Help: Spirit Bottle

[Vondy]

I have a long time character I'm in the process of converting to Hero. The character is a spirit bottle. The spirit bottle is a repository of the tribes great chiefs and heroes. A spirit bottle has the following powers, some from the ritual that makes them a spirit bottle, and some from the fact that they are a repository of spiritual power:

1) see souls,demons, etc. (detect, sense: spirit sight).
2) soul wrastlin' (affects deso on strenth).
3) regenerate, even from death, but over a period of several days
4) LS: aging, disease
5) bottle spirit (x-dim movement?)*
6) call bottled spirits (contacts)

I want some ideas on how people would deal with number five, and some of the side effects of number six. In general, they can imprison any soul, sheid, demon, etc they run across, but the more powerful they are the more difficult it is to imprison and contain them:

Ego Contest?

When calling spirits, ordinarily its not too big a problem (though some negotiation might be necessary), but a few issues can come into play. First, if the spirit is particularly strong willed, or she has to be "in contact" with it for an extended period, she starts to take on some of its personality traits.

A variable psych lim?

Also, when calling up less than friendly spirits, there is a rare chance they can take over her body.

An ego contest if the contact roll is missed?

There is also a risk of losing control of the body when returning from unconsiousness (not sleep) or death.

Accidental Change?

But, the spirits can also be helpful. They have background skills and can translate (presuming they speak a language she speaks as well as the tongue in question) - all doable with the contact mechanic - but can also help "guide" her.

+2 Overall Levels, linked to contact roll, spirit must have skill in question?

[Dr. Anomaly]

First off, I assume you're not talking about ripping the souls out of living people and putting those souls in the bottle, right? You're talking souls/spirits/etc. that are already free-roaming?

X-Dim sounds like a good place to start. With X-Dim, you're going to have to buy it "Usable as an Attack", and that requires you to define a "reasonably common" defense against the power. Depending on what the Ego of your spirit bottler is vs. the usual Ego of the spirits he'd be trying to use it on would define whether or not it's a "reasonably common" occurance that an Ego vs. Ego check would let them resist being bottled.

[Blue]

5) bottle spirit (x-dim movement?)*
6) call bottled spirits (contacts)

In general, they can imprison any soul, sheid, demon, etc they run across, but the more powerful they are the more difficult it is to imprison and contain them:

Entangle, only v. Spirits, RSR: Contested EGO Roll?
Transformation Attack, based on ECV?


When calling spirits, ordinarily its not too big a problem (though some negotiation might be necessary), but a few issues can come into play. First, if the spirit is particularly strong willed, or she has to be "in contact" with it for an extended period, she starts to take on some of its personality traits.

A variable psych lim?
Simplest way, I think.


Also, when calling up less than friendly spirits, there is a rare chance they can take over her body.

"Side Effect" triggered by contest failure. Point value = number of disad points assigned by the GM (a 40pt side effect winds up giving him, on this occasion, Megalomania, Enraged when mocked, etc.... In other words something appropriate to this particular spirit).


There is also a risk of losing control of the body when returning from unconsiousness (not sleep) or death.

Accidental Change?

Sounds about right.


But, the spirits can also be helpful. They have background skills and can translate (presuming they speak a language she speaks as well as the tongue in question) - all doable with the contact mechanic - but can also help "guide" her.

Skill pool? I'd only allow such a thing if they had no conscious control over which skill manifested.

[Sean Waters]

Call me old fashioned, but isn't 6) just 'summon variable type of spirit' - then you summon one with the requisite knowledge. I'd build a limitation in - you may not get quite what you want or the spirit might claim to have deeper knowledge than it does :D Perhaps a RSR with a side effect (summons malevolent spirit)

As for 5, some sort of transform or a desperately powerful mind control or mental illusion would seem to be the way to go if you wanted to keep the spirit bound for any length of time.

If you are limited to how many spirits you can bind, you can use summon again: with the advantages of specific individual and variable type: basically you call the spirit and then use advantages or EGO contests to make it stay and do your bidding. Mind you it depends how you define spirits...

[Dust Raven]

I have a long time character I'm in the process of converting to Hero. The character is a spirit bottle. The spirit bottle is a repository of the tribes great chiefs and heroes. A spirit bottle has the following powers, some from the ritual that makes them a spirit bottle, and some from the fact that they are a repository of spiritual power:

1) see souls,demons, etc. (detect, sense: spirit sight).
2) soul wrastlin' (affects deso on strenth).
3) regenerate, even from death, but over a period of several days
4) LS: aging, disease
First off... cool concept!

