CSL silliness.

[Gary]

Character A has a standard 60 pt multipower with 5 ultra slots.

60 Multipower reserve
6 u Attack 1
6 u Attack 2
6 u Attack 3
6 u Attack 4
6 u Attack 5

He pays 90 pts total, and has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 6 End per shot. So far so good.

Character B builds the following multipower:

5 Multipower reserve
1 u Attack A
1 u Attack B
1 u Attack C
1 u Attack D
1 u Attack E

He pays 10 pts and then adds +22 CSLs with the multipower for 66 pts. He pays 76 pts total. By using 2 CSLs per DC, he now has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 1 End per shot, is 14 pts cheaper than Character B's multipower, and more efficiently "spreads" (each DC traded translates to +2 OCV instead of +1 and doesn't cost End).

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End? :D

[ghost-angel]

What kind of wine would you serve with this cheese?

[prestidigitator]

He pays 10 pts and then adds +22 CSLs with the multipower for 66 pts. He pays 76 pts total. By using 2 CSLs per DC, he now has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 1 End per shot, is 14 pts cheaper than Character B's multipower, and more efficiently "spreads" (each DC traded translates to +2 OCV instead of +1 and doesn't cost End).

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End? :D
Sure, except that you can only double the DCs of your Attack Powers, so they will be at most 2 DCs. On top of that, you won't be able to increase the damage any further using Str or maneuvers (except using Martial Arts, I think, but that one isn't much cheaper than buying up your attacks).

[Gary]

Sure, except that you can only double the DCs of your Attack Powers, so they will be at most 2 DCs. On top of that, you won't be able to increase the damage any further using Str or maneuvers (except using Martial Arts, I think, but that one isn't much cheaper than buying up your attacks).


Ah, but you're missing the forest for the trees. You can simply have a 30 pt multipower instead with 12 CSLs. 81 total points and you get all the previously mentioned benefits.

The basic point is that 2 CSLs is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End and far better and more useful.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Character A has a standard 60 pt multipower with 5 ultra slots.
*snip*

He pays 10 pts and then adds +22 CSLs with the multipower for 66 pts. He pays 76 pts total. By using 2 CSLs per DC, he now has 5 attacks at the 12 DC level that costs 1 End per shot, is 14 pts cheaper than Character B's multipower, and more efficiently "spreads" (each DC traded translates to +2 OCV instead of +1 and doesn't cost End).

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End? :D

Thats if your GM is insane enough to allow this.

In general, CSL's are only allowed in limited numbers due to CV restrictions. I also use a House Rule that CSL's cannot increase the DC of an attack by more than double the base DC, irregardless of whether its a Hand to Hand attack or a Ranged attack.

[prestidigitator]

Oh, and +2 CSLs with a tight group isn't cheaper than:

1d6 HA; 0 End (+1/2); HA (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]
so don't argue that one (okay, I guess with the Framework the HA might be more expensive, but only by 1 point).

[prestidigitator]

I also use a House Rule that CSL's cannot increase the DC of an attack by more than double the base DC, irregardless of whether its a Hand to Hand attack or a Ranged attack.
That's not a House Rule. It is standard (well, again we could do the whole HA debate, but whatever).

[Gary]

Oh, and +2 CSLs with a tight group isn't cheaper than:

1d6 HA; 0 End (+1/2); HA (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]
so don't argue that one (okay, I guess with the Framework the HA might be more expensive, but only by 1 point).


It's cheaper than most attacks at 0 End. +1 DC 0 End generally costs 7.5 points. 2 CSLs cost 6 pts and allows you to use them for OCV/DCV if you don't need the damage.

[prestidigitator]

The basic point is that 2 CSLs is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End and far better and more useful.
That's true. Especially if you are applying it to a couple attacks. What do you think about "tight group" applying to all that stuff in the Multipower, though? I think in a Superheroic game I'd make you just buy those as 5-point CSLs of one type or another (after all tight groups, etc., apply more to a Heroic game that uses the Weapon Familiarity Table).

Anyway, this is just sorta the Str argument all over again. You can buy:

+5 Str; 0 End (+1/2); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]
just as easily as the HA I mentioned; it applies to all your HTH attacks, and it is incredibly useful for other things.

