Shapeshift accuracy

[Wanderer]

if a character with persistent Shapeshift (say Sight/Hearing/Touch, any human shape), with or without addition of Cellular, Smell, and Radio, but no Imitation, uses it to keep up, and jockey between, multiple alternate identities (e.g. mundane, sanctioned superhero, law-breaking vigilante), are the facades unbreakable (i.e. short of dispelling the power, using Telepathy or a sense unaffected by it, or catching the character off-guard, nobody can ever suspect or prove the character isn't all what he seems), or does he need Disguise/Mimicry to make the change "flawless" ?

[Silbeg]

Interesting question...
Since he isn't trying to imitate someone else, I would allow this to work. More of a SFX thing than anything else. I say this, since it wouldn't require a power to have all of those identities (in a Superhero game).

Is that the character's only use of Shapeshift, or does he also shift into other forms?

If he does shift into other forms, and is expecting to copy someone, he would need either the skills, or the Imitation adder to be able to effectively copy someone.

If this is his only use of the Shapeshift power, I probably wouldn't even require the purchase of the power. At most, I would have him buy the Transform based "Instant Change", but even that wouldn't really be required.

[Hyper-Man]

...snip...
and jockey between, multiple alternate identities (e.g. mundane, sanctioned superhero, law-breaking vigilante)
...snip...

It might depend on how much public speaking he does since speach patterns, common phrases, etc. might be picked up by a good enough detective unless he has acting or something similar to compensate.

HM

[Wanderer]

Interesting question...
Since he isn't trying to imitate someone else, I would allow this to work. More of a SFX thing than anything else. I say this, since it wouldn't require a power to have all of those identities (in a Superhero game).

Is that the character's only use of Shapeshift, or does he also shift into other forms?

If he does shift into other forms, and is expecting to copy someone, he would need either the skills, or the Imitation adder to be able to effectively copy someone.

If this is his only use of the Shapeshift power, I probably wouldn't even require the purchase of the power. At most, I would have him buy the Transform based "Instant Change", but even that wouldn't really be required.


Well, the shapeshift is also meant to offer the character protection from law enforcement and Hunted harassment for vigilantesque activities: e.g. throwing off pursuers at a monent's notice, arriving in a public area disguised without causing alarm, occasional infiltration disguised as a harmless normal. However, Imitation is not added because the character is not envisioned as a spy/infiltrator first and foremost. It's more of an explanation for being able to keep up multiple IDs and moving in public areas without *always* being constantly harassed by big-resources Hunted like Viper, demon, mechanon, primus or until (i.e. justifying having them at 8-, and being a high-profile super). Plus, I like the idea of the character arriving at the crime in progress area disguised as a frail senior or adolescent, and shapeshifting into super form.

Moreover, I think some juicy subplots can be derived by a character with "any human" shapeshift, a bit of Disguise, and "lecherous" Psych Lim. Can we say kink and cheating ;)

[Silbeg]

Well, the shapeshift is also meant to offer the character protection from law enforcement and Hunted harassment for vigilantesque activities: e.g. throwing off pursuers at a monent's notice, arriving in a public area disguised without causing alarm, occasional infiltration disguised as a harmless normal. However, Imitation is not added because the character is not envisioned as a spy/infiltrator first and foremost. It's more of an explanation for being able to keep up multiple IDs and moving in public areas without *always* being constantly harassed by big-resources Hunted like Viper, demon, mechanon, primus or until (i.e. justifying having them at 8-, and being a high-profile super). Plus, I like the idea of the character arriving at the crime in progress area disguised as a frail senior or adolescent, and shapeshifting into super form.

Moreover, I think some juicy subplots can be derived by a character with "any human" shapeshift, a bit of Disguise, and "lecherous" Psych Lim. Can we say kink and cheating ;)

Given all of that, then he should buy the power, IMHO. Was just asking, to make sure...

[Wanderer]

It might depend on how much public speaking he does since speach patterns, common phrases, etc. might be picked up by a good enough detective unless he has acting or something similar to compensate.

HM

Exactly the angle I was curious about. If one does not extend the Shapeshift past the basic Sense groups, there are several uncommon means that can be used to blow up the cover (fingerprints, DNA, chemsniffers, energy signature, telepathy, dogs...) but how easy would for a detective without access to such evidence to realize that the very different-looking Victory the sanctioned U.S. Army superhero, Primacy the ruthless mutant supremacist vigilante, Dr. Osterman the playboy cosmetic surgeon, and Scarlet Rain the superpowered mercenary for the highest bidder/professional wrestler are the same person, just studying public appearances of each ID ?

[Dust Raven]

Exactly the angle I was curious about. If one does not extend the Shapeshift past the basic Sense groups, there are several uncommon means that can be used to blow up the cover (fingerprints, DNA, chemsniffers, energy signature, telepathy, dogs...) but how easy would for a detective without access to such evidence to realize that the very different-looking Victory the sanctioned U.S. Army superhero, Primacy the ruthless mutant supremacist vigilante, Dr. Osterman the playboy cosmetic surgeon, and Scarlet Rain the superpowered mercenary for the highest bidder/professional wrestler are the same person, just studying public appearances of each ID ?

