Opinions Sought: Limitations that great additional function

[nexus]

There are a couple of canonical Powers that brought with "Limitations" that actually grant them additional ability that the power uses to be build them doesn't normally have.

One example is: Corherent Form pg 230 of the Until Superpowers Database.

I was wondering what different opinions are on this sort of thing? Personally, I'm sitting on the fence.

[Supreme Serpent]

Don't have USPD, so not sure about the example.

You mean like a Universal focus being able to function like the Advantage Usable by Others? Gun Guy hands his blaster to Mind Lass to help destroy the robots, while Superguy, with no limits, couldn't hand off his eye beams?

Never really been a big problem for us, as far as I can remember.

[nexus]

Exactly, that would be the other canonical example I could think of. Coherent Form is a Force Field with the Limitation "Only defends against Teleportation Damage (delivered when you accidentally teleport into something solid)" -2

[Dust Raven]

I see what you mean. Foci that can be used by others, Charges that don't cost END and so on. I'm perfectly okay with them for the most part. What I'd disagree with is a Limitation that allows a Power to do something that nothing can do:

Personally, I would never by the Coherent Form like that. To me, that's just buying Safe Blind Teleport for the character's Teleport ability. You can only take damage from a Teleport you use, so the character would have to have it.

[prestidigitator]

Exactly, that would be the other canonical example I could think of. Coherent Form is a Force Field with the Limitation "Only defends against Teleportation Damage (delivered when you accidentally teleport into something solid)" -2
Eh. I'd be fine with the Force Field. You still spent points for it, and you don't get to use it anywhere else (like against some guys fist). I don't see that the Limitation has provided you any additional functionality. BTW, I'd say you still have to spend End on the Force Field and consciously activate it every time you use your Teleport as well unless you modify it appropriately, like with Reduced End and Trigger/Persistent. But then, I'd modify a lot of examples from source material before I'd allow them or use them anyway (not that I don't appreciate the source material! I think it's a great starting point). That's me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.

[prestidigitator]

Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.
Oh yeah. :hail: I pretty much blocked those out of my consciousness, as I don't like to think about them. Usually, as soon as I start thinking about that sort of thing, I tend to conveniently find something to distra...nice shoes, by the way. ;)

:sigh: But seriously, if it is going to have significant effect on the game, I would make such aspects of a Power actually be bought as Advantages. For example, your aura should be bought with 0 End and Invisible Power Effects. Otherwise, you're never going to be able to keep it on long enough for it to be useful as a "detect," and no "Evil" creatures are ever going to walk into the Area of Effect as it is pretty obvious what it does. I might also be very careful about a definition such as "Evil." Does his own aura start to smack him down if this paladin neglects to put change in the cup of a beggar he walks by? It's all in how you play it, and interpret it as a GM.

[RDU Neil]

Nexus... I assume by "great additional" you meant to type "GRANT additional functionality" Right?


Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.


Great example... and yes, this does bug me. Prior to the "class of minds" concept... the whole "Only vs. Machine Minds" as a limitation on Mind Control actually granted Mind Control the ability to affect machines, when a none limited Mind Control could not do this.

In a system as dense and complex as Hero, these things are bound to come out. What seems to be an intuitive concept in one situation, breaks down when you start to examine it in an analytical/abstract light.

Desol is perfect example of a standard power that breaks the ultimate Hero axiom of "no absolutes" because it makes you absolutely untouchable. The only mitigating factor is to take SFX and consider them part of the defined power effects (i.e. desol affected by sonics) which breaks another Hero axiom... SFX don't affect functionality.

This kind of thing... and the historical tradition of Limitations that actually grant advantages... it is one of those areas I'd love to see cleaned up from a consistency/theoretical POV... but probably don't come into play enough (in my experience) to really get hung up on them. YMMV.

[prestidigitator]

Oh, also on the Holy Aura thing, I would probably force it to be bought with a Linked Detect if it was actually gong to be used that way a lot of the time. Otherwise, there would be in-game balances. For example, if a demon were disguised, it could probably hide the effects of the aura on it anyway. Remember that any Continuous effect has to have some way to "turn it off." I might just decide there is some way to foil it without turning it off. For example, perhaps as long as the demon knows not to look at you directly while you aren't directly confronting him....

[nexus]

Nexus... I assume by "great additional" you meant to type "GRANT additional functionality" Right?


