The Stormtrooper Effect

[Steve]

Sometimes known as Inverse Artillery Accuracy or the Mook Factor, the more bad guys that are shooting at a character, the less likely they are to hit him. And even if shot, it doesn't seem to hit an area that significantly handicaps him. This is not as big a problem in superhero games, since agents tend to be much lower in CV than the PCs, but it becomes more of an issue in Heroic-level games.

How have you dealt with protraying this in your campaigns?

[Fox1]

Sometimes known as Inverse Artillery Accuracy or the Mook Factor, the more bad guys that are shooting at a character, the less likely they are to hit him. And even if shot, it doesn't seem to hit an area that significantly handicaps him. This is not as big a problem in superhero games, since agents tend to be much lower in CV than the PCs, but it becomes more of an issue in Heroic-level games.

How have you dealt with protraying this in your campaigns?

Tactics.

Doesn't represent Star Wars, but I have better things to do.

[Champsguy]

+4 DCV, only vs mooks. :)

[Supreme Serpent]

You could reverse the "multiple attacker bonus". -1 OCV for everyone attacking same target for each attacker after the first. 3 Stormtroopers shooting, all at -2 OCV.

[Dr. Anomaly]

You could reverse the "multiple attacker bonus". -1 OCV for everyone attacking same target for each attacker after the first. 3 Stormtroopers shooting, all at -2 OCV.Simple, effective, elegant.

You could even get away with giving the mooks some of their Disad points that way. Call it a Frequently, Slightly Physical Disad. (Physical because if it could be overcome by willpower [a Psych Disad] their training would have got rid of it.)

[Fox1]

+4 DCV, only vs mooks. :)

If one insists on doing that type thing, I like this option best. Best add in Defense Maneuver however.

It allows the ST to be murder against other mooks (reversing the multiple attacker bonus doesn't) while being ineffective against heroes.

There is also the fact that I don't recall anything to indicate that the ST were more dangerous in small numbers.

[RDU Neil]

I really dislike "mook rules" as they don't feel right for my play style.

Given that, how about a simple "Mooks have to roll a 3 to hit" No double damage or crit from the "3"... just that is the only likely hood a hero has of getting hit by a non-important foe.

Again... I don't really recommend this as it grates against what I want from my play experience... but it is simple and easy to implement.

[Hugh Neilson]

Perhaps Our Heroes simply have Combat Luck (something has to protect them, as they have no armor) and a Stormtrooper needs a lucky shot (or a shot from surprise) to have any chance of inflicting any real harm.

[Silbeg]

I really dislike "mook rules" as they don't feel right for my play style.

Given that, how about a simple "Mooks have to roll a 3 to hit" No double damage or crit from the "3"... just that is the only likely hood a hero has of getting hit by a non-important foe.

Again... I don't really recommend this as it grates against what I want from my play experience... but it is simple and easy to implement.
I agree... that being said, what does it matter.

If a mook is just a normal (8-10 DEX, CV3 ), and not a highly trained agent (DEX ~14, OCV 7 with levels, DCV 5), then against the average super (say, DEX 23, DCV 8), they should only be hitting on a 6. This is pretty infrequent (10/216, if I figured it right...), only about 5% of the time. The frequency goes down, with range, increased DCV, etc. So I don't see that mooks have all that much chance, to start with!

Add to that, if they truly are just mooks (not super-agents), they shouldn't have tactics, teamwork, any CSLs, etc., IMHO. Of course, this sorts shouldn't be involved in a super-battle, in any case.

Now, if we are talking Heroic levels, it becomes a little more troublesome. But, if you figure in some PRE attacks, the heroes may be able to scare the mooks enough that they get a OCV penalty?

[Silbeg]

Perhaps Our Heroes simply have Combat Luck (something has to protect them, as they have no armor) and a Stormtrooper needs a lucky shot (or a shot from surprise) to have any chance of inflicting any real harm.
You know, this also makes a lot of sense. Kudos...

