Which I think it does okay. Stormtroopers go down when shot, but the shots don't look like they were killing.

Name one time that a stormtrooper got shot with a blaster and didn't fall down. Now why are lightsabers better?

[gewing]

Make it a tanker truck full of gasoline...

I just had a class on WMD and such. the SHOCK WAVE lethal range of car bombs doesn't increase as fast as one might think. The fragmentation area is FAR larger.



A semi has a 60 strength and 21" of movement. That will allow for a 19d6 move-through. If you allow it to attack with its x4 NCM speed it can do up to 40d6. You'd need an above average roll to do any body.

If you're just talking about stun damage then any 12d6 attack will do 42 stun on average. A car traveling at high speed [but not NCM speed] can do 14d6. That would get 9 stun through the character's defenses on average.

[WhammeWhamme]

What indication do you have that it's anything other than normal metal? Besides, if it's made of better stuff, that's just more DEF. And, from what I remember from the movie, they spent the equivalent of a few turns standing beside that door, pushing their lightsabers into it, and in the end, had about a 3 foot long cut that they'd made in it. They never actually got through.



Name one time that a stormtrooper got shot with a blaster and didn't fall down. Now why are lightsabers better?

Lightsabers work well and quickly through normal metal. Besides. Blast Doors _should_ be made of the best stuff you can get a hold of.

Different types of materials do have varying BODY per hex.

I don't remember them trying to break through for very long, and they had to stop because they were under fire anyway.


Okay, okay, Stormtroopers are made of eggshells (did the armour help the heroes? can't remember). The 'sabers do slice equally well through aliens, icebeasts and people though. The only thing I remember ever seeing them go through slowly was that blast door.

[Speedball]

uh...I guess I could be biased, but is this not the worst case of thread hijaking people have seen in a while? Someone posts a question about REAL WORLD things that cold hurt someone and a couple of guys carry on a debate about light sabres?

sheesh!

:p

[Champsguy]

uh...I guess I could be biased, but is this not the worst case of thread hijaking people have seen in a while? Someone posts a question about REAL WORLD things that cold hurt someone and a couple of guys carry on a debate about light sabres?

sheesh!

:p

You know, you bring up a good point.

If I were to write up a lightsaber, it'd be about a 3D6 RKA, no range, with about 5 points Piercing (from Dark Champions) on it. That'll let you cut through cruddy stormtrooper armor like it wasn't even there.

[Foxiekins]

Well thanks to the starwars fanatics.

What in the real world can damage def 40 material

Nothing

not even a nuke

when you allow non real effect like AP Pen NND then yes almost anything can damage him.

Comparing a superhero game to the real world is just going to show up inconsistiuece that exist in both champions and the comics.

(can some one tell me about the real world 6d6rka flame thrower, thats one that burns throuh a foot of tempered steel in 1 second. just curious)

Oh, real world...? Falling Damage... Look it up...

[WhammeWhamme]

You know, you bring up a good point.

If I were to write up a lightsaber, it'd be about a 3D6 RKA, no range, with about 5 points Piercing (from Dark Champions) on it. That'll let you cut through cruddy stormtrooper armor like it wasn't even there.

Say what the heck is that?

[lemming]

You know, you bring up a good point.

If I were to write up a lightsaber, it'd be about a 3D6 RKA, no range, with about 5 points Piercing (from Dark Champions) on it. That'll let you cut through cruddy stormtrooper armor like it wasn't even there.
BWA HA HA HA!

Hey Speedball, did some of the non Star Wars stuff help?

[Trebuchet]

What in the real world can damage def 40 material

Nothing

not even a nuke

when you allow non real effect like AP Pen NND then yes almost anything can damage him.

Comparing a superhero game to the real world is just going to show up inconsistiuece that exist in both champions and the comics.

(can some one tell me about the real world 6d6rka flame thrower, thats one that burns throuh a foot of tempered steel in 1 second. just curious)Almost any sizable nuke (15½d6+) will damage 40 DEF. An average roll for a 20d6 point blank nuclear explosion (The Ship Missiles in Star Hero) will leak 12 BODY through.

