Breadth and depth of VPPs

[Tom McCarthy]

I saw an interesting question on the Hero System Questions page, and thought I'd throw out my (stolen) solution here.

With GM's approval, a VPP could be bought with the Pool Cost equal to the real cost of the powers which it may support, and the control cost base equal to the highest active point total the VPP will support.

For example, in a VPP with powers limited to 60 active points, but up to 90 real points of powers, it looks like this (with no advantages or limitations):

90 Variable Power Pool
30 Varaiable Power Pool Control Cost (60 active point powers)

I forget who originally suggested it, but it's relatively flexible and doesn't change the cost of existing VPPs where the active point cap and real point cap are equal.

[Chris Goodwin]

It might have been suggested in the days of the first Hero board (pre-Cybergames). Who was the first to suggest it is probably lost in the mists of antiquity, unless the person who did it wants to speak up.

[Marcus]

Hmm... See, I might allow a limitation on the active points in the pool as a 'limitation' taken on the control cost (amout at discretion of GM), but in your above example.. which would YOU rather have on your PC?

60-Base VPP Points
30-Control
30- Some Other Power

Or
60-Base VPP Poitns
30-Control
30 More VPP Points (cant add to the first 60)

Seems to me the second description is in every imagineable way better than the first (which is why you always pay full cost, period, end of sentence, for the base points in a VPP, and then pay quite possibly through the nose for the 'Control' that lets you juggle them.

Then again, ive done and allowed some pretty obscene things in my games, and if it works for yours, go with it. I just see it as better than about anything else you could do with your points, so would reccomend instead

90 Base VPP Points
36-45 Point Control, -1/4 No More than 60AP in a power

Note that if it was an 18DC game, and the guy using the pool had no other way to generate offensive crunch, I might well let the 60AP cap on the pool be -1/2. Just me.

[Killer Shrike]

Hi all; I posted the question to Steve.

I considered Steve's suggestion of a Talent and also considered just applying GM Fiat and producing a chart that specifies how many powers can be in the Pool. However, Ive settled on a different method for now using an Adder, as detailed at the bottom of the post.


For some context, Im working on updating my old 2nd Edition AD&D to (4th ed) HERO System conversion (www.nestofthorns.com) to a 3e D&D to (5th ed) HERO System and Im completely reworking the magic system among other things to deal with the shift in 'Level to Experience Points' between AD&D and D&D 3e.

The old conversion was based on a AD&D Level to HERO character points by CLASS, derived from a ration of AD&D Experience. Thus, since a 2nd ed AD&D Wizard had way more Experience points than an equal level Rogue for instance, it was doable to have a very expensive VPP overhead at the higher levels because in the conversion process such a character would have more points available to them.

That applied to converted charcters of course.


Characters created in the HERO System to play as part of a PC group had the same number of character points as everyone else but because of the disparity in AD&D Levels between classes it all worked out. If you took the same PC group and stated them out in both systems to create analogs, such a character would be of a lower level than other non-wizards in AD&D terms.

This was done in AD&D because the classes werent inherently balanced against one another and the only real mitigating factor was that the weaker classes advanced faster. This all translated nicely into the HERO System, because the weaker classes were cheaper to stat than the stronger classes, and within the confines of a PC group where everyone is on the same general points base and within a few points of one another, all the PCs were more or less equally capable.

In 3e of course all the classes are now on the same progression chart and theoretically balanced against one another. Thus a 20th level wizard with IIRC 4 9th level spells has as much XP as a 20th level Fighter and is theoretically equivalent.

Converting that over to the HERO System is a little trickier because not all abilities are as economical to stat in HEROs.

What Ive arrived at as a working model after wrestling around with it for a couple of weeks is start at 125 points (75 + 75) at "1st level", allow up to 25 extra points of Disadvantages to be taken at "1st level" and every 4 levels thereafter up to "16th level" if in a Package deal to help account for multiclassing (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th) and race packages (1st level)). Each D&D "level" is 15 or 20 character points in HEROs alternating even/odd.

