Megascale Movement and Perception

[Wanderer]

5er suggests characters who have Megascale Movement to take the Megascale advantage on their senses as well, to be able to perceive where they're headed and possible obstacles.

Now, since the suggested solution is rather kludgy (because it involves using naked Advantages), shouldn't be alternative solutions equally effective, such as +PER to Targeting Sense(s), only When Using Megascale Movement, or adding the Telescopic Modifier to the character's Targeting Sense(s) ?

[Vondy]

Personally, I've always ignored this suggestion.

[OddHat]

I always disliked the suggested solution because, by the description of Megascale, it shouldn't work. You'd end up unable to see anything less than a KM away.

From a change-the-game POV, telescopic should work like Microcopic, for 10x distance per 3 points.

Even with the current rules, 45 points worth of Telescopic gets you +30 versus sight range mods, easily enough to go anywhere on Earth at Megascale speeds. Add Rapid and you can see perfectly the whole time. Of course, that is a lot of points...

[Hugh Neilson]

I always disliked the suggested solution because, by the description of Megascale, it shouldn't work. You'd end up unable to see anything less than a KM away.

I like to interpret this more as "you're unable to do more than see obstacles in time to avoid them", so you don't recognize your Aunt Petunia in Los Angeles as you pass through at 18,000 kph.


From a change-the-game POV, telescopic should work like Microcopic, for 10x distance per 3 points.

Even with the current rules, 45 points worth of Telescopic gets you +30 versus sight range mods, easily enough to go anywhere on Earth at Megascale speeds. Add Rapid and you can see perfectly the whole time. Of course, that is a lot of points...

COnsidering Megascale on my sight is only +1/4 (add for higher megascale advantages) I'm inclined to agree. Mind you, you could Link your Telescopic with theMovement (-1/2) and limit it to "Only allows avoiding obstacles" (say -1) which gets it down to 18 points.

Mind you, tjose limitations cold logically also apply to the naked modifier.

I'm inclined to see this as to much realism, however. We don't make the guy who flies at 10,000 kph buy "LS: Immune to Frisction and Air Pressure", so why should he have to pay for the ability to avoid obstacles in flight? Seems to me powers should come with enough ability that they can be used functionally.

[Hyper-Man]

I like to interpret this more as "you're unable to do more than see obstacles in time to avoid them", so you don't recognize your Aunt Petunia in Los Angeles as you pass through at 18,000 kph.



COnsidering Megascale on my sight is only +1/4 (add for higher megascale advantages) I'm inclined to agree. Mind you, you could Link your Telescopic with theMovement (-1/2) and limit it to "Only allows avoiding obstacles" (say -1) which gets it down to 18 points.

Mind you, tjose limitations cold logically also apply to the naked modifier.

I'm inclined to see this as to much realism, however. We don't make the guy who flies at 10,000 kph buy "LS: Immune to Frisction and Air Pressure", so why should he have to pay for the ability to avoid obstacles in flight? Seems to me powers should come with enough ability that they can be used functionally.

Too much realism? Maybe.
:D
I know that 5" of Flight with enough levels of Megascale including variable and 0 End can effectively give a character the ability to move at 8 times c (the speed of light!) Having some built in limitations for seeing where you are going is what balances this construct vs. a Megascale Teleport without the Safe Blind Teleport advantage.

The complaint about Megascale Senses causing the inability to see at normal ranges is only partially true. The example build of this ability in USPD for 7 points still costs 1 End per phase which makes it easy to turn on and off by use of existing rules. It might be a problem if you bought it 0 End.

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

I know that 5" of Flight with enough levels of Megascale including variable and 0 End can effectively give a character the ability to move at 8 times c (the speed of light!)

I've considered that approach as a good reason to remove FTL in 6e. We can do it with megascale, so why bother with a separate FTL power? Set a limit for "not in atmosphere" and away we go.

It's also strangely in genre in Sci Fi, since every SF I can think of off the top has a "warp to hyperspace" type FTL, not just acceleration

Star Wars: Hyperspace
Star Trek: Warp
Babylon 5: Jump Portal/JumpGates
Stargate: Coming out of warp to see Earth
Andromeda: Slipstream

[OddHat]

The complaint about Megascale Senses causing the inability to see at normal ranges is only partially true. The example build of this ability in USPD for 7 points still costs 1 End per phase which makes it easy to turn on and off by use of existing rules. It might be a problem if you bought it 0 End.

HM

Turn it on and off as much as you'd like, you should still technically be unable to see less than 1KM (or whatever) away while using it. Better not start your run on anything but a perfectly straight road. ;)

The more I look at megascale, the more I think that NCM should just have its price dropped to 2 points per doubling. Saves a lot of hassle.

I also agree with Hugh and Von. If you've paid for super-fast running, it seems silly to have to buy a raft of additional powers to avoid a crash. The Flash does not have telescopic vision (at least he never did when I was reading him), he has Rapid Sight.

[Hyper-Man]

Turn it on and off as much as you'd like, you should still technically be unable to see less than 1KM (or whatever) away while using it. Better not start your run on anything but a perfectly straight road. ;)

The more I look at megascale, the more I think that NCM should just have its price dropped to 2 points per doubling. Saves a lot of hassle.

I also agree with Hugh and Von. If you've paid for super-fast running, it seems silly to have to buy a raft of additional powers to avoid a crash. The Flash does not have telescopic vision (at least he never did when I was reading him), he has Rapid Sight.

I have a problem with using Rapid Sight by itself to allow manuevering at Mega+ speeds because it fundamentally changes an ability to process incomming information at high speed into one that allows you to react to that information at high speed as well. At least with Megascale sight you can make the argument that a character is getting the information on when he needs to change his path before he is right in front of an obstacle. And the cost is more in line with its usefulness compared to Rapid. Making a speedster character pay extra for all the 'bells & whistles' is a good way to enforce schtick preservation as well.

HM

[OddHat]

I have a problem with using Rapid Sight by itself to allow manuevering at Mega+ speeds because it fundamentally changes an ability to process incomming information at high speed into one that allows you to react to that information at high speed as well. At least with Megascale sight you can make the argument that a character is getting the information on when he needs to change his path before he is right in front of an obstacle. And the cost is more in line with its usefulness compared to Rapid. Making a speedster character pay extra for all the 'bells & whistles' is a good way to enforce schtick preservation as well.

HM

Personally, I have never seen a comic book speedster other than Superman (and clones) who arguably had megasale sight; I see it as a flavor power, and not a flavor power that fits most of the comic-book characters I'd try to simulate with mega-running. If you want to keep thing expensive for the sake of keeping them expensive, you can always require a minimum of x1000 Rapid Sight.

Also, how many comic book speedsters are there that can't react at higher-than-normal speeds to new information? Are they constantly breaking their ankles and smashing themselves to paste these days?

I could see megascale sight for something like a warp drive, though even then they generally use star charts rather than sight.

However, to do as thou will in your campaign shall be the whole of the law. ;)

[David Blue]

The more I look at megascale, the more I think that NCM should just have its price dropped to 2 points per doubling. Saves a lot of hassle.Me too.

I think "mega" may be a cursed preposition. "Mega-damage." Ugh! "Mega-scale!" Not good! Don't introduce a completely new (bigger) scale if you can help it. (With faster-than-light travel, I think you can't help it.) If you can continue with a well-established convention (like doubling), do so.

[Dust Raven]

I'll use both Rapid Sight and MegaScale Sight for those really fast characters, but not always.

Usually, a character with MegaMovement just goes really fast. If they want to avoid hitting things, they shouldn't try moving really close to anything. MegaFlight is okay, because you can just go up a few thousand feet and you only have to worry about really big terrain changes. For MegaRunning, you had better hope you've got some level open road (not recomended innercity).

If they want to see better while moving that fast, the character can buy Rapid Sight or MegaScale Sight.

Rapid Sight won't let you see what's coming, but it will let you see what's going. As in when you pass it, you can still pick out details. The stronger the Rapid Sight, the more details you can pick out.

MegaScale Sight works great for seeing what's up ahead in greater detail. When you are MegaRunning down the road and suddenly a mountain, MegaScale helps you find that mountain pass before you run the chance of splatting.

[Hugh Neilson]

As an alternative viewpoint for those Flash-level characters, perhaps they shoud buy that Round the World in 80 Microseconds power as Teleport, safe blind, only olaces he could run (probably -1/4 at best with all that Clinging ands skim water powers). They can't see miles ahead of them, yet they don't go SPLAT. There's your explanation.

[OddHat]

As an alternative viewpoint for those Flash-level characters, perhaps they shoud buy that Round the World in 80 Microseconds power as Teleport, safe blind, only olaces he could run (probably -1/4 at best with all that Clinging ands skim water powers). They can't see miles ahead of them, yet they don't go SPLAT. There's your explanation.

Or we could resist the urge to pointlesly stat out every frickin' in-genre or SFX linked "that's just how it works" ability.

So, how do you build a box of tissues in Hero?

[Starwolf]

So, how do you build a box of tissues in Hero?

Entangle: OAF, Only works vs Snot, 100 charges per box :snicker:

[atlascott]

What do the turn radius rules say about megascale? For standard movement, my recollection is your turn radius goes up as your speed goes up. Can a character who sees an obstacle at those speeds have the turn radius to get out of the way, anyway?

[OddHat]

What do the turn radius rules say about megascale? For standard movement, my recollection is your turn radius goes up as your speed goes up. Can a character who sees an obstacle at those speeds have the turn radius to get out of the way, anyway?

Unless you have purchased your mega-movement with no turn radius (which is the default for running), in theory you should crash and die. Another reason to adjust the Megascale rules.

[Hyper-Man]

What do the turn radius rules say about megascale? For standard movement, my recollection is your turn radius goes up as your speed goes up. Can a character who sees an obstacle at those speeds have the turn radius to get out of the way, anyway?

With some navigation talents and skills to use the top speed accurately this will get you anywhere on the planet in 1 phase for 103 points.

47 active and real points
Flight 5" [10 active] MegaScale(1" = 1,000,000 km; +1 3/4) Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km(+1/4) [20 active] Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration(+1) [10 active] No Turn Mode(+1/4) [2 active] Reduced End(0 End)(+1/2) [5 active]
[0 End]

{ Assuming SPD 6: Minimum Speed = 500" or ~ 1125 mph. Maximum Speed ~ 5,625,000,000 mph or 2,500,000,000 meters/second or ~ 8.34 x C or ~ 1 AU / minute }
{ C = The speed of light in vacuum = ~ 299,792,458 meters/second }


56 active and 37 real points
MegaScale (1" = 1,000,000 km; +1 3/4) for up to 25 Active Points of Normal Sight [44 active], Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km(+1/4) [50 active] Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4); Only To Perceive The Path Ahead While Moving At MegaSpeed (-1/2)
[5 End (to activate only)]
HM

[Sean Waters]

I don't think you can have no turn mode when mega-moving: it is always non-combat movement. Being able to change direction at will would mean that you could effectively have combat reactions. As far as I'm concerned, non-combat movement, including mega-movement, is basically in a straight line...with only minor course variations allowed.