You're right, a 6d6 RKA "flamethrower" would be a plasma jet. I'd rate a real military-type flamethrower as a 2d6 RKA Continuous Uncontrolled. It sets things on fire, like people, and they burn to death over several seconds. It certainly wouldn't burn through a bank vault or other armor.

[Doc Tough]

I would suggest gravity and rides through the upper atmosphere from space.

[incrdbil]

Oh heck, make it easy. Lightsabers are a multipower. Missiel Reflection, killing attack, and about 1" of tunneling vs a very high Defense.

now, back to real world things: in the city, their are plenty of hazardous chemicals. Maybe have some liqified oxygen or Nitrogen being transferred ram into the guy. (Move throug damage,the the attack above). Or have him down by the docks and have a LNG ship explode. That should do it.

Stolen shipment of c4. Burning Oil refinery. Keep dropping indistrial power cables/transformers on him.

[freakboy6117]

a bit looney tunes but drop a safe/piano/sperm whale and bowl of petunias on him from a great height

run him down with a car packed with improvised explosives.

suicide bombers( probably a couple of dozen) wearing shaped explosive vest run up and hug him

[WhammeWhamme]

Almost any sizable nuke (15½d6+) will damage 40 DEF. An average roll for a 20d6 point blank nuclear explosion (The Ship Missiles in Star Hero) will leak 12 BODY through.

You're right, a 6d6 RKA "flamethrower" would be a plasma jet. I'd rate a real military-type flamethrower as a 2d6 RKA Continuous Uncontrolled. It sets things on fire, like people, and they burn to death over several seconds. It certainly wouldn't burn through a bank vault or other armor.

Since a nuke is Energy, nothing physical, including a Terminal velocity fall, is likely to do BODY to 40/30 rDEF.

And Energy wise, you need to pull out nukes.

Yet enough dynamite, or a high speed collision, could KO him.

[gewing]

I've always liked the 130 lb shaped charge warhead on the maverick missile. It should even penetrate an Abrams, and the blast effect is larger than a normal anti-tank missile.

Hellfire is supposed to penetrate about 1 meter of steel, so about 1.5-2 times that of the 120mm smoothbore.




Anything you think would be represented by a 3.5d6 Rka or higher, with 3 doses of Armor Piercing...

That would be an Active Cost of at least 137 points...

Cheaper to just go for a 7d6 Rka or higher, ignoring the Armor Piercing...

That's an Active Cost of at least 105 points... But the first option would be more likely to hurt him statistically, however...

What could be represented by this...? Hmmm... What about a projectile with a shaped explosive charge in its tip...?

[gewing]

I would use something similar as the writeup for the vibro-blades as in Gamma WOrld and others that use a vibrating force field.




I think you give them too much credit. They're just an energy attack.

[Trebuchet]

Since a nuke is Energy, nothing physical, including a Terminal velocity fall, is likely to do BODY to 40/30 rDEF.That doesn't follow. Damage is damage. Even if the 40/30 rDEF is vs. Energy, a nuke* will still cause damage to the individual in question. In fact if it's even a 12d6+ RKA, against only 30 rED he'll still take 9 BODY or more on an average roll. Even most tough bricks won't be happy after losing 9+ BODY.

* And a good case could be made that a nuclear explosion has both Energy and Physical damage components: Radiation, thermal wave, blast wave, radiation. The blast wave, caused by displaced air, is indisputably physical in nature.

[Speedball]

BWA HA HA HA!

Hey Speedball, did some of the non Star Wars stuff help?

Yeah, Lemming, a *few* of the posts--the ones, you know, I asked for? They were helpful. The character in question is actually my PC from a game in which there aren't any heroes yet--we're the first ones. So I was just curious what would happen if he just sort of started out stopping street crimes as a tangible way of making a name for himself and gaining some popularity.

Anyway, thanks.

[keithcurtis]

A really good stun mutliple and an excellent to hit roll with a couple of high powered machine guns could conceivably knock him out, especially if the firers coordinate. Once he's unconscious, you pinch his nose and mouth shut and suffocate him.

