Is it possible to Aid OCV?

[McCoy]

I want to create a power that improves my teammates chance to hit the opponents, my PC gives a Captain America-esque pep talk and the other PC's find their "to hit" boosted by a pip or two.

First thought was levels useable by others, but that just seemed to lack elegance.

So I thought of Aid. Aid specifically is used to "increase one of his or someone else's Characteristics or Powers." While OCV is somewhat like a secondary Characteristic, don't think it has ever been offically designated as one.

Is OCV enough like a Characteristic that it can be Aided, and if so how many Character Points would be necessary to Aid OCV +1. (I'm thinking 5, like a 5 point combat level. On the other hand, were I Aiding DEX, a 9 point boost would result in +1 OCV and +1 DCV, so 9/2 = 4.5 which if we round in favor of the character would be 4.)

Or is there a more elegant solution to get the same effect that I have overlooked ?

Looking forward to all thoughts and opinions, and thanking everyone in advance.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Well, OCV isn't a Characteristic, so I don't think it could be Aided. I'll admit my first thought was Levels, Usable By Other, Extra Time (full phase), Incantations to Start, but you say that lacks elegance so it's not what you're looking for.

Hmmm.

Change Environment can apply small negative effects in an area; -1 OCV, -1 to DEX checks, that sort of thing. (These could be, for example, the effects of filling the area with fog or coating the ground with ice, respectively.) So could you have a small positive effect using Change Environment? IDHTBIFOM, so I can't check off hand.

[TheEmerged]

Officially, Change Environment can't give bonuses.

Unofficially, I ran a few tests on allowing this and IMO it comes out a little too cheaply for the effect -- on the other hand, CSL's with UBO are a little more expensive than I care for. Maybe if I made Selective a +1/2 advantage instead of +1/4...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Officially, Change Environment can't give bonuses.

Unofficially, I ran a few tests on allowing this and IMO it comes out a little too cheaply for the effect -- on the other hand, CSL's with UBO are a little more expensive than I care for. Maybe if I made Selective a +1/2 advantage instead of +1/4...Okay, that doesn't surprise me. (That officially it doesn't allow positives, I mean.) If they come out a little too cheaply, then what about allowing positives, but making them cost twice as much per + as the CE normally charges for each - ?

[McCoy]

Change Enviroment "cannot provide positive effects or bonuses . . .."

Maybe use CE to -1 from opponents' DCV? Still seems to lack elegance.

[Gary]

You could probably have him do a Presence Attack with how much he makes his Oratory as a bonus. It would require a little handwaving, but you could rule that every +10 on the result means +1 OCV. Thus cynical jaded people (high Pre Defense or Ego) would derive less benefit which seems to fit the 'feel' of what you're looking for.

[ghost-angel]

AID: DEX; Only to give a bonus to targets OCV -1 1/2

not sure about the appropriateness of that Lim Level on it, but it feels right. Maybe even a -2 considering everything else DEX does.

[Champsguy]

Dex Aid, Area Effect, only provides OCV (-1).

[Champsguy]

AID: DEX; Only to give a bonus to targets OCV -1 1/2

not sure about the appropriateness of that Lim Level on it, but it feels right. Maybe even a -2 considering everything else DEX does.

Ah, you beat me to it.

[ghost-angel]

Ah, you beat me to it.

That's ok, now we can hash out whose Limitation Value is more appropriate.

Any particular reason you chose -1 instead of something higher? Seeing as DEX provides SPD, DCV and Initiative Order for those going on the same Phase. as well as a host of combat related Skills.

[Champsguy]

That's ok, now we can hash out whose Limitation Value is more appropriate.

Any particular reason you chose -1 instead of something higher? Seeing as DEX provides SPD, DCV and Initiative Order for those going on the same Phase. as well as a host of combat related Skills.

Seemed like the value that Hero would give for it. Often the "limited power" limitation gets undervalued in the official products. I went with the less controversial number, though I could certainly see the limitation value being higher. Also remember that Aiding Dex doesn't boost Spd.

[Dr. Anomaly]

In the listing of Lightning Reflexes, they give a -1 for "Dex only to act first in a phase", so -1 is probably what it'd be if it were an 'official' example.