I've always thought that rapid was a far more appropriate sense modifier than mega-scale. Realistically (or as reaslistically as this can get), megascacle sight is pretty pointless: if you are in space, objects are likely to be big enough to spot a way off anyways, and if you are on a planet then you've not likely to have a long enough unobstructed line of sight to make megascale sight worthwhile anyway.

I'm with the camp that says having the power comes with the ability to use it effectively. If your GM is giving you grief over using your mega movement you are either pulling a fast one (PI) and trying to abuse the power OR in need of someone to hold said GM while you bitch-slap (TM Lunch Money) him.

In any event, we have to look at what mega-movement is. It is the ability to get from point A to point B quickly. You probably have it in a multipower with your combat movement abilies. Frankly I don't try and hang the excitement in most of my games on whether a superhero can fly to France in a heartbeat: it comes down what he finds when he gets there (baguettes and red wine, by and large....oh, and Eurostar...) :)

[Sean Waters]

BTW: 'Can be scaled down'. Really not keen on this as it removes practically all of the checks and balances on megascale. It only leaves one that I am aware of: no matter how much you scale down, you are still moving non-combat when using the power.

[Dr. Anomaly]

BTW: 'Can be scaled down'. Really not keen on this as it removes practically all of the checks and balances on megascale. It only leaves one that I am aware of: no matter how much you scale down, you are still moving non-combat when using the power.
I really like "can be scaled down", and use it a lot. Then again, on a Megascaled Power that also has "can be scaled down", I generally treat the smallest value to which it can be scaled is 1" = 1km, the default for +1/4. That leaves most "checks & balances" in place, in my experience. :)

[Sean Waters]

I really like "can be scaled down", and use it a lot. Then again, on a Megascaled Power that also has "can be scaled down", I generally treat the smallest value to which it can be scaled is 1" = 1km, the default for +1/4. That leaves most "checks & balances" in place, in my experience. :)

Sounds like a reasonable compromise. Mind you I don't use megascale at all, except for villainous mind control devices and such like, so I suppose I shouldn't really worry about it!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Sounds like a reasonable compromise. Mind you I don't use megascale at all, except for villainous mind control devices and such like, so I suppose I shouldn't really worry about it!The main thing I've used it for is for charcters like speedsters, or extremely fast flyers. It's a lot more convenient than having to chuck a huge number of points into NCM. ;)

[Sean Waters]

The main thing I've used it for is for charcters like speedsters, or extremely fast flyers. It's a lot more convenient than having to chuck a huge number of points into NCM. ;)

Ah, but a lot less fun! I'm playing in a campaign where the GM designed our characters, and built the speedster so that he couldn't quite break the speed of sound. He was banned from spending points on NCM or megascale. He wound up putting all his XP into inches of running for the first six months just so he could run faster than sound, even though that was certainly not the most efficient way for the character to progress!

I'm not really against mega-scale: it is a useful tool, but like many useful tools, it often takes the place of one that might actually be better for the job in hand.

Remember The Authority when Apollo chases one of the invaders of London back to Genosha (or whatever it is called? That might have been an X-Men place :nonp: ) he had to be saved from running into the force field round the island by The Doctor.

If he wasn't going to stop at the force field, he probably wouldn't have stopped at the island either, but we'll worry about that some other time... :)

He has megascale vision. Didn't help much...

[Dust Raven]

Unless you have purchased your mega-movement with no turn radius (which is the default for running), in theory you should crash and die. Another reason to adjust the Megascale rules.

In my opinion, a reason not to fly at Mach 8 near large objects (like the surface of the planet).

[Dust Raven]

BTW: 'Can be scaled down'. Really not keen on this as it removes practically all of the checks and balances on megascale. It only leaves one that I am aware of: no matter how much you scale down, you are still moving non-combat when using the power.

You can't scale it down to less than a MegaScale value though, so the minimum you can have it is 1"=1km.

[Southern Cross]

So it's better to build Movement Powers with Variable Advantage,instead of having Megascale that can be scaled down.

[Sean Waters]

So it's better to build Movement Powers with Variable Advantage,instead of having Megascale that can be scaled down.

Well, it's better to build them in a multipower, probably: variable advantage costs more than a 2 slot MP with a combat and noncombat (megascale) movement. I think. :)

[Sean Waters]

You can't scale it down to less than a MegaScale value though, so the minimum you can have it is 1"=1km.

Pretty sure you can define the 1" as whatever you like: the 1km is just the maximum for that level of advantage - you can make it 1"=10m if you like. I could be wrong, I often am. :nonp:

[Hugh Neilson]

Pretty sure you can define the 1" as whatever you like: the 1km is just the maximum for that level of advantage - you can make it 1"=10m if you like. I could be wrong, I often am. :nonp:

You're correct, but you have to set it when you buy the power. That's why +1/4 variable advantage on flight is nice. It can be 1/2 END when I don;t need megascale, and 1" = 10", 100" or 1 KM as the need arises.

[Hyper-Man]

I see a Flash-esq character's megascale movement as having 3 relative components:

The movement itself.
The ability to avoid hitting obstacles in one's path.
The ability to look at and remember things he sees along his path (like finding a bomb hidden in a city).
An analogy can be made with the once popular game Tetris.

Movement translates to the speed at which the pieces fall.
In the game, you have to find the correct orientation and placement for each piece and plan ahead of time. Imagine if you could see higher into the area where new pieces fall from. It would give you more time to plan ahead in your strategy of orientation and placement.
How often do you remember the actual layout of pieces that you have cleared. Probably more so earlier in the game than in the later faster stages.
These translate to:

megascale movement.
megascale sense.
rapid sense.
Allowing rapid sense to let a speedster react to obstacles in his path at the rapid multiplier is functionally equivalent to also letting him use rapid sense to make an autofire punch attack or an AOE Change Environment. Nobody gives those abilities to a speedster for free so why this one?

Another reason to actually pay for such 'inconsequencial abilities' is that not all speedsters with megascale movement would necessarily have megascale perceptions to match. Does anyone remember the black female Captain Marvell (2) from the 80's Avengers? From a pure movement perspective, I would say she is as fast or faster than DC's Flash when in her energy form. She does not have the same superspeed perception that he has though. If you eliminate the need for all the little extra's like this you eliminate some of the important methods of differentiating abilities of 2 otherwise mechanically similar charaters.

HM

[Sean Waters]

I see a Flash-esq character's megascale movement as having 3 relative components:

The movement itself.
The ability to avoid hitting obstacles in one's path.
The ability to look at and remember things he sees along his path (like finding a bomb hidden in a city).
An analogy can be made with the once popular game Tetris.

Movement translates to the speed at which the pieces fall.
In the game, you have to find the correct orientation and placement for each piece and plan ahead of time. Imagine if you could see higher into the area where new pieces fall from. It would give you more time to plan ahead in your strategy of orientation and placement.
How often do you remember the actual layout of pieces that you have cleared. Probably more so earlier in the game than in the later faster stages.
These translate to:

megascale movement.
megascale sense.
rapid sense.



We disagree on number 2: you see it as megascale perception, and I see it as fast reactions. To take an example, if your perception is megascaled then you are scuppered if the obstacles are less than 1km apart. Rapid reaction is part of the movement power - so long as you are not trying to navigate a maze, you should be OK - it is a non-combat movement after all.

RE Captain Marvell, she could change into light, disappear and re-appear, so I'd have built that as teleport rather than running or flight. That would also explain why she couldn't perceive stuff along the way.

[Hyper-Man]

We disagree on number 2: you see it as megascale perception, and I see it as fast reactions. To take an example, if your perception is megascaled then you are scuppered if the obstacles are less than 1km apart. Rapid reaction is part of the movement power - so long as you are not trying to navigate a maze, you should be OK - it is a non-combat movement after all.

RE Captain Marvell, she could change into light, disappear and re-appear, so I'd have built that as teleport rather than running or flight. That would also explain why she couldn't perceive stuff along the way.

Flash CAN navigate a maze at near top speed. He HAS searched an entire city for a bomb at megascale only speeds. Captain Marvel can fly at less than lightspeed in her energy form (and does so quite often) so using the otherwise valid option of Teleport as a type of limitation on her speed of reactions while flying is a flawed argument.

HM

[Sean Waters]

Flash CAN navigate a maze at near top speed. He HAS searched an entire city for a bomb at megascale only speeds. Captain Marvel can fly at less than lightspeed in her energy form (and does so quite often) so using the otherwise valid option of Teleport as a type of limitation on her speed of reactions while flying is a flawed argument.

HM

1. Then he's not using non-combat movement, and so not using megascale. Searching would be some sort of rapid clairvoyance, only to see places you could get to at megascale velocity, but it isn't megascale move and search unless there's so much handwaving that we're about to have a hurricane.

2. Long distance will be mega-scale teleport, just hoverin' there will be normal flight linked to desolid. Or it is scaleable megascale flight linked to desolid WITHOUT the rapid senses, so she can't see what's around her when she's moving too fast.

I'm pretty sure they never thought Captain Marvell all the way through anyway...:)

[Hyper-Man]

1. Then he's not using non-combat movement, and so not using megascale. Searching would be some sort of rapid clairvoyance, only to see places you could get to at megascale velocity, but it isn't megascale move and search unless there's so much handwaving that we're about to have a hurricane.

2. Long distance will be mega-scale teleport, just hoverin' there will be normal flight linked to desolid.

I'm pretty sure they never thought Captain Marvell all the way through anyway...:)

A character can make A Half Move with Noncombat Movement (megascale or not makes no difference). See the last paragraph on page 363 of 5ER. It makes a reference to being able to attack at Noncombat speeds. If that is possible, making Half Moves and Half Phase searches at Noncombat Speeds certainly is as well. Clairsentience/Clairvoyance IS a crazy power to give someone like Flash since he actually has to physically be present and the definition of the power is one or more senses usable at range. What I presented is fully within the scope of rules presented in all current HERO books.

I am not arguing that you not use that as a valid house rule in your game. I am saying that within the scope of published material this is the easiest way to simulate the effects.

re: Captain Marvel:
That could be said of a great many comic characters but it is the source material for the genre.

HM

[Dust Raven]

You're correct, but you have to set it when you buy the power. That's why +1/4 variable advantage on flight is nice. It can be 1/2 END when I don;t need megascale, and 1" = 10", 100" or 1 KM as the need arises.