Yes, of course.

Edit: Sorry if that confused you. I type too fast sometimes.

[RDU Neil]

Good thread Nexus... as this also brings up the flame-o-riffic topic of...

... wait for it...

... Damage Shield! :nonp: (RUN!)

The fact that the OLD Damage Shield effectively gave "Continuous" as a freebie... so when 5th came out, it tried to address this issue... much to the AAAARRRGGGHHH!!! factor of many of us long term Hero freaks.

What this whole discussion generates is a flip side of the "Are limitations too much of a cost break" discussion.

Essentially, "Are some advantages not worth really raising the cost?"

Or... still another example... try the Hand Attack limitation.

Here is a limitation that actually grants an AMAZING functionality... that is adding damage to STR as a combined single attack.

Essentially, the ability to stack damage into one attack should really be a large Advantage (IMO) but often it has been, at worst, a +0 cost... or in the case of Hand Attack... a benefit gained WITH A PRICE BREAK!

So... YEAH! The more I think of it... the more this does bug me... not just from an inconsistency point of view, but from out and out game balance.

[nexus]

This kind of thing... and the historical tradition of Limitations that actuall grant advantages... it is one of those areas I'd love to see cleaned up from a consistency/theoretical POV... but probably don't come into play enough (in my experience) to really get hung up on them. YMMV.

Just to return a good deed. Its "actually".:) And yes, I mean that. I hate it when I make typos. It distracts from the message of the post. I sincerely thank you for pointing out my error.

[prestidigitator]

Desol is perfect example of a standard power that breaks the ultimate Hero axiom of "no absolutes" because it makes you absolutely untouchable. The only mitigating factor is to take SFX and consider them part of the define power effects (i.e. desol affected by sonics) which breaks another Hero axiom... SFX don't affect functionality.
I've never thought of it as SFX not affecting functionality. The whole system is riddled with things like this. For example, Personal Immunity doesn't usually grant you immunity to other characters' powers, but the GM might rule that if SFX were sufficiently similar...Powers bought with Continuous must have some reasonably common thing that will turn them off...Transform has to have some reasonably common way to "heal" it.... I think this is a great aspect of Hero. It makes SFX one of the central foci of the game. I would choose to say that the mechanics of a Power are not built around any one particular Special Effect. Meaning we don't have Fire Manipulation (that could do damage, or start a campfire, or melt someone's armor). We have Energy Blast, and Change Envrionment, and Drain (all of which must have some Special Effects, but which could have any Special Effects). As for Special Effects affecting mechanics, I think this free game, and the GM should use as much creativity as possible to do just that.

[nexus]

I've never thought of it as SFX not affecting functionality. The whole system is riddled with things like this. For example, Personal Immunity doesn't usually grant you immunity to other characters' powers, but the GM might rule that if SFX were sufficiently similar...Powers bought with Continuous must have some reasonably common thing that will turn them off...Transform has to have some reasonably common way to "heal" it.... I think this is a great aspect of Hero. It makes SFX one of the central foci of the game. I would choose to say that the mechanics of a Power are not built around any one particular Special Effect. Meaning we don't have Fire Manipulation (that could do damage, or start a campfire, or melt someone's armor). We have Energy Blast, and Change Envrionment, and Drain (all of which must have some Special Effects, but which could have any Special Effects). As for Special Effects affecting mechanics, I think this free game, and the GM should use as much creativity as possible to do just that.

I've generally interpreted that sfx issue to mean SFX shouldn't have a major constant impact on functionality. Just because your RKA is a blast of fire, it shouldn't always set the target on fire unless its brought as Uncontrolled Continous. But if your fighting Mr Paper or Sweats Gasoline Man. Well, things might be different. :) Using SFX helps keep the game from being too dry without adding additional complexity or requiring that every single effect have a seperate power write up, most of which would be the same except for one or two lines (and inevitably one type of effect would be innately better than another one). If you want your sfx to have a major advantage all the time, you have to pay for it. If it has a major drawback allot of the time, you get a limitation for it. At least that's my take on it.

[prestidigitator]

Here is a limitation that actually grants an AMAZING functionality... that is adding damage to STR as a combined single attack.

Essentially, the ability to stack damage into one attack should really be a large Advantage (IMO) but often it has been, at worst, a +0 cost... or in the case of Hand Attack... a benefit gained WITH A PRICE BREAK!