Thus
<table>
<tr><th>D&D<br>Level</th><th>HERO<br>Points</th><th>Optional<br>Package<br>Disadvantage<br>Points</th></tr><tr><th>1</th><td>125</td><td>+25</td></tr><tr><th>2</th><td>145</td></tr><tr><th>3</th><td>160</td></tr><tr><th>4</th><td>180</td><td>+25</td></tr><tr><th>5</th><td>195</td></tr><tr><th>6</th><td>215</td></tr><tr><th>7</th><td>230</td></tr><tr><th>8</th><td>250</td><td>+25</td></tr><tr><th>9</th><td>265</td></tr><tr><th>10</th><td>285</td></tr><tr><th>11</th><td>300</td></tr><tr><th>12</th><td>320</td><td>+25</td></tr><tr><th>13</th><td>335</td></tr><tr><th>14</th><td>355</td></tr><tr><th>15</th><td>370</td></tr><tr><th>16</th><td>390</td><td>+25</td></tr><tr><th>17</th><td>405</td></tr><tr><th>18</th><td>425</td></tr><tr><th>19</th><td>440</td></tr><tr><th>20</th><td>460</td></tr></table>

For spellcasting, Im doing VPPs with various Control Cost configurations to model the different spellcaster types. For wizards the control cost has a -1 applied to it currently between all of its disadvantages, which basically works out to every 20 points in the pool costs an additional 5 points for the control cost.

To handle the 'Spell Levels of D&D', Im applying Active cost limits in 15 point increments. Thus, a "0 Level spell" is any power construct with a total Active cost of 15 or less, a "1st level spell" is any power construct with a total Active cost between 16 and 30, etc.

So far this has worked out well, although there are a few D&D Spells which defy this model because they are far and away more powerful than thier level would indicate (which is a well known phenomenom), or deal in arbitrary/absolute effects which are immpossible to replicate in HEROs and/or cost quite a lot to manufacture a facimile of. For example, the 1st level Protection from [Alignment] spells are extremely powerful and have very arbitrary and absolute effects. Its immpossible to replicate all the functionality of those spells on 30 Active Points.

I have done all of the 0 level, most of the 1st level, and a sampling of other level spells from 2 through 9 on this model as a proof of concept and so far it works, although some of the spells either have no predefined meaning in HEROs because they manipulate or interact with concepts specific to the D&D paradigm, and other spells which are distinct in D&D have little mechanical difference in HEROs; for example, many D&D spells end up being permutations of Telekinesis in the HERO System; a lot of the Conjuration spells are just variations of Summon in the HERO System; a lot of the Evocation spells are just permutations of RKA or EB; a lot of the Illusions Spells are variations of Images and Mental Illusions; a lot of the Transmutation spells are variations of Transform or Aid or Shape Change; etc.


Overall, the model is working well enough for the Wizards on the points available. Because a Wizard gains a spell level every 2 caster levels in D&D, that works out to needing to buy the VPP up 15 pool (plus the control cost for 3 or 4 points depending on the rounding steps) every 35 character points in the HERO System to keep pace, which is just over half thier points. This is suitably expensive to be a limiting factor, and still allow enough points for character growth in other areas. On a 3 XP per session average, a Wizard can be expected to pick up a new 'spell level' every 12 sessions. Of course, there is nothing to stop a player from taking advantage of HEROs freeform character advancement and either pouring all thier points into thier VPP (in which case they will see a new "spell level" every 6 sessions but be otherwise very 1 dimensional) or opting to round out thier character more and advance thier VPP slower at thier discretion.


It all seems to work out nicely except for 1 problem. Even applying heavy Limitations to spells to get the Real Cost as low as possible (around 3 pts for 0 level spells, 8 pts for 1st level spells, 12 points for 2nd level and so on), there is no way a wizard on this model can afford all of the spells alloted to them by the D&D spell progression chart because the Real Costs exceed the Active Point Limit of the VPP. If they increase the VPP to fit in more spells they also are capable of casting spells with a higher AP limit, which is synonymous in this context to casting higher level spells. At no point does the Wizard ever get ahead of it under the current model of the VPP.



To solve this, Im thinking about creating an Adder to the control cost which is basically for every 5 points the RC limit on the VPP is doubled. Since its on the Control Cost, any modifiers will make this cost more or less, a Cosmic Pool would pay 15 points for every doubling while a OIF Only Change in a Lab Gadget Pool would pay IIRC 2.5 for every doubling.

