Character: Bêlit

[Susano]

<iframe src="http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsbook/reh/belit.html" width="100%" height="800"></iframe>

[AlHazred]

A few math errors: your Powers, Skills, and Perks add up to 81. However, I think 128 50-point Followers is actually 45 points. That should bring her to a total of 150, perfect example for beginning Heroic characters.

I'd actually give her the Fearless Talent from Fantasy Hero, and call her Psychological Limitation "Overconfidence" as opposed to "Fearless". But that's salting to taste, really.

I might have more observations if I could find my notes on this character.

[Susano]

A few math errors: your Powers, Skills, and Perks add up to 81. However, I think 128 50-point Followers is actually 45 points. That should bring her to a total of 150, perfect example for beginning Heroic characters.

I'd actually give her the Fearless Talent from Fantasy Hero, and call her Psychological Limitation "Overconfidence" as opposed to "Fearless". But that's salting to taste, really.

I might have more observations if I could find my notes on this character.

I'll look into that. I missed the Fearless Talent and will look it over and will make the proper corrections to the points. Thanks for the input.

[nexus]

Nice write up! But this thread demands illustrations! :)

[Ki-rin]

She's too short. Conan is a reasonably big guy (6'4" to 6'6" in the books and comics) and Be'lit is clearly closer in height to him than a 5'5" woman would be. We're talking 5'10" to 6' of _woman_ with Amazon-like physical stats here.

She also has Amazon-like martial skills. Given how she got command of her first ship (1on1 HTH challenge of captain) and the stories, I'd boost her Dex to 18 and her Con to some extent as well and maybe even a SPD of 4 as well (Conan beat her in unarmed HTH because he overpowered her, not because he was faster or more skilled. Give Conan that 2hd pig sticker he's an expert with and almost no one in that world can match his skill. Unarmed, he's mediocre skill-wise, but he's god-awful strong, fast, and tough.). I'd also make her better at unarmed combat and +way+ better with a sword (cutlass in particular).

At also make her a very good tactician but a mediocre or even poor strategist.

This is one tough, opportunistic, and greedy woman. And that is both the secret of her success and the seed of her failure.

[Susano]

She's too short. Conan is a reasonably big guy (6'4" to 6'6" in the books and comics) and Be'lit is clearly closer in height to him than a 5'5" woman would be. We're talking 5'10" to 6' of _woman_ with Amazon-like physical stats here.


Uhm... what "Amazon-like physical stats"? Howard never gives her a height, only to say she looks up at/Conan looks down at her, when they first meet. And he never describes her fighting anyone.

She also has Amazon-like martial skills. Given how she got command of her first ship (1on1 HTH challenge of captain) and the stories,


Where is this from? A comic series? That's not my source material and not canon IMO.

I'd boost her Dex to 18 and her Con to some extent as well and maybe even a SPD of 4 as well (Conan beat her in unarmed HTH because he overpowered her, not because he was faster or more skilled. Give Conan that 2hd pig sticker he's an expert with and almost no one in that world can match his skill. Unarmed, he's mediocre skill-wise, but he's god-awful strong, fast, and tough.). I'd also make her better at unarmed combat and +way+ better with a sword (cutlass in particular).


Conan never beat her in any fight. They never fought. Were are you getting this from?


At also make her a very good tactician but a mediocre or even poor strategist.

This is one tough, opportunistic, and greedy woman. And that is both the secret of her success and the seed of her failure.

[Susano]

Nice write up! But this thread demands illustrations! :)

Couldn't find any.

[OddHat]

Nice write up. I could see her as a solid NPC, or the PC Patron of a group of adventurers.

[yamamura]

It has been aeon since I read that story back when I was playing GURPS, but from what I remember she looks good. Now I don't have the books anymore and I am only going on the GURPS book here but it says that she had a vow/revenge against slavers and if that is the case it might be a way to make up those last 9 points without calling them experience. As I have said though, it has been aeon since I read that book and I know supplement writers sometime take liberties.

G

(Yes I own GURPS Conan, you want to make something of it;))

[Susano]

It has been aeon since I read that story back when I was playing GURPS, but from what I remember she looks good. Now I don't have the books anymore and I am only going on the GURPS book here but it says that she had a vow/revenge against slavers and if that is the case it might be a way to make up those last 9 points without calling them experience. As I have said though, it has been aeon since I read that book and I know supplement writers sometime take liberties.

That has to be someone taking liberties. Bêlit never says anything about her past, other to say her forefathers were kings.

[Darkness]

(Yes I own GURPS Conan, you want to make something of it;)) Heh. IIRC, GURPS Conan was my first GURPS supplement.