So... YEAH! The more I think of it... the more this does bug me... not just from an inconsistency point of view, but from out and out game balance.
WHAT?!?!?!? No, no, no. Mechanically, Hand Attack is Strength bought with a Limitation. If the Limitation didn't exist, you could use that extra Strength to pick things up, jump farther, etc. It is limiting. Very so.

I guess you could say, "But why does the second 5 Strength add to the first 5 Strength, or the second d6 of an Energy Attack add to the first d6? Your Energy Blast doesn't add to your Ranged Killing Attack!" It's the way the system works. If we change that, we'll have to do a very fundamental change to the whole system, from ground up!

[prestidigitator]

I've generally interpreted that sfx issue to mean SFX shouldn't have a major constant impact on functionality. Just because your RKA is a blast of fire, it shouldn't always set the target on fire unless its brought as Uncontrolled Continous. But if your fighting Mr Paper or Sweats Gasoline Man. Well, things might be different. :) Using SFX helps keep the game from being too dry without adding additional complexity or requiring that every single effect have a seperate power write up, most of which would be the same except for one or two lines (and inevitably one type of effect would be innately better than another one). If you want your sfx to have a major advantage all the time, you have to pay for it. If it has a major drawback allot of the time, you get a limitation for it. At least that's my take on it.
Agreed. And an attack with one particular Special Effect isn't going to hit everyone with Desolidification. Right? For that you need the Affects Desolidified Advantage.

[RDU Neil]

WHAT?!?!?!? No, no, no. Mechanically, Hand Attack is Strength bought with a Limitation. If the Limitation didn't exist, you could use that extra Strength to pick things up, jump farther, etc. It is limiting. Very so.


I guess you could say, "But why does the second 5 Strength add to the first 5 Strength, or the second d6 of an Energy Attack add to the first d6? Your Energy Blast doesn't add to your Ranged Killing Attack!" It's the way the system works. If we change that, we'll have to do a very fundamental change to the whole system, from ground up!

What? Yes, Yes, yes! :)

And this is why Hand Attack is bah-roken... because it is based on a bah-roken stat, instead of being based on the core concept of 1d6 for 5 active points.

STR, from initial concept of the game as Champions... broke the core rules for genre considerations... i.e. you get a lot more effect for STR per five points than anything else in the game.

Then to create a new power... a damage power... but NOT base it on the core 1d6 per 5... but base it on "characteristic with limitation"... that is a piece of the game that is inconsistent and broken.

Why should Hand Attack be built from a characteristic... but Energy Blast (and basically every other attack power out there) is based on a core rule that is much less effecient?

Essentially... Hero allows "Powers" to be created from a core concept of 1d6 effect for 5 points... but it ALSO allows for "Powers" created from the concept of "characteristics with limitations"

This second concept is fundamentally flawed because the original characateristics were not created from a consistent, core balanced axiom. Many are vastly undercosted for what they do... you can debate whether this is good or bad, or the reasons why... but I'd think you'd have to accept that "any Power built based on an undercosted characteristic is very likely to be undercosted itself... especially when you start applying further cost cutting limitations."

If Hand Attack is based on STR with lims... why can't EB also be based that way? It is STR, only for damage, usable at range... doesn't add to figured, can't lift, grab, hold with it, etc.

Hand Attack is bah-roken, because it is based on STR cost, which is bah-roken.

[Silbeg]

If Hand Attack is based on STR with lims... why can't EB also be based that way? It is STR, only for damage, usable at range... doesn't add to figured, can't lift, grab, hold with it, etc.

Hand Attack is bah-roken, because it is based on STR cost, which is bah-roken.

Well, I won't argue against such emphatic statements. :whistle:

However, my main (and really only) beef with HAs is what has been referred to as the "HA exception". The fact that you can add STR dice up to the dice of the HA, regardless of the advantages that have been tacked on, seems unbalanced to me. Everywhere else in the game (except Martial Arts, I guess... but I see those as even cheaper HAs) when you are adding damage, you have to take the advantages into consideration (velocity damage, adding to killing attacks)...

To me, it doesn't make sense that it takes 7.5 STR to increase an AP HKA by 1DC, but it only costs 5 STR to increase an AP HA by 1DC. In my eyes, the costs should be exactly the same... what is so special about an HA that would allow this?

