Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

FenrisUlf

Apr 6th, '05, 02:41 PM

Got a question here. Just saw the recent _Batman's Guide to Crimefighting_, which I think is a fun book (as well as a very helpful one), and it listed the 'ten must-know martial arts for crimefighters'. I'm curious to see if you folks agree or not with the author, and if so, why.

They are:

1) Aikido -- presumably for the flexibility of the art.

2) Boxing -- because the 'sweet science' is as useful on the streets as inside the ring. I had an uncle who could swear to that.

3) Capoeira -- if you ever get your hands tied, you'll be glad you know it. And the emphasis on dodging and acrobatic training isn't bad either.

4) Hapkido -- hard/soft Korean style devised for fighting, not sport or show, by a man who was a lifelong fighter himself. Versatile and well-rounded.

5&6) Judo and Jujutsu -- Aren't they the same thing? I'm guessing listed for the grappling skill they teach, as well as the knowledge of weak points and the like.

7) Karate -- Nice, straightforward fighting art for putting that guy down fast.

8) Krav Maga -- the IDF martial art. I can really see this one as useful; it was devised for combat and nothing else, has maneuvers specifically for disarming gun or knife toting opponents, and has been used in close combat recently (like last week, probably).

9) Kung Fu -- No substyles listed, though I'm thinking that Chin Na and Hung Gar (the former a system of grappling, the latter devised by and for streetfighters) would be the best.

10) Savate -- The training is tougher than a lot of other martial arts (you wear padded armor and take full-strength strikes), and the feet have more striking power than the hands.

So, any commentary from you hoplologists out there? If 'used in actual combat' is a particular criteria, then I'd add Escrima, Kuntao, and Pentjak Silat to the above.

Arkham

Apr 6th, '05, 02:54 PM

Lucha Libre. Nothing else comes close...

fbdaury

Apr 6th, '05, 02:57 PM

An Ch'i- because what superhero doesn't want to be able to beat people with any object they can get their hands on?

Blue

Apr 6th, '05, 03:00 PM

Not sure I have an opinion, not having done any Martial Arts in real life. But I'd consider Tae Kwon Do an iconic Martial Art (For the high spinning kicks)

Dauntless

Apr 6th, '05, 04:48 PM

1) Aikido -- presumably for the flexibility of the art.

Not sure if Aikido would belong here or not in the superhero sense. Aikido is as much a way of life as anything else. Aikido is an amazing and beautiful art, and one that requires scores of years of practice to truly understand. One time, Morihei Ueshiba saw some advanced students trying to execute a technique and they were quibbling over how to properly do the technique, at which point O-sensei said, "I'm not training you to move your body, I'm training you to move your mind!". Aikido is at its core entirely non-violent (some offshoots notwithstanding). When I say non-violent, it is within the mindset of an Aikidoka that he must not harm or even have intention of harming anyone. If one is not mindful of this, one is not truly practicing Aikido and is really just doing the outer form of aikijiujitsu (the ancient styles which samurai learned, and from which Morihei Ueshiba learned to derive Takemusubi Aikido)

However, outside of Japan (and even within Japan unless you visit authentic bujutsu ryu), you probably won't find more authentic feudal era swordsmanship (Iaido concentrates on cutting rather than duelling, and kendo has become sportified), albeit only with a bokken instead of a live shinken.

5&6) Judo and Jujutsu -- Aren't they the same thing? I'm guessing listed for the grappling skill they teach, as well as the knowledge of weak points and the like.
Not quite the same thing. Jigoro Kano took some of the ancient aikijujitsu techniques from the samurai and made them a bit safer (for example, some of the throws in Judo were, in their aikijiujitsu counterpart, intended to break joints). It also for the most part took out any atemi (striking techniques) that jiujitsu had.

So it sounds like Judo is a watered-down jiujitsu? Not really. It just has a different concentration. The key is in looking at the difference between -do arts, versus -justu arts. The 'do' is literally 'the way', and 'jutsu' is 'art of' or 'technique of'. Do is a way of life and its intended to be taken outside of the dojo. In a sense, it's more spiritual. That's not to say that jutsu forms can't be spiritual, but rather, the individual himself must discern the key principles himself.

9) Kung Fu -- No substyles listed, though I'm thinking that Chin Na and Hung Gar (the former a system of grappling, the latter devised by and for streetfighters) would be the best.
Chin Na is in and of itself not a martial style, but rather a class of techniques. Classical Chinese arts have three categories of techniques: kicking/punching, chin na (grasping/seizing), shuai jiao (wrestling/throwing). All wuyi (kung fu means 'hard work', wushu means martial art, wuyi means war art) will have elements of all three categories in them. For a style that concentrates on Chin Na, I'd suggest either Eagle Claw (which also has a lot of aerial acrobatics) or Tai Chi Chuan.

Hung Gar was made famous by one of the Ten Tigers of Canton...of which western audiences may be aware of from Jet Li's movies, "Once Upon a Time in China" series. Despite the famous "no shadow" kick, Hung Gar is a southern style and concentrates mostly on hand techniques (as the old saying goes; "Southern fist, northern leg"). It's an all around good art, as is Choy Lay Fut, both of which are relatively more recent arts.

As Bruce Lee once pointed out, ultimately, you have to forget the style to master the style. As he put it, if you concentrate on the techniques too much, then you see only the flowery branches and not the root itself. All martial arts ultimately share a common root, but you have to get past the idea of technique itself. Ironically, you have to master a technique in order to forget the technique. Once you've done that, you've made it a part of yourself.

As Bruce was a genius in trying to show us, we have something to learn from all arts, because ultimately, all arts share this same root.

OddHat

Apr 6th, '05, 05:25 PM

In Champions? Anything with Sacrifice Lunge or Charge and Flying Dodge.

In Comics? Anything the writer likes.

In the real world? Buy a gun.

AlHazred

Apr 6th, '05, 05:29 PM

In the real world? Buy a gun.

Scratch that. Buy a judge. Or a cop.

Supreme Serpent

Apr 6th, '05, 06:06 PM

Jeet Kun Do

Shinanju

Ninjitsu

Koshka

Apr 6th, '05, 08:00 PM

Just saw the recent _Batman's Guide to Crimefighting_, which I think is a fun book (as well as a very helpful one), and it listed the 'ten must-know martial arts for crimefighters'.

Stupid question incoming: is this a comic, or a RPG supplement, or something else? It sounds interesting, I just want to know where to look :) .

Log-Man

Apr 6th, '05, 08:08 PM

I'm not so sure that Capoeira belongs on the list. I can't really say why, it just doesn't feel right. I think Muay Thai kickboxing would be better up there personally.

lemming

Apr 6th, '05, 08:26 PM

I'm not so sure that Capoeira belongs on the list. I can't really say why, it just doesn't feel right. I think Muay Thai kickboxing would be better up there personally.
Not sure how many you really need. You get your hard & soft styles in, there's no need to add much more. Muay Thai, several forms of Karate, Krav Maga, and Savate have a similar driving force behind them.
It's really the mental game that makes the difference I think.

Log-Man

Apr 6th, '05, 08:28 PM

Not sure how many you really need. You get your hard & soft styles in, there's no need to add much more. Muay Thai, several forms of Karate, Krav Maga, and Savate have a similar driving force behind them.
It's really the mental game that makes the difference I think.
I can agree with that. When I first read the list I thought ten was too many, but it's food for discussion. For me, boxing is always at the top of the list. A couple of my characters use it.

fbdaury

Apr 6th, '05, 08:58 PM

Log-Man

Apr 6th, '05, 09:07 PM

On a slightly off-topic rail, my character in Corven's New LA game uses a fusion of Savate and Tae Kwon Do, to maximize the striking potential of his super-strong legs. His top attack? A 16d6 Offensive kick attack. I like him. :rolleyes:
I had a character like that, my only pure martial artist. He specialized in all of the kicking arts, as well as soccer and irish dancing :D

Ki-rin

Apr 6th, '05, 09:32 PM

Good list. Gracie Jujitsu should be added to it.

I agree with Dauntless' regarding Aikido on every point except one: I think it is very appropriate for a supers campaign. The MA in a supers campaign is constantly going to be dealing with overwhelmingly more powerful foes, and this is exactly Aikido's strong suit combat-wise.

Kristopher

Apr 6th, '05, 10:39 PM

Scratch that. Buy a judge. Or a cop.

Neither of whom can do a damn thing for you at 3:17 AM when the glass on your back door shatters, and the noise hopefully wakes you up...

freakboy6117

Apr 7th, '05, 04:07 AM

the problem with gracie jujitsu is it doesnt appear super heroic (rolling on the floor with your arms and legs wraped around the arm of another guy in skin tight gimp suits just doesn't look terribly heroic).
It was used to great effect in an issue of stormwatch team achilles to beat the snot out of the midnighter but that issue really showed how strange the style looks in a comic.
compared to the more acrobatic styles popular in say batman it just looks a biit odd.

one style that hasn't been mentioned is wing chun. this is the style bruce lee started with and was originally designed by a chinese nun to protect her self.

it is designed to be used against much stronger opponants so is an excellent choice for martial artists in a super world.

Chimpira

Apr 7th, '05, 05:37 AM

I have been a Krav Maga fan since way back. I try to give it to my characters that are not looking for something flashy. If I have an butt kicker in mind, that is not a 'traditional' martial artist, usually I give him Krav Maga.