[Susano]

Heh. IIRC, GURPS Conan was my first GURPS supplement.

I wish I'd picked it up way-back-when. Probably better than the d20 Conan sourcebook from Mongoose.

[Ki-rin]

Were are you getting this from?

The Robert E. Howard books and the Marvel Series of the 1970's and 1980's which filled in many of the unclear or undeveloped parts of the books. IIRC, the Marvel series was blessed by Howard and/or Howard's estate, making it just as "canon" as the books.

Be'lit was caucasian, had black hair, was tall for a woman (taller than some of her male crew) but shorter than Conan. Conan was always depicted as being taller than most men who were not freaks of nature.

Be'lit's pirate crew were depicted as being multi-racial but all male. Her first mate was a large (~Conan's size), bald, black guy who clearly worshipped the ground she walked on (so did the vast majority of her crew for that matter, many being slaves she had freed.). Conan meets her when Be'lit's superb tactics capture the ship he is on (I don't remember why Conan was on that ship.) During the battle part of the capture, Be'lit is shown as being very good with a cutlass (this gets shown a few more times in the Be'lit plot arc.)

Be'lit and Conan have one unarmed HTH that is clearly pre mating testing behavior before they become a couple. Other than being unarmed, she doesn't hold back much.
She's very fast, knows a few nasty HTH tricks, and Conan is clearly out-classed skill and speed-wise (but not Dex-wise, there they are close). But he's still Conan, and his larger size, outrageous (for a mortal) stats, and the fact that he's been fighting since he could walk, ultimately give him the victory.

She has a nasty temper, a bit of a jealous/possesive streak, and is greedy and opportunistic enough that she takes chances she knows are unwise for potential financial gain. This last leads to a series of unwise and strategically poor decisions that ultimately end up being the cause of her death.

...and yes, she comes back from the dead as a spirit once to save Conan's life.

[Susano]

I see. Well, I'm not interested in the Marvel Comics Conan. I am basing this adaption (and any other ones) directly on REH's writings. I am using the recent Del Rey releases, which contain the original published text, edited only for spelling errors. My Conan and Valeria (seen in Red Nails will be developed and written-up the same way.

Marvel may have felt the need to make Bêlit into a warrior-woman, but REH didn't present her that way. Her crew is stated to be island natives from the far south and all are tall, powerfully built black men. Bêlit herself is white-skinned, black-haired, and dark-eyed. Height is never given. She doesn't fight anyone (AFAWK) when the Tigress takes a prize. She doesn't fight Conan when they meet, she basically tells him he's going to be her lover and they will rule the seas together. If the Marvel story shows events otherwise, then they are basically going Hollywood on an already excellent story for no real reason.

[Ki-rin]

It's been 30+ years for me: remind me how Be'lit died in the books?

EDIT:
...as for "not being a warrior woman", this is a woman who ended up in charge of an all male, cyncial batch of warriors. Exactly how do you think they had enough respect for her to follow her lead and command? It sure wasn't that they thought her a religious figure. And repressed sexual attraction only gets a woman so far.

She had to have earned it by smarts and the proper application of force.

[Susano]

It's been 30+ years for me: remind me how Be'lit died in the books?

The winged ape hangs hangs by the neck from the yardarm of her ship.


EDIT:
...as for "not being a warrior woman", this is a woman who ended up in charge of an all male, cyncial batch of warriors. Exactly how do you think they had enough respect for her to follow her lead and command? It sure wasn't that they thought her a religious figure. An repressed sexual attraction only gets a woman so far.

She had to have earned it by smarts and the proper application of force.

Not according to REH. In the story Conan realizes her warriors see her as a goddess figure.

[Ki-rin]

The winged ape hangs her by the neck from the yardarm of her ship.
Bingo! That's the same as I recall in the official Marvel adaptation. And Marvel made a big deal out of the series being the "official" adaptation.


Not according to REH. In the story Conan realizes her warriors see her as a goddess figure.
More like priestess... ...of war and plunder. And a bloody hand-ons one at that (Tigress was just a bit self allusionary after all). IIRC, the major friction point that develops between Be'lit and Conan is that her bloodthirsty worship (of Odin by the time she dies IIRC) is a bit much for even our young barbarian.

Besides, can you really see Conan, particularly a young Conan, being attracted to or by an intellectual, non physically capable passionate/fierce woman? Sex toy, maybe. Companion who will "rule the seas together" with her? No way. She had to more like him than not for such a thing to work.

The lady had to be a warrior woman. Regadless of any other traits she definitely had.

