What types of Skill Levels do YOU allow with Dive For Cover?

[Hyper-Man]

A couple of days ago I posted Dive For Cover Skill Level Question? (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29883) to the Rules Thread asking Steve L. what types of Levels could be used with Dive For Cover and it turns out that Overall is the only combat type that can be applied to that manuever.

Here is Steve's answer:

No type of Combat Skill Level can be applied to improve the DEX Roll for Dive For Cover; CSLs improve CV, not DEX Rolls. Any type of Skill Level that improves the DEX Roll (not Agility Skill Rolls — DEX Rolls) can improve the DFC roll. Other types of Skill Levels, such as “All Noncombat Skills,� cannot improve the DFC roll, because it’s a DEX Roll, not a Skill Roll. The GM can, at his option, treat the DEX Roll as an “Agility Skill� roll, thus allowing 5-point Agility Skill Levels or 8-point All Non-Combat Skills Levels to apply, but this is not recommended.Since there have been several other threads hashing out the differences between DFC, Dodge and Flying Dodge (please don't revisit this one!) I figured that several people either assumed or houseruled that 8 point All Combat Levels were usable (which is incorrect).

Ideas and thoughts welcome.

:cool:
HM

[TheEmerged]

For myself? This is a scaling penalty, so I initially allowed PSL's to be applied to it (I allow PSL's to be applied to characteristic rolls and skill rolls). However, to say this trivialized the roll is putting it gently. I have since disallowed it.

Currently I'll allow 10pt "Overall" levels to be used for DFC, and skill levels bought explicitly for characteristic rolls. And to be honest, I'm currently toying with a rule to apply a stiffer penalty for DFC rolls vs non-area attacks.

[Hyper-Man]

For myself? This is a scaling penalty, so I initially allowed PSL's to be applied to it (I allow PSL's to be applied to characteristic rolls and skill rolls). However, to say this trivialized the roll is putting it gently. I have since disallowed it.

Currently I'll allow 10pt "Overall" levels to be used for DFC, and skill levels bought explicitly for characteristic rolls. And to be honest, I'm currently toying with a rule to apply a stiffer penalty for DFC rolls vs non-area attacks.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered adding some sort of DEX vs. DEX mechanic to the current DVC rules that would then allow use of any DCV applicable Combat Levels? Just a weird thought I've had....

HM

[TheEmerged]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered adding some sort of DEX vs. DEX mechanic to the current DVC rules that would then allow use of any DCV applicable Combat Levels? Just a weird thought I've had....

HM

Yeah, that's on the list of a couple suggestions I've seen (might have been from you) I want to run through the paces the next time the group gets together.

Another suggestion that's been tossed my way by one of the playes is to start it as DEX vs DEX, with an l penalty of -2 for each successive DFC as per Block.

Another suggestion I want to run through the paces is to let the attacker make the attack roll, and how much it is made by is added as a penalty to the roll.

[CourtFool]

For myself? This is a scaling penalty, so I initially allowed PSL's to be applied to it (I allow PSL's to be applied to characteristic rolls and skill rolls). However, to say this trivialized the roll is putting it gently. I have since disallowed it.

Currently I'll allow 10pt "Overall" levels to be used for DFC, and skill levels bought explicitly for characteristic rolls. And to be honest, I'm currently toying with a rule to apply a stiffer penalty for DFC rolls vs non-area attacks.

Is DFC over-used in your campaigns? I am just curious about your experiences.

I never really gave it much thought because area attacks have been, for whatever reason, rather rare in my campaigns.

[Sean Waters]

DFC is rare in my campaigns, but, certainly in superhero games, where levels, especially high-point levels, are less of a bargain than just buying DEX, I'd let 10 point levels, 8 point 'all combat' levels and probably 5 point 'defence only' levels go in .

Why? Well, 3x8 point levels cost 24 points, which is what +8 DEX costs even if you ignore the saving you'd make if you were going to increase your SPEED anyway (as much as +11 DEX if you consider that saving...and most people spend some points on SPD), and +8 DEX is at least +2/+2 OCV/DCV and quite possibly +3/+3 or even +4/+4, plus it gives you +2 on all DEX based skills and rolls.

