Batman vs Midnighter

[nexus]

Open battle in the street, all gadgets and gear but they just meet each other and fight with no prep time or intelligence on either side. Who wins?

[OddHat]

Midnighter (Ellis version) has low level superhuman strength, speed, and toughness, plus the battle computer. Batman is the fan favorite. Therefore, eventually, Batman wins.

[Theron]

On the basis of pure statistical presentation, Midnighter eats his lunch, with only a bit of blood at the corner of his mouth as evidence of the fight. He's a superhuman in every sense of the word.

But it depends on whether he's facing Batman or Bat-God. :rolleyes:

[Ki-rin]

Here's a type of question I don't have to ask very often...

Who is Midnighter?

Someone give me a full background and home universe for him please?

[Blue]

I've only seen the second volume of The Authority, so I can only go by what I saw there. And all I saw was a lot of talk about him being a badass, but little evidence. Often it was a shot of them entering the fight and a shot of the aftermath. That's not good enough for me.

The only time Midnighter really impressed me was when he psyched a foe into retiring before the fight got started. That was pretty funny.

I've gotta go with Batman.

[fbdaury]

Well I like Batman and even the "Bat-God" version that so seems to bother some people here, but either one of them would get their teeth handed to them. I will say this though, Midnighter would not be killing Bats, just beating him. And the Rematch would be VERY different story, once Bats can plan and prepare some. A better initial fight though would be Midnighter vs. Batgirl, who would I believe would eat Midnighter's lunch... :sneaky:

[nexus]

Background: Apollo and Midnighter are the products of Henry Bendix, artificially created superhumans designed for combat and physical prowess. Apollo was genetically engineered; Midnighter is a creation of cybernetic technology. A quantum based combat computer was implanted into his mind, allowing him to analyze any combat situation billions of times in nanoseconds and predict every move, every possible outcome and every proper response. As such he is nearly unbeatable in combat. Bendix also erased all knowledge and records of who Midnighter used to be before joining the team. He has no memories and precious little of his humanity left. After their disastrous first mission and Bendix’s betrayal, Apollo and Midnighter lived on the run for five years before being asked to join in the core membership of The Authority.

Powers: Midnighter is a combat machine. Almost literally. His implanted computers can predict any moves an opponent will make and how to counter them. He runs every fight billions of times in his mind, covering every contingency. His enhancements grant him practical precognition in combat and the ability to see enhancements and brain activity in his opponents so nothing they can do comes a surprise to him. Bendix’s “improvements� have removed his need to eat, excrete, even breathe for periods of time and Midnighter is almost impossible to kill, possessing redundant organs and an healing factor.

Mdnighter is a character from The Authority.

[Hermit]

Batman's heart is pure, thus he must surely win.

Oh, wait, that was Strong Guy... :)

[Ki-rin]

a straight-up no prep time or previous intelligence fight between Bats and this Midnighter results in Bats getting seriously hurt in the first exchange or retreating at the first opportunity to gather intelligence and set up more favorable circumstances.

Any other members of the "Bat family" would be lucky to escape with their lives, and I don't think any of them beside a mature Dick Grayson would have much of a chance of even that.

[Marketeer]

Background: Apollo and Midnighter are the products of Henry Bendix, artificially created superhumans designed for combat and physical prowess. Apollo was genetically engineered; Midnighter is a creation of cybernetic technology. A quantum based combat computer was implanted into his mind, allowing him to analyze any combat situation billions of times in nanoseconds and predict every move, every possible outcome and every proper response. As such he is nearly unbeatable in combat. Bendix also erased all knowledge and records of who Midnighter used to be before joining the team. He has no memories and precious little of his humanity left. After their disastrous first mission and Bendix’s betrayal, Apollo and Midnighter lived on the run for five years before being asked to join in the core membership of The Authority.

Powers: Midnighter is a combat machine. Almost literally. His implanted computers can predict any moves an opponent will make and how to counter them. He runs every fight billions of times in his mind, covering every contingency. His enhancements grant him practical precognition in combat and the ability to see enhancements and brain activity in his opponents so nothing they can do comes a surprise to him. Bendix’s “improvements� have removed his need to eat, excrete, even breathe for periods of time and Midnighter is almost impossible to kill, possessing redundant organs and an healing factor.

Mdnighter is a character from The Authority.


So... a luck based character like Longshot would wreck him? There's a limit to the number of outlandish scenarios that Midnighter's combat computer could go through, after all...

(I haven't read the Authority, just trying to get a handle on Midnighter)

[fbdaury]

a straight-up no prep time or previous intelligence fight between Bats and this Midnighter results in Bats getting seriously hurt in the first exchange or retreating at the first opportunity to gather intelligence and set up more favorable circumstances.

Any other members of the "Bat family" would be lucky to escape with their lives, and I don't think any of them beside a mature Dick Grayson would have much of a chance of even that.

Yeah that's why Batgirl has done something no one else ever did- beat SHiva in a straight up fight. She'd read Midnighter's body language while he tries to "scan" the battle in his head but he would not be able to read her- he would not sense any implants or powers from her, since she is human, but his battel computer would not be able to compensate for her ability to read him like a book. :sneaky:

[Ki-rin]

Bats has beaten Shiva in a straight up fight. I believe Richard Dragon did at one point as well. Until this Batgirl (NOT Barbara Gordon), I don't think any female character in the DCU has done so, but she most likely got lucky once and that result will be a fluke.

Batgirl has some impressive abilities for a teenage girl who is an adrenaline junky with a permanent case of borderline homocidal mania (and I quote Onyx: "you have the soul of an assassin.") but let's get real here: folks like Bats and Shiva have exactly the same ability and literally 3x her experience using it to boot. To the MA who constantly trains like these do, Age is not a Dis Ad. OTC, DECADES of hard training and experience is an empowerment (go watch some "old geezers" who are Masters).

Batgirl's a prodigy, no question. But maturity matters more in the long run in the MA.
She got lucky against Shiva. Once.

As for this matchup, Midnighter does NOT fight like a person, he fights like a computer. There should be no body language cues besides those physics dictates (no "style" to read) and he's basically a cyborg, a high tech super, to boot. When I read nexus' description the first thought that can to mind was "combines the best of computer, human, and robot for combat purposes." This is an opponent for very experienced folks like Bats (who will lose the first battle but win the war assuming he survives the first round) or very experienced powerful ones like Martian Manhunter, Superman, or Wonder Woman (the premier bricks of the DCU).

IOW, depending on his exact stats and abilities, this Midnighter sounds like a potential =JLA= level threat.

Little girls, even dangerous homocidal prodigy MA little girls, should be lucky to escape with their lives.

[nexus]

So... a luck based character like Longshot would wreck him? There's a limit to the number of outlandish scenarios that Midnighter's combat computer could go through, after all...

(I haven't read the Authority, just trying to get a handle on Midnighter)

That is an interesting scenaraio. Midnighter's computer systems are apparently able to run a battle scenario billions of times, but something almost completely random.... Yeah that would be interesting to see if they could cope with that.

[nexus]

Yeah that's why Batgirl has done something no one else ever did- beat SHiva in a straight up fight. She'd read Midnighter's body language while he tries to "scan" the battle in his head but he would not be able to read her- he would not sense any implants or powers from her, since she is human, but his battel computer would not be able to compensate for her ability to read him like a book. :sneaky:

Midnighter's computer implants are quantum computer based, They run scenarios far faster than a human being can think. Many billions of time in a split second probably literally before the visual information that he's there has reached Batgirl's brain from her optic nerve, calculating every possible angle and move. His sensors detect neural activity, giving a practical readout of his opponent's capabilities. He's also superhumanly fast (able to move at Speedster level rates for breif periods), strong (low end brick) and resistant to injury. So far the only characters that have been able to best him in HTH have been those too physically tough for him to hurt even when he did hit them or mentalists they were able to screw with his mental enhancements.

I know it sounds fanboyish but that is really kind of hype Midnighter is given.

