Higher-point-level Fantasy

[Michael Hopcroft]

I keep going back to some of the examples of fantasy I've been watching lately and wondering how to do a fantasy game in which the characters start at a very high level -- possibly even Superheroic. But I'm wondering whether the heroic standards of fantasy break down at that kind of point level.

A 350-point sorcerer, for example, would have access to a wide variety of powerful spells. The thing, of course, is that they will be facing superheroic-level challenges as well. A 350-point warrior might mow down orcs by teh hundreds, but fi he has to take on a mid-level Demon Prince he's certain to be tested.

I imagine that once a D&D campaign gets to about 12th level or so, the characters get into the Ultra-Heroic range by fantasy standards; everything they do is the stuff of legends. without carrying the D&D paralell too far, if you want to do a camapignt that is truly epic in scope, even within a published setting that is intially built around less powerful characters, is this a good way to go about it?

What other things does a GM have to consider when running a Fantasy campaign for very powerful heroes?

[CourtFool]

Careful. A subject like this could get you flamed. A lot of GMs seem to think you should take power away from the PCs, not give it to them.

This (http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=119#tips) may be of some help.

All of my campaigns have been 'high level'. What I do is focus more on interaction with NPCs and less on combat. When comat does come up, I let the PCs shine and mop up the opposition easily. Except for the big bosses which I give comprable power to.

[garadan]

I think is all to do with how you play the game, I am currently running a character in a fantasy hero campaign based in the D&D mystara world. We have been playing regularly for over 8 years and have charactors in excess of 360 points. We have converted the D&D magic system into the game and have a driud and mage of 7th level. We maintain a good balance of skill vs power in the game because we roleplay for one and ensure that a good training structure is in place for all percieved classes. So if I want to raise OCV with a weapon, or increase a stat it costs time and/or money. We are running a game were dex ranges from 14-21 an speed from 2-5 (only one character at 5 speed and has a good rational why). Point dont make power, how you spend them does.

[Viper3220]

How many points would you guys reccomend for converting level 14 D&D D20 characters to Hero?

[Captain Obvious]

It would totally depend on the character. I'm more of a convert-the-object kind of guy, as opposed to a convert-the-system guy. Some characters at 14th level may have more points in Hero than others.

[Viper3220]

How about a level 5/9 rogue/assassin?

[Captain Obvious]

I would need to see the complete character, with all feats, skills, and class abilities outlined. Like I said, I convert the object (the character in this case) rather than the system (ie a way to convert all rogue/assassins generically).

[Viper3220]

Rogue/Assassin 5/9

Str 16
Dex 26 (I got a permanency cat's grace and it's 30 if that matters)
Con 16
Int 22 (26 through permanency Fox's Cunning)
Wis 12
Cha 18

Feats
Analyze Unliving
The Stare Will save DC22 (Presence Attack?)
Exotic Wpn Proficiency Katana
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

Class Abilities
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge II
Death Attack
Hide in Plain Sight
+4 saves vs poison
Poison use
Sneak Attack 8d6

Spells
Disguise self
Feather fall
Jump
Obscuring Mist
Sleep
Alter Self
Cat's Grace
Fox's Cunning
Illusory Script
Invisibility, Greater
Spider Climb
Deep Slumber
Glibness (+30 bluff check for lying)
Darkness, Deeper
Misdirection
Nondetection
Pass Without Trace
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Dimension Door
Locate Creature
Modify Memory

Skills
Rank/Total Skill

Appraise 3/10
Balance 5/15
Bluff 14/20
Climb 12/15
Decipher Script 3/10
Diplomacy 6/10
Disable Device 16/25
Disguise 4/8
Escape Artist 15/25
Forgery 3/10
Gather Information 9/15
Hide 16/26
Intimidate 16/20
Jump 16/21
Knowledge Monsters 3/10
Listen 16/19 (+2 elf bonus)
Move Silently 16/26
Open Lock 10/20
Search 16/25 (+2 elf bonus)
Sense Motive 11/12
Sleight of Hand 13/25
Spot 16/19
Swim 1/4
Tumble 15/25
Use Magic Device 1/5


Oh and let me know if you want me to include what exactly the spells do if you don't already know.

[Rage]

include skill ranks, that is quite important.

[Vondy]

Higher point totals don't necessarily mean godlike power. It can also mean highly skilled and broad characters.

[Blue Jogger]

Ok, lets take it to the extreme. Let's set the dial to Infinity and lets see what happens.