5 point levels are more efficient in some ways, but 3 of them costs 15 points, which is at least +5 DEX, possibly as much as +7 if you were going to save points on SPEED, so that's at least +2/+2 and +1 on DEX rolls and skills.

In a heroic game, I'd probably run with the rules as writ: having high DEX gets very expensive with normal characteristic maxima, so levels are more use and you don't have to hand out easter eggs for buying them

[Trebuchet]

I'd allow Overall Levels to apply to DFC, and probably specific 3 point Levels as well. Probably not All Combat or Defense Only, although I'd consider it.

DFC is simply not used enough in our campaign to warrant all this soul searching and angst over it. :angst:

:D

[CourtFool]

DFC is simply not used enough in our campaign to warrant all this soul searching and angst over it.

Sorry to single you out here since you are certainly not the first one guilty of this but...99% of the shit posted on this board does not warrant all this soul searching and angst. People are just looking for other opinions.

[Trebuchet]

Sorry to single you out here since you are certainly not the first one guilty of this but...99% of the shit posted on this board does not warrant all this soul searching and angst. People are just looking for other opinions.And I gave my opinion on this topic as well. :D

[Hyper-Man]

Sorry to single you out here since you are certainly not the first one guilty of this but...99% of the shit posted on this board does not warrant all this soul searching and angst. People are just looking for other opinions.

That's maybe a fair comentary on the NGD but not really for the HSD. I like getting involved in core system rules discussions because they are the only avenue I currently have to help formulate my own 'house rules'. I plan to use them when I eventually get the chance to be a Hero-missionary out among the heathen gamers. I subscribe to the house-rule threads when I see them but they usually aren't that good for discussion as somebody always seems to get defensive about anyone questioning their particular version of them. I like the rule by rule approach as it is more concrete and allows more in depth analysis without usually hurting anyone's feelings*.

*Steve L. seems pretty thick skinned :D

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

[size=1]*Steve L. seems pretty thick skinned :D
[size=2]


If we're talking about the rules, we bought them. I think Steve can put up with a lot if it generates sales. :)

[OddHat]

CSLs improve CV, not DEX Rolls

They can also add damage classes, but whatever.

A level with "all combat" should be applicable to any combat maneuver, especially considering its price. I don't mind banning DfC outright, or doing anything else a particular GM would like to reduce make it less of an all-or-nothing maneuver, but if I do allow it in a campaign then I will treat it as any other combat maneuver, including permitting the use of Overall Levels, All Combat Levels, and levels that are specifically purchased to aid in the use of DfC.

[Silbeg]

Having never really thought about it too much (perhaps I should have?!), but it is an interesting mechanic to think about.

In part, you should use allow the same sort of skill levels that you would allow to be used for the Breakfall skill, I would think (same type of mechanic, I guess?)

10 pt Overall Skill Levels (this can affect ANYTHING)
8 pt w/ All Non-combat skills
5 pt All Agility SKills (all DEX based skills?)
3 pt Skill levels (grouping DFC in them... probably would only allow combinations with Breakfall, maybe Acrobatics, or the like).
2 pt Skill Levels w/ DFC
I guess that I wouldn't allow combat skills levels to be used (as these specifically modify CVs). Have to think about that, but it does make sense.

[Dust Raven]

While I don't allow CSLs to improve a DFC roll, I do allow characters to buy a +1 to DFC for 2 points (just like a CSL). Why? Because you can buy a +1 to any single Characteritsic Roll for only 2 points, and limiting it to just DFC should make it cost even less, but why bother nitpicking over a single point. +1 for 2 points sounds good. This is the only way I allow a bonus to DFC to be bought, however, but I allow the larger levelst to be used for it if they apply

[TheEmerged]

RE: How often does it happen?.

/cliche on
TOO often :rolleyes:
/cliche off

Jokes aside, it depends on the scenario. Generally the players didn't bother with it vs normal attacks until I showed some of them the "Champions vs Viperia" rundown I did for the boards. I used the mechanic against them in the next scenario (which involved a "boss" battle) and none of us liked the result -- it felt cheap, and at least in my opinion turned the game into "who fails their roll first".

