Punisher Vs Batman

[L.Craig]

Who Would Win

[WhammeWhamme]

This oughta be a poll.

And Batman.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Ah-ha commence the arguments. Wolverine needs to be in tier 1 in my humble opinion. He was a heck of an MA and pretty close to Cap it was just that he used his healing factor as sort of a modified Iron Shirt Kung-Fu style and thus took a lot of damage.

Remember in the X-men vs. Teen Titans crossover he was able to sneak up on Deathstroke.

[Whitewings]

Let's see:

The Punisher: Decorated vet and ex-cop. Subtle as a train wreck, generally. Good shooter, passable brawler. I'm not thoroughly familiar with the Punisher, but frankly he doesn't seem to be all that.

Bruce Wayne: One of the greatest martial artists in the DC universe. The world's greatest detective. A suberb tactician and strategist, only people like the Joker (who's completely psychotic) can out-plan him. Batman is all that and a side of fries.

Barring some extraordinary fluke, if Batman and the Punisher were to cross paths and be at odds, the Punisher would lose.

[Andrew Cermak]

Batman.

The only thing the Punisher has over Batman is guns, and Batman doesn't need guns.

[Lord Liaden]

It's happened twice: once out of continuity (a crossover special), once in continuity during the JLA/Avengers miniseries. Batman handled Punisher handily both times.

Oh, and if we want to talk top-tier comic book martial artists, Karate Kid (from the Legion of Super-Heroes) is pretty much in a class by himself.

[Force]

Who Would Win

It's not even close.

Bats.

[Ki-rin]

The Bat is THE premier MA of the DC Universe, and has Capt America class characteristics as well.

It's not even a close contest. The Bat wins.

[Ki-rin]

Actually I think there are a few martial artists in the DC Universe who are better. Lady Shiva being a perfect example. But Batman is definitely top tier and Punisher is a second-tier character.
Bats has beaten Lady Shiva multiple times. Took everything he had, and if he was already injured or exhausted she'd win, but assuming they are each in their top form Bats wins.

[pinecone]

Sorry man...I like Punisher, but the bat wins.....maybe a combat shotgun from ambush, but who the bleep can ambush Batman?

[Lord Liaden]

Well the only 2 issues I have of them fighting Batman lost both times, but I haven't collected Batman for a few years and I'm not up on the current continuity. The whole broken back and coming back thing turned me away long ago. :)

I remember one story in which Lady Shiva was beating Batman using her weaponry, but then declared that it wasn't a fair contest because Bats didn't use lethal weapons. She switched to fighting him barehanded and he began to overwhelm her.

[Black Omega]

Well the only 2 issues I have of them fighting Batman lost both times, but I haven't collected Batman for a few years and I'm not up on the current continuity. The whole broken back and coming back thing turned me away long ago. :)

Have to agree here. I know they did the weird stuff in Batgirl. But the only issue I have where Bats beat Shiva was during Death in the Family and that was with Robin's help. If she's apeared in Bats in the last couple of years and fought him I'll have to find it. Last time I saw her in Bats she was nearly killing Catwoman.

[Ki-rin]

Bruce fights when he has to and then to win. Shiva fights because she likes it and then to kill.

Shiva is just as fast and just as well trained in the unarmed arts as Bruce, but she is bloodthristy and has no respect for the "softer" styles that do not focus on crippling or killing an opponent. She also has more MA weapon skills than Bruce has. Shiva is definitely the best female MA "human" in DC, and very likely second only to Bruce overall. Like most women competing to be first in a "Man's world", she's compensated for lesser Str, size, etc by being nastier.

Her bloodthirsty nature and disdain of any definition of "win" that does not involve permanent incapacitation or death are her first flaw that holds back her further MA development. The other is her "honarable arrogance" that leads her to believe that her opponents must have at least, if not more, weapons capability when fighting her for it to be a "fair" fight. Those two factors are the basis for how Bruce beats her.

OTOH, this is NOT an easy task for Bruce, and he has to be at his ABSOLUTE best to have any chance at all of pulling it off. And both of them know it.

For Shiva, Bruce is both a long-desired (and needed) Worthy Opponent and a big puzzle. How can a MA with a "weaker" philosophy be better than she is bare-handed? Shiva does not want to believe that Bruce (or anyone else) has anything to teach her, but she knows deep down that she lacks some understanding and she's honest enough to acknowledge Bruce's results. So part of the relationship between Shiva and Bruce is combat as philosophical debate as contest...

[Theron]

According to the DCU RPG from a few years back, and based on the official word from DC at the time, the top Martial Artists in the DCU were (in order):

Richard Dragon
Lady Shiva
Batgirl (the new one)
Robin
Batman

The rationale for Robin being better than Bats was that Dick is younger and a better athlete. Not sure I buy it, but that's how DC rated them circa 2000.

[Rick R Mortis]

This was covered in JLA/AVengers.

Bats dropped in on the Punisher and bet him up off panel, then got back to what he was doing. And it didn;t even look like he was bothereed or worked up or anyhting afterwards.

So the answer would be Batman.

[Black Omega]

According to the DCU RPG from a few years back, and based on the official word from DC at the time, the top Martial Artists in the DCU were (in order):

Richard Dragon
Lady Shiva
Batgirl (the new one)
Robin
Batman

The rationale for Robin being better than Bats was that Dick is younger and a better athlete. Not sure I buy it, but that's how DC rated them circa 2000.

On the other hand, if memory serves correctly a couple of DC writers have said in pure martial arts Shiva is best, but I'm not sure that was before the new Richard Dragon series or not. He was in limbo for a long time.

And just to answer the initial question, no question Batman wins over the Punisher.

