Official PRIMUS Question

[winterhawk]

Is the picture of SA Sanchez on p. 70 of MC representative of an Official Silver Avenger Uniform? Or can Silver Avengers personalize their uniforms? The only reason I ask is I want to do a drawing for my campaign's SA. Thanks!

[Peregrine]

Not an official answer, but...

On the one hand, PRIMUS is a uniformed agency, akin to the military in that respect. (Yes, I know PRIMUS is a law enforcement agency and not military. But it would be similar to the military in being uniformed.) Personalization of the uniform in such agencies is not permitted, except (possibly) for the higest ranking members (remember the Eisenhower jacket, so named because Ike himself wore a jacket of that style out of personal preference).

On the other hand, PRIMUS' Avengers are fully members of and participants in the Superhuman World, and the standard therein is individualized costumes.

On the gripping hand, I see the Avenger Corps as analogous to the astronaut corps of the 50s and 60s in terms of their level of individual celebrity. Under such circumstances, I couold readily see the Avengers having a 'standard' uniform, with individual 'variations' reflecting the respective avengers' personalities and preferences.

[ShelleyCM]

Here's the rub: can you really see any government agency with militaristic leanings (like Peregrine said, they're civilian...but....) saying "go ahead and customize to suit your personality?"

That said, who's to say they wouldn't in a superhero world? :) If you're having a drawing done for your SA, go ahead and customize it! The website has a full range of different uniform styles from different artists.

-Shelley (feeling surprisingly indecisive today)

[Knightraven]

Can somebody explain to me why the decision was made to do away with the Secret Identities of the Silver Avengers? I liked the idea. In my game I gave them code names. So, if one of them died, well, they replaced them. Also, they fight super criminals. Some of them are petty, bloodthirsty, revenge-minded killers. To take an example, the one from Millenium City busts Fenris. Fenris gets out. Fenris kills her husband, mother, and heaven forbid, any children she has.
Its a logical assumption. He's a killer. I recall an issue of an early nineties comic called the Protectors. A patriotic hero called Man-o-War is testifying at a senate committee. They ask why he wears a mask when police and federal agents don't.
"With all due respect, Senator, their perpatrators and foes can't tear buildings down with their bare hands."
Just my two cents. I couldn't ever wrap my head around doing away with the Secret Identity for these guys.

[Hermit]

I have no idea what the 'official' stance is, but I would think one reason is accountability. The Silver Avengers have a great deal of power, not only physically, but in their perks as law enforcers. They must be subject to the public scrutiny in order to keep that power somewhat in check. Super heroes are a different story. Yes, they can beat the snot out of you, but very few of them could have you arrested and held just on their say so.

Silver Avengers (I believe) can.

Also, there is the hypocracy factor. In the 5th Edition Champions Universe, many nations (including the United States) are requiring registration of super heroes with the govt including Secret IDs (though that does NOT become public knowledge). Super Heroes asked to do this, then noting the Silver Avengers wearing masks might fail to be impressed of the Government's good faith. If the Govt can't even confidently protect their own who are fully exposed, how can they be trusted with a heroe's secret?

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Knightraven
Can somebody explain to me why the decision was made to do away with the Secret Identities of the Silver Avengers?

I did that in the PRIMUS Sourcebook because I thought (and still think) that secret IDs for public employees is silly. Sure, supervillains are dangerous, but look at the real world.

The police officer who arrests dangerous criminals doesn't have one; the DA who prosecutes dangerous criminals doesn't have one; the judge who sentences the criminal doesn't have one; the prison guard who guards the criminal doesn't have one....why should a cop/investigator in spandex have one?

Anyway, that's my logic! If it fits your world to have secret IDs, then use 'em. :)

-Shelley

[THE PATRIOT]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Knightraven
[B]Can somebody explain to me why the decision was made to do away with the Secret Identities of the Silver Avengers?

I hope I have this right. Isn't it because PRIMUS backs up the philosophy and even the legality behind the Meta Human Registration Act?