Its main effect is in the "boss battle" scenario; against mooks and the like it isn't necessary, and against similar size/power teams it's not worth the lost attack.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would allow:

5pt Dex skill levels

Agility skill levels (levels to all Agility skills)

Overall Skill levels

8pt All Combat levels.

Why 8pt All Combat levels? Because Dive For Cover is a Combat Maneuver and All Combat levels can affect anything that has to do with combat :) Well, for the most part anway.

I also allow characters to use their Acrobatics skill in place of a simple Dex roll for DFC if they whish, in which case then any skill level that affects Acrobatics would apply to it.

I would also allow a character to purchase 2pt skill levels to increase Dive For Cover by themselves. I would also allow PSL's vs the Dive penalty for distance moved.

[pinecone]

I it hasen't been an issue yet but right now I'm happy letting overall levels, combat levels and custom bought levels all work...I'd have no prob with PSl's either...though that might change after I see them in action...a custom build would be something like using 3 point levels for Dive for cover, leaping accuracy and Dodge (3 things that sort of are related)....

[NuSoardGraphite]

About making DFC less attractive:

Have you read the full rules? Once a character has used the DFC maneuver (successful or not) they are considered Prone i.e. are at 1/2DCV and must spend 1/2 Phase to recover to normal DCV. Btw, DFC is considered an Attack Action, which means using it ends your phase...you can't recover to full DCV until the beginning of your next phase!

Ouch, thats pretty harsh.

What I would do is those who fail their DFC rolls are considered to be only at 1/2DCV and are considered "in the air" when they are hit, so they take more knockback (subtract 1D6 from the KB roll!)

I think that should make it attractive only in an emergency.

[prestidigitator]

I would allow:

5pt Dex skill levels

Agility skill levels (levels to all Agility skills)

Overall Skill levels

8pt All Combat levels.

Why 8pt All Combat levels? Because Dive For Cover is a Combat Maneuver and All Combat levels can affect anything that has to do with combat :) Well, for the most part anway.

I also allow characters to use their Acrobatics skill in place of a simple Dex roll for DFC if they whish, in which case then any skill level that affects Acrobatics would apply to it.

I would also allow a character to purchase 2pt skill levels to increase Dive For Cover by themselves. I would also allow PSL's vs the Dive penalty for distance moved.
I pretty much agree with this. Although technically CSL's only increase your OCV, DCV, or damage for a maneuver, I would allow them to increase your DFC roll if they obviously could be applied to the maneuver (i.e. were bought as 2-pointers for DFC, have DFC as one of the 3 maneuvers for a 3-pointer, or are 8-pointers). I might even allow DCV-only CSLs to be applied, but I'll have to think about this, or make a judgement call when and if it comes up.

[prestidigitator]

About making DFC less attractive:

Have you read the full rules? Once a character has used the DFC maneuver (successful or not) they are considered Prone i.e. are at 1/2DCV and must spend 1/2 Phase to recover to normal DCV. Btw, DFC is considered an Attack Action, which means using it ends your phase...you can't recover to full DCV until the beginning of your next phase!

Ouch, thats pretty harsh.

What I would do is those who fail their DFC rolls are considered to be only at 1/2DCV and are considered "in the air" when they are hit, so they take more knockback (subtract 1D6 from the KB roll!)

I think that should make it attractive only in an emergency.
I agree that the DFC rules are pretty harsh, especially because they cannot be repeated. You'll notice that Dodge bonuses apply until your next Phase, Block and Missile Deflection can be repeated indefinitely with penalties as long as you don't fail, etc. I don't believe there is any clause like this for Dive for Cover, so once you're done, you're done. Better hope no more fireballs are coming your way! :)

[TheEmerged]

RE: "It's already pretty harsh" Not in the "boss battle" scenario, where there aren't other fireballs coming from the single opponent. In this scenario the "side effect" issues generally won't matter -- and the DEX roll is too easily made, and the attacker's skill doesn't affect the difficulty the way it should.

added: And just to clarify, if you find DFC is working for you? Great! I'm just noting something that doesn't work they way I think it should...

[Dust Raven]

About making DFC less attractive:

Have you read the full rules? Once a character has used the DFC maneuver (successful or not) they are considered Prone i.e. are at 1/2DCV and must spend 1/2 Phase to recover to normal DCV. Btw, DFC is considered an Attack Action, which means using it ends your phase...you can't recover to full DCV until the beginning of your next phase!

