Hand Attack

[ghost-angel]

I'm sitting here at work thinking about HERO (because work needs to be avoided right now) ... and since I don't have my rule book on me the thought is really off the top of my head.

Instead of HA being +5STR; Only For Hand Attack what if it were redefined to +1D6EB; No Range (assuming that I'm correclty remembering that No Range is also a -1/2 Lim).

That would keep it at the same point cost, same AP level and remove the issue of it being something that adds to STR.

[Gary]

I'm sitting here at work thinking about HERO (because work needs to be avoided right now) ... and since I don't have my rule book on me the thought is really off the top of my head.

Instead of HA being +5STR; Only For Hand Attack what if it were redefined to +1D6EB; No Range (assuming that I'm correclty remembering that No Range is also a -1/2 Lim).

That would keep it at the same point cost, same AP level and remove the issue of it being something that adds to STR.


If it were bought as EB, then Str couldn't add to it. Which would be kinda silly if you're trying to build something like a club.

[ghost-angel]

Ah yes, I knew there was a reason the whole thought was flawed....

I should learn not to think at work.

[Dust Raven]

I don't think of HA as being STR or even related to STR. I personally don't think that relation should have been put in the book, but alas...

First off, it doesn't act like STR. It isn't halved by things that halve the STR value.

Second, it doesn't add in reverse. It adds to STR, but STR doesn't add to it.

It's just a Damag Class with a Limitation that says it can only be used in HTH combat and only when adding to damage done by STR.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't think of HA as being STR or even related to STR. I personally don't think that relation should have been put in the book, but alas...

First off, it doesn't act like STR. It isn't halved by things that halve the STR value.

Second, it doesn't add in reverse. It adds to STR, but STR doesn't add to it.

It's just a Damag Class with a Limitation that says it can only be used in HTH combat and only when adding to damage done by STR.

As opposed to a 4 point "+1 DC w/ Martial Arts", which can add only to martial maneuvers, but affects all types of STR applications, such as holding SR for grabs, KA's and NND maneuvers.

[RDU Neil]

As opposed to a 4 point "+1 DC w/ Martial Arts", which can add only to martial maneuvers, but affects all types of STR applications, such as holding SR for grabs, KA's and NND maneuvers.

Absolutely true, but further evidence that Martial Arts (one of my favorite aspects of Hero) is vastly undercosted as well, because it is based on "STR with lims" for the most part.

Marital Arts maneuvers are so cheap because they are based on the idea, "If they are five points or more in cost, might as well just buy five points of STR and get ALL the bonuses of STR." (I'm not saying you don't know this... just stating the obvious.)

Hand Attack/Martial Arts, etc. They only crack the game system because STR costs half of what it should. Upping STR to 2 points per 1 would truly balance a lot more of the game... and with current character point inflation as it is... would not be as bad as 2 points per 1 at 200 point character levels.

(Also... once STR was more balanced in cost, it might be considerable to drop Elemental Controls from the game and all the problems they bring... since essentialy the EC was designed to give the Blaster character an EB, Force Field and Flight at a point break to balance them with the brick.)

Again, I'm probably preaching to the choir here... but the Strength Cascade Problem (as I call it) is a perenial discussion... and I figured I'd be the one to resurrect it from the shallow grave this time! :)

[schir1964]

I don't think of HA as being STR or even related to STR. I personally don't think that relation should have been put in the book, but alas...

First off, it doesn't act like STR. It isn't halved by things that halve the STR value.

Second, it doesn't add in reverse. It adds to STR, but STR doesn't add to it.

It's just a Damag Class with a Limitation that says it can only be used in HTH combat and only when adding to damage done by STR.
And don't forget the restriction that if you can't use your normal STR, you can't use the HA either. It was definately intended to be some type of STR, but I think a better mechanic could be constructed.

- Christopher Mullins

[Old Man]

Instead of HA being +5STR; Only For Hand Attack what if it were redefined to +1D6EB; No Range (assuming that I'm correclty remembering that No Range is also a -1/2 Lim).

You also have to deal with the guys that want to Missile Deflect it.

[Dust Raven]

And don't forget the restriction that if you can't use your normal STR, you can't use the HA either. It was definately intended to be some type of STR, but I think a better mechanic could be constructed.