[Enforcer84]

I dislike Batman these days; but the Dork with the skull is even worse. Batman would make him wet himself.

[Hugh Neilson]

According to the DCU RPG from a few years back, and based on the official word from DC at the time, the top Martial Artists in the DCU were (in order):

Richard Dragon
Lady Shiva
Batgirl (the new one)
Robin
Batman

The rationale for Robin being better than Bats was that Dick is younger and a better athlete. Not sure I buy it, but that's how DC rated them circa 2000.

I'm not sure where Richard Dragon falls in this (although the end of his series should tell the tale shortly). However, Batgirl has beaten Lady Shiva, as has Green Arrow Conner Hawke. As I recall, much ado was made of the latter, making him "the best" according to martial arts circles. Since he's also in the Richard Dragon wrapup, we'll doubtless be able to look forward to years of debates over whether the end result is, or is not, correct.

[Bloodstone]

Between the Punisher and the Bat, I gotta vote for the Bat. But at the end of the day, it all comes down to who's writing it. If memory serves, the Punisher just took out Daredevil, Spiderman and Wolverine AT THE SAME TIME less then a year ago.

I believe Warren Ellis was responsible for that tripe, but I may be mistaken.

[Ki-rin]

IMHO, Bats is the DCU version of Capt America.

His characteristics are as high as you can go and still be human; he's incredibly well trained mentally, physically, and emotionally; he's immensely knowledgable on a number of fronts; AND he's got all the infrastructure, perks, and contacts of a multi-billionaire high tech industrialist.

Combine that with a personality that exemplifies "driven" better than any other character ever has in literature.

The Punisher isn't anywhere in his league on any front.

Hyper-specialists in an field like Shiva is in MA (or Richard Dragon, Prometheous, Zeiss, etc) can make his life VERY difficult when he competes in their "turf", but that's partially because he's usually doing other things as well when he runs into them.

Give Bruce the chance to start refreshed and to completely concentrate that intense focus of his on MA, and he's VERY close to the best, if not the best, MA in the DCU... ...And that REALLY annoys MA who've spent their entire lives dedicated to nothing but MA. Some of them don't believe it. Some of them CAN"T believe it. Some of them believe it but think "he got The Title easily".

That's WHY all the MA crawl out of the wood-work to take him on. Just like gunfighters in the Old West looking to test themselves against the best they've heard of.

[Kristopher]

Let's see:

The Punisher: Decorated vet and ex-cop. Subtle as a train wreck, generally. Good shooter, passable brawler. I'm not thoroughly familiar with the Punisher, but frankly he doesn't seem to be all that.

Bruce Wayne: One of the greatest martial artists in the DC universe. The world's greatest detective. A suberb tactician and strategist, only people like the Joker (who's completely psychotic) can out-plan him. Batman is all that and a side of fries.

Barring some extraordinary fluke, if Batman and the Punisher were to cross paths and be at odds, the Punisher would lose.

Actually, according to what's been published within his own stuff, the Punisher is accomplished in a myriad of different martial arts styles, to the point of melding them together and overcoming the limitations of having a "style". I'll see if I can dig up the issue where he describes what he takes from each style, but it might be at home. I was given a large stack of the oversized black-and-white collections at one point.

[Guzalot]

At no time have I ever felt that Wolverine could defeat Captain America in a fight, and so he is relegated to tier 2, IMO.
In What if #43 Cap gets his ass kicked by Conan. If Conan can do it so can Logan. Of course it's just comic books...

[Black Omega]

In What if #43 Cap gets his ass kicked by Conan. If Conan can do it so can Logan. Of course it's just comic books...

Of course, this is part of where these types of matchups gets tough. It really is a matter of who the writer is and what the story is. I remember a Thing v. Hulk fight that started in Fantastic Four, where the Thing was winning easily, then switched to The Incredible Hulk, where the Hulk ended up winning.

[Southern Cross]

So do I.It was during that period where Ben was in his "spiky form" and the "Gray Hulk" was the dominant Hulk personality,so Ben was actually the stronger one.The Hulk was only able to beat the Thing by outsmarting Ben,and he still needed Dr.Doom's help (and a Hulk-robot) to do it.

[Black Omega]

So do I.It was during that period where Ben was in his "spiky form" and the "Gray Hulk" was the dominant Hulk personality,so Ben was actually the stronger one.The Hulk was only able to beat the Thing by outsmarting Ben,and he still needed Dr.Doom's help (and a Hulk-robot) to do it.

At least in the FF, the Hulk robot bought maybe a minute and the Hulk fought both foolishly and then basically gave up when he realized he could not beat Ben. I remember at one point he was basically saying he was happy at least the Thing would not know he'd finally beaten the Hulk, since Ben didn't recognize the grey skinned Hulk as the real Hulk.. Dr. Doom's only direct involvement in the fight was triggering the robot. They had to switch back to the Hulk's book before his fighting spirit and intelligence returned. The final part of the battle took place in Central Park, by which point Doomk was simply watching from afar and the robot was already destroyed. I always wondered in game terms if the best way to handle this effect was to give someone an extra 50 points only usable for their solo appearances in their own title.:)

[Mike W]

Bats would take Castle apart. Period. End of story. Batman, has more gadgets, more stealth and is on the DCU's short list of best hand to hand fighters(top 5). Castle is not nearly that good.

[Hermit]

Giving it to the Bat.

[Guzalot]

I remember a Thing v. Hulk fight that started in Fantastic Four, where the Thing was winning easily, then switched to The Incredible Hulk, where the Hulk ended up winning.
Let's put it in Champions terms then: The dice were hot for the Thing early, but then Hulk rolled a 3!

[Guzalot]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. In response to the OP: Unless Punisher has the hot dice Bats will win.