[Knightraven]

Well, Shelly, I don't think you saw the secondary problem that I mentioned. Making them like-superheroes but with a charming public identity smiling face is a bad thing, IMO.
In my example, after Fenris killed off her family, how would the public view Sanchez? Object of pity? Sadness?
Also, lets say it was a superpowered terrorist, ala Ember that she helped put away. He specializes in incendiary bombs. He blows up her car with her in it, killing her. Killing Silver Avenger Sanchez. A person with a public face. Thereby making Primus look vulnerable and making all the other Silver Avengers targets.
At least with a code-name, costume, Primus could simply replace the person in the suit. Who knows how many different Silver Avenger Valkyrie's there have been? Does it really matter? All that matters is that there always will be one defending Millenium City.
And, when she decides to retire and maybe have kids in her late thirties or so, the criminals never bother her or her small children ever.
Just my 2 cents.

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by THE PATRIOT
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Knightraven
[B]Can somebody explain to me why the decision was made to do away with the Secret Identities of the Silver Avengers?

I hope I have this right. Isn't it because PRIMUS backs up the philosophy and even the legality behind the Meta Human Registration Act?

Yes, that's another great point. But that wasn't my original motive back in 1998. :)

-Shelley

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Knightraven

Also, lets say it was a superpowered terrorist, ala Ember that she helped put away. He specializes in incendiary bombs. He blows up her car with her in it, killing her. Killing Silver Avenger Sanchez. A person with a public face. Thereby making Primus look vulnerable and making all the other Silver Avengers targets.


Isn't that a danger for all public figures, not just PRIMUS Avengers? It doesn't take a supervillain to make bombs.

I would rather live in a world where the police are accountable for their actions -- people with faces and names. (I'd rather live in a world without the USA PATRIOT Act, too, but that's another story.) You asked why I changed PRIMUS Avengers from Secret to Public ID, and that's why.

-Shelley

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Knightraven
Well, Shelly, I don't think you saw the secondary problem that I mentioned. Making them like-superheroes but with a charming public identity smiling face is a bad thing, IMO.
In my example, after Fenris killed off her family, how would the public view Sanchez? Object of pity? Sadness?
Also, lets say it was a superpowered terrorist, ala Ember that she helped put away. He specializes in incendiary bombs. He blows up her car with her in it, killing her. Killing Silver Avenger Sanchez. A person with a public face. Thereby making Primus look vulnerable and making all the other Silver Avengers targets.
At least with a code-name, costume, Primus could simply replace the person in the suit. Who knows how many different Silver Avenger Valkyrie's there have been? Does it really matter? All that matters is that there always will be one defending Millenium City.
And, when she decides to retire and maybe have kids in her late thirties or so, the criminals never bother her or her small children ever.
Just my 2 cents.

Then Fenris or Ember dies.

Just like if you kill a cop, your life isn't worth much when other cops catch you.

"Ember was killed resisting arrest, shot 142 times with high wattage plasma weaponry."

Heck, all PRIMUS has to do is leak the information to Thunderbird, and whoops, crispy critter. Sorry Fenris. We'll mount your pelt to the wall.

See, the same thing applies as for police today. If a cop dies, does that make all the other cops more vulnerable? What happens if you target a cop's family?

I can see your point. But, there's a trade off between safety (can't target what you don't know!) and public opinion (Talk about your faceless government bureaucrat.)

D

[THE PATRIOT]

So PRIMUS do's support the registration of heroes secret identities?

Isn't there also a bit of tension between PRIMUS/SA's and masked heroes because they do keep their identities secret?

Is this something that got translated into the new CU?

[Hermit]

I think Mr Death has a point there. You kill the loved one of a super hero, you have a very nasty hunted. You kill the loved one of a PRIMUS Silver Avenger, you have a nasty hunted who can and will bump you up to the most wanted list, has extensive resources ,and LOTS of men beneath him to practically declare freaking war on you and the law won't help you because it's on the SA's side.

[Knightraven]

Well, using the Champions Universe book, I've circumvented the registration act. :D Go to england, register in england where you are not required to divulge your secret identity, go back to the us and, as a registered super of a UN member nation, well, there you go. :)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Knightraven
Well, using the Champions Universe book, I've circumvented the registration act. :D Go to england, register in england where you are not required to divulge your secret identity, go back to the us and, as a registered super of a UN member nation, well, there you go. :)
O.K.... That I like :D

[Knightraven]

edited. Flame bait. not necessary.