Personally, though, I'm rather partial to Gary's idea! :D

[Phil]

Isnt there something about AIDed characteristics not affecting Figured CHARs? In which case AIDing DEX only increases three things (that I can think of!): Skill Levels, OCV and initiative. So only to increase CV certainly shouldnt be any more than -1, and personally I'd probably go for -1/2

[Hugh Neilson]

For OCV only, I'd go a -1 limitation.

Mind you, I'd probably allow "Aid OCV" at 5 points per in the first place, which is not far off the same end result. After all, you can Aid a character who has 0 STR, so why not treat "+0 OCV levels" as being an Aid-able stat as well? After all, everyone has an OCV.

The DEX aid, only OCV, seems more elegant, though. 3d5 at Standard Effect = +1 OCV (+2 if used twice). Link it to a PRE attack, or even some variation on RSR to require a successful PRE attack, to get the specific effect desired.

[Sean Waters]

The problem with Aid: (limited) DEX is that the active points cost is going to be real high, which is a problem if you use active points caps and want a reasonably meaty power (you'll need 27 points of effect to manage +3OCV)

Other options: personally I don't see that levels UBO is too clunky - certainly less so than working out the DEX increase (at 3 points per point) then working out the effect on OCV (at 3 points pf DEX per point) but with just a smidge of handwaving you could AID to OCV levels (5 points), so you don't need to do anything complicated. The cost works out about the same and the mechanics are far simpler. The handwaving comes in in assuming that part of the basic OCV is combat skill: not everyone has CSLs so not everyone could benefit from the AID if you play it straight. :)

[NuSoardGraphite]

I want to create a power that improves my teammates chance to hit the opponents, my PC gives a Captain America-esque pep talk and the other PC's find their "to hit" boosted by a pip or two.

First thought was levels useable by others, but that just seemed to lack elegance.

I have a question:

Why is "elegance" even a consideration here?

Shouldn't the goal be to simulate the ability as accurately as possible, irregardless of how it is written up, as long as it doesn't violate the spirit of the rules (for Rules Lawyers anyway)

In this case, I think Skill levels, usable by others is exactly what the character needs for this ability. Thats exactly what he's doing...giving the other characters skill levels to improve their OCV's...

Whats so "inelegant" about that?

[Dust Raven]

There is a power called Array in the Ninja Hero (and maybe UMA) that is close to what you are looking for. It's basicaly an Aid (to one's own) DEX that only affects the character's OCV and DCV. I think that Limitation was a -1/2, so a -1 for just OCV should be about right. Take off the Self Only (actually change it to Others Only) and add Range and you've got your Ability. The Captain would have to use an action and pick a teammate to give the bonus to.

To make it usable by a number of teammates simultaneously (like a leadership aura) you can remove the Range and replace with AE: Radius Selective, so all team members within a certain radius of the capatain will receive a bonus, but none of the bad guys will. (the draw back here is that he can still only add it to friendlies he can see).

If you go with CSL that are usable by others, it gets a bit tricky with the Modifiers, but the end result would end up looking a lot like the Aid. The main difference is that with the CSL, you don't have to roll for the effect (which you can also avoid with the Standard Effect), or figure out how much added DEX increases the OCV because it's all been done for you.

[prestidigitator]

I think it is best represented by CSLs that are Usable by Others. Probably 5-pointers (are they only HTH?) or 8-pointers that are OCV Only (-3/4 or -1, as per the difference between Overall Levels and DCV Levels). Aid to Dex or CSLs could work too, though if you wanted to apply them to friends (and friends only) during battle they would probably have to be AoE, Selective--though maybe you could just wave it away if you used RSR: Presence (see below).

For Gary's use of Presence, I might make it apply via a RSR, but I wouldn't likely allow it to give a straight bonus to OCV unless it were a very dramatic situation. More likely it would conteract any penalties imposed by enemy Presence Attacks, Mental Powers, or simple morale issues (especially if those you are aiding are NPCs).

