Hero System For Dummies

[bblackmoor]

Somewhat inspired by the D&D For Dummies (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29572) thread, I was wondering what Hero System For Dummies might need to address. Here are a few of my thoughts.

Core Concepts

the five point rule
2x range = 1/2 size = -2 penalty to hit
the bell curve
attacks cost more than defenses
special effects are distinct from game mechanics
game mechanics are just approximations for what really happens


System Basics

rolling to hit
rolling damage
using a skill
building a power


Clarifications

Disadvantage vs. Limitation
Susceptibility vs. Vulnerability
rolling high is good, except when it's not
everything has a defense, except when it doesn't
figuring out "Killing Attacks"
why attacks and defenses need to be balanced
why there is no "master list" of Powers or Disadvantages
why the value of a Disadvantage depends on who has it


General Advice

eschew complexity -- strive for simplicity
be willing to fudge the details
points are not important
focus on the game, not the rules
focus on the character, not the character sheet
"house rules" are a last resort


Polishing The Rough Spots

eliminate "Killing Attacks" as a separate Power
use an alternate ("rolling high is good") attack roll
...


That's just off the top of my head.

What do you think Hero System For Dummies should include?

[bblackmoor]

Incidentally, I left out the subject of "being a good player" on purpose, thinking that subject could be a book in itself. That, and there is significant difference of opinion on what constitutes being a good player, and I don't feel like fighting that battle today.

[Blue]

Back on the overall topic... I think ANY book... ANY at all... that might get people interested in the hobby... D&D For Dummies, The Book of Vile Darkness, SIM City the RPG (if there were one)... I think it's all good.

Doesn't mean I'll buy them all. I just think exposure is good, and anything that seems less daunting to people is good.

I may be alone, but the size of "Dummies" books always put me off. I think I owned one... a small Dummies HTML book many years ago... but generally I buy such a thing only if I already have the product and still dont' understand it. Though here it's got too much Kitsch value not to buy it.

[bblackmoor]

I may be alone, but the size of "Dummies" books always put me off.

The only one I own is Database Development For Dummies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764507524/rpglibrary/), which is around 320 pages including the index. I bought it as a primer, and to fill in a few gaps in my knowledge since I am mainly self-taught, and have learned database developmnt in the course of doing it as an adjunct to other projects. For me, it was a worthwhile purchase. I really don't know how it compares to any of the other Dummies books.

[keithcurtis]

At last Dundracon, Derek Hiemforth had an excellent one-or-two-page rundown of the core Hero concepts. He might be enticed into posting it.

Keith "Paging the Rhinobunny!" Curtis

[bblackmoor]

At last Dundracon, Derek Hiemforth had an excellent one-or-two-page rundown of the core Hero concepts. He might be enticed into posting it.

That could be interesting. I have a one-page "Hero Cheat Sheet" around here somewhere, which I wrote for a game group with whom I used to play Champions, but that's different from what the Dummies books do (or at least, the Dummies book I own).

Ah, here we go: http://www.rpglibrary.org/search.php?sfor=hero+cheat+sheet

Hmm. I need to update this to use the simpler attack roll so I can take it to cons. I've been getting more new Hero players than experienced players, and the attack roll is a real hurdle for most people.

Anyway, it just says what dice to roll. It doesn't really explain any concepts, why the system works as it generally does, or when it breaks its own precedents. That's the sort of thing a Dummies book might actually be good for.

[TheQuestionMan]

Two complete Character Sheets of each Archetype, A Battle Map, and the Free Stuff Combat Reference tabels.

Roll the Dice Man

QM

[Curufea]

I've always had problems with the character sheets for Hero - too much like spreadsheets (they daunt new players tremendously). I've been wondering about a plain english version :-
The regular charsheet is still there, mainly for the GM's use but also for the players who know the rules, but the players have the option of using the plain english version instead (or as well as).

It would be helpful to have, as well as example archetypes, the same archetype written in plain english for comparison.

[David Blue]

I've always had problems with the character sheets for Hero - too much like spreadsheets (they daunt new players tremendously). I've been wondering about a plain english version ...I agree, and good idea.

Hero isn't math. (Actually it doesn't work as math, the rounding is wrong.) But it looks like it might be - cryptic and scary!

Use complete words, and charts (like Sidekick, bless that lovely book, uses a chart to simplify rolling to hit), and never let the players look at an equation, lest terror take them.

