Willing Targets of Mental Powers

[nexus]

I believe there is a rule that a willing target for a mental power can consiously lower their ECV to 0. But can they also lower their Ego so the mentalist can get a high effect roll?

[CourtFool]

I can not find anything in reFrED but I see no reason why not.

[rjcurrie]

I'd allow it. I'd even allow them to shut off any Mental Defense they have, provided it made sense based on its special effect.

[Sean Waters]

Strange as it may seem, I recall (although the source evades me) that this was not a valid tactic.

Why? Well, as usual, it's the abuse thing.

Take, for instance the brick of the party, and you know you'll be facing an enemy mentalist. No Mental Defence in any eveny, but an Ego of 14.

Your own mentalist hits him with a Mind Control: 'do not obey any mind controls from other mentalists' or 'do not attack yourself or members of this group'

In order to effect the brick, the enemy mentalist has to first overcome the contra-order of the friendly mentalist. If the brick could voluntarily drop his Ego to 0 (and if 0, why not -30 for that matter?) then the friendly mentalist would get an extra 14 points of effect for free, making overcoming the command extremely difficult unless there is a 5 dice difference in the power of the attack: unlikely.

Moreover, you also can not choose to forego breakout rolls. Both breakout rolls and using your EGO are instinctive. EGO, to my mind, is inherent: you can't reduce it voluntarily in the same way you can't voluntarily reduce the number of limbes you have. Well, you can, but you'll need a really good surgeon to put them back on after. :)

There is an upside to this: an enemy mentalist can order you to drop mental defences but you can't be commanded to reduce your EGO. Well you can, but it won't work. :)

Also there is nothing to prevent you taking the limitation 'not inherent' on your EGO, or something similar, in which case I would let your drop it to zero - but it would also drop to zero if you were commanded to do so by an enemy mentalist. I would also make it all or nothing: I wouldn't let you drop it for some purposes (like you can for mental defence). If you wanted to be able to do this, I'd require an advantage not a limitation.

[Dust Raven]

Mental Defense, as a Power, can be turned off at will like any other Power (unless bought Always On, which would only be a -0 because it doesn't really limit the Power).

ECV can be reduced to 0, just as you can reduce DCV to 0 by just standing there. ECV is also reduced to 0 when unconscious.

Breakout rolls are always occuring in the subconscious mind and cannot be consciously or unconsciously "turned off".

EGO, however, it EGO. You can't make it go up or down. Conscious or no.

Let's imagine if we could though, just to point out why we can't. I have an EGO of 30, a master of my own self will. Wanting some hyptonic reinforcement to avoid the affects of one of my psych limits for a short while, I ask the team's mentalist to Mind Control me to act contrary to my Claustraphobia (because we are going into a cave). I reduce my EGO to 0 to give the mentalist an extra 30 effect. Wow, what an effect. I'm not bothered at all by the closing in of the walls of the cave. Unfortunately, I now have an EGO of 0, and can't do anyting at all unless I make an EGO roll. That includes raising my EGO back up to 30. What's more, if my EGO goes back up, I get an automatic breakout roll made at the new EGO because of the sudden change in my psychy.

[nexus]

The reasoning is sound. It does bring up an odd possibility though, since some forms of "VR" are built as Mental Illusions. You'd have some people who are to strong willed to use them, and everyone would constantly be trying to unconsiously trying to "escape" from their Gamestation 2000. Not an argument against your reasoning, which seems solid, just a funny thought.

[nexus]

Strange as it may seem, I recall (although the source evades me) that this was not a valid tactic.

Why? Well, as usual, it's the abuse thing.

Take, for instance the brick of the party, and you know you'll be facing an enemy mentalist. No Mental Defence in any eveny, but an Ego of 14.

Your own mentalist hits him with a Mind Control: 'do not obey any mind controls from other mentalists' or 'do not attack yourself or members of this group'

In order to effect the brick, the enemy mentalist has to first overcome the contra-order of the friendly mentalist. If the brick could voluntarily drop his Ego to 0 (and if 0, why not -30 for that matter?) then the friendly mentalist would get an extra 14 points of effect for free, making overcoming the command extremely difficult unless there is a 5 dice difference in the power of the attack: unlikely.