[Starwolf]

I seem to remember Obi-Wan telling a young Luke Skywalker "those were no desert raiders...the blast patterns are to precise....it must have been Imperial Storm Troopers" after which Luke jumps in his jalopie and races home to discover the bodies of his aunt and uncle. This and the general fear emanated from everyone that is confronted by STs seems to inidicate an overall compentency that is not reflected in the movies. Even the heroes in the saga displayed this fear/respect, so I believe that STs should be competent and scary for the players (though slightly less competent than the PCs)

[RDU Neil]

I seem to remember Obi-Wan telling a young Luke Skywalker "those were no desert raiders...the blast patterns are to precise....it must have been Imperial Storm Troopers" after which Luke jumps in his jalopie and races home to discover the bodies of his aunt and uncle. This and the general fear emanated from everyone that is confronted by STs seems to inidicate an overall compentency that is not reflected in the movies. Even the heroes in the saga displayed this fear/respect, so I believe that STs should be competent and scary for the players (though slightly less competent than the PCs)

To accomplish this you DO NOT TELL the players about your mook rule. You just use it to keep combat flowing quickly and smoothly. This is when the Wall of Fear and Ignorance (known as a GM Screen to some) is a boon to the players. They don't see how the rules are firmly in their favor... so the story tension remains while maintaining the heroic feel.

Again... not necessarily my play style... but when trying to effectively simulate a genre convention, consistent rules are often a hindrance. Genres don't play by any rules but their own. (This is why I play to a systems strength. Hero games, in many ways, are genres of their own... similart but distinct from the cinematic genres.)

[austenandrews]

I seem to remember Obi-Wan telling a young Luke Skywalker "those were no desert raiders...the blast patterns are to precise....it must have been Imperial Storm Troopers" after which Luke jumps in his jalopie and races home to discover the bodies of his aunt and uncle. This and the general fear emanated from everyone that is confronted by STs seems to inidicate an overall compentency that is not reflected in the movies. Even the heroes in the saga displayed this fear/respect, so I believe that STs should be competent and scary for the players (though slightly less competent than the PCs)
He said they were precise. He didn't say they were accurate. ;)

The Star Wars game had a combat mechanic that was very clunky but allowed for STs to have expert marksmanship while PCs still dodged their shots. At the start of a turn, everyone would declare their actions in reverse Dex order, so the faster characters could react to the slower characters. Then the actions took place in Dex order. As long as the PCs out-Dex'ed the STs, they could sprint safely from cover to cover. The STs would still shoot on their Dex with very high accuracy, but the PCs were never in the line of fire. Interesting solution.

Personally I'm okay with "mook rules." Not that I want mooks to suck, but they rarely act with the same level of coordination and efficiency as major characters. Ten stormtroopers won't all shoot every Phase - you'll have at least one or two who are moving to another position, giving orders, guarding other lines of fire and what-have-you. The chaos of battle. Depending on the circumstances, the percentage of attacking STs will change. If they're waiting in ambush, 100% of them may shoot. If the PCs have covering fire, maybe only 50% of them will shoot. If someone sets off a thermal detonator across the room, only a couple get to fire in the initial chaos. Of course for the sake of drama I always describe it as "a hail of laser bolts missing by inches" but that's just embellishment. :)

Plus, for logistical reasons if nothing else, each stormtrooper won't be acting at his full efficiency. I can't calculate each mook's individual combat modifiers. By rights a large group attacking a small group will be able to arrange themselves to take advantage of Brace, Set, Rapid Fire and all that. But in reality they're all shooting with some common, non-optimized OCV.

Also, logically speaking, the larger the mook squad the more distantly they're dispersed, so the average range penalty goes up.

Notice that the last two handicaps decrease with the number of mooks, which somewhat addresses the issue at hand.