[Ki-rin]

Midnighter's computer implants are quantum computer based, They run scenarios far faster than a human being can think. Many billions of time in a split second probably literally before the visual information that he's there has reached ... brain from (the) optic nerve, calculating every possible angle and move. His sensors detect neural activity, giving a practical readout of his opponent's capabilities. He's also superhumanly fast (able to move at Speedster level rates for breif periods), strong (low end brick) and resistant to injury. So far the only characters that have been able to best him in HTH have been those too physically tough for him to hurt even when he did hit them or mentalists they were able to screw with his mental enhancements.

I know it sounds fanboyish but that is really kind of hype Midnighter is given.

Yep. Definitely sounds like a new JLA class combatent has entered the DCU "ring".

[casualplayer]

Aww, jeez. This has remained relatively calm with the only Bat-fan to come out staking a claim for Batgirl. Normally this turns into "My Dad can beat up your Dad" within 10 posts.

Midnighter carries the Batcomputer in his head and has a cybernetic link to it. Bats has to go back and study for a bit before he's ready for the test.

Midnighter just looks human so he can get within arms reach and kill you. Batman actually is human.

Midnighter got jacked in and Bam! "Whoa, I know Kung Fu." Batman traveled the world and studied with the best masters he could find (why he doesn't have the gnarliest knuckles of any billionaire is beyond me.)

Midnighter has lost fistfights with superhumans that could give Superman a bloody nose. Batman has been beat by Bane, Shiva, Wildcat, Cassandra/Batgirl, Prometheus and a bunch of other human-level MA. He doesn't lose twice generally.

However Batman has anti-Midnighter spray in his utility belt. Seriously, if it's a conjoined comic world, Waynetech either designed or consulted on just about everything that went into Midnighter. If he were to recognize it in time, and it is Batman after all, he would be able to give that combat computer a virus. Imagine if the combat computer's response to Batman's left hook (taught to him by Wildcat!) was to jut your jaw out, lifting it just slightly and standing flat-footed. Maybe the response to a snap kick is to flap your arms like a chicken?

Hey, Kev blew Midnighter's head off because Midnighter is a sadist that likes to gloat and his combat computer didn't know there were 7 chambers in the pistol (I think it was a Webley.) There are weaknesses to exploit. Batman is a prime choice to find and maximize those.

[David Blue]

I know it sounds fanboyish but that is really kind of hype Midnighter is given.It is fanboyish, and it's also correct.

That's why I see no point in comparing the Authority to anyone. The gap between the villains in the Authority and their writers does not exist. Viewpoints and egos are not kept separate.

Champions combats assume we are going to be a bit objective and transcend the rage of a little boy insisting "Bang, bang, I got you and you missed, I will not fall down, you fall down, bwaahh!"

The essence of the Authority is not to transcend that. None of their opponents had the opportunity to fight them on "fair" terms, without the writers, like rabid fanboys with political axes to grind, throwing punches to make their/the characters viewpoints right and ultimately victorious.

If you're talking about the Midnighter, or the Authority in general, without gross authorial favouritism - it's not really the Authority.

It's like discussing Krazy Kat comics and Ignatz Mouse as though hitting with a thrown brick came down to OCV, DCV and levels. In that world, no, that's not what it's about.

PS, just for the record, so I'm not dodging the thread question: if the Midnighter fights Batman (under that name or some deliberately shallow disguise) - he thrashes him, likely rapes and/or tortures him, and kills him. Easy. Since the Authority disposed of the Avengers (under a deliberately shallow disguise) like this, it's not an issue. Batman would do as well as Captain America did.

[Iuz the Evil]

It is fanboyish, and it's also correct.

PS, just for the record, so I'm not dodging the thread question: if the Midnighter fights Batman (under that name or some deliberately shallow disguise) - he thrashes him, likely rapes and/or tortures him, and kills him. Easy. Since the Authority disposed of the Avengers (under a deliberately shallow disguise) like this, it's not an issue. Batman would do as well as Captain America did.

Yeah, I think Batman would do a little better than Cap, but ultimately the Midnighter is designed to be effectively unbeatable in hand-to-hand combat by anyone of remotely human level power. That's what the authors/writers of the Authority created the character for, to be an invincible iconic superhuman-martial artist, emphasis on invincible.

Given time to prepare, Bats could win out, as that's his genre speciality imho. Far more so than martial arts or gadgeteering, he's the master detective without peer.

One on one, no prep time, on a street? Midnighter would punch a hole in Batman's cranium. Or commit some other graphic mutilation of him... but since Midnighter is the Authority's "Batman-clone" I guess that'd be punching a hole in his own cranium? Ahhh... screw it. I say it's the Midnighter in one round.

P.S. "no prep time or intelligence on either side" - oh yeah, I'm sticking with the Midnighter on this one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah, I think Batman would do a little better than Cap, but ultimately the Midnighter is designed to be effectively unbeatable in hand-to-hand combat by anyone of remotely human level power. That's what the authors/writers of the Authority created the character for, to be an invincible iconic superhuman-martial artist, emphasis on invincible.

Given time to prepare, Bats could win out, as that's his genre speciality imho. Far more so than martial arts or gadgeteering, he's the master detective without peer.

Sounds like Batman vs Prometheus to me. First out, Bats can't hold a candle to Prometheus. Second time? Congratulations - you've just downloaded the physical skills of Steven Hawkings."

To go back to the initial premise (and with the caveat I don't read Authority):


Open battle in the street, all gadgets and gear but they just meet each other and fight with no prep time or intelligence on either side. Who wins?

They spar, Bats realizes he can't win, Bats fades. After doing some research on Midnighter and some careful planning, Midnighter is taken out in three panels.

[Gary]

How about Karate Kid vs Midnighter?

[Wanderer]

I would be somewhat curious to know what makes several posters so sure that Batman ever manages to survive and escape from that first, unplanned fight where he is abysmally outclassed in combat abilities. Midnighter isn't an inexperienced fighter, and he is far from following the philosophy that letting your opponents see another day ever leads to something good.

Possible reason: Midnighter already knows Bats, and/or the circumstances of the fight let him know that Bats is "on the side of the angels" or otherwise an opponent not to be killed (hey, it happens: he let once Tank Man walk away, too).

[Metaphysician]

In a straight fight, Midnighter hands Batman his ass.

If Batman is allowed to prepare for the fight, OTOH, there's a good chance he could come up with something to disrupt the battlecomp, or outright shut down his enhancements ( granted, this would require lots of time, enough to either hack/trace whatever files Team Achilles has, or build "overkill" into the design ).

[Hugh Neilson]

I would be somewhat curious to know what makes several posters so sure that Batman ever manages to survive and escape from that first, unplanned fight where he is abysmally outclassed in combat abilities. Midnighter isn't an inexperienced fighter, and he is far from following the philosophy that letting your opponents see another day ever leads to something good.

A 60+ year publishing history of escaping such battles? :)

[OddHat]

How about Karate Kid vs Midnighter?

Karate Kid wins when Midnighter's Battle Comp (built by low paid half-trained independant contractors working for the lowest bidder) overheats and explodes inside his skull, unable to cope with the problem of defeaing a master of the martial arts so advanced that he can go toe-to-toe with Kryptonians (even if only for a few seconds).

This is why your skull computer should always have the best heat sink and cooling fan money can buy.

[assault]

This is why your skull computer should always have the best heat sink and cooling fan money can buy.

Wiser words have never been said.

:)

On the topic: Batman would kick Midnighter's plastic a** the second time. The first time, Midnighter is just another one of the supervillains that slap Batman around the first time. Blah blah blah. Another supervillain that can take out Batman in combat. (Yawn...)

Incidentally, isn't Ed Brubaker working on the Authority at the moment? That could potentially be good. Or at least as good as an essentially sucky title can get.