[Patriot]

How would a Silver Avenger go about making a powerplay for the Golden avengers job?

Silver Avenger for 12 years in good standing.
I want it so bad I can Taste it!

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Patriot
How would a Silver Avenger go about making a powerplay for the Golden avengers job?

Silver Avenger for 12 years in good standing.
I want it so bad I can Taste it!

Hope for an "accident?" :)

In the book knightraven loves so much, I'd had the GA not only as a more powerful Avenger, but also a kind of Avenger-director. Who knows? Maybe some bureaucrat in your campaign world would decide that there should be a west coast and an east coast GA?

In a more sinister vein, he could find some way to get the GA off duty for other reasons. Set up a series of events to make him look incompetent, unbalanced, or whatever. Heck, if you're talking about the really old GA, Robert Kaufman, it wasn't very far off!!

-Shelley
Rambling and exhuasted after playing bailiff downtown for hours... Oyez, oyez, oyez...

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
I have two PRIMUS questions to pose. First question, if an agent has martial arts training, does he have to take the PRIMUS martial arts training, too? Second question, would a former CIA black-bag job expert be accepted into PRIMUS, possibly as an intelligence agent, assuming he met all other requirements?
Yours,
Mark Rand

[JmOz]

I would say (No official word, and primus in my world is odd...)

I would say yes on 1 (But remember you only need to pay for a KS to be able to "share" all manuvers"

2) I don't see why not

[Celt]

Originally posted by Knightraven
In my example, after Fenris killed off her family,...
Also, lets say it was a superpowered terrorist...


What you're describing now is more a Dark Champions setting than the four-color setting of Champions. The two aren't mutually exclusive but one has to be careful in the mix to prevent spoiling of one or both.

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by JmOz
I would say (No official word, and primus in my world is odd...)

I would say yes on 1 (But remember you only need to pay for a KS to be able to "share" all manuvers"

2) I don't see why not

Sounds good to me. :)

-Shelley

[TheQuestionMan]

I've been more of a lurker lately than a poster , but here's my two cents .

A Secret ID for public employees is quite possible . We do not show the faces of Undercover Agents , SWAT , or , Detectives , because it endangers them on and off the job . Being recognized by chance as a Silver Avenger may endanger you , your mission , and innocent bystanders . Making you a danger to the public and preventing any public relations work . I mean what school would want a SA speaking in their school , leading their scout troop , or protecting someone else when they themselves are a target .

A Public ID does make the public and the media more open to them , but also more critical of individuals and used as political chips in the game . Instead of being SuperCops they become SuperTargets .

[Sketchpad]

I agree with Shelly ...
Silver Avengers, to me at least, are basically SHIELD Agents with some super-solider serum ;)

Of course, in my game, Primus gained the Cyberline serum from The Avenger, a WWII hero who was the first recipient ;) He later returned and kicked GA/Kaufman (an anti-mutant activist) out of the position, taking the name Golden Avenger ... (Of course, GA has a secret ID ... but that's because he serves as more than an agent, he's an icon and hero).

[ShelleyCM]

Ultimately, it depends on the tone of the campaign world. I strive for a "real world" feel -- not four color, not Dark Champs, just something in the middle -- and make agents/Avengers as much like real world analogs as I possibly can.

There's an implicit "mutual assured destruction" with PRIMUS and VIPER/other bad guy group (or so I've played them). If VIPER whacked a Silver Avenger's family, PRIMUS would pursue a scorched earth policy until the last VIPER agent was found. That, of course, does NOT make good business sense for any bad guy group!

In another game with a different tone, of course it would necessarily "feel" differently and things should be changed accordingly. ;)

-Shelley
Only two more finals to go -- and the first year of law school is over!!!!!

[Vondy]

As a point of fact:

It is not uncommon for federal agents in sensitive positions, such as the FBIs counter espionage division, to identify themselves with a pseudonym when interacting with the public in order to keep their exact job with the agency unknown.

Further, the identities of federal agents and local law enforcement personnel involved in paramilitary operations, HRT, SWAT, are generally restricted. If you were to confront one in the field and ask his name you wouldn't get it. You can get them with a court order, but even then , whether or not that identiy remains sealed by the court is at the discretion of the judge - in the Waco incident most were withheld, at Ruby Ridge they were not.