[Marcus]

So what your proposing is a 5 Point adder that doubles the 'Active Point' cap of the pool. Thus a hypothetical 30-point-pool, 45 control (Fully Cosmic) could instead be a 30 point pool, (15+5)x3 or 60 control pool that could boast a 60Active Point Power, so long as the limitations took it down to 30 real points or less.

Hmm... Ill have to knock the idea around in my head for a while. Might be a good way to give the gadgetter the ability to buy a gadget that had effects vaguely near dice cap, without requireing a massive investment. Im still a wee bit uncomfortable about something that might allow a character to get more Active Points of a single power out of the pool than the overall cost of the pool, but I suppose in some ways its morally similar to a very very flexible, and perhaps slightly more efficient, variable limiation power/powers.

And with that big STOP sign that stands over VPPs, warning off GMs.

(Sorry if I seem a lil jumpy about VPPs... im currently playing a 300 point character with nothing going for her but some stats and a fairly large, and perhaps foolishly flexible on the GMs part, VPP. In all honesty, my own self restraint is the only thing between the PC and apotheosis. Guess Mr. GM trusts me more than I tend to trust my own players....)

[JmOz]

the most "Workable" system I have seen for it is that Active limit is a 1/2 point trait, pool size was also a 1/2 point trait, you combine the two and divide in half for the control cost

So you could have a

40 Active Limit
60 pool size (Up to 60 real points)
25 control cost

Personaly I just make them take a -1/4 lim for up to 2/3 pool (60 point pool, 40 active limit) size limit -1/2 for 1/2 pool size (60 pool, 30 active limit)

[DrSavant]

I have seen how VVP's can be EASILY abused, and unbalance things (with little to no creativity on the Players Part)

Here are some things I have used to try to control that.

Lets start with a 50 pt VVP control cost 25= 75 pts total

# 1- A maximum limit is used, and heavily enforced, of how
many powers can be in a VVP at once ( I use 6)
# 2- Each power must be created ahead of time, otherwise
it becomes too useful and abusive.
# 3- A general Limitation is used to define the pool's effects.
Only Animal Powers, Only Ice Powers, etc
NO CREDIT is to be given to the PC for this limitation,
(it's a trade-off for the diversity). All powers MUST
clearly belong to that effect. Beyond that any limitation
or advantage can be added.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Marcus
So what your proposing is a 5 Point adder that doubles the 'Active Point' cap of the pool. Thus a hypothetical 30-point-pool, 45 control (Fully Cosmic) could instead be a 30 point pool, (15+5)x3 or 60 control pool that could boast a 60Active Point Power, so long as the limitations took it down to 30 real points or less.


Uh, no. The AP limit is unchanged; it doubles the Pool for Real Cost purposes.

Thus if your pool was 45 and you bought 1 level of the adder your AP cap is still 45, but your RC limit is 90; i.e. you can have more smaller powers, but the AP limit is unchanged on any of those powers.

[Marcus]

Okay, understand now. Cool. I still kinda like my version for letting proto-batman build a meaningful attack without a massive VPP, but I see what your doing with yours, to let the mage shoehorn every spell he knows into the VPP without making it a smooth bajillion potential active points.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Marcus
Okay, understand now. Cool. I still kinda like my version for letting proto-batman build a meaningful attack without a massive VPP, but I see what your doing with yours, to let the mage shoehorn every spell he knows into the VPP without making it a smooth bajillion potential active points.

Exactly. wider but not deeper. Although in this case its not literally 'every spell he knows', but a fair number of them all the same. The idea is to allow replication of the classic D&D/Vancian model of X # of spells / spell level, so that if you 'know' 1 or 50 1st level spells, on a given day you begin the day with any 4 of them (or the same spell multiple times).

So in thier VPP, a Wizard would have a layering of small, medium and large powers theoretically. Of course, I dont have a real problem with a player taking advantage of the flexibility of HEROs and opting to focus on a smaller total number of thier larger spells (consuming the RC limit faster) or a large number of thier smaller spells (trading over all power for options).