I'm Turnin' to Stone

[Dust Raven]

Gotta bit of a thought to toss out to the wolves...

When you use a Transform to turn a targe to stone (or any other inanimate substance or object), does the target retain awareness of its surroundings, capacity for thought and other aspects of the mind, and can that mind be contacted with Mental Powers or contact other minds with Mental Powers? It occurs to me that just turning someone to stone (a purely physical transformation) won't change anything about the mind, but would it still allow to block that mind from the world around it?

[ghost-angel]

I think the perception of a person transformed depends on what they are transformed to.

A living thing: yes, whatever senses said thing has.
A non-living thing: no, statues can not see.

To continue with the statue transform, you still retain your mind and soul... So I would imagine that anythone with Mental powers would be able to contact the mind trapped in the statue (which I would imagine be a lot like a sensory deprivation chamber) and communicate with it.

On the other hand, perhaps the mind and soul go into some kind of stasis and have no perception of anything inward or otherwise. In that case, I'm not sure if anything would be able to interact with the trapped mind.

Perhaps it's a bit of both...

Either way, I would assume that anything transformed into a Statue cannot see/hear/speak/smell/taste or feel anything unless the Transform left any of the tactile senses in place.. "Transform into Status With Eyes" for example.

In fact.. if you did a Transform to Statue with Eyes and the mind could perceive you could conceivably use said statue to see through with Mind Link... ooh, spies. the villains castle is lined with statues in every hall that the villain uses to spy on anyone in his domain with.

[prestidigitator]

Eh. I think if you Transform someone into something completely non-functional, it is really a toss up as to whether they still, "retain their mind and soul." They very well may not, at least for the time being. They just haven't been Transformed into anything useful to the attacker either. What really matters is that once the Transform is reversed (however that is defined as happening), the person is alive and well again (er, provided no one has decided to chip off his/her arm). So I think it is completely up to the GM (and/or the player who defined the Transform, depending on how much the GM allows the player to define). It may even vary between different Special Effects or concepts.

[schir1964]

Gotta bit of a thought to toss out to the wolves...

When you use a Transform to turn a targe to stone (or any other inanimate substance or object), does the target retain awareness of its surroundings, capacity for thought and other aspects of the mind, and can that mind be contacted with Mental Powers or contact other minds with Mental Powers? It occurs to me that just turning someone to stone (a purely physical transformation) won't change anything about the mind, but would it still allow to block that mind from the world around it?
Strictly depends on the SFX of the power.

- Christopher Mullins

[Guyon]

I would think of them in stasis. Since there brain is solid stone, they can't really think. But the stone does not destroy there spirit, so they are not dead.

My opinion is they can not do ANYTHING while turned to stone, but if reverted back to flesh they should be dazed for a moment and not know what went on while they were stone.

[Supreme Serpent]

Concept/SFX. Decide when you make the power.

If it's bought as a non-Transform power, like a massive Entangle, then the victim would absolutely still be conscious/aware, unless other steps (continuous NND, entangle blocks XYZ senses, etc) were taken.

[Blue]

I think it's generally the GM's call because there's such a wide range of things you can be changed into.

"I change the prince into a Toad". GM could argue that you need the "Animal" class of minds before you could telepathically communicate with him.

"With a touch I turn her to gold!" I'd argue that if she's gold thorugh-and-through then she can't be communicated with and wouldn't remember anything that happened during that time of transformation, but in an appropriate game I'd rule the other way. (Like if it was important for the heroes to hear about the villain's vain boasting to his statues about his dastardly plan).

[Guyon]

Oh yes I agree with Blue.

I took it literally as turn to REAL stone. A toad would have consciouses :-)

[Sean Waters]

...cos you ain't comin' home...

Hmm, who will be the voice of dissent...Howdy y'all. :D

Transform can work in three ways: physical, mental and spiritual. Each element has to be defined when the power is built: a physical transform can not mentally transform a target, or spiritually transform it.

If you physically transform a target into a stone statue, I can see no good reason it shuold have any of its physical senses: statues don't, but the mind should still work, including any mental powers (and vulnerability to mental powers) that don't have a physical component (like requires eye contact), and the spirit should still reside there.