With a little bit of observation and a really good Deduction Roll, a detective can figure anything out.

Basically, without Cellular, the character cannot change his DNA, fingerprints and retina, and anything depending on those cannot be fooled. Certain voice scanners might also not be fooled if they are bought Analyse; although the character can alter his voice, he still has the same vocal cords and a sensitive osiliscope (sp?) will notice the similarity between voices (well, in the hands of a skilled operator). Also, each identity will have the same handwriting.

Other than that, there is always circumstantial evidence. None of these "individuals" are every at the same place at the same time. One of them may appear when another of them is expected to be. Any one of them may slip and say something only one of the other's would know. Any skilled observer (such as someone who's bought and appropriate Analyse Skill) could pick out behaviour quirks, body language, etc. that are identical between all identities.

[Wanderer]

Basically, without Cellular, the character cannot change his DNA, fingerprints and retina, and anything depending on those cannot be fooled. Certain voice scanners might also not be fooled if they are bought Analyse; although the character can alter his voice, he still has the same vocal cords and a sensitive osiliscope (sp?) will notice the similarity between voices (well, in the hands of a skilled operator). Also, each identity will have the same handwriting.


All very good points, except for one thing: supposing a Shapeshift SFX that actually *changes* the body's shape (as opposed to Disguise/Mimicry Super-Skill), the character's shape and length of vocal cords also would change, so vocal analyzers would be always fooled.

[prestidigitator]

For the question of vocal disguise, I believe you just have to affect that Sense (Normal Hearing). But remember, too, that everyone has mannerisms that might be detected. Do you scratch your head when you are confused? Do you always say, "Wow!" when you are surprised? Do you always walk on the curb edge of the sidewalk? You may want to apply some uses of the Acting Skill to get around some of these issues, and perhaps think about when you will need to make some kind of Ego/Pre rolls to avoid doing something that is just instinctive for you.

As to whether it is, "unbreakable?" The answer is no. I can think of one very simple example of something that will give you away unless you employ some other Power(s)--like maybe Images applied to a particular Special Sense--and that is:

Detect: true identity/form
Good luck. :)

[Dust Raven]

All very good points, except for one thing: supposing a Shapeshift SFX that actually *changes* the body's shape (as opposed to Disguise/Mimicry Super-Skill), the character's shape and length of vocal cords also would change, so vocal analyzers would be always fooled.

And the shape and placement of the fingerprints too, and what big eyes and now unrecognizable retnas you have grandma! No. It doesn't work that way. Unless you pay for Cellular, you have the same vocal cords and everything else. They just "look" different.

[prestidigitator]

And the shape and placement of the fingerprints too, and what big eyes and now unrecognizable retnas you have grandma! No. It doesn't work that way. Unless you pay for Cellular, you have the same vocal cords and everything else. They just "look" different.
You don't need cellular to affect your voice. You need to affect Normal Hearing. That's an, "Additional Nontargeting Sense." However a, "vocal analyzer," would probably still be able to identify you without cellular. You would change to all, "outward appearances," though.

[Dust Raven]

I beg to differ. You don't need cellular to affect your voice. You need to affect Normal Hearing. That's an, "Additional Nontargeting Sense."

I didn't say voice. I said vocal cords. You might only need it versus Sight and/or Touch to change the shape of the fingers, but you need cellular to change the fingerprints. The vocal cords are no different. The sound of the voice changes, but the actual vocal cords remain the same (as with the retnas, DNA and other fun stuff).

[prestidigitator]

I didn't say voice. I said vocal cords. You might only need it versus Sight and/or Touch to change the shape of the fingers, but you need cellular to change the fingerprints. The vocal cords are no different. The sound of the voice changes, but the actual vocal cords remain the same (as with the retnas, DNA and other fun stuff).
Sorry. I rather realized this, and edited my post. I don't differ so much as I thought. :D

[Wanderer]

As regards the issue of the voice analysers, I think there is a slight difference in interpreting the rules:

As best as I understand the philosophy of Hero, Cellular just covers the case of the -microscopic and biological in nature- failsafe markers of personal identity: DNA, first and foremost, and, secondarily, fingerprints. It is not necessary to affect voice pattern analysers, that are just a technological refinement (in game terms, adding Analyze to a Sense) of the Hearing Sense Group. On a more general note, I do not think it is correct to assume that adding Analyze to a Sense which is otherwise affected by Shapeshift should enable it to pierce the disguise (unless the Shapeshift SFX clearly calls for it, such as Disguise or Mimicry Super-Skill, as opposed to superhuman or magical body morphing).

E.g. no amount of image or voice recording analysis should enable to recognize a shapeshifted Mystica, T-1000 or Skrull. It might theoretically catch similarities or oddities in the body language or speech pattern (which are part of the character’s behaviour, and hence unaffected by Shapeshift).