5) bottle spirit (x-dim movement?)*

I want some ideas on how people would deal with number five, and some of the side effects of number six. In general, they can imprison any soul, sheid, demon, etc they run across, but the more powerful they are the more difficult it is to imprison and contain them:

Depends on what you mean my "imprison." It sounds like something permanent, rather than a temporary Entangle. The question I would have is, how would a spirit/soul/etc escape from such a bottle, and is such a thing possible?


6) call bottled spirits (contacts)


A lot of these sound like a number of secondary effects of other Powers. Off the top of my head, I'd sugget using Skill Levels for the simple advice or guidance of the souls, possibly with Extra Time and/or Cost END to represent the effort. Summon could be used for the more engaging contacts, espeically when bartering for information or favors.

You can use Side Effects on either (but especially the Summon) to represent the influence any specific soul may have upon the character. You can use the rules for Personality Loss for Multiform to simulate the effect of a soul taking over the summoner.

[Vondy]

First off... cool concept!


Depends on what you mean my "imprison." It sounds like something permanent, rather than a temporary Entangle. The question I would have is, how would a spirit/soul/etc escape from such a bottle, and is such a thing possible?

The way its traditionally been handled is: most spirits are bottled and never heard from again. If she fails a contact roll, a spirit may initiate an ego contest, and if she loses, they take over her body. Getting out is another matter. They could use her body to perform some sort of ritual to get out, I suppose. Extra-planar beings who have dimensional movement can use that to initiate additional ego contests, a failed roll on her part meaning she was forced to cast them out. The character, as a rule, is wary of bottling demons and will only do it as a temporary measure. She's also reticent to call up spirits she "doesn't know well." I was treating the "regulars" as individual contacts.



A lot of these sound like a number of secondary effects of other Powers. Off the top of my head, I'd sugget using Skill Levels for the simple advice or guidance of the souls, possibly with Extra Time and/or Cost END to represent the effort. Summon could be used for the more engaging contacts, espeically when bartering for information or favors.

You can use Side Effects on either (but especially the Summon) to represent the influence any specific soul may have upon the character. You can use the rules for Personality Loss for Multiform to simulate the effect of a soul taking over the summoner.

This is an interesting idea. I'll have to fiddle with it.

[CourtFool]

Just something I did to simulate contacts was Detect Applicable Information, Extra Time, Incantations, RSR (Conversation, Persuasion or Seduction) and in this case it sounds like you could add Side Effects.

[Sean Waters]

Just something I did to simulate contacts was Detect Applicable Information, Extra Time, Incantations, RSR (Conversation, Persuasion or Seduction) and in this case it sounds like you could add Side Effects.

...Like the Universal Translator thing. I was looking at that, and it seems to me you can simulate an 'infinite knowledge skill' using the construct, all for 20 points for your basic PER roll. Perfect for the 'know it all'.

I'm not terribly happy though about constructing your 'getting information from spirits' thing with that sort of construct though: you could pile on more limitations to make it more interesting but I still like the summon construct - even though that may well work out cheaper, just on the basis that it feels more like a role play thing than a roll play thing.

:)

[Dr. Anomaly]

...Like the Universal Translator thing. I was looking at that, and it seems to me you can simulate an 'infinite knowledge skill' using the construct, all for 20 points for your basic PER roll. Perfect for the 'know it all'.Yep. I've posted that sort of construct before, most recently here (http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?p=634158&highlight=Universal#post634158). :)

[Dust Raven]

The way its traditionally been handled is: most spirits are bottled and never heard from again. If she fails a contact roll, a spirit may initiate an ego contest, and if she loses, they take over her body. Getting out is another matter. They could use her body to perform some sort of ritual to get out, I suppose. Extra-planar beings who have dimensional movement can use that to initiate additional ego contests, a failed roll on her part meaning she was forced to cast them out. The character, as a rule, is wary of bottling demons and will only do it as a temporary measure. She's also reticent to call up spirits she "doesn't know well." I was treating the "regulars" as individual contacts.

Okay, so she only temporarily bottles the spirits, but has some she knows well and keeps in bottles to ask question from time to time? Have I got that right?

Mmm.... If you mean temorarily as in "lasts a really long time and might as well be permanent becuase they are only released when the character says so"... I think I can work with that.