Moreover, you also can not choose to forego breakout rolls. Both breakout rolls and using your EGO are instinctive. EGO, to my mind, is inherent: you can't reduce it voluntarily in the same way you can't voluntarily reduce the number of limbes you have. Well, you can, but you'll need a really good surgeon to put them back on after. :)

There is an upside to this: an enemy mentalist can order you to drop mental defences but you can't be commanded to reduce your EGO. Well you can, but it won't work. :)

Also there is nothing to prevent you taking the limitation 'not inherent' on your EGO, or something similar, in which case I would let your drop it to zero - but it would also drop to zero if you were commanded to do so by an enemy mentalist. I would also make it all or nothing: I wouldn't let you drop it for some purposes (like you can for mental defence). If you wanted to be able to do this, I'd require an advantage not a limitation.

Another valid point. I think if I were going to allow this to be done, in this instance I would use some sort of "Contest of Power" between the two mentalists in question.

[Silly obvious off topic thing]
And of course you could always be "Drain Ego vs Mental Defense" with sfx I am ordering you to lower your ego. :)
[/silly obvious off topic thing]

[Dust Raven]

The reasoning is sound. It does bring up an odd possibility though, since some forms of "VR" are built as Mental Illusions. You'd have some people who are to strong willed to use them, and everyone would constantly be trying to unconsiously trying to "escape" from their Gamestation 2000. Not an argument against your reasoning, which seems solid, just a funny thought.

That would be funny... which is why I never build recreational VR as Mental Illusions. It would really suck if after dangers untold and hardships unnumberd you've fought your way through the goblin city only to make your EGO Roll and not even have a chance to remember you line.

I've always done VR as a form of Images or EDM, neither of which you get an EGO Roll to come back from.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yep, this was covered in the old 4th edition version of The Ultimate Mentalist. You can drop/turn off your Mental Defense. You can voluntarily drop your ECV to 0. However, you can't voluntarily drop your EGO to 0 anymore than you can drop your BODY to 0, short of shooting yourself in the head.

However, in campaigns that support the Critical Hit Optional rule from The Ultimate Martial Artist and other supplements, dropping one's ECV to 0 makes it very easy for a Telepath to score a Critical Hit and achieving the maximum on his effect dice.

[Dust Raven]

I suppose it should be pointed out that when you reduce your ECV to 0 (even for accepting a Mind Scan), your ECV drops to 0. Might sound redundant, but it's important when a friend and an enemy try to affect the same character with a Mental Power during the same Phase...

[ghost-angel]

While I pretty much agree with the above, I'll play devil's advocate here.

Why can't you lower characteristics to a lower level?

If you have a STR of 100 you can choose to use less STR so you're not crushing every coffee cup you pick up and tearing every door you open off its hinges. So you're effectively lowering STR to 5 or 10 or so to open doors and such.

Why wouldn't you be able to effectively use less of any other stat?

Same with PRE, is someone with a PRE of 40 always IMPRESSIVE or can they tone it down a bit to be a little more normal? I don't see why not personally...

So, I might allow someone to lower their EGO to voluntarily accept the results of a Mental Effect..

this is pretty much how Hypnosis works, you pretty much have to volunteer to go under its effects - you resist and it rarely, if ever, works.

[Dust Raven]

While I pretty much agree with the above, I'll play devil's advocate here.

Why can't you lower characteristics to a lower level?

If you have a STR of 100 you can choose to use less STR so you're not crushing every coffee cup you pick up and tearing every door you open off its hinges. So you're effectively lowering STR to 5 or 10 or so to open doors and such.

Why wouldn't you be able to effectively use less of any other stat?

Same with PRE, is someone with a PRE of 40 always IMPRESSIVE or can they tone it down a bit to be a little more normal? I don't see why not personally...

So, I might allow someone to lower their EGO to voluntarily accept the results of a Mental Effect..

this is pretty much how Hypnosis works, you pretty much have to volunteer to go under its effects - you resist and it rarely, if ever, works.