Iuz the Evil

Apr 7th, '05, 07:43 AM

AliceTheOwl

Apr 7th, '05, 08:01 AM

Since you asked, the difference between judo and jujitsu is the lethality.

Originally, all martial arts in Japan were taught to be lethal. Then along came a big wave of political change, and people found the need to still learn martial arts without knowing how to kill anyone. So if it ends in -jitsu, it's supposed to be deadly. If it ends in -do, it's supposed to be the 'softer' form.

This only applies to Japanese martial arts.

NeoSamurai

Apr 7th, '05, 08:22 AM

What? No Escrima? :(

Kirby

Apr 7th, '05, 09:45 AM

I'd like to add my two cents on two of the arts talked about:

1) Capoeria - not only is it beautiful to watch, but it can be very deadly and quickly efficient; unlike most other martial arts, if the opponent isn't aware of it, the opponent will probably be at a loss on how to counter since it is so 'unconventional' compared to other martial arts. This is one of the few arts I've seen where the practitioners can practice at full speed and the experts can practice within inches of each other. However, a great drawback of it is that it requires room (which wasn't a problem in the fields in Brazil).

2) Ninjutsu - There haven't been many films I've seen that do this martial art true justice, but it is amazing to know the training that goes into it. When I was younger, in high school, my brother had these friends who were Japanese. Their father would teach them ninjutsu (though you weren't allowed to say the word 'ninja' around their father) a and sometimes they would practice with my brother (we took Praying Mantis Style Kung Fu and he was the equivalent of at least a 1st degree black belt). They had these practice nun chuks that had holes in them to place studs or small spikes. My brother would hold one end and swing them (yes, properly) at the Japanese friends and they would snatch them from him.

The other training they let him in on was wall crawling. They had to lie on their stomachs and then crawl across the room, with only their hands and feet touching the carpet, to simulate scaling a wall. They were supposed to practice this ten times a day in the room. Suffice it to say, I was never able to crawl across my room once like that.

fbdaury

Apr 7th, '05, 11:55 AM

Shorinjii Kempo should be on that list. Looks sweet, and frickin' brutal... as... hell. I agree with the majority of the ones listed, but there does seem to be a little bit of overlap on styles. Still, if you had black belts (or equivalent) in ten different styles of martial art, I don't see a lot of people arguing the point.

Yeah, that'd be a pretty convincing position to take... "Well, I think Capoeria will provide for greater acrobatic stylings and..." <SMACK! THUD!>

Heh heh heh... :snicker:

Having studued Shorinji Kempo while in Japan, I ma a big proponent of it's usefulness. I just wish I had been able to study it longer. It combined soft and hard, striking and atemi into one package that was geared for practical use above sport use.

FenrisUlf

Apr 7th, '05, 12:03 PM

Stupid question incoming: is this a comic, or a RPG supplement, or something else? It sounds interesting, I just want to know where to look :) .

It's a regular book, but I saw it selling in the comics section of my local Waldenbooks. Goes for $15.95 if you're interested.

I should add, I've also seen _Batman's Guide to Forensics_, which I thought was pretty good for those who want more on the science and equipment used to hunt criminals. Also has a good short fiction piece on Batman's hunt for Mister Zsasz, the knife-wielding psycho.

PS -- To Dauntless: Most of what I *know* about martial arts comes from the UMA by Hero Games, as well as a few books I've read on Western Martial Arts. So if I sounded like a total moron on the subject -- it's because I am one.

Thanks for a very well-done piece there on real-world martial arts.

sbarron

Apr 7th, '05, 12:42 PM

I agree that we need to define what it is we are talking about here.

For movies, TV, and most RPGs, flying kicks and acrobatic jumps are awesome. But in a real life fight these techniques are incredibly, incredibly dangerous. I think the same thing is true for most ground based marital arts. The real world realities of weapons, multiple opponents, and no rules makes a ground focused competition MA very dangerous.

Not that these arts and skills can't be valuable. They just shouldn't be focused on the the exclusion of other fighting skills. Because sometimes you'll fight 3 guys with bats, sometimes you'll fight in a phone booth, and sometimes you'll get tackled from behind. Combat is too unpredictlable to rely on any one "style" or "art." IMHO anyway.

Susano

Apr 7th, '05, 12:56 PM

Which one lets you do those landscape-wrecking ch'i blasts.

Log-Man

Apr 7th, '05, 01:06 PM

Which one lets you do those landscape-wrecking ch'i blasts.
Nin ten do

Dauntless

Apr 7th, '05, 03:52 PM

Rather than list what styles I think are important, I'll list what qualities I think are most important. They're listed in no particular importance:

1) Timing
The Japanese would call this Ma-ai (space time). Some Japanese masters went so far as to say that if you mastered this, you couldn't be hit no matter how quick your opponent. Bruce Lee said that all dancers can become martial artists because they have a sense of timing, but not all martial artists can be dancers (because not all of them do). As an aside, Bruce was a former Cha-cha champion in Hong Kong, David Carradine got his role in Kung Fu because he was a dancer, as did Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi.

2) Sensitivity/Harmony
Chinese call this Ting Jing ('listening energy'), and the Japanese might call it Musubi. Sensitivity is the ability to "feel" what your opponent is going to do. It can be based on sight...by observing your opponents stance, foot position, muscle tension, where his eyes are looking, his breathing, etc, or it can be based on touch (chi sao helps develop this skill as do many aikido drills). It can even be quasi-mystical (in aikido, the idea ultimately is to receive your opponent's intention, his "will to attack", and it is the intention itself as opposed to the physical attack which is intercepted and redirected).

3) Pain Tolerance
This is where western arts excel. In eastern styles, it is often taught to avoid blows at all costs. The rationale for this tactic is that either a) attacks are so powerful that one hit can kill, or b) to get you used to the idea that if your opponent has a weapon, you better get used to not getting hit at all. Western arts on the hand train the pugilist's pain tolerance. This is IMHO a good thing since you never know when you're going to get hit.

4) No Mind
The classic mushin of Japanese combat theory. Soho Takuan, the famous Buddhist monk who was friends with Japan's two greatest swordsmen ever, Miyamoto Musashi and Yagyu Munenori) often said that "the mind should be nowhere in particular". The mind should never be fixated on anything. It shouldn't be thinking about the opponent's move, or how to counter respond. It shouldn't be thinking of victory or defeat. Nor should it be concentrating on anything. It simply must be left alone and not allowed to abide on anything.

5) No Emotion
The corollary to No Mind is No Emotion. One should not be fearful or angry, vengeful or egotistic. The Chinese believe in two minds, Hsin, the emotional mind, and Yi, the Wisdom mind. They believe that Yi must always dominate Hsin and keep it under control. The samurai also had an old maxim, "Control your emotions, or they will control you".

6) Calmness
Going hand in hand with the above two is being calm, or without tension. Only when you are relaxed will you perform at your peak power and speed. Muscle tension slows you down and also makes getting hit worse. The only time you want to tense up is when you brace your body at the point of impact.

7) Endurance
This is the great equalizer. If your opponent is better than you are, but you have the better endurance, just wear him out. If you have good Timing as above, then this should be easy. However if you lack good timing, and your opponent is good at it, he'll be able to get in his licks before he tires out.

8) Minimalism
Don't be flashy and use up energy. Why throw a high kick to kick someone in the head if it's not necessary (many jumping kicks were originally designed to unhorse a rider)? While Eight Pieces Brocade (a Chinese euphemism for all flash and no substance) may be good for a PRE attack, all it's going to do is wear you out. Economy of motion is the key, and much of Bruce Lee's combat training (Jeet Kune Do) was about this.

9) Diversity
Know kicks, punches, grappling, joint locks, holds, submission work, weapon work and everything else that you can. The more tools in your arsenal, the better your chance of finding the tool that fits. Plus, what're you going to do if you only know TKD, and a guy does a shoot for your legs, takes you down, and puts you in an ankle lock? If you don't know how to escape, you're screwed.

10) Awareness
Not sensitivity, but a situational awareness. Fights in real life aren't arena duels. They happen in bars where your adversaries buddies might gang up on you, or in the battlefield where the enemy could be anywhere. Going hand in hand with No Mind, you shouldn't focus your attention solely on your opponent. Use the terrain to your advantage.

11) Internal is External, External is Internal
This is the realization that the internal powers the external, and the external realizes the internal. In other words, all things start with an internal intention. From this, an external event is generated. External force without internal foundation will be brittle, and internal strength without a strong framework is futile.

OddHat

Apr 7th, '05, 04:36 PM

No particular criticism of any specific post, but...

I lift weights for hobby reasons (not that I look like it). I used to study various martial arts on and off, as a hobby. I've worked in urban high crime areas in the USA and overseas, and I've lived or worked in cities all my life. I've been chased by an angry gang, caught in two riots, and threatened by thugs. Not once in my adut life have I actually needed to fight beyond knocking someone down and walking quickly away. When guys over 25 start talking about their street smart brawling skills, I tend to wonder if maybe they're watching too many action movies...

My suggestion to anyone who wants to study, is to study what you want. It's all fun. If you want to defend yourself, take a self defense class for the very basic stuff that actually comes in handy, stay fit, and maybe buy a gun.