Ouch, thats pretty harsh.

What I would do is those who fail their DFC rolls are considered to be only at 1/2DCV and are considered "in the air" when they are hit, so they take more knockback (subtract 1D6 from the KB roll!)

I think that should make it attractive only in an emergency.

That's exactly how I handle it, but its attractive in many cases other than an emergency. It makes an effective tactic when there are many versus the few (or the one). When a team of heroes are taking on the single big nasty, it makes sense for several characters hold (or abort) their actions so they may DFC versus their opponents first attack, while the rest can then pound away. So the attacker has more attacks... the team has more people... the team can stagger their Phases by holding and waiting for cues from other members, attacking in sequence (some coordinating) and using DFC as the prefered defense. If possible, have two high DEX morons taking turns taunting the opponent and DFC while everyone else attacks.

[Hyper-Man]

That's exactly how I handle it, but its attractive in many cases other than an emergency. It makes an effective tactic when there are many versus the few (or the one). When a team of heroes are taking on the single big nasty, it makes sense for several characters hold (or abort) their actions so they may DFC versus their opponents first attack, while the rest can then pound away. So the attacker has more attacks... the team has more people... the team can stagger their Phases by holding and waiting for cues from other members, attacking in sequence (some coordinating) and using DFC as the prefered defense. If possible, have two high DEX morons taking turns taunting the opponent and DFC while everyone else attacks.

Hey!
Having a High DEX does not make someone a Moron!

HM

[Vondy]

I would allow Dex, Overall, and All Combat levels apply.

[Dust Raven]

Hey!
Having a High DEX does not make someone a Moron!

HM

This coming from the guy who calls the link to his own character "Stupidity". ;)

[prestidigitator]

Hey!
Having a High DEX does not make someone a Moron!

HM
Yes it does. Dex is EXPENSIVE! ;)

[CourtFool]

Yes, COM is the best buy.

[prestidigitator]

Yes, COM is the best buy.
Damn right! Why, half my characters have a Com of 400, and never need to lift a finger for having it all handed to them on silver platters. It makes adventures kind of dull, though.... Besides, you have no idea how many heteros are converted by a 400 Com, and that can get a little awkward when you're not bi....

Sorry. No, really. Sorry. Not sorry enough not to post it, but really....

[David Blue]

10 Overall
8 Dex and agility
5 Dex rolls
3 Dive for cover

On the other hand even the lesser "clumsiness" disadvantage (physical limitation, DEX rolls 11- and agility skills based on 11- regardless of superior DEX, 15pts) kills you regardless. No skill applies if you take those points.

I invite comment if I've costed the skills incorrectly - what should they be?

[Supreme Serpent]

I would also allow someone w/movement-based levels to use them getting out of the way (ie use Superleap/Flight levels when you leap/fly for cover). I've rarely seen a player get these, but if they did I'd allow them to be used for DFC.

[Hyper-Man]

I would also allow someone w/movement-based levels to use them getting out of the way (ie use Superleap/Flight levels when you leap/fly for cover). I've rarely seen a player get these, but if they did I'd allow them to be used for DFC.Good Catch! I almost forgot that Movement Skill Levels are already applicable to DFC per 5ER, page 369.

Here are all of their possible uses:


Lower Turn Mode by 1 (minimum of 0").
Add +1 to any roll (like a DEX roll for DFC) required to land in, or otherwise move to, a particular hex.
(at GM's option) Increase acceleration or deceleration with his modes of movement (not vehicles) by 1" per hex per Skill Level applied.
(at GM's option) Improve DCV if Dodging or using a Combat or Martial Maneuver that provides bonuses to DCV while moving.
Skill Levels with one mode of mevement cost 2 Character points per Level. Skill Levels that apply to any of a character's modes of movement cost 3 Character Points per Level.

HM

[Mike W]

The only skill levels I allow for Dive for Cover are 8 point overall combat levels, 10 point +1 with any roll levels, and 5 point Dexterity levels. To me, no other ones really make much sense. Although the book allows "movement levels" to count, which I could see. But hardly anyone buys them. And of course, if anyone actually bought levels with "dive for cover", but I don't think I've ever seen a character with levels bought just for "dive for cover".