Power
Can the heroes do infinite level of damage? If so, can the villians avoid that damage or even worse reflect that damage? Maybe you don't want to throw 12d6 RKA if there's a chance of destroying buildings in the process.

Can the muscleman really lift mountains and throw them? Bend the course of mighty rivers? Again, wielding that power has lots of hidden dangers of squishing (or in this case drowning) people he cares about.

There are things that infinite power might not fix. People still die of old age, there are still famine and disease. You might have the Kill Everything Spell/Sword/Punch, but can you make a difference where the players want to. Superman can stop all the criminals, but he can't cure poverty (well, he could make coal into diamonds, but eventually the diamond market collapses before poverty is cured).

Scope/Area
How big of an area can you affect? I had a mage, who had the ability to warm an area, and then discovered that the area of effect could be an entire city. (No, it wasn't in Hero.) The city was prevented from the worse winter ever, because my mage was cold, warmed the entire city, and went back to sleep. It was an incredibly minor spell, but it was the scope that made it amazing.

Range
How far away are your effects? While you are in this city, what about the other cities? Even with infinite power, if you can't be in two places at once and stuff happens outside your range. Then you risk being spread too thin. If you have infinite range (and no range penalities), then the players stop moving and can stay on Mount Olympus.

Archers, if their arrows travel farther than mage spells, can cause problems for mages who aren't immune to arrows.

Duration
This is a tricky one. If your Mage's spells do not have a duration or noticable END cost, they can go on for basically forever. This can turn a minor effect into a major one. This is another case of infinity that is alot harder to check since it is usually the most minor spells that can be run forever.

Non-mages sometimes fall into this. A so-so fighter that can fight all day and all night is going to be quickly better than a whole bunch of tired out excellent fighters that can't move. An assassin that can be perfectly stealthy can wipe out an army while they sleep if he doesn't get tired.

[Captain Obvious]

Rogue/Assassin 5/9



Well, I don't have a whole lot of time right now, and I won't have any more until next weekend or so, but a few quick notes right off the bat:

Characteristics usually translate straight over, with Wis becoming EGO and Cha becoming PRE. I don't know off the top of my head how 3.5 is dealing with scores higher than 18, so you may be justified in raising them a few more points.

With these feats, I'd say (again, off the top of my head) that you could get some Combat Luck and/or the Evasive talent from Fantasy Hero. Deadly Blow for your Sneak Attack...maybe buy it again for the Death attack (I'm not real sure how this one works in 3.5 either). The rest of your feats are either Weapon Proficiency or Two-weapon Fighting.

Without getting into how high each skill should be, I'll say that Balance and Tumble translate into Acrobatics, Bluff into Persuasion, Climb into Climbing, Decipher Script into Cryptography, Diplomacy into High Society, Disable Device and Open Lock into Security Systems, Disguise Sleight of Hand and Forgery don't change, Escape Artist into Contortionist, Gather Information into Streetwise, Hide and Search into Concealment, Intimidate into Interrogation, Jump maybe becomes an extra hex or two of Leaping, Knowledge Monsters becomes KS: Monsters, Listen becomes a bonus to Hearing Perception, Move Silently is Stealth, Spot becomes a bonus to Sight Perception, Swim at that level is at best an extra hex of Swimming, and Use Magic Device is a Power Skill.

I won't go into the spells for now. You can get all that from Killer Shrike's website at http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/conversion3e.shtml

For that matter, you can get everything you need really. I didn't even need to type as much as I have. It's a pretty good website for D&Ders trying to become Heros....

[austenandrews]

Much depends on how the 350 points are spent. In my last fantasy game the PCs got up to the 250-300pt. range. But I ran it in the Toolkit mode - I built powers for them and then told them which ones they could pick from given whatever happened to be their present experience (not XP) and what teachers were available to instruct them. Since the players didn't build any of the powers, I could balance them however I liked (though I confess I failed in one or two conspicuous cases). The players never even knew what their point totals were (and in fact they were not equal in actual points, though I pretended like they were).

Yeah, they mowed down standard bad guys with impunity, but that was a given in the design of the campaign. I had no trouble coming up with monsters to challenge them. I was also careful to leave some conspicuous weaknesses in their magic abilities. They might turn a pack of giant wolves into mulch, but the Shadow Harbinger who sent the wolves against them was immune to most of their attacks and they were well-advised not to give chase. I designed a lot of powers to affect vast areas of the landscape, so that they fought ghosts & monsters for one or two weeks' travel before they actually reached the "boss villains" at the end. And generally speaking their defenses were nowhere near "superhero" level, so they couldn't get lax around hgiher-powered opponents.