For a Champions campaign, pick Charge or Sacrifice Lunge and Flying Dodge, and buy your movement with Combat Accelleration.

Iuz the Evil

Apr 7th, '05, 05:21 PM

No particular criticism of any specific post, but...

I lift weights for hobby reasons (not that I look like it). I used to study various martial arts on and off, as a hobby. I've worked in urban high crime areas in the USA and overseas, and I've lived or worked in cities all my life. I've been chased by an angry gang, caught in two riots, and threatened by thugs. Not once in my adut life have I actually needed to fight beyond knocking someone down and walking quickly away. When guys over 25 start talking about their street smart brawling skills, I tend to wonder if maybe they're watching too many action movies...

Damn...
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OddHat again.

You're hilarious man, I consistently enjoy reading your posts. Not that what you stated isn't 100% accurate, it's just the delivery is such a fine example of witty humor it often makes me laugh out loud.

Dauntless

Apr 7th, '05, 05:49 PM

I lift weights for hobby reasons (not that I look like it). I used to study various martial arts on and off, as a hobby. I've worked in urban high crime areas in the USA and overseas, and I've lived or worked in cities all my life. I've been chased by an angry gang, caught in two riots, and threatened by thugs. Not once in my adut life have I actually needed to fight beyond knocking someone down and walking quickly away. When guys over 25 start talking about their street smart brawling skills, I tend to wonder if maybe they're watching too many action movies...

That's why I think the most important qualities are really mental aspects rather than physical ones. I've only been in two real fights myself (though definitely not of the life-or-death kind), not including breaking up a couple more involving some drunken friends, but from those two encounters (as well as my on and off training in various martial arts) I really feel that the mental components are vitally important.

I'm 6', 192, and work out with weights too and can still do full front and side splits (I can easily kick someone my height in the head with a side kick or hook kick). But I often get my ass handed to me by smaller guys who're quicker, or older guys (even though somewhat of an old fart at 33 myself) who bide their time and are more patient. In the end, physical prowess isn't as important as proper mental attitude IMHO.

My suggestion to anyone who wants to study, is to study what you want. It's all fun. If you want to defend yourself, take a self defense class for the very basic stuff that actually comes in handy, stay fit, and maybe buy a gun.

Definitely study whatever you think suits you. As Bruce said, you have to find what works for you, and throw out what doesn't work for you. As I said earlier, all arts have the same root.

Though I'm not sure about the fun part. Yagyu Muneonori whom I mentioned earlier had no real life experience until one battle, and during that first battle he killed over ten people (Munenori was involved in more actual battles than Musashi, whereas Musashi was mostly a duellist...though Musashi did fight in some battles, such as the Shimabarra revolt). He was able to do this because he treated every training session with the utmost intensity (and it doesn't hurt that his father was the one person whom Musashi actually turned down a duel from). So when people say that if you've never fought before you don't know how to fight, I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement. In fact, in Europe, the nobles who were very well trained were usually better fighters than the common foot soldier who had more real world practical experience. I think that if you do want to train for self-defense, you have to take it very seriously. If you only do it half-heartedly or for fun, then realize that its benefits will only be for health.

That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I believe the real training is all psychological and mental. That's why I think you have to a serious frame of mind to learn self-defense.

tm80401

Apr 8th, '05, 09:56 AM

Going back to the initial list, Boxing is probably a must have for a 'Batmanesque' street vigilante.

I remember reading an article, I think in Newsweek or some other kind of news mag, talking about the martial arts. The writer was actually at the ShaoLin monastery in China and noticed one of the monks shadowboxing. When the writer asked the monk about it, he was told that boxing was the art that would get someone to the point of being able to defend themselves the most rapidly. I figure that any street fighter, going into the profession deliberately, would learn boxing because it would be the most rapidly useful.

SuperPheemy

Apr 8th, '05, 10:32 AM

Sinanju. There is no substitute.

ThothAmon

Apr 8th, '05, 03:23 PM

Intriguing list. However, if you can master any 10 systemized arts it doesn't really matter what they are you'll still be death on legs. Take a close look at Steven Segal on screen - although a possibly controversial example and a fat git to boot he has a number of different arts in his repertoire and it shows - flexibility and focus combined to make a real badass.

I've had training in traditional Goju karate, shorinji kempo, Muay Thai, judo and military unarmed combat. Despite this I'd suggest that mental approach is more important than any specific style. As a famous warrior once quoted "Train hard, fight easy".

OddHat's comments also find resonance with me - my record has never been better than 50/50 and I have the scars to back up my experiences - there's always someone faster, stronger, younger, luckier, with more buddies, less drunk or better armed. If I can walk away from a confrontation then I will do so as the real winners are those who don't have to fight. Sun Tzu and Musashi Miyamoto have left wisdom in this area for us to grasp :tsk:

Most people do not have the time and dedication required to become truly skilled whereas supers have it easy. In the Western world we are mesmerized by the idea of a gaining a black belt. In actuality the belt system is a trick invented to keep Westerners interested. The real meaning of a black belt for traditonal Japanese practitioners is when your white belt turns black because you never wash it during all the time you train - typically 10 years of hard training two to three times a week. If you can do that in any one style then you should be confident, never mind multiple styles.

I'd also venture to suggest that the single most useful real-world 'street' style is actually jujitsu or it's allegedly gentler cousin judo. Most formalized martial arts are useless once you are on the ground - these two are not. A strong super trained in these forms would be formidable indeed. Boxing is also worthy of consideration as (A) it concentrates on a small number of techniques (B) you actually fight when practicing and (C) footwork and conditioning are a significant part of the mix.

Finally I'd like to echo those who have suggested Sinanju - it is indeed the One True Art :smoke:

Starwolf

Apr 8th, '05, 03:40 PM

Scratch that. Buy a judge. Or a cop.

I whip out my trusty six shooter!

You whip out your trusty Judge AND a trusty Cop!

I double tap both of them and then you...dang now my trusty six shooter is empty...time to reload :bmk:

Cerebro

Apr 8th, '05, 03:43 PM

Cerebro

Apr 8th, '05, 03:47 PM

Do means "way".

OddHat

Apr 8th, '05, 03:48 PM

Definitely study whatever you think suits you. As Bruce said, you have to find what works for you, and throw out what doesn't work for you. As I said earlier, all arts have the same root.

Though I'm not sure about the fun part...That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I believe the real training is all psychological and mental. That's why I think you have to a serious frame of mind to learn self-defense.

I'm sure about the fun part. Enjoying your hobby, having fun, does not preclude taking your hobby seriously. I take my training reasonably seriously and I have a lot of fun with it. :)

I would also point out that the most useful self defense techniques involve learning how to recognize and avoid trouble. Breaking up the fights your drunk friends are having is a useful skill, but from a self defense point of view it's not as useful as avoiding the company of violent drunks. ;)

Good luck with your training,

-Bob

Starwolf

Apr 8th, '05, 03:48 PM

I have studied in several schools, including Tang Soo Doo, Tae Kwon Do, and Bujinkan (a form of what most Americans call ninjustu). Of them all only bujinkan had no "competition" style as it was intended and trained for full out life and death combat. IMO it is not proper to call this type of pratice a martial "art" as its only real use is combat, not philosophy, exhibition, ot competition.

Cerebro

Apr 8th, '05, 03:48 PM

Fantasy!.

Susano

Apr 8th, '05, 04:07 PM

I spent around 14 years learning how to swing a sword in the SCA, does that count for anything?

Log-Man

Apr 8th, '05, 04:13 PM

Now, since this is Comics, i will go with Kun Fu and Pro-Wrestling. Nothing can beat a rock botton!! if you smell what the Rock is cooking!!.
Oh hell yeah! What I wouldn't give to see some supers bust out some real moves. Imagine Colossus and the tombstone piledriver, Spidey using a frankensteiner, or Superman giving a backbreaker. Supposedly Ben Grimm is trained as a grappler, but you never see him use it.

OddHat

Apr 8th, '05, 04:13 PM

I spent around 14 years learning how to swing a sword in the SCA, does that count for anything?

Ye, if you are attacked by an unarmed man (or a man with a sword) while you have a sword. ;)

I once weight trained with a Chinese Olympic Fencer. Strongest woman I ever lifted with. I'm sure she could have defended herself very well barehanded.

lemming

Apr 8th, '05, 04:34 PM

I'm sure about the fun part. Enjoying your hobby, having fun, does not preclude taking your hobby seriously. I take my training reasonably seriously and I have a lot of fun with it. :)

I would also point out that the most useful self defense techniques involve learning how to recognize and avoid trouble. Breaking up the fights your drunk friends are having is a useful skill, but from a self defense point of view it's not as useful as avoiding the company of violent drunks. ;)
Very much so. I didn't have many problems before I started training, but after a few years of American Kenpo I had none. If you can avoid having to use the physical part of your training, everyone is better off.

Dauntless

Apr 8th, '05, 07:46 PM

Since I don't drink, I always get to be the designated sober :rolleyes:

Unfortunately that sometimes meant I had to bail a friend's ass out of trouble (one of my friends was this small 5'6" Japanese guy that decided to pick a fight with this 6'3", about 220-230 athletic looking dude....and the big dude was sober). That's why I put the Awareness skill up in my list. If you can avoid trouble in the first place all the better. To paraphrase Sun Tzu , "100 victories in 100 battles does not make the greatest general, but rather the general that wins without fighting at all".

