Stuff I didn't know (the world's longest post)

[Sean Waters]

Actually it ain't that long at all: I was reading through pages 383 and 425 of 5er (as you do) and I noticed that you are supposed to be spending 1 END to fire a weapon, which I hadn't known. Moreover you are supposed to (if I'm reading it right) spend 1 END in addition to any END for strength to do any non-martial manoeuvre, including, presumably the basic strike. I hadn't known that either (although I was aware you're supposed to spend 1 END to, for instance, dodge.) Mind you, martial manoeuvres don't cost END to use (other than, presumably for STR). Not sure why, but they don't.

This could have interesting connotations for automatons who've done as suggested and sold back END to 0 and bought everything at 0 END. Those killer robots can't actually fire the guns or hit you: they don't have the END for it. :)

Anyway, I didn't know this stuff and so I thought I'd post it up in case you'd like to know it, but didn't.

There's probably stuff that you didn't know that I'd like to know about, but don't: if so post it here. :) :nonp: :)

[rjcurrie]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.

[prestidigitator]

Actually it ain't that long at all: I was reading through pages 383 and 425 of 5er (as you do) and I noticed that you are supposed to be spending 1 END to fire a weapon, which I hadn't known. Moreover you are supposed to (if I'm reading it right) spend 1 END in addition to any END for strength to do any non-martial manoeuvre, including, presumably the basic strike. I hadn't known that either (although I was aware you're supposed to spend 1 END to, for instance, dodge.) Mind you, martial manoeuvres don't cost END to use (other than, presumably for STR). Not sure why, but they don't.
Holy crud monkey! Are you sure? Guns should have bought 0 End, but have the Str Min Limitation, so you should have to pay End for the Str necessary to meet the Str Min. I believe the martial maneuver clause is there because some of them add DCs or effective Str for doing a Grab or whatever. Ordinary maneuvers costing End? Dodge? I think not, unless they use Str, movement, attacks that use End.... If this crap has really been added to the system, I'm afraid I will be completely ignoring it, with a little mortified grumbling thrown in for good measure.

[Sean Waters]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.

You are right, but page 383 says you pay 1 END for manouvres in addition to END for strength or power components. Reading them together...wwell, like I said I may not have been reading it right. It's so late over here it's early. :)

[Sean Waters]

Holy crud monkey! Are you sure? Guns should have bought 0 End, but have the Str Min Limitation, so you should have to pay End for the Str necessary to meet the Str Min. I believe the martial maneuver clause is there because some of them add DCs or effective Str for doing a Grab or whatever. Ordinary maneuvers costing End? Dodge? I think not, unless they use Str, movement, attacks that use End.... If this crap has really been added to the system, I'm afraid I will be completely ignoring it, with a little mortified grumbling thrown in for good measure.

Both firing weapons (and it makes no distinction between heroic and superheroic games) and dodging are specifically mentioned as costing +1 END. Grumble away: it's not good to bottle these thing up. :)

[Hyper-Man]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.correct.


You are right, but page 383 says you pay 1 END for manouvres in addition to END for strength or power components. Reading them together...wwell, like I said I may not have been reading it right. It's so late over here it's early. Page 383 states "Using a Combat Manuever typically costs 1 END (see page 425)," and as such makes no "new" ruling not already covered on page 425. Get some sleep grasshopper.

:)
HM

[Silbeg]

Both firing weapons (and it makes no distinction between heroic and superheroic games) and dodging are specifically mentioned as costing +1 END. Grumble away: it's not good to bottle these thing up. :)
I would say that for firing weapons, the intent is probably more for equipment than powers. In fact, I would definately rule that for powers the powers rules take over, rather than the weapons rules (since weapons are, by definition, equipment, not powers... right?)

So, if the Superheroic level character - Joe Avenger fires his two Ingram MAC-10s at the enemy, since these are bought (likely) as RKA AF Charges (clips, whatever) in Champions he would not be paying END for the powers.

[RDU Neil]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.

This has always been my interrpetation. The "1 END minimum" is for non-STR maneuvers.