Among normal people they were "legendary" except that their kind ("Hallowed Peers") were not exactly uncommon. A remote villager might not see one in his lifetime, but he'd probably know someone who had. Someone in a reasonable-sized town or along a decent road was almost certain to see several in his lifetime, probably on a regular basis. In other words, they weren't revered as gods. They were more equivalent to sports celebrities. That kept the tone of the game a bit more down-to-earth despite their insane power level.

Of course role-playing was critical, but that pretty much goes without saying. To run that power level in a hack-and-slash game would have gotten out of hand very quickly.

[Viper3220]

Now would you say translated 14th level characters would have the Legendary Status? below Legendary status or superhuman? (I think of superhuman as epic D&D d20 characters so I like to think of 12-20 level D20 characters as legendary) What do you think?

[paigeoliver]

If you really want some examples of HIGH LEVEL Fantasy then try to dig up some modules for the old basic D&D Master's Set. Those were modules for characters of around level 30.

Or, to go one further, if you want to see Fantasy Superheroes, dig up the old stuff for the Basic D&D Immortals set, to see 1000 point fantasy characters in action.

D&D characters convert to hero at WILDLY different point totals. Also, forget about converting the system anyway, keep the feel, if you are going to convert the system than you might as well play the original system.

Level 14 D&D characters are more like mid-level characters than high level ones, 20+ are the high level characters.

Just plain 75+75 Hero characters are A LOT more well rounded and effective than beginning D&D characters. Heck, a level 1 Basic D&D cleric is probably almost based on negative points (no spells, that WEAK turn undead, combined with religous restrictions and no skills to speak of).

The major FEEL difference between Fantasy Hero at high level and D&D at high level is hit points. A high level D&D character might very well have 100 hit points (in Hero a normal human has like 8-10 body, in D&D a normal human has like 4-5 hit points), if you directly converted THAT aspect of the game you would end up with characters with 200 body.

And also, D&D armor makes you harder to hit, Hero armor subtracts damage. Not a lot of differences at low levels, but at high levels you are going to need to come up with SOMETHING to keep your wizard and thief archetypes from getting instakilled by every fireball that comes along. I suggest force fields for the wizards and HIGH DCVs combined with out and out combat luck for the high powered thieves.

[Viper3220]

I just want to convert my characters to hero and not have them be less skilled or worse in combat all of the sudden. I want them to keep basically what skills they have and be just as good in hero (if not better because now dex is your to hit (ocv) instead of strength) as they were in D&D D20 (a system I'm starting to dislike alot)

[sbarron]

I just want to convert my characters to hero and not have them be less skilled or worse in combat all of the sudden. I want them to keep basically what skills they have and be just as good in hero (if not better because now dex is your to hit (ocv) instead of strength) as they were in D&D D20 (a system I'm starting to dislike alot)I think everyone understands what you are looking for, it's just a lot of work. HERO is different than D&D in that each game scales differently according to how the GM wants to run it. As a result, one GM might stat your character out to 200 points, and another might think he would be more like 400. Both are equally valid.

Since that's the case, maybe you can go to one of the D&D to Hero conversion sites on the internet (I think one was mentioned earlier) and see what you think it comes out to. I started to do it Hero Designer, but then gave up, as I quickly realized that I would have to make a lot of judgement calls about how to translate things that would take up a lot of time.

Here is a website that lists a point total based on level...

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/DD3e.htm

I hope this helps.

[Darkness]

The major FEEL difference between Fantasy Hero at high level and D&D at high level is hit points. A high level D&D character might very well have 100 hit points (in Hero a normal human has like 8-10 body, in D&D a normal human has like 4-5 hit points), if you directly converted THAT aspect of the game you would end up with characters with 200 body. Right, I'd convert large hp amounts by giving the character Combat Luck and similar powers as well as a lot of Body.

Well, unless they're primarily based on something like race (e.g., tyrannosaurus).

[Black Rose]

Higher point totals don't necessarily mean godlike power. It can also mean highly skilled and broad characters.