[Lord Mhoram]

Oh, and if we want to talk top-tier comic book martial artists, Karate Kid (from the Legion of Super-Heroes) is pretty much in a class by himself.

Just needed to be repeated. :)

[Libra]

Gentlemen, this is frankly one of the most ridiculous questions on the "Who could beat Who?" subject I have ever read. Punisher, versus Batman?

The Batman Wins. No contest.

Now if it were Captain America versus Batman, now that would be a fight. You could get an entire comic book out of it.

[TheImperialKhan]

Baring a sniper rifle shot to the head from a mile away this one goes to the Bat. And rightly so I think as Puns has always been a loose cannon without a strong sense of right and wrong , driven primarily by rage. Kinda like the Hulk with guns. ;)

[Jeff T.]

Oh, and if we want to talk top-tier comic book martial artists, Karate Kid (from the Legion of Super-Heroes) is pretty much in a class by himself.

I don't even count him as a true MA in game terms actually. KK is more of a cosmic type being with 'karate' as his SFX IMO. KK vs. Superman seems more believable. I don't even think someone like Batman would fight KK, he'd take a glance and say "way out of my league on a physical level". He'd retreat immediately if possible and get the JLA or think of some sneaky and dirty way to win.

[David Blue]

It's not really ridiculous if you like a character. Everyone has their favorite character and believes they can outshine similar characters. Punisher, Cap, Batman, Wolverine, etc. fanatics think their favorite is the ONE. When you like a character you start to accelerate their importance in your mind. This also carries over into the game where people tend to give favorite comic book characters inflated game stats and damage because they someone seem larger than a standard Champions character.That's true. But I liked Thomas Jane's very human, haunted and vulnerable Punisher, without dreaming for an instant he could live with Frank Miller's unbearable Bat-jerk.

Batman wins this one so easily it's not funny.

[Hugh Neilson]

Who cares? Grimjack takes them both to the cleaners!

[Gasoline, meet Fire. Fire, Gasoline. I think you two could really hit it off. :) ]

[Black Omega]

Gentlemen, this is frankly one of the most ridiculous questions on the "Who could beat Who?" subject I have ever read. Punisher, versus Batman?
Reminds me a little of a time Christopher Lee was asked who he thought would win in a fight, Saruman or Dracula. His answer was along the lines of "That's one of the stupidest questions I've ever been asked." and that was it for that question.


Who cares? Grimjack takes them both to the cleaners!

[Gasoline, meet Fire. Fire, Gasoline. I think you two could really hit it off. :) ]
Nah, you can troll better than that. Most people won't know who Grimjack so it's harder to stir up the passions. If someone suggests your favorite character would lose to someone you -know- is a lamer, then you have to respond. Maybe you should try again with a character people have heard of?

I hope no Grimjack fanatics take that seriously...:)

[Hugh Neilson]

Nah, you can troll better than that. Most people won't know who Grimjack so it's harder to stir up the passions. If someone suggests your favorite character would lose to someone you -know- is a lamer, then you have to respond. Maybe you should try again with a character people have heard of?

I hope no Grimjack fanatics take that seriously...:)

Why would any Grimjack fan take anyone who hasn't heard of Grimjack seriously? :)

[Kristopher]

It's always nice to be reminded of how bloated and out of scale the Batjerk has become over the years because of the marketing decisions that have him hanging out with Superman and the like.

[Black Omega]

Why would any Grimjack fan take anyone who hasn't heard of Grimjack seriously? :)Ouch.:)

Though, to be honest I've not been buying the new series. I might wait until it's collected but for the moment the price and what they are doing with the series have kind of scared me off. I have quite a few issues from the original series, both Grimjacks, and that was fun. I'm just wishing they have not started over again, but that's a personal preference.

[Hugh Neilson]

Ouch.:)

Though, to be honest I've not been buying the new series. I might wait until it's collected but for the moment the price and what they are doing with the series have kind of scared me off. I have quite a few issues from the original series, both Grimjacks, and that was fun. I'm just wishing they have not started over again, but that's a personal preference.

I've quite liked the new series, but I don't view it so much as starting over as a good excuse to cover some missing ground from Gaunt's past and throw in a lot of very familiar characters. Plus, I look forward to finally meeting Munden in the next issue.

[Haven't seen a tourbot yet, though.]

[Dog Soldier]

I notice that no one has brought up "The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe." :straight:

[WhammeWhamme]

I notice that no one has brought up "The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe." :straight:

Well...

Batman > The Punisher > The Marvel Universe.

Sounds about right.

[gewing]

The one comic book image that has stuck in my head was the Karate Kid Flying upward, after just explaining that he HAS no powers to drain, just skill.

And what came after. :weep:





It's happened twice: once out of continuity (a crossover special), once in continuity during the JLA/Avengers miniseries. Batman handled Punisher handily both times.

Oh, and if we want to talk top-tier comic book martial artists, Karate Kid (from the Legion of Super-Heroes) is pretty much in a class by himself.

[assault]

The one comic book image that has stuck in my head was the Karate Kid Flying upward, after just explaining that he HAS no powers to drain, just skill.


Well, he did have a Legion flight ring. Seeing him fly isn't a problem. Nor is seeing him survive in space, for similar reasons.

On the other hand, his combat abilities are just a teensy bit overboard. :)

But he provides a good rationalisation for why Duo Damsel, Bouncing Boy and Matter Eater Lad are viable superheroes. Let's face it: You could be a viable superhero if you trained with Karate Kid for a few years. :)

[fbdaury]

Well, he did have a Legion flight ring. Seeing him fly isn't a problem. Nor is seeing him survive in space, for similar reasons.