(Or we could just apply a certain Hero design metarule and say that twice the number of mooks only counts as +1 OCV to a single attack. :p)

[Dr. Anomaly]

He said they were precise. He didn't say they were accurate. ;)

The Star Wars game had a combat mechanic that was very clunky but allowed for STs to have expert marksmanship while PCs still dodged their shots.
Hmm. It's been a while since I played d6 Star Wars, but wasn't that the thing they called "Combining"?

[GreyGuardian]

This is when you fudge the die rolls as needed. If a mook gets a solid shot decide if it is dramatically appropriate enough to actually occur, if not look upset and declare a miss. The Screen is your friend - although I prefer the half height ones as they are easier to see over.

[Supreme Serpent]

Again... not necessarily my play style... but when trying to effectively simulate a genre convention, consistent rules are often a hindrance. Genres don't play by any rules but their own. (This is why I play to a systems strength. Hero games, in many ways, are genres of their own... similart but distinct from the cinematic genres.)

Interesting point. Like "D&D" is a seperate genre from "fantasy".

The GM screen/handwaving may be the best way to represent this sort of thing. What is the "job" to the story of the Stormtroopers? Work from that. If it's to chase them into the garbage compactor, have them miss, but keep getting more accurate. If it's to shoot and capture the PC's, let them have normal accuracy.

Play style/what you're trying to simulate makes a big difference.

Some folks want the PC's to kick the door to the hideout down, and dive to the side behind a couch as bullets get sprayed above them. Action sequence continues.

Others want the PC's to kick the door to the hideout down, and get shot full of holes for not sneaking in through the crawlspace and quietly breaking through the floor in the closet, then having a pre-arranged phone call distract the occupants while the PC's slip out of the closet and get into position to surprise the villains.

Both have their place, lots of games will have some of both, but lean more one way or another. Mook rules and bulletproof nudity don't lend themselves to grim, gritty, "realistic" campaigns.

[Dust Raven]

I seem to remember Obi-Wan telling a young Luke Skywalker "those were no desert raiders...the blast patterns are to precise....it must have been Imperial Storm Troopers" after which Luke jumps in his jalopie and races home to discover the bodies of his aunt and uncle. This and the general fear emanated from everyone that is confronted by STs seems to inidicate an overall compentency that is not reflected in the movies. Even the heroes in the saga displayed this fear/respect, so I believe that STs should be competent and scary for the players (though slightly less competent than the PCs)

I believe this is true, and here's how I handle it.

There's a difference between combat and marching across the field firing your blasters and anything that might be out there. It's not that they aren't accurate, they just aren't aiming. Aiming takes time and leaves you open to attack. When you won't have too much problem doing that (say, against jawas), go for it. When you'd likely get killed (say, when you are under seige by every ewok on the planet), find some cover and take opportunity shots when you have the chance. Other times, you might just dig in and shoot the best you can even though you can't make out clear targets (like when you're boarding diplomatic vessle and their security force is hiding behind bulkheads down the corridow).

[prestidigitator]

Perhaps Our Heroes simply have Combat Luck (something has to protect them, as they have no armor) and a Stormtrooper needs a lucky shot (or a shot from surprise) to have any chance of inflicting any real harm.
According to D20 Star Wars they have Ablative Combat Luck, or Body+Stun with Invisible Power Effects. :rolleyes:

[prestidigitator]

I believe this is true, and here's how I handle it.

There's a difference between combat and marching across the field firing your blasters and anything that might be out there. It's not that they aren't accurate, they just aren't aiming. Aiming takes time and leaves you open to attack. When you won't have too much problem doing that (say, against jawas), go for it. When you'd likely get killed (say, when you are under seige by every ewok on the planet), find some cover and take opportunity shots when you have the chance. Other times, you might just dig in and shoot the best you can even though you can't make out clear targets (like when you're boarding diplomatic vessle and their security force is hiding behind bulkheads down the corridow).
Yeah, well, when I see a bunch of my comrades falling by the wayside, I tend to put my CSLs into DCV too. :)

When I think about it, all the times the heros fought stormtroopers in the movies, there seems to be cover, range, high speed, etc. Hmm. Maybe I'll have to re-watch them and look for that. It may simply be a matter of the Heros not being stupid enough to stand still in the middle of the enemy's line of fire.