[Gary]

That's true. Especially if you are applying it to a couple attacks. What do you think about "tight group" applying to all that stuff in the Multipower, though? I think in a Superheroic game I'd make you just buy those as 5-point CSLs of one type or another (after all tight groups, etc., apply more to a Heroic game that uses the Weapon Familiarity Table).

Anyway, this is just sorta the Str arguement all over again. You can buy:

+5 Str; 0 End (+1/2); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [7 Active, 5 Real]
just as easily as the HA I mentioned, it applies to all your HTH attacks, and it is incredibly useful for other things.


Every single official example character pays 3 pts for +1 with a multipower.

Did I ever mention that the Str rules were broken? :D

[ghost-angel]

Thats if your GM is insane enough to allow this.

In general, CSL's are only allowed in limited numbers due to CV restrictions. I also use a House Rule that CSL's cannot increase the DC of an attack by more than double the base DC, irregardless of whether its a Hand to Hand attack or a Ranged attack.

I have to correct this because I see all over the place:

"irregardless" is NOT (repeat NOT) a word.

The word is REGARDLESS.

yes, I know some dictionaries are adding the incorrect word - that's just proof that a language doesn't alway grow intelligently.

anyway, back to the cheese that is this thread. have a nice day.

[prestidigitator]

I have to correct this because I see all over the place:

"irregardless" is NOT (repeat NOT) a word.

The word is REGARDLESS.

yes, I know some dictionaries are adding the incorrect word - that's just proof that a language doesn't alway grow intelligently.

anyway, back to the cheese that is this thread. have a nice day.
Yeah, well I absolutely hate that -ly is being dropped from adverbs, but still find myself slipping and doing it too (you don't walk, "slow." You may be slow, but you walk slowly).

[prestidigitator]

Every single official example character pays 3 pts for +1 with a multipower.
Huh. I guess I've never paid much attention to that aspect of the official examples.


Did I ever mention that the Str rules were broken? :D
:nya:

[Hugh Neilson]

That's true. Especially if you are applying it to a couple attacks. What do you think about "tight group" applying to all that stuff in the Multipower, though? I think in a Superheroic game I'd make you just buy those as 5-point CSLs of one type or another (after all tight groups, etc., apply more to a Heroic game that uses the Weapon Familiarity Table).

I use 3 point levels in a Supers campaign. However, we've also never permitteed CSL's to increase damage in a Supers campaign. [I thought that was a rule somewhere, but maybe it fel by the wayside an edition or two ago?]

[OddHat]

I use 3 point levels in a Supers campaign. However, we've also never permitteed CSL's to increase damage in a Supers campaign. [I thought that was a rule somewhere, but maybe it fel by the wayside an edition or two ago?]

In a Superheroic campaign, 2 CSLs can only add 3 Stun and no Body to a normal attack, or 1 body to a Killing attack, and the damage done can not exceed the maximum possible damage that could be done by the weapon, as per 5thER p.406. So, CSL Man is going to find himself doing much less body with his normal attacks, and topping off his damage a bit lower than he otherwise would.

[Gary]

In a Superheroic campaign, 2 CSLs can only add 3 Stun and no Body to a normal attack, or 1 body to a Killing attack, and the damage done can not exceed the maximum possible damage that could be done by the weapon, as per 5thER p.406. So, CSL Man is going to find himself doing much less body with his normal attacks, and topping off his damage a bit lower than he otherwise would.

In a non-Superheroic campaign, the problem still exists. In a Superheroic campaign, this is no worse off than Standard Effect, and the Character has more points to play with due to his savings. The 'not exceeding maximum effect has almost no relevance' unless the attack is extremely small to begin with.

Of course Hugh's solution of not allowing it also works. ;)

[David Blue]

What kind of wine would you serve with this cheese?After your gamemaster allowed it, your fellow players would supply the wines.

[OddHat]

In a non-Superheroic campaign, the problem still exists. In a Superheroic campaign, this is no worse off than Standard Effect, and the Character has more points to play with due to his savings. The 'not exceeding maximum effect has almost no relevance' unless the attack is extremely small to begin with.