This is so the truth. Before you start out, make sure each character has a Theme. Yes, it does deserve the capitalization. Then, make sure no Theme has overlap on anyone else's, except in the most basic of ways. "I'm an iron-thewed, axe-wielding barbarian who can stare down a dire wolf and sneers at your decadent over-civilized nobles." and "I'm the second son of a march baron and have dedicated my life to being the best defence for my people that I can." are both warriors, but there is little chance there will be much shtick crowding.

Once you've done both of these, you can be fairly confident that any improvements to your characters will improve everyone's game time. Remember, just because you have more points doesn't mean you've become a world-shaking butt-kicker. Skills and contacts can suck up a lot of points; trust me, I know this all too well. :rolleyes:

Set some good baseline campaign parameters, and some good highest-point levels, and don't let anyone get to the top in too many places. When everyone in your group is equally capable in something as the guy whose Theme it is, you've gone too long. Start anew and reexperience the joy of struggle.

[Captain Obvious]

When everyone in your group is equally capable in something as the guy whose Theme it is, you've gone too long. Start anew and reexperience the joy of struggle.

Nah...just raise your bar every now and then. If your strongman starts out limited to 20, and everyone else to 15, at some point, it would not be ridiculous to raise the STR limit to 25 and 20.

[Black Rose]

Nah...just raise your bar every now and then. If your strongman starts out limited to 20, and everyone else to 15, at some point, it would not be ridiculous to raise the STR limit to 25 and 20.

Well yes, but I was thinking more "Thedrik the alley-skulking thief is now just as capable a spell-caster as Molanthris the Arch-Warlock." This is a bad thing. Sharing the same stat as the guy whose Theme it is is fine; he's probably got a number of skills, "non-power" powers, and other abilities to keep primacy. But when you can effectively cover another character's Theme, and do it with little to no problem, you're poaching.

JMO, of course.

[paigeoliver]

Well yes, but I was thinking more "Thedrik the alley-skulking thief is now just as capable a spell-caster as Molanthris the Arch-Warlock." This is a bad thing. Sharing the same stat as the guy whose Theme it is is fine; he's probably got a number of skills, "non-power" powers, and other abilities to keep primacy. But when you can effectively cover another character's Theme, and do it with little to no problem, you're poaching.

JMO, of course.

I'm not even sure if I would allow a Fantasy character to just start learning spells, if the characters original concept wasn't a Mage, Druid, Priest, Necromancer, etc, then I just don't see them learning spells. Having the XP is a lot different than having the years of time needed for the training and apprenticeship.

The areas I would most see issues with overlap is between the various non-spellcaster archetypes.

If you are already a mighty warrior then it probably won't take a whole lot of points to become a master thief as well (and vise versa). After all, the mighty warrior probably already has a really good Dex and Pre, just a matter of spending 21 or so points on whatever classic "thieve's skills" that he doesn't already have. And the master thief only need toss a dozen points or so between Str and Con, and maybe buy a few combat skill levels and he is toe to toe with the mighty warrior.

But for mighty warrior to become a wizard as well is going to require a large investment in Ego and Int, Magic skill, and then the spells themselves. A much, much bigger investment in points.

[Kristopher]

Point totals can be strange, sometimes.

Trying to jumpstart my progress on my on-again, off-again fantasy novel, I started putting characters into HERO. One of them came out to almost 700 points. Sheesh.


As for "stepping on another character's Theme", well, that's always been one of my biggest issues with the class and level based systems -- they end up defining a character by some kind of formula-fiction role he has to fit.

One of the most refreshing things about playing a game in which characters can pretty much all fight and all cast spells and all do useful noncombat things is that the players do character-based things to define their characters, instead of doing stat-based things.

[Ki-rin]

I keep going back to some of the examples of fantasy I've been watching lately and wondering how to do a fantasy game in which the characters start at a very high level -- possibly even Superheroic. But I'm wondering whether the heroic standards of fantasy break down at that kind of point level.
The short answer is "Of course you can."

Let's not forget that the "reality" the first FRPGs like DND and the Arduin Grimore were designed to simulate was that of Epic Fantasy like that of JRR Tolkien. There Morgoth AKA Melkor was one of the Valar, a god, defeated by a Human (Beren Half-Hand) and an Elf (his wife Luthien (sp?)), then his successor was a transformed Balrog named Sauron who inherited most of Morgoth's power and become even more powerful than the demi-god that he already was. (All the Balrogs and at least some of the wizards, including Gandalf and Saruman, were originally members of the demi-god race Maiar. Some, including Sauron, defected to join Morgoth in the First Age and became the Balrogs. Sauron was the most powerful of these and Morgoths chief lieutenant.) Then +another+ union of "only mortal" races defeated pumped-up demigod Sauron after a _long_ campaign (10's of thousands of years from the Fall of Morgoth to the Fall of Sauron).