[Supreme Serpent]

One of the more entertaining theories I've heard is that the Rebels managed to sabotage the shipment of blasters sent to supply the Stormtroopers on the Death Star. :)

[austenandrews]

Hmm. It's been a while since I played d6 Star Wars, but wasn't that the thing they called "Combining"?
Dunno, I played it over a decade ago for a grand total of two or three sessions. I just remember that combat mechanic for its interesting solution to the incongruity.

[austenandrews]

One of the more entertaining theories I've heard is that the Rebels managed to sabotage the shipment of blasters sent to supply the Stormtroopers on the Death Star. :)
I wrote a mission for Star Wars Galaxies about Rebels sabotaging the visors of stormtrooper helmets, but the Ranch rejected it. :)

[Nevenall]

It gets better after A New Hope, but there are still good example of Stormtroopers being unable to any leading character no matter how unprotected. Whereas if they heros hit, they hit the Stormtroopers in the head or the heart, except in A New Hope where I guess they didn't want to singe the extras.

I think that a GM screen and some roll fudging is probably the best way to go, unless you were playing a campaign where this was a really major factor. Like your SW or Rambo type campaigns.
I've found that using the optional version of Luck that gives a character points to add or subtract from attack rolls against him, and moving hit locations from vital areas to less vital areas works very well.
And you can say that if the Mook rolls a natural 3 to hit you can't use Luck to make it a miss, but you can still change the HL.
I wonder how many times Princess Leia got shot at before they hit her?

[prestidigitator]

It gets better after A New Hope, but there are still good example of Stormtroopers being unable to any leading character no matter how unprotected. Whereas if they heros hit, they hit the Stormtroopers in the head or the heart, except in A New Hope where I guess they didn't want to singe the extras.
Well, some of those hits could possibly be stuns or KOs, rather than lethal hits. We don't always see long enough to know the stormtroopers don't get up again (or they fall down exhaust tubes or whatever, which could happen with a KO or Knockdown).

[Steve]

Well, while I called it the Stormtrooper Effect, I wasn't intending to lock it into a Star Wars line of thinking. Good comments from everyone though. :)

[AmadanNaBriona]

I've thought about this before as well... I remember reading a GURPS optional rule called "The Imperial School of Marksmanship" or somesuch that stated to simulate this effect the "mooks" always miss their first shot. A HERO and movie friendly way to do the same effect is really quite easy. Have your stormtroopers (or similar agent types) always launch their starting volley as "Blazing away" for a presence attack. It even makes a certain tactical sence to try and break their opponents morale, especially when you add in their rep. Its always easier to shoot insurgents in the back while they're running from you than to take them in a stand up fight. Another good rule for this kind of effect is Suppression Fire. After fairly serious pondering of the rules, suppression fire became almost the default attack mode used by my Confederation troopers in my old Star Hero campaign. Unless a PC was dumb enough to be standing out in the open in plain view shooting at them...in which case a trooper or two would focus on the PC in question and usually render them into a puddle of protoplasm.

[Nevenall]

Well, some of those hits could possibly be stuns or KOs, rather than lethal hits. We don't always see long enough to know the stormtroopers don't get up again (or they fall down exhaust tubes or whatever, which could happen with a KO or Knockdown).
Very good point. The only time I can think of seeing dead stormtroopers would be when they are storming P. Leia's ship.