In my campaign, we have discussed "house ruling" this, and we have had only 2 characters even take advantage of it over the last 3 years... I have kept the rule, if only to stay as "vanilla" in the rules as possible.

[Vondy]

From where I sit, a large part of the equation is whether or not the player intended to gain the implicit advantage from the lim, and how frequently it actually works in their favor. If the player is making a conscious effort to leverage the additional utility, or it constantly works in their favor, then it needs to be purchased as a power. If the player isn't leveraging the additional utility, or only benefits from it once in a blue moon, I wouldn't sweat it.

[RDU Neil]

the "HA exception". The fact that you can add STR dice up to the dice of the HA, regardless of the advantages that have been tacked on, seems unbalanced to me. Everywhere else in the game (except Martial Arts, I guess... but I see those as even cheaper HAs) when you are adding damage, you have to take the advantages into consideration (velocity damage, adding to killing attacks)...

To me, it doesn't make sense that it takes 7.5 STR to increase an AP HKA by 1DC, but it only costs 5 STR to increase an AP HA by 1DC. In my eyes, the costs should be exactly the same... what is so special about an HA that would allow this?

In my campaign, we have discussed "house ruling" this, and we have had only 2 characters even take advantage of it over the last 3 years... I have kept the rule, if only to stay as "vanilla" in the rules as possible.

This is also a good point. Something that I've had a problem with all the way back to the original "pro-rating STR" concept for HKAs or whatever. It is a combination of some flawed game design that all come together in Hand Attacks.

1) Some attacks can add STR damage (or add TO STR damage) while others can't. Conceptually, it makes sense, balance wise this is a crack in the system.

2) STR added to an attack gets the advantages that exist on the attack, but not on the STR. This is simply one more piece of bad decision making that gives STR even more bang for the buck than it already has... plus gives game balance further strain.

I have long ago house ruled this away, comletely. If STR adds to an attack, it does not get the advantages on the attack, unless also bought on the STR.

Example: Penetrating HKA, 2d6. Add 30 STR... you get a four d6 KA, but only two of the dice are considered penetrating. Works just fine, just roll different colored dice.

Example 2: My houe rule on Armor Piercing is "subtract the body rolled from non-hardened defenses" rather than the standard "halve non-hardened defense" Thus, if the above example was AP... you'd get 4d6KA, two dice AP, so subtract the body rolled on those two dice from the defenses before applying the TOTAL 4d6 damage. Again, works well andhas for years in my game. (It changes the dynamic of AP to rule this way... from a "hose high defense characters" to "make attacks very lethal vs. low defense characters"... but this fits our campaign style.)

In my game... Hand Attacks that have advanatages get those advantages only on the dice done by the Hand Attack... but not on the strength dice being added. Again, been doing that for years, and works just fine.

Actually this discussion raises another question I've been meaning to ask. (Maybe 5th rules answer this... I don't know.)

When considering a Hand Attack or Hand Killing Attack... how does it work?

Does the attack do the base damage, and STR adds to it. Or does STR do the base damage, and the attack adds to it?

For HKA (think a knife) it seems intuitive to say, "The knife is doing the damage and the STR is just increasing that damage." Thus it is also intuitive to say that you max out damage done at 2x the knife's base damage.

With Hand Attack, I feel it goes the other way. Think billy club. In this case, the STR is doing the damage... and the club is just making it worse. Thus it is LESS intuitive (for me at least) to limit a Hand Attack to only 2x it's base damage.

Anyway... not saying it is right or wrong... but this level of interpretation does seem to under lie much of these disagreements.

[Blackberry]

Eh. I'd be fine with the Force Field. You still spent points for it, and you don't get to use it anywhere else (like against some guys fist).

Plus it could still be Drained etc., whereas it's much harder to drain the "Safe Blind Teleport" out of someone's Teleport power.

[Dr. Anomaly]

From where I sit, a large part of the equation is whether or not the player intended to gain the implicit advantage from the lim, and how frequently it actually works in their favor. If the player is making a conscious effort to leverage the additional utility, or it constantly works in their favor, then it needs to be purchased as a power. If the player isn't leveraging the additional utility, or only benefits from it once in a blue moon, I wouldn't sweat it.
I play a gadgeteer/mage. Almost everything I make (guns, potions, oils, whatever) are Universal foci, so anyone could potentially use them. The tech stuff, though, usually requires some kind of Skill Roll to get it to work, most often with a skill that your average character doesn't have (KS: Metallurgy, SS: Nuclear Physics, and so on); magical scrolls likewise (Power Skill: Magic). The magical potions, oils, and similar things, though, are a different story.