On the other hand, his combat abilities are just a teensy bit overboard. :)

But he provides a good rationalisation for why Duo Damsel, Bouncing Boy and Matter Eater Lad are viable superheroes. Let's face it: You could be a viable superhero if you trained with Karate Kid for a few years. :)


I think he's talking about how Nemesis Boy Was able to use his power to copy and improve on Karate Kid's non-power power and then beat him to death. How exactly does that work when Projectra is then able to beat him in hand to hand by not using her powers and break his neck? KK's skill was not a power, so how was NK able to dupe it? It still doesn't make sense and trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt...

[gewing]

I think he's talking about how Nemesis Boy Was able to use his power to copy and improve on Karate Kid's non-power power and then beat him to death. How exactly does that work when Projectra is then able to beat him in hand to hand by not using her powers and break his neck? KK's skill was not a power, so how was NK able to dupe it? It still doesn't make sense and trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt...


I didn't mean sarcasm over the flight ring. FOCUS ignored.


It has probably been 30 years, but didn't he basically suicide to take out a spacecraft?

[Gary]

I think he's talking about how Nemesis Boy Was able to use his power to copy and improve on Karate Kid's non-power power and then beat him to death. How exactly does that work when Projectra is then able to beat him in hand to hand by not using her powers and break his neck? KK's skill was not a power, so how was NK able to dupe it? It still doesn't make sense and trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt...


That's because KK's 'skill' was essentially a power. That's the only way to make sense of what he accomplished.

[fbdaury]

I didn't mean sarcasm over the flight ring. FOCUS ignored.


It has probably been 30 years, but didn't he basically suicide to take out a spacecraft?

Just checked up on it, thought NK had killed him but no he did suicide stopping a weapon/device but only after being severely beaten by NK.

[casualplayer]

The Midnighter vs. Batman thread did a better job of setting the scene. There are ways that Frank could win. Not many, but there are ways. A stand-up fight is not one of them.

The Punisher beat a battered Wolverine with a steamroller. Sorta. It mostly just slowed Logan enough that Frank could get away. In the Spidey/Daredevil/Wolverine team-up Punisher triggered Logan's Berserk and then scrammed while Spider-Man and Daredevil dealt with him. Which Daredevil did with a finger strike to the throat, disabling but not lethal, no bones about it. Ennis does show respect for the non-powered heroes; it's the supergoofs that seem to tick him off.

In their own book, every character has a Fully Invisible 2d6 Aid to all abilities plus 2 Overall Levels for free. So maybe if this fight happened in the pages of Punisher frank might stand a chance. Awww, who am I kidding?

[Kristopher]

This is only so lopsided because the Batjerk has been bloated by years of hanging out with Superman and the like, and years of being pumped up as an ubermachine of combat. Batman is this, Batman is that, blah blah blah. I get sick of hearing about it. I'm not sure why anyone is fond of the character anymore, he's become a complete asshat with no redeaming qualities who is abusive towards his "friends" and can't stop lecturing people about how killing is so terrible and then lets them die casually.

Meanwhile, no one seems to notice that Castle does actually possess a serious degree of martial arts training and experience himself.


And no, I'm not a 16-year-old Punisher geek, which was the response I received the last time I tried to point this stuff out in a discussion online.

[AmadanNaBriona]

With the caveat that I like both characters and haven't read comics in over 15 years, I'm gonna take an unpopular POV and look at this froma gaming standpoint. Both characters are obsessed vigilante types, with enough available funds to do pretty much whatever they want to do. Both have extensive gadgets and other focus related groups of powers. Both extensively study every martial art they can get their hands on and incorporate such manuvers that are most efficent for their needs (very similar to the way Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do in R/L). Both fight to win, not for flash. Both have beaten supers through nothing but training and skill. Both rely on research and gathered intel to tackle tough opponents. Both have been handed their asses on occasion by non powered bad guys who have simply gotten the upper hand.
Bats is the better detective. By far. As well as the better gageteer.
Punisher is the better shot. Practice makes perfect.
Punisher tends to pull a win out of the jaws of defeat more often, from what I've seen. He really seems to have a handle on the "The more I get whooped, the better I fight" talent style constructs.
Bats does the "He who fights and runs away, lives to study the opponent and hand him his head in a rematch" better.

Completely ignoring examples from the comics and working off character ideas I'd say that they're pretty well matched.
In practice, I see the characters as very similar on paper. Granted, Bats has probably an extra 150 xp on Punisher, and for that reason, I'd give the nod to Batman, but I think that it'd be a lot closer than most folk are saying.

And I suspect that Punisher would out and out KILL Joker...

J:"Back off or I kill the girl."
P:"No, you won't"
**BLAM**
J: "Gurgle"

[gewing]

With the caveat that I like both characters and haven't read comics in over 15 years, I'm gonna take an unpopular POV and look at this froma gaming standpoint. Both characters are obsessed vigilante types, with enough available funds to do pretty much whatever they want to do. Both have extensive gadgets and other focus related groups of powers. Both extensively study every martial art they can get their hands on and incorporate such manuvers that are most efficent for their needs (very similar to the way Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do in R/L). Both fight to win, not for flash. Both have beaten supers through nothing but training and skill. Both rely on research and gathered intel to tackle tough opponents. Both have been handed their asses on occasion by non powered bad guys who have simply gotten the upper hand.
Bats is the better detective. By far. As well as the better gageteer.
Punisher is the better shot. Practice makes perfect.
Punisher tends to pull a win out of the jaws of defeat more often, from what I've seen. He really seems to have a handle on the "The more I get whooped, the better I fight" talent style constructs.
Bats does the "He who fights and runs away, lives to study the opponent and hand him his head in a rematch" better.