Reasoning from SFX, as long as Hearing Shapeshift involves actual body change, the physical shape of the subject’s vocal cords does change, too, so no significant basic similarity in the voice pattern remains for an analyser to identify. Of course, the speech pattern may not change (unless the subject does a conscious effort to alter it, via Acting), but this is not what a voice pattern analyser focuses on.

Moreover, Hearing Shapeshift does involve some kind of physical change n the body’s shape, since the character’s signature to Active Sonar also changes, not just the voice.

[Dust Raven]

Sorry. I rather realized this, and edited my post. I don't differ so much as I thought. :D

:D Okay, sorry if I seemed a bit biting. I just reread my own post and thogh it might have been somewhat, well... biting.

[Dust Raven]

As regards the issue of the voice analysers, I think there is a slight difference in interpreting the rules:

Seems so. I think that vocal cords count as a biological/microscopic change like fingerprints and retnas. I don't really see how it can be viewed as otherwise and not take fingerprints and retnas with them... those are even larger changes to the body, and closer to changing hair color. Vocal cords are more subtle.

[Wanderer]

Seems so. I think that vocal cords count as a biological/microscopic change like fingerprints and retnas. I don't really see how it can be viewed as otherwise and not take fingerprints and retnas with them... those are even larger changes to the body, and closer to changing hair color. Vocal cords are more subtle.

I have similar difficulties in seeing why plugging Analyse to Hearing (or any other Normal Sense) should enable it to defeat the whole purpose of Shape Shift.

About Cellular: it would maybe have been best to limit its purpose to cover just DNA. But I can see what rough guideline inspired Steve: on one hand, the macroscopical body features that may be detected by normal human senses: look, body texture/surface, voice, smell, energy signature. On the other, the biological subtle differences in rather tiny/microscopic individual patterns: DNA, blood markers, retina, fingerprinting, which to be altered require a rather higher degree of body control. Comparing the level of self-control that is needed to consistently rework one's fingerprints on one hand, to stretch and and thicken one's vocal cords to cause your whole voice pattern to change, OTOH, well, it's wholly different.

Moreover, allowing technological Analyze Hearing to pierce body morph Shape Shift seems wholly contradictory with the philosophy and nature of the power: it's exactly the same of allowing image analysis of a character's face to pierce Sight Shapeshift: it doesn't make sense. If the body's shape has changed, there's nothing the analyse software can "lock on" to realize that the face, or voice, is innatural, fake, or not the "real thing".

On a rule level, allowing Analyze to make Senses able to pierce Shape Shift seems an abusive depowering to me: if you wish to defeat a Shapeshift, use exotic Detects or uncommon Sense Groups that aren't affected by the SS: put ranged DNA detectors, chemsniffers, energy scanners on the entry to the secret base, NOT fit an Analyze Faces & Voices Patterns software to your camera system and expect it to blow the shapeshifter' infiltrator's cover. At least, set it up as a super-tech Detect Power that isn't affected by the physical body change (Detect Body Language and Speech Mannerisms). Shapeshift can never change the way the character's behavior.

[Dust Raven]

I have similar difficulties in seeing why plugging Analyse to Hearing (or any other Normal Sense) should enable it to defeat the whole purpose of Shape Shift.

If that's the case, you can just require a seperate Detect to cover the vocal cords, just as you world with fingerprints and retnas.

[Mike W]

I think Shapeshift being built like an illusion/image doesn't make sense. You are not making someone see something that is not there, you're changing what is there. You aren't making it look like you have black hair when it is still blonde; you really have black hair. So the idea of "seeing through" a shapeshift makes little sense, unless you are dealing with something that either works on a microscopic level or is some other "outre" sense like mental awareness(his mind looks the same) or some kind of "lifeforce" or "bio-signature" reading. Then, maybe it works. Although cellular imitation might even defeat some of those senses.

[Wanderer]

If that's the case, you can just require a seperate Detect to cover the vocal cords, just as you world with fingerprints and retnas.

That would be more acceptble, but I'd require such a Detect to be based on a SFX signficantly different from enhancement of normal hearing: a Detect True Voice created with a Magic or Cosmic Power VPP would be acceptable, while a technological SFX (especially one based on "realistic", not super-, tech) would be certainly not.

To defeat Shape Shift, you should mainly rely on biological microscopic markers (if it hadn't cellular), Sense Groups it doesn't affect, or truly customized and dedicated Detect superpowers. Mundane Tech should be powerless vs. it as the normal senses of normals are.

[nexus]

When you add something like Anaylze to a Normal Sense its not a Normal Sense anymore. Its incredibly powerful, particularly if the sense is already discriminatory. Analytical Sight could distinguiush unbeleivably fine differences in detail, color, distance, speed, etc. You could possibly pick even the tiny "mistakes" that shapeshift leaves behind to whatever sense its trying to fool, if its not purchased in ceullar and imitate. Even if your sfx is "actually changes shape" that doesn't mean your change is perfect.