If that makes no real sense, and let's face it, were talking about turning someone to stone, so there are no real guidelines to apply here, then you need to build the power differently. It probably makes more sense to have the target in some sort of stasis, so I'd argue that the power should be built as a physical AND mental transform AND, quite possibly, a spiritual one too.

While we a re on the subject, sometimes it might be useful to be turned to stone: the room is about to be flooded with flesh eating acid: stone will give you life support and immunity to flesh eating acid, so when is a transform something thatgives you powers, i.e. when is it something you need a higher effecct than 2xBODY to complete? The answer to thatone probably involves the words 'judgement call', but can anyone thing of any broad guidlines that might be useful?

[Badger]

The first thing i thought of was Han Solo in carbonite. I know his body didnt turn to stone. But just curious was his mind in stasis? I think it was but, I am know good in interpreting a coherent plotline out of Lucas so I am unsure.


Also if the mind still works in the statue that the character's body has been turned into. Wouldnt it be likely that the mind of the character would run the risk of eventually going a bit mad?

[Dust Raven]

...cos you ain't comin' home...
...If I'm turning to stone... You've been gone for so long... And I can't carry on... Yes I'm turning,I'm turning, I'm turning to stone

Hmm, who will be the voice of dissent...Howdy y'all. :D

Transform can work in three ways: physical, mental and spiritual. Each element has to be defined when the power is built: a physical transform can not mentally transform a target, or spiritually transform it.

If you physically transform a target into a stone statue, I can see no good reason it shuold have any of its physical senses: statues don't, but the mind should still work, including any mental powers (and vulnerability to mental powers) that don't have a physical component (like requires eye contact), and the spirit should still reside there.

If that makes no real sense, and let's face it, were talking about turning someone to stone, so there are no real guidelines to apply here, then you need to build the power differently. It probably makes more sense to have the target in some sort of stasis, so I'd argue that the power should be built as a physical AND mental transform AND, quite possibly, a spiritual one too.

While we a re on the subject, sometimes it might be useful to be turned to stone: the room is about to be flooded with flesh eating acid: stone will give you life support and immunity to flesh eating acid, so when is a transform something thatgives you powers, i.e. when is it something you need a higher effecct than 2xBODY to complete? The answer to thatone probably involves the words 'judgement call', but can anyone thing of any broad guidlines that might be useful?

Good points. But if being turned to stone doesn't actually alter the mind at all, but just keeps that mind from interacting with the world around the character's body (which is now stone), would that still count as a Mental Transform, or just a Physical Transform that shuts the brain off?

[prestidigitator]

I think I would probably just deal with it as a GM when it came up. Would I allow them to use Mental Powers? Maybe, but I might give them a limited time to do it, seeing as they will probably lose all sense of reality in little time. Would I allow them to, "remember," the time that elapsed? Maybe, but who without Absolute Time Sense would really be able to judge the time without any senses or any biological queues to go by?

I'm willing to bet my interpretation would change based upon whether it was a Superherioc game or a Heroic one, and upon the general, "reality level," as well. I wouldn't think it unheard of for a superhero to call in the help mentally if turned into stone, but a fantasy wizard? Probably not, unless (s)he had set up magical contingencies.

[ghost-angel]

I'm leaning heavily towards the "Depends on the game you're in" direction for the full and exact effects of a Transform: To Stone power/spell.

This is one of those where the SFX really seems to matter, as well as the game setting you're in.

[Foxx!]

Dust Raven!

Basically, I think it's player/GM call because you decide that effect when you buy the power. But how about a Limitation "target's mind is still free"?

Cheers!

[Dust Raven]

Dust Raven!
Foxx!! (I needed two !s)

Why are we yelling at each other? :)


Anyways, I think my question is answered. For once the vague and mysterious "it depends/varies" squarely answers my question. A normal Transform may shut down/out the mental faculties without actually causing a change in them, but it doesn't have to (which is the duh part ;)).

[prestidigitator]

Dust Raven!!!