Okay Mr. Advocate... :D

I suppose the difference is in what you choose to use rather than what you have. You have a STR of 100, but you choose to use only 5 when picking up a chair, and then choose to use only 40 when tossing it at a pigeon across the street. You still have 100 though. Same thing with PRE. I suppose a closer example would be other Characteristics that you typically don't make a choice on how much of it you use. Like INT or COM. Sure, you can act dumb and unobservant, but you actually have to work at it (and probably make an INT roll to pull it off). You actually have to do something to yourself to reduce COM (a bad make-up job helps). And as mentioned above, there is BODY. I personally don't know of anyone who has just sat there and killed themselves at will without using some kind of weapon (or special training only available from a clan of ninjas).

[nexus]

I think I am going to continue to allow character to do it. Yes, there are abuse possibilities, but I trust my players enough to allow them a little leeway. So far its been used when a couple of the character were affect by memory alteration to scan their subconsious to see of the original memories could be regained. Nothing terribly absusive. Besides, if you do it with an untrustworthy mentalist nothing stops them from screwing you over while you have your defenses down.

[prestidigitator]

While I pretty much agree with the above, I'll play devil's advocate here.

Why can't you lower characteristics to a lower level?

If you have a STR of 100 you can choose to use less STR so you're not crushing every coffee cup you pick up and tearing every door you open off its hinges. So you're effectively lowering STR to 5 or 10 or so to open doors and such.

Why wouldn't you be able to effectively use less of any other stat?

Same with PRE, is someone with a PRE of 40 always IMPRESSIVE or can they tone it down a bit to be a little more normal? I don't see why not personally...

So, I might allow someone to lower their EGO to voluntarily accept the results of a Mental Effect..

this is pretty much how Hypnosis works, you pretty much have to volunteer to go under its effects - you resist and it rarely, if ever, works.
I agree. Ego is force of will. We can all choose to have a moment of weakness, give in to temptations, etc. Remember that for low Egos (especially when equal to or lower than 0), you become a slave to your Psychological Limitations and basically follow any orders given to you.

That means that while a "friendly" Mental Power might help you more, all detrimental effects (including your own psychological flaws) gain in strength just as much. So your friend isn't going to be any better off helping you overcome your mental issues, and (s)he also isn't going to be any more effective at helping you snap out of an unfriendly Mental Power (in game terms, your friend still has to achieve more Effect than the other Power, and you'll get the same penalty to the enemy Breakout Roll as your friend's will gain to help you).

As far as ECV and Mental Defense, I would say they can certainly be turned off, but not under the condition that you are already being affected by an unfriendly Mental Power. I would just assume that part of an enemy Mental Power would be to cause you to keep your defenses up so that your friends can't help you break out. Unless, of course, an enemy wanted to force you to drop your mental defenses so that his/her future mental attacks could be more effective. Then (s)he could Mind Control you into dropping them (with a high enough Effect), or try to trick you into it with Mental Illusions. I don't think this should work with dropping your Ego, though. That would have to be completely and utterly voluntary; in other words, a decision of the player's and the player's alone (though as I said above, I'm not sure how helpful it would be anyway; do you really want to be even more subject to your enemy's powers? Okay...).

[Dust Raven]

I agree. Ego is force of will. We can all choose to have a moment of weakness, give in to temptations, etc. Remember that for low Egos (especially when equal to or lower than 0), you become a slave to your Psychological Limitations and basically follow any orders given to you.

In a way, I'd just call this "more willing" when versus a Mind Control.

Speakng of which... there are several ways to allow a friendly Mentalist to have a greater affect on the chacter. Just be more willing when a Mind Control is attempted (of course, the command actualy has to be something the character is more willing to do/prepared to receive the command for).

For Telepathy, there's always to option of bringing up memories into surface thoughts to make them easier to find.

Mental Illusions is trickier. I would think being warned you are about to see an illusion would only increase your chances of disbelieving it.

I don't think there is anything one can do for Mind Scan, although I might grant an ECV bonus to the attacker if the target was trying to be found (on top of a 0 ECV for the target if the target desires).

[Seenar]

Of course, you can forgo an Ego roll. Being a willing participant in Hypnosis is just that.

Nor do I see how a friendly Mind Control to protect a Brick is an unreasonable thing. Mentalist dueling for control of an individual makes sense to me. We always had a house rule that one mental power could be used to block or jam another in a “body” v. “body” roll, letting the mentalist help his buddies.