[Wanderer]

A 60+ year publishing history of escaping such battles? :)

at least 3/4 of which have been spent fighting the unpowered likes of Joker, Penguin, Riddler and assorted goons and crooks :)

Edit: yes, I'm aware of the JLA "Bat-God" Phenomenon. It appears that whenever Bats hangs up with the rest of the JLA god-like crew, his otherwise latent world-class mutant or chi-based "master warrior" superpowers activate, turning a somewhat believable very-well-trained, but unpowered martial arts vigilante into a cosmic-level uberpowered God of Battle. Following this line of thought, JLA superpowered Bats might fight Midnighter on an equal ground. After all, Midnighter was originally written to be an Iron Age version of the JLA batman archetype with a somewhat more believable superpowered SFX. Either that, or having the Bats clone always keep bitching about being hopelessy outmatched by the cosmic guys (cfr. Supreme Power).

[Victim]

Aside from Midnighter's super abilities, isn't this match basically like Kasparov vs. Deep Blue?

[Vorsch]

The machine won

[Iuz the Evil]

Any time that a single member of the Authority is mentioned on these boards, I feel that a trip to hater-town is in order. Riding the hater-vater on down to enjoy a big old glass of hater-ade.

To that I find myself wondering, "Why you got to be a hater?"

You would thiink this run of comics would be the worst in history, right up there with Lois Lane #106 (where Lois announces "It's important I live the next 24 hours as a black woman!") and Pinhead and Foodini #1. Sheesh.

[freakboy6117]

Midnighter didn't kill the Americans cap analogue he just used the petrol-powered dildo on him after Apollo crippled him.on the other hand he did kick the snot out of the whole x men analogue in the same run.

Much as I hate to say it I think midnighter would win unless batman has something in his utility belt that would shut down midnighter early before midnighter realized and put that limited super speed to use. If batman survived then the second fight would go to Bats with his scientific genius used to figure out how to jam the computer and kick midnighter ass six ways from Sunday unfortunatly midnighter doesn’t leave his enemies alive (perhaps the swift intervention of talia and a lazarus pit?).

[NeoSamurai]

With the parameters as presented, this battle would depend on several qualifications of those parameters:

-What are the stakes?
-What gadgets are allowable as available?

For stakes--that comes down to sheer will and drive of both men.

If any gadget is allowable, then Bats. Batman has several items (if all gadgets are allowed) that deal with shorting out electronic devices (minor EMP devices, etc), explosives, acid pellets, etc.

And Batman never fights straightout if he can help it.

Still it would be a tough call.

[gewing]

I for one would never buy the comic. I tried reading "the Authority" and decided it wasn't worth my time.

Maybe there were good things there.

I didn't see them.

[Rick R Mortis]

Batman has been aorund since, what, 1938. He;s probably the second or third most famous superhero in the world (Behind Supes and possibly Spide). Most people say "Who" when you mention the Midnighter. Justl ook at htis thread.

In twenty years people will be reading Batman comics, wathcing Batman cartoons or discussing batman movies. And they will stioll be going "who" whenever oyum ention the Midnighter. Unless its discussion of the mpost over-rated comics of the early 21st century.

So, by silly law, Batman wins.

Rick R.

[Hugh Neilson]

In twenty years people will be reading Batman comics, wathcing Batman cartoons or discussing batman movies. And they will stioll be going "who" whenever oyum ention the Midnighter. Unless its discussion of the mpost over-rated comics of the early 21st century.

So, by silly law, Batman wins.

I would propose to call this the "Fables Principal".

[Hopefully that's more recognizeable than my previous Grimjack reference - and Gaunt would clean Midnighter's clock too Fire, I believe you've met Gasoline - I'll just leave you two to get reacquainted :) ]

[death tribble]

The Midnighter beats Batman regardless of any gadget Batman might use. The Midnighter can predict anyway that an opponent can attack him and counter accordingly.
Superman would have more of an edge, faster speed and unusual weaknesses. But Batman ? No contest I am afraid.

[Wanderer]

Batman has been aorund since, what, 1938. He;s probably the second or third most famous superhero in the world (Behind Supes and possibly Spide). Most people say "Who" when you mention the Midnighter. Justl ook at htis thread.

In twenty years people will be reading Batman comics, wathcing Batman cartoons or discussing batman movies. And they will stioll be going "who" whenever oyum ention the Midnighter. Unless its discussion of the mpost over-rated comics of the early 21st century.

So, by silly law, Batman wins.

Rick R.

If we invoke fanboyish arguments like respective title popularity, of course Batman beats Midnighter, Spiderman beats Silver Surfer, Punisher beats Power Girl and Daredevil beats Miracleman. Writer's fiat from a sufficiently doped author can set up even the most hilariously improbable outcome to the most outclassed confrontation ever (see "Spiderman beats Firelord" crap).

[Lord Mhoram]

How about Karate Kid vs Midnighter?

Someone said that one very well a while ago in the ultimate fighter thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22804) :




Midnighter belongs on the list, and would easily beat most who are on the list, but he would have no chance vs. Karate Kid. He'd observe KK tearing people like Captain America apart effortlessly, and his battle computer would run 1,000,000 combat scenarios in a split second - and he'd be stunned to see himself losing in every one of those scenarios Even the ones that begin with "in this scenario, Karate Kid is blindfolded, bound and has boat anchors chained to his feet."

[Lord Mhoram]

[Hopefully that's more recognizeable than my previous Grimjack reference - and Gaunt would clean Midnighter's clock too Fire, I believe you've met Gasoline - I'll just leave you two to get reacquainted :) ]

Gaunt would just lead him on a merry chase through Cinosure until they get to a place where the combat computer wouldn't work - then your line. :)

[Susano]

Gaunt would just lead him on a merry chase through Cinosure until they get to a place where the combat computer wouldn't work - then your line. :)

Oh hell yeah. Of better yet, to some place where the combat computer would rebel, and then you get to see Midnighter rip himself apart.


OTOH: I liked the initial run of Authority, which was up until Jenny Spark died. Then the whole "we can make a better world" concept was replaced with "we can do what ever we want." It was a brutal world and certainly what you'd get if one combined Dark Champions morality with Galactic Champions power levels.

[Victim]

The Midnighter beats Batman regardless of any gadget Batman might use. The Midnighter can predict anyway that an opponent can attack him and counter accordingly.


So what? I'm not going to deny that Midnighter's battlecomputer is a huge advantage. But it's not an "I win" button either. There are a few simple principles that explain why: game theory and decision tree analysis already attempt to deal with perfect and imperfect information. Even with perfect information, you aren't guarenteed a win, or even the best possible outcome. And then there's perceptual issues, or in some respects Garbage in, Garbage out.

[Vorsch]

it also dosent help if the other guy is faster stronger and more skilled.

I can tell a 4 year old exactly how im going to beat him, and even with this perfect knowledge his lack of physical ability means hes going to lose.

Batman has no chance in any incarnation, even bat-god, in a straight fight, even if midnighter didnt have the computer hes still a master MA with superhuman stats ie whatever batman has +15 say.

Raw power is actually a advantage. Thats why Karate Kid seem so stupid, no amount of skill, no matter how perfect physically, allows you to take on a kryptonian who has mountain pushing str and lightspeed reactions as well as almost complet invulnerability to damage.

Even midnighter is outclassed and beaten by some opponents, why cant batman?

[NeoSamurai]

[QUOTE=death tribble]The Midnighter beats Batman regardless of any gadget Batman might use. The Midnighter can predict anyway that an opponent can attack him and counter accordingly.
[QUOTE]

But such technology as possessed by Midnighter is only as good as the information available to him--if he doesn't know what tricks Bats available, most of the scenarios he develops would be obsolete against Batman. The computer program cannot read minds.

Additionally, despite the amount of scenario review that Midnighter has available, a decision has to be made as to which to react to. Most computer prediction/scenario analytical programs depend on highest probability or most likelihood of an action to occur. The User still needs to make a decision based off that information. So, any decision that Midnighter makes using his tactical computer is dependent on how Midnighter views most probable results.

Then there is the point that Batman has embraced the martial aspect of combat into his being. This is not so much the metaphysical but psychological aspect of martial arts--the "no mind" principle of letting the body act without discernable thought. This suggests that Batman's actions are not telegraphed (as is indicative of thinking of what move to use) but flow from his nature.