Of course Hugh's solution of not allowing it also works. ;)

Like the extremely small attack in the example you posted? :D

I'd go with Hugh's option of saying "no" as well. It fixes a fair number of potential problems in Hero. ;)

By the way, good to see you posting again. :)

[Gary]

Like the extremely small attack in the example you posted? :D

I'd go with Hugh's option of saying "no" as well. It fixes a fair number of potential problems in Hero. ;)

By the way, good to see you posting again. :)

Thanks! :)

My solution would probably be to only allow 5 pt or greater CSLs to trade for DCs, and only if there are no Limitations on them.

[keithcurtis]

Just say, "no." Balance problem solved. :)

Keith "Hey Apple! It's 'Think Different-<i>ly!</i>' " Curtis

[Supreme Serpent]

I have to correct this because I see all over the place:


I see all over the place too. Unless it's dark, or something. ;)

[Supreme Serpent]

The actual issue itself thought - that's part of a problem from adding new abilities to Combat Levels they didn't originally have, yet leaving the price the same. If when they added this ability they had repriced levels to 3, 5, 8, 10, 12 (hey, that's SPD 5!) or somesuch, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

[CourtFool]

yes, I know some dictionaries are adding the incorrect word - that's just proof that a language doesn't alway grow intelligently.

I have to disagree with you here. English is a living language where you can make up words on the fly and be understood. It adopts new words daily. As a writer and a poet that means options. I think that is growing intelligently as opposed to stagnating.

Mark my words, America's legacy will be the English language.

[OddHat]

Mark my words, America's legacy will be the English language.

And England's legacy will be...?

I always thought America's legacy would be fat people in spandex with guns.

[CourtFool]

And England's legacy will be...?

That was very nationlist of me, wasn't it?

[Supreme Serpent]

That was very nationlist of me, wasn't it?

Almost jingoable, even. Perhaps a touch of hubrisiousness as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Mark my words, America's legacy will be the English language.

When did Americans start speaking English? And learn to spell - Armour, Labour...

[Hugh Neilson]

My solution would probably be to only allow 5 pt or greater CSLs to trade for DCs, and only if there are no Limitations on them.

That may be an ideal solution. I see a lot of 2 and 3 point levels in Supers, but rarely a 5 point. Why? Well, if I'm going to spend 10 points to have two levels to get +2 OCV or DCV, why not spend 18, get 6 back on my Speed and boost my DEX 6? For 2 more points, both go up by 2, plus I get better DEX rolls and move up in action order.

By allowing 5+ point levels to be used to add damage, these would now serve a purposes and might be uswed by Supers a bit more often.

Sure, there's abuse potential - there is with almost everything. And I would agree that "to max damage" isn't likely to have a huge impact when you're throwing 12 dice around anyway.

[OddHat]

And I would agree that "to max damage" isn't likely to have a huge impact when you're throwing 12 dice around anyway.

Maybe. From another POV, 6 points with a normal attack multipower is getting you +1 0 End DC that does no body and effectively requires you to use Standard Effect for part of the power as compared to the 7.5 points you'd normally spend. It's not all that much of a limit, but then its not all that much of a point break either.

[Gary]

Maybe. From another POV, 6 points with a normal attack multipower is getting you +1 0 End DC that does no body and effectively requires you to use Standard Effect for part of the power as compared to the 7.5 points point you'd normally spend. It's not all that much of a limit, but then its not all that much of a point break either.


Don't forget that the point savings is greater than you think. That's because the 2 CSLs can apply to more than one attack. So in a multipower for example, you're probably saving points on each slot as in my original example.

[OddHat]

Don't forget that the point savings is greater than you think. That's because the 2 CSLs can apply to more than one attack. So in a multipower for example, you're probably saving points on each slot as in my original example.

Your original exaple was incorrect, but we can go with your second example, a 30 point MP with 12 3 point levels for a total of 72 points, versus a 75 point MP.

For all applicable slots in a MP, two combat skill levels will add that +1 Standard Effect Does No Body 0 END DC for 6 points, and those 6 points are not subjet to any limits. Adding 7.5 points to the control cost will get you a standard 0 End DC, and those 7.5 points are subject to a price break from any limits on the MP.

In a superheroic campaign, using your example, its down to whether "Does No Body" is worth that 3 point savings on 45 points of a MP. If the MP has any limits the 3 point levels adding DC become less of a deal.

