Powers with Negative Cost

[prestidigitator]

This came up when I was trying to convert a spell that is a very weak form of Telekinesis. Basically it can be used to lift and move very small items, but would be completely useless as any form of attack. The amount of Strength I wanted the TK to have turned out to be about -10. So how do you build such a Power, and how can you justify making it with a -10 Str instead of a 0 Str? (And yes: I did consider buying it as Flight that is Usable as Attack, but why do this just to make it cost more points, when TK is clearly the Power that is meant to be used for this kind of thing? Anyway, just pretend a weak TK is the correct answer for this thread).

The justification in my case, I think, is just that it fits the concept of the spell, and new spells are not easy to come by in the setting.

When considering the system, obviously Powers should cost at least 1 Character Point. However, I also realized that there might be legitimate things to do with a Power that is so weak. For example, what if you were to take the literal cost such a Power would cost (-15 CP for a -10 Str TK), apply any Advantages as if they were Limitations (moving the negative cost closer to zero) and any Limitations as if they were Advantages (moving the negative cost toward negative infinity). Then take any Adders, apply the Advantages and Limitations in the usual manner, add them to the "cost" of the base Power, and then cap it at a minimum cost of 1 Real Point (or whatever your Minimum Cost is for the campaign).

For example, let's say my TK has Fine Manipulation, No Range Modifier, has Area of Effect: 2 hexes, and requires Concentration: 0 DCV throughout its use. This could be constructed like:

TK: -10 Str;

[Base Points = -15]

No Range Modifier (+1/2);
Area of Effect: 1 hex x2 = 2 hexes (+3/4);
Concentrate: 0 DCV, throughout use (-1);

[Real Points = (-15)(1 + 1)/(1 + 1/2 + 3/4) = -13]

+ Fine Manipulation

[Base Points = 10]

No Range Modifier (+1/2);
Area of Effect: 1 hex x2 = 2 hexes (+3/4);
Concentrate: 0 DCV, throughout use (-1);

[Real Points = 10(1 + 1/2 + 3/4)/(1 + 1) = 11]

[Total Cost = -13 + 11 = -2, capped at a minumum of 1 CP]
This allows "weak" Powers that have some Modifiers and can be somewhat useful, and it actually could make the Modifiers mean something. For example, if the Concentrate Limitation were taken off the above, it would turn into:

TK: -10 Str;

[Base Points = -15]

No Range Modifier (+1/2);
Area of Effect: 1 hex x2 = 2 hexes (+3/4);

[Real Points = (-15)/(1 + 1/2 + 3/4) = -7]

+ Fine Manipulation

[Base Points = 10]

No Range Modifier (+1/2);
Area of Effect: 1 hex x2 = 2 hexes (+3/4);

[Real Points = 10(1 + 1/2 + 3/4) = 22]

[Total Cost = -7 + 22 = 15]
There may be a few other Powers to which this kind of thing could be done (an Entangle that is laughably easy to break, but can be used to create some limited-use surfaces, or trap insects, perhaps?).

What do you think?

[prestidigitator]

Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps the initial negative cost of the Power should be relative to the minimum cost of a Power (1 CP, or whatever your campaign minimum is). That would mean that Advantages and Limitations would also mean something--although admittedly very little--for a Power with a base cost of zero.

[Fox1]

Way over thought IMO.

Just buy the lowest TK level allowed in the game together with whatever advantages you want and toss a limit on it: Only provides an effective STR value of X.

The actual limit value could be determined by how far negative of a STR value you want.

Done.

[Dust Raven]

Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps the initial negative cost of the Power should be relative to the minimum cost of a Power (1 CP, or whatever your campaign minimum is). That would mean that Advantages and Limitations would also mean something--although admittedly very little--for a Power with a base cost of zero.

Yeah, the minimum cost of any Power is 1 CP. I think that applies to both the base cost and the final real cost. So for a TK -10 STR, it would have a base cost of 1 CP, modified by any Advantages or Limitations you put on it. Since the base cost is the same for 0 STR TK, you could easily put an additional Limitation to signifiy it actually has a lower value (since it lifts about a quarter of the mass, I'd say a -3/4).