That is abusive and technically violates the rules for Variable Advantage. VA isn't a carte blanche to take any +1/4 (or whatever value you've bought) you like. You are limited by what the GM allows (and only if you have an extremely limited selection would you have a lessor Advantage, like if you could only have 2 or three Advantages with set values you could choose from). At least, I can't think of any GM that would allow someone with Variable Advantage to take MegaScale at any increment they feel like at the time.

[Dust Raven]

Flash CAN navigate a maze at near top speed. He HAS searched an entire city for a bomb at megascale only speeds. Captain Marvel can fly at less than lightspeed in her energy form (and does so quite often) so using the otherwise valid option of Teleport as a type of limitation on her speed of reactions while flying is a flawed argument.

HM

Just a minor pet peeve, but you are describing SFX in terms of game mechanics even though you have no idea what "game mechanics" the authors had in mind. Technically, no character can do what you describe the Flash doing at MegaScale speed. The fast he has would suggest he isn't using MegaScale Movement when he does that. Maybe he's using Clairsentience with Rapid Sense, maybe he has a lot more NonCombat multipliers then we are giving him credit for. Maybe he has a Multipower slot with a +6 Overall Skill Levels which he's just used to search the city two Time Chart levels quicker (wow, it'll take all week to search the entire city... but the Flash can do it in a few hours).

[prestidigitator]

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat? I don't recall that. I know you can't perform certain maneuvers, such as Move Through and Move By, with MegaScaled movement, but I didn't think it was technically considered Non-Combat. If it were, how could you ever engage in starship combat?

Whatever the case, your turn mode and acceleration is the same as the non-MegaScaled version of the movement, except that again hexes are treated as being the size of the MegaScaled hex. So, yes, you can maneuver around obstacles, though in a limited fashion.

I would view MegaScaled Sight as becoming more pixelated. It wouldn't be that you can't see anything within a kilometer of yourself (that would be like saying you can't normally see anything closer than one hex away), but that you can't distinguish features that are smaller than the smallest feature you could see normally, scaled up by the MegaScale factor (for example if you could normally distinguish a feature that has a radius of one millimeter when it is two meters--or one hex--away, then with your MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km Sight you generally can't distinguish anything that is smaller than 500 mm, or half a meter, in radius). That means you could certainly see enough to go around things with your MegaScaled movement. I would actually say that my vision starts to break up when things get closer than about 10 cm from my eyes, so it seems reasonable to say that a MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km version of Sight would start to have trouble distinguishing anything closer than about 50 m clearly.

[Sean Waters]

You're correct, but you have to set it when you buy the power. That's why +1/4 variable advantage on flight is nice. It can be 1/2 END when I don;t need megascale, and 1" = 10", 100" or 1 KM as the need arises.

...wouldn't you need a +1 advantage: +1/2 variable advantage? You need to buy megascale (at least +1/4) AND Can be scaled back (another +1/4)...

Hmm. Anyway, about searching cities:

No rules on how long it takes to search a hex: I'd say 1 phase. Assuming that Rapid sense allowed you to search more rapidly, then you'd be looking at 10 hexes per phase for one level, 100 for 2 etc...assuming you can half move and search you can search one area per phase.

Now assume that the city is quite small and has a radius of 1 km. Very small. That's a little over 3 million square metres or about 750 000 hexes.

Assuming that the average space in a city (i.e. the average area you can search in a single search attempt without being blocked by intervening objects) is, say a 10 metre radius, or about 75 hexes in one go, that means you can't really take advantage of rapid beyond the x100 level and it will take 10000 phases to search a city, and even at SPD 12 that's nearly 3 hours.

The movement doesn't enter into it: you're only covering about 200km in that time.

Double the radius of the city and multiply the search time by 4....and this is a really generous estimate: unless the bomb was huge the search would likely take far longer...

If you want to search a large area quickly you need a limited form of clairvoyance or an enhanced sense. The sfx can be that you actually go and look if you like, but it is the only way to do it in a reasonable time.

[Sean Waters]

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat? I don't recall that. I know you can't perform certain maneuvers, such as Move Through and Move By, with MegaScaled movement, but I didn't think it was technically considered Non-Combat. If it were, how could you ever engage in starship combat?

Whatever the case, your turn mode and acceleration is the same as the non-MegaScaled version of the movement, except that again hexes are treated as being the size of the MegaScaled hex. So, yes, you can maneuver around obstacles, though in a limited fashion.

I would view MegaScaled Sight as becoming more pixelated. It wouldn't be that you can't see anything within a kilometer of yourself (that would be like saying you can't normally see anything closer than one hex away), but that you can't distinguish features that are smaller than the smallest feature you could see normally, scaled up by the MegaScale factor (for example if you could normally distinguish a feature that has a radius of one millimeter when it is two meters--or one hex--away, then with your MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km Sight you generally can't distinguish anything that is smaller than 500 mm, or half a meter, in radius). That means you could certainly see enough to go around things with your MegaScaled movement. I would actually say that my vision starts to break up when things get closer than about 10 cm from my eyes, so it seems reasonable to say that a MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km version of Sight would start to have trouble distinguishing anything closer than about 50 m clearly.

Pretty sure. You can perform combat manoeuvres, it is just that you'll be at 0 OCV and you probably don't want to take even half the damage from a megascale move-through :)

As regards the megascale sight thing, the rules are that it doesn't work within its minimum range - so if you have 1" = 1km, you can't effectively see anything closer than 1km. Your analysis is a good one but forgets the Space Monkey Effect: a tiny movement translated over a great distance equals a large movement at the other end. This means that, if you are looking through a telescope, a small movement might bring the moon into focus: it is a huge object, but try and focus on something across the street and you'll find the telescope swings past the target several times before you can home in on it. You may be IN FACT able to focus on a brick in the house across the road, but if you move at all then it whizzes out of your viewfinder. It is not so much a problem of actually being able to see somethin but the ability to focus ON a particular object: you are not, in practice able to access your normal full field of vision when using magnification.

If you had all the time in the world then sure you can focus on stuff nearby: you just are not going to see it because your field of vision has become a tiny cone not a 120 degree arc anymore.

[Wanderer]

Well, it's better to build them in a multipower, probably: variable advantage costs more than a 2 slot MP with a combat and noncombat (megascale) movement. I think. :)

Nope, because then you cannot put the Movement Power (typically Flight) in a EC. Far better to use VA, such as:

Graviton-Manipulating Flight: Flight 20-25", Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages (Reduced Endurance, No Turn Mode, Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, Megascale); +3/4)

No need for clumsy MS Naked Advantages or setting up a Flight MP (or NCM, for that matter). VA for Flight is the by far better power construct to add megascale.

[Sean Waters]

Nope, because then you cannot put the Movement Power (typically Flight) in a EC. Far better to use VA, such as:

Graviton-Manipulating Flight: Flight 20-25", Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages (Reduced Endurance, No Turn Mode, Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, Megascale); +3/4)

No need for clumsy MS Naked Advantages or setting up a Flight MP (or NCM, for that matter). VA for Flight is the by far better power construct to add megascale.

You're not one of those people who bothers about AP limits are you? :D

[Wanderer]

You're not one of those people who bothers about AP limits are you? :D

Yep, but in my own private league default superheroing is Avengers/JLA/Authority, Daredevil is for sissies :nya: and AP limits hover at 80-120. A 20-25 Flight with a Variable Advantage (especially if limited) is fully within the range. :D

[Sean Waters]

Yep, but in my own private league default superheroing is Avengers/JLA/Authority, Daredevil is for sissies :nya: and AP limits hover at 80-120. A 20-25 Flight with a Variable Advantage (especially if limited) is fully within the range. :D

ECs being overused is another hobby-horse of mine :)

Even so a 3/4 advantage means that your maximum combat speed is less than .6 of the guy who doesn't take it: in the example you give 25" against up to 44" (a difference, on a movethrough, of 7 dice). Even if you stick it in a multipower of 74 points you get 25" against 37" = a difference of 4d6 on a move through - not to be neglected if opponents may have 40+ PD force fields...meanwhile in the other slot of the multipower, can fly anywhere between 10 times as fast and lightspeed....

Neither approach is 'right', but I'm not convinced that variable advantage is a particularly useful way of doing movement powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

That is abusive and technically violates the rules for Variable Advantage. VA isn't a carte blanche to take any +1/4 (or whatever value you've bought) you like. You are limited by what the GM allows (and only if you have an extremely limited selection would you have a lessor Advantage, like if you could only have 2 or three Advantages with set values you could choose from). At least, I can't think of any GM that would allow someone with Variable Advantage to take MegaScale at any increment they feel like at the time.

To clarify, I view this as the full +1/2 advantage on flight - he had +1/4 worth of advantages to choose form as a result. Your comments indicate you think I'm talking about the reduced advantage. How many advantages are practical on Flight at +1/4? Off the top, I see Megascale and 1/2 END. I believe the Turn Mode and Acceleration/Deceleration advantages require +1/2, but maybe there's something in there. Usable by another (instead of you) in theopry, but I'd deny it in practice since, by swapping the advantage, , you effectively have "usable by self or one other".

Given this limited selection, I don't see a big issue allowing the character to modulate their Megascale - especially since any Megascale flight means noncombat movement, so it's only likely to be used for rapid transit.

[Warp9]

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat? I don't recall that.

(From FREd page 170, 3rd paragraph down)

MegaMovement is considered Noncombat Movement even though the MegaScale effect applies only to the character's inches of Combat Movement.

[Warp9]

I don't think you can have no turn mode when mega-moving: it is always non-combat movement. Being able to change direction at will would mean that you could effectively have combat reactions. As far as I'm concerned, non-combat movement, including mega-movement, is basically in a straight line...with only minor course variations allowed.

The book very specifically details how that turn mode applies to flying in non-combat.

FREd page 240 and this is only listed under flight turn-mode:



As a simple rule, a character using Combat Movement cannot makre more than five evenly spaced turns during a move. If the character is moving at non-combat velocities, he can make no more than 2 evenly spaced turns.


So, if I am flying, with a turn mode, I can still make 2 evenly spaced turns. And I assume that I don't have to worry about this kind of thing at all if I have no turn mode.

Although, it is possible that I am missing something here, maybe you can reference a different quote from the book which show that turning is not allowed in any non-combat movement.

[Sean Waters]

The book very specifically details how that turn mode applies to flying in non-combat.

FREd page 240 and this is only listed under flight turn-mode:



So, if I am flying, with a turn mode, I can still make 2 evenly spaced turns. And I assume that I don't have to worry about this kind of thing at all if I have no turn mode.

Although, it is possible that I am missing something here, maybe you can reference a different quote from the book which show that turning is not allowed in any non-combat movement.