So, while I do see your point and I'd tell Skill-Levels-Man "No", it doesn't look all that bad. :)

[Gary]

Your original exaple was incorrect, but we can go with your second example, a 30 point MP with 12 3 point levels for a total of 72 points, versus a 75 point MP.

For all applicable slots in a MP, two combat skill levels will add that +1 Standard Effect Does No Body 0 END DC for 6 points, and those 6 points are not subjet to any limits. Adding 7.5 points to the control cost will get you a standard 0 End DC, and those 7.5 points are subject to a price break from any limits on the MP.

In a superheroic campaign, using your example, its down to whether "Does No Body" is worth that 3 point savings on 45 points of a MP. If the MP has any limits the 3 point levels adding DC become less of a deal.

So, while I do see your point and I'd tell Skill-Levels-Man "No", it doesn't look all that bad. :)


That 5 slot multipower costs 45 points plus 36 for the levels for a total of 81. To get the same effect, you need a 75 pt multipower with 1/2 end on each slot, for a total of 75+35=110 pts. And that's with the roundoffs in the second character's favor. Each additional +2 'DC' costs the first character 13.5 pts (5 to add 1 DC to the 30 pt multipower, .5 for each of the 5 slots, and 6 for +2 CSLs). Each additional +2 DC for the second character costs 18.75 points (12.5 for the multipower reserve and 6.25 for 5 slots at 1.25 each).

So it's not only 29 pts cheaper, it's almost 40% more expensive to increase damage for the full multipower as opposed to the half multipower plus CSLs.

[OddHat]

That 5 slot multipower costs 45 points plus 36 for the levels for a total of 81. To get the same effect, you need a 75 pt multipower with 1/2 end on each slot, for a total of 75+35=110 pts. And that's with the roundoffs in the second character's favor. Each additional +2 'DC' costs the first character 13.5 pts (5 to add 1 DC to the 30 pt multipower, .5 for each of the 5 slots, and 6 for +2 CSLs). Each additional +2 DC for the second character costs 18.75 points (12.5 for the multipower reserve and 6.25 for 5 slots at 1.25 each).

So it's not only 29 pts cheaper, it's almost 40% more expensive to increase damage for the full multipower as opposed to the half multipower plus CSLs.

By the numbers you used above:
Character A pays 81 points.
He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 9d6+18 EB. The attack does an average of 49.5 Stun and 9 Body, with a minimum of 27 Stun and 0 Body, and a maximum of 54 Stun and 18 Body. The attack costs him 4 END.

Character B pays 110 points.
He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 15d6 EB at 1/2 end cost. His attack does on average 52.5 Stun and 15 Body, with a minimum of 15 stun and 0 Body and a maximum of 90 Stun and 30 Body. His attack costs him 3 END per use.

By that example, character B spent more points, but he also does more Stun on average, more Body on average, has a much higher maximum number of Stun and Body he could do, and spends one less END per shot.

So, is that worth a 29 point difference? "Maybe." :)

[Gary]

By the numbers you used above:
Character A pays 81 points.
He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 9d6+18 EB. The attack does an average of 49.5 Stun and 9 Body, with a minimum of 27 Stun and 0 Body, and a maximum of 54 Stun and 18 Body. The attack costs him 4 END.

Character B pays 110 points.
He now has a 5 slot MP that includes a 15d6 EB at 1/2 end cost. His attack does on average 52.5 Stun and 15 Body, with a minimum of 15 stun and 0 Body and a maximum of 90 Stun and 30 Body. His attack costs him 3 END per use.

By that example, character B spent more points, but he also does more Stun on average, more Body on average, has a much higher maximum number of Stun and Body he could do, and spends one less END per shot.

So, is that worth a 29 point difference? "Maybe." :)

Actually, it's 6d6+18 for the first multipower vs 12d6 for the second at half end. And both spend 3 End per shot since I corrected for this.

So it's 24 min, 39 average, and 54 max vs 12 min, 42 average, and 72 max.

I'd take the first one and 29 pts in the bank anytime.

[Sean Waters]

Whatever the technicalities of it all, I think Gary makes a good and interesting point: I'd never thought of using CSLs quite this extremely! Don't think I will be either, but it could make an interesting character: the perfect fighter - massive amounts of skill, relatively puny attacks that can be boosted by the skills. Hmm, maybe i'll try this construct out as a villain and see how it flies... :)

[OddHat]

Actually, it's 6d6+18 for the first multipower vs 12d6 for the second at half end. And both spend 3 End per shot since I corrected for this.