DUH! ;)

This is fun.

[Dust Raven]

!!!


:stupid:

:):D:)

[Sean Waters]

[/i]
...If I'm turning to stone... You've been gone for so long... And I can't carry on... Yes I'm turning,I'm turning, I'm turning to stone


Good points. But if being turned to stone doesn't actually alter the mind at all, but just keeps that mind from interacting with the world around the character's body (which is now stone), would that still count as a Mental Transform, or just a Physical Transform that shuts the brain off?

Well, just throwing it out, but say you have the Stoner character facing an enemy mentalist, knowing he has the mental defence to prevent the telepathy getting vital information out of his head, but his team brick doesn't (in any event the team brick always gets mind controlled and turns on the rest). He stones the brick, giving him, in effect, mental invulnerability.

Sounds potentially abusive to me. If the mind was still there, the brick could still be read (and mind controlled to rampage when he is no longer Stoned). In effect you are adding powers. It may just be sfx, but the way the power is written, to do anything to the mind (change it or just make it 'not there') you should use a mental transform.

So I guess I'm kinda in the 'it depends' camp too.

Y'all !!!!

[Dust Raven]

Well, just throwing it out, but say you have the Stoner character facing an enemy mentalist, knowing he has the mental defence to prevent the telepathy getting vital information out of his head, but his team brick doesn't (in any event the team brick always gets mind controlled and turns on the rest). He stones the brick, giving him, in effect, mental invulnerability.

Sounds potentially abusive to me. If the mind was still there, the brick could still be read (and mind controlled to rampage when he is no longer Stoned). In effect you are adding powers. It may just be sfx, but the way the power is written, to do anything to the mind (change it or just make it 'not there') you should use a mental transform.

So I guess I'm kinda in the 'it depends' camp too.


So turning someone to stone, completely imobolizing them, making so they can't perceive the world around them and effectively removing them from reality and making it impossible for them to call for help even mentally or others to mentally reach them to find out what happened isn't enough of a balance for complete invulnerability to Mental Powers? :)

[Sean Waters]

So turning someone to stone, completely imobolizing them, making so they can't perceive the world around them and effectively removing them from reality and making it impossible for them to call for help even mentally or others to mentally reach them to find out what happened isn't enough of a balance for complete invulnerability to Mental Powers? :)

Well, it depends who you are doing it to: if it is your own team's brick as you know he'll be a liability against enemy mentalists, there would seem to be advantages stacked in favour of the mental invulnerability.

As for doing it to enemies, especially enemy mentalists, well, stoning an enemy mentalist could actually help them: they become physically hard to hurt, but if their mental powers still operate and they have mind scan, you've just bought yourself a whole heap of trouble: turning their mind off for free seems a bit of a bonus. In any event, if you can turn off a mentalist's powers with a physical transform that is probably a far better bet than using a mental transform on them: the former usually targets BODY, the latter EGO.

Mind you, I can be a bit of a skinflint about these things... :D

[Ki-rin]

Another option for you: In Zelazny's _Dilvish, The Damned_ the act of turning Dilivish to stone turns his body to stone and transports his mind+spirit/soul to Hell.

...leading to the idea that while your body is an inanimate object, "you" are Somewhere Else...

[Dust Raven]

Well, it depends who you are doing it to: if it is your own team's brick as you know he'll be a liability against enemy mentalists, there would seem to be advantages stacked in favour of the mental invulnerability. and the difference between that and leavng the brick at home for that fight would be?


As for doing it to enemies, especially enemy mentalists, well, stoning an enemy mentalist could actually help them: they become physically hard to hurt, but if their mental powers still operate and they have mind scan, you've just bought yourself a whole heap of trouble: turning their mind off for free seems a bit of a bonus. In any event, if you can turn off a mentalist's powers with a physical transform that is probably a far better bet than using a mental transform on them: the former usually targets BODY, the latter EGO.

Mind you, I can be a bit of a skinflint about these things... :DBut if this were the case, I'd just turn my teams mentalist to stone every combat, and turn the enemies mentalist into a slug or something equally less vulnerable.