- Christopher Mullins

Only HA is the better mechanic. All one has to do is stop thinking it's STR with a Limitation.

[Dust Raven]

As opposed to a 4 point "+1 DC w/ Martial Arts", which can add only to martial maneuvers, but affects all types of STR applications, such as holding SR for grabs, KA's and NND maneuvers.

Well, I tend to think of the Martial Arts DC as STR with Modifiers, but it's other things too and really isn't STR either (after all, it adds directly to the KAs and the NND and even the Flashes, so it can't be STR).

[prestidigitator]

All I have to say is, think on this one: how common are Str Drains, and how effective are they? :)

[NuSoardGraphite]

You also have to deal with the guys that want to Missile Deflect it.

I would rule that you can't Missile Deflect a No Range power. Missile Deflect only works against Ranged attacks. If an attack has No Range, then it can't be deflected, however, it might be blockable, depending on the SFX.

[Silbeg]

Instead of HA being +5STR; Only For Hand Attack what if it were redefined to +1D6EB; No Range (assuming that I'm correclty remembering that No Range is also a -1/2 Lim).


I don't think of HA as being STR or even related to STR. I personally don't think that relation should have been put in the book, but alas...


I would agree, Dust Raven.

In fact, it would make as much sense to make HAs as EB (no range) as it would be to make HKAs just RKA (no range).

While the mandatory -½ lim to me seems a little wonky, it is mostly done as a balance. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just buy it as +X STR, no figured?

However, the mechanic is definately different than both STR and EBs. The biggest difference is how the advantages added to an HA are inherited by the STR DCs (without prorating the STR), as long as the DC of STR added does not exceed the dice of the HA attack.

My only beef with HAs is this inheritance of advantages. It is the only combat mechanism that allows this, all others (such as movement damage, and HKAs) require that the added damage be pro-rated by the advantage.

[Dust Raven]

I would rule that you can't Missile Deflect a No Range power. Missile Deflect only works against Ranged attacks. If an attack has No Range, then it can't be deflected, however, it might be blockable, depending on the SFX.

That's not entirely true. A Power could be "ranged" but only have a range on "adjacent hex". It could also be a Power that simulates a HTH attack that is so fast that you need to be able to deflect missiles to block it (as opposed to just deflect punches).

[Dust Raven]

I would agree, Dust Raven.

In fact, it would make as much sense to make HAs as EB (no range) as it would be to make HKAs just RKA (no range).

While the mandatory -½ lim to me seems a little wonky, it is mostly done as a balance. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just buy it as +X STR, no figured?

However, the mechanic is definately different than both STR and EBs. The biggest difference is how the advantages added to an HA are inherited by the STR DCs (without prorating the STR), as long as the DC of STR added does not exceed the dice of the HA attack.

My only beef with HAs is this inheritance of advantages. It is the only combat mechanism that allows this, all others (such as movement damage, and HKAs) require that the added damage be pro-rated by the advantage.

As an idea, I would suggest costing HA at 5 points per d6, having no Limitation and allowing it to be used without adding or using STR (like an HKA can be used). The lack of range and lack of stuff an equivalnt amount of STR gives you is made up by the inheritance of Advangates when adding STR to the damage and the fact that you can use more STR than DC in HA (without the Advantages) which you can't do with an HKA.

[Silbeg]

As an idea, I would suggest costing HA at 5 points per d6, having no Limitation and allowing it to be used without adding or using STR (like an HKA can be used). The lack of range and lack of stuff an equivalnt amount of STR gives you is made up by the inheritance of Advangates when adding STR to the damage and the fact that you can use more STR than DC in HA (without the Advantages) which you can't do with an HKA.

I have also thought about that. In fact, removing the lim means that it becomes possible to add "Ranged" to the power, which would be useful at times. I would also want to use the HKA damage adding rules, but we still have the issues of the "doubling rule"... since, by definition (and according to Steve Long) HAs actually add to STR damage, not the other way around. I think. At a given moment...

[Hyper-Man]

...snip...since, by definition (and according to Steve Long) HAs actually add to STR damage, not the other way around. I think. At a given moment...