Well spotted: I didn't have the book with me. What I am pretty sure it does say under 'no turn mode' though is that it shouldn't generally be applied to personal modes of movement that do have a turn mode (i.e. flight). Megascale is already a STOP power and adding dodgy constructs on top of this rings alarm balls.

Whatever the rules say I would probably construe an attempt to make megascale movement completely manoeuvreable as an abusive construct, mind you that would depend on why you wanted it and what you planned to do with it. If it is completely manoeuvreable there's no good reason you should have half DCV and 0 OCV...

When moving non-combat I'd even be inclined to apply turn mode to running, which doesn't normally have it. If you don't have SOME sort of turn mode mechanism, then you can just make 3 consecutive 60 degree turns and instantly change direction, which is clearly an abuse of the acceleration/deceleration rules.

Even if your powers somehow justify being able to make 90 degree turns and stopping on a dime (Man, I just don't DO inertia...), you'd still have to be able to react in time: to get around an obstacle, e.g. navigating a maze at megascale or noncombat speed I'd want DEX rolls at every turn. You could use Area Knowledge as a secondary roll. It would certainly not be an automatic thing. Megamoving from Washington to Seattle, basically outdoors: fine. Maybe a navigation roll but you can see the objects in your way in plenty of time to move. Running through every room and corridor in a skyscraper at Mach 3? What's your DEX roll?

[Warp9]

Well spotted: I didn't have the book with me. What I am pretty sure it does say under 'no turn mode' though is that it shouldn't generally be applied to personal modes of movement that do have a turn mode (i.e. flight).

I find that statement a bit confusing. Why would you want to apply the advantage 'no turn mode' to a move power which already doesn't have one? It seems to me that such an advantage was made specifically for a case like flight.



Megascale is already a STOP power and adding dodgy constructs on top of this rings alarm balls.

Whatever the rules say I would probably construe an attempt to make megascale movement completely manoeuvreable as an abusive construct, mind you that would depend on why you wanted it and what you planned to do with it. If it is completely manoeuvreable there's no good reason you should have half DCV and 0 OCV...

When moving non-combat I'd even be inclined to apply turn mode to running, which doesn't normally have it. If you don't have SOME sort of turn mode mechanism, then you can just make 3 consecutive 60 degree turns and instantly change direction, which is clearly an abuse of the acceleration/deceleration rules.

Even if your powers somehow justify being able to make 90 degree turns and stopping on a dime (Man, I just don't DO inertia...), you'd still have to be able to react in time: to get around an obstacle, e.g. navigating a maze at megascale or noncombat speed I'd want DEX rolls at every turn. You could use Area Knowledge as a secondary roll. It would certainly not be an automatic thing. Megamoving from Washington to Seattle, basically outdoors: fine. Maybe a navigation roll but you can see the objects in your way in plenty of time to move. Running through every room and corridor in a skyscraper at Mach 3? What's your DEX roll?

I have NEVER been a fan of Mega-Scale. (I'd be for getting rid of it)

Mechanics already exist for increasing movement, and if they are too expensive, then they should just be made cheaper.

As for the rest of it, if your flight lets you manuver with total control at a given speed, I disagree with making you take DEX rolls to navigate, or rolls to see if you can breath at that velocity.

If you are going to go in that direction (looking at logical side-effects of powers), then where do you stop? I can think of many other situations where I could enforce side-effects on characters. Maybe high STR characters should have to make rolls all the time to see if they can control their vast STR to avoid breaking all the normal objects in their pathways.

To my mind, HERO is an effect based game. There is nothing in HERO that will stop you from have a 999d6 attack defined as trowing cream pies. The act of enforcing realism comes from the GM and Players.

Basically, if you want characters to be limited while moving at high speeds (beyond what the rules strictly say), I'd suggest taking limitations or disadvantages to reflect those problems.

[Hyper-Man]

I have NEVER been a fan of Mega-Scale. (I'd be for getting rid of it)

Mechanics already exist for increasing movement, and if they are too expensive, then they should just be made cheaper.

I agree with you on just about everything else. And you are perfectly justified in not liking the advantage. However, if you just make normal non combat multipliers cheaper (like +X2 for 2 points that was suggested earlier) you run the risk of letting non-speedsters encroach on the speedster schtick too easily from a points perspective.

HM

[Sean Waters]

I find that statement a bit confusing. Why would you want to apply the advantage 'no turn mode' to a move power which already doesn't have one? It seems to me that such an advantage was made specifically for a case like flight.

Well, you wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure that's what it says in the book.



I have NEVER been a fan of Mega-Scale. (I'd be for getting rid of it)

Mechanics already exist for increasing movement, and if they are too expensive, then they should just be made cheaper.

As for the rest of it, if your flight lets you manuver with total control at a given speed, I disagree with making you take DEX rolls to navigate, or rolls to see if you can breath at that velocity.

If you are going to go in that direction (looking at logical side-effects of powers), then where do you stop? I can think of many other situations where I could enforce side-effects on characters. Maybe high STR characters should have to make rolls all the time to see if they can control their vast STR to avoid breaking all the normal objects in their pathways.

To my mind, HERO is an effect based game. There is nothing in HERO that will stop you from have a 999d6 attack defined as trowing cream pies. The act of enforcing realism comes from the GM and Players.

Basically, if you want characters to be limited while moving at high speeds (beyond what the rules strictly say), I'd suggest taking limitations or disadvantages to reflect those problems.

My objection here is that, if you have 'incredibly fast non-combat flight, however it might have been built' and you've got away with no turn mode or acceleration/deceleration, I'd have no problem with you zipping from here to the wall at the end of the corridor and back at something like light speed.

If you want to navigate an area that you don't know, however, I think you need to take it more carefully. Ever run in a building, gone round a corner and bumped into someone? I have. I was going non-combat, I noticed them - but it was too late to stop. Flying or running at ludicrous speeds would have similar problems: you could run along corridors, you could turn corners BUT if what you found round there was not what you were expecting (another long straight corridor, probably...) you'll need a DEX roll to react.

Just from a 'where's the sense in the design' POV, if you can avoid things with relative relativistic velocities, you should be playing an utterly unhittable character.

This is, of course, my take on it. What you do in games you play in is fine. The real test theough, in my mind, is 'Why do you want to be able to do that'?

If the answer is so that I can run round the entire building in one phase and back and know where everything is...well, I'd say you're letting sfx over-ride the build. You obviously want some sort of limited N-Ray vision or somesuch.

[prestidigitator]

Well, you wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure that's what it says in the book.

My objection here is that, if you have 'incredibly fast non-combat flight, however it might have been built' and you've got away with no turn mode or acceleration/deceleration, I'd have no problem with you zipping from here to the wall at the end of the corridor and back at something like light speed.
It may have been added in 5ER, but in 5E there was no Advantage that removed the Turn Mode of a Movement Power that normally has one (although there is the opposite: giving a Movement Power a Turn Mode when it doesn't normally have one). Instead, you use Movement Skill Levels to give you a better Turn Mode.

BTW, Running does gain a Turn Mode when you use it Non-Combat. I am absolutely positive of that, though I can't site a page number ATM.

[prestidigitator]

As regards the megascale sight thing, the rules are that it doesn't work within its minimum range - so if you have 1" = 1km, you can't effectively see anything closer than 1km. Your analysis is a good one but forgets the Space Monkey Effect: a tiny movement translated over a great distance equals a large movement at the other end. This means that, if you are looking through a telescope, a small movement might bring the moon into focus: it is a huge object, but try and focus on something across the street and you'll find the telescope swings past the target several times before you can home in on it. You may be IN FACT able to focus on a brick in the house across the road, but if you move at all then it whizzes out of your viewfinder. It is not so much a problem of actually being able to see somethin but the ability to focus ON a particular object: you are not, in practice able to access your normal full field of vision when using magnification.

If you had all the time in the world then sure you can focus on stuff nearby: you just are not going to see it because your field of vision has become a tiny cone not a 120 degree arc anymore.
I have forgotten nothing at all. Who says that MegaScale gives you a decreased angle of perception? That sounds like a Side Effect of magnifying devices to me. Telescopic, for example, just cancels Range Penalties to a sense; it doesn't give you any kind of game drawbacks due to a decreased view angle.

I'm not sure treating MegaScaled senses exactly like other MegaScaled range is entirely right. Senses just don't act like normal ranged Attack Powers. For one thing, you can sense lots of stuff at once, not just something in one hex at a time. I would be more inclined to treat Sight, for example, as something closer to a Conical Explosion than a normal ranged Power.

[Warp9]

BTW, Running does gain a Turn Mode when you use it Non-Combat. I am absolutely positive of that, though I can't site a page number ATM.
Once you get a place where you have access to the Book I'd like a page number on that. . . .

on edit: I'm not saying that it does not make sense, I just can't find it (I don't have revised so it may be in there). I'd also like to know if it follows the exact pattern as non-combat flight (2 evenly spaced turns per move). It seems that if running is more manuverable than flight in combat, it should also be more manuverable than flight out of combat as well.

[OddHat]

I agree with you on just about everything else. And you are perfectly justified in not liking the advantage. However, if you just make normal non combat multipliers cheaper (like +X2 for 2 points that was suggested earlier) you run the risk of letting non-speedsters encroach on the speedster schtick too easily from a points perspective.

HM

You can always protect your Speedster's schtick by saying "Only one character can have Super-Speed related powers (including Time Manipulation Frank, so sit down). As far as movement is concerned, that means only the speedster gets to buy over X" of combat movement, and only that character can have over X" of non-combat movement." This is pretty much what I do in my FtF games.

I generally don't see point costs as a way to keep schtick's separate. With the number of build approaches available to get almost any power cheaply, it's easier to just make a campaign decision that every character gets to shine in his own schtick.

[prestidigitator]

Once you get a place where you have access to the Book I'd like a page number on that. . . .

on edit: I'm not saying that it does not make sense, I just can't find it (I don't have revised so it may be in there). I'd also like to know if it follows the exact pattern as non-combat flight (2 evenly spaced turns per move). It seems that if running is more manuverable than flight in combat, it should also be more manuverable than flight out of combat as well.
I don't have 5ER either. I know it's in 5E somewhere. I'll take a look when I can. I believe the answer to whether it is more maneuverable than any other Movement Power with a Turn Mode at Non-Combat Velocity is, "no." From what I recall, Running just, "gains a Turn Mode," at Non-Combat Velocity, and is treated from that point as any movement with a Turn Mode.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't have 5ER either. I know it's in 5E somewhere. I'll take a look when I can. I believe the answer to whether it is more maneuverable than any other Movement Power with a Turn Mode at Non-Combat Velocity is, "no." From what I recall, Running just, "gains a Turn Mode," at Non-Combat Velocity, and is treated from that point as any movement with a Turn Mode.

The relevant pages are:
5E pages 237-240
5ER pages 363-367

As far as I can tell, no wording was changed between 5E and 5ER here.