Another factor to consider is the use of the cape. There is a reason for Batman to wear the cape other than because its theatric/psychological value. The cape is designed to hide Batman's motions, to allow him to strike from surprise and to suggest that he is bigger or smaller in girth than what others may think. This gives Bat's the added advantage of misinformation.

This gives Batman more of a fighting chance when you consider his tactical use of his gadgets. As much as I dislike bats being portrayed as a man-god, he has the capabilities of putting up a very bloody and violent fight against Midnighter.

[Phil]

But such technology as possessed by Midnighter is only as good as the information available to him--if he doesn't know what tricks Bats available, most of the scenarios he develops would be obsolete against Batman. The computer program cannot read minds.
Well, actually the point of it is that - effectively - it does. It basically brain scans, a pseudo-scientific martial arts telepathy.



Additionally, despite the amount of scenario review that Midnighter has available, a decision has to be made as to which to react to. Most computer prediction/scenario analytical programs depend on highest probability or most likelihood of an action to occur.

I think you're confusing a comic-book science cybernetic quantum brain computer with a good old fashioned silicon device. Think less IBM and more Brainiac / Prometheus.


Then there is the point that Batman has embraced the martial aspect of combat into his being. This is not so much the metaphysical but psychological aspect of martial arts--the "no mind" principle of letting the body act without discernable thought. This suggests that Batman's actions are not telegraphed (as is indicative of thinking of what move to use) but flow from his nature.
Erm, what?! Bats is a good fighter. Depending on whether its JLA or his own lines, he may be better than that. But he's beaten often enough by fairly ordinary gooks. I'm reminded of a fantastic Legends of the Dark Knight, illustrated by one of my favourite 2000AD alumni, Colin MacNeil, in which he is on the verge of being soundly beaten by a Russian sailor armed with a boathook.

Personally, I do hate threads like this, but feel obliged to chip in! As a lifelong Bats fan, I'll defend his ability to beat pretty much anyone in the DCU given (as mentioned above) his 'schtick' of allowing preparation time. But Midnighter is not of the DCU, he's the Authority, and they are all around the Supes power-level without the kryptonite problem. Just check out the Tri-Stat Authority write-ups and weep... Or, to put in Hero terms, Midnighter has higher (super-human levels) STR, DEX, CON, BOD, EGO, PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, STUN.

[Korvar]

If Bats were able to work out the existence of Midnighter's battle computer (or if he conveniently monologues it all, as he usually seems to), then I wonder if Bats could beat him by deliberately taking non-optimal actions, thus confusing the computer...

[Vorsch]

In Chess a optimal strategy against a winning position opponent is slow death

Sub optimal strategies - are lossing quicker

A strategy designed to fake a apponent is not sub optimal.

Sorry but midnighters quantum battle computer,allows him to choose the best strategy ( for which he is physically capable ) against any action. In effect he fights the battle a million million times and merely choses the one he wins in as the correct reality .

If thats not the case then its not a Quantum computer.

[racoffin]

Actually, Midnighter has been beaten by a relative normal in the past.

In Stormwatch: Team Achillies (the exact issue escapes me), one of the team members uses a viral-type attack to disable all of Midnighter's enhancements. His combat computer, strength, speed, and more are all cybernetic enhancements. Without those, he isn't much of a fighter at all. His opponent took the opportunity to completely destroy Midnighter, breaking bones, and leaving him in a small, bloody pile.

As an aside, for those who haven't read it, Team Achillies is a group set up specifically to take down super-powered beings. And they pretty much handed the Authority their rears. So if they can do it, Batman most certainly can and will, given enough time and if he lives to escape the first fight.

[nexus]

Actually, Midnighter has been beaten by a relative normal in the past.

In Stormwatch: Team Achillies (the exact issue escapes me), one of the team members uses a viral-type attack to disable all of Midnighter's enhancements. His combat computer, strength, speed, and more are all cybernetic enhancements. Without those, he isn't much of a fighter at all. His opponent took the opportunity to completely destroy Midnighter, breaking bones, and leaving him in a small, bloody pile.

As an aside, for those who haven't read it, Team Achillies is a group set up specifically to take down super-powered beings. And they pretty much handed the Authority their rears. So if they can do it, Batman most certainly can and will, given enough time and if he lives to escape the first fight.

Well, yeah. If you can shut down all of Midnighter's abilities and enhancments he's easy to beat. Its doing so that can be tough. :)

[Vorsch]

I forgot Batman is the equal of a a goverment angency, sorry i appologise,superior to a goverment agency.

Just cos he owns a mega corp dosent mean he can do what he wants technically. As most write ups have it he does all his science work himself, i mean to say who do you contract out for BAT gadgets?

Team Achilles just exemplifies why super wouldnt even bother existing, oh you exist we can kill you. wow there super

and everone else is a target, oh but wait its run by normals, menton takes over...or whoever.

[freakboy6117]

bats not only invents his own stuff takes teh best toyus from his own massive mega cvorps R&D department but laso contracts out to Ted Kord the blue beetle and i think owns a large share in star labs( for nifty thingsh villains have toyed with)

[Watchdog]

If the power levels of their respective boyfriends enter into the equation, I have to give it to Midnighter.

[Blue]

I forgot Batman is the equal of a a goverment angency, sorry i appologise,superior to a goverment agency.

Just cos he owns a mega corp dosent mean he can do what he wants technically. As most write ups have it he does all his science work himself, i mean to say who do you contract out for BAT gadgets?

Team Achilles just exemplifies why super wouldnt even bother existing, oh you exist we can kill you. wow there super

and everone else is a target, oh but wait its run by normals, menton takes over...or whoever.
I always found it funny that there weren't a bunch of scientists sitting around out there, watching the news, and saying, "Hey, the turbo on that car looks alot like the one I developed at Wayne" and "That Batarang he uses reminds me a lot of the metal we developed at Wayne."

Any of thousands of his employees should have had a few good guesses at who Batman was.

[Phil]

I always found it funny that there weren't a bunch of scientists sitting around out there, watching the news, and saying, "Hey, the turbo on that car looks alot like the one I developed at Wayne" and "That Batarang he uses reminds me a lot of the metal we developed at Wayne."


Depends who the author is, but there's still that 'theory' that batman has never actually been photographed. A claim which frankly seems ridiculous given how high profile he has been through the years, but then all of DCs long-running heroes suffer a little bit from choose-your-own-continuity. :)

[Wanderer]

If the power levels of their respective boyfriends enter into the equation, I have to give it to Midnighter.

Well, if Apollo enters the equation Bats would be handed the fragments of his ass no matter how much prep time and contingency planes he gets. No kryptonite here... if this however brings a general JLA vs. Authority brawl... dunno. So many variables (including the precise rooster of the JLA). Since Apollo vs. Supes and Hawksmoor vs. WW probably neutralize each other, it hangs on whether either Flash & GL or Engineer and Doctor get to place the decisive blow (especially Flash and the Doctor: both have the potential to shift the balance decisively). Also if, and which incarnation of, Jenny enters the fray (Jenny Quantum is automatic victory for Authority, unless JLA gets some equivalent powerhouse like Cap. Marvel). The first truly satisfying outcome of JLA vs. Authority: Plastic Man gets head ripped in the first turn, Aquaman gets the hook up his @$$.

[Markdoc]

OTOH: I liked the initial run of Authority, which was up until Jenny Spark died. Then the whole "we can make a better world" concept was replaced with "we can do what ever we want."

Yep - it's worth noting that that was when the original creative team bailed, basically saying, "OK, we're done with this storyline now". Since then it's been all downhill (and on a luge, yet).

cheers, Mark

[Eyendasky80]

Yep - it's worth noting that that was when the original creative team bailed, basically saying, "OK, we're done with this storyline now". Since then it's been all downhill (and on a luge, yet).

cheers, Mark

Brubaker's doing a nice job, it's the first time in four or five years I've bothered to buy the book.

[casualplayer]

Brubaker's doing a nice job, it's the first time in four or five years I've bothered to buy the book.