For that matter, what's his strength? Use the Spidey/Juggernaut approach and bury him in 40 feet of wet concrete.

Keith "seeking the simplest solution" Curtis

[Superskrull]

Yeah, Lemming, a *few* of the posts--the ones, you know, I asked for? They were helpful. The character in question is actually my PC from a game in which there aren't any heroes yet--we're the first ones. So I was just curious what would happen if he just sort of started out stopping street crimes as a tangible way of making a name for himself and gaining some popularity.

Anyway, thanks.

Street crime is in serious trouble if a guy like that is opposing it. He's more or less immune to drive-bys, baseball bats and stab wounds. I'd watch out for the collateral damage though. People frown on impromptu urban renewal.

I'm picturing Rage from his inital Avengers appearances. Even the rocket launcher they got from the Kingpin only staggered him. He pulled a Sampson maneuver on a crack house and everything.

[Foxiekins]

Again... Falling... Terminal Velocity is a 30d6 impact... That's 30 points of Body damage on average, but it can do up to 60 Body... Average damage wouldn't hurt him, but oh would it make him sweat... So my advice is toss him out of an Airplane, or a very high skyscraper...

Or have someone blow chunks out of a building, and he's under the rubble when it falls... Same principle in reverse, working better if the rubble is fairly heavy, like large chunks of concrete...

Or a safe... A safe or a vault is generally VERY massive... Or have him be under a large plane when its landing gear gives way... Also, look at Highway Accidents... A head on Collision at Highway speeds is a relative velocity of over 100 MPH...

[Wanderer]

Street crime is in serious trouble if a guy like that is opposing it. He's more or less immune to drive-bys, baseball bats and stab wounds. I'd watch out for the collateral damage though. People frown on impromptu urban renewal.

I'm picturing Rage from his inital Avengers appearances. Even the rocket launcher they got from the Kingpin only staggered him. He pulled a Sampson maneuver on a crack house and everything.

A guy/gal like the one discussed here, with a suit of characteristics and powers proportionate to his/her Defense one is probably clocking in at 700+ pts. and is quite wasted chasing down petty crooks. The character would be either at the start of its superheroing/vigilante career (almost all high-powered superheroes start with street crime, and then refocus on global matters, unless the circumstances of their origin give them a a different kind of enemy from the start), or happens to be nearby when the bank robbery is in progress (the way Superman, She-Hulk, Quasar or Thor generally focus on cosmic stuff, but will lend a hand if a violent crime is in progress in their presence).

This only highlights why being a bank robber in Marvel NYC is the riskiest profession in the universe: you just don't risk having the street-level urban vigilantes after you, you constantly run the risk of going under the feet of any of the upzillion Avengers/FF/Secret Defenders/X-Something going shopping in their off-day (and of course, a couple powerful superheroes pairing to stop a sudden violent crime while on a date or mutual relaxation stroll is the classic way comic authors use to spice budding romance/friendships sequences with a little action).

[lemming]

A guy/gal like the one discussed here, with a suit of characteristics and powers proportionate to his/her Defense one is probably clocking in at 700+ pts. and is quite wasted chasing down petty crooks.
Ok. I'll agree with the petty crook part, but when I wrote up Scales he was 275 points with 40/40 2x hard and 75 STR.

[WhammeWhamme]

That doesn't follow. Damage is damage. Even if the 40/30 rDEF is vs. Energy, a nuke* will still cause damage to the individual in question. In fact if it's even a 12d6+ RKA, against only 30 rED he'll still take 9 BODY or more on an average roll. Even most tough bricks won't be happy after losing 9+ BODY.

* And a good case could be made that a nuclear explosion has both Energy and Physical damage components: Radiation, thermal wave, blast wave, radiation. The blast wave, caused by displaced air, is indisputably physical in nature.

Erm... I meant that a nuke was about the only thing that WOULD do BODY on an average roll, and it's Energy damage, not physical, so he's pretty much immune to physical damage. Maybe not if you squash him between two colliding planets or something, I guess...

The blast wave effect on one wouldn't break 20d6, so again, nothing physical can do the harm.