Turn Modes are only referenced for "Powered Movement" which includes Flight, Gliding, Swinging, Teleportatioin and Tunneling. The only mention of Turn Modes for Running is in reference to the "GM may require it if the footing is especially treacherous".

That sounds like a judgement call, not a hard and fast rule.

Under the section for Noncombat Movement it states that "a character using Noncombat Movement can still fight, but at the lowered (OCV+DCV) values." NO mention of turn modes is made here either.

HM

[Dust Raven]

To clarify, I view this as the full +1/2 advantage on flight - he had +1/4 worth of advantages to choose form as a result. Your comments indicate you think I'm talking about the reduced advantage. How many advantages are practical on Flight at +1/4? Off the top, I see Megascale and 1/2 END. I believe the Turn Mode and Acceleration/Deceleration advantages require +1/2, but maybe there's something in there. Usable by another (instead of you) in theopry, but I'd deny it in practice since, by swapping the advantage, , you effectively have "usable by self or one other".

Given this limited selection, I don't see a big issue allowing the character to modulate their Megascale - especially since any Megascale flight means noncombat movement, so it's only likely to be used for rapid transit.

Given that you are using all of the advantage available to you, you shouldn't get a bonus for having so few. But you didn't, nor did I assume you did. I still think it's pure cheese to allow any incriment of MegaScale. I might allow it if all you could take was MegaScale, and bought the Advantage at the full +1/2 value for a variable +1/4. You get a lot of flexibility for that +1/4 for any incriment of MegaScale.

[Dust Raven]

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat?
5E page 170.

[Dust Raven]

(From FREd page 170, 3rd paragraph down)

MegaMovement is considered Noncombat Movement even though the MegaScale effect applies only to the character's inches of Combat Movement.

Tee-hee.. never mind :).

[Dust Raven]

BTW, Running does gain a Turn Mode when you use it Non-Combat. I am absolutely positive of that, though I can't site a page number ATM.

I'm fairly certain Running has no Turn Mode when non-combat. You have just as much freedom as you do in combat.

Of course, when you go to MegaScale, there the illusion of a Turn Mode. When you can change direction in any hex, you are still moving a few km over to turn around. Granted, you could technically turn around in the same hex (which is a km wide) and run back the way you came.

The thing I like to keep into account is rules for obsticles. Anythig that in your hex can be an obsticle. How much of the hex it covers and how tall it is compared to the character determine how much of an obsticle. If you are approaching a clif with a 6m (3 hex) fissure running through it, and you want to run straight through and continue on the other side... all you got to do is miss the cliff. If you are moving MegaScale, your hex is approximately 1km (an estimate, since you can have a higher level of megascale, or define the hex as being less than 1 km). There are 500 hexes in a km, and you are aiming for an area of 3 of them. What do you think your chances of success are?

What powers/senses do you think you'll need to improve those chances?

[prestidigitator]

I'm fairly certain Running has no Turn Mode when non-combat. You have just as much freedom as you do in combat.
I'm gonig to dig through my book this evening. I could have sworn it had a Turn Mode for Non-Combat in 4th Edition at least. Has it changed, perhaps?

[Hyper-Man]

I'm fairly certain Running has no Turn Mode when non-combat. You have just as much freedom as you do in combat.

Of course, when you go to MegaScale, there the illusion of a Turn Mode. When you can change direction in any hex, you are still moving a few km over to turn around. Granted, you could technically turn around in the same hex (which is a km wide) and run back the way you came.

The thing I like to keep into account is rules for obsticles. Anythig that in your hex can be an obsticle. How much of the hex it covers and how tall it is compared to the character determine how much of an obsticle. If you are approaching a clif with a 6m (3 hex) fissure running through it, and you want to run straight through and continue on the other side... all you got to do is miss the cliff. If you are moving MegaScale, your hex is approximately 1km (an estimate, since you can have a higher level of megascale, or define the hex as being less than 1 km). There are 500 hexes in a km, and you are aiming for an area of 3 of them. What do you think your chances of success are?

What powers/senses do you think you'll need to improve those chances?

I used to make this mistake as well.

The rules for running state: "Running has no Turn Mode; a character can turn as often as he wants when Running."

If adding Megascale to Running does not give it a Turn Mode (and nothing I have found suggests this), then nothing changes with regard to how many turns a Running character can make.

I agree that a character using Flight with Megascale would be taking 1km or larger turns unless the Flight also had No Turn Mode as an advantage in which case the character would have no restrictions on number of turns just as Running.

The ONLY limiting factor imposed by the Power Advantage Megascale is the minimum effect of what 1" actually means (usually 1km). In the case of movement it means that a character with Megascale movement will move a minimum of 500" when he uses that power.

Because of that I would encourage players that want speedsters with megascale level movement to buy a multipower with a minimum of 2 slots:

Megascale Movement.
Combat Movement with Increased doublings for normal Non-Combat Movement >/= 500"*.

5" movement with an additional +X64 Non Combat multiple (5x128=640 which is > 500*).
20" movement with an addtional +X16 Non Combat multiple (20x32=640...*).

Three distinct slots is preferrable if the player wants to maximize their combat only movement but it is not necessary.


HM

[Wanderer]

ECs being overused is another hobby-horse of mine :)

Even so a 3/4 advantage means that your maximum combat speed is less than .6 of the guy who doesn't take it: in the example you give 25" against up to 44" (a difference, on a movethrough, of 7 dice). Even if you stick it in a multipower of 74 points you get 25" against 37" = a difference of 4d6 on a move through - not to be neglected if opponents may have 40+ PD force fields...meanwhile in the other slot of the multipower, can fly anywhere between 10 times as fast and lightspeed....

Neither approach is 'right', but I'm not convinced that variable advantage is a particularly useful way of doing movement powers.

Your reasoning has merit, as it has mine. Generalizing just a bit, we might say that VA Megascale may be the best choice for "planetary" Megascale Flight (up to a couple levels of the Advantage), whereas MP slot Megascale may be most appropriate for higher levels: in most cases, VA is only really manageable up to +1/2 Advantages.

Or one might combine both approaches: interplanetary/interstellar Megascale Flight/Teleportation, like FTL and EDM, only really fined use in play as "gimmick" (I can instantly move from my cool Moon/Mars/Titan base to wherver I'm needed) or "plot hook" (this week's menace comes from XXV° Dimension/Eta Carinae III, so there we go), not as a mix of "combat" and "plot hook" uses like planetary Megascale. So one might have "planetary" Megascale in a Variable Advantage Flight ("I can go round the Earth in 10 minutes") and "interstellar" one in a separate MP, perhaps loaded with some Limitations: typically, Focus:"my stellar Ring lets me teleport anywhere in the Galaxy", such as:

Cosmic Travel Armbands: Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); all slots Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

1) FTL Flight: FTL Travel (2 Light Years/minute) (50 Active Points); Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

2) Dimensional Movement: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Any Dimension, Any Location) (45 Active Points); Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

3) Teleportation: Teleportation 4", No Relative Velocity, MegaScale (1" = 100.000 km; +1 1/2), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (49 Active Points); Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

As for getting more dice of Flight for move through, yes in that case a Flight MP is more efficient: it lies down to what one cares more about, saving a bit from putting Flight in a EC, in which case VA gets unvaluable for keeping some tactical flexibility for the power, such as switching from "energy saving" (reduced End) mode, to "flying saucer" hypermobility (No Turn Mode/Combat Acceleration/Deceleration) to "intercontinental" (Megascale), and/or maybe All-terrain (Usable Underwater). If one cares more about getting the maximum movethrough oomph, then the above become MP slots, and then one can add an "interplanetary" (higher level Megascale) or even "interstellar" (FTL or really-Megascale Teleportation, though the latter is troublesome because of AP limits) modes.

And come on, Flight in a EC is plain vanilla: if one cannot dump one's Flight and Force Field in it, what an EC is good for ? ;)

[Dust Raven]

I was just thinking, and wasn't there a Power called Supersonic Flight that cost 10 points per level of mach speed (or each increment of 750 MPH) you could fly? I remember seeing somthing like that back when Metacreator/Hero Creator was used as the character creation software for the Hero System. What happened to that and why couldn't something like that be used for simulating those really fast characters when they aren't actually doing anything that relates to combat (as in, they are just moving really fast)?

I suppose we still need MegaScale for things like MegaArea and MegaRange, so we might as well have MegaMovement, but does anyone use something like Supersonic Flight/Movement in 5th edition?

[Southern Cross]

Supersonic Flight originally came from Fuzion,so I'm not suprised it wasn't included in Fifth Edition.

[lemming]

I was just thinking, and wasn't there a Power called Supersonic Flight that cost 10 points per level of mach speed (or each increment of 750 MPH) you could fly? I remember seeing somthing like that back when Metacreator/Hero Creator was used as the character creation software for the Hero System. What happened to that and why couldn't something like that be used for simulating those really fast characters when they aren't actually doing anything that relates to combat (as in, they are just moving really fast)?

I suppose we still need MegaScale for things like MegaArea and MegaRange, so we might as well have MegaMovement, but does anyone use something like Supersonic Flight/Movement in 5th edition?
That was done in Metacreator in anticipation of what 5th Edition would look like under the old management. At least that's how I remember it.

I think the current advantage works fine, but I could see someone costing it out as a "new" power.

[shadowcat1313]

I like to interpret this more as "you're unable to do more than see obstacles in time to avoid them", so you don't recognize your Aunt Petunia in Los Angeles as you pass through at 18,000 kph.



COnsidering Megascale on my sight is only +1/4 (add for higher megascale advantages) I'm inclined to agree. Mind you, you could Link your Telescopic with theMovement (-1/2) and limit it to "Only allows avoiding obstacles" (say -1) which gets it down to 18 points.

Mind you, tjose limitations cold logically also apply to the naked modifier.

I'm inclined to see this as to much realism, however. We don't make the guy who flies at 10,000 kph buy "LS: Immune to Frisction and Air Pressure", so why should he have to pay for the ability to avoid obstacles in flight? Seems to me powers should come with enough ability that they can be used functionally.

depends on the sense etc
most of my modern/sf vehicles have whats amount to terrain following radar for just that purpose

[prestidigitator]

Okay. I guess I was just totally delusional or something. I went through both my 4th and 5th ed. books pretty thoroughly, and could find nothing about Running acquiring a Turn Mode when used at Non-Combat Velocities. :stupid: Maybe I just decided in three seconds that it would be a definite House Rule of mine when I read through at some point.

P.S.: Posted a couple questions to Steve Long so that maybe I can get a little closure. :)

[zornwil]

Or we could resist the urge to pointlesly stat out every frickin' in-genre or SFX linked "that's just how it works" ability.