When the CIA has to go to court they actually have pseudonymns that are used IN COURT DOCUMENTS. You would have to be cleared for the information to ever get the agents name. The judge doesn't always know the actual identities of the people in question. The FBI agents in counter intelligence are often handled in the same way. We have special courts that handle these situations.

I understand Shelly's decision, and I think its a good one, but it would be perfectly reasonable to presume that people in the Avengers positions could have their identities witheld from the public in a realistic fashion.

Its just a matter of GM preference.

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by D-Man
As a point of fact:

It is not uncommon for federal agents in sensitive positions, such as the FBIs counter espionage division, to identify themselves with a pseudonym when interacting with the public in order to keep their exact job with the agency unknown.



Just a quick clarification: David is quite right, and I could easily see an agent having a secret id for this reason (I even had to read Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents of the Bureau of Narcotics this semester). But to me, there's a huge distinction between the undercover agent and the Avenger.

Again (and it's always the same): it's a matter of taste!

-Shelley

[Peregrine]

Personally, I like the "Avengers as 50s-60s astronaut-level celebrities" route, meself. (Can you say 'PRIMUS trading cards?' Sure, I knew you could.) That, and the 'mutual agreement' between PRIMUS and the bad guy organization du jour works to create the feel I'm looking for. (I'm also toying with limiting supers such that the Avengers are actually among the most powerful superheros in the campaign.)

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Peregrine
Personally, I like the "Avengers as 50s-60s astronaut-level celebrities" route, meself. (Can you say 'PRIMUS trading cards?' Sure, I knew you could.) That, and the 'mutual agreement' between PRIMUS and the bad guy organization du jour works to create the feel I'm looking for. (I'm also toying with limiting supers such that the Avengers are actually among the most powerful superheros in the campaign.)

Sounds like a campaign after my own heart. :)

-Shelley
Only one more final to go!

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by ShelleyCM
Sounds like a campaign after my own heart. :)

-Shelley
Only one more final to go!

Well, considering the amount of inspiration I've taken from your material... :)

And best of luck on your remaining final!

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
A quick thank you to those who replied to my questions and have given me such good advice. The PRIMUS liaison won't be a former CIA black-bag specialist. However, the intelligence agency liaison will be an expert in that field. Also, there will be a room in the headquarters where the PRIMUS liaison, the intelligence agency liaison and the team's techie, who is also a ninja, keep equipment, each in its own area. Only PRIMUS has access to the area where their agent's equipment is kept.
Our world has Immortals, as in "Highlander", the Stargate, as in "Stargate SG-1" and vampires, as in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". With the existance of superheroes, the Society of Watchers has revealed the existance of Immportals and has had some of the chronicles published.
When the existance of the Stargate becomes public knowledge, I'm sure PRIMUS, UNTIL, the FBI, the police and the local heroes will offer to help when needed and the DOSPA, United Nations, NASA and the State Department will insist on sending liaison officers.
The existance of vampires and the Slayer is known only to a chosen few intelligence and law enforcement agencies.
Yours,
Mark Rand

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
Forgot to tell you about the local Silver Avenger. She looks like Maria Chow and is Terry Kestler with ninjitsu training and Mayte Sanchez's adrenaline junkie style. She owns and carries some martial arts weapons, including a katana, shuriken and a weighted chain.
As always, comment is invited and I thank you, in advance, for them.
Yours,
Mark Rand

[ShelleyCM]

Sounds like she's the best of all possible worlds. :)

-Shelley

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
Thanks, Shelley. That's why I created her. However, unlike Maria Chow, she's a Japanese-American.
How would PRIMUS and Mariko Namura, out lady silver avenger, react to Immortals, the Stargate and the Slayer (and the Hellmouth) and, if they're in the campaign, the MIB (from the movies) and the goings on in Prefection (from the Tremors movies and tv series)?
How does PRIMUS react to her using her own weapons?"
Yours,
Mark Rand

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Mark Rand
Hi all,
Thanks, Shelley. That's why I created her. However, unlike Maria Chow, she's a Japanese-American.
How would PRIMUS and Mariko Namura, out lady silver avenger, react to Immortals, the Stargate and the Slayer (and the Hellmouth) and, if they're in the campaign, the MIB (from the movies) and the goings on in Prefection (from the Tremors movies and tv series)?
How does PRIMUS react to her using her own weapons?"