Look at Wolverine and Mystique (If this has been changed or retconned, forgive me). She apparently does have Shape shift vs Smell since "normal" people (those without enhanced senses) have no chance of detecting her scent her scent is off, but Wolverine with his discrimatory (and possibly analytical) smell can detect her on a successful perception roll (Or he could last time I saw them together).

This would include vocal scanners, imo, but this is mainly a special effects thing since the difference between "normal tech" and "super tech" in Hero is simply, sfx. Normals are "helpless" is a genre convention in some campaigns, not a rule of Champions, again. IMO.

[Wanderer]

When you add something like Anaylze to a Normal Sense its not a Normal Sense anymore. Its incredibly powerful, particularly if the sense is already discriminatory. Analytical Sight could distinguiush unbeleivably fine differences in detail, color, distance, speed, etc. You could possibly pick even the tiny "mistakes" that shapeshift leaves behind to whatever sense its trying to fool, if its not purchased in ceullar and imitate. Even if your sfx is "actually changes shape" that doesn't mean your change is perfect.

A somewhat valid point, but on the other hand, one could raise the equally valid point that even an Analytical Sense is not necessarily able to pick up enough tiny imperfections to be able to recognize that the face/voice the character is currently having is a "fake", much less recognize the true identity of the character.

This is even more relevant taking into account that according to the original issue, we're discussing the case of Shapeshift that is used to disguise a character a) as an orginal aternate identity and b) an anonymous face in the corwd, not imitating other people, so the Analytical Sense has even less of a "template" to rely upon.


Look at Wolverine and Mystique (If this has been changed or retconned, forgive me). She apparently does have Shape shift vs Smell since "normal" people (those without enhanced senses) have no chance of detecting her scent her scent is off, but Wolverine with his discrimatory (and possibly analytical) smell can detect her on a successful perception roll (Or he could last time I saw them together).

This proves nothing. Normal human Smell isn't able to identify people by scent, so Mystique doesn't need Smell Shapeshift to avoid recognition. When you have Sight, Hearing, and Touch SS, a normal is left completely clueless (unless they notice their dog is acting strange in the character's presence). Wolverine, with his bloodhound-like, fully discriminatory (I dunno if a dog's smell would warrant Analyze) smell is able to recognize her.


This would include vocal scanners, imo, but this is mainly a special effects thing since the difference between "normal tech" and "super tech" in Hero is simply, sfx. Normals are "helpless" is a genre convention in some campaigns, not a rule of Champions, again. IMO.

Unless Shapeshift is able to fool normals' senses (and their normal tech basic aids/equivalents, like security cameras, microphones, and the like), the power has nor real signficant value. To make SS effectively foolproof vs. normals one would still need Cellular, since that enables to defy realistic criminology methods (fingerprinting, DNA, blood type). Adding Smell and Radio completely makes it so, since you can then fool guard dogs, and "borderline super" advanced tech like chemsniffers and energy signature detectors.

That normals are effectively helpless against supers and "only a super can stop a super" is a genre convention that, in varying degrees, is at the base of the supers genre: among other things, it explains why superheroes are utterly necessary for keeping supervillains from quickly taking over society and/or throwing it into anarchy. In varying degrees since the degree of the "puny humans" factor is dependent on the character's power level: very roughly, at Standard, police cannot effectively stop a super; at Very High Powered/Cosmic, basic military stuff cannot effectively stop a super; at High Powered Cosmic (1000+ pts.), nothing less of nuclear can effectively bother a super.

To sum it up, I think that maybe this would be a good topic to send to Steve for a final ruling, namely:

A) Whether a "body does actually change" sfx Shapeshift needs Cellular to defy a "normal tech" sfx voiceprint analyzer

B) Whether adding Analyze enables a normal sense to pierce a "body does actually change" sfx Shapeshift

Do you agree ?

[SleepyDrug]

To sum it up, I think that maybe this would be a good topic to send to Steve for a final ruling, namely:

A) Whether a "body does actually change" sfx Shapeshift needs Cellular to defy a "normal tech" sfx voiceprint analyzer

B) Whether adding Analyze enables a normal sense to pierce a "body does actually change" sfx Shapeshift

Do you agree ?

I agree with A but not B. If the body has actually changed than it is truely different. Analyze can't allow a sense to detect what used to be, just what is.

[Wanderer]

An aside but related issue might be

C) How much would be worth a limited Cellular Adder that works against fingerprints, retina prints, (according to which ruling one gives, even voice prints), but not DNA (and blood type): the power can reshape even the minute details of the character's body, but not biological markers ? (tentatively, "not vs. DNA", -1).

I'm realizing that all these topics might be relavant issues for Ultimate Metamorph, and/or an Herophile column.

[nexus]

A somewhat valid point, but on the other hand, one could raise the equally valid point that even an Analytical Sense is not necessarily able to pick up enough tiny imperfections to be able to recognize that the face/voice the character is currently having is a "fake", much less recognize the true identity of the character.