Side Note:
I can't remember for sure, but wasn't it Be'lit that taught Conan to read?

[nexus]

Couldn't find any.

Oh well, probably wouldn't have been acceptable for the board if you did. :)

[Susano]

Oh well, probably wouldn't have been acceptable for the board if you did. :)

All I could really find were pics of that crappy McFarlane action figure.

[AlHazred]

EDIT:
...as for "not being a warrior woman", this is a woman who ended up in charge of an all male, cyncial batch of warriors. Exactly how do you think they had enough respect for her to follow her lead and command? It sure wasn't that they thought her a religious figure. An repressed sexual attraction only gets a woman so far.

She had to have earned it by smarts and the proper application of force.
Not according to REH. In the story Conan realizes her warriors see her as a goddess figure.

Yeah, in the first book, Bêlit is arguably the character with the highest PRE. Her crew worships her as a goddess given flesh. She wears no armor, only brief costly silks her crew seized from other ships. She is mentioned as having a slender dagger, but she never actually is seen fighting with it.

She originally captures Conan's ship because his ship (on which he is a hitchhiker) tries to run from her, and she outmaneuvers them; well, that and having her crew pepper them with arrows.

Other than the possible addition of Fearless, I'd say your writeup is spot-on for the "literary Bêlit." Now, if Ki-rin wants to write up the "comic book Bêlit," well, I'm certainly not going to complain about someone else doing the work... :whistle:

[Susano]

There is this:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=321107&postcount=1

[AlHazred]

All I could really find were pics of that crappy McFarlane action figure.
Well, this image (http://www.wanderingstarbooks.com/conan/cnpaint1.html) (WARNING! PARTIAL NUDITY!) is from the new edition. It adheres really closely to the story; I wish I owned a print of it, as I think it's very tastefully done.

There might be more worthwhile images in The Illustrated World of Robert E. Howard (http://www.wanderingstarbooks.com/iwreh.html), but I haven't seen it yet so I can't say.

[Ki-rin]

Hierax's is a Nice picture, and it indeed looks like the "traditional" 1970's version on Be'lit.

As to the character, the Str of 15 is too high (8-10), Dex of 23 is too high (15-18), and so is the SPD of 5 (3-4). The other stats could indeed be in the given range.

There's no evidence to support a Berserk Dis Ad, and I don't remember her being much of an archer. Certainly not as much as in the write up!

I'd also get rid of the Deus Ex Machina "Conan's Co-Star shall not die" stuff...

Other than that, I think Hierax's write up is reasonably on target. Including that 1.75m (5'9") is IMHO much closer to a reasonable height for her. 1.75m to 1.80m (5'9" to 5'11") seems dead on.

THIS is a woman who could make a bunch of hard bitten warriors believe her to be an Instrument of The Divine... ...and need a very special man for a lifemate ...and make even a Conan consider her as a lifemate.

Some short, diaphanous priestess/goddess impersonator without an imposing physical as well as emotional presence would never consider Conan as a lifemate, nor be considered as such by him.

Good looking and good in bed are things that Conan takes for granted out of the women he sleeps with. There has to be far more than that to hold his attention for any length of time.

[yamamura]

Link (http://home.broadpark.no/~vstromm/artwork.htm)

This site has a pic of Belit with Red Sonja and there is plenty of scantily clas females to fufill any Conan cover.

G

[yamamura]

Hierax's is a Nice picture, and it indeed looks like the "traditional" 1970's version on Be'lit.

As to the character, the Str of 15 is too high (8-10), Dex of 23 is too high (15-18), and so is the SPD of 5 (3-4). The other stats could indeed be in the given range.

There's no evidence to support a Berserk Dis Ad, and I don't remember her being much of an archer. Certainly not as much as in the write up!

I'd also get rid of the Deus Ex Machina "Conan's Co-Star shall not die" stuff...

Other than that, I think Hierax's write up is reasonably on target. Including that 1.75m (5'9") is IMHO much closer to a reasonable height for her. 1.75m to 1.80m (5'9" to 5'11") seems dead on.

THIS is a woman who could make a bunch of hard bitten warriors believe her to be an Instrument of The Divine... ...and need a very special man for a lifemate ...and make even a Conan consider her as a lifemate.

Some short, diaphanous priestess/goddess impersonator without an imposing physical as well as emotional presence would never consider Conan as a lifemate, nor be considered as such by him.

Good looking and good in bed are things that Conan takes for granted out of the women he sleeps with. There has to be far more than that to hold his attention for any length of time.

It seems to me that Heirax used the GURPS version of Belit in the creation of his.