I think new players need this, printed out in a fixed width font, on the Dummies tear-out quick-reference page:

3D6 ODDS OCV +/-
3 - 1% HIT
4 - 2% bonus +7
5 - 5% bonus +6
6 - 9% bonus +5
7 - 16% bonus +4
8 - 26% bonus +3
9 - 37% bonus +2
10 - 50% bonus +1
11 - 62% +/-0
12 - 74% minus -1
13 - 84% minus -2
14 - 91% minus -3
15 - 95% minus -4
16 - 98% minus -5
17 - 99% minus -6
18 - 00% MISS

Roll the dice, add the bonus or take away the minus from your OCV, and that's the DCV you (would) hit. Tell the gamemaster the DCV you would hit, and he or she will take it from there.

Don't bother with that +11 stuff, it looks like a scary equation. My way is the simplest.

It would be better to roll high. Then the bonuses are what you rolled, ignoring the tens: 10=+0, 11=+1, 12=+2, 13=+3, 14=+4, 15=+5, 16=+6, 17=+7, 18=hit! And the minuses just count down from 10: 9=-1, 8=-2, 7=-3, 6=-4, 5=-5, 4=-6, 3=miss! Perfect - that's as simple as the mechanic can be made. But that might shock and disorient veteran Hero players.

In either case, I think you need the percentage chance to roll (as good as or better than) any given number right next to it.

It is not intuitively obvious to a % or d20 player what chance 7 is. 7 is a good chance on d20, and it becomes 35% in % roll-low. So, might it be a decent chance to hit on 3d6? It's easy to forget that it isn't. Consequently, how do you know when you need to shift your levels to OCV, or DCV, or even to dodge?

Put the critical information together, for pity's sake! Let they eye take it all in in one glance.

[bblackmoor]

use an alternate ("rolling high is good") attack roll

This is the "alternate attack roll" to which I referred, which I first saw (if I recall correctly) in Champions: The New Millenium.

OCV + 3d6 must meet or exceed DCV +10

I have even contemplated simply adding 10 to the DCV of all characters, making it

OCV + 3d6 must meet or exceed DCV

As far as I can recall, DCV is never used except for this one roll. So there's really no reason not to simply add 10 to it and make everyone's life a little simpler. I may be forgetting something, though.

[David Blue]

As far as I can recall, DCV is never used except for this one roll. So there's really no reason not to simply add 10 to it and make everyone's life a little simpler. I may be forgetting something, though.I suspect you are.

What happens when someone becomes half defensive combat value, such as when you end a dive-for-cover (prone)? Then it's rough, because not only do they lose half of the combat value figured from their dexterity but they lose half that +10 - effectively an additional +5 to hit them.

I would not agree with that. As prestidigitator ably explained flipped die rolls here, you should not need to change anything about characters are written or how the game plays.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29611

[bblackmoor]

What happens when someone becomes half defensive combat value, such as when you end a dive-for-cover (prone)?

Ah, there you are. I thought I was forgetting something. So DCV + 10 is as simple as it will get without making changes to the game system. Still, it's a whole lot simpler than the official method.

[David Blue]

So DCV + 10 is as simple as it will get without making changes to the game system. Still, it's a whole lot simpler than the official method.Yes it is. So we've solved that one. Onward!

I think we want somewhere a frank confession of some of the things that Hero does not do well. (Of course, you have to get that past hordes of people who think Hero does do everything well.)

Champions is good on this. Can you get the artful dodgers, like Daredevil, to work well? Not really. Can you get the all-offence blasters like Cyclops and Havoc to work well? Not really. Can you get the Invulnerable Man to work well in a team context? Not really. It's better to be aware of the swamps and go around them, especially when you are new to the game, than to expect that Hero will do everything equally expertly, and get upset and confused when your efforts misfire.

So build a balanced character. (Advice on this.)

Provide at least three completed character sheets of more or less the same martial artist built at three levels of power, up to super-heroic, and thumbnail stats for a balanced foe, or perhaps better yet for two thugs who between them add up to a challenge at each level. Have a hex-map - it may not need to be bigger than the page-size of a dummies book for this. With a narrated fight to follow, and the chance to practice on the micro-map, the beginner could reduce his confusion as to what is supposed to happen in combat. Maybe.

I just realised we should be asking the newbies here - what makes you feel like a dummy, and what help would you want?

[bblackmoor]

As prestidigitator ably explained flipped die rolls here, you should not need to change anything about characters are written or how the game plays.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29611

By the way, that thread is new to me. The alternate hit rolls are old news to me, but prestidigitator introduces some new alternates that I have not seen before. Thanks for the link.