And even Brubaker couldn't think of a way to redeem the Doctor after Millar fubar-ed him. Millar turned Jeroen into the character that you couldn't remember why you would want in your game.

[Broblawsky]

The first truly satisfying outcome of JLA vs. Authority: Plastic Man gets head ripped in the first turn, Aquaman gets the hook up his @$$.

In a fight between, say, Midnighter or Hawksmoore and Aquaman, I'm damn well betting on the guy who can lift a city block, run 200 mph, and is bulletproof.

And Plastic Man is flat-out immortal and transmutation-proof, incidentally. No one on the Authority can actually do anything permanent to him.

Frankly, except for the Doctor, everyone on the JLA is a lot more powerful than the Authority.

[Iuz the Evil]

In a fight between, say, Midnighter or Hawksmoore and Aquaman, I'm damn well betting on the guy who can lift a city block, run 200 mph, and is bulletproof.

I'd bet on him too, but Hawksmoore is way stronger than you make him out to be in proximity to urban areas... oh, you mean Aquaman? Really?

Um... ok then. YMMV I guess.

[KA.]

I have not read any Batman in years, and the only "Authority" I have read was actually Stormwatch, so I do not in any way consider myself having an expert opinion in this matter.

That being said, the "My combat computer can blah blah blah . . ." sounds like a Special Effect to me, not a Power.

My question is, What is on the Character Sheet?

+6 SPD vs. Mooks?
10 Overall Combat Levels?

I mean if Midnighter's GM (well, Writer) wants to say "He is the God of Combat and wins every fight because I say so!" that is fine, but if he is entering the 'game' then he has to be built on points like every other character.

If the argument is: Midnighter is built on 1000 points and Batman is built on 500 points, and since they have basically the same build, except Batman 'wasted' a bunch of points on Skills, Contacts, etc., then I guess the fight goes to Midnighter.

But you don't get to win just by having an SFX of "Infallible Combat Computer".

You may as well build a 100 point NPC Superhero with the SFX of "My Power Automatically kills Midnighter no matter what he does."

KA.

[Beastial]

Having read Authority for pretty much the whole run (I'm not much of a critic, I just like Large Scale Violence, which the Authority has provided me in spades), and having read quite a bit of Bat-lore, I formally proclaim myself uber-Authority over this thread.

Pun intended.

I'm afraid Batman's life would be brutally cut short. The fight would last as long as Midnighter wanted it to last, and would end with Bats dead. The Authority is very much a "take no prisoners" organization. And things would stay that way for at least an issue or two... until someone managed to ressurect Bats, then he'd do the whole "prep for battle" thing and fight midnighter in a slightly-less-lopsided battle ending with Midnighter in a super-prison somewhere... until he decided to say "something clever... like 'door'".

A previous poster mentioned the battle where Midnighter butchered a thinly-veiled copy of the X-Men. That thin veil was a gender-swap and some different costumes. That's it. Funny stuff. In that battle, mightnighter caved Colossus-chick's head in with a single blow (with a staff)... establishing his STR in the "way the heck up there" range. 50 at least, with plenty of MA DC's piled on to boot. This was not an HKA, but it still one-shotted a brick.

And I'm still waiting for The Engineer to give Midnighter and Apollo (both cyborgs acording to a panel in their origin story back in the stormwatch days) a Mega Upgrade... any tech built prior to "place each atom where I want" really doesn't hold a candle to anything built afterward. Go check out "The Diamond Age" by Neil Stephenson (an actual book!) for some ideas on what The Engineer ought to be capable of. Machines that can fit through your pores can do pretty much anything they want to your insides, for good or ill.

If we're looking for someone interesting for Midnighter to fight, I'd recommend Spider-man. Both have superhuman reflexes and strength. Both have "unconventional methods" for avoiding attacks (spider sense vs combat computer). I think S-M would eventually fall simply because Midnighter isn't reluctant to spill blood, while Spider-man would work within ethical limits... on the other hand, Spidey recently got an upgrade of his own, so perhaps things would be in his favor.


Of course the deciding factor is simply who's book the fight took place in. Home field advantage and all that.

[Phil]

Having read Authority for pretty much the whole run (I'm not much of a critic, I just like Large Scale Violence, which the Authority has provided me in spades), and having read quite a bit of Bat-lore, I formally proclaim myself uber-Authority over this thread.
My credentials read similarly and my conclusion is the same. Agreement of two - doesnt that mean we can shut this thread down now? ;)

Dont think Spidey has sufficient CSLs to handle Midnighter, but Midnighter - like Bats and, within the Authority, Hawksmoor - can seem to have quite wildly differing power levels.

[nexus]

As much as I like Batman and overall, dislike Midnighter, this would be a battle Batman "couldn't" win without writer fiat in a major way. Maybe against the Stormwwatch Midnighter, but not The Authority version who, like all the other characters is Godlike bordering on ridiculous.

[Phil]

As much as I like Batman and overall, dislike Midnighter, this would be a battle Batman "couldn't" win without writer fiat in a major way. Maybe against the Stormwwatch Midnighter, but not The Authority version who, like all the other characters is Godlike bordering on ridiculous.

To some extent the problem is caused, I think, by Apollo. He began as so much more powerful than the rest of the Authority, there was a kind of escalation to bring everyone closer to his level. (Well, OK, the most powerful is The Doctor, but his extreme weakness to presence attacks, drug addiction frequently leading to incapacitation and general wimpiness gave the writers plenty of scope to write him out of any given conflict).

The tri-stat game has actually made a pretty good fist of making the Authority characters points-balanced with each other. Except for Swift of course, who by their exalted standards, er, sucks! (in other words, she's a perfectly reasonable and not over-powered superhero character, the only one of the Authority who could comfortably slide into mainstream DC and Marvel without any major ructions)

[WhammeWhamme]

As much as I like Batman and overall, dislike Midnighter, this would be a battle Batman "couldn't" win without writer fiat in a major way. Maybe against the Stormwwatch Midnighter, but not The Authority version who, like all the other characters is Godlike bordering on ridiculous.

Uhm...

If you're using the version of the Midnighter from the Authority, you HAVE to use BatGod, since that's the relative equivalent (i.e. what you get when you put the character on a high powered team).

Yeah.

[dalton]

[

A previous poster mentioned the battle where Midnighter butchered a thinly-veiled copy of the X-Men. That thin veil was a gender-swap and some different costumes. That's it. Funny stuff. In that battle, mightnighter caved Colossus-chick's head in with a single blow (with a staff)... establishing his STR in the "way the heck up there" range. 50 at least, with plenty of MA DC's piled on to boot. This was not an HKA, but it still one-shotted a brick.


The majority of the Authority enemies are thinly-veiled copy of others super-hero or super-villain.
In other issues they had killed the legion of super-heroes and all the marvel and dc supervillain without sweat.
But this is just the author that say: My hero are better than yours... ha ha ha. Not that the hero/villain parodied is so easy to kill.
I don't consider their victory against the gender-switched x-men, the americans ( the copy of the avengers) as an indicatation of the outcome in any battle against the original, just the writer power trip.

[Blue]

You may as well build a 100 point NPC Superhero with the SFX of "My Power Automatically kills Midnighter no matter what he does."
Heeeeyyy.... "Power Automatically Defeats Dr. Destroyer". I like it.

To the Munchkin-Cave!

[Hugh Neilson]

Heeeeyyy.... "Power Automatically Defeats Dr. Destroyer". I like it.

To the Munchkin-Cave!

Hmm...how much for a VPP that can only take "Power Automatically defeates" powers?

[shaunclinton]

Speaking from the point of view of someone who's read everything featuring Midnighter, and who has read the Bat-titles and JLA for the past 15 years a few things seem wrong here to me.

First up, JLA Batman has to be used here, as he's the character Midnighter is based on, and thus the one that is suitable for a fight.