G

[Susano]

Apparently you are dead-set on the Marvel version of Bêlit. Fine. Allow me to quote from the story Queen of the Black Coast to show my thoughts on the matter.

On Bêlit and why she is captain:

"[Conan] realized that to these men Bêlit was more than a woman: a goddess whose will was unquestioned."

On Bêlit's possible origins:

"...the mating-dance of Bêlit, whose fathers were kings of Askalon!"

On why Conan let's Bêlit take the lead:

"Conan agreed. He generally agreed to her plans. Hers was the mind that directed their raids, his the arm that carried out her ideas. It mattered little to him where they sailed or whom they fought, so long as they sailed and fought. He found the life good."

On the origins of her crew:

"...only eighty spearmen remained... But Bêlit would not take the time to make the long cruise southward to the island kingdoms where she recruited her buccaneers."

On Bêlit's fearlessness:

"I am not afraid either... I was never afraid. I have looked into the naked fangs of Death too often."

This is what I worked from. And I wasn't keen on embellishing the character any beyond what Howard wrote directly, or what I could infer from the story. I'm sorry, but he never wrote her as some form of warrior-maid -- that would be Valeria, who he specifically described as a swordsman of no small skill.

[Ki-rin]

Apparently you are dead-set on the Marvel version of Bêlit. Fine. Allow me to quote from the story Queen of the Black Coast to show my thoughts on the matter.

On Bêlit and why she is captain:

"[Conan] realized that to these men Bêlit was more than a woman: a goddess whose will was unquestioned."

On Bêlit's possible origins:

"...the mating-dance of Bêlit, whose fathers were kings of Askalon!"

On why Conan let's Bêlit take the lead:

"Conan agreed. He generally agreed to her plans. Hers was the mind that directed their raids, his the arm that carried out her ideas. It mattered little to him where they sailed or whom they fought, so long as they sailed and fought. He found the life good."

On the origins of her crew:

"...only eighty spearmen remained... But Bêlit would not take the time to make the long cruise southward to the island kingdoms where she recruited her buccaneers."

On Bêlit's fearlessness:

"I am not afraid either... I was never afraid. I have looked into the naked fangs of Death too often."

This is what I worked from. And I wasn't keen on embellishing the character any beyond what Howard wrote directly, or what I could infer from the story. I'm sorry, but he never wrote her as some form of warrior-maid --
I'm with you 100%. She's not a "warrior-maid" (Valeria is much better described this way). She's a <b>Leader</b>, a <b>Chief</b>. She is more akin to King Arthur vs. Valeria being more akin to Sir Gawain. Leaders of warriors must have decent, not necessarily outstanding but decent, warrior skills. Else how can they effectively plan and use warriors? History is replete with the disasters that take place when those that lead in battle do not have enough familarity with the skills of those that are led. For Be'lit to have led warriors and seamen at the tactical level she did, she had to have passable levels of skill in those areas in addition to other stuff.

What I think you're missing is that IMHO Marvel's interpetation of who Be'lit is from these passages is more on target than your original submission at the beginning of this thread.

IMHO, yours is a subset, rather than a contradiction (except for minor things like making her shorter than she should be... ...although I suppose that could be seen the same way ;) ), of Be'lit rather than correctly expressing her totality as well as Marvel did. As I said, I think a suitably tweaked version of Hierax's CS is probably the most accurate version of REH's Be'lit using HERO that I've seen so far.


-- that would be Valeria, who he specifically described as a swordsman of no small skill.
Far more than "no small skill". For someone as expert with a sword as Conan to be impressed (bearing in mind that he's probably 1 in a million skill-wise), Valeria had to be more than just "proficient." Conan sees and works with "proficient" all the time. Valeria had to be _expert_ with a sword to impress someone of Conan's sword skills.

Valeria is a far more one-dimensional character than Be'lit. Her sword-skill, courage, and beauty were basically her whole story.

OTOH, Be'lit was one of the most complex women Conan ever encountered in his life (may even be the most complex, but I think it's close.)

[AlHazred]

History is replete with the disasters that take place when those that lead in battle do not have enough familarity with the skills of those that are led.

One might argue that this is exactly what happened that caused her death, and that this indicates she's less of the tactical leader you make her out to be.

What I think you're missing is that IMHO Marvel's interpetation of who Be'lit is from these passages is more on target than your original submission at the beginning of this thread.

What I think you're missing is that Mike's working directly from the one story in which she appears; nothing more, nothing less. It's hard to see how working from the one canonical piece she showed up in makes his somehow "less on target."