[Tim]

Has anyone figured a way to do the d20 method of skill rolls? Dice roll + bonus must equal or exceed target number.

[Curufea]

That's exactly the way Hero does skills already. Dice+modifiers must equal a target number.

Although why you'd put D20 and "skills" in the same sentence eludes me ;-p

[ghost-angel]

This is the, in my opinion, MOST important concept of the HERO system.

HERO is infinitely scalable. The Game System does not limit you in any way. It is up to those playing the game to set self imposed limits.


This is also the concept that most RPGers have trouble with. I had the displeasure of sitting in with a second group my GM runs who are all primarily GURPS players and they could not, for the life of them, understand that they set the limits not the system. They kept pointing to all the "abuses" that were possible... (the displeasure came from personalility conflicts and not their preference in gaming systems... that and their inability to actually roleplay.)

[Curufea]

Abuse of a system is NEVER the system's problem. It is ALWAYS a problem with the players and the GM (in my opinion that is).

All systems can be abused.

[ghost-angel]

Abuse of a system is NEVER the system's problem. It is ALWAYS a problem with the players and the GM (in my opinion that is).

All systems can be abused.

The idea of HERO being infinitely scalable does not mean system abuse..

I mean that in most systems a "Level 1" type character is expected to be only so effecient in certain aspects - like combat for example.

Where in HERO a "Level 1" type (say, 75 pts) can be, if built correctly, as effective in combat as someone at twice the points.

Or any other situation.

Low Level HERO characters can stille kill High Level ones, that is extremely rare for any other game system, that I've experienced at least. YMMV.

[bblackmoor]

HERO is infinitely scalable.

Actually, it's not infinitely scaleable. The Powers system, for example, is intended for Powers in the 40-90 Active Point range (approximately). When you have Powers which greatly exceed this range -- 300 or more Active Points, say -- the system falls apart.

The reverse is also true. The system breaks down when applied to characters at the lowest end of the power spectrum: normal children, for example. The result in these cases is that the character's chance of success is either much less or much greater than one would expect in comparison to the "real world".

Part of this is due to the geometric scale aplied Characteristics. Part of this is due to the effect of Adders, and of Powers with fixed costs (such as Desolidification and Damage Reduction), which inherently do not scale. Part of it is due to the 3d6 bell curve. Part of it is due to the way the environment is represented by the game system. There is no one single reason: it is simply part of the assumptions of the system that it will be used within a given range of abilities, and that assumption pervades the game system at every level.

As a whole, what it means is that the system is most definitely not infinitely scaleable. It has an extraordinarily wide useful range -- from "normal folks" right up to "world-class superheroes" -- but it does reach a point at both ends of the spectrum where the system ceases to provide reasonable results for a character of a given power level.

[input.jack]

I guess, in a way, HERO system is like Newtonian physics; its great for explaining how things work in the world we see around us, and can scale up or down to some degree....but when you get into areas that are too small (like childrens abilities) or too large (like 300+ point powers), it kind of breaks down.

So I quess now we need someone to create "Quantum HERO", to handle all that other stuff at the extreme ends of the scale ;)

[Agent X]

I dunno, once you get to a scale where you are blowing up planets and rearranging galaxies I think it's not so much scaling problems for the system as it is wrapping your head around it.

[keithcurtis]

I guess, in a way, HERO system is like Newtonian physics; its great for explaining how things work in the world we see around us, and can scale up or down to some degree....but when you get into areas that are too small (like childrens abilities) or too large (like 300+ point powers), it kind of breaks down.

So I quess now we need someone to create "Quantum HERO", to handle all that other stuff at the extreme ends of the scale ;)
You're looking for the fabled UGT, the "Unified Gaming Theory". If we had that, we could rule reality!

Keith "At least on paper..." Curtis

[bblackmoor]

I guess, in a way, HERO system is like Newtonian physics; its great for explaining how things work in the world we see around us, and can scale up or down to some degree....but when you get into areas that are too small (like childrens abilities) or too large (like 300+ point powers), it kind of breaks down.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I hadn't thought of it that way. :)

[Curufea]

You're looking for the fabled UGT, the "Unified Gaming Theory". If we had that, we could rule reality!

Keith "At least on paper..." Curtis

That's one school of thought :)

The other being systemless and/or collaborative storytelling for these things....

After all, if the sytem can't simulate the reality you want it to - it is better not to mangle the system, or mangle the reality to fit. Both are half measures that lead to dissatisfaction (and warped views on that particular reality).