This is true on the surface but, if there are any Advantages on the HA then there is automatically an active point limit placed on the amount of STR that can be used in combination HA. Basically, only Xd6 of STR can be combined with Xd6 of HA w/Advantages no matter the amount or type of Advantages. It seems to me like STR is adding damage to the HA in this case. See page 408 in 5ER or page 272 5E for details.

HM

[prestidigitator]

:sigh: Somehow all of this seemed just so much simpler in 4th ed. Or maybe before I started reading FAQs. :(

[Dust Raven]

:sigh: Somehow all of this seemed just so much simpler in 4th ed. Or maybe before I started reading FAQs. :(

Seems so, but then again, last time I played a 4th edition game was early of 2002 right before 5th was released, and by that time 4th had been out and analysed by everyone for over 10 years. 5th edition is only a baby and already has a Revised Edition. With any luck we'll just stick to this for a while... at least it till we get so used to it that it becomes simple.

[ghost-angel]

Dust Raven started in on my final thoughts on the matter (little did I know one moment of mind numbing boredom would spark an entire discussion...)

There should only be two basic Attacks: Killing and Normal.

Killing Attacks cost the same whether they are ranged or not (RKA and HKA are both 15pts/D6).

Normal Attacks should be the same .. 5pts/D6 you define if they are Ranged or Hand when purchasing, neither really conveys any advantage over the other (as with KAs). Then we get to have RNA and HNA to add to the HERO Alphabet Soup!

The same limitation of STR cannot more than Double an HKA would apply to an HNA..

Now all we're stuck with is the problem of does no one have a basic punching attack based on STR? Or, if yes is it just your STR like it is now? Or some other mechanic?

That one I'll have to think on a spell.

[Gary]

Dust Raven started in on my final thoughts on the matter (little did I know one moment of mind numbing boredom would spark an entire discussion...)

There should only be two basic Attacks: Killing and Normal.

Killing Attacks cost the same whether they are ranged or not (RKA and HKA are both 15pts/D6).

Normal Attacks should be the same .. 5pts/D6 you define if they are Ranged or Hand when purchasing, neither really conveys any advantage over the other (as with KAs). Then we get to have RNA and HNA to add to the HERO Alphabet Soup!

The same limitation of STR cannot more than Double an HKA would apply to an HNA..

Now all we're stuck with is the problem of does no one have a basic punching attack based on STR? Or, if yes is it just your STR like it is now? Or some other mechanic?

That one I'll have to think on a spell.


This won't work because Str is artificially cheap. Who would ever buy 6d6 HNA when they could buy 30 Str at the same price and get the lift, leap, and figured characteristics in addition to the damage?

[ghost-angel]

This won't work because Str is artificially cheap. Who would ever buy 6d6 HNA when they could buy 30 Str at the same price and get the lift, leap, and figured characteristics in addition to the damage?

Those who aren't powergaming?

good point though, STR should probably be a 2/1.

Or perhaps everyone gets a standard/"free" attack of 1/2 STR.. a 30 STR oly gets 3D6 HNA, effectively making STR 2/1 for the purposes of attacks...

still thinking on it...

[Dust Raven]

:weep: Gary's right.... you hear that fellas? Hell's frozen over... Gary's right. ;)

I suppose that's why there has to be a Limitation on the HA... so that it's Active Cost is in line with the other attack powers, but it's real cost is reduced because it is more effective to buy STR over HA if they cost the same.

Only with the currently rules, it's the same cost to buy STR and HA. STR, No Figured Characteristics is the same cost as HA. Is that balanced?

STR: 1d6/5 Damage
Lifting/Throwing
Value adds to HA and HKA
Value adds to Martial Arts Maneuvers
Adds to STR Roll
Casual STR

HA: 1d6/5 Damage
Value not halved with Move By
Added STR inherits Advantages (other than Reduce END) up to double HA dice
Added STR can have higher value than HA (with no Advantages inherited)
Affected seperately from STR Drains (and other Adjustment Powers)

Mmm... I guess it's up to interpretation. It looks like STR gets quite a bit, and some of the stuff for HA only counts if it's bought with Advantages which will alter the overall cost. Same thing with STR and Martial Arts Maneuvers, HA and HKA. If those aren't purchased as well, those qualities don't count. Still a tough call, but they look balanced enough for me. Maybe HA really should just be left as is after all.