So it's 24 min, 39 average, and 54 max vs 12 min, 42 average, and 72 max.

I'd take the first one and 29 pts in the bank anytime.

Misread your example. :) Note that Skill Level Guy is doing on average half as much body (and thus less KB) with each shot as well.

Now, say that Skill Level Guy is using a Magic Staff (OAF) for his MP, a -1 limit. He is paying 15 + 5 + 36 = 56 points for his 6d6+18 Stun. Straght MP guy is paying 37+20 = 57 points for his 12d6. Now it's a 1 point difference. Would you want the straight MP or the Skill Level boosted MP?

[Supreme Serpent]

Not that they're terribly common, but such a construct would be especially vulnerable to drains, etc.

"Aha, I've got a 2d6 EB and boost it up with tons of zero-end levels!"

"Drain EB 3d6...11."

"Crud."

[OddHat]

Whatever the technicalities of it all, I think Gary makes a good and interesting point: I'd never thought of using CSLs quite this extremely! Don't think I will be either, but it could make an interesting character: the perfect fighter - massive amounts of skill, relatively puny attacks that can be boosted by the skills. Hmm, maybe i'll try this construct out as a villain and see how it flies... :)

One interesting way of doing this (point efficient as well) is with ranged Martial Arts for your TK MP. You can get some very impressive effects. :)

[OddHat]

Not that they're terribly common, but such a construct would be especially vulnerable to drains, etc.

"Aha, I've got a 2d6 EB and boost it up with tons of zero-end levels!"

"Drain EB 3d6...11."

"Crud."

That 2d6 EB would max out at 12 STUN and 4 Body no matter how many levels you poured into it, under Superheroic campaign rules.

[Gary]

Misread your example. :) Note that Skill Level Guy is doing on average half as much body (and thus less KB) with each shot as well.

Now, say that Skill Level Guy is using a Magic Staff (OAF) for his MP, a -1 limit. He is paying 15 + 5 + 36 = 56 points for his 6d6+18 Stun. Straght MP guy is paying 37+20 = 57 points for his 12d6. Now it's a 1 point difference. Would you want the straight MP or the Skill Level boosted MP?


Of course it has to be adjusted on a case by case basis, but the general situation favors the CSL guy.

[OddHat]

Of course it has to be adjusted on a case by case basis, but the general situation favors the CSL guy.

Agreed, in campaigns where frameworks without limits are the norm. Skill Level Guy may be a munchkin, but he's an amateur compared to your End Reserve with Googleplex Charges guy. :)

[Zed-F]

I'd have to wonder why MP guy is buying an MP without limits in the first place. The whole point of taking an MP is so you can put limits on the reserve. If you're going to skip that part, a VPP is almost always the better option anyway.

And then you can buy your skill levels with the VPP. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Of course it has to be adjusted on a case by case basis, but the general situation favors the CSL guy.

Until you hit him with an entangle. A 12d6 EB will break a 6d6 6 def (or 4d6 8 DEF) entangle pretty quickly. Good luck getting out with only 6d6 worth of BOD.

And what do those skill level DC's add to unusual attacks (ie attacks that donl't do Stun or BOD)? Most 5 slot MP's have a few of those.

Now, the Knockback issue may be negligible, but in that case, MultipowerMan should put No Kncokback (-1/4) on his MP. He'll still do BOD. Of course, this implies all his attacks would otherwise do knockback.

[Lord Mhoram]

Keith "Hey Apple! It's 'Think Different-<i>ly!</i>' " Curtis

Responding to the derailment rather than thread topic...

The above quote makes me want to start singing a song from the musical 1776.

And I didn't know that irregardless was not a word - looked it up at dictionary dot com and read thier entry - it will be purged from my active vocabulary post haste.

[OddHat]

Until you hit him with an entangle. A 12d6 EB will break a 6d6 6 def (or 4d6 8 DEF) entangle pretty quickly. Good luck getting out with only 6d6 worth of BOD.

And what do those skill level DC's add to unusual attacks (ie attacks that donl't do Stun or BOD)? Most 5 slot MP's have a few of those.