Completely ignoring examples from the comics and working off character ideas I'd say that they're pretty well matched.
In practice, I see the characters as very similar on paper. Granted, Bats has probably an extra 150 xp on Punisher, and for that reason, I'd give the nod to Batman, but I think that it'd be a lot closer than most folk are saying.

And I suspect that Punisher would out and out KILL Joker...

J:"Back off or I kill the girl."
P:"No, you won't"
**BLAM**
J: "Gurgle"


I agree completely about the Punisher's way of dealing with the Joker.

and the fact that Batman WON'T kill the Joker to stop his murderous rampages, is one of the reasons I would like to write just one comic under the title.

I would have a group of the survivors of the Joker's attacks and their survivors starting a movement to have the Joker Declared "outlaw" in the old english sense, and executed on sight. Batman would be trying to explain why this is wrong, and an 8 year old whose mommy is dead would kick him in the shins. My first thought was spit on him, but...

Or something not quite so drastic. But the fact remains, the Joker is a serial killer, whose death toll is probably uncountable.


If Batman was trying to stop the Punisher, he would. It would basically be his comic, and he is pretty awesome. The punisher would probably get away in the end though.

If the Punisher was trying to hunt Batman, well, he would have a chance. In the last Punisher I actually looked at, he (new writer and artist from when I read) he shot a man in the heart with a tranquilizer dart loaded with Atropine, then dropped a nerve gas MORTAR round on the camp he was in, killing EVERYONE else. There were many flaws with the plan, but it demonstrates he is ruthless, skilled, and creative.

I really do think in Champions terms it would be a 300 point character with NCM versus a 500 point character without.

Batman has supertech gadgets.
Punisher has REAL guns, and the willingness to use them.

The only reasons I can see them fighting are

Batman is trying to put a stop to the Punisher's actions, or protect someone the Punisher is after.

Otherwise, the Punisher would be saying "shit, This guy is a bloody bad ass legend. If I can avoid him, I will, if I can't, I wonder how bulletproof he is.

OTOH, Batman would be concerned. The punisher may not be a superman class character, but he IS ruthless, and highly skilled. Batman would have to be watching out for things like sniper rifle shots from 500 meters away. Multi layer explosive ambushes with claymores.


ah, this goes nowhere, particularly when I am tired.

[Korvar]

OTOH, Batman would be concerned. The punisher may not be a superman class character, but he IS ruthless, and highly skilled. Batman would have to be watching out for things like sniper rifle shots from 500 meters away. Multi layer explosive ambushes with claymores.

Not that he's not had to worry about that anyway.

And how is Mr. Castle going to set up ambushes or sniper shots for Batman? You have to know where the bugger is going to be ahead of time...

[Hugh Neilson]

Not that he's not had to worry about that anyway.

And how is Mr. Castle going to set up ambushes or sniper shots for Batman? You have to know where the bugger is going to be ahead of time...

Crime Alley and a lot of patience? :)

[Supreme Serpent]

Hulk Smash!

[JmOz]

That's because KK's 'skill' was essentially a power. That's the only way to make sense of what he accomplished.


Actualy, ironicaly Champions explains it to us fairly well:

Karate Kid had a MA Karate Package

He also had an INSANE amount of Find Weakness (With all attacks), this also nicely explains how KK could take on kryptonians

Most of the people he trained learned the package but not the Find Weakness

NK was copying the FW, but had to use his own MA Package

Okay in reality it was stupid for him to be able to take out KK, but they wanted to prove what a bad arse he was...

[Lord Mhoram]

How exactly does that work when Projectra is then able to beat him in hand to hand by not using her powers and break his neck? KK's skill was not a power, so how was NK able to dupe it? It still doesn't make sense and trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt...

Rememeber NK didn't duplicate powers he could "adopt any one ability that could allow him to defeat one opponent". When he beat KK, he went to "superkarate" or what not, gave himself a bit more Dex than KK, a bit more Speed, a bit more damage, and a bit more in the way of levels. I figure KK is bought not as a MA package but as a MA multipower or pool.

When Jeckie deals with him, she uses her illusions to show him the hell is going to. He switches his power to make him immune to her illusions (his one power) then Jeckie walks up and snaps his neck, now that he is no longer a kick butt fighter. It's not that he couldn't defend against Jeckie, because it wasn't a power - she was just a tactical enough thinker to get him to change his power and surprise him. NK was never all that bright.


As to the whole Batgod/batjerk thing - Blame Grant Morrison.

[ParagonAlpha]

The Bat is THE premier MA of the DC Universe, and has Capt America class characteristics as well.

It's not even a close contest. The Bat wins.

Actually Batman is number 3 according to DC.

#1 is Connor Hawke
#2 is Lady Shiva
#3 is Batman

It's all about Ollie's lil boy.

[Lord Mhoram]

Actually Batman is number 3 according to DC.

#1 is Connor Hawke
#2 is Lady Shiva
#3 is Batman

It's all about Ollie's lil boy.

Well, last time Connor and Shiva fought, she would have won, but they were interrupted, but he did better against her than anyone else up to that point ever has.

The storyline in the current Richard Dragon comics is all about Shiva wanting a rematch with Richard... and it's a pretty good read, so that may switch things around.

*muses - need to add Dragon and Boon Sai Hong into my avatar*

[Susano]

For the all the complaints about how over-powered/over-done Batman is, I will say the same about the Punisher. He started out as a psycho vigilante who killed criminals, no matter what the crime (IIRC), and has since been turned into some sort of noble anti-hero, fighting a one-man war against organized crime. And since it is a "war" he slaughters people by the truck-load, using more guns than the Harbinger of Bullets, not to mention hidden bases, a combat van, and enough black market hardware to fight a good-sized war. Oh, and now they say he's a master of a stack of martial arts styles? What next? He has a healing factor too? Why this guy ever got his own book, I have no idea. And hearing about him making characters like Spider-man look like total idiots (because the writer hates costumed heroes) pissed me off to no end. He's no better than characters like the Joker. He's just another sociopathic mass-murderer.