So, we take it as 'he cannot be physically hurt. He can be melted by nuke hits, and he can feel pain when hit by truly massive attacks'.

[Wanderer]

Ok. I'll agree with the petty crook part, but when I wrote up Scales he was 275 points with 40/40 2x hard and 75 STR.

Ah, then he is a pretty specialized brick. Well, if you severely limit brick tricks and additional defenses (or give some limitations), it can be done.

[Arkham]

More to the point, lightsabres aren't REAL WORLD.

Yeah, umm, I missed that part.
And in doing so somehow derailed the thread....
w00t! My first thread derail! ( And I try to hard to stay on topic )

[Speedball]

A guy/gal like the one discussed here, with a suit of characteristics and powers proportionate to his/her Defense one is probably clocking in at 700+ pts. and is quite wasted chasing down petty crooks. The character would be either at the start of its superheroing/vigilante career (almost all high-powered superheroes start with street crime, and then refocus on global matters, unless the circumstances of their origin give them a a different kind of enemy from the start), or happens to be nearby when the bank robbery is in progress (the way Superman, She-Hulk, Quasar or Thor generally focus on cosmic stuff, but will lend a hand if a violent crime is in progress in their presence).

This is precisely what's going to happen--the character (Hurricane) is helping out on street level crime at first because that's the level on which he's thinking, currently--he understands that he needs to help people and if it's right in front of him, well--why not? In time, when he begins to understand just how powerful he is and just how much he can change the world, he'll expand his actions. We've just started playing; I'm sure the GM will be throwing things at us that will make us (or at least our characters) cry like little babies.

[Wanderer]

This is precisely what's going to happen--the character (Hurricane) is helping out on street level crime at first because that's the level on which he's thinking, currently--he understands that he needs to help people and if it's right in front of him, well--why not? In time, when he begins to understand just how powerful he is and just how much he can change the world, he'll expand his actions. We've just started playing; I'm sure the GM will be throwing things at us that will make us (or at least our characters) cry like little babies.

heh. In no short order, in the (very rare) lulls between stomping down rogue government conspiracies puppeting Ctulhu cultists about to releasing biological WMD, repelling invading armies from imperialistic future timelines, preventing lovesick alien Gods of War from causing half the galaxy's stars go nova as a present to the Lady of Terminus, and stopping Mechanon from causing worldwide stack market crashes, you will look back to the time when putting the city's Yakuza oyabun to jail was the highmark of heroism, and think it was so simple back then. With great power, comes an helluva job schedule ;)

[lemming]

Ah, then he is a pretty specialized brick. Well, if you severely limit brick tricks and additional defenses (or give some limitations), it can be done.
Scales was a character written up in 83 or 84. He was strong and tough (with several specialized defenses). What more did you need? ;)

[Vorsch]

Oh, real world...? Falling Damage... Look it up...

I admit a 200mph fall would kill anything.

oh and the damage is dependant on characters spd rating (technically)

having a mountain land on you is obviously small potataties compared to "terminal velocity" as describer in the highly physically accurate Hero system.

[Foxiekins]

Hurrah for Defenestration...!!!!!

[Vorsch]

Hurrah for Defenestration...!!!!!

find me a window.....

[Foxiekins]

find me a window.....

Mmmmmm.... *High* window...!!!

[Vorsch]

by my calculations no window on earth would be high enough, even escape velocity is only quarter the speed id need for 30d6 damage.

which sounds reasonable to me, after all 30dc is the same as being hit by a nuke ( numerous threads rate nukes as around 10d6killing explosion.)

[Speedball]

by my calculations no window on earth would be high enough, even escape velocity is only quarter the speed id need for 30d6 damage

To make things more complicated, the character can fly, so unless he's already unconscious, it's going to be tough to get him to fall...