(I never liked the Ultimate Mentalist BTW, because they changed the rules to limit players, instead of letting the GM do that)

[Sean Waters]

I think I am going to continue to allow character to do it. Yes, there are abuse possibilities, but I trust my players enough to allow them a little leeway. So far its been used when a couple of the character were affect by memory alteration to scan their subconsious to see of the original memories could be regained. Nothing terribly absusive. Besides, if you do it with an untrustworthy mentalist nothing stops them from screwing you over while you have your defenses down.

Page 119 of 5ER specifically forbids it: it does seem abuive to me even in the situation you suggest - assume the ememy mentalist is bright enough to implant a suggestion to fight any re-a;teration, or the subconscious hates being tinkered with whoever is doing it - otherwise you really are substantially weakening mental powers in offensive capacity

[nexus]

Page 119 of 5ER specifically forbids it: it does seem abuive to me even in the situation you suggest - assume the ememy mentalist is bright enough to implant a suggestion to fight any re-a;teration, or the subconscious hates being tinkered with whoever is doing it - otherwise you really are substantially weakening mental powers in offensive capacity

Why does it weaken Mental Powers? They had to figure out there was a possibility of mental suggestion being implanted in the first place to even make the attempt. The character in question had to lower her Ego allow the aiding mentalist even the slightest chance of reaching her subconsious to have a chance to then look for tampering with appropriate skills. It didn't make it automatic. if the enemy mentalist in question had implanted some sort of suggestion the victim either wouldn't have suggested the probe, or fought it and not lowered her ego and/or there would been a Contest of Power situation. Fortunately for the player characters, it wasn't that experienced. IMO, it made the situation more dramatic and interesting.

[ghost-angel]

I'd continue to play advocate to this .. but I really do mostly agree with Dust Raven in that you shouldn't be allowed to actually 'lower' your EGO stat to be more suspectible to Mental Powers ... you can be more willing which would mean a Mentalist only has to achieve a lower level of effect than he would an unwilling, or neutral, target.

I'd let the willingness factor play out the effect level required, isntead of EGO+20 you only need EGO+10, along those lines. It is very close to the same thing.. low level Mentalists aren't going to affect High Ego people. Mid Level might be able to effect them and high level can exert less effort so to speak.

EGO not only represents your Will Power, but it can represent your subconcious, and the subconcious usually doesn't like being messed with.

I was just pointing out that in some cases you can voluntarirly use less than your potential maximum of Stats like STR, PRE and even INT. Thought it's harder to justify with CON, BODY and COM... it's all how you play the game really.

[Sean Waters]

Why does it weaken Mental Powers? They had to figure out there was a possibility of mental suggestion being implanted in the first place to even make the attempt. The character in question had to lower her Ego allow the aiding mentalist even the slightest chance of reaching her subconsious to have a chance to then look for tampering with appropriate skills. It didn't make it automatic. if the enemy mentalist in question had implanted some sort of suggestion the victim either wouldn't have suggested the probe, or fought it and not lowered her ego and/or there would been a Contest of Power situation. Fortunately for the player characters, it wasn't that experienced. IMO, it made the situation more dramatic and interesting.

Presumably the enemy mentalist didn't have the advantage of a cooperative subject? So the enemy mentalist had to contend with full EGO and any mental defence. That being the case, if the PC had only 'the slightest chance' with the lowered EGO, presumably the enemy mentalist was substantially more powerful? Allowing the loweringing of EGO voluntarily therefore undermines the powers of the enemy mentalist. your characters would probably be ticked if the same tactic was used in reverse.

Mind you, that's from a purely 'abuse police' POV: the way you handled it seems entirely appropriate and clearly enhanced the players enjoyment. :thumbup: As a one off ruling it can clearly work well, but I think it would be a charter for abuse if it were adopted generally. :D

[Sean Waters]

Nor do I see how a friendly Mind Control to protect a Brick is an unreasonable thing. Mentalist dueling for control of an individual makes sense to me. We always had a house rule that one mental power could be used to block or jam another in a “body” v. “body” roll, letting the mentalist help his buddies.


It isn't unreasonable: what's unreasonable is giving one party a huge bonus by allowing the 'friendly' mentalist to operate against a substantially lower total: 0 EGO instead of 11 or 14 or 20 or whatever.