Whether or not you were to allow Change Environment to provide bonuses or not, I would personally rule that all penalties (or bonuses) apply to both friends and enemies within/acting through the affected area, unless your friends have Powers/Skills/equipment that will specifically allow them to overcome the inconveniences of the particular environmental change you are causing, or enemies have a particular Susceptibility/aversion to said changes.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The construct I would go with are CSL's (8pt levels so they are usable with any attack) Usable By Others (so the characters who gain the levels get to decide which attacks they apply to) with Area Effect-Radius Selective (selective so only the characters Allies recieve the benefit of course) with a Requires Skill Roll limitation and the skill roll would be Oratory skill :)

[TheEmerged]

I didn't say CSL/UBO was clunky, I said it comes out a little more expensive than I feel it is useful.

[Blue]

Change Environment, Selective targeting? (Just trying ot think outside my usual box)

[Vondy]

Since OCV isn't a characteristic, I would argue it cannot be improved by the Aid power. You could Aid the base characteristic (Dex), but that isn't really what you are looking for.

What is the SFX? Is this a master tactician / master leader type of ability, or the result of some power?

If its the former I would suggest: +X All Combat Levels, Usable By Others (However Many, At Same Time), Requires Relevant Skill Roll, Must be Able to Communicate with Recipient.

If its just some wonky power ("blessing of the valkyrie," etc.): +X All Combat Levels, Usable By Others (However Many, At Same Time), Costs End

[prestidigitator]

Selective Target Change Environment? I don't know. It is an interesting idea, but I don't think you are really targetting the characters inside a Change Environment. I think you are targetting, well, the environment. Heh. I suppose you could use it to target specific hexes, but there would be nothing to keep your enemies from moving around and/or doing Move Throughs to take over more beneficial spaces.

Good point on the Oratory. I like it. This could also be a use of the Tactics Skill, maybe with a large temporary bonus (SLs with End/Charges, Aid, etc.).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Good point on the Oratory. I like it. This could also be a use of the Tactics Skill, maybe with a large temporary bonus (SLs with End/Charges, Aid, etc.).

Ooh, I like!

CSL's UBO and RSR with Tactics as the skill. Represents a character who can coordinate a group to fight better.

Or how about:

CSL's UBO RSR with Teamwork, which represents characters who work better together. If everyone in the team bought +1 or +2 OCV this way and all make their rolls simultaneously...think about the OCV boost!!!!

[prestidigitator]

Ooh, I like!

CSL's UBO and RSR with Tactics as the skill. Represents a character who can coordinate a group to fight better.

Or how about:

CSL's UBO RSR with Teamwork, which represents characters who work better together. If everyone in the team bought +1 or +2 OCV this way and all make their rolls simultaneously...think about the OCV boost!!!!
Yeah. Good ideas. Actually, I was thinking more that it might just be a direct use of the Tactics Skill. Admittedly that isn't likely to give your allies a straight OCV bonus all of the time, but it may be enough to give them a small bonus in some situations, especially if you make an extreme skill roll (make it by 10 or more).

[McCoy]

I have a question:

Why is "elegance" even a consideration here?

Shouldn't the goal be to simulate the ability as accurately as possible, irregardless of how it is written up, as long as it doesn't violate the spirit of the rules (for Rules Lawyers anyway)

In this case, I think Skill levels, usable by others is exactly what the character needs for this ability. Thats exactly what he's doing...giving the other characters skill levels to improve their OCV's...

Whats so "inelegant" about that?
Perhapse "elegance" isn't the word. I know skills can be purchased as powers, but somehow in this case it just doesn't feel right. But it is probably what I will end up going with.

[McCoy]

What is the SFX? Is this a master tactician / master leader type of ability, or the result of some power?

If its the former I would suggest: +X All Combat Levels, Usable By Others (However Many, At Same Time), Requires Relevant Skill Roll, Must be Able to Communicate with Recipient.

If its just some wonky power ("blessing of the valkyrie," etc.): +X All Combat Levels, Usable By Others (However Many, At Same Time), Costs End
Character thinks that he is giving inspirational speech and improving moral/confidence of teammates. But as this is in a multipower with TK and Telepathy (and healing), there is probably a psionic "push" as well.

[Sean Waters]

UBO is potentially expensive because you have to decide how many people you can give levels to at one time and you may not use them.