[Sean Waters]

and the difference between that and leavng the brick at home for that fight would be?

But if this were the case, I'd just turn my teams mentalist to stone every combat, and turn the enemies mentalist into a slug or something equally less vulnerable.

1. The brick is already there. He tends to follow you.

2. Well, yes this is an interesting point: you can add powers to a character by getting a higher than normal effect roll with transform: at what point does something like turning to stone go from being an attack to 'adding powers'? It adds quite a lot of life support, Body and armour. It takes away plenty too, but you might not need the stuff it takes away while you are using the stuff it gives you. Oh it's all too complicated....

Anyway, the enemy mentalist would still be a psychic slug!

I'm just saying there is a potential for imbalance when you allow a physical transform to effect mental elements. Never had this problem in 4th ed....(or did we: I can't recall for the moment!)

[prestidigitator]

I'm just saying there is a potential for imbalance when you allow a physical transform to effect mental elements. Never had this problem in 4th ed....(or did we: I can't recall for the moment!)
I never did. In 4th, a Transform was a Transform. You could change anything about the target. It was so simple. Weeeeee! :)

[Tugun Master]

Lol! You guys...

I reckon it's all to do with how you build it. Sticking with the transform idea, I'd say that being a hunk of solid granite (or whatever) would pretty much rule out being used as a Mentalist's guinea pig/punching bag. Unless you've got psychometry that is. Sure our victim's Mind and Spirit weren't transformed mechanics-wise, but his <i>physical</i> brain has been.

Is this a free defense?

Think about it.

Let's use the previous example bove about The Brick and the "Stoner" attempting to take out a Mentalist. Our Stoner knowing that the mentalist will more than likely use the Brick as his puppet of doom decides on the fly that it might be a better idea to stone the Brick so as to deny the mentalist his chance to use and abuse him (mentally).

One surprised Brick turned to stone later, our Mentalist now has a choice... attempt to overwhelm the remaining Stoner, whom allegedly has decent mental defenses, or laugh at how the Stoner just did a better job of bettering his odds than the Mentalist could have thought of.

If our mentalist is quick enough on the uptake, (like I would) he could always find some nearby civilians to dominate and send them looking for appropriate tools to start smashing the now stoned Brick. (Perhaps stopping to try and beat up the Stoner Guy so he can't undo the transform).

NOW...

On the other hand, maybe the transform is one of those nasty magical spells that only the meanest of Villains use... the ones that leave the victim's brain perfectly functional sort of a full body paralysis that nonetheless involves the guy being a hunk of rock. Worse it may indeed leave the poor chump capable of sensing with some or all of his senses.

Then the villain could gloat, use the hero in demeaning fashion (say as a Doorstop or garden statue to show off to his friends) or just leave him for the birds and insects to play with for a few millennia.

I would....

[Dust Raven]

NOW...

On the other hand, maybe the transform is one of those nasty magical spells that only the meanest of Villains use... the ones that leave the victim's brain perfectly functional sort of a full body paralysis that nonetheless involves the guy being a hunk of rock. Worse it may indeed leave the poor chump capable of sensing with some or all of his senses.

Then the villain could gloat, use the hero in demeaning fashion (say as a Doorstop or garden statue to show off to his friends) or just leave him for the birds and insects to play with for a few millennia.

I would....
:eg:
I've done that... It's kinda fun to say "Segment 5 DEX 20...Shonin you're up. On your Phase the echoey voice continues to taunt you as you are forced to watch... DEX 15, the Agents open fire in general on the rest of the team using Shonin for cover."

[Tugun Master]

Aftermath:

Brick: 'I can't believe you thought turning me to stone was a good idea!'

Stoner: 'Hey! I thought he was going to Mind Control you to wail on us, dude!'

Brick: 'Those guys he <i>did</i> Control would have smashed me to bits!'

Stoner: 'How was I to know there was a construction site nearby with workers doing demolition work?'

---
Encounter with Mentalist #2

*Brick sees Mentalist, then grabs Stoner and throws him at Mentalist, taking them both out.

Martial Artist: 'What the hell did you do that for?'