Bear in mind that such tactics will be used against the players as well as by them: your team mentalist will be virtually useless if the enemy mentalist can armour his team's minds at a level that can not reasonably be overcome. That's no fun.

[nexus]

Presumably the enemy mentalist didn't have the advantage of a cooperative subject? So the enemy mentalist had to contend with full EGO and any mental defence. That being the case, if the PC had only 'the slightest chance' with the lowered EGO, presumably the enemy mentalist was substantially more powerful? Allowing the loweringing of EGO voluntarily therefore undermines the powers of the enemy mentalist. your characters would probably be ticked if the same tactic was used in reverse.


Actually, it seemed to impress them all the more with power of whatever did it. He did something more complicated, almost instantly without the subject's cooperation (or awareness) that took their mentalist almost an hour and the cooperation of the victim to pull off. And they never would have known to even try it if there hadn't been some good role playing and deduction on the part of the players.

[Sean Waters]

Actually, it seemed to impress them all the more with power of whatever did it. He did something more complicated, almost instantly without the subject's cooperation (or awareness) that took their mentalist almost an hour and the cooperation of the victim to pull off. And they never would have known to even try it if there hadn't been some good role playing and deduction on the part of the players.

Awed players: always worth whatever you did to acheive it. :)

[Constantine]

Personally, I don't care if the book doesn't allow it. If it makes sense to me, and is appropriate to the story, I'm gonna do it. There are all kinds of examples of voluntarily lowering stats in the game. You can lower your speed so you don't drown, you don't have to punch someone at full strength, etc. And yes, if someone had some kind of body control abilities, or has been role-played as having great bodily control, (Beatrix Kiddo, for example, or a martial arts ancient master) than I would allow them to turn off their body, slowly, and kill themselves. I might require some kind of training, or an ego roll, or something, so this sort of thing to work, but I'd generally let it happen...

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'd continue to play advocate to this .. but I really do mostly agree with Dust Raven in that you shouldn't be allowed to actually 'lower' your EGO stat to be more suspectible to Mental Powers ... you can be more willing which would mean a Mentalist only has to achieve a lower level of effect than he would an unwilling, or neutral, target.

I'd let the willingness factor play out the effect level required, isntead of EGO+20 you only need EGO+10, along those lines. It is very close to the same thing.. low level Mentalists aren't going to affect High Ego people. Mid Level might be able to effect them and high level can exert less effort so to speak.



And there you have it. Thats the most elegant solution to the issue I've seen posted.

[Dust Raven]

Personally, I don't care if the book doesn't allow it. If it makes sense to me, and is appropriate to the story, I'm gonna do it. There are all kinds of examples of voluntarily lowering stats in the game. You can lower your speed so you don't drown, you don't have to punch someone at full strength, etc. And yes, if someone had some kind of body control abilities, or has been role-played as having great bodily control, (Beatrix Kiddo, for example, or a martial arts ancient master) than I would allow them to turn off their body, slowly, and kill themselves. I might require some kind of training, or an ego roll, or something, so this sort of thing to work, but I'd generally let it happen...

Such examples aren't examples of lowering a Characteristics, but examples of using less than max of a characteristic. The Characteristic itself doesn't change. For example, if you chose to lower your SPD frm 6 to 2 to avoid drowning (or just to keep the END cost of a FW low), and are then Drain 20 points of SPD, you would now have a SPD of 4 that you are only using 2 of. You would not have a SPD of 0 that you could never raise to 4 again because you can't take an action.

[prestidigitator]

Nor do I see how a friendly Mind Control to protect a Brick is an unreasonable thing. Mentalist dueling for control of an individual makes sense to me. We always had a house rule that one mental power could be used to block or jam another in a “body” v. “body” roll, letting the mentalist help his buddies.
This was a part of the standard system as of 5th ed. Read the description of "Mental Powers" at the beginning of the Powers section (not sure how this changed in Revised). You didn't count Body vs. Body, though. The friendly mentalist had to exceed the enemy's Effect Roll. Or, optionally, the friendly mentalist could apply the penalty (s)he would normally produce on your Ego Roll due to extra Effect on the roll as a bonus to your Breakout Roll. Of course, I guess it is only described as a retroactive thing, but I don't see any reason you can't use the same mechanics in reverse time-order.