[Mortuorum`]

What in the real world can damage def 40 material

Nothing

not even a nuke
Depends on the nuke. A Hiroshima-class (20-kiloton) Uranium fission bomb probably wouldn't, assuming he had the requisite Immunity to Radiation Life Support. A sufficiently large deuterium-tritium fusion bomb would certainly do well in excess of 40 ED. While there's no theoretical upper limit to the size of a fusion bomb, the largest one ever actually detonated had a yield of 50 megatons. Given that the US H-Bomb test at Bikini Atoll (a "mere" 13.6 megatons) "vapourised two islands, half of a third one, and millions of tonnes of sand, coral and sea and plant life" and left a crater with an 1800-meter diamater(Guiness Book of World Records (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=58180)), I'm going to guess a 50-megaton device would probably do the trick.


(can some one tell me about the real world 6d6rka flame thrower, thats one that burns throuh a foot of tempered steel in 1 second. just curious)A flamethrower wouldn't touch the character, except that they'd probably asphyxiate if they needed to breathe. An arcwelder or similar high-energy device might do the trick, but even that's questionable against 30rPD, 2xHD.

[Vorsch]

If one dc equates roughly to double energy then even a 50mt nuke might have problems with 40rdef, that a billion times stonger than tempered steel.

in simple terms the nuke is equvalent to 2kg of tnt (relatively speaking), how far wouls steel statue have to be from the epicenter of a 2kg TNT blast to aviod damage, couple of meters? size of a bomb casing.

Lets not forget resistant def comes very cheap in champions, people often misinterperet the level of def they have in real world terms, not helped by the somewhat exagerater def of listed vehicles (40def for a tank, a real tank is rather generous and means only nukes could even hope to scratch it, reality i feel difffers on this subject)

[Mortuorum`]

If one dc equates roughly to double energy then even a 50mt nuke might have problems with 40rdef, that a billion times stonger than tempered steel.I understand your point, but don't completely agree. Allow me to elaborate. :)

I did a little more research and realized that -- while it's not as explosive as I initially thought -- TNT still packs quite a whallop. I estimated that a pound would do about 6d6 damage. A modern 10-megaton nuke by definition does damage equivalent to 20 trillion pounds of TNT. (10 megatons x 1,000,000 megatons/ton x 2000 tons per pound = 20,000,000,000 pounds). 20 trillion is roughly 2^34, so (logically) 10 megatons of TNT would do 6+34 = 40d6. Just barely enough to stress 40 DEF on an average roll. (A larger nuke would certainly do the trick, assuming the target was fairly close to ground zero.)

Lo and behold, in my searching, I stumbled across this chart (http://fitz.jsr.com/roleplay/hero/sci-fi/gaeanreach/dc_table.html). The author postulates that TNT does more damage than I credit; he would have a pound (~500 grams) doing 16d6, and concludes that 8 Mt would do 50d6 -- certainly enough to put a hurting on our 40 DEF brick.

(I'm going to assume his results are more accurate than mine; after all, he has an official-looking chart.) :D

Now, you definitely have a valid argument regarding 40 DEF on a vehicle. That's just plain wrong. I'd generalize and say that Hero vehicle DEFs are unrealistically high.


in simple terms the nuke is equvalent to 2kg of tnt (relatively speaking), how far wouls steel statue have to be from the epicenter of a 2kg TNT blast to aviod damage, couple of meters? size of a bomb casing.Uh no, that's 2 kilotons, not two kilograms. Huge difference.

[Dauntless]

I think the Hero System faces the problem of damage abstraction. What I mean by that is that there is not a direct correlate between the amount of energy (kinetic or otherwise) and how much damage something does. This problem is exacerbated because the damage of different damage objects does not scale properly with each other (for example, terminal velocity should not be an absolute DC, it should be related to the objects mass). In my own hobby game system, I define damage as the total state change in an object. In living beings, this is tissue damage. In inorganic things, it is the degradation of the state of the object (the object's integrity).

So damage is therefore based on the work available to change from the initial working state of an object, into another state. In other words, energy is the basis for determining damage. But that's not the end of the story. You also have to consider things like penetration (Force/Area), the amount (mass) of matter that is affected, as well as how deep or wide the damaged area is (getting impaled by an icepick doesn't damage alot of tissue, but it gets to very critical tissue).