[RDU Neil]

I would say that for firing weapons, the intent is probably more for equipment than powers. In fact, I would definately rule that for powers the powers rules take over, rather than the weapons rules (since weapons are, by definition, equipment, not powers... right?)

So, if the Superheroic level character - Joe Avenger fires his two Ingram MAC-10s at the enemy, since these are bought (likely) as RKA AF Charges (clips, whatever) in Champions he would not be paying END for the powers.

I would agree with this... plus it adds another level of differentiation in a game that does NOT require all equipment to be paid for with points.

If you are using guns paid for with points, you don't spend END because of charges... but if you are using "equipment" guns, you will.

Question... in a game that allows Rapid Fire (I think that is the correct name) where you can fire more than once, but at an cumulative -2 per each shot after... do you have to pay END for each pull of the trigger, or is this considered a single "maneuver?"

I'd vote single maneuver, but what do y'all think?

[Silbeg]

Question... in a game that allows Rapid Fire (I think that is the correct name) where you can fire more than once, but at an cumulative -2 per each shot after... do you have to pay END for each pull of the trigger, or is this considered a single "maneuver?"

I'd vote single maneuver, but what do y'all think?

Since Rapid Fire is really just a ranged Sweep, I would tend to use the Sweep rules for this. Now, not having 5ER, I don't know if they have made the "optional" rule for paying END for the STR used in each "attack" of the Sweep a core rule, but it is one that we use in my game(s).

So, based on the above, I would require the expenditure of END for each and every shot.

Now, another thing to look at, when using equipment, is the STR mins. If a weapon requires STR 13 to use, and you are using the Heroic rules for END used = STR/5, each shot would use 3 END... which supercedes the 1 END.

Just something to think about...

[austenandrews]

The groups I've played with have never tracked END for base Running, STR Min, etc. Too much paperwork.

[RDU Neil]

The groups I've played with have never tracked END for base Running, STR Min, etc. Too much paperwork.

I've always done it in aggregate. "Assume you spend minimum 1 END per action" and subtract five extra END every five actions or so. Basically, we evaluate END expenditure briefly every four or five combat rounds (I don't use the SPD chart, so roughly the equivalent of once per turn) and knock a few extra points off. Not extremely accurate, but quick and easy.

YMMV.

[Blue]

I definitely play it so that if you've bought your superpowered item or power to 0 END then it only costs STR when applicable. After all, as a GM it makes my life a lot easier in the bookkeeping department if I don't have to record END when I don't have to. Many of my villains have charges or 0 END to save me the trouble.

[austenandrews]

I definitely play it so that if you've bought your superpowered item or power to 0 END then it only costs STR when applicable. After all, as a GM it makes my life a lot easier in the bookkeeping department if I don't have to record END when I don't have to. Many of my villains have charges or 0 END to save me the trouble.
You bother to track END on NPCs?



Um, I mean, you're right, it certainly can be a lot of work, but it's worth it for my players. ;)

[nexus]

First off, THANK YOU SEAN WATERS! I brought this up awhile ago to another Hero player and he went up one side of me and down the other about how that was never a rule. Now, thanks to your diligent efforts I can rub his pasty face in it!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...I mean, I can calmly refute his earlier statements and present a counterargument backed by rules.

Secondly, its kind of funny/cool that in Hero you can be so tired and battered (Out of End and low Stun) that firing a gun can knock your out for awhile. Kind of like a "Death Spiral" effect without being quite so annoying, IMO.

[Silbeg]

Does anyone have the page reference for 5E? Haven't gotten around to dropping $50 on 5ER yet...

[Hyper-Man]

Does anyone have the page reference for 5E? Haven't gotten around to dropping $50 on 5ER yet...

According to the excellent work by Zornwil (see link below in my sig):
p. 383 => p. 253, 255 (Block Section GREATLY EXPANDED)
p. 425 => p. 286-287

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

It is interesting that this rule effectively prevents the typical automoton from doding, blocking, etc. since these have no STR component. And there's no way to buy the,m "0 END". I guess a 10 point END battery would do the trick.