[prestidigitator]

I've thought about this before as well... I remember reading a GURPS optional rule called "The Imperial School of Marksmanship" or somesuch that stated to simulate this effect the "mooks" always miss their first shot. A HERO and movie friendly way to do the same effect is really quite easy. Have your stormtroopers (or similar agent types) always launch their starting volley as "Blazing away" for a presence attack. It even makes a certain tactical sence to try and break their opponents morale, especially when you add in their rep. Its always easier to shoot insurgents in the back while they're running from you than to take them in a stand up fight. Another good rule for this kind of effect is Suppression Fire. After fairly serious pondering of the rules, suppression fire became almost the default attack mode used by my Confederation troopers in my old Star Hero campaign. Unless a PC was dumb enough to be standing out in the open in plain view shooting at them...in which case a trooper or two would focus on the PC in question and usually render them into a puddle of protoplasm.
Awesome! :thumbup:

EDIT: Wait. Double thumbs up (and rep). :thumbup: :thumbup:

[Nevenall]

I've thought about this before as well... I remember reading a GURPS optional rule called "The Imperial School of Marksmanship" or somesuch that stated to simulate this effect the "mooks" always miss their first shot. A HERO and movie friendly way to do the same effect is really quite easy. Have your stormtroopers (or similar agent types) always launch their starting volley as "Blazing away" for a presence attack. It even makes a certain tactical sence to try and break their opponents morale, especially when you add in their rep. Its always easier to shoot insurgents in the back while they're running from you than to take them in a stand up fight. Another good rule for this kind of effect is Suppression Fire. After fairly serious pondering of the rules, suppression fire became almost the default attack mode used by my Confederation troopers in my old Star Hero campaign. Unless a PC was dumb enough to be standing out in the open in plain view shooting at them...in which case a trooper or two would focus on the PC in question and usually render them into a puddle of protoplasm.

That is a really great idea which is going strait into my campaign. I don't usually do presense attacks directly against players, but supression fire is just the thing.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Thanks for the enthusiactic support. It came to me in the shower one night after perusing the boards... thinking about it, I realized that the first thing anyone usually does when the stormtroopers show up with blasters blazing is either cut and run or immediately head for cover. Sounds like a logical resopnce to a PRE attack to me. From there it was easy.

[austenandrews]

Another good rule for this kind of effect is Suppression Fire.
Right, that's an excellent one. I intended to mention SF in my earlier post.

Something else I forgot to mention is that people attacking in large groups take much fewer chances. When twenty cops surround one gunman, if the gunman can shoot in one direction and half the cops will duck. No need to take extra risks when numbers guarantee success. The fewer the cops, the greater risks they'll take to end the conflict.

[Mantis]

Personally, I wouldn't assume that every Stormtrooper (or any member of an armed mob opposed to the main characters) is an on-the-ball, well-trained, highly-motivated and experienced operative. They could just as likely be conscripted, poorly-trained, unenthusiastic and may never have fired their weapon in anger before. Less likely the closer they are to Darth Vader, of course, but even so they still can't all be hardened veterans.

As a GM, if using small groups of Agents as opponents, I would develop appropriate small-unit tactics for them as well. This makes them more of a challenge by making them more effective as a whole, even if they are not a threat individually, and would keep me honest if the players come up with a countering tactic during a session - the Agents respond per their 'training' rather than accroding to my in-game knowledge. Of course, the Agency can then develop counter-tactics between encounters, or develop new weapons/tricks if any weaknesses are exposed... :eg: .

[KA.]

Well, in fairness, I don't remember any of the Rebels' "ace pilots" being able to even touch Vader in a dogfight either.
It took Han Solo (another main character) firing from behind, by surprise, to land a damaging shot on him during the assault on the Deathstar.
So it appears that all the 'major players' are pretty much immune to the other side's mooks.

KA.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Well, in fairness, I don't remember any of the Rebels' "ace pilots" being able to even touch Vader in a dogfight either.
It took Han Solo (another main character) firing from behind, by surprise, to land a damaging shot on him during the assault on the Deathstar.
So it appears that all the 'major players' are pretty much immune to the other side's mooks.

KA.
Actually, it's been a while since I've seen Star Wars, but I don't think Han did shoot Vader. I believe he blew up one of Vader's wingmen, the other wingman's fighter had a glancing collision with Vader's ship, and Vader was sent spinning out of control out into space.