So, how do you build a box of tissues in Hero?
I'm surprised the boards didn't shut down, isn't that like when Captain Kirk tells a computer to compute pi to the last digit? :D

[prestidigitator]

I'm surprised the boards didn't shut down, isn't that like when Captain Kirk tells a computer to compute pi to the last digit? :D
No. Computers are workhorses by design. We, on the other hand, tend to be lazy beyond belief (though I have been somewhat surprised of late). :)

[pinecone]

Box of kleenex....LS:Snot and related problems, CBM, Fuel charge of aroud a 100 "incidents"......Plus change enviro:clean up small area:Long lasting.......maybe a multi power?....I also posted a thread about mega sight and mega move....was it after this one 'cause I don't remember seeing this one before.....

[zornwil]

Box of kleenex....LS:Snot and related problems, CBM, Fuel charge of aroud a 100 "incidents"......Plus change enviro:clean up small area:Long lasting.......maybe a multi power?....I also posted a thread about mega sight and mega move....was it after this one 'cause I don't remember seeing this one before.....
What if you use it to wrap something in? Or what if you use it to make a note? Or what if you...

...here lies INSANITY!!!! Don't give me your hand-waving and VPP tactics!

[pinecone]

What if you use it to wrap something in? Or what if you use it to make a note? Or what if you...

...here lies INSANITY!!!! Don't give me your hand-waving and VPP tactics!
OK ...it's a Biiig multi power....:)

[C--]

A few comments:

1) If I have 10" megascaled movement, 1"=1km, I can move any distance I choose beyond 500 hexes. I can move 501. I can move 4,978. I can move 3,391. I must simply move one complete mega-hex. Beyond that, I have perfect control. Since I've "scaled up" the size of the hexes, I can end my movement at any point inside any of the hexes past the first. So, I travel 10 megahexes forward. My final destination point is 4987 hexes forward and 145 to the side. As long as I stay within the megahexes, I can move around as much as I desire. I can zig-zag, I can hopscotch, I can twirl and dance, I can even moonwalk. The only important thing is that I began in megahex A and ended in megahex B. Which exact regular hexes I passed through are not important.

2) Megasenses do not work. You cannot operate at distances less than one megahex. Thus, you cannot perceive anything at a distance less than one level of megascale. There is nothing within the rules which magically grants megasenses that ability. Rapid-sense is closer to what you want, though it still doesn't matter, since with mega-movement I merely begin in mega-hex A and end in mega-hex B. Nothing within the rules states that I need to buy anything to avoid objects.

3) The purpose of megascale is to get places quickly. It is inexpensive because it's a plot-device power. If there's a bomb in Tokyo, and you've got to defuse it in 6 minutes, either you can get there, or you can't. If the GM is running a game where the players can't fly and have no super-movement, then his plot about the Tokyo bomb just won't work.

GM: "Okay, Spider-Man, you failed to stop the bomb from exploding in Tokyo."
Player: "But... I don't even speak Japanese. I never even heard about the bomb. And I can't fly. I just swing around on buildings."
GM: "Well, you should feel bad. Those people were counting on you."
Player: (looks around, finds shovel) KRANG! "You don't get to run the game anymore, cockbite!"

Megascale movement is costed so that players can make it to distant locations quickly. If you don't allow megascale movement, the only thing that will happen is that your players don't go to far off lands.

4) If I want to properly simulate The Flash, I buy the base unit of megascale as 1"=50". I then give him lots levels of megascale (1"=10k km or so) and the scaleable megascaled advantage. That lets him use his megascale at a fairly low level to do things like Dive for Cover out of friggin' huge AE attacks.

[Southern Cross]

I agree with the statement that megascaled senses don't work,not just in game terms but also in genre terms,as whenever characters are shown moving at superspeed,the SFX is that of having bought Rapid Senses for the Sight and Hearing Sense Groups.

[shadowcat1313]

I guess I am missing something here, isnt this what buying megascale senses that can be scaled down is for?

for things like long range sensor arrays and such?

[Hyper-Man]

I agree with the statement that megascaled senses don't work,not just in game terms but also in genre terms,as whenever characters are shown moving at superspeed,the SFX is that of having bought Rapid Senses for the Sight and Hearing Sense Groups.

Your definition of Rapid Sense is then giving it the defacto ability of Rapid REACTION which under current rules is covered by the SPEED characteristic. Also, If Rapid Sense is the way to go why are fighter pilots screened for distance vision above all else?

Requiring Megascaled Senses for the purposes of seeing when moving at Megascaled speeds is no more of a rule breaker than the current Healing and Regeneration (with no body cap) rules. Some people argue that rule too but it's still an 'official' rule. Use of Megasenses also keeps characters from buying an extreme amount of Megascale movement in an otherwise cheap Multipower slot unless they have an appropriate Megascale Sense outside of the Multipower.

HM

[zornwil]

I've always viewed powers as reasonably self-contained to execute effectively, and given that one buys an effect and not the SFX I tend to feel the system supports that model. Hence I think requiring a megascaled sense for a character to simply do megascaled movement is wrong. As stated above, for the character to see details while moving or far out in general should indeed require a megascaled sense, but forcing another power to execute the effect of a power is something I think we should mostly be staying away from in the game.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I've always viewed powers as reasonably self-contained to execute effectively, and given that one buys an effect and not the SFX I tend to feel the system supports that model. Hence I think requiring a megascaled sense for a character to simply do megascaled movement is wrong. As stated above, for the character to see details while moving or far out in general should indeed require a megascaled sense, but forcing another power to execute the effect of a power is something I think we should mostly be staying away from in the game.
I completely agree, and have decided that this is how I'm gonna handle this, at least with basic (read as not Limited) Megascale movement.

[Hyper-Man]

I've always viewed powers as reasonably self-contained to execute effectively, and given that one buys an effect and not the SFX I tend to feel the system supports that model. Hence I think requiring a megascaled sense for a character to simply do megascaled movement is wrong. As stated above, for the character to see details while moving or far out in general should indeed require a megascaled sense, but forcing another power to execute the effect of a power is something I think we should mostly be staying away from in the game.Let me clarify my view a little more.

If a player just wants their character to have the ability to reach supersonic+ speeds via flight but not necessarily have super manueverability at such speeds (think someone like Green Lantern) I would not absolutely require Megascale sight. I would point out the hazards of moving at such speeds would be equivalent to overdriving your headlights* and suggest they take this into consideration (Green Lantern's ring might alternatively provide a limited proximity Danger Sense and/or Desolidification in some versions). I would also point out the dangers of 'flying-blind' in combination with a disadvantage like Unluck.

But, if a player wants a genre-classic Flash/Quicksilver speedster with the ability to use near supersonic or greater speeds in a somewhat confined environment (the ground and all it's obsticals) I would require they stat out some way to deal with obstacles in their foot-path (which would be many).

*Overdriving headlights means your stopping distance is greater than the distance lighted by your lights.

HM

[C--]

But, if a player wants a genre-classic Flash/Quicksilver speedster with the ability to use near supersonic or greater speeds in a somewhat confined environment (the ground and all it's obsticals) I would require they stat out some way to deal with obstacles in their foot-path (which would be many).

*Overdriving headlights means your stopping distance is greater than the distance lighted by your lights.

HM

Let me clarify my view. You're adding restrictions that aren't in the game rules. If I buy movement, there's nothing at all in the rules that says I have to buy anything else to let me move. That's covered by buying movement at 2 points per inch. You're paying points for usefulness here, not a specific power. I don't have to buy Armor to protect me when I fly through the air, because friction isn't taken into account according to the game rules.

Megascaled senses don't work. They don't do what you seem to think they do. It's like the retarded USPD writeup of a safe teleport, where they bought Armor, only to protect against blind teleport damage. It's like, "oh, that's nice, except that a blind teleport is NND damage, and no amount of armor will protect you at all". It's like buying a 20D6 Energy Blast, "only to make flowers grow". Energy Blast doesn't do that, no matter how many power modifiers you put on it. I can apply megascale to Desolidification, but it isn't gonna do anything. Neither will putting megascale on your senses.

I think you're adding restrictions and complications to megascaled movement that do not exist according to the rules, and you're doing it solely to increase the costs of something that is really just a plot-device/utility power. This serves no purpose except to make something more expensive than it needs to be. Plus, the "solution" you offer does not function as you think it does.

[C--]

Your definition of Rapid Sense is then giving it the defacto ability of Rapid REACTION which under current rules is covered by the SPEED characteristic. Also, If Rapid Sense is the way to go why are fighter pilots screened for distance vision above all else?

Rapid senses serves no purpose in 5th edition. I understand the concept, but there is no game purpose for buying them.

Fighter pilots are screened for distance vision because they need to be able to visually identify markings on enemy (and friendly) aircraft. They don't have to react at superspeed.


Requiring Megascaled Senses for the purposes of seeing when moving at Megascaled speeds is no more of a rule breaker than the current Healing and Regeneration (with no body cap) rules. Some people argue that rule too but it's still an 'official' rule. Use of Megasenses also keeps characters from buying an extreme amount of Megascale movement in an otherwise cheap Multipower slot unless they have an appropriate Megascale Sense outside of the Multipower.

HM

Megascaled senses are not an official power construct like Healing and Regeneration. You're basically saying "that power isn't legal either".

[Bloodstone]

Megascaled senses are not an official power construct like Healing and Regeneration.

Actually, they are now.

5er, p264 "Percieving where you're going"

Mind you, I still favor handwaiving it.

[C--]

Actually, they are now.

5er, p264 "Percieving where you're going"

Mind you, I still favor handwaiving it.

Eh. I don't have revised. And I should have been more precise anyway--they're official, but everything I've seen on them is only for long-range sensors (i.e., "Keptin, de enemy wessel is approachink.")

[Bloodstone]

Eh. I don't have revised. And I should have been more precise anyway--they're official, but everything I've seen on them is only for long-range sensors (i.e., "Keptin, de enemy wessel is approachink.")

Ah. Well let me clarify that in 5er the example they use is of Kinetik needing this because his Overdrive Running (Written up as MegaScaled Flight with "Only in Contact with a Surface).

So while you can use MegaSenses for a Star Ships long range senseors, the party line is that Speedsters need this sort of thing too, least they end up killing them selves via involuntary Move Through on random Buildings of Opportuinity...

[C--]

Ah. Well let me clarify that in 5er the example they use is of Kinetik needing this because his Overdrive Running (Written up as MegaScaled Flight with "Only in Contact with a Surface).

So while you can use MegaSenses for a Star Ships long range senseors, the party line is that Speedsters need this sort of thing too, least they end up killing them selves via involuntary Move Through on random Buildings of Opportuinity...

Yeah, well, the party line sucks. :) And the power still doesn't work that way.