[prestidigitator]

Yeah, the minimum cost of any Power is 1 CP. I think that applies to both the base cost and the final real cost. So for a TK -10 STR, it would have a base cost of 1 CP, modified by any Advantages or Limitations you put on it. Since the base cost is the same for 0 STR TK, you could easily put an additional Limitation to signifiy it actually has a lower value (since it lifts about a quarter of the mass, I'd say a -3/4).
Hmm. What I actually mean in my second post is that maybe the base value should have the minimum cost subtracted from it. It wouldn't mean much in the case of the example I gave--a -16 base cost instead of a -15 base cost--but it would mean that you could still effectively place Advantages and Limiations on something that has a starting value of zero because it's effective base cost would be 0-1=-1.

I guess the whole reason I was thinking of doing it this way is that it basically allows you to include Adders and still come up with a very low-cost Power, provided that Power is still unlikely to be at all powerful. For example, if you bought the -10 Str TK for -15 points and applied the +10 point Fine Manipulation Adder, it would still come up costing 1 point instead of 1+10=11 points. This makes sense, because although you might be able to create pebble artwork and push a few buttons, you are never, ever going to be able to do anything with it that will do direct damage or even grab anything useful (anyone's casual strength will beat you automatically).

[Sean Waters]

For very minor powers, like this, just cost them at 1 CP. Ignore the negative maths and, by and large I wouldn't bother applying advantages and limitations to the 1CP, I'd just leave it at that unless the power was clealy abusive.

I've mentioned the negative STR TK before (I think it is the only power that has the 'negative problem'). In some campaigns the ability to move an object with 1 STR is worth an awful lot more than 1 point: not in superhero games, maybe, but 0 STR is 25gk, which is a lot....in a modern or even fantasy campaign this could be grossly abusive: you can do a lot of damage dropping a 25 kg rock on someone...I'd make them buy a higher STR and apply a limitation that no single object over 25kg (or whatever) could be lifted.

BTW you need an advantage other than 'no range modifiers': the range of TK is based on the active points, and if they are negative (or 1CP) the range is going to be tiny. No range modifiers just allows you to work without penalty at maximum range - which will be negligible anyway. I'd be inclined to make it PSYCHOKINESIS, then you can have LOS range.

[prestidigitator]

For very minor powers, like this, just cost them at 1 CP. Ignore the negative maths and, by and large I wouldn't bother applying advantages and limitations to the 1CP, I'd just leave it at that unless the power was clealy abusive.
Well, the Advantages and Limitations are really necessary to define the affect of the spell. I was just going to make it cost 1 CP, but it got me to thinking about the ability to modify the Power with Adders, and whether an Adder on a really weak Power should cost its normal amount. I suppose I was spending too much energy on it, though. That's me. :)


I've mentioned the negative STR TK before (I think it is the only power that has the 'negative problem'). In some campaigns the ability to move an object with 1 STR is worth an awful lot more than 1 point: not in superhero games, maybe, but 0 STR is 25gk, which is a lot....in a modern or even fantasy campaign this could be grossly abusive: you can do a lot of damage dropping a 25 kg rock on someone...I'd make them buy a higher STR and apply a limitation that no single object over 25kg (or whatever) could be lifted.
Yeah. This was a sticking point for me, too. I guess it is best solved with a Minimum Cost for TK in the campaign, but like I said above I start to get a little squirrelly when I try to justify why it is a -10 Str instead of a -5 Str or a 0 Str, since they all cost the same. Part of the reason I was putting so much thought into it. Oh well.


BTW you need an advantage other than 'no range modifiers': the range of TK is based on the active points, and if they are negative (or 1CP) the range is going to be tiny. No range modifiers just allows you to work without penalty at maximum range - which will be negligible anyway. I'd be inclined to make it PSYCHOKINESIS, then you can have LOS range.
LOL. Good point! I hadn't even thought about the max range. The example I gave was mostly supposed to illustrate what I thought about applying Adders and Modifiers to low-cost or no-cost Powers, but that is a valid point about the original Power as well (although it was actually a bit different; the one I showed above was just better for illustrating the idea the original Power sparked). Thanks.