Yes, I have helped out my team mates by tossing them a potion or oil that will heal them or armor them or somesuch, but my co-GM doesn't feel it's being abused. Why?

Well, I still shudder thinking about the time I was tossing a vial of magical oil that grants +30 STR to a team mate, and it was intercepted by the other side's brick... :angst:

Things like that tend to keep the "usefulness" of that kind of Limitation balanced! ;)

[Dust Raven]

Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.

This Power violates the rules of the game. You can't have an "Only Versus Evil" unless the character can tell the difference between what's evil and what's not, like when using Trigger. You can of course by a Detect that is or isn't Linked to this effect so that it can tell the difference.

[Mortuorum`]

Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.IIRC, that sort of nonsense was addressed in an Adventurer's Club (or other semi-canonical source) over a decade ago. It's also covered by the First Rule of Limitations: If it Doesn't Limit the Character, it's Not Worth any Points. (I don't have my book handy, but you get the idea.)

Any Limitation that effectively means "doesn't hurt my enemies" is a flat-out Bozo no-no. In fact, I wouldn't even allow it as an Advantage (or if I did, it'd be huge). If you want an AoE that doesn't affect "evil" or whatever, you need to buy the Advantage Selective Targeting and a linked Detect/Sense for the quality you want to use as a determinant for who is and isn't affected by the attack.

I'd probably allow a -1/2 Limitation on the Selective Targeting Advantage, though.

[prestidigitator]

And this is why Hand Attack is bah-roken... because it is based on a bah-roken stat, instead of being based on the core concpet of 1d6 for 5 active points.

STR, from initial concept of the game as Champions... broke the core rules for genre considerations... i.e. you get a lot more effect for STR per five points than anything else in the game.
Oh no! I'm not going to get into this argument again. I'll just say that I'm okay with Strength, and our opinions can differ on this one. :)


However, my main (and really only) beef with HAs is what has been referred to as the "HA exception". The fact that you can add STR dice up to the dice of the HA, regardless of the advantages that have been tacked on, seems unbalanced to me. Everywhere else in the game (except Martial Arts, I guess... but I see those as even cheaper HAs) when you are adding damage, you have to take the advantages into consideration (velocity damage, adding to killing attacks)...

To me, it doesn't make sense that it takes 7.5 STR to increase an AP HKA by 1DC, but it only costs 5 STR to increase an AP HA by 1DC. In my eyes, the costs should be exactly the same... what is so special about an HA that would allow this?
Hmm. I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. When you use an HA, you are just using your Strength, and if you bought Advantages like AP for the HA, it is just like you bought that Advantage for part of any attack. For example, you can legally buy AP for half the dice of an RKA. It doesn't mean that the rest of the attack (the other half of the RKA, or the normal Str in the original example) benefits from the Advantage. At least, that sounds like the obvious mechanism to me.

I personally would allow people to instead "apply" their Str to "add to" an HA with AP, but in this case they would have to decrease the DCs as they would for any attack with Advantages (like a HKA). Oh, and in this case the HA is being treated as the base attack, so it couldn't be more than doubled.

[Dust Raven]

Hmm. I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. When you use an HA, you are just using your Strength, and if you bought Advantages like AP for the HA, it is just like you bought that Advantage for part of any attack. For example, you can legally buy AP for half the dice of an RKA. It doesn't mean that the rest of the attack (the other half of the RKA, or the normal Str in the original example) benefits from the Advantage. At least, that sounds like the obvious mechanism to me.

I personally would allow people to instead "apply" their Str to "add to" an HA with AP, but in this case they would have to decrease the DCs as they would for any attack with Advantages (like a HKA). Oh, and in this case the HA is being treated as the base attack, so it couldn't be more than doubled.

Actually, he's right about how damage is added to an HA. For example, if you have a 20 STR, and an HA +4d6 AP, you do a total of 8d6 AP while using it. Of course, if you had a 30 STR and the same HA, you could chose between an 8d6 AP or a 10d6 (no AP).

Personally, I don't think this makes anything broken, there are other limitation inherent (or incorperated in the HA Limitation) in HAs that balance it out (like not being able to use an HA sans STR).