[Silbeg]

It is interesting that this rule effectively prevents the typical automoton from doding, blocking, etc. since these have no STR component. And there's no way to buy the,m "0 END". I guess a 10 point END battery would do the trick.

I suppose you could argue one of two points...


Automatons tend not to care about defensive actions?
When you bought the STR to 0END, these manuevers also inherit it?

[Hyper-Man]

It is interesting that this rule effectively prevents the typical automoton from doding, blocking, etc. since these have no STR component. And there's no way to buy the,m "0 END". I guess a 10 point END battery would do the trick.

Since this really only seems to be an issue with automotons I would use the following guidelines:

0 End on running (or any other movement) would allow for Dodge since it is, in a sense, moving out of the way of the attack.
0 End on STR would allow Block since it could be argued that it does have an implied STR component like that for Grab in that the STR of the (unarmed/bare-handed) Blocking character might be used to determine how powerfull an attack it can be applied to. (Would you allow an unarmed Batman to use a Block to stop a punch from Superman?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Since this really only seems to be an issue with automotons I would use the following guidelines:

0 End on running (or any other movement) would allow for Dodge since it is, in a sense, moving out of the way of the attack.
0 End on STR would allow Block since it could be argued that it does have an implied STR component like that for Grab in that the STR of the (unarmed/bare-handed) Blocking character might be used to determine how powerfull an attack it can be applied to. (Would you allow an unarmed Batman to use a Block to stop a punch from Superman?)


Seems reasonable. Woudl you allow a PC to pay no END for use of those maneuvers if they bought the same 0 END? [Unfair question since I think very few people actually apply this rule...]

As to Supes/Bats, sure. A block need not be a straight-up stopping the blow. It could be a feint to draw the attack to the right, then a shift to the left to avoid it. To me, Block is "active defense", not just "grab the punch".

[Hyper-Man]

Seems reasonable. Woudl you allow a PC to pay no END for use of those maneuvers if they bought the same 0 END? [Unfair question since I think very few people actually apply this rule...]

As to Supes/Bats, sure. A block need not be a straight-up stopping the blow. It could be a feint to draw the attack to the right, then a shift to the left to avoid it. To me, Block is "active defense", not just "grab the punch".I think that it should apply to any character who has 0 End Movement and STR but you are essentially correct. This rule would probably only get enforced in heroic campaigns.

Defining the Block as you do in your Batman example just allows for the argument to treat it the same under the End rules as Dodge; a type of movement.

HM

[Dust Raven]

I'll have to check by BBB, but I believe these were all rules for quite some time, as I've been using them since I started playing back in 1992.

The way I look at it, and wish the book detailed it like this, is that you need STR to move about. If you don't have any STR, you can't move (says so right there under STR). So since you have to use STR to move about (pulling triggers, dodging, etc.) it stands to reason you'd need to spend END on that STR. The rules just stats that it typically costs one END as opposed to rounding down to 0. So if your STR is 0 END, the END cost of any of these maneuvers is now 0.

[prestidigitator]

Fish! I don't know. All I can say is that once again I will probably just scrap this rule. Ignoring that for the moment, however...in gereral, I'd agree with the remarks about rules for End use in Powers overruling any End cost of a maneuver.

As for Automatons: oh just hand wave it already! :nya:

Where Sweeps/Rapid Fires (or whatever the Ranged equivalent is called) are concerned, if they require Str, I know you only spend the End for Strength once per Phase, no matter how many times you use it. If the Power you are attacking with costs End (like an EB in a Superherioc game that isn't bought with Charges or Reduced End Cost), you do have to pay that for each attack.

[Dust Raven]

I'll have to check by BBB, but I believe these were all rules for quite some time, as I've been using them since I started playing back in 1992.

Yep, page 168 of the BBB under Endurance. Maneuvers without a STR listed cost 1 END to perform.

It does seem like an easy thing to miss or forget, and just as easy to hand wave away and being insignificent, especially in a supers game. In a heroic game though, I'll enforce the rule fiercely. Otherwise no one gets tired!