Now, the Knockback issue may be negligible, but in that case, MultipowerMan should put No Kncokback (-1/4) on his MP. He'll still do BOD. Of course, this implies all his attacks would otherwise do knockback.

CSL guy is also at a disadvantage when facing automatons, vehicles, force wall using foes, or trying to break through any kind of inanimate barrier. He is also still doing less Stun on average, and the KB issue becomes more meaningful as DCs increase.

CSL Guy is pretty much getting points back for a limitation; he may be getting too many points back depending on the campaign.

[Sean Waters]

CSL guy is also at a disadvantage when facing automatons, vehicles, force wall using foes, or trying to break through any kind of inanimate barrier. He is also still doing less Stun on average, and the KB issue becomes more meaningful as DCs increase.

I'd see that as quite realistic: the chap who relies on proficiency rather than puissance would be able to take down an opponent far more readily that a wall...

[Sean Waters]

One interesting way of doing this (point efficient as well) is with ranged Martial Arts for your TK MP. You can get some very impressive effects. :)

That's a very bad idea and it is going to have to be spanked. :nonp: :D :nonp:

...and then used in my next campaign...

[Gary]

Until you hit him with an entangle. A 12d6 EB will break a 6d6 6 def (or 4d6 8 DEF) entangle pretty quickly. Good luck getting out with only 6d6 worth of BOD.

And what do those skill level DC's add to unusual attacks (ie attacks that donl't do Stun or BOD)? Most 5 slot MP's have a few of those.

Now, the Knockback issue may be negligible, but in that case, MultipowerMan should put No Kncokback (-1/4) on his MP. He'll still do BOD. Of course, this implies all his attacks would otherwise do knockback.


I'd still rather have the extra 29 pts in the bank.

[Dust Raven]

Has anyone else noted that 2 CSLs with a tight group is cheaper than +1 DC 0 End? :D

You mean that... CSLs are actually better than DEX!?!?!??! :D:D:D:D:D:D Did you finally look up that rule, Gary? ;)

You are overlooking a critical rule about using CSLs to add damage. They only add DCs in Heroic campaigns, where the character isn't buying the attack with points. So CSLs become cheaper than... nothing. In Superheroic games, they can be used to add damage (not DC) to attacks, but the attack still cannot do more than the damage it could roll normally so it doesn't truly double the damage.

[prestidigitator]

In a non-Superheroic campaign, the problem still exists. In a Superheroic campaign, this is no worse off than Standard Effect, and the Character has more points to play with due to his savings. The 'not exceeding maximum effect has almost no relevance' unless the attack is extremely small to begin with.

Of course Hugh's solution of not allowing it also works. ;)
I don't know that it is such a problem in Heroic campaigns. There you typically don't pay for the attacks at all (or pay reduced amounts in the case of magic :rolleyes: ), so the CSLs are kinda expensive. Besides, other than getting a bigger weapon, Str, Martial Arts, and CSLs are the expected way to increase your damage. Even when we are talking magic/psionics/whatever, you typically don't just arbitrarily construct a new Power; you either spend effort finding one, or spend a lot of time and resources doing, "research," or what have you (at least in the Heroic games in which I have been involved).

[Gary]

You mean that... CSLs are actually better than DEX!?!?!??! :D:D:D:D:D:D Did you finally look up that rule, Gary? ;)

You are overlooking a critical rule about using CSLs to add damage. They only add DCs in Heroic campaigns, where the character isn't buying the attack with points. So CSLs become cheaper than... nothing. In Superheroic games, they can be used to add damage (not DC) to attacks, but the attack still cannot do more than the damage it could roll normally so it doesn't truly double the damage.

I said absolutely nothing about CSLs vs Dex in this thread. So where did you pull that?

As far as the rest, it has been adequetly summarized in this thread.

[prestidigitator]

One interesting way of doing this (point efficient as well) is with ranged Martial Arts for your TK MP. You can get some very impressive effects. :)
Agreed. Martial Arts DCs on Normal Attacks are pretty inexpensive. Not to mention costing 0 End and (IIRC) being able to exceed the double damage rule!

[EDIT: Minor reformatting for readability.]

[NuSoardGraphite]

That's not a House Rule. It is standard (well, again we could do the whole HA debate, but whatever).