[OddHat]

Not that he's not had to worry about that anyway.

And how is Mr. Castle going to set up ambushes or sniper shots for Batman? You have to know where the bugger is going to be ahead of time...

Send him a riddle that leads to the address, and a pair of Hello Kitty panties.

[OddHat]

He's just another sociopathic mass-murderer.

Most supers are sociopaths, if you overthink things. Most Action-Heroes as well.

Of course, living in worlds where the police and politicians are all corrupt or willfully incompetent doesn't help.

[Susano]

Most supers are sociopaths, if you overthink things. Most Action-Heroes as well.

Of course, living in worlds where the police and politicians are all corrupt or willfully incompetent doesn't help.

True, true. It's just I get tired of this one-dimensional goon getting trotted out like he's some sort of icon. At least Wolverine has (or had) the who "trying to overcome my bestial nature" aspect to his character. Something that made him somewhat sympathetic and human. Punisher is just a killing machine.

But hey, one of my favorite superhero comics is PS: 239... (Oh, and ASTRO CITY).

[OddHat]

True, true. It's just I get tired of this one-dimensional goon getting trotted out like he's some sort of icon. At least Wolverine has (or had) the who "trying to overcome my bestial nature" aspect to his character. Something that made him somewhat sympathetic and human. Punisher is just a killing machine.

But hey, one of my favorite superhero comics is PS: 239... (Oh, and ASTRO CITY).

Fully agreed, both on the character assessment and on the comics.

[tm80401]

I think he's talking about how Nemesis Boy Was able to use his power to copy and improve on Karate Kid's non-power power and then beat him to death. How exactly does that work when Projectra is then able to beat him in hand to hand by not using her powers and break his neck? KK's skill was not a power, so how was NK able to dupe it? It still doesn't make sense and trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt...

Projectra beat him because his powers adapted to make him immune to her illusions. So she didn't use them. She killed him by hand, like a ruler should kill the murderer of their spouse.

[Eyendasky80]

For the all the complaints about how over-powered/over-done Batman is, I will say the same about the Punisher. He started out as a psycho vigilante who killed criminals, no matter what the crime (IIRC), and has since been turned into some sort of noble anti-hero, fighting a one-man war against organized crime.

The episode which depicts Frank as taking a hardline on any crime (even jaywalking) was the result of a writer not liking the character on a personal level. He was appalled at The Punisher's growing popularity and wanted to smear him by making it seem he would murder jaywalkers and litterers as soon as murderers and rapists. But Romita never intended that and no other writer since this forgetable author has inferred anything close to this. Most agree Frank is certifiable, some show him as a sane calculating soldier on a mission, but nearly everyone (excepting the aforementioned) has portrayed Frank as adhering to a strict moral code.


Oh, and now they say he's a master of a stack of martial arts styles?

The current writer has only made one mention of a fighting style that I can recollect. I believe it was Splat-Fu.


And hearing about him making characters like Spider-man look like total idiots (because the writer hates costumed heroes) pissed me off to no end. He's no better than characters like the Joker. He's just another sociopathic mass-murderer.

Ennis is also the one who made light of Marvel's costumed heroes (excepting Daredevil). I think Wolverine kind of deserved it. His take on Spider-Man wasn't too mean and very funny. But I thought he was portrayed as way too inept and I didn't think it should have been considered in-continuity with the rest of the MU. I think someone learned from that fiasco, though, because they moved Frank from the MU to his own world in a MAX title and it is by far my favorite book right now. I can't stress enough how the MAX book is %300 better than the Marvel Knights book.

[Susano]

Ennis is also the one who made light of Marvel's costumed heroes (excepting Daredevil). I think Wolverine kind of deserved it. His take on Spider-Man wasn't too mean and very funny. But I thought he was portrayed as way too inept and I didn't think it should have been considered in-continuity with the rest of the MU. I think someone learned from that fiasco, though, because they moved Frank from the MU to his own world in a MAX title and it is by far my favorite book right now. I can't stress enough how the MAX book is %300 better than the Marvel Knights book.

I don't think much of Garth Ennis, so my opinions might be colored. As for moving the Punisher into his own universe, that seems to be the most sensible decision yet.

[Eyendasky80]

I don't think much of Garth Ennis, so my opinions might be colored. As for moving the Punisher into his own universe, that seems to be the most sensible decision yet.

It's amazing how dramatically it changed the book. I mean, the only thing that changed technically was the inclusion of swearing and nudity, but the whole feel and scope of the book has changed, we still have the same creative team (excepting the rotating artist bit, they've been sticking with one guy for a few arcs now). I have no idea if it's official that the Punisher now exists in some pocket universe, but he's completely isolated from the other aspects of the Marvel U. He was involved in a huge gang war in Hell's Kitchen and DD never showed up.

For some reason, this development has invigiorated Ennis. He's lost his condescending sneer and wink that oozed through his Marvel Knights work, abandoned his formula of The Punisher as a plot device for creative homicide and humorous advisaries. Now he's populating Frank's world with truly scary and formidable villains. Some of which actually manage to survive their fist battle with Frank and return for a rematch. He's really developing Frank's character, adding a depth we haven't seen in a long time. Mother Russia, the arc just finished, was amazing and I hope anyone who ever enjoyed The Punisher or loves action movies will check it out.