With only a tiny bit of handwaving you could buy AID to improve a target's OCV by defining the 'bonus as 5 point 'offensive' levels. OK, not everyone has 5 point CSLs, but that is where the handwaving comes in: in effect everyone does but they are wrapped up in the DEX base OCV - they are just not expressly stated.

The only powers that allows you to add skills or powers to another person (other than by using UAA or change environment) is probably TRANSFORM (aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!).

You could always transform your target into a better fighter. In fact, depending on the sfx you had in mind, that might be ideal. Add incantations, and the power is basically you giving the target a pep and tactical talk on the upcoming combat which would then allow them to perdorm better. Probably not so useful in combat.

The other way might be Negative CSLs - area effect, selective, so that the enemy are easier to hit. Cap undermines their confidence and boosts his own team's morale...

Of course the other way to do it Cap-style would just be to make a massive presence attack, so all the enemies stand round with mouths open whilst Cap's buddies clean their clocks for them....

[Hugh Neilson]

Of course the other way to do it Cap-style would just be to make a massive presence attack, so all the enemies stand round with mouths open whilst Cap's buddies clean their clocks for them....

But Cap just as often, probably more, motivates his allies as undermines his enemies, something the PRE attack rules don't presently handle very well. I recall an old Marvel where Cap and the Thing, among others, were in combat, and the Thing is thinking something like "That's the thing about Cap - ya just can't let him down."

I think Aid to levels (on the approach that everyone has some number of levels, even if it's zero) is a reasonable approach. After all, if we can apply negative levels (ie drain them) to people who have none to begin with, why can't we also Aid them? You can't apply "Negative Energy Blast" or "Negative Armor" to someone who has no positive EB/Armor, nor can you aid their EB or Armor.

[prestidigitator]

UBO is potentially expensive because you have to decide how many people you can give levels to at one time and you may not use them.
True, but if you applied Area of Effect...I'm not sure if and how that would affect the maximum number of people who could use the Power. Maybe that's worth asking Steve Long, if it isn't already in the FAQs. At gut feel, I would probably allow it to affect everyone in the area, so long as they stayed in the area. I'd have to put more thought into it to come up with a real conclusion, though.


With only a tiny bit of handwaving you could buy AID to improve a target's OCV by defining the 'bonus as 5 point 'offensive' levels. OK, not everyone has 5 point CSLs, but that is where the handwaving comes in: in effect everyone does but they are wrapped up in the DEX base OCV - they are just not expressly stated.

The only powers that allows you to add skills or powers to another person (other than by using UAA or change environment) is probably TRANSFORM (aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!).
Heh. Yeah. Transform. I suppose you could apply a Cosmetic Transform that gave someone "+0 CSLs," or simply transformed them into, "someone who's CSLs can be Aided," then throw the Aid on them. LOL.

[prestidigitator]

I recall an old Marvel where Cap and the Thing, among others, were in combat, and the Thing is thinking something like "That's the thing about Cap - ya just can't let him down."
Hmm. Maybe that's more of a hinderence to his allies than a help; where they might retreat to gain a better advantage by tactical positioning, preparing, or retrieving some better equipment, his charisma just makes them keep on going without benefit of a chance to recover or recuperate. Maybe a Presence attack (or Mind Control) against his allies is appropriate. :D

[Hugh Neilson]

Hmm. Maybe that's more of a hinderence to his allies than a help; where they might retreat to gain a better advantage by tactical positioning, preparing, or retrieving some better equipment, his charisma just makes them keep on going without benefit of a chance to recover or recuperate. Maybe a Presence attack (or Mind Control) against his allies is appropriate. :D

I don't think so, primarily because Cap already has the tactical situation worked out. The Thing is more coming from the angle of "This guy's pretty tought, but if Cap needs me to keep him here, then he's going to stay here." It's almost a case of Cap's confidence in his allies boosting their own confidence, and their own abilities.

[McCoy]

It's almost a case of Cap's confidence in his allies boosting their own confidence, and their own abilities.
Yes. that is exactly what I am looking for. How do you create that in the Hero system?

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes. that is exactly what I am looking for. How do you create that in the Hero system?

Absent a greater treatise on "positive effects of PRE attacks", I think most of the possibilities above merit consideration. Levels UBO, possibly with an area of effect, would seem the best for Cap, since he inspires in all ways, so you likely need 10 point overall levels. RSR: PRE (or Oratory) roll, perhaps, and Incantations. Perhaps extra time to reflect the pep talk.