Secondly, the Authority isn't as powerful as some people make them out to be here. Especially not Midnighter, who can't do much damage to any real bricks. The X-men rip offs don't really count as they suffer from the total-lack-of-resistant defences that all Authority villains have (or are we to believe Teuton [and thus, presumably, Apollo] could be killed by a drill/nailgun/whatever it was to the back of the head?) Midnighter could not hurt Superman, Jonn or Wonder Woman without Kryptonite, Matches or... well, whatever you use!!! In a straight JLA/Authority fight the JLA win most times, excepting creative actions on the part of The Doctor and The Engineer. And of course, Jenny Quantum!

Third. Midnighter isn't completely infallible, nor invincible. His enhancements cannot read minds, that's a fact. He is fast, but does not possess much in the way of Speedster abilities. He is strong, but despite his strength's seeming changeability, it never reaches brick like levels.

Fourth. Batman's utiltiy belt contains a lot of useful gear for this scenario. Midnighter is certainly a master of up close and personal fighting, but batarangs, nerve gas and the like go a long way towards evening the odds.

I reckon that in the initial encounter Batman takes a bit of a punishing beating, but escapes with his life (for those wondering how, I'm sure a guy who can hide from Superman won't have any problems with Midnighter) plans a bit and returns to defeat Midnighter using ranged attacks and/or by disabling his enhancements. I'm no doubt sure if there was a third contest Midnighter would somehow swing it and so on ad infinitum.

[nexus]

In a Batman comic:

Batman would take a horrible beating from the Midnighter, manage to escape and recuperate while studying Midnighter's actions (probably acting as a very bloody vigilante). There would be some "Am I better than him?" Angst in there somewhere (Granted, Midnighter does actually deal the deranged psychopaths plaguing the city in a more pernenant fashion...). He would devise (yank out of his butt) something to overwhelm the combat computer (basically "cheating") and emerge victorious (Send Midnighter to the revolving door prison to show up again later).


In The Authority. Midnighter would punch a thinly disguised Batman clone in the head. His head would then explode in a shower of gore. Midnighter would make some plucky comment before or after. Of course this "Batman" would be a brutal racist stooge that beats up on the "Helpless poor", minorities, woman, student protestors and jaywalkers so we'd all get a good laugh out his humiliating and effortless defeat. The rest of the JLA clon- "homages" would shortly follow of course.

:)

[Rick R Mortis]

In The Authority. Midnighter would punch a thinly disguised Batman clone in the head. His head would then explode in a shower of gore. Midnighter would make some plucky comment before or after. Of course this "Batman" would be a brutal racist stooge that beats up on the "Helpless poor", minorities, woman, student protestors and jaywalkers so we'd all get a good laugh out his humiliating and effortless defeat. The rest of the JLA clon- "homages" would shortly follow of course.

:)

..and this is why, if I ever do run a serious superhero game, I will have a villain team who are thinly vield versions of the Authroity. True, they're probably gonna be one-off villains, but...

[FenrisUlf]

Wait, if all Authority villains are so alike (and all die so fast) then where does the tension required for drama arise in combat? Or are the fight scenes just sort of there, with the 'real action' happening on another level (i.e., social commentary/criticism, satire, whatever)?

[nexus]

Wait, if all Authority villains are so alike (and all die so fast) then where does the tension required for drama arise in combat? Or are the fight scenes just sort of there, with the 'real action' happening on another level (i.e., social commentary/criticism, satire, whatever)?

Pretty much. The Authority themselves are very rarely portrayed as being in any danger in their fights. They tend to crush their opposition almost effortlessly. Bystanders die by the droves though, so there is the life saving aspect to add some dramatic tension.

There's also political tension and some would say moral (though I see the moral issues as being pretty much as white washed as they are in the Silver Age just in a different direction).

To be fair there have been a few villians that were powerful enough to challenge such as Seth and the evil ex Doctor. But most of their battles are complete butt whupping along the lines of what would happen if the Justice League fought Static Shock's rogue's gallery.

[NeoSamurai]

Midnighter will most likely have Precognitive Aim type ability listed from UNTIL Superpowers database which would give him a +6 to his OCV and Precog Dodge giving him a +8 OCV. He would also possess super strength, and lightning reflexes. CSL of 8 points and nearly all martial arts.

Would he have Def. Manuevers?

Bat-god (if that's the version we'd use): would have max human potential in nearly everything (so 20s). A Variable Power Pool utility belt that can only be changed outside of combat (i.e. between encounters/scenes) with several set items. However, if he's allowed to have all his gadgets, that negates the VPP and allows him each gadget as a power. He'd have an 8 CSL and most martial arts. Batman would have Def. Maneuver of at least 2.

Batman has demonstrated to use Acid capsules, lasers, explosives, batarangs (double as knives), Kyrptonian Tech integrated with Apokolptian stuff and his own business designs. He bluffed Darkseid--he can most likely bluff Midnighter's computer.

If it was straight up stats fight...I'd go with Midnighter.

However, Batman cheats and uses his entire environment on Midnighter to get the win. Batman doesn't fight straight face to face.

[NeoSamurai]

forgot to add:

Slade would whoop both of them.

[Susano]

forgot to add:

Slade would whoop both of them.

So would Son Goku. :D

[WhammeWhamme]

Midnighter will most likely have Precognitive Aim type ability listed from UNTIL Superpowers database which would give him a +6 to his OCV and Precog Dodge giving him a +8 OCV. He would also possess super strength, and lightning reflexes. CSL of 8 points and nearly all martial arts.

Would he have Def. Manuevers?

Bat-god (if that's the version we'd use): would have max human potential in nearly everything (so 20s). A Variable Power Pool utility belt that can only be changed outside of combat (i.e. between encounters/scenes) with several set items. However, if he's allowed to have all his gadgets, that negates the VPP and allows him each gadget as a power. He'd have an 8 CSL and most martial arts. Batman would have Def. Maneuver of at least 2.

Batman has demonstrated to use Acid capsules, lasers, explosives, batarangs (double as knives), Kyrptonian Tech integrated with Apokolptian stuff and his own business designs. He bluffed Darkseid--he can most likely bluff Midnighter's computer.

If it was straight up stats fight...I'd go with Midnighter.

However, Batman cheats and uses his entire environment on Midnighter to get the win. Batman doesn't fight straight face to face.

Uhm... no WAY is BatGod straight 20's. Straight 20's is LOW. Straight 30's is closer to the mark, possibly even higher, since this is the DCU he's in, and the upper limit for 'mere' human potential can only be defiend as 'definately lower than a Kryptonian'.

20 is not the highest a human can have. Even a character with "normal characteristic maximums" - which, in a superheroic game, should only apply to power armour and other focus stat enhanced characters - can have 200 strength - the rules allow it.

In Champions terms, I'd give BatGod higher stats than Midnighter. Except maybe STR (probably not STR, actually). He's that good. "Highly Trained Normal" is not a limitation on power in DC, it's a limitation on special effects.

[David Blue]

With Seth and the bad Doctor the point was to set up divine intervention and a cosmically infallible endorsement to further reinforce the rightness of the Authority's position.

Seth: a god figure raises them all, tells them all they've been cruelly dealt with in return for all their (nonexistent) goodness and kindness, and returns them, a risen collective Christ in glory to judge the wicked with a deus ex machina ending. We finish with the usual depraved Authority execution with humiliation, and the Authority bathed in smug satisfaction and cruel glee.

The Bad Doctor: we see further demonstrations of how omnipotent the Doctors' powers and how brilliant his planning is (and how Midnighter enjoys being a boy with a boy in the torture chamber). The Bad Doctor gets a dose of ultimate cosmic conscious, the point of which is for him to realise - and announce infallibly to the reader as deathbed testimony - that he's wrong (like that was news) and the Authority are right. He kneels in shame before their (nonexistent) goodness, and they slaughter him with stage-y contempt. We finish with the Authority bathed in smug satisfaction and cruel pleasure.

When stealing glory involves the Authority in a little superficial suffering, they do a little superficial suffering. For Christs risen, that came with the territory. And one should not under-estimate how much fun the Midnighter and Apollo have with boys getting cruel with boys, particularly Apollo in his favourite role as hunky victim.