"Named" characters in Fantasy like this ARE superheroic. Aragorn lived ~650 years and was capable of feats of Str, Con+END, and skill far beyond anything that makes rational sense (Helm's Deep, etc). "One such fighter is worth 100 lesser Men". And so were many lesser characters of the books.

In such a "reality", the equivalent of HERO "agent" characters are less than useless exercises in dice rolling. When fighting such as Boromir, Gimli, Legolas, etc such "kobolds and orcs" only purpose was to exhaust Our Heros and _maybe_ get lucky and actually do some damage. "Accurately" modeling this is why high level DnD characters have such outrageous abilities and hit points.

In HERO terms, such fighters definitely will kill a "normal" with one average blow, have Str in the 25-30 range (the _monster's_ OTOH can be +way+ stronger), and/or have outrageous CVs, and/or Dex's, and/or SPDs, and/or skills such that low level Brick, high level MA, and low level Speedster, Arch Types all definitely fit the genre.


A 350-point sorcerer, for example, would have access to a wide variety of powerful spells. The thing, of course, is that they will be facing superheroic-level challenges as well. A 350-point warrior might mow down orcs by teh hundreds, but fi he has to take on a mid-level Demon Prince he's certain to be tested.
...And in Tolkien, bitter experience had taught that magic was so powerful that to overuse it risked destroying Middle Earth and possibly even Valinor (the home of the gods) so both the Bad (tm) and Good (tm) magic users were very circumspect in its use. (RoleMaster Law's adaptation of LoTR made Sauron a 35th level Sorcerer with specials added.) Etc, etc.

"Accurately" modeling such a magic system is why Lesser Wish and Wish are stables of the DnD world even if the vast majority of PC mages will never be powerful enough to cast one. Etc, etc.

In HERO terms, such mages have _big_ VPP and high degrees of skill with them. Like in Tolkien, other forces have to hold them in check.


I imagine that once a D&D campaign gets to about 12th level or so, the characters get into the Ultra-Heroic range by fantasy standards; everything they do is the stuff of legends. without carrying the D&D paralell too far, if you want to do a camapignt that is truly epic in scope, even within a published setting that is intially built around less powerful characters, is this a good way to go about it?

What other things does a GM have to consider when running a Fantasy campaign for very powerful heroes?
12th level wasn't so "stuff of legends". It was ~20th level when things started to look like Tolkien IME.

Look at how Tolkien did it. Then look at the ways characters like _Astro City_ 's Samaritan and Wing Victory, or _The Watchers_ Doc Manhattan are held in check campaign-wise. Then look at how DC -can't- hold Superman in check, even after "rewriting" him three times or so. Might provide some ideas...

[Colossus]

I think experimented with Superhero level characters in Fantasy Hero or Star Hero settings is an interesting idea. I think of certain great heroes in both genres who are larger than life. If you really want to do a SF game with Jedi-knight types or a Fantasy hero with powerful wizards and one-man army barbarians – this would seem to be the best way for me.

Let’s take Fantasy hero and spend 350 points on a rogue. Sure this rogue could take 3 or 4 “normal” warriors, but that just makes her a larger than life character. A 350 warrior might be able to handle as many a dozen “normals” or a dragon but this is not unheard of.

I believe there would be three things needed to make this work:

1. While NPC do not need to spend points on equipment our heroes would. That keeps balance between the wizard collecting magical items and the warrior grabbing every weapon he can get his hands on.

2. The GM has to remember that his four (or however many characters) have 1,400 points between them at the start. There first encounter can not be six orcs (maybe six ogres).

3. If there are “Super Hero” level Fantasy Heroes, there are “Super Villain” level villains as well. Sure most of the people they meet and conflict with our built on a lot few points, but some few are not.

I think this is a way to do really high fantasy or really ultra-powered SF, a way that really only the Hero System is equipped to handle (unless you start D&D characters at 15 level)!

If you’ve tried this what happened?
if not what do you think?

[Vondy]

Nah...just raise your bar every now and then. If your strongman starts out limited to 20, and everyone else to 15, at some point, it would not be ridiculous to raise the STR limit to 25 and 20.

Wether or not the bar can be raised without impacting the flavor of the game would depend on the style of play the game focused on.