I would say then that would be determined by the Perception roll to use that sense. I don't believe anyone here is saying that it would be automatic. Just that its a possibility, nor is anyone saying that the character "true" idenity would be revealed. The sense user would just know something is up.




This proves nothing. Normal human Smell isn't able to identify people by scent, so Mystique doesn't need Smell Shapeshift to avoid recognition. When you have Sight, Hearing, and Touch SS, a normal is left completely clueless (unless they notice their dog is acting strange in the character's presence). Wolverine, with his bloodhound-like, fully discriminatory (I dunno if a dog's smell would warrant Analyze) smell is able to recognize her.


The Point was,Wolverine's sense of smell, with its discrimatory, analytical IS able to peirce her shapeshift and according to Champions, if you didn't have Shapeshif vs Smell, "Normal" human smell could attempt to determine your true idenity. Its a rules thing but it never comes up because how many people do you know that try to determine things by smell? Smell is listed as "discrimiatory" for free already as "normal" people can distinguish between things by smell. Using smell in a "combat" situation for a human being is at a huge Perception penalty so most people can't pull it off, but they technically have a chance.



Unless Shapeshift is able to fool normals' senses (and their normal tech basic aids/equivalents, like security cameras, microphones, and the like), the power has nor real signficant value. To make SS effectively foolproof vs. normals one would still need Cellular, since that enables to defy realistic criminology methods (fingerprinting, DNA, blood type). Adding Smell and Radio completely makes it so, since you can then fool guard dogs, and "borderline super" advanced tech like chemsniffers and energy signature detectors.


And I repeat, a sense with analytical isn't "normal". A voice analyzer isn't a "normal" sense its far more perceptive than unaltered hearing. If you want a "Perfect" change without imperfection, get Cellular.



That normals are effectively helpless against supers and "only a super can stop a super" is a genre convention that, in varying degrees, is at the base of the supers genre: among other things, it explains why superheroes are utterly necessary for keeping supervillains from quickly taking over society and/or throwing it into anarchy. In varying degrees since the degree of the "puny humans" factor is dependent on the character's power level: very roughly, at Standard, police cannot effectively stop a super; at Very High Powered/Cosmic, basic military stuff cannot effectively stop a super; at High Powered Cosmic (1000+ pts.), nothing less of nuclear can effectively bother a super.


As this is a massive thread derailing, I'll just say I disagree.

As for asking Steve Long, why not? I'm just spouting opinions.

[nexus]

My basic point is I don't feel a sense with Discrimatory or Analytical is mundane anymore. Sense are just "Everyman" Powers. One you start adding modifier they become not mundane. The confusion seems to be from using the term normal to mean both unaltered and mundane (Non "super"). A 2d6 RKA is a 2d6 RKA. If one is a eye laser and the other high powerd rilfle it doesn't make any basic difference in how they work in the rules without campaign rules or GM's fiat. I think analytical senses have a chance (their per roll) of penetrating Base line shapeshift regardless of sfx origin unless that is changed by campaign (genre) rules or GM fiat.



C) How much would be worth a limited Cellular Adder that works against fingerprints, retina prints, (according to which ruling one gives, even voice prints), but not DNA (and blood type): the power can reshape even the minute details of the character's body, but not biological markers ? (tentatively, "not vs. DNA", -1).


I'm realizing that all these topics might be relavant issues for Ultimate Metamorph, and/or an Herophile column.


I think -1 is a bit high. It would depend on how often the character leaves traces and if his DNA is even on file and how common such testing is, which I don't think would be very unless he plans on committing a alot of rapes and murders in his superhero career.

And the Ulm Meta would be a terrific place to address all these concerns.

[Wanderer]

The Point was,Wolverine's sense of smell, with its discrimatory, analytical IS able to peirce her shapeshift and according to Champions, if you didn't have Shapeshif vs Smell, "Normal" human smell could attempt to determine your true idenity. Its a rules thing but it never comes up because how many people do you know that try to determine things by smell? Smell is listed as "discrimiatory" for free already as "normal" people can distinguish between things by smell. Using smell in a "combat" situation for a human being is at a huge Perception penalty so most people can't pull it off, but they technically have a chance.

Well, this of course is a good ruling. If the character doesn't have Smell Shapeshift, any other character can attempt to identify him by smell, but it should be at a massive penalty for normal humans. As a comparison, normal human smell can be used in combat at -5, and using it for recognize a shapeshifter should be even more difficult, since identification requires more acuity than targeting (dunno how much of a penalty. -7? -9? maybe another subquestion for Steve).