Brick: 'Thought I'd get rid of the two biggest threats to us winning.'

---

ELSEWHERE, THE DARK PALACE OF GORGON-MASTER...

Gorgon: 'Heroes? Yes, I get a few from time to time, Shadow Lord... they tend to brighten the place up.'

Shadow Lord: '...pardon? I've always found them to be an infernal nuisiance...'

Gorgon: 'Not at all at all... step this way...'

*Gorgon-Master leads Sahdow Lord to his Throne Room, and points out the sides where he has life-sized statues in dynamic poses.

Shadow Lord: 'Why do you have statues of heroes in your... wait...'

*Shadow Lord senses life energies within the statues...

'Well well... I see what you mean... hahaha...'

Gorgon-Master: 'When I'm feeling down I come to my Throne Room and gaze upon my collection... sometimes I talk to them. They hear all my dealings, my plans for conquest...'

*Gorgon steps up to one and gives it a loving pat on the shoulder.

'They just can't do a thing about it... can you, Barbarian?'

[Dust Raven]

ELSEWHERE, THE DARK PALACE OF GORGON-MASTER...

Gorgon: 'Heroes? Yes, I get a few from time to time, Shadow Lord... they tend to brighten the place up.'

Shadow Lord: '...pardon? I've always found them to be an infernal nuisiance...'

Gorgon: 'Not at all at all... step this way...'

*Gorgon-Master leads Sahdow Lord to his Throne Room, and points out the sides where he has life-sized statues in dynamic poses.

Shadow Lord: 'Why do you have statues of heroes in your... wait...'

*Shadow Lord senses life energies within the statues...

'Well well... I see what you mean... hahaha...'

Gorgon-Master: 'When I'm feeling down I come to my Throne Room and gaze upon my collection... sometimes I talk to them. They hear all my dealings, my plans for conquest...'

*Gorgon steps up to one and gives it a loving pat on the shoulder.

'They just can't do a thing about it... can you, Barbarian?'

I am soooo stealing that for an upcoming adventure. :eg:

Over the past several years, the city's heroes have been slowly vanishing...

The evil turns-people-into-living-statues-man is finally ready to unleash is fiendish plot. Meanwhile...

At the heroes base, the mentalist (or other psychicly sensitive type) hears a mental call of distress. It's faint... something about evil turns-people-into-living-statues-man a large diamond and a rubber hose... it's not very clear. Curious, the young mentalist tries to Mind Scan for the source... what he finds is the location of the villain's HQ and a desperate need to rescue the trapped heroes. Heroes who know of evil turns-people-into-living-statues-man's plan and how to stop it.

[prestidigitator]

I am soooo stealing that for an upcoming adventure. :eg:

Over the past several years, the city's heroes have been slowly vanishing...

The evil turns-people-into-living-statues-man is finally ready to unleash is fiendish plot. Meanwhile...

At the heroes base, the mentalist (or other psychicly sensitive type) hears a mental call of distress. It's faint... something about evil turns-people-into-living-statues-man a large diamond and a rubber hose... it's not very clear. Curious, the young mentalist tries to Mind Scan for the source... what he finds is the location of the villain's HQ and a desperate need to rescue the trapped heroes. Heroes who know of evil turns-people-into-living-statues-man's plan and how to stop it.
Yeah. And it would be fun for a new player to play one of the heros who has long been a statue in evil turns-people-into-living-statues-man's chambers. Boy, would that lead to some interesting Psychological Limitations, Knowledges, Hunteds, etc.

[Tugun Master]

I can see it now... Mentalist & Co defeat Evil-Gorgon-Man and return all those heroes back to their original forms.

One of whom dates back to the Golden Age Champions setting... All-American Man struggles to get to grips with decades as a statue... his family have all but given him up for dead, or have themselves passed on... technology (at least apart from that he's seen in the villain's chamber) is sooo different...

His old hunteds are now dead, ancient, or obscenely powerful... perhaps one or two are now good guys.... What's more All-American has a few phobias... one of which involves paralysis/petrification or to a lesser extent falling asleep...