Now one thing I've really been asking myself is whether its better to learn one art very thoroughly, taking 5+ years to study it thoroughly, or to train in several arts for 2+ years. I've done the latter, and it's helped give me insight different approaches to combat. But one of my senseis also often said that it's better to have one PhD than two masters (meaning that it's better to truly master one art before you move on to something else). I can see his logic, but I know for certain that my training has helped me on occasion.

A great example of this was while I was learning Choy Lay Fut. Well, one day, the Tai Chi Sifu came early and asked my Sifu if he could spar with the other students (we shared our kwoon with the Tai Chi sifu and his student...they came after us). I saw the two sifus share a somewhat sinister grin at each other, and my sifu allowed the sparring to take place. The Tai Chi Sifu first sparred with our two most senior students and he absolutely humiliated them. It was actually funny as hell to watch because the Choy Lay Fut students had no clue what to do when the Tai Chi sifu would trap their arms or legs (sort of like Jeet Kune Do's sticky hands), and the Tai Chi sifu was throwing these guys all over the place. It got the point where one of the students even literally turned his back to the sifu and started running away :)

When it got to my turn, because I also had some Aikido background, I didn't care when he would trap my arm, because I would just either attempt an escape, or I'd try to do a reversal (which admittedly weren't that successful). Nevertheless, even though I was just a junior Choy Lay Fut student, I fared better than the advanced students because I wasn't afraid to get into grappling range with the Tai Chi sifu (our Choy Lay Fut Sifu kept screaming at the advanced students why they would retreat every time the Tai Chi sifu would attempt an offensive maneuver...so that's exactly what I did, I would do an irimi-style defensive manuever by going into his attacks rather than retreat).

But OTOH, I can see that learning an art through and through will give you many benefits too. In game terms I'm not really sure how to reflect this. I suppose you could give the eclectic fighter more techniques and the one art fighter higher CSL's. But it seems to me that there's a synergism involved in all the combat aspects that makes the sum of all those components greater than its sum.

bubba smith

Aug 11th, '08, 11:54 AM

An Ch'i- because what superhero doesn't want to be able to beat people with any object they can get their hands on?
only one i can think of is the original DOVE from the hawk&the dove

Vulcan

Aug 11th, '08, 12:35 PM

Bubbamancy strikes again!

Late in the thread there was a question of 'master of one style or skilled in many.' The answer is likely another question: What do you intend to do?

10 years in a competion style will make you very good in the ring, but you might not fare so well in a street fight that comes at you from the style's weakness. And all styles have a weakness, have no doubt about that. (With the sole exception of Shinanju, but that's a fictional art anyway.)

On the other hand, 1 year each in 10 self-defense arts will give you a good broad basis for handling street fights. But get into the ring and you're gonna get your head handed back to you by your more specialized opponent.

10 years in a self-defense art will leave you better prepared for the street fight than the equivalent 'competition' fighter. But then there's still that pesky weakness problem...

There's no right or wrong answer to the question, just an endless debate. Because for every art (even 'untrained but experienced street fighter-fu') there is a fight that caters to the style - and a fight where that style will be nearly useless.

Kirby

Aug 11th, '08, 12:41 PM

Bubbamancy strikes again!Instead of Wuxia Hero, I think his title should be "Thread Necromancer," or, going with the connotation of "bubba" he should do "Redneck Necromancer." :ugly: :D

Bloodstone

Aug 11th, '08, 12:57 PM

Aikido only would work on a comic book,Kun fu wont even work there. Sure,against a man who dosent know how to fight,anything will work.

::face palm::

Brazilian jujitsu,Luta libre and Grecoroman-wrestling for grappling and submissions. Muay Thai and Boxing for standing. What professional fighters use today is a mixture of all that.Its called Mixed Martial Arts. If you dont belive me, watch the UFC or PrideFc.

There's a lot more to a real fight than what you see in the UFC. In fact there are some bad habits that can be learned by training for this (or any) combative sport. I know cause I've trained in most of what you have listed above and then some ;)

Most wrestling arts suck at multiple man encounters.

Most sportive arts provide minimal training for an armed encounter.

There's different psychological conditioning involved in stepping into the ring with someone who you are prepared for, is in your weight class and is not intending to maim you... and being in the street with some random psycho that is twice your size that want's to kill you and your loved ones.

In the UFC, no one will look down at you for quitting and tapping out. In a real fight, you may not have the option to back out once you realize your in over your head.

That said, the above arts definitely provide you with good tools and the training requires that you to develop a combative mindset, so if I had to place odds I'm betting on the full contact fighter over the tai chi chuan practitioner... at least until they are both about 70.

At that point, the Tai Chi guy is probably in better shape than the guy that beat the crap out of himself every night in his youth ;)

NestorDRod

Aug 11th, '08, 12:58 PM

Scratch that. Buy a judge. Or a cop.

Money. The best superhero power ever. :D

Vulcan

Aug 11th, '08, 01:23 PM

A player in one of our games wanted to play a character he called "Captain Moneybags." 15 points of wealth, 5-Star Service (transplanted from Spycraft) and a boatload of other perks, contacts, and skills. And his bodyguard (bought as a Duplicate to avoid NPC considerations) "Armante," a powerful but not very bright brick in an expensive suit.:D

Sorry, that's well off subject, isn't it?:o

For game efficiency (and from a strictly mechanical standpoint), "Flying Dodge" is hard to beat. Abort to get +4 DCV and move. Who needs Dive for Cover? (I think it's broken as heck, but if a GM is silly enough to allow it after I point that out, he's earned what he's about to get!:eg:)

Stylewise? Unless your GM is heavy into realism (and assigns lots of modifiers to reflect it), there's really not a whole lot of difference between styles. Mechanically, a Headbutt is a Sinawali is a Punch is a Cross is a Bencao Kick. +0 OCV, +2 DCV, +2d6 damage, Martial Strike.

Susano

Aug 11th, '08, 01:26 PM

Vulcan

Aug 11th, '08, 01:29 PM

Steve ruled in the Question forum that the move was included as part of the Abort. Broken as heck!

Susano

Aug 11th, '08, 01:35 PM

Wow... all that for 5 points?

palaskar

Aug 11th, '08, 03:10 PM

Between Supreme Serpent and Dauntless, I think things are pretty well covered.

Two more ideas:

Use an obscure style, for difference and character flavo. Frex, Systema (ironically Jean-Paul Valley's system was simply called... "The system" and could be retconned into Systema), Daestreza, Stav, or that style used in two most recent Batman movies. That's not Ninjitsu...IIRC, it's a Spanish/Gypsy MA...perhaps Zipota?

Have your character come up with his own style. Very effective for pure MA, or very skilled ones. Frex, Batman. He claimed to have taken the best from 10 styles in his comic, saying things like "From an old Chinese woman I learned the importance of chi." (This may actually refer to a real person, Sun Lu-tangs daughter, and one of the few female lineage holders.)

lapsedgamer

Aug 11th, '08, 03:21 PM

Between Supreme Serpent and Dauntless, I think things are pretty well covered.

Two more ideas:

Use an obscure style, for difference and character flavo. Frex, Systema (ironically Jean-Paul Valley's system was simply called... "The system" and could be retconned into Systema), Daestreza, Stav, or that style used in two most recent Batman movies. That's not Ninjitsu...IIRC, it's a Spanish/Gypsy MA...perhaps Zipota?

Isn't that that Keysi Fighting Method in the new Batman movies?

Linkage for reference:

http://www.movies.martialarm.com/videos/Keysi_Fighting_System_Videos/Keysi_Fighting_System

http://kungfucinema.com/?p=975

Bloodstone

Aug 11th, '08, 03:36 PM

...that style used in two most recent Batman movies. That's not Ninjitsu...IIRC, it's a Spanish/Gypsy MA...perhaps Zipota?

From what I know of it, the Keysi Fighting Method is in large part derived from the Inosanto Academy's blend of SE Asian arts and JKD.

One of the founders just happens to be from Spain... no idea about the gypsy thing... first I've heard of it, but I don't know the man personally.

moquif

Aug 11th, '08, 04:17 PM

At that point, the Tai Chi guy is probably in better shape than the guy that beat the crap out of himself every night in his youth

I am glad someone mention Tai Chi by now. The things Dauntless talks about is pretty much covered by Tai Chi. Legend says it's the first martial art based on the movements of animals. I'd put it in the top ten because of the mysticism surrounding it and the unnatural calm Tai Chi masters have. Being able to fight while not getting mad and casually dodging/blocking and attacks can have an enormous psychological effect.

bubba smith

Aug 12th, '08, 02:24 AM

Instead of Wuxia Hero, I think his title should be "Thread Necromancer," or, going with the connotation of "bubba" he should do "Redneck Necromancer." :ugly: :Di like it thanks kirby

DusterBoy

Aug 12th, '08, 07:43 AM

Aikido only would work on a comic book,Kun fu wont even work there. Sure,against a man who dosent know how to fight,anything will work.

Brazilian jujitsu,Luta libre and Grecoroman-wrestling for grappling and submissions. Muay Thai and Boxing for standing. What professional fighters use today is a mixture of all that.Its called Mixed Martial Arts. If you dont belive me, watch the UFC or PrideFc.