Dunno about Mariko, but Maria Chow (who is part Japanese) would react by dating what/whoever the phenom of week was. :)

As for PRIMUS and the rest...well, I suppose it depends on what would suit your campaign world best. The safest bet would be heavy skepticism. I'm not familiar enough with the TV shows or movies to make much more of a statement.

As for her own weapons...I'm not sure. I suppose it would depend on the weapon's origin. Lifted from VIPER? Bad. One of a kind item that she has legitimately? Might be OK, but would want to have R&D look at it.

-Shelley

[Mark Rand]

Hi all.
Good comments from Shelley. Thank you.
Silver Avenger Mariko Namura's katana was made in the 16th century's finest swordsmiths. The rest of her weapons were purchased from a relative's martial arts supply company.
Earth's stargate, one of over one million in the gate network, is under the control of Stargate Command, which is headed by Major General George Hammond, USAF. Since the gate is under military control, PRIMUS would, I think, let them worry about it. Mariko would, I think, visit Stargate Command once she knew about it to leave her business card with General Hammond, in case there was a problem.
Mariko found out about Slayers, vampires and the Hellmouth when assault agents raiding a suspected DEMON nest discovered instead 50 vampires. Fortunately, the Slayer and some friends arrived to help with the vampires, brief them on the situation and show them the Hellmouth. In my opinion, PRIMUS considers it the Slayer's job. Mariko keeps in close contact with them and they exchange intel.
Would the local PRIMUS office assist the Secret Service, if asked, when the President's in town? I think so, but I'm not sure.
More information on mentioned tv programs and movies to follow.
Yours,
Mark Rand

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
The TV series "Tremors" takes place in Perfection, Nevada, a small town 20 miles north of the larger town of Bixby, Nevada. Of course, in a Champions campaign, Perfection and Bixby could be placed anywhere.
The town first came to public netice when Graboids, large underground eating machines, were discovered there. Now, the town is home to El Blanco, a great white Graboid. Unlike others of his kind, he can't morph into Shriekers, which burst from the Graboid and eat the remains.
Since Graboids are an endangered species, and Perfection Valley is El Blanco's range, the U.S. Department of the Interior keeps an eye on things there.
A recently discovered underground lab, used by the federal government in the 1940s, is the source of another problem, Mixmaster, a compound that lets DNA of different species combine.
Due to Mixmaster, fantasy creatures could become real. Imagine, a pegasus or a house cat with wings and a scorpion's tail. Kind of boggles the mind.
In a Champions campaign, PRIMUS would, I think, take an interest in Prefection Valley and keep an intelligence agent there. Since she's the closest Silver Avenger, Mariko probably would be the one to come there when called.
As always, your comments are requested.
Yours,
Mark Rand

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Mark Rand
In a Champions campaign, PRIMUS would, I think, take an interest in Prefection Valley and keep an intelligence agent there. Since she's the closest Silver Avenger, Mariko probably would be the one to come there when called.


Sure, sounds good to me. And as someone who lived in Northern Nevada long enough to be considered native (8 years), I know for a fact it's a perfect place to set adventures -- I've done it myself, many times. :)

-Shelley

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
Wonderful comments, as usual, from Shelley. Thank you. Now, all I have to do is figure out where in Northern Nevada Perfection is. If Mariko is Las Vegas's silver avenger, it might be near Ely. Any ideas?
Comment is also requested on my post of 5/31/03 which gives more information on Mariko's weapons and my opinion on PRIMUS's reaction to the Stargate Project, the Slayer and her helpers and Presidential security.
Yours,
Mark Rand

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
Oops, almost forgot, in the campaign, Prefection Valley doesn't have to be in Northern Nevada. I'm sure there are other places that could have the right geographic isolation, an immence box canyon with rocky cliffs on one side, mountains on two others and, on the fourth, the only road out of town. Any ideas?
The closest town doesn't have to be Bixby, it could be another one. Also, Stargate Command could be in one of the mountains. Discovering that and finding out that a PRIMUS intelligence agent was moving into Prefection itself would make Burt go nuts.
Yours,
Mark Rand