I would start by building a bottle. In this case, a bottle is "place" that cannot be escaped through brute force or through the use of Desolidification, Teleport or EDM. For ease, well just say it's another dimension. To get rid of those pesky EDMing spirits, you can essentially build a "Base" in the other dimension; a Base with no walls (in encompasses the entire 8 hexes of the dimension), but has a strong Suppress EDM 0 END Persistant. This should be cheep because you are only paying 1/5 the cost (which is fair, because it's gonna be tricky to get the spirit in there in the first place). For however many bottles you have, use the cost for doubling equipment: 5 points for twice as many 8 hex dimensions with a Suppress EDM. When you start running out, spend some XP on twice as many more.

Now for getting him in there: EDM Usable As Attack is obvious, but it should have the following Limitation: Target Must Be Grabbed/Restrained Or Willing. It should probably also have some Extra Time Limit as well. This will keep it from being used like an attack, but more as what you do once a spirit is defeated. You'll have to work out how that part's accomplished as I don't know how spirits are written up for your game.

As far as talking to them, you would need a way to communicate through the bottle, unless you are actually letting them out. Personally, I'd say use Clairsentience to "view" the inside of the bottle and put a Gate Limitation on it to represent that the target can see you right back (and, of course, Only To See In Bottle Dimensions and Transdimensional). As a freebe, I'd allow it to permit targeting with Mental Powers so you can have to mental battles). Then it's just dial up and ask whatever you want and hope they don't eat your brain when you do. Or you can use the Summon idea I suggested for a simpler version of gaining access to any of them.

[prestidigitator]

Okay, so she only temporarily bottles the spirits, but has some she knows well and keeps in bottles to ask question from time to time? Have I got that right?

Mmm.... If you mean temorarily as in "lasts a really long time and might as well be permanent becuase they are only released when the character says so"... I think I can work with that.

I would start by building a bottle. In this case, a bottle is "place" that cannot be escaped through brute force or through the use of Desolidification, Teleport or EDM. For ease, well just say it's another dimension. To get rid of those pesky EDMing spirits, you can essentially build a "Base" in the other dimension; a Base with no walls (in encompasses the entire 8 hexes of the dimension), but has a strong Suppress EDM 0 END Persistant. This should be cheep because you are only paying 1/5 the cost (which is fair, because it's gonna be tricky to get the spirit in there in the first place). For however many bottles you have, use the cost for doubling equipment: 5 points for twice as many 8 hex dimensions with a Suppress EDM. When you start running out, spend some XP on twice as many more.

Now for getting him in there: EDM Usable As Attack is obvious, but it should have the following Limitation: Target Must Be Grabbed/Restrained Or Willing. It should probably also have some Extra Time Limit as well. This will keep it from being used like an attack, but more as what you do once a spirit is defeated. You'll have to work out how that part's accomplished as I don't know how spirits are written up for your game.

As far as talking to them, you would need a way to communicate through the bottle, unless you are actually letting them out. Personally, I'd say use Clairsentience to "view" the inside of the bottle and put a Gate Limitation on it to represent that the target can see you right back (and, of course, Only To See In Bottle Dimensions and Transdimensional). As a freebe, I'd allow it to permit targeting with Mental Powers so you can have to mental battles). Then it's just dial up and ask whatever you want and hope they don't eat your brain when you do. Or you can use the Summon idea I suggested for a simpler version of gaining access to any of them.
Holy Moley, DR! Why not just a Transform: Spirit to helpful bottled spirit. It will naturally take more time for more powerful spirits, as they will have more Body.... There might even be some spirits which are strong enough to be immune (read: high enough Power Defense).

The method of "healing" the Transform will be the circumstances whereby they can break out (including perhaps your bottle being broken?).

[Vondy]

Okay, so she only temporarily bottles the spirits, but has some she knows well and keeps in bottles to ask question from time to time? Have I got that right?

Mmm.... If you mean temorarily as in "lasts a really long time and might as well be permanent becuase they are only released when the character says so"... I think I can work with that.

I would start by building a bottle. In this case, a bottle is "place" that cannot be escaped through brute force or through the use of Desolidification, Teleport or EDM. For ease, well just say it's another dimension. To get rid of those pesky EDMing spirits, you can essentially build a "Base" in the other dimension; a Base with no walls (in encompasses the entire 8 hexes of the dimension), but has a strong Suppress EDM 0 END Persistant. This should be cheep because you are only paying 1/5 the cost (which is fair, because it's gonna be tricky to get the spirit in there in the first place). For however many bottles you have, use the cost for doubling equipment: 5 points for twice as many 8 hex dimensions with a Suppress EDM. When you start running out, spend some XP on twice as many more.