It isn't unreasonable: what's unreasonable is giving one party a huge bonus by allowing the 'friendly' mentalist to operate against a substantially lower total: 0 EGO instead of 11 or 14 or 20 or whatever.

Bear in mind that such tactics will be used against the players as well as by them: your team mentalist will be virtually useless if the enemy mentalist can armour his team's minds at a level that can not reasonably be overcome. That's no fun.
It all balances out if you 1.) consider that the level your ally reaches really isn't important; they have to beat the other mentalist's Effect Roll, and 2.) use my suggestion of re-calculating the Effect Roll when a character chooses to change their effective Ego.

Example 1 - If Virrack the Super Weasel decides to drop his Ego to 0 so a friend She Mind can affect him, and she rolls a 15, and then later Virrack decides to raise his Ego back to his starting value of 7, then She Mind's effect drops from an Ego+15 level to a Ego+5 level (BTW, he is also a slave to his Psychological Limitations, and any orders people decide to voice if they don't conflict with the other things affecting him).

Example 2 - If Virrack were affected by an enemy mentalist, Ego Schmack, at his full Ego of 7, and Schmack's Effect Roll was 11, and then later Virrack decides to lower his effective Ego to 0 so She Mind can help him, Schmack's Power instantly raises to the Ego+10 level of effect (or if Ego+10 wouldn't be any more severe given the instruction, illusion, etc., Virrack would gain an instant penalty to his Breakout Rolls--the same, incidentally, as the extra bonus She Mind would be able to add to his Breakout Roll due to the reduced Ego, so she had better roll well!).

Effectively it means there is absolutely no benefit to lowering your Ego when conflicting Mental Powers (and Psychological Limitations) exist. In fact, it is pretty risky and stupid.

[zornwil]

Mental Defense, as a Power, can be turned off at will like any other Power (unless bought Always On, which would only be a -0 because it doesn't really limit the Power).

ECV can be reduced to 0, just as you can reduce DCV to 0 by just standing there. ECV is also reduced to 0 when unconscious.

Breakout rolls are always occuring in the subconscious mind and cannot be consciously or unconsciously "turned off".

EGO, however, it EGO. You can't make it go up or down. Conscious or no.

Let's imagine if we could though, just to point out why we can't. I have an EGO of 30, a master of my own self will. Wanting some hyptonic reinforcement to avoid the affects of one of my psych limits for a short while, I ask the team's mentalist to Mind Control me to act contrary to my Claustraphobia (because we are going into a cave). I reduce my EGO to 0 to give the mentalist an extra 30 effect. Wow, what an effect. I'm not bothered at all by the closing in of the walls of the cave. Unfortunately, I now have an EGO of 0, and can't do anyting at all unless I make an EGO roll. That includes raising my EGO back up to 30. What's more, if my EGO goes back up, I get an automatic breakout roll made at the new EGO because of the sudden change in my psychy.
Great point, and I don't disagree with it in and of itself but...

...really, a strong-willed person is exactly the kind of person who does, in real life as well as any fiction, convince themselves they can prevail against reality, even their own preconceived notions.

Still, they are already getting a bonus for allowing the "to hit" to work so well. And thinking in terms of analogies, there's no real precedent to drop BODY, PD, or ED (not the inherent, native forms), but there has always been a precedent of being able to drop your CV.

This whole level of nuance may be why we don't have inherent Mental Defense, only MD that can be bought and is never really inherent per the core rules (it is in my game and many others, but that's another matter).

I would tend to agree that you could not drop EGO, in the end, Dust Raven. I think also though that in games where MD is inherent (automatic 1/5 EGO) that THIS portion of MD, anyway, should NOT be allowed to be dropped. It is how your mind works, just like PD or ED is how your body works. Where house rules have created inherent MD, they must live and die by that to be consistent.

However, all that being said, I'd probably allow, personally, a character to "encourage" the EGO effect by adding a couple dice or such. I don't think this has come up, ever, in my experience with PCs as targets.

EDIT/PS - no, actually, I think I'd allow the target to drop the LEVEL of EFFECT by one to reflect their increased openness/willingness. I think that makes more sense. Should never apply, of course, where it contradicts a Psych Lim.