Yer right. I thought the x2 DC damage limit only applied to HA and HKA, not EB and RKA.

[Dust Raven]

I said absolutely nothing about CSLs vs Dex in this thread. So where did you pull that?
It was in a different thead, very long ago, where you refused to acknlowledge this particular aspet of CSLs as a balancing point between them and DEX. I was just poking fun at that :).


As far as the rest, it has been adequetly summarized in this thread.

Well, I've seen comparisons to Standard Effect and such, but nothing acknowleging that in a superheoric campaign, CSLs can't increase damage above the max of the attack it's adding to. Maybe I missed something thouogh. It is a long thread already...

[OddHat]

Well, I've seen comparisons to Standard Effect and such, but nothing acknowleging that in a superheoric campaign, CSLs can't increase damage above the max of the attack it's adding to. Maybe I missed something thouogh. It is a long thread already...

It was on page one. :) (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=684151&postcount=15)

[NuSoardGraphite]

I have to correct this because I see all over the place:

"irregardless" is NOT (repeat NOT) a word.

The word is REGARDLESS.

yes, I know some dictionaries are adding the incorrect word - that's just proof that a language doesn't alway grow intelligently.

anyway, back to the cheese that is this thread. have a nice day.

Thank you Prof. Ghost-Angel!

Its interesting how so many incorrect terms become a part of our normal speach. I remember when I used to get yelled at by the teacher for saying "ain't", but its such a commonly used term, you never really stop using it.

Then again, I always got better grades in Spanish than I did in English.



"How did you get an F in English? Bobby, you speak English"

Hank Hill.

[Gary]

It was in a different thead, very long ago, where you refused to acknlowledge this particular aspet of CSLs as a balancing point between them and DEX. I was just poking fun at that :).



Well, I've seen comparisons to Standard Effect and such, but nothing acknowleging that in a superheoric campaign, CSLs can't increase damage above the max of the attack it's adding to. Maybe I missed something thouogh. It is a long thread already...


I reread my original post to you. After rereading, it sounds harsh and snappy. I hope you didn't take it that way, it wasn't my intent. :)

Anyway, I'm merely mentioning that +2 CSL > +1 DC 0 End. However, +3 Dex (for the exact same 6 net points), is also > +1 DC 0 End.

[prestidigitator]

Well, I've seen comparisons to Standard Effect and such, but nothing acknowleging that in a superheoric campaign, CSLs can't increase damage above the max of the attack it's adding to. Maybe I missed something thouogh. It is a long thread already...
I think the counter-argument was that for large attacks, the standard deviation of the rolls will be very small, so almost all rolled damage will be close to average (or about half maximum). Therefore, you have about half the maximum damage to play with using CSLs and still get an adequate payoff....

EDIT: And this becomes even more obvious if you use the Standard Effect Rule.

[prestidigitator]

And this becomes even more obvious if you use the Standard Effect Rule.
Huh. I just had an interesting thought regarding the Standard Effect Rule. When you can't have an effect "above the maximum roll on the dice" (either for an attack or an Effect roll for Adjustment Powers, for example), should dice bought at Standard Effect still be treated as having a maximum of 6, or, since you aren't rolling them, should they be considered to be already maxed out at 3? Just idle musing....

[Dust Raven]

Huh. I just had an interesting thought regarding the Standard Effect Rule. When you can't have an effect "above the maximum roll on the dice" (either for an attack or an Effect roll for Adjustment Powers, for example), should dice bought at Standard Effect still be treated as having a maximum of 6, or, since you aren't rolling them, should they be considered to be already maxed out at 3? Just idle musing....

That's what I was thinking actually. Personally, I'd allow it to add damage. Using SE kinda screws you as it is (but it's consistant! :lol: ).

[Dust Raven]

Ah, this, and the post it replies to, are what I apparenlty missed. Thanks OddHat!


In a non-Superheroic campaign, the problem still exists. In a Superheroic campaign, this is no worse off than Standard Effect, and the Character has more points to play with due to his savings. The 'not exceeding maximum effect has almost no relevance' unless the attack is extremely small to begin with.

Of course Hugh's solution of not allowing it also works. ;)

I definately get you, but isn't buying a small attack instead of a large one the point of buying CSLs instead of DCs.