Secondly, I have to object to your phrase "on target." I find it funny that you seem to find it difficult to accept a leader who is not familiar with fighting. Howard's writings have winged gorillas and ancient magical aliens with elephant heads and the power to shrink people. This certainly seems no more unlikely than those. And it's not like we have the "historical Bêlit" to compare it to.

OTOH, Be'lit was one of the most complex women Conan ever encountered in his life (may even be the most complex, but I think it's close.)

She showed up in one story. Not even a particularly long one. If she seems complex, it is more a tribute to Howard's skill with short-but-evocative prose than any surfeit of biographical information.

I'm not saying you couldn't make a case for the combat-competent Bêlit based on the Marvel Comics adaptation. Hell, I'd love to see it, as opposed to Heirax's composite, which combines the comics, Howard's stories, and de Camp's pastiches. But I'm saying that Mike's goal of statting out the Bêlit who shows up in Queen of the Black Coast is not going to be served by giving her abilities she is never seen to possess. Mike's always scrupulous about avoiding putting any personal interpretation into his character writeups if he can avoid it, and I've followed suit in those that I contributed to his site.

[yamamura]

I have to agree with Alhazred and unless we know a way to communicate with Mr. Howard, her 'true' height will remain a matter of conjecture. I will have to say this has caused me to want to get the book in which this story takes place and reread it. Also I have to admire Mike for taking what is in the story and staying true to it. The GURPS write up of this character imho, took excess baggage in an attempt to balance and flesh her out. Finally, if I had a problem with the height on Mike's version, I don't but if I did, I would just change it to what I believed it should be.

G

[Susano]

Watch this space for a slightly edited and corrected Bêlit.

In similar news, I am developing the winged Akaana from the Solomon Kane stories, and intend to see if I can create a Bran Mak Morn character sheet from the upcoming volume (due May 31 or so).

The third Conan book is due out in November of this year. Once I have that, I will work-up an accurate as possible Conan, Valeria, and a "dragon" (as seen in the story Red Nails). The latter is basically a stegosaurus with teeth, IIRC correctly.

Oh, and I dug out Vols 1-3 of John Carter of Mars.... :bounce:

[Susano]

Although the costume is all wrong (like that ever stopped a Conan artist before... :) ), this picture does represent what I figure Valeria would look like.

[Davies]

Just a quick note regarding Bêlit's origins: the story presented in Marvel Comics was an adaptation of Poul Anderson's pastiche novel Conan the Rebel.

I'm not an REH purist, but I do acknowledge that de Camp's pastiches of his work were markedly inferior to the originals -- but on the other hand, Anderson's novel was superior to de Camp's stories.

Chris Davies.

[Susano]

I have updated Bêlit's character sheet. Changes should become apparent around 6:30 PM EST 04-09-2005.

[Steve]

Oh, and I dug out Vols 1-3 of John Carter of Mars.... :bounce:

What? Not Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? :nonp:

[Susano]

What? Not Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? :nonp:

I, as of yet, don't own a complete run of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser novels. And they are damned hard to find! You want to send 'em to me, I'll write them up!

[AlHazred]

At best guess, Bêlit stands somewhere between 5'5" and 5'10". She is described as "supple and dangerous," as well as "lithe," "voluptuous," "slender," and "formed like a goddess" (hence her high COM score). Her hair is a rich black, her eyes dark, and her only garment is a silken girdle (one presumes this describes a form of loincloth as opposed to just a belt), which exposes her body to good effect (of course, if that is all she wears, then realistically she would go from being an ivory-skinned goddess to an bronze-skinned one fairly quickly...).

I believe you have two typos in the description. Just a few nits to pick.

[Susano]

Keeee-rap. And to think I proofed that several times. Actually, I see what needs to be fixed. Will be uploaded in a bit.

[Steve]

I, as of yet, don't own a complete run of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser novels. And they are damned hard to find! You want to send 'em to me, I'll write them up!

Try this webpage Bookfinder.com (http://www.bookfinder.com/)

There is a ton of Fritz Leiber's stuff out there. :)

[yamamura]

Well I have now reread the story and have to say Mike's creation is on target except for WF: Bow. In the section; The Attack from the Air it mentions Conan having in his hand the Shemite bow, such as Belit had taught her pirates to use. So I will say having WF: Bow is justified.

G

[Susano]

Well I have now reread the story and have to say Mike's creation is on target except for WF: Bow. In the section; The Attack from the Air it mentions Conan having in his hand the Shemite bow, such as Belit had taught her pirates to use. So I will say having WF: Bow is justified.

I missed that line the first time though! Thanks for spotting it. I've added the WF and will be loading the corrected character sheet later.

[yamamura]

Glad to be of service.

G