I could be mis-remembering though; as I said, it's been a while. ;)

[austenandrews]

Actually, it's been a while since I've seen Star Wars, but I don't think Han did shoot Vader. I believe he blew up one of Vader's wingmen, the other wingman's fighter had a glancing collision with Vader's ship, and Vader was sent spinning out of control out into space.

I could be mis-remembering though; as I said, it's been a while. ;)
You're correct. Vader blew his Piloting roll at a critical moment. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

You're correct. Vader blew his Piloting roll at a critical moment. :)

A fortunate "error" on his part, if one reads the novelization. It holds that the brush against the wall knocked out some systems so he couldn't control flight direction and headed off into space. As a result, he wasn't on the DS when it blew.

[Brother Jim]

stormtroopers are lousy shots, but everyone is terrified of their shooting abilities because lucas wrote it that way.

just like annakin was a divine (mis-)conception.

[Hugh Neilson]

stormtroopers are lousy shots, but everyone is terrified of their shooting abilities because lucas wrote it that way.

just like annakin was a divine (mis-)conception.

Did any one SS trooper have to be a crack shot for people to be afraid of the SS?

I think the comments made are pretty accurate - when fired on, the characters who didn't get hit put considerable effort into getting out of the way. I'd suggest they're passable shots, but not sharpshooters by any stretch.

This is another "RPG breaks down from source material" issue. In the movies, huge numbers of opponents (stormtroopers, Indians, Nazis, whatever) chase the Hero and never hit. Yet the characters are still scared of these hordes of enemies. Put the same structure in an RPG and "I charge the stormtroopers - they can only hit me on a 3, so I should take them down before one of them gets lucky. Besides, one shot isn't likely to take be below 0 BOD - he's have to roll a 17 or 18!"

[lemming]

You're correct. Vader blew his Piloting roll at a critical moment. :)
Damn 18s! Or did he have levels in targetting to get by Luke's force? Hmmmm.

Of course later on, Lucas may give us a different editing...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Did any one SS trooper have to be a crack shot for people to be afraid of the SS?

I think the comments made are pretty accurate - when fired on, the characters who didn't get hit put considerable effort into getting out of the way. I'd suggest they're passable shots, but not sharpshooters by any stretch.

This is another "RPG breaks down from source material" issue. In the movies, huge numbers of opponents (stormtroopers, Indians, Nazis, whatever) chase the Hero and never hit. Yet the characters are still scared of these hordes of enemies. Put the same structure in an RPG and "I charge the stormtroopers - they can only hit me on a 3, so I should take them down before one of them gets lucky. Besides, one shot isn't likely to take be below 0 BOD - he's have to roll a 17 or 18!"
This is the reason why I like the Blazing Away/PRE attack combo. My players have always been pretty good sports about being on the receiving end of PRE attacks (the trade off is that I let them use PRE attacks with impunity...if they pitched a fit they'd be more restricted) It does a good job of simulating the "Run the Imperials are here!" effect while letting me write them up as superior soliders without instantly fragging the PC's

[Dust Raven]

You're correct. Vader blew his Piloting roll at a critical moment. :)

It looks to me like it made it. You don't make a Combat Pilot roll to avoid being hit by something, the ship's DCV takes care of that. You make the roll if the vehicle takes KB from something to maintain control. I think that's what he did, and when he got his ship undercontrol, he was already too far from the fight (well, from Luke) to stop the destruction of the Death Star so he took off. At least that's the way I see it. I haven't read the novelization.

[austenandrews]

I figured it was "Han shoots mook, mook careens toward Vader, Vader blows rolls to evade & gets knocked out into space." If memory serves he didn't regain control until after the Death Star was already dust. "Best starpilot in the galaxy" indeed. :p

[AmadanNaBriona]

Of couse Vader spun off into space... Look how weird the control surfaces are on a TIE fighter compared to the sleek rebel ships...
Oh, wait....
Control surfaces don't matter in space
My bad
:nya:

*tounge firmly planted in cheek*