[David Blue]

For the all the complaints about how over-powered/over-done Batman is, I will say the same about the Punisher. [... snip ...] Oh, and now they say he's a master of a stack of martial arts styles? What next?You left out that he has Returned From Death (at least once). I suppose it's easy to forget that. So many heroes have done as much.

This is why I specified which Punisher I had in mind. I like the Thomas Jane movie version. He's just a guy, or rather he's superhuman, like all action heroes, but not too much. He's got nothing on Arnold Schwarzenegger's Colonel John Matrix, from Commando, or Jean Reno's Leon, from Leon (alternate title The Professional), in power and skill. He's between them in morality, far more than half-way up, since rescuing is superior to punishing, and either is in a higher moral universe compared to assassination, which Leon does.

In this context, the Punisher deserves to be considered one of the good guys. Keep him human and sympathetic, like Thomas Jane does, give him scenes where he shows his decency and where he recognises the decency and courage of ordinary people, don't let him rise above the action movie level where he fits in, and I think he's fine.

I would warmly support what Suzano said for some comic versions though.

[casualplayer]

Garth Ennis writes a good Punisher. So does Chuck Dixon. Mike Baron lets a little too much Badger bleed through. Larry Hama is a Skaramine-level gun nut, so his issues focus more on the firearms. Gerry Conway created him, in the era of Death Wish/Dirty Harry, concurrently with such stars as pointy toed Tarantula and Rocket Racer.

I would love to see Mike Grell, John Ostrander and Frank Miller take their shot at Frank.

Currently Frank is written as a 50-60 year old Vietnam era vet that basically sold his soul to survive his firebase being overrun. His family died back in 1976, when he first debuted. Apparently killing people keeps you pretty frisky, but for the most part he is a big guy with extensive commando training. A big chunk of gristle and scar tissue. He could probably tussle with the Batman in The Dark Knight Returns.

Eternally 30-something DC Batman would take him apart.

[Susano]

I would love to see Mike Grell, John Ostrander and Frank Miller take their shot at Frank.

Miller did - in the pages of DAREDEVIL.

[Kristopher]

Not that he's not had to worry about that anyway.

And how is Mr. Castle going to set up ambushes or sniper shots for Batman? You have to know where the bugger is going to be ahead of time...

Lure him into a trap...

Oh wait, Batman never ever falls for traps and is never fooled by anyone. Nevermind.

[casualplayer]

Miller did - in the pages of DAREDEVIL.

I can't believe I forgot. Maybe Matt and Frank should switch enemies for a bit? Punisher vs. Bullseye! Should take about 5 panels. "What kind of fool puts targets on his costume?"

[Phil]

Lure him into a trap...

Oh wait, Batman never ever falls for traps and is never fooled by anyone. Nevermind.
In JLA, for sure. In his own books, he happily swings from super-smug psychic visionary to dumb-ass sucker. I think he's got 150 points of core abilities with a big AID (all powers, chars and skills) with the limitation "Only to bring points total equal to the main villain in the story line"

[gewing]

Well, last time Connor and Shiva fought, she would have won, but they were interrupted, but he did better against her than anyone else up to that point ever has.

The storyline in the current Richard Dragon comics is all about Shiva wanting a rematch with Richard... and it's a pretty good read, so that may switch things around.

*muses - need to add Dragon and Boon Sai Hong into my avatar*

I forget, is Richard Dragon the question?

[AmadanNaBriona]

For the all the complaints about how over-powered/over-done Batman is, I will say the same about the Punisher. He started out as a psycho vigilante who killed criminals, no matter what the crime (IIRC), and has since been turned into some sort of noble anti-hero, fighting a one-man war against organized crime. And since it is a "war" he slaughters people by the truck-load, using more guns than the Harbinger of Bullets, not to mention hidden bases, a combat van, and enough black market hardware to fight a good-sized war. Oh, and now they say he's a master of a stack of martial arts styles?

Remember, I'm working with OLD examples here... my Punisher comics start with Miller, go through his first mini series, and end shortly after Jim Lee left Punisher War Journal. One of which had a filler section (IIRC) that taked about all the different styles Frank had studied... A lot of them were weird, straight out of UMA styles like Jailhouse Rock and Lua. PWJ also did a pretty good job of showing how all the weapons and gadgets like the van came about... a sidekick and a lot of funds obtained from bad guys who didn't need the money anymore. So none of these developments are what you'd call new.
And how do you get a good sniper shot on Batman?
Maybe you hang around near the top of the police building that they shine the FREAKING BAT SIGNAL ON!!!!!

[Lord Mhoram]

I forget, is Richard Dragon the question?

No. He never really went by any superhero name other then Richard Dragon. Hung out with Bronze Tiger.

[Black Omega]

No. He never really went by any superhero name other then Richard Dragon. Hung out with Bronze Tiger.Correct, Vic Sage is The Question. But Vic was trained by Richard Dragon, so there is a sort of relation.

[Korvar]

And how do you get a good sniper shot on Batman?
Maybe you hang around near the top of the police building that they shine the FREAKING BAT SIGNAL ON!!!!!

That would be the one called "The Police Station"? The one with large numbers of trained armed people?

Yeah, that'd go well. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

That would be the one called "The Police Station"? The one with large numbers of trained armed people?

Yeah, that'd go well. :)

In fairness, not a single one of those large numbers of trained armed peoplke ever seem to see Batman coming in or going out. Would it really be that hard for someone not lacking in skills himself to hide on a roof across the street?

[OddHat]

In fairness, not a single one of those large numbers of trained armed peoplke ever seem to see Batman coming in or going out. Would it really be that hard for someone not lacking in skills himself to hide on a roof across the street?