Now for getting him in there: EDM Usable As Attack is obvious, but it should have the following Limitation: Target Must Be Grabbed/Restrained Or Willing. It should probably also have some Extra Time Limit as well. This will keep it from being used like an attack, but more as what you do once a spirit is defeated. You'll have to work out how that part's accomplished as I don't know how spirits are written up for your game.

As far as talking to them, you would need a way to communicate through the bottle, unless you are actually letting them out. Personally, I'd say use Clairsentience to "view" the inside of the bottle and put a Gate Limitation on it to represent that the target can see you right back (and, of course, Only To See In Bottle Dimensions and Transdimensional). As a freebe, I'd allow it to permit targeting with Mental Powers so you can have to mental battles). Then it's just dial up and ask whatever you want and hope they don't eat your brain when you do. Or you can use the Summon idea I suggested for a simpler version of gaining access to any of them.

Okay, I need to restate the case: she is the bottle.

In general, she's a woman from a patrican family who was "chosen" by a barbarian tribe to be the repository for their ancestor spirits. That part doesn't really help her very much, because, while the ancestor spirits are benevolent, they seldom have any real impact on the game. Especially since she hasn't seen the tribe that foisted their ancestors on her in thirty years.

In addition, she can force souls, ghosts, etc. into herself, serving as a prision. In general, when she does this, that's the end of it. She doesn't have to deal with them and its permanent unless she decides to let them out. She can "call them up" - essentially commune with the dead - but that has certain inherent risks: if she blows her contact roll an ego roll is required to keep the spirit from taking over her body. Extended communication with them leads to the same thing, but more on the order of personality loss (as was suggested).

When I mentioned only temporarily bottling extra-dimensional creatures, the presumption is that they're powerful and can make it difficult (headaches, constant voices in her head, feelings of nasea, mood swings, etc). They also tend to have big ego scores, and some of them have trans-dim powers, which makes them dangerous for her to mess with. As a result, she'll only bottle demons and their ilk temporarily as an emergency measure.

There are three or four spirits, souls, whatever (out of many) she has bottled that are more inclined to be useful, or at least, will negotiate with her, beyond normal contact stuff. They can be much more helpful due to their abilities, but they can be hard to deal with, and she's generally reticent to call them up. She has defined relationships with the ones who make reccurant appearances. Some are positive, and one is downright nasty.

Note: I do like your idea, though.

One thing we never decided was whether or not the respository could ever get "Get Full." I remember a scene in ghostbusters where the EPA turned off the ghost storage machine and they all flooded the city.... she can't be turned off, but what if she had a spontaneous release?

[prestidigitator]

Okay, I need to restate the case: she is the bottle.

In general, she's a woman from a patrican family who was "chosen" by a barbarian tribe to be the repository for their ancestor spirits. That part doesn't really help her very much, because, while the ancestor spirits are benevolent, they seldom have any real impact on the game. Especially since she hasn't seen the tribe that foisted their ancestors on her in thirty years.

In addition, she can force souls, ghosts, etc. into herself, serving as a prision. In general, when she does this, that's the end of it. She doesn't have to deal with them and its permanent unless she decides to let them out. She can "call them up" - essentially commune with the dead - but that has certain inherent risks: if she blows her contact roll an ego roll is required to keep the spirit from taking over her body. Extended communication with them leads to the same thing, but more on the order of personality loss (as was suggested).

When I mentioned only temporarily bottling extra-dimensional creatures, the presumption is that they're powerful and can make it difficult (headaches, constant voices in her head, feelings of nasea, mood swings, etc). They also tend to have big ego scores, and some of them have trans-dim powers, which makes them dangerous for her to mess with. As a result, she'll only bottle demons and their ilk temporarily as an emergency measure.

There are three or four spirits, souls, whatever (out of many) she has bottled that are more inclined to be useful, or at least, will negotiate with her, beyond normal contact stuff. They can be much more helpful due to their abilities, but they can be hard to deal with, and she's generally reticent to call them up. She has defined relationships with the ones who make reccurant appearances. Some are positive, and one is downright nasty.

Note: I do like your idea, though.

One thing we never decided was whether or not the respository could ever get "Get Full." I remember a scene in ghostbusters where the EPA turned off the ghost storage machine and they all flooded the city.... she can't be turned off, but what if she had a spontaneous release?
Sounds like a Transform to me. Sounds like your, "spontaneous release," idea could also be the method of healing. Skill Levels/straight skills or a Summon with Activation/RSR, or your orgininal idea of Contacts, either way bought with Side Effects, sound like valid approaches too. I think the rest is up to you to nitpick.