[Wanderer]

My basic point is I don't feel a sense with Discrimatory or Analytical is mundane anymore. Sense are just "Everyman" Powers. One you start adding modifier they become not mundane. The confusion seems to be from using the term normal to mean both unaltered and mundane (Non "super"). A 2d6 RKA is a 2d6 RKA. If one is a eye laser and the other high powerd rilfle it doesn't make any basic difference in how they work in the rules without campaign rules or GM's fiat. I think analytical senses have a chance (their per roll) of penetrating Base line shapeshift regardless of sfx origin unless that is changed by campaign (genre) rules or GM fiat.

And to add even more ambiguity, Steve has set up mundane Senses as "partially Discriminatory", a category that gives me headaches every time I think about it :( I think much of our disagreement comes from the fact senses and mundane tech are areas where the pure rules non-sfx constructs and the unavoidable RL references cross over and muddle. Exactly what defines "mundane human" and "mundane tech" in hero terms ? They are sfx, but one that crosses over into rules territory (see the definitions of cellular and infrared). This is the same kind of difficulty you face when you try to define what "Only For/Against Mundane Weapons/Tech/Objects" exactly means. E.g. does a defense with it covers nuclear weapons ?


I think -1 is a bit high. It would depend on how often the character leaves traces and if his DNA is even on file and how common such testing is, which I don't think would be very unless he plans on committing a alot of rapes and murders in his superhero career.

Then, taking into account the modern, CSI-like levels of advanced criminology that dark Champions makes Hero canon, which value would be right for a Champions or Dark Champions setting ? -1/2 ? -3/4 ?


And the Ulm Meta would be a terrific place to address all these concerns.

Let's hope that Steve Long and/or the future author(s) of Ultimate Metamorph, whomever they may be, are reading this thread and taking notes :)

[nexus]

And to add even more ambiguity, Steve has set up mundane Senses as "partially Discriminatory", a category that gives me headaches every time I think about it :( I think much of our disagreement comes from the fact senses and mundane tech are areas where the pure rules non-sfx constructs and the unavoidable RL references cross over and muddle. Exactly what defines "mundane human" and "mundane tech" in hero terms ? They are sfx, but one that crosses over into rules territory (see the definitions of cellular and infrared). This is the same kind of difficulty you face when you try to define what "Only For/Against Mundane Weapons/Tech/Objects" exactly means. E.g. does a defense with it covers nuclear weapons ?


Yeah, this is an area where Hero's generic nature works against it for some styles of play. There is no hard and fast line where Mundane stops and supernatural begins for allot of things. For all its flaws, Aberrant Storyteller did pull that off pretty well for its setting.



Then, taking into account the modern, CSI-like levels of advanced criminology that dark Champions makes Hero canon, which value would be right for a Champions or Dark Champions setting ? -1/2 ? -3/4 ?


Honestly, its hard for me to really make a call as I don't know what you're character's MO would be. And even if his DNA is idenified unless it can be connected with his secret ID its not going to give it away unless he's caught (when its pretty much blown anyway). In his day to day activties its not going to be that limiting at all, so if I had to make a call as GM I'd say -1/4 but that's really a shot in the dark.

[Wanderer]

Yeah, this is an area where Hero's generic nature works against it for some styles of play. There is no hard and fast line where Mundane stops and supernatural begins for allot of things. For all its flaws, Aberrant Storyteller did pull that off pretty well for its setting.

This is one of the main reasons why setting up a unified cause for superpowers (be it psi, quantum powers, or magic) is a really good idea (another is that you minimize the cheesiness factor). Apart from its truly superb setting, another strong point of Aberrant was that it had a believable, broad origin that allowed for justifying pretty much all the classic superhuman concepts.


Honestly, its hard for my to really make a call as I don't know what you're character's MO would be. And even if his DNA is idenified unless it can be connected with his secret ID its not going to give it away unless he's caught (when its pretty much blown anyway). In his day to day activties its not going to be that limiting at all, so if I had to make a call as GM I'd say -1/4 but that's really a shot in the dark.

That's why it might be a good idea to bring even this point up to Steve, or for addressing it in Ult Meta. There are several SFX that might justify Cellular but not for it affecting DNA and blood type, and if one uses Criminology in Champions biological traces are an issue.

[Basil]

Having read the whole thread, I've got to say one thing: you're all off on the wrong track. What the OP needs is Multiform.

One Multiform for the usual forms, and another inside a limited VPP for the "just a face in the crowd" routine. Or, make a half-a-dozen "Joe/Jane Nobody"s and use just one Multiform.

Since 5th Ed. so-called "Shapeshift" is a broken POS, avoid it whenever possible.

[Wanderer]

That normals are effectively helpless against supers and "only a super can stop a super" is a genre convention that, in varying degrees, is at the base of the supers genre: among other things, it explains why superheroes are utterly necessary for keeping supervillains from quickly taking over society and/or throwing it into anarchy. In varying degrees since the degree of the "puny humans" factor is dependent on the character's power level: very roughly, at Standard, police cannot effectively stop a super; at Very High Powered/Cosmic, basic military stuff cannot effectively stop a super; at High Powered Cosmic (1000+ pts.), nothing less of nuclear can effectively bother a super.