Nor are even large groups of Gotham's police of any use whatsoever against completely untrained insane normal humans like Two-Face or the Joker; why should they be any more effective against a well trained psychotic like the Punisher?

[Hugh Neilson]

Nor are even large groups of Gotham's police of any use whatsoever against completely untrained insane normal humans like Two-Face or the Joker; why should they be any more effective against a well trained psychotic like the Punisher?

Come to think of it, Punisher would have made a decent Bats rogue, wouldn't he?

[OddHat]

Come to think of it, Punisher would have made a decent Bats rogue, wouldn't he?

Yup. Catwoman commits another "daring" robberry, accidentaly starting a fire that ends up killing the unconscious security guards she left behind. The Punisher rols into town, looking to, well, punish her. Hilarity ensues.

[Libra]

What you say about the Gotham Cops not being able to deal with untrained villains like the Joker may be true, but you are missing one important fact out:

The Joker is absolutely, positively and negatively, up-and-down left-and-right nuts. How can a sane policeman trained to deal with sane crooks cope with a Clown who kills people for kicks?

Thats why they have Batman.

[Bloodstone]

Are you insisting that since Castle isn't an insane psychopath clown that the Gothams finest have a better chance of spoting his sniping position on a nearby building? ;)

[OddHat]

What you say about the Gotham Cops not being able to deal with untrained villains like the Joker may be true, but you are missing one important fact out:

The Joker is absolutely, positively and negatively, up-and-down left-and-right nuts. How can a sane policeman trained to deal with sane crooks cope with a Clown who kills people for kicks?

I have friends who work in the criminal justice system, and I've done court translation work myself. Contrary to what Comic Book writers may tell you, "drunk, drugged or crazy" are the default states for violent criminals. A disorganized psychopathic clown with a long list of known assosciates (as the Joker is often written) should be fairly easy for the police to deal with. Someone who could pass for normal in a crowd would be much harder. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

I have friend who work in the criminal justice system, and I've done court translation work myself. Contrary to what Comic Book writers may tell you, "drunk, drugged or crazy" are the default states for violent criminals. A disorganized psychopathic clown with a long list of known assosciates (as the Joker is often written) should be fairly easy for the police to deal with. Someone who could pass for normal in a crowd would be much harder. ;)

BatUniverse Genre Convention #1: Distinctive Features gains no disadvantage points because it never actualy causes a disadvantage. How does a chalk white guy with green hair evade detection consistently?

[gewing]

Correct, Vic Sage is The Question. But Vic was trained by Richard Dragon, so there is a sort of relation.


The reason I wondered is that one of the few Question comics I read had lady Shiva showing up, beating him pretty badly, and commenting that he has let his skills atrophy.

[Black Omega]

They had a weird relationship. Question #1 featured Sage getting beaten to a bloody pulp after telling Shiva to get out of his way or she'd get hurt. Then she saved his life and passed him along to Richard Dragon for training. For a time she thought he had promise, then around issue #32 or so she returned and commented that he'd let his skills slip again.

[Kristopher]

Oh, and now they say he's a master of a stack of martial arts styles? What next? He has a healing factor too?


Actually, the material in which he details the different fighting styles he has found useful, with the implication that he's quite accomplished in them, has to be at least 15 years old.

[Libra]

On the comment about most criminals being nuts: The Joker is not crazy. He is a considerable way beyond crazy. So far beyond crazy that he has come right back to it. And then some. The cops just could not handle a nut like that. On the Joker escaping detection: He could just go a la Nicolson in the Movie, you know, makeup, hair dye, etc.

[OddHat]

On the comment about most criminals being nuts: The Joker is not crazy. He is a considerable way beyond crazy. So far beyond crazy that he has come right back to it. And then some.

I knew a fella who used to tell folks that he was beyond crazy, but he turned out to be nuts.

[Hugh Neilson]

On the Joker escaping detection: He could just go a la Nicolson in the Movie, you know, makeup, hair dye, etc.

I could buy that if there were any indication he'd ever done so, but the comics never show him in any sort of discuise, and his need for atention, manic behaviour and unusual facial features would still make any disguise tough to succeed with.

[Hawksmoor]

Baring a sniper rifle shot to the head from a mile away this one goes to the Bat. And rightly so I think as Puns has always been a loose cannon without a strong sense of right and wrong , driven primarily by rage. Kinda like the Hulk with guns. ;)

A classic quote:

"Why do you think dI put a target on my chest?"

"Because I can't put armor on my head."

That and Batman and Robin III's capes *are* ballistic armored cloth with gel inserts.

The Batman wins...

he always wins.

Hawksmoor

[robbneu]

They had a weird relationship. Question #1 featured Sage getting beaten to a bloody pulp after telling Shiva to get out of his way or she'd get hurt. Then she saved his life and passed him along to Richard Dragon for training. For a time she thought he had promise, then around issue #32 or so she returned and commented that he'd let his skills slip again.

A little off-topic, but the Question was always one of my favorites and I loved is series from the late 80s.

"Shoot him in the head and dump his body in the river. If he comes back singing Danny Boy, I'll give him anything he wants."

Classic. :)

Another off-topic point... Black Canary is supposed to be on of the DC Universe's greatest martial artists as well. She's gone toe-to-toe with Shiva many times, as well, and has been more than a match each time.

Robb

[Susano]

A little off-topic, but the Question was always one of my favorites and I loved is series from the late 80s.

"Shoot him in the head and dump his body in the river. If he comes back singing Danny Boy, I'll give him anything he wants."

Classic. :)

Question meets Green Arrow and they discuss Sun Tzu. A great sequence. Also, his picking up WATCHMEN to read on the plane was just great.

"This guy Rorschach has some great moves."