Now, since this is Comics, i will go with Kun Fu and Pro-Wrestling. Nothing can beat a rock botton!! if you smell what the Rock is cooking!!.

If you had seen Kanetsuka Morehei (the guy who taught my aikido sensei), you'd take back that initial comment. The guy could just work magic - you couldn't get close to him without winding up on the floor.
Plus, he'd worked in mental hospital, and had much opportunity to use his art for real.

Nagisawa Takumi

Aug 12th, '08, 12:47 PM

If you had seen Kanetsuka Morehei (the guy who taught my aikido sensei), you'd take back that initial comment. The guy could just work magic - you couldn't get close to him without winding up on the floor.
Plus, he'd worked in mental hospital, and had much opportunity to use his art for real.

My brother who is no master, nor does he even claim to be any good taught me several things about Aikido, and frankly, it's a SUPERIOR style, except for one flaw and that's based on the fighter. Reflexes. If you have them, you can pretty much ruin your opponent's day. Otherwise, you'll get beaten up. :)

Aikido is not for me, but it IS a good style if you want to turn your opponent against them.

I believe it's called 'Origami with People' among the less serious practicioners. Having seen my brother's masters in action? I'll believe it.

Twilight

Aug 12th, '08, 02:53 PM

My brother who is no master, nor does he even claim to be any good taught me several things about Aikido, and frankly, it's a SUPERIOR style, except for one flaw and that's based on the fighter. Reflexes. If you have them, you can pretty much ruin your opponent's day. Otherwise, you'll get beaten up. :)

Aikido is not for me, but it IS a good style if you want to turn your opponent against them.

I believe it's called 'Origami with People' among the less serious practicioners. Having seen my brother's masters in action? I'll believe it.

Well wouldn't the lack of reflexes thing be a flaw in any fighting style? I mean if you don't have the reflexes you're liable to get clobbered no matter what fighting style you're using aren't you?

assault

Aug 12th, '08, 04:40 PM

Mr. R

Aug 12th, '08, 07:56 PM

Nin ten do

Ohh that was good.

Nagisawa Takumi

Aug 12th, '08, 11:18 PM

Well wouldn't the lack of reflexes thing be a flaw in any fighting style? I mean if you don't have the reflexes you're liable to get clobbered no matter what fighting style you're using aren't you?

Not quite. Uhm, in Aikido most of the maneuvers require you to move and intercept someone elses strike, which means if your hit, you can't do it. Or at least not without hurting yourself more.

The style requires a lot of careful positioning and excellent timing.

Most other styles don't as although, yes, not getting hit is ideal, you're not dependent on your opponent attacking you for the most part. In fact, more often than not, your trying to put him down first.

Admittedly this is not an Aikido only flaw, but it's the best one I know.

Kirby

Aug 13th, '08, 03:38 AM

Could we depart from the "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" derail and talk about the Ten Best Superhero Martial Arts? I'm sure you can start a thread in NGD if you want to continue this side discussion.

Comic

Aug 13th, '08, 04:22 AM

There's two kinds of martial arts instructor.

1. Some old guy who can barely move hobbles around shouting at his students about the right way to break boards and score points.

2. Some old guy who looks like he should barely be able to move tosses his students around like rag dolls and doesn't say a whole lot.

Which sums up the 'mine is better than yours' debate from the point of view of hobbling old guys, and we can go back to what works in comics:

acrobatics, breakfall, contortion, disarming, evasion, flight, gymnastics, hijinx, iaido, jumping -- the top ten elements from A-J that I like to see in graphical form moving a story forward.

Punches are aesthetically ugly, and stabbing is frankly boring in its brute force portrayal.

Lifting a villainous brick six stories into the air and diving him down through the top of his gadgeteering mastermind's disguised mobile tankvan at a crucial turnpoint in the fight while delivering a pithy monologue -- that's what I want to see.

YMMV

Vulcan

Aug 13th, '08, 11:21 AM

It occurs to me that one of the things that weighs heavily in rating a martial art is flexibility - how many things can it do?

While it is very difficult (at best!) to rate real-life martial arts this way, in HEROs it's actually pretty simple. It's the martial art with the most maneuvers.

So, with that in mind (and a copy of the UMA in hand), the most flexible martial art is....

Fencing, with 17 maneuvers! (and the weakness of needing a sword...)

Second place goes to Kung Fu at 14 maneuvers.

Third is a tie between Jujitsu, Lua, & Ninjitsu at 13 maneuvers each.

Honorable mention to all the arts with 10 or more maneuvers: Aikido, Arnis/Escrima, Arte Del'Abbracciare, Bando, Cinematic Brawling/Dirty Infighting (:eek:), Hapkido, Hsing-I, Krav Maga, Penjak-Silat, & Tai Ch'i.

Of course, this doesn't take into account an art having a large amount of overlap between maneuvers (Kenjustsu, for example, is a lot of strikes, with only Dogde and Disarm for variety). So this is very much a relative measure of flexibility, not an absolute.

Bloodstone

Aug 13th, '08, 11:41 AM

Of course, this doesn't take into account an art having a large amount of overlap between maneuvers (Kenjustsu, for example, is a lot of strikes, with only Dogde and Disarm for variety). So this is very much a relative measure of flexibility, not an absolute.

It also doesn't take into account that Steve can only afford to do so much research ;)

DusterBoy

Aug 13th, '08, 11:57 AM

It also doesn't take into account that Steve can only afford to do so much research ;)

LOL! There is also something called stav - in this context it can be summed up as Viking martial arts - although it encompasses much more than that.

Vulcan

Aug 13th, '08, 12:53 PM

If you think you know enough about it, write it up and post it! I'm sure there's a bunch of people on the boards here who would be interested.

Bloodstone

Aug 13th, '08, 01:20 PM

LOL! There is also something called stav - in this context it can be summed up as Viking martial arts - although it encompasses much more than that.

Well, that and there are a lot of Maneuvers specific arts SHOULD have that they don't. Here's an example where this issue is discussed somewhat:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65386

There's also a ton of fictional martial arts and, in the context of a comic book game, those tend to be the most bad ass forms. In the Marvel universe, K'un L'un arts are probably superior to any normal form of Kung Fu, as is Yengtao in the Champions universe.

Kirby

Aug 13th, '08, 04:11 PM

In a Dark Champions campaign I used to be in, our acrobatic clown, Harlequin, had capoeira, which he strangely used only in the training room. :rolleyes:

Eventually, when we started doing the subplots for the Tournament of the Dragon, he learned the fictional drunken clown fighting style and actually used it effectively in combat. Until he faced Card Shark and "with all the anger he could muster" punched him for 3d6 points of damage. :straight:

In a Western Hero campaign, I played a little Chinese boy who had drunken style kung fu. The PCs all thought he got drunk easily because he'd usually take a "shot" of whatever alcohol was available and then go all wobbly. He was only able to use it in a fight once (the campaign didn't last very long) and was able to use a dodge (scrambling underneath a table and chairs) and a legsweep (swinging a broom around with a "what was that?" question).

I forget the name of it right now, but there's also a "flying" martial art style that we used very efficiently as well.

David Blue

Aug 15th, '08, 05:36 AM

I recommend professional wrestling as the number one unarmed martial art.

Anyone who wouldn't be in a position to do a course and learn this art, because they don't have the brawn, endurance and pain tolerance for a career throwing and being thrown around by huge, beefy individuals, or because they lack the needed flamboyance, or because they don't have the control (when they are hit and hurt) to refrain from injuring people, or because they can't put together the fees for a teacher, had better reconsider a career as Batman or something like him.

I'm not saying you should go ahead and actually be a professional wrestler as your job. That might cut into your crime-fighting schedule, or make your physique and style overly recognizable to fans. But I do think the requirements and skills of professional wrestling are as near mandatory as you can get for a would-be Batman.

Other good martial include boxing, krav marga and escrima.

However if your primary martial art is boxing, and you are training to be Batman, you have to be a heavyweight. You don't have to be very big. Rocky Marciano wasn't. But your fists have to carry heavyweight authority, otherwise you need to rethink your aspirations. If you are skilled but you need to fight only within your weight class, you are not Batman.

David Blue

Aug 15th, '08, 06:06 AM

It occurs to me that one of the things that weighs heavily in rating a martial art is flexibility - how many things can it do?
I agree that this matters, but I think it's more important that it do what you need it to do. "Everything I need and nothing I don't" is a valid concept.

While it is very difficult (at best!) to rate real-life martial arts this way, in HEROs it's actually pretty simple. It's the martial art with the most maneuvers.

So, with that in mind (and a copy of the UMA in hand), the most flexible martial art is....

Fencing, with 17 maneuvers! (and the weakness of needing a sword...)
I think what matters most is that the art (be in character and) have the +1 to "use art with weapon" for every weapon that seriously matters to you, plus all your absolute "must have" maneuvers for that character. To buy an armed martial art for your favorite weapon, and then a different martial art to fight unarmed (in effect buying maneuvers twice, once armed and once unarmed) is too costly.

I think many more superhero characters would profit from a primary focus on kung fu or ninjutsu, or for bricks who use a lot of improvised weapons perhaps professional wrestling, than will stay happy with a choice of fencing or kenjutsu. The bare-knuckle brawl is too important in the superhero genre for it to be a good idea to ignore it, for most characters.