[prestidigitator]

I think you're adding restrictions and complications to megascaled movement that do not exist according to the rules, and you're doing it solely to increase the costs of something that is really just a plot-device/utility power. This serves no purpose except to make something more expensive than it needs to be. Plus, the "solution" you offer does not function as you think it does.
I believe in 5E they mention somewhere that you'd better be careful about using MegaMovement if you don't have the appropriate MegaSenses. Also they say something about the wisdom of using MegaScaled Flight too close to the ground....

[prestidigitator]

Rapid senses serves no purpose in 5th edition. I understand the concept, but there is no game purpose for buying them.
They might not serve any purpose in this context, but they can certainly serve a purpose. For example: speed-reading through a dictionary to learn a new language; going through a phonebook to find who has the number you just found scribbled on a bathroom stall (without a reverse directory); listening to an audio tape of ten days worth of phone calls played back at 1000 times normal speed to find the conversation you are interested in. They aren't uses that will crop up all the time, but they can be used creatively to great avail.

[pinecone]

One more thing in 5er is that for every "level" of differance between your mega sense and your mega-move you take a -1 per/level so my Daximite Galactic Champs character has Flight 5" Scalable,REnd,+4 Megascale move and bought Megascale for sight and +15 Sight, only for mega-navigating -1/2 and it's only 25 points to see where I'm going, and I can spot stuff in orbit just fine...its weaselly but they drove me to it!...:) so I'd consider taking -1 Per for "basic" mega-running to be fine...."I'm mega-running!" "OK, make a Per roll each phase to avoid becomming road kill.."

[C--]

They might not serve any purpose in this context, but they can certainly serve a purpose. For example: speed-reading through a dictionary to learn a new language; going through a phonebook to find who has the number you just found scribbled on a bathroom stall (without a reverse directory); listening to an audio tape of ten days worth of phone calls played back at 1000 times normal speed to find the conversation you are interested in. They aren't uses that will crop up all the time, but they can be used creatively to great avail.

Yes, but the game defines no base level of sense input. How fast can you read through the phone book without rapid sense? These are all extremely subjective. Hence, I'm not a huge fan of rapid sense.

[C--]

One more thing in 5er is that for every "level" of differance between your mega sense and your mega-move you take a -1 per/level so my Daximite Galactic Champs character has Flight 5" Scalable,REnd,+4 Megascale move and bought Megascale for sight and +15 Sight, only for mega-navigating -1/2 and it's only 25 points to see where I'm going, and I can spot stuff in orbit just fine...its weaselly but they drove me to it!...:) so I'd consider taking -1 Per for "basic" mega-running to be fine...."I'm mega-running!" "OK, make a Per roll each phase to avoid becomming road kill.."

It's still forcing you to pay points for something you should be able to do anyway. Steve Long in action!

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes, but the game defines no base level of sense input. How fast can you read through the phone book without rapid sense? These are all extremely subjective. Hence, I'm not a huge fan of rapid sense.

How much does speed reading cost? A character with this and eidetic memory is, as I recall able to memorize "as fast as he can turn the pages"

[Bloodstone]

How much does speed reading cost?

4pts for X10 (base level), +2 per x10 beyond that.

[prestidigitator]

How much does speed reading cost? A character with this and eidetic memory is, as I recall able to memorize "as fast as he can turn the pages"
No. Eidetic Memory simply allows you to recall perfectly something you are able to study and memorize. It still may take you some time to actually commit it to memory.

[prestidigitator]

Yes, but the game defines no base level of sense input. How fast can you read through the phone book without rapid sense? These are all extremely subjective. Hence, I'm not a huge fan of rapid sense.
While the actual length of time is subjective, we are talking about orders of magnitude here. Would you say it takes minutes, tens of seconds, seconds, or tenths of seconds to read a page of a phonebook? It may depend on what you are looking for, whether the number has a common prefix, etc., but why not try it? Open up a phonebook yourself. Differences in speed between normal individuals could be in the neighborhood of 50-100%, but they aren't going to be near 1000%, which is what Rapid senses give you. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

No. Eidetic Memory simply allows you to recall perfectly something you are able to study and memorize. It still may take you some time to actually commit it to memory.

My statement was taken directly from a rules book, though likely pre-5e. Eidetic meory + speed reading was explicitly defined to mean you can memorize as fast as you can turn the pages.

The classic photographic memory remembers everything, and does not require study time, BTW. Seems to me it would have its good and bad features (great when studying history, for example, but lousy when you'd like to ejoy re-reading a novel or watching a favorite movie again).

[Vondy]

I'm really wary of mega-scale as written. Not because it can be abused (Nancy Reagan is my Gamemastering role model when people try to abuse the rules), but because, as written, it leads to wonky constructs and has a number of mechanical safeguards built in that lead to logical inconsistencies and threads like this. As a result, I've pretty much stolen the FUSION rule for supersonic flight. 10 Points = 1 Mach. I'm considering making it an adder to normal flight (Supersonic Mode: +5 or +10 Points Per Mach). I like the idea of recuding non-combat doublings as well.

[Vondy]

The classic photographic memory remembers everything, and does not require study time, BTW. Seems to me it would have its good and bad features (great when studying history, for example, but lousy when you'd like to ejoy re-reading a novel or watching a favorite movie again).

People with classic photographic memory have regularly exibited difficulty unlearning bad information, or reconciling it with newly-learned good information, and are often routine or "normalcy" dependent.

[Hugh Neilson]

People with classic photographic memory have regularly exibited difficulty unlearning bad information, or reconciling it with newly-learned good information, and are often routine or "normalcy" dependent.

I'm certainly no expert on photgraphic memory, but this would seem to be a logical result. You can remember book A which says "This is black" and Book B which says "This is white", but with no actual experience, you don't know which is correct. Imagine someone who knew absolutely everything posted on the Internet, but lacked any real life experience or judgement to separate fact from fallacy or fiction.

He knows the Flat Earthers say the moon landings were fake and NASA says they are real. But he can only apply his own judgement to assess who is correct.

[zornwil]

People with classic photographic memory have regularly exibited difficulty unlearning bad information, or reconciling it with newly-learned good information, and are often routine or "normalcy" dependent.
As Hugh says, it makes sense, but I never knew that, thanks much for that tidbit.

As to your comment on megascale, I more or less agree. I think one general issue in HERO is that as "dangerous" (easily abusable) components get introduced there is often a perceived need to hamper those with artificial rules to constrict them rather than simply give a warning and let the chips fall where they may. One of the biggest problems with these artificial restrictions is they often break the fundamental rules or metarules preexisting in the system. I think this megasense/megamovement issue is one of those examples, as no one has ever suggested that (for example) running at ridiculous speeds (without megascale) requires increased perception and as that indicates throughout the system it is not normal to require a different power to make one power work "as is". I do think that Megascale is an appropriate and positive enhancement to the system, but it may be an ongoing annoyance in implementation as a few other components have been.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think this megasense/megamovement issue is one of those examples, as no one has ever suggested that (for example) running at ridiculous speeds (without megascale) requires increased perception and as that indicates throughout the system it is not normal to require a different power to make one power work "as is".

This is a big part of the issue, to me. 5" Running, Megascale (1" = 1 km, so 5 km per phase) requires Megascale sight to be used (by the book). However, nothing in the book would require megascale senses to use 5" Running with +8 NCM (5,560" per phase = just over 5 km per phase). Nor are megascale senses required to use FTL, which is considerably faster than 5km per phase. Why?

[Bloodstone]

That may actually be one of the "balancing" factors here. MegaRunning is a lot cheeper then buying Running with a huge NCM multiplier, even if they are designed to accomplish pretty much the same thing.

[Captain Pants]

That may actually be one of the "balancing" factors here. MegaRunning is a lot cheeper then buying Running with a huge NCM multiplier, even if they are designed to accomplish pretty much the same thing.

I very much agree that Megarunning is cheaper. Given a SPD of 6, and you just buy Naked Megascale for a normal ncm running of 12", and Naked Megascale for normal sight, you wind up going 13,421.62 mph, or Mach 18.1, for a whopping 8 pts. Of course, that also means that whenever you move, you move 1 km at a time. If wanted the same speed in ncm, you would need a x1024 ncm, which is 45 pts... but you have some control over your movement for combat.

I usually use a multipower with both Running and Megarunning. Using high NCM is quite inefficient when you can use Megascale, IMHO.

My $.02.

- Captain Pants

[prestidigitator]

My statement was taken directly from a rules book, though likely pre-5e. Eidetic meory + speed reading was explicitly defined to mean you can memorize as fast as you can turn the pages.

The classic photographic memory remembers everything, and does not require study time, BTW. Seems to me it would have its good and bad features (great when studying history, for example, but lousy when you'd like to ejoy re-reading a novel or watching a favorite movie again).
Yes, Eidetic Memory and Speed Reading might allow you to memorize a whole book by just flipping through it. The Eidetic Memory allows you to remember what you process. The Speed Reading allows you to process the information faster than normal.

BTW, Eidetic Memory does not represent real life photographic memory, but something more. Photographic memory does not mean you do not forget things. Photographic memory means that what you do remember, you remember with great detail. You might recall having seen a painting of The Last Supper at some point, but can you close your eyes and actually count the number of people in the painting, recall what each is doing or holding, what they are wearing, what is on the table? Someone with a photographic memory can. They might be able to look at a slide and later picture all the text on it. That does not mean it doesn't take them time to process the meaning of what they remember. Ask them how a word was spelled, and they might have to close their eyes and tell you letter by letter.

My half sister's mother has a photographic memory. She also happens to have a relatively poor long-term memory. Ask her about an article she read this morning and she can recall it word for word. Ask her about something she read a week ago, and she might not even remember having read it (or only be able to tell you vaguely what it was about).

[zornwil]

That may actually be one of the "balancing" factors here. MegaRunning is a lot cheeper then buying Running with a huge NCM multiplier, even if they are designed to accomplish pretty much the same thing.
Then I would think that the costs are what have to be addressed, not arbitrary changes to the base system mechanics.

[Hyper-Man]

This is a big part of the issue, to me. 5" Running, Megascale (1" = 1 km, so 5 km per phase) requires Megascale sight to be used (by the book). However, nothing in the book would require megascale senses to use 5" Running with +8 NCM (5,560" per phase = just over 5 km per phase). Nor are megascale senses required to use FTL, which is considerably faster than 5km per phase. Why?After thinking long and hard on this subject, I'm going to do an about face from my previous opinion on this issue.
:stupid:

I was finally conviced after reading 5ER ,page 264, 3rd paragraph which states:

If the character lacks a MegaSense, or has a MegaSense at a lesser level of MegaScaling than his movement, for every step down the MegaScale Table by which MegaMovement exceeds the MegaScaling on his Sense, he suffers a -1 penalty to make PER Rolls to see obstacles in time to avoid them. The GM may increase or decrease this penalty if appropriate. ...
Since the suggested option for applying MegaScale as a Naked Modifier* to Normal Sight (25 active points) does not work using the current Hero Designer rules (*It automatically becomes an Instant power that Costs End, which was not mentioned in the USPD example). This is extremely clunky as well as expensive.