As this is a massive thread derailing, I'll just say I disagree.


Hmm, do you think this point would be a good topic for a Champions thread ?

[Sean Waters]

The thing with shapeshift, no matter how many adders and sense groups you tack on, there will always be someone with a sense that can see through it (unusual sense group 'detect shapeshift', for example), or just hitting someone with a 'drain shapeshift' would do it (for someone who does not have a 'set' form then buy inherent, which also stops the drain trick...). Moreover, the cost of covering as many bases as you can gets utterly ludicrous.

If you have shapeshift (hearing) then no one can detect that your voice is the same voice you were using earlier, but you can still get caught out using familiar phrases or phrasing: you should either buy imitation or the mimicry skill.

Multiform works far better as a perfect disguise because you really do have different bodies but if the sfx is that it is basically a super-shapeshift then you have the same problems: you tend to use certain phrases or words, or speech patterns, and even if your voice sounds entirely different the way you talk may be connected - again use imitation or mimicry to avoid.

Mind you there are powers that can detect multiforms too so even that is not completely safe, but it is certainly a cheaper version of a 'disguise' power.

Of course, unless you have duplication or teleportation or something then a detective might just put it together if Captain Uber goes into a phone box and Herny Blank comes out...as someone already said, with sufficient observation and deduction skill ANYTHING can be sussed...in a world where superpowers are accepted, this sort of thing probably is not that uncommon...

Anyway, no one seems to have mentioned the other BIG giveaway if you use shapeshift rather than multiform: powers.

Shapeshift is not likely to be your only power, so if you maintain multiple identities, your Purple Power Pulse might be a bit of a dead giveaway...

[Wanderer]

Excellent points, Sean, except.

Altering your speech (how you talk, not how you sound) and body language is indeed never affected by shapeshift (nor Multiform, unless forms have widly different personalities, which isn't the case). But the right Skill to deal with it is Acting, not Disguise nor Mimicry (for the same reason, Imitation cannot help you here).

Multiform and Persistent Shapeshifting are equivalent as regards "depth" of body change. Unless personality, skills, memories, or other powers or characteristics also change, which isn't the case. Personally I find Multiform one of the most burdening and obnoxious Powers to work with in Hero (apart from the fact it's a bitch to use in HD). So I try to avoid using it unless aboslutely necessary. Whenever poessible, I prefer to use Shapeshift, Accidental Change, OIHID, and Limited "Only In Form X" Powers/Characteristics. it's only when forms have radically different personalities that Multiform becomes necessary.

Duplication... well, that's an interesting Power, and not so hard to use as Multiform. The difficulty is coming up with a good enough SFX to justify "combat" Duplication (as opposed to, say, "resurrection" Duplication, where cloning or magic are always appropriate).

Shapeshift isn't so expensive. With a couple Limitations

19** Body Manipulation: Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing and Touch Groups, any human form), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (52 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 1/2), Requires An EGO Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4)*

you can throw any kind of impenetrable to normal human main senses disguises, maintain multiple identities, become an anonymous face in the crowd, and impress the ladies in bed :) (or become one)

As regards the powers giveaway, well, it depends. Some Powers (such as super-strength) aren't so distinctive in nature, and while if you don't have Radio Shapeshift the "energy signature" of your powers is as distinctive as your smell, the "sensory" appearance of your powers often isn't so distinguishing at all. Yeah, you pack a Purple energy beam, just like 26% of all the energy projectors out there. It's an additional clue, like an odd speech quirk, but it isn't a dead giveaway.

[Steve]

Altering your speech (how you talk, not how you sound) and body language is indeed never affected by shapeshift (nor Multiform, unless forms have widly different personalities, which isn't the case). But the right Skill to deal with it is Acting, not Disguise nor Mimicry (for the same reason, Imitation cannot help you here).

Actually, I would disagree with this, since there is a way to use Shapeshift to adjust mannerisms and speech patterns, by Shapeshifting the Mental Group. Actual Psychological Limitations would not have to be changed (unless we are talking Multiple Personality Disorder), but I could see a Mental Shapeshift as being sufficient to modify mannerisms and speech patterns. It would be like the character doing a form of extreme method acting, especially if we are talking a specific set of identities that the character slips into and out of on a regular basis.

For more real world campaigns, Method Acting could be the name for a Mental Shapeshift that lets the character assume other identities and be flawless at it.

[Wanderer]

Actually, I would disagree with this, since there is a way to use Shapeshift to adjust mannerisms and speech patterns, by Shapeshifting the Mental Group. Actual Psychological Limitations would not have to be changed (unless we are talking Multiple Personality Disorder), but I could see a Mental Shapeshift as being sufficient to modify mannerisms and speech patterns. It would be like the character doing a form of extreme method acting, especially if we are talking a specific set of identities that the character slips into and out of on a regular basis.

For more real world campaigns, Method Acting could be the name for a Mental Shapeshift that lets the character assume other identities and be flawless at it.