If you are not going to use a martial art that helps you both fighting unarmed and using your favorite weapon, I think there's a strong roleplaying / simulation case for taking a straight unarmed martial art. I was watching my Underworld DVD the other day, and I noticed that Victor's big sword was purely for dishing out damage. All his martial moves - the highly skilled moves that he could tag and control a faster, stronger opponent with - were unarmed, and he was winning with these unarmed moves till Selene intervened. Morpheus, in the Matrix movies, also likes a sword for dishing out more damage, but may be more effective on the whole unarmed, because of his excellent throws.

Bloodstone

Aug 15th, '08, 06:21 AM

I was watching my Underground DVD the other day, and I noticed that Victor's big sword was purely for dishing out damage. All his martial moves - the highly skilled moves that he could tag and control a faster, stronger opponent with - were unarmed, and he was actually winning with these unarmed moves till Selene intervened.

psst.. I think you mean Underworld...

Short Shot

Aug 15th, '08, 11:47 PM

RE: The Superhero thing - One requirement would have to be something that lets you deal with multiple opponents. I'll freely admit Gracie style Jujitsu as being great one on one real world but as I understand it one of the things they emphasize is that they don't believe you can fight multiple opponents effectively. To me, to be superheroish, you have to be able to handle bunches of mooks. Equilibrium being one example, where he gets surrounded and 10 seconds later everyone is dead (killed with one of the enemies' swords) and Jackie Chan is another, where he goes on the run and stops periodically just long enough to pick off whoever is closest before going back to being chased.

Real world stuff:
I'm with Dauntless and his list. If you want an effective martial art, find someone who has a systematic way of training that includes as many of those things as possible. Oh, and get in shape, as in run fast/run far/climb a fence in shape, not just "I can lift heavy weights" in shape.

Couple other comments, just so I can get my name added to the list of Internet Tough Guys:

Aikido being useless: Sorry, don't buy it. Japanese Riot Police are taught that. No way am I going to believe the Japanese are going to send RIOT POLICE to train for a year in something that doesn't work. (Reference: Angry White Pajama, by Robert Twigger)

Taiji (tai chi)/kung Fu: okay, I admit to being biased here since the school I go to teaches Long Fist and White Crane styles of Kung Fu, and Taiji. I'll freely admit I'm not going to win many fights but I'll bring up two of the senior students from the school for a reference. The first worked security on the local Navy base. He's had occasion work out with a SEAL or two and was able to hold his own and then some, although he admits they weren't going all out and he had about 15 years on the guy. The second worked as a bouncer in a local bar frequented by Navy and Marines, a bar noted for the number of times police had to be called. Again, he was good enough to hold his own against all comers. I asked him what he used the most and his reply was "...mostly taiji".

(/rant)
The big problem with taiji is that it's rare that you're going to find a teacher who teaches it as an effective combat art. Mostly it gets taught as "moving meditation". Yeah, right. Moving meditation, that just happens to have joint locks, take downs, escapes, and strikes with hands, feet, elbows, knees, and shoulders. Taiji is more than just doing the form slowly, people! (/Rant off)

Er... Sorry about that. Point being that effectiveness has little to do with the style, it's how it's taught and how you train.

Nagisawa Takumi

Aug 15th, '08, 11:49 PM

I'm still waiting to see where this Batman's Guide is from...

Maelstrom

Aug 16th, '08, 05:13 PM

Aikido being useless: Sorry, don't buy it. Japanese Riot Police are taught that. No way am I going to believe the Japanese are going to send RIOT POLICE to train for a year in something that doesn't work. (Reference: Angry White Pajama, by Robert Twigger)

Weeellll, there's Aikido and then there's Aikido. I assume that Japanese Riot Police are taught a different sort of Aikido than the kind I've run into. I've met black belts in Aikido who can barely tie their shoes. When I was a beginning Escrima student, we were working out in an Aikido dojo. The black belt who loaned us the space grabbed a jo and wanted to spar. I could disarm her -- my instructor, who was more politic, didn't spar.

Around my current home town, there are a few Aikido dojos, but they've given up even trying to call themselves 'self-defense' schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

I'd stick to Aikijutsu, or better yet, Jae's Sin Moo Hapkido.

Oddly enough, though, usually when I play a martial artist, I make up a martial art for him, like Seven Dragon Thunder (my character's name, as well). My first character was a ninja -- he used ninjitsu. Don't judge me, this was the early eighties. :lol:

sinanju

Aug 16th, '08, 06:04 PM

My suggestion to anyone who wants to study, is to study what you want. It's all fun. If you want to defend yourself, take a self defense class for the very basic stuff that actually comes in handy, stay fit, and maybe buy a gun.

I will recommend (again) Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training and Real World Violence by Sgt. Rory Miller. (Disclaimer, Rory is a friend of mine.)

Rory is a martial artist, worked as a bouncer, and until recently was with the county corrections department. He worked the jail, helped organize and train the CERT unit, and stopped counting his official "use of force" reports at 300. He's got a lot of experience with the difference between theory and reality. (He'll also tell you that violence is wa-a-a-y bigger than any single individual will ever experience*--his experience is just that, his experience. YMMV.)

Nonetheless, he's got a lot of useful things to say about martial arts training and how it does or does not train you to deal with real world violence. Most concentrate on a very small part of the whole experience (technique) and mostly ignore everything else. Situational awareness, strategy, coping with shock, fear, surprise--and the effects of adrenaline on your mind and body. Styles also evolve over time, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not. They all began with a specific purpose--but some are just sport now. Others purport to be combat styles, but may be totally ineffective in a crunch.

That's the fundamental issue. Any martial training system that doesn't routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death has a flaw built into it by design to save wear and tear on students. Which is fine--but if you don't know what that flaw is, and how to train to compensate for it, you're going to be sadly surprised in a real-world violent encounter. There are reports of cops who've fired their guns in a real situation, then stopped to pick up their brass! That's what they did on the range so many times--that's how they responded under pressure. Or martial artists who throw a series of punches that stop just short of hitting their attacker...because they've trained to do just that thousands of times in the dojo.... There are other, less obvious, flaws in all styles--they can be worked around--but you have to know to do that.

*He's dealt with knife-wielding attackers five times. As he writes, that might sound like a lot--and for any particular individual it is. But would you want to be trained by a coach who only ever boxed five times? Luck can play as big a part as skill, and what works perfectly in one situation could get you hurt or killed in another.

Kirby

Aug 16th, '08, 08:49 PM

Weeellll, there's Aikido and then there's Aikido. I assume <snip>
I will recommend (again) Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training and Real World Violence by Sgt. Rory Miller. (Disclaimer, Rory is a friend of mine.)

Rory is a martial artist <snip>:yawn: Once again, this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.

David Blue

Aug 16th, '08, 09:28 PM

That's the fundamental issue. Any martial training system that doesn't routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death has a flaw built into it by design to save wear and tear on students.
I have another opinion. Both in superhero fiction and in real life the ability to act effectively and with restraint is good. The ultimate extremity of violence is not superiority, and intelligent restraint is not weakness.

This is why I don't regard sinanju as the ultimate superhero martial art, or even one of the best: Remo and Chiun don't act with superheroic humanity and restraint, and this is partly built into their style.

Arts that emphasize control of violence are superior for a superhero. It can be an obvious kind of control, like in aikido or judo. (And I'm still a Judo Master fan.) Or it can be a subtler kind of control, like with professional wrestlers who are acting like savages but in fact take pride in never injuring their partners. (Brett the Hit Man Hart would be my poster boy here.) Either way, an art that does not routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death is something a superhero needs. A killer art, likely a weapon-based art, is at best a second string to your bow.

Maelstrom

Aug 16th, '08, 09:55 PM

:yawn: Once again, this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.

Oddly enough, though, usually when I play a martial artist, I make up a martial art for him, like Seven Dragon Thunder (my character's name, as well). My first character was a ninja -- he used ninjitsu. Don't judge me, this was the early eighties.

I was actually trying to do both. It's just that, when it comes to self-defense, there're so many phonies out there that I try to steer people clear.

Nagisawa Takumi

Aug 16th, '08, 09:56 PM

:yawn: Once again, this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.

I'm sorry we're not conforming to your tastes, your majesty, may I show you to another thread then?

David Blue

Aug 16th, '08, 10:13 PM

It's just that, when it comes to self-defense, there're so many phonies out there that I try to steer people clear.
When it comes to martial arts, the biggest favor we do our heroes is always assume that they find a real teacher and they're learning a real art, or that it's real the way they are learning it.

For roleplaying thrills, you may do some research, or the gamemaster may require you to. You may even get on a false trail. It's normal to go to a phony school or the bad guy's school at first, and only then realize you should be going to this other school.

But then you do. For player characters, a serious quest for something that's real and good in the martial arts always leads to success, and I think that's how it should be.

Short Shot

Aug 16th, '08, 10:51 PM

Weeellll, there's Aikido and then there's Aikido.

This is very true. I've dealt with 3 different kinds of aikido. One was so fu fu it wasn't funny. The person I was doing the technique on DID throw himself to the floor. It sure wasn't me. If that's all you've got in your area, I can see where you came to your opinion. In the other schools if you didn't do the technique you got hit, or the guy just stood there and looked at you as you tried to throw him.