The reader's pleasure comes in identifying with the Authority, enjoying their murderous cruelty and irredeemable depravity, and soaking up sanctification and cheap murderous victories over all other notable comic characters - the X-Men, the Avengers, and so on.

They're like Syndrome, killing real heroes so that they can pretend to be heroes, but with the jealous support of the writers etc., who fully identify with them and the moral and political stances they take.

It's a picture of moral Hell, all lies, pride, cruel violence and (often sexual) depravity.

It's why I consider the "beat the Authority" threads pointless in one sense and good and healthy in another. Every Authority fight is rigged, far more than is normal in superhero comics (which is saying a lot). It's like arguing about whether Captain America beats Mephisto in Mephisto's fantasies. Of course not. But at the same time it's great that people have a fundamental desire to see true heroes beat these depraved and evil false heroes. That's morally necessary. Rise to the challenge, I say!

On the good side of the Authority as a series, there's lots of seductive art, plenty of mega-violence, and the energy that only comes when the creators are rocking.

Many creative people seem to hate heroes, and it shows, in games and in comics. For example, White Wolf's hero game was made by people who despised comic book heroes and their uncritical devotees. This kind of attitude gradually turns everything into a bitter grind. The Authority isn't a grind, it's a blast.

And it's tremendously influential.

Someone said, in the thread on DCs Countdown to Infinite Crisis - jeez, does everything have to be an Authority knock-off now? More and more it looks like the straight answer to that is: "Yes it does."

[Beastial]

The undefeatable Bad-god could take ANYONE. Plot? Continuity? Reason? Bah! He resently beat the snot out of Amazo with only Nighthawk as backup (serving as little more than a distraction). C'mon... that's rediculous.

One could argue that this was a cheap knock-off Amazo (no ring or lasso, could be substandard in other areas too)... but it was still Quite Odd that Bats disposed of him so casually.

[Libra]

The Authority, Pah! <Spits>

Bunch of tossers. They call themselves heros?!? Give me the old-fashioned Avengers or the JLA any day. Authority! Hah.

<Looks around in a nervous fashion>

[gewing]

So would Son Goku. :D


Well, If I am the writer, the Power puff Girls put them all in their places. ;)


though since the Midnighter would not be considered human, just an insane cyborg, he would probably be "accidentally" torn apart.

[Vigil]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread so forgive if I'm a bit redundant here.

My thoughts, well it seems that there's a lot of hyperbole in the midnighter camp here and surprisingly little on the Bat side. I've read (and hated) the first 4 Authority trades and I've never seen Midnighter demonstrate half the stuff that's credited to him here. Low level superspeester? Since when? All he seems to be is a foul mouthed yob who hits underpowered supers with no resistant defenses with a steel bar. I think the reason why midnighter seems so hot in the Authority is due to the strikingly low caliber of his opponents. In Champs terms it seems his opposition are about 250 -300 pointers with no resistant defenses. It's easy to seem lethal when you're the one with the HKA and no has armor.

Another problem with Midnighter, this one is conceptual. How would he handle an opponet he's never met before? Obviously his little tactical computer must have info on the people of his world which he uses to coalate his scenarios. What about someone he's never encountered before or who operates on levels he's not familiar with.

Longshot was suggested as being able to screw with his tactics projections.

What about Shatterstar who has Longhshots luck abilties and more MA punch?

Or, what about Dream Girl who fights precognitively?

Or for that matter, what about the ultimate, Nemesis Kid, who'd show Midnighter up as a dimestore copy of the real deal. Could midnighter surpass the abilities of a foe who's ability is to surpass your abilities? I doubt it.

Getting back to Bats, though, I think he has the one element that Midnighter's never seems to have to deal with...determination. Bats just won't give up. midnighters used to underutiliazing his abilites in cake walks over lack lustre foes. Bat's is primo. He's top notch in all levels. A brilliant fighter, tactician, MA, you name it. I think Midnighter might chart out all the physical permuations but that wouldn't account for Bat's will and at that juncture all of scenarios would fall apart and he'd fighting for his life on instinct against the master of fighting for his life on instinct.

Another gent who would clean Midnighter's clock...Captain America. He made short work of Prometheus in the JLA/Avengers crossover and, after all, Prometheus is just the DCU version of Midnighter. I think Cap would show Midnighter the kind of stuff that no tactics computer is capable of dealing with.

Vigil

[Libra]

Friend, you have just said what has been on my mind for ages.

Midnighter is a S&M Pussy Cat. He whales on wee laddies who have barely human abilities, never mind extra-human. I would purely love to see him go up against Batman or Cap. The real articles, not some Lobotimised rip-off.

Cap would clean his clock. And then he'd go out and kick Mr "I kill for Fun and Profit" From Manhattan to Brooklyn without breaking a sweat. And that would be on a bad day.

Batman would jusst beat the c**p out of him.

[Nucleon]

Champions combats assume we are going to be a bit objective and transcend the rage of a little boy insisting "Bang, bang, I got you and you missed, I will not fall down, you fall down, bwaahh!"

The essence of the Authority is not to transcend that. None of their opponents had the opportunity to fight them on "fair" terms, without the writers, like rabid fanboys with political axes to grind, throwing punches to make their/the characters viewpoints right and ultimately victorious.

If you're talking about the Midnighter, or the Authority in general, without gross authorial favouritism - it's not really the Authority.

True, and quite nicely said BTW. Nucleon abhors gratuitous killing and over-arrogance in comics (or any such relents of the Iron Age), but strangely enough, He happen to like the Authority. A lot. It must be the marginal philosophy, the mega scale of the events, or the sheer shock factor. It never leaves one stoic. The Authority is the anti Comic Code Authority.

That being said, Nucleon does not think that the fight would be so quick, nor necessarly on the side of the Mightnighter. Let Him explain why:

Whatever the Mightnighter carries in augmentations, he does not seem so bend on gadgeteery like Batman is. So, Bat have some purpose-built ranged weapons over Midnighter; Gas, explosive charges, batarangs...

Now put these along with the possibility that Midnighter's computer may not be able to sense threats that are not directly aimed to him, such as a brick wall crumbling down on him, the effect of an explosive batarang that registered on Midnighter's computer as "a miss".

Batman won't need any computer to conclude, fast, that he cannot take on the Midnighter directly. At this point, the fight will become strategic and in this game, Bats is IHO superior to his rougher clone.

Plus, it's comics; Human imagination must triumph over the mechanized logics of machine, don't forget that!..

[Iuz the Evil]

Hmmm... It'd be like this. Batman and the Midnighter come face to face, then a strange anomaly rips the fabric of their universes apart, merging them into a strange... Amalgam!

The Batnighter would then beat himself senseless... while Apolloman wonders at his strange conflicting emotions. Yeah? No? Nevermind. That's just silly. It would be ridiculous to just cobble together two comic publisher universes into some crazy amalgam just for shock and sales, they'd never do it.

[Vigil]

Never, ever. Why to even contemplate two such great publishing houses doing something so crass and commercial is...unthinkable...no, blasphemous!

[Libra]

Iuz: Two Words - Blessed Weapons.

If you ever mention that idea again I am seriously going to trigger an Intracene war between all you evil, depraved Gods, Demons, Devils and Lawyers.

[Superskrull]

Hmmm... It'd be like this. Batman and the Midnighter come face to face, then a strange anomaly rips the fabric of their universes apart, merging them into a strange... Amalgam!

The Batnighter would then beat himself senseless... while Apolloman wonders at his strange conflicting emotions. Yeah? No? Nevermind. That's just silly. It would be ridiculous to just cobble together two comic publisher universes into some crazy amalgam just for shock and sales, they'd never do it.

Well, I'll be super-amalgamated!

[Wanderer]

Plus, it's comics; Human imagination must triumph over the mechanized logics of machine, don't forget that!..

yep, except when a character has poured so much effort, ingenuity, toil and sweat in developing or bonding to his personal technological (or magical) augmentation, they don't *feel* like external, cold tools anymore. Tony Stark's armor, Beta Ray Bill's hammer, and Apollo's, Engineer's or Midnighter's nanotech augmentations feel like a part of them, like an arm or leg.