Well, it depends on whether you deem the mental patterns responsible for speech patterns and body language belonging either to the "surface thoughts" layer that Mental Shapeshift affects, or to the untouched deeper one where memories and personality reside. I can see arguments for both ways: OOH, they are mostly unconscious, OTOH, they can be consciously changed, with some effort, by method actors. So you could rule both ways. If you have a good enough SFX for combined Mental, Smell, Radio, Hearing, Sight and Touch SS, you may do it. Otherwise, rely on Acting.

[Sean Waters]

...
Quite right on the acting: didn't check beforehand, good catch.

Your costing on shapeshift is a bit off as you need to halve the limtiation for extra time as it is a constant power, so it'll cost 26, still not too bad.

I think there probably is a sense group you could include in shapeshifting to mimic manerisms and speech patterns, but I'm not sure what it is :)

On the powers thing, it is more the combination of powers and power levels that would give you away. In and of itself the Purple Power Pulse may not flag you up but add in your superleap and your Life Support (or whatever) and the odds seriously narrow: any serious database will flag up a link. Even superstrength will probably have power levels that can be distinctive.

At the end of the day no power is completely foolproof, and if the GM wants you to be found out, you will be (and as a GM character, you wouldn't want the players, with sufficient ingenuity, to be completely foxed) - and that's assuming random chance doesn't intervene and have someone simply see you changing.

I hear what you say about multiform - don't like it as 'the perfect shapeshift' as it often slows down and complicates play, and infringes on shapeshifts territory, but it can do things that shapeshift can't - like change powers. :)

[Wanderer]

Your costing on shapeshift is a bit off as you need to halve the limtiation for extra time as it is a constant power, so it'll cost 26, still not too bad.

oh, dear. How absent-minded of me. Here's then

19 Body Manipulation: Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing and Touch Groups, any human form), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (52 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, Character May Take No Other Actions, -1), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Requires An EGO Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4)


I think there probably is a sense group you could include in shapeshifting to mimic manerisms and speech patterns, but I'm not sure what it is :)

mental may indeed be your best bet.


On the powers thing, it is more the combination of powers and power levels that would give you away. In and of itself the Purple Power Pulse may not flag you up but add in your superleap and your Life Support (or whatever) and the odds seriously narrow: any serious database will flag up a link. Even superstrength will probably have power levels that can be distinctive.

of course a sufficient amount of deduction and diligent detective legwork may prove the undoing of the most skillful metamorph. But the power still keeps excellent value, such as keepng onclusive proof at bay and offering plausible deniability. "No, of course Omniman our reliable team member isn't related to the criminal vigilante the Retributioner in any way. Even suggesting it is offensive and libellous !"


I hear what you say about multiform - don't like it as 'the perfect shapeshift' as it often slows down and complicates play, and infringes on shapeshifts territory, but it can do things that shapeshift can't - like change powers. :)

Yeah, but Triggered Aid/Succor and Limited "Only In Form X" Power can still work wonders for form-linked powers.

[Sean Waters]

I tend to use arrayed multipowers, but whatever works :)

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. Lots of topics. I don't think a Shapeshift vs. the Mental Group would disguise mannerisms and speech patterns. That would simply disguise you to Powers like Telepathy and Mind Scan. I think this is something you really have to rely on pure skill for. I would call it Acting for the most part, with other Skills possibly playing a Complementary roll. Even in supers games there is a place for Skills!

I wouldn't have qualms with Analyze being able to detect someone using Shapeshift. I agree that it wouldn't be automatic, nor would it likely tell you everything automatically (being able to process all the details might require some Skills), and I might not even allow it for casual perception. Analyze is a powerful thing, but I tend to think of it as more of a non-persistent aspect of a sense. You choose consciously when to use it, based on other incoming information.

As for smell, I think it is the least discriminatory scent we have as humans, and I hope it wasn't listed as having Discriminatory for free (don't have my book with me). Just because you can tell flowers from dung doesn't mean you can recognize someone by smell (unless there is something awefully distinctive about his or her scent). I suspect Wolverine has Discriminatory on his scent, but not Analyze. He doesn't go around smelling people and telling you the chemical composition of their perfume, although he might recognize something familiar or unusual about it. I doubt Mystique has normal smell as part of her Shapeshift. Like I said, it is just too difficult for most people to identify people by scent (and thus easy to disguise yourself if you feel the need, too--a little cologne, anyone?). That Wolverine can detect her is a good indication that she didn't bother to add the sense to her Power.

I don't have a problem with the Shapeshift Power. I think you guys are arguing Special Effects a lot instead of actual mechanics. Who cares if you are actually changing your physical form? What affect does that have on the system? If you want to change your form in all aspects, add all senses to it (including touch), and include the Cellular Adder. That's how you make the mechanics match your particular view of the SFX. I think the mechanics support a change to your actual form in that they don't allow a Per roll to foil the Power like Images does. (BTW, you could easily build an Images Power to disguise yourself too, but it would be subject to detection by "ordinary means.")