[Vondy]

Well, there is another option, but it wouldn't necessarily be specific to this character. In Ninja Hero, the staredown and taunting rules are based on a presence-versus-presence roll. The winner gets a CV bonus in the first phase after the staredown ends. You could create a leadership skill and have successful rolls give bonueses, dependent on the margins.

[Dust Raven]

Yes. that is exactly what I am looking for. How do you create that in the Hero system?

One of the things I came up with a while back are Teamwork Levels. Basically they are 8 point levels that only cost 5 points each, but can only be used when the majority of your team is present and you are following a plan in coordination with the others. The plan can be as simple as "I'll hit the big guy, you hit the small guy, and the rest of you take care of those agents" or a complex as "I'll grab the big guy so you can blast him, while he engangled the little guy and the other two throw down cover fire to keep the agents down for a moment." So long as the team is working as a team and not just members of a superbrawl they can use the levels.

An optional method, which saves a point or two, is to buy 8 point CSLs with RSR: Teamwork (or Tactics) and Only When Fighting With Over Half The Team (-1/4). With this write up, each Turn, the leader calls out his plan and makes a Teamwork Roll. For each point the roll is made by, the team gets one CSL (up to the max purchesed). Optionally, each member can make their own roll, and can even roll each Phase, but it's easier to just make one roll and only once a Turn.

The only "problem" with this is that every member of the team needs to pay for it, and it's only appropriate to a team that normally works together. For a character to inspire others he doesn't normally work with to the point where they receive bonuses CLSs UBO seem more appropriate.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I just had a "lightbulb" moment; I don't know if it will appeal to McCoy or not, but here it is:

Don't build it with various HERO system stuff...at least not directly.

Create a new Talent, and then use the "messy mechanics of building it" to get the basic point cost. It's just that, once built, you know how much it costs per level, and what the effects are. You don't need a descriptor a mile long on the character sheets, and more than you do for "Combat Luck." With "Combat Luck", you just write down "Combat Luck", right?

I'll use the example of creating the "Gift of Flight" spell in the text for the Usable On Others Advantage as a guide for how to build it, since the person doing the inspiring will be granting the ability to others, and not using it himself.

Inspirational

This talent represents the character's ability to inspire others to perform beyond their usual limits. The character using the Talent must make a short speech or similar verbal exhortation, and those who will benefit from the inspiration must be able to hear the character and understand him; this is a full-phase action. After the motivational speech, the character makes a PRE check; if the check is successful, he has inspired his listeners and they gain the benefits of the inspiration.

A character who has been inspired in this fashion gains one Overall Skill Level (+1 to any Skill roll or Combat roll) for each level of the Inspirational Talent used by the speaker. These Overall Levels fade at the rate of one level every post-12.

A character who has using the Inspirational Talent may use it again during the same situation, but each successive use of the Talent imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the PRE check. (This also applies if the character failed a previous Inspiration attempt by failing their PRE check. They may try again, but at the listed penalty.) The most a character can Inspire others is the maximum level to which he's bought the Talent; repeated use of the Talent in the same situation cannot provide bonuses above this maximum, but instead will replace bonuses that have faded over time.

Example: Mr. Patriot has 3 levels of Inspirational. He uses it successfully to inspire his companions, granting them +3 Overall levels. Two Turns later, that bonus has dropped to +1; if Mr. Patriot uses his Talent again and succeeds (at a -2 penalty on his PRE check) he will grant them +3 Overall Levels again. Since the +1 they still have and the new +3 = +4, which is greater than the most Mr. Patriot can grant, those he re-inspires top out at +3 Overall Levels once more.

A character cannot Inspire himself.

Inspirational: 10 Character points for each +1 Overall Skill Level that may be granted to up to 8 listeners simultaneously.

-----

Base Power = 7 points: +1 Overall Skill Level; Fade: Loses one +1 per post-12 (-1/2)

Grant Base Power to Others: Usable By Other (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Up to 8 people at once (+3/4); Requires A PRE Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Incantations (-1/4) on 7 base points = 10 Real points.