[Broblawsky]

yep, except when a character has poured so much effort, ingenuity, toil and sweat in developing or bonding to his personal technological (or magical) augmentation, they don't *feel* like external, cold tools anymore. Tony Stark's armor, Beta Ray Bill's hammer, and Apollo's, Engineer's or Midnighter's nanotech augmentations feel like a part of them, like an arm or leg.

I'd argue that Midnighter's abilities are a tool, in and of themselves - the entire point is that they think for him in a fight. That's why he got punked, pwned and <insert pop-culture phrase for absolutely devasted> by Jukko in Stormwatch: Team Achilles.

[Vigil]

In Champs terms I think Midnighter's augmentations are just SFX. I don't think he'd get any focus or OIHID limits for them.

Having read as much of The Authority as I have, it seems that the difference between Midnighter and Bat-Man or Cap, is that Midnighter is NOT an original thinker as the others are. He relies purely on what his computer tells him and it's got him ass kicked before (esp. against Seth I think it's name was).

Plus, look at the level of opposition and I think that says it all. For the most part, Midnighter is used to dealing with foes which are significantly less powerful than he is. Bat-Man and esp. Cap are used to taking on the biggest and baddest in their realities (Darkseid, The Crime Syndicate, Thanos, Korvac respectively) and finding a way to win, no matter what the odds. theyre brilliant, original thinkers and tacticians.

Plus, to paraphrase what Cap said in the JLA/Avengers crossover when he was kicking Prometheus' ass "there's nothing like experience." which is what Cap and Bats have in droves.

Getting back to a previous point, it's been suggested that Midnighter's tactics engine is quasi-telepathic. Reciprocally, it seems that virtually no one in The Authority's continuity has any Mental Defense. If this is so, I could see him havng no end of problems or being unable to "read" opponents with significant mental defense. Guys like Cap, Daredevil and Thor would have no "tells" for him to work from.

Another one who would screw him up because of the above and because he's capabale of operating on and fighting at a "subconcious" level is Crimson Commando.

And what about Taskmaster?


Vigil

[Wanderer]

I'd argue that Midnighter's abilities are a tool, in and of themselves - the entire point is that they think for him in a fight. That's why he got punked, pwned and <insert pop-culture phrase for absolutely devasted> by Jukko in Stormwatch: Team Achilles.

Or why Regis, who is telephatic and can read Midnighter's battle-comp's output, can anticipate him and hand him his ass. Idem for the renegade doctor, Seth, or the cult leader in the second series, who have truckload cosmic VPPs and can counter, neutralize, or anticipate his augmentations in so many ways.

[Broblawsky]

Mr Terrific would hand Midnighter his own ass, thanks to his "invisibility to machines" tech.

[nexus]

Midnighter's power concept does seem to be unless you can evade or shut down that combat computer he's invincible. But once you do that you can beat him like a drum.

[freakboy6117]

that's midnighters problem he suffers from superman syndrome. just like superman in the justice league carton he has to be beaten up by easily the villain to show just how powerful that villain is.

[nexus]

Exactly. My group called it "Worfism" but the idea is the same.

[Vigil]

As I said before, I think Midnighter's "aura of invincibility" is mostly smoke and mirrors caused by the incredible ineptitude of his opposition. Put him up against, say, Thanos for instance and all the simulations in the world won't make a damn bit of difference. "Hey look at all the ways this guy can kill me! And I can't do dick about it!" That is, of course, except for the sim where Cappy and Warlock step in to save his sorry ass.


Vigil

[shaunclinton]

Personally I thought Regis (big blue guy in Authority) beat the snot out of Midnighter because the non-log-floggin' hero couldn't actually hurt him.

Also, I second the sheer ineptitude of Midnighter's opposition. Who of note has he actually defeated? Regis, butt kicked. Seth, butt kicked. Seth, butt kicked again. He only ever beats up on rent-a-goons and no-name supers... and I class the replacement Authority in the no-name-super category.

Didn't Lobo hand him his ass?

[Nucleon]

that's midnighters problem he suffers from superman syndrome. just like superman in the justice league carton he has to be beaten up by easily the villain to show just how powerful that villain is.

That would be more Appolo. The Midnighter is more seen like the surviving one, in many Authority arcs.

[Nucleon]

Also, I second the sheer ineptitude of Midnighter's opposition. Who of note has he actually defeated? Regis, butt kicked. Seth, butt kicked. Seth, butt kicked again. He only ever beats up on rent-a-goons and no-name supers...

Well, there was that rough Marvel parody (complete with a cariratural Stan Lee...) where the midnighter takes on all the X-mutants by himself...

One thing you need to keep in mind while reading The Authority is the second degree. Their heroes themselves are pretty much bad parodies of the genre, pushed to extremes. Often, even a fan of the book would read it in the hope that some of these icons will get "a good one this time".

Everybody was glad when Kev shot the snot out of them some times ago.

[Darknight]

Batman maybe not easily, but still Batman.
First off Batman relies totaly on training and experience and sheer determination not cybernetic enhancements. After an analises off Midnighter's fighting style Batman would deduce Midnighter's "enhancements" and would nuetrelize them leaving him an simple goon. And we all know how well and easily he defeats goons!

[Blue]

Necromancer!

Quick, bury this thread before anyone notices and starts up again!

[Vestnik]

So, who would win in a fight, Midnighter or Streaky the Super-Cat?

I think Streaky would totally own Midnighter. :)

[Vigil]

Streaky, absolutely.

All the combat implants in the world (and I assume Midnighter has all the combat implants in the world since no one else seems to have any of them) are no match for the wrath of a small, marmalade-colored, tabby who just happens to have Kryptonian-level powers. Maybe Midnighter could calculate all the ways Streaky could scratch his eyes out before he reacts or something similarly lame.

[OddHat]

So, who would win in a fight, Midnighter or Streaky the Super-Cat?

I think Streaky would totally own Midnighter. :)


Streaky, absolutely.

All the combat implants in the world (and I assume Midnighter has all the combat implants in the world since no one else seems to have any of them) are no match for the wrath of a small, marmalade-colored, tabby who just happens to have Kryptonian-level powers. Maybe Midnighter could calculate all the ways Streaky could scratch his eyes out before he reacts or something similarly lame.

Streaky can fly at trans-light velocities. He could reduce Midnighter to a red mist before Midnighter's computer recognized that Streaky was there.

I might buy that issue. ;)

[Vigil]

Hell, I'd buy two copies. Maybe three.

[wrestlinggeek]

You know what I would love to see? Midnighter comes up against a foe he absolutely can not beat. No matter how many times he runs the battle in his combat computer, it shows him getting killed. No matter what he tries. He simply can't win. How does he cope with this? A true hero would stand his ground and do every thing he possibly could to stop (or at least delay) the bad guy. I see the Midnighter running away screaming. Possibly with tears flowing down his face and a brown stain forming on the back of his pants.

[LoresLost]

Note, I believe in the comic Captain Atom: Armageddon vol. 6, a 'Void' possessed Captain Atom fried both Midnighter and Apollo in two frames (and Jenny Sparks as well). After defeating rest of the Authority, Majestic, and the Wild Cats in previous comics, just as the Good Captain. This lead to an appearent reboot of the that Universe...

[wrestlinggeek]

Note, I believe in the comic Captain Atom: Armageddon vol. 6, a 'Void' possessed Captain Atom fried both Midnighter and Apollo in two frames (and Jenny Sparks as well). After defeating rest of the Authority, Majestic, and the Wild Cats in previous comics, just as the Good Captain. This lead to an appearent reboot of the that Universe...

Go Captain Atom! He was already one of my top 20 favorite comic characters, now he's entered the top 5.

[Susano]

You know what I would love to see? Midnighter comes up against a foe he absolutely can not beat. No matter how many times he runs the battle in his combat computer, it shows him getting killed. No matter what he tries. He simply can't win. How does he cope with this? A true hero would stand his ground and do every thing he possibly could to stop (or at least delay) the bad guy. I see the Midnighter