But getting back to the amount of energy done in an attack, energy is energy. Energy has the capability to do work. Work has the capability of changing the state of an object. Ergo, the more energy a damage object has, the greater the Delta of the State Change. In layman's terms, more energy = more damage. However, this is only the base damage...you then have to think about all the other factors I mentioned earlier (for example, if all the energy is dispersed over a large area, then you get a massive superficial wound like a road rash....but if you concentrate all of it at one point, then it gets to internal organs).

Energy calculations are based purely on physics. However, quantifying the other aspects is open to debate. For example, it was thought for awhile by many experts that bullets did their damage through hydrostatic shock..,but this theory is now doubtful and the main indicator of terminal ballistics is the size of the wound channel the bullet makes. The hydrostatic shock people argued that high velocity bullets with a higher kinetic energy than a slower but heavier bullet would do more damage thanks to the hydrostatic shock (hydrostatic shock is a temporary cavity that swells up inside the target, much like dropping a pebble in a pond creates wave ripples). However, further studies showed that the larger diameter bullet caused greater tissue damage because it destroyed a greater volume of tissue as it traveled through the body.

In physical damage, we deal with kinetic energy, and the simple formula is .5*mass*velocity^2. As you can see, as velocity goes up, we have an exponential factor. A semi-truck going 60mph has 4 times the energy as a same mass truck going 30mph. If our target is a simple object, then we can easily use physics to determine damage by calculating how much of the material can be penetrated and ablated. But once the complexity of the object increases, then figuring out the damage gets difficult.

What I'm basically trying to say is that "damage" is a combination of several factors. The total energy of the damage object gives us a base to work with. From this, we can derive penetration. Depending on other factors of the damage object (like whether its a cutting, impaling, crushing, tearing, heat, radiation, form of damage), then we can further define how the damage object changes the state of the target.

Maybe after this explanation, people will better understand why I say that the Hero System is not as detailed and concrete as it could be (which is why I don't like Hero for settings that require uber realism). The Hero System definitely abstracts a lot of its concepts of damage. I'd say since you're playing a superhero game, don't worry too much about trying to get it too realistic. The Superhero genre isn't supposed to be realistic. When you start doing that, you'll run into inconsistencies.

[Hyper-Man]

...snip...(for example, terminal velocity should not be an absolute DC, it should be related to the objects mass)

Actually, density and aerodynamics are more important than raw mass.

...snip...

Maybe after this explanation, people will better understand why I say that the Hero System is not as detailed and concrete as it could be (which is why I don't like Hero for settings that require uber realism). The Hero System definitely abstracts a lot of its concepts of damage. I'd say since you're playing a superhero game, don't worry too much about trying to get it too realistic. The Superhero genre isn't supposed to be realistic. When you start doing that, you'll run into inconsistencies.

I haven't bought or played many different game systems in the past 10 years but I am curious what system does realism better than HERO on the Heroic scale? I know it's not D&D20, since when compared to Body, level based hit points are even more of an abstraction of both toughness AND damage avoidance skill. I remember seeing systems that had tables on top of tables for determining wound damage for different caliber bullets and hit location and such but when combined with the afformentioned level based hit point system they seem just a little out of whack to me. Any system that gets more detailed than HERO with all the optional combat rules in play has got to have very very slow combats that would rival many wargames in complexity.

:)
HM

[Dauntless]

Actually, density and aerodynamics are more important than raw mass.

You're absolutely right. I was envisioning two spheres of equal size, but one weighing more than the other (in essence, being more dense). The heavier sphere would carry more kinetic energy when it hit the ground. But perhaps more important than even density is the aerodynamic factor. The aerodynamics actually determines the terminal velocity

V = sqrt(2W/Cd*R*a)

Where
V = Terminal Velocity
W = weight (mass)
Cd = coefficient of drag
r = density
a = acceleration (earth gravity of 9.8m/s^2)

So mass, volume, and drag (aerodynamics) are all factors. So obviously, Terminal Velocity can not be a static damage class. Assuming the rules meant a man sized object does 30d6 of damage, then you can extrapolate with the above formula.