So really, like Oddhat stated much earlier in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=687065&postcount=3), it does make much more sense to just buy an appropriate amount of Enhanced Perception and/or Telescopic Sense and then possibly applying the limitation: Only To Percieve Objects In Path While Moving At MegaScale Speed (-1/2) to it.


HM
(crazy flipflopper)

[prestidigitator]

Since the suggested option for applying MegaScale as a Naked Modifier* to Normal Sight (25 active points) does not work using the current Hero Designer rules (*It automatically becomes an Instant power that Costs End, which was not mentioned in the USPD example). This is extremely clunky as well as expensive.

So really, like Oddhat stated much earlier in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=687065&postcount=3), it does make much more sense to just buy an appropriate amount of Enhanced Perception and/or Telescopic Sense and then possibly applying the limitation: Only To Percieve Objects In Path While Moving At MegaScale Speed (-1/2) to it.
Wait! You're basing the way you think it should be done with the way that Hero Designer just happens to implement things?!!?!?!? I just gotta wonder at that! :nonp:

[Hyper-Man]

Wait! You're basing the way you think it should be done with the way that Hero Designer just happens to implement things?!!?!?!? I just gotta wonder at that! :nonp:

Technically, that part of Hero Designer is correct. The general rules for Naked Advantages DO change continuous 0 End powers into Instant that now cost End (see 5ER page 244-245). The example of Swift Sight (MegaScale for Normal Sight) from USPD page 205 does not mention this aspect of the rules in its description. I would guess that this is either due to USPD being published before 5ER and perhaps a minor change was made to the rules for Naked Advantages (unlikely) or this is another example of a special case similar to that of Regeneration (with no maximum Body as a default) via Healing (my bet).

Someone else is welcome to try and get Steve L. to confirm/disprove this via the Rules Thread.

HM

[zornwil]

(snipped out of context) Since the suggested option for applying MegaScale as a Naked Modifier* to Normal Sight (25 active points) does not work using the current Hero Designer rules (*It automatically becomes an Instant power that Costs End, which was not mentioned in the USPD example). This is extremely clunky as well as expensive.

As stated parenthetically above, I am taking this out of context and understand there's a broader context as to how one would build this with pen and paper regardless of HD, but I sure hope we don't start using HD as any sort of rules determinant! :fear:

PS - this is not a criticism of HD, I would make the same comment re Metacreator or any other tool even if it were the official HERO chargen tool

PPS - whoops, duped prestidigitator's comments, sorry! So consider this an emphatic ditto

[Hyper-Man]

As stated parenthetically above, I am taking this out of context and understand there's a broader context as to how one would build this with pen and paper regardless of HD, but I sure hope we don't start using HD as any sort of rules determinant! :fear:

PS - this is not a criticism of HD, I would make the same comment re Metacreator or any other tool even if it were the official HERO chargen tool

PPS - whoops, duped prestidigitator's comments, sorry! So consider this an emphatic dittoFurther clarification.... HD was not what really convinced me. I indented the section of 5ER that did that. HD's handling of the rule was just "the icing on the cake" since it reminded of the official book rule. So I think any fears of HD influencing the rules instead of the other way around are a little premature.

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

So really, like Oddhat stated much earlier in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=687065&postcount=3), it does make much more sense to just buy an appropriate amount of Enhanced Perception and/or Telescopic Sense and then possibly applying the limitation: Only To Percieve Objects In Path While Moving At MegaScale Speed (-1/2) to it.

I'f be inclined to set the limitation higher, as enhanced perception or telescopic sense otherwise has considerably greater utility. This is being restricted to a fairly minor use compared to having bonuses to perception rolls at all times.

However, I still lean to the school of thought that powers should come "all equipped" and not require a second power to be used for their basic purpose. Since Flash must buy Megascale Sight to avoid smashing into objects, shouldn't he also be required to purchase some defenses so the friction and wind resistance don't damage him? Perhaps a Suppress for the sonic boom he should be creating?

[zornwil]

Further clarification.... HD was not what really convinced me. I indented the section of 5ER that did that. HD's handling of the rule was just "the icing on the cake" since it reminded of the official book rule. So I think any fears of HD influencing the rules instead of the other way around are a little premature.

HM
I know, like I said I know you meant it would be that way with pen and paper, i.e., per the rules. I just was making a general cautionary note. PS - just because I could see people taking your comment at face value and/or using the approach without regard to researching the rules.

[zornwil]

I'f be inclined to set the limitation higher, as enhanced perception or telescopic sense otherwise has considerably greater utility. This is being restricted to a fairly minor use compared to having bonuses to perception rolls at all times.

However, I still lean to the school of thought that powers should come "all equipped" and not require a second power to be used for their basic purpose. Since Flash must buy Megascale Sight to avoid smashing into objects, shouldn't he also be required to purchase some defenses so the friction and wind resistance don't damage him? Perhaps a Suppress for the sonic boom he should be creating?
I would agree, of course, and posting not to just say that but to add that if there is such a concern on megascaled movement, maybe Megascale just needs to be costed differently for movement. As much of a pain as it might be, I could see the Advantage values for Megascale broken out by type of modification (movement, senses, attacks).

By the way, what does megascaled desolid do... :D

[Hawksmoor]

It morphs into Growth.

Really!

Then your character is Kronos the ethereal Titanian Eternal.

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

I would agree, of course, and posting not to just say that but to add that if there is such a concern on megascaled movement, maybe Megascale just needs to be costed differently for movement. As much of a pain as it might be, I could see the Advantage values for Megascale broken out by type of modification (movement, senses, attacks).

To me, Megascale is built for movement and, perhaps, for senses. So Captain Speedy can run 1 million km per second. So what? He can get anywhere. Add in Usable By Others and he can get the team anywhere. If the characters have this kind of travel capacity, the GM can build a need for it into his plots. If not, he doesn't - the characters take their own vehicle, or a commercial airplane, and the action happens when they arrive. It's a plot device, so it shouldn't carry a huge cost.

MS senses = the "spy eye in the sky", an info gathering tool. You still have to know where to look/listen, so it's not omniscience by any sense. Depending on the game, maybe a greater advantage cost is warranted.

To me, it's attacks where Megascale can fall down. A 1d6 NND, AE 1 hex, Megascale 10 km can put a city to sleep. Megascale attack + megascale senses = character who can attack with limited/ no fear of counterattack. Here, I can definitely see a case for a larger advantage cost.

But, regardless of cost, the bigger issue is whether you want these kinds of abilities in your game. If not, don't allow it. If I'm planning a campaign based around mysteries, Megascale Senses likely go on the "prohibited list" along with Telepathy.

[Vondy]

I'm really considering making a "mach" adder. Megascale is clunky and isn't very granular. I may only want my character with 40" of flight to be able to hit mach one. I'm thinking each mach of movement would be +5.

[zornwil]

It morphs into Growth.

Really!

Then your character is Kronos the ethereal Titanian Eternal.

Hawksmoor
Really? That's what Steve Long would say? Thanks!

:D

[zornwil]

To me, Megascale is built for movement and, perhaps, for senses. So Captain Speedy can run 1 million km per second. So what? He can get anywhere. Add in Usable By Others and he can get the team anywhere. If the characters have this kind of travel capacity, the GM can build a need for it into his plots. If not, he doesn't - the characters take their own vehicle, or a commercial airplane, and the action happens when they arrive. It's a plot device, so it shouldn't carry a huge cost.

MS senses = the "spy eye in the sky", an info gathering tool. You still have to know where to look/listen, so it's not omniscience by any sense. Depending on the game, maybe a greater advantage cost is warranted.

To me, it's attacks where Megascale can fall down. A 1d6 NND, AE 1 hex, Megascale 10 km can put a city to sleep. Megascale attack + megascale senses = character who can attack with limited/ no fear of counterattack. Here, I can definitely see a case for a larger advantage cost.

But, regardless of cost, the bigger issue is whether you want these kinds of abilities in your game. If not, don't allow it. If I'm planning a campaign based around mysteries, Megascale Senses likely go on the "prohibited list" along with Telepathy.
On a tangent, perhaps the oddest thing about megascale is that one of its primary applications is for GMs to build NPC devices and such, and what are basically plot devices! Not a bad thing, though, as at least you can get an "orthodox" Active Points cost if needed.

As to attacks, I half agree, half don't. Where I agree is that by all means one could easily build a devastating attack and it really isn't balanced, absolutely requiring GM oversight/intervention. Where I don't agree is that for "small" powers it can produce a cool AoE that is more flavor and is a much better-balanced cost than buying up AoE, even if perhaps mildly cheesy. I'm thinking of Change Environment sorts of things and very minor attacks that are irritants but should effect some wide area indicating a character's effects.

[RDU Neil]

Or we could resist the urge to pointlesly stat out every frickin' in-genre or SFX linked "that's just how it works" ability.

So, how do you build a box of tissues in Hero?


DAMN SKIPPY! :hail:

[prestidigitator]

Technically, that part of Hero Designer is correct. The general rules for Naked Advantages DO change continuous 0 End powers into Instant that now cost End (see 5ER page 244-245). The example of Swift Sight (MegaScale for Normal Sight) from USPD page 205 does not mention this aspect of the rules in its description. I would guess that this is either due to USPD being published before 5ER and perhaps a minor change was made to the rules for Naked Advantages (unlikely) or this is another example of a special case similar to that of Regeneration (with no maximum Body as a default) via Healing (my bet).
The sited rule only applies to general Naked Advantages. "Naked Advantages," that only apply to one Power don't work this way.

[Silbeg]

I'm really considering making a "mach" adder. Megascale is clunky and isn't very granular. I may only want my character with 40" of flight to be able to hit mach one. I'm thinking each mach of movement would be +5.

I have actually ran in to this issue on a character I was working on myself. I had a sonic-based super (Resonance was his name, but he was never finished) that I gave Megascale flight to... I figured that he should be limited by the speed of sound, so put a -0 limitation to that effect on the power. Given the scale, I didn't believe it really merited even a -1/4 in this case.

[zornwil]

The sited rule only applies to general Naked Advantages. "Naked Advantages," that only apply to one Power don't work this way.
Unless I'm misreading, I believe you're incorrect. The clause on 245 says "All Advantages and Limitations applicable to the base power...function with the naked Advantage but do not alter its cost. Reduced Endurance is an exception - as discussed above, a naked Advantage has a normal END cost unless the character buys Reduced Endurance for it separately.)" (emphasis mine)