[Sean Waters]

Tecnhically you can't use movement levels to DFC as the manouvre does not provide a bonus to DCV, but it does seem a perfectly reasonable use for the levels: far more reasonable, in fact, than allowing them to be used to increase DCV for dodge, martial dodge and flying dodge (the only manoeuvres that involve movement and a DCV bonus) for 2 points a level IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Tecnhically you can't use movement levels to DFC as the manouvre does not provide a bonus to DCV, but it does seem a perfectly reasonable use for the levels: far more reasonable, in fact, than allowing them to be used to increase DCV for dodge, martial dodge and flying dodge (the only manoeuvres that involve movement and a DCV bonus) for 2 points a level IMO.

Please check your facts again.

First see 5ER, page 369 (or 5E, page 242*).
It clearly states that each Movement Skill Level can provide a +1 to ANY roll required to land in a particular hex.

Then see 5ER, page 393 (or 5E, page 260*).
It clearly states that to use Dive For Cover the character chooses a hex to move to, and then attempts to make a DEX Roll at -1/1" of distance moved. If the DEX roll succeeds, the character is in the designated hex when the attack goes off.

HM

*found easily with Zornwil's thread below.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'm with Hyper-Man on this one. Dive For Cover is a movement maneuver, and thus Movement skill levels should be able to work with it. Heck, if Movement skill levels can add to DCV while moving (or using a moving manuever like Flying Dodge) then whats the problem with it adding to Dive For Cover?

[zornwil]

I THINK I would play it as Steve Long ruled whether I knew his ruling or not. But our players don't seem to Dive for Cover very often, and the times it's happened I can't really recall what levels if any were brought to bear, and they may have assumed and applied levels that I wouldn't have bothered to check.

PS - re "Noncombat Skills", I consider DfC to be a Combat Maneuver, so you can't apply a noncombat skill level.

[OddHat]

I THINK I would play it as Steve Long ruled whether I knew his ruling or not. But our players don't seem to Dive for Cover very often, and the times it's happened I can't really recall what levels if any were brought to bear, and they may have assumed and applied levels that I wouldn't have bothered to check.

PS - re "Noncombat Skills", I consider DfC to be a Combat Maneuver, so you can't apply a noncombat skill level.

Except you also can't apply 8 point levels with "All Combat". Steve's "Combat skill levels only modify CV" doesn't hold water; CSLs also modify damage, and movement levels can clearly modify CV (unless that too has changed).

In my own games, I'd rule that DFC is a Combat Maneuver, and that "all combat" means "all combat" and leave it at that.

[Hyper-Man]

I just wanted to be clear that I was not attempting to make judgements about anyone's opinions or house rules on this subject. I was only pointing out specific rules with regard to the "official rules" as a baseline. Sorry if I did not come accross that way earlier.

HM

[OddHat]

I just wanted to be clear that I was not attempting to make judgements about anyone's opinions or house rules on this subject. I was only pointing out specific rules with regard to the "official rules" as a baseline. Sorry if I did not come accross that way earlier.

HM

No worries. :)

Most of us have rules we disagree with, this is just one of mine.

I also think that the explosives chart is frelled and most military hardware needs a re-write, but that's another flame war. ;)

[Sean Waters]

Having checked my facts, I agree with Hyper-Man. I was considering adding movement SLs on the basis of them being able to add to manoeuvres that involve movement and DCV bonus (+ dodge), but as he rightly points out DFC is a move to a specific hex, and the roll is to get there, which allows the bonus to be applied under the MSL rules. :)

[zornwil]

Except you also can't apply 8 point levels with "All Combat". Steve's "Combat skill levels only modify CV" doesn't hold water; CSLs also modify damage, and movement levels can clearly modify CV (unless that too has changed).

In my own games, I'd rule that DFC is a Combat Maneuver, and that "all combat" means "all combat" and leave it at that.
You know, funny, I had a feeling that somehow I missed that 8-point "all combat" wasn't supposed to apply, either...well, I agree with you, that's dumb. I would allow that to function.