:yawn: Once again, this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.

Sorry, Kirby, I would have left it alone if it was just "This style is awesome!" Any style, I don't care. I just couldn't leave it when something that I know works gets bashed. Again, it's all a matter of teacher and training.

I know of two guys who started about the same time under a master. One, as soon as he got his black belt, went and opened his own school, and his school is very popular, and profitable. The other studied another 4, 5 years under the same master, went to seminars, read the classics, and took additional private lessons with people who he believed knew what they were doing and then thought about what he was learning. He's got a small school out in the sticks. Both schools teach the same styles. Want to be the quality of their students differs more than a bit?

Arts that emphasize control of violence are superior for a superhero. It can be an obvious kind of control, like in aikido or judo. (And I'm still a Judo Master fan.) Or it can be a subtler kind of control, like with professional wrestlers who are acting like savages but in fact take pride in never injuring their partners. (Brett the Hit Man Hart would be my poster boy here.) Either way, an art that does not routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death is something a superhero needs. A killer art, likely a weapon-based art, is at best a second string to your bow.

I'll go with this. How often do superheroes trying to deal with people who are mind controlled, or fighting another hero over what turned out to be a misunderstanding? I can just see it. You're team mate, who is also your SO, gets mind controlled into attacking you, or has an illusion placed on them making you THINK they are one of the villains. "Sorry about the arm, hun. But don't worry, they an do amazing things these days reattaching limbs. Or maybe we can get you one of those really cool cybernetic ones! Hun? Honey? C'mon, it was an honest mistake!"

sinanju

Aug 16th, '08, 11:47 PM

:yawn: Once again, this becomes a "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" thread.

Try reading for comprehension sometime.

Kirby

Aug 17th, '08, 02:37 AM

I'm sorry we're not conforming to your tastes, your majesty, may I show you to another thread then?It has nothing to do with my tastes; it has to do with staying on topic and keeping this Champions related, regardless of what arrogance you display.

Try reading for comprehension sometime.Maybe you should try reading comprehension.

Nagisawa Takumi

Aug 17th, '08, 08:52 AM

It has nothing to do with my tastes; it has to do with staying on topic and keeping this Champions related, regardless of what arrogance you display.
Maybe you should try reading comprehension.

Few points:

One, threads drift, deal with it.

Two, we ARE on topic, but apparently, not on YOUR topic. Which is... I'm not sure.

Three, whenever people talk about Martial Arts you are bound to see that there are people who have their favourites, and will mention them.

Four, there are a LOT of misconceptions out there, and correcting them is NEVER a bad thing.

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 04:17 PM

Weeellll, there's Aikido and then there's Aikido. I assume that Japanese Riot Police are taught a different sort of Aikido than the kind I've run into. I've met black belts in Aikido who can barely tie their shoes. When I was a beginning Escrima student, we were working out in an Aikido dojo. The black belt who loaned us the space grabbed a jo and wanted to spar. I could disarm her -- my instructor, who was more politic, didn't spar.

To be fair, Aikido is rather lacking in striking and weapon techniques, being first and foremost a defensive style. I can't comment any further that that, though, because I don't know any of the people involved. The black belt might just have been inept, or Maelstrom might be an Escrima GOD.:D

Around my current home town, there are a few Aikido dojos, but they've given up even trying to call themselves 'self-defense' schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqMLzVKAJs

I'd stick to Aikijutsu, or better yet, Jae's Sin Moo Hapkido.

Oddly enough, though, usually when I play a martial artist, I make up a martial art for him, like Seven Dragon Thunder (my character's name, as well). My first character was a ninja -- he used ninjitsu. Don't judge me, this was the early eighties. :lol:

To me this looks like a training Kata prettied up and set to music, not a serious demonstration of the art.

As to Aikido's suitability as a defensive art... probably depends more on the teacher and the student than the overall art. I know there's some pretty harsh stuff in Aikido. Or maybe that part is Aikijutsu...

And what's wrong with playing a ninja? I played one for several years in a New Orleans-based campaign with heavy supernatural overtones. (Nothing like being nervous about hiding in a shadow because something nasty might already be hiding there...:nonp:)

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 04:18 PM

I have another opinion. Both in superhero fiction and in real life the ability to act effectively and with restraint is good. The ultimate extremity of violence is not superiority, and intelligent restraint is not weakness.

This is why I don't regard sinanju as the ultimate superhero martial art, or even one of the best: Remo and Chiun don't act with superheroic humanity and restraint, and this is partly built into their style.

Arts that emphasize control of violence are superior for a superhero. It can be an obvious kind of control, like in aikido or judo. (And I'm still a Judo Master fan.) Or it can be a subtler kind of control, like with professional wrestlers who are acting like savages but in fact take pride in never injuring their partners. (Brett the Hit Man Hart would be my poster boy here.) Either way, an art that does not routinely end in serious injury, maiming or death is something a superhero needs. A killer art, likely a weapon-based art, is at best a second string to your bow.

Depends on if this is a Golden/Silver age game, or a Bronze/Iron age game.

Kirby

Aug 17th, '08, 04:31 PM

Few points:

One, threads drift, deal with it.

Two, we ARE on topic, but apparently, not on YOUR topic. Which is... I'm not sure.

Three, whenever people talk about Martial Arts you are bound to see that there are people who have their favourites, and will mention them.

Four, there are a LOT of misconceptions out there, and correcting them is NEVER a bad thing.1: :cry: Waah
2: Because you're ignorant.
3: Which leads to the "my kung fu is better than yours" prattle of wannabes.
4: You'll never "correct" them because you're simply in a pissing contest. :rolleyes:

As for "on topic/thread drifiting best Super Hero Martial Art of people using real-world examples to prove their endowment" let me state that the ancient Spartans used pankration. They stopped entering the Olympic pankration competitions because biting and eye-gouging were banned. In other words, the combat form was weakened for games. Every other modern form falls short.

David Blue

Aug 17th, '08, 06:10 PM

Depends on if this is a Golden/Silver age game, or a Bronze/Iron age game.
If it's Bronze, Short Shot's points still apply, and likely with greater force, because Moral Lessons are abundant.

I'll go with this. How often do superheroes trying to deal with people who are mind controlled, or fighting another hero over what turned out to be a misunderstanding? I can just see it. You're team mate, who is also your SO, gets mind controlled into attacking you, or has an illusion placed on them making you THINK they are one of the villains. "Sorry about the arm, hun. But don't worry, they an do amazing things these days reattaching limbs. Or maybe we can get you one of those really cool cybernetic ones! Hun? Honey? C'mon, it was an honest mistake!"
Emancipation Maiden: "Look, Green Environmentalist, our entire hometown is being enslaved by the Wurlitzer being played by that guy who looks exactly like Spiro Agnew!"
(Sinister notes drift from the right wing propaganda device as the dull mass chanting of "Kah-lu-Ta!" changes to the more menacing "Green Or Patriotic! Green Or Patriotic!")
Green Environmentalist: "Great Gaea, Emancipation Maiden, they're being brainwashed to harm the environment! That's us!!"
(Crying from the right wing thought pollution and because under the mind control they are good people and don't want to do this, the people of Little-boxes-and-they-all-are-made-of-ticky-tacky-town roar the extremely evil initials GOP!! and attack.)

Cue: lots of heroes inflicting serious injuries, maimings and deaths on the people of Little-boxes-and-they-all-are-made-of-ticky-tacky-town?

And that's nothing compared to Bronze Age educative guilt trips on racial issues.

Are Sister Resister, Black Leopard and Ebony Electrifier rising up from the Ghet-to on Wings of Hope to attack our heroes in front of a huge crowd of righteously angry African Americans just because they were beguiled by the Establishment Twang in Holy Roller's Voice? Or are they responding to "false flags" attacks by the right wing villain team Excessive Force (Truncheon, Bullwhip, Fire Hose and Attack Dog) disguised as our heroes? Or, and this is where you know the Bronze Age has really arrived, are they right to attack, and are the powers and foci of forfeit for a while for not having done enough for The Black Mahn, and will they soon be adventuring in secret agent all white, with lots of guns and an oriental sage to get their heads straight?

Cue: lots of heroes inflicting serious injuries, maimings and deaths on the heroes of the Ghet-to, rising up against what they claim are their oppressors? And by the way, how did Bullwhip's bullwhip suddenly teleport into Super-Surge's hand just when he's facing up against the pulchitrudinous Sister Resister, who's romantic reluctance he's been trying to overcome for years, to the point of losing his cool with frustration?

Or (etc.)

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 06:21 PM

David Blue

Aug 17th, '08, 06:22 PM

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 06:26 PM

Thinking about it, look at the Jedi. Lightsaber combat is about as lethal a martial art as it gets. This from the guardians of the Republic.

But the training emphasizes using powers and skills in a responsable, restrained manner. Which is not unlike the Buddhist/Zen teachings of many martial arts.

(On a tangent: Just finished watching Kung Fu Hustle. Anyone created stats for the "Buddha's Palm Descending From Heaven" technique? Or should I say, anyone else? :D)

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 06:35 PM

I would also like to remind you of the well-loved gag where a villain threatens a DNPC or has some other overwhelming blackmail threat going, and forces two heroes to fight each other to the death, likely in a Roman-style arena. The heroes go along, but it's all fake: they're really just getting into position to set the DNPC free and take out the villain.

In this scene, a martial art that almost invariably causes serious injury, maiming or death is not ideal. Pro wrestling is ideal.

:confused:

If two heroes are faking it, what they're using doesn't matter (so long as it lacks the 'Full Power Only' limitation). They can use 1d6 of it at a time on each other all day long.

Their acting skills are more important for this scenario than 'does Hero #1 have a 20d6 Killing Strike going all out?':rolleyes: Although, I do admit, when it comes to faking a fight and making it look good, nothing beats pro wrestling.

(Not that I'd actually want to fight a pro wrestler for real, mind you. I'd get 'transformed' into an extremely unhappy pretzel!:help:)

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 06:44 PM

Had to go back for this one...

I have another opinion. Both in superhero fiction and in real life the ability to act effectively and with restraint is good. The ultimate extremity of violence is not superiority, and intelligent restraint is not weakness.

This is why I don't regard sinanju as the ultimate superhero martial art, or even one of the best: Remo and Chiun don't act with superheroic humanity and restraint, and this is partly built into their style.

True. But in their defense, Shinanju is an assassin's art. That's the whole point. Everything else is about getting close enough for the one blow - which absolutely must be fatal, first time, every time.

Chiun is not a superhero either. Superheros put on costumes and do things for the public good. The Shinanju masters assassinate people to earn gold to feed the home village.

David Blue

Aug 17th, '08, 06:48 PM

I feel I should point out two things for the 'deadly' martial arts.

First, even 'hard' forms such as Karate, Savate, and Tae Kwon Do teach - well, since we're talking Champions it would be 'allow' - Legsweep (Takedown for Tae Kwon Do). Always a good option for taking people down without serious injury.
Right. A Martial Throw is a Martial Throw, in game terms. It doesn't matter which art the move is from, it still works the same in game terms.

When combat maneuvers are the same in game terms, which they often are, the difference is merely one of roleplaying.

I'm highlighting the advantages of the less injurious, less maiming-oriented, less lethal martial arts from the point of view of roleplaying superheroes.

Second, be it ever-so-lethal at mazimium power, a martial artist always has the option to use a manuever at less than maximum. Or even (heaven forbid) pull his punch. Or both at once.:hush:

No matter what style your character uses, there are always options.
There are always options, but there aren't always equally good options, especially in roleplaying terms. Chiun, the master of sinanju, which is an excellent candidate for the supreme martial art assuming all you want to do is assassinate people, said that a user of the art could be placed at a very dangerous disadvantage if he wasn't going to kill people. The art had to be used in the right way, and like a powerful engine could even be dangerous to its wielder if its proper aim was blocked. Many stories illustrated the idea that once you start doing sinanju, you had better do it right. And doing sinanju right included lethal intent.

This likely wouldn't be reflected in a specific style disadvantage, more likely it would just be a roleplaying issue and a hook for sub-plots in scenarios and the occasional complication in a medium sized, otherwise un-threatening fight.

To a lesser extent, Sapir's frozen and revived master gladiatior in his book The Far Arena had a similar issue. He was an awesome killer, and could grab a normal kitchen knife and turn an Olympic fencing champion with a sharp foil into bloody chunks, quickly, safely and in such a spectacularly cruel fashion that it would make crowds roar, if the modern world still had crowds like they had in the good old days. Striking to stun: not so much.

Again, this would be mostly a roleplaying issue.

But, I think those roleplaying issues count, if you're trying to roleplay a superhero.

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 06:56 PM

So knowing a hard, agressive style as a super makes you a villian?

What about the kid who learned Karate because he idolizes Chuck Norris, then hits adolescence and his mutant powers emerge? Is he doomed to be a villian because he knows Karate, or can he turn it to good by simply not using his full power on strikes?

Your arguments would also serve equally well to say that super-strong characters must be villians. "He can break your neck with an uppercut; he must be bad!" Or perhaps he might just tap you in the head for 2d6 damage, rather than using his full strength?

David Blue

Aug 17th, '08, 07:03 PM

So knowing a hard, agressive style as a super makes you a villian?
No, and that's a silly straw man argument.

What about the kid who learned Karate because he idolizes Chuck Norris, then hits adolescence and his mutant powers emerge? Is he doomed to be a villian because he knows Karate, or can he turn it to good by simply not using his full power on strikes?
... "doomed to be a villain because he knows Karate" is the same silly straw man.

Your arguments would also serve equally well to say that super-strong characters must be villians. "He can break your neck with an uppercut; he must be bad!"
No they wouldn't. You've just run a straw man argument into the ground.

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 07:14 PM

Sorry, that just looks to be the conclusion you're headed for.

The long and short is that any martial art - including pro wrestling - teaches you how to inflcit lots of damage upon another person. That's the point of it. That's why it's called a martial art.

Even pro wrestling can be lethal. What do you think would happen if you held someone over your head, and then slammed them down onto your knee? Broken back; crippled for life. Then there's the move where the guy is held upside-down in the air, and slammed down head first into the mat. Do that for real and the guy is dead - basal skull fracture, broken neck and spinal cord, or broken skull.

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 07:46 PM

A question to the readers: did I push too hard during that exchange? No, seriously, I'm really asking if I pushed my point of view too hard there. Sometimes when I'm having fun in a debate I get a little over-enthusiastic...:o

Maelstrom

Aug 17th, '08, 07:49 PM

Maelstrom might be an Escrima GOD.:D

Wouldn't that be lovely. Thank you sir. But it was a long time ago, on the other side of children.

Maelstrom

Aug 17th, '08, 07:53 PM

I spent around 14 years learning how to swing a sword in the SCA, does that count for anything?

Hell yeah! "They pushed me around, gave me all that crap, 'till I taught them all about the rising snap: I was born in the SCA . . ."

Vulcan

Aug 17th, '08, 08:02 PM

Ahh, yes. 'Revenge of the Rising Snap.' There's been a number of times I've wanted to use it in Boffer combt, but head hits don't count there...

Bloodstone

Aug 18th, '08, 06:07 AM

Sorry, that just looks to be the conclusion you're headed for.

Doesn't look that way to me. To me, it looked like he's saying that in situation that calls for a non-lethal solution, he'd rather have a Choke Hold than a Neck Break.

The long and short is that any martial art - including pro wrestling - teaches you how to inflcit lots of damage upon another person. That's the point of it. That's why it's called a martial art.

Modern pro wrestling does NOT teach you how to inflict lots of damage upon another person. It teaches you what not to do so as to avoid inflicting lots of damage upon another person. There's a difference.

Pro Wrestling says "Don't drop your opponent on his head. Bad things may happen".

Another art, like Shuai-Chiao perhaps, says "When you drop a man on his head, you do it like this. That way, death is almost assured. Should you merely want to cripple him, you do this. And if you only want to knock him out, I suppose you could drop him like so..."

The same is true of most Amateur Wrestling, be it Folk Style, Free Style or Greco-Roman. The most dangerous stuff isn't taught because they don;t want people to ever use it. It's a sport where you do not wnat to maim your opponent.

Thus the huge difference between my high school wresting coach screaming at me "NO!!! You do NOT do the Full Nelson! It's an illegal and you could get DQed... and you can break a guys neck with it...". Then there was my Catch Wrestling coach, who taught me how to break a mans neck with a full nelson from half a dozen different entries, as well as how to use it for more gentile means, such as getting a submission or simply causing the guy to pass out as if it were a choke...

See the difference here?

Relatively few pro wrestlers in this day and age know how to actually wrestle and of those that do, very few are legit Shooters. That said, most guys do know how to do a few submission hold somewhat correctly, they just lack all the proper tools to set up those holds. They'll work pretty well on Fish, but then, what wont?

Now obviously, in a comic book world, all pro wrestlers can be said to really know how to fight. Even the most BS maneuver, including ones that REQUIRE the actual assistance of the opponent, can work 100% of the time on resisting opponents in such a world...

Even pro wrestling can be lethal.

Of course it CAN be. I personally know two guys that have had their necks broken in the ring. Both of them got lucky and are still able to walk. One of them still wrestles, though not as a Pro.

Then again, Gymnastics can also be lethal, but by and by large it's not an actual martial art... Gymkata not with standing :) Again, a comic book world changes that becuase in such a world, if you are a "hero", you can dodge bullets and kick ass just because you took tumbling or ballet lessons.

What do you think would happen if you held someone over your head, and then slammed them down onto your knee? Broken back; crippled for life. Then there's the move where the guy is held upside-down in the air, and slammed down head first into the mat. Do that for real and the guy is dead - basal skull fracture, broken neck and spinal cord, or broken skull.

So long as you have the means to get a resisting opponent up in the air over your head, sure, the Backbreaker may work. In comic book physics, Bane cripples Batman with such a move.

As for the Piledriver, again, a resisting opponent changes things. Signifigantly. Bob Sapp tried it on Big Nog in Pride and, while he lifted and slammed him, Nogeria wasn't in any real danger (and in fact mostly landed on his knees, as I recall). The Piledriver works because the opponent is going along with it, doubly so for the Tombstone/Martinete, a move so dangerous that it's banned in Mexico....and that I have let people do it to me on concrete ;)

Comic book physics and suddenly you are dead unless you have an epic breakfall or some degree of enhanced resistance to injury...