Steve, a further clarification :)

[zornwil]

In the response to a clarification request, you wrote "While we're certainly not perfect here, we do make an effort to follow the rules as closely as we can, and to note exceptions where relevant."

I think the larger issue is that Hero Designer is pretty explicit about NOT making exceptions. The issue here is how flexible HD should be or not be. Practically speaking, those tolerable exceptions that are relevant I (and a few others anyway) feel should be reflected with warnings as opposed to errors BECAUSE (and to be on topic in this forum) THAT IS HOW THE RULES ARE - um, I think? An advantage not normally applied to something but granted once in a blue moon is...by the book? That is the crux of the question to me. And that is the real question - are the exceptions specifically indicated in the rules, well, for lack of a better word, rules themselves?

That then leads to the corollary they ought to be reflected in HD - though that is a separate conversation. Admittedly, I am setting up, as it were, the basis for that discussion which in and of itself does not apply to this forum.

To be clear, I am getting (temporarily) off my other soapbox and I am NOT talking about anything fundamental, such as changing algorithms or embedding frameworks inside frameworks. Rather, this is all about "is it publishable?".

Feel free to send this to a different forum, but, Steve, either way I'd be interested in your response. Thank you.

[Steve Long]

I've moved this since it's not appropriate for "HERO System Rules." Since I don't read the HD board most of the time, I probably won't see any responses, but since I was asked to comment, I'm commenting. ;)

Generally speaking, Dan has designed HD the way I asked him to. There are a few places where, because I don't want the program to allow variation from the published rules, or because of various programming limitations Dan has to work with, the program has to restrict customizability. But in the vast majority of instances, it allows for a great deal of flexibility and adaptation (so much so that it causes Dan significant problems), or lets you use various "Custom" options to create whatever you want. HD is, I think, extremely flexible, and as flexible as it generally needs to be.

I have no problem with HD not making exceptions for every little thing. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think using the text of the rulebook to draw that line is a reasonable thing to do. HD can't be totally flexible; it has to provide some structure. Otherwise it's pretty much just a spreadsheet with a little bit of built-in user-friendliness programming, and that's not what we want to sell -- since I'm pretty sure everyone who owns HD also owns a spreadsheet program and a word processing program, and won't buy another one from us. ;)

Typically, when we publish something in a book that changes or violates a rule (such as Captain Chronos's Entangle NND), we try to make note of what we're doing in the text, and why. Otherwise it's generally safe to assume that what's done in a book is legal (though subject to errata-ing if need be:)). We're not perfect, as I freely admit, and we'll correct any problems, oversights, or errors that arise as circumstances permit.

[Simon]

To continue on this: I have yet to have any instance of a published ability not being replicable in HD (that has not been errata'd). The example given from TE was a misunderstanding on the part of the poster....it was not a +2 SL, it was +2 on the Skill itself. Skills can have Modifiers applied to them.

There are very few areas in HD which are "forced" that I can think of offhand....and all of them are either quite explicit in the rules or were stated by Steve to be explicit and immutable.

When FREd phrases things as "with GM's permission" HD generally allows them.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dsimon
Skills can have Modifiers applied to them.
How do you buy a +1 to a skill in Hero Designer if that skill has a Limitation? Are you supposed to use the Custom Skill choice and just fudge it?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith
How do you buy a +1 to a skill in Hero Designer if that skill has a Limitation? Are you supposed to use the Custom Skill choice and just fudge it?

Just buy the Skill with any levels that you want and add on the Modifiers.

For example: Systems Operation; Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2) 13-
(7 Active/5 Real)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dsimon
Just buy the Skill with any levels that you want and add on the Modifiers.

For example: Systems Operation; Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2) 13-
(7 Active/5 Real)
But in this case we are talking about just the additional plusses.

Computer Programming 11-
+6 Computer Programming OAF
Total cost 9 points.

Is not the same as:

Computer Programming 17- OAF
Total Cost 7 points.

If you do not want the Limitation on the entire skill but only on the additional plusses (as in Zornwill's example) do you just use the Custom Skill?

[Simon]

Here's the deal (after a talk with Steve):

1. The wording in FREd for Skill Levels is off. There is (in his words) no reason to buy +1 with a Skill Roll when the Skills themselves contain the rules for increasing their rolls. That wording needs to be changed to "+1 with one Characteristic Roll"

2. The example cited is, effectively, a "partially limited Skill". There are different mods applied to the Skill and to the levels on the roll. For the time being, you are perfectly able to work this by way of a Custom Skill (just set the display to whatever you want it to read). For example: buy Systems Operation and then buy a Custom Skill called "+2 to Systems Operation Roll" for 4 points and apply any mods that you want.

I will look into simplifying this procedure in v2, but I won't make any promises. The fact of the matter is that you can create the ability as listed in TE without issue in HD. If incorporating the ability to "partially limit" a Skill makes the normal construction of Skills (non partially-limited) too cumbersome, then it will not be included.

[Heroman]

Trivial.
Create a List, apply the foci limitation to it, add in the Skill Levels (1 Skill).

Computer Programming Tools, all slots: OAF (-1)
6 1) Computer Programming Levels: +6 with single Characteristic Roll (12 Active Points)

OR
Skill Levels with the custom adder to 'reduce' based on calculated saving for your limitations.

That is 2 ways right there...

[Simon]

Originally posted by Heroman
Trivial.
Create a List, apply the foci limitation to it, add in the Skill Levels (1 Skill).

Computer Programming Tools, all slots: OAF (-1) 6
1) Computer Programming Levels: +6 with single Characteristic Roll (12 Active Points)

OR
Skill Levels with the custom adder to 'reduce' based on calculated saving for your limitations.

That is 2 ways right there...

That would be my point....there is extremely little that HD does not allow you to do. The only things that I can think of offhand are either complete deviations from the Hero System (like new Characteristics) or are explicitly verboten by Steve.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dsimon
The fact of the matter is that you can create the ability as listed in TE without issue in HD. If incorporating the ability to "partially limit" a Skill makes the normal construction of Skills (non partially-limited) too cumbersome, then it will not be included.
Just as point of reference, the only reason the original need to try and emulate that ability was listed here was because there was no other "official" alternative to buying additional plusses to a skill when those plusses had Advantages or Limitations. Since a +1 Skill Level for a single skill cost 2 points, and a +1 to Computer Programming cost 2 points, it seemed like a logical leap to buy the Skill Level and then attempt to put Limitation on it.

As someone who has literally entered thousands of powers and skills from the various HERO System books and manuscripts, I can say that I have used that method several times as well. I have just ended up putting a Custom Modifier onto the Skill Levels rather than trying to use the unsupported Limitation.

[Heroman]

Just curious Monolith, how do you do Custom Modifier on Skill Levels? I only get a Custom Adder on my version for Skill Levels. Do you mean a custom Adder that has the custom adder name reflect the OAF?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Heroman
Just curious Monolith, how do you do Custom Modifier on Skill Levels? I only get a Custom Adder on my version for Skill Levels. Do you mean a custom Adder that has the custom adder name reflect the OAF?
Sorry about that. Yes, I meant to say Custom Adder.

Of course I have no idea why Combat Skill levels cannot have Limitations. The Champions books are loaded with examples of people buying +3 Multipower OIF armor, and there are example weapons which give plusses to OCV (and are Focused) which cannot be purchased because of Dan's Skill Level Limitation restriction.

[Heroman]

The Champions books are loaded with examples of people buying +3 Multipower OIF armor
Isn't this just a Multipower, which does in fact allow for limitations? (not sure exactly what you mean by +3 MP OIF armor; MP which has armor slots?)


example weapons which give plusses to OCV (and are Focused) which cannot be purchased because of Dan's Skill Level Limitation restriction.
Actually, I would just use the List feature which allows adv/lims on all members of the list...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Heroman
Isn't this just a Multipower, which does in fact allow for limitations? (not sure exactly what you mean by +3 MP OIF armor; MP which has armor slots?)
There are characters who have: +3 Levels with Multipower, OAF Gun or OIF Armor.


Actually, I would just use the List feature which allows adv/lims on all members of the list...
At the time I did not realize that was an option, but it would have been much simpler than using the Custom Adders. :)

Personally I do not see what the big deal is. If I want: +2 Ranged Levels OAF-sniper scope, I just just be able to click on the Combat Level and then click on Add Modifier.

Needs some examples of this:

+5 DCV, Cost END (used a lot in the books)
Warlord's Tactical Computer (5 different levels, OIF)
Nightwind's Desert Eagle (Level with OAF)
Virtually the entire "stances" Multipower for Green Dragon
UNTIL weapons (+1 OCV, OAF)
MCPD weapons (+1OCV, OAF)

That is just the ones I can remember off the top of my head. How many examples from published books are needed to get the problem fixed? I'm sure I could find a dozen more if need be.

[Heroman]

Personally I do not see what the big deal is. If I want: +2 Ranged Levels OAF-sniper scope, I just just be able to click on the Combat Level and then click on Add Modifier.
Actually, looking back, no. Combat Skill Levels, Penalty Skill Levels, and regular Skill levels all mandate a minimal purchase before limitations can be purchased, that is why the app does it. If you adjust any of the 3 to the book defined minimum, the Limitation buttons appears.
Skill Levels must be the 3 pointers
PSLs must be the 3 pointers
CSL must be the 5 pointers (creating a foci with CSL is explicity used).
I would guess, if they were for some reason built below the allowed levels, that it was something custom and not according to the rules. May have to check the FAQ to see if buying that level for the 3/2 skill is also affecte...

[Monolith]

You are very correct. I apologize to Dan and everyone else.

I already knew about the 5 point minimum, it just sometimes is hard to get used to the fact that you have to do certain things in a specific order (changing the level to 5 points, or buying Continuous before Damage Shield).

[Heroman]

or buying Continuous before Damage Shield

Lol, heeey.........

[zornwil]

To be fair, not being a rules lawyer, I am not sure how many deviations from the rules are reflected in the supplement write-ups. I heard of a couple mainly via the forums and the only one I could really think of had to do with the 2-point CSLs mentioned earlier.

Regarding Steve's answer, I of course understand that his/DOJ's purpose is to enforce the rules in the software. However, I would argue that the books should then follow suit and if the rules are broken in an actual character or base or vehicle write-up that said write-up is formatted in such a matter that it is reasonably obvious how to "get around" the rules break in HD. I don't mean a lot of extra space be taken up with "how to" explanations, but rather that the format of the writeup have something clear such as "Custom Advantage <X>" or "<rules exception>" called out in the write-up. In that manner at least one thing will be accomplished - we won't bug Dan complaining that HD "should" allow the construct. As I consider it, that is the real crux of this PARTICULAR issue, the one I posed in the rules thread as opposed to an HD thread.

However, I would state that these deviations, however occassional, point to why ultimately HD ought be designed with a flexibility not currently envisioned by DOJ. The purpose of HERO is flexibility based on some underlying core constructs. Taking for granted for the moment that "core constructs" is tighter than my own personal definition, that means that the deviations we see in the books are indicative of how one still plays an orthodox HERO game. Such orthodoxy still introduces the application of lims and advs (to name but one area) in manners not explicated clearly but also, as far as I can tell, often not specifically banned ("with GM's permission" as Steve put it) and moreso left to GMs within the HERO ruleset. While of course I grant that HD allows for tweaks the same as any tool, with the ubiquitous "custom" allowances, I would counter that instead "GM permission" when given as such in the ruleset and when engaged in sourcebooks constitutes an actual standard practice. And standard practice ought to be enshrined in HD with better representation than utilizing the same manner in which one might create less orthodox constructs. This would best be represented in most cases by reducing some "errors" to "warnings". Bear in mind I am speaking here specifically of where HERO rules are customarily bent and have received a de facto official sanction by usage in HERO material. I am not speaking of house rules otherwise not represented in HERO material. Thus to be further clear, I am not even speaking of the flexibility that I personally believe should be in HD, which is entirely another matter. I am speaking here of logical consistency from HERO as opposed to a change in the practice of HERO.

Anyway, I appreciate the feedback from Steve and Dan.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by zornwil
...writeup have something clear such as "Custom Advantage <X>" or "<rules exception>" ...

Sorry, I used the angular bracket symbols, whose name I've forgotten,a nd they dropped out of the display because of HTML parsing. It should have read "Custom Advantage (x)" or "(rules exception)".

[Simon]

<b>Again</b>, you're referring to deviations that do not exist.

There are no deviations from the rules in published characters (or vehicles, or bases) that Steve has "validated" (essentially saying "yes, we chose to bend/break the rules in this case, it's not an error"). There have been cases in published books where errors were found (see the errata pages). There have been cases in published books where folks have misunderstood how an ability is being constructed (as in the case mentioned). But there have been no cases of outright rules violations which have not been errata'd.

When there is a case of "with GM's option" in the rules, HD allows the construction to occur. As we move forward, these "GM's options" items will be summarized on the preferences screen with toggles to set their availability. For now, they're just "turned on".

Just to be very, very clear: I am aware of NO cases of published characters or powers or abilities that cannot be constructed within HD as it currently stands.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dsimon
Just to be very, very clear: I am aware of NO cases of published characters or powers or abilities that cannot be constructed within HD as it currently stands.
You should add: ... as long as someone is willing to construct the ability with a Custom Power/Skill/Talent/Perk/Disadvantage.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith
You should add: ... as long as someone is willing to construct the ability with a Custom Power/Skill/Talent/Perk/Disadvantage.
Correct, though the cases in which you need to use the Custom abilities are primarily restricted to "rarities" in the rules (like partially limited Skills).

As HD continues to grow, these cases will become rarer...the main limiting factor is keeping the interface "clean and intuitive" and not bogging it down with too much unnecessary baggage that will confuse users.

While I've got a couple ideas that I want to try on the partially limited Skills issue, this is a good example to use. The users that would want to create partially limited Skills are, by and large, advanced users of the Hero System....users who can easily create a Custom Power for the levels, since they know exactly how many points it costs to increase Skill X by a level. If including the ability to partially limit a Skill made the interface for creating a regular (non partially llimited Skill) significantly more complex than it currently is, then I would say that it is not worth including.

[Heroman]

Actually, I think there is a decent chunk of powers which require using custom abilities. One key are are Partially Limited Powers where the adders are limited (like Teleports increased mass) or a component is alterer (such as EC's increased radius which is in fact not an adder). Steve indicated stuff like this falls in the "with GM's permission http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3049"
I would expect that the '+s' to a skill roll bought up in a PLP would be similar to the EC's Increased radius, but this seems like it would require a fairly major adjustment, perhaps v2 big.
The only thing I could think of is treating powers special when in a compound power (allow them to be bought down to 0, so you can just select adders)...

[Simon]

Originally posted by Heroman
Actually, I think there is a decent chunk of powers which require using custom abilities. One key are are Partially Limited Powers where the adders are limited (like Teleports increased mass) or a component is alterer (such as EC's increased radius which is in fact not an adder). Steve indicated stuff like this falls in the "with GM's permission http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3049"
I would expect that the '+s' to a skill roll bought up in a PLP would be similar to the EC's Increased radius, but this seems like it would require a fairly major adjustment, perhaps v2 big.
The only thing I could think of is treating powers special when in a compound power (allow them to be bought down to 0, so you can just select adders)...

Look, we're going in circles here. <b>AGAIN</b>, you are talking about "rarities" in the Hero System. Can they be done in HD? Yes. Using Custom Powers (or whatever) you can do pretty much anything that you want.

Including the ability to partially limit each individual Adder in every Power would make the Power definition screens so unbelievable cumbersome and difficult to use that, while the 1 person in 1000 who actually needs to create a partially limited Adder would be able to do it, everyone who simply wanted to buy Teleport would be hopelessly confused.

There is no reaons whatsoever to change the way these things work on a grand scale. As HD continues to grow, some of the items that are currently handled through Custom Powers or the like will be incorporated into the core abilities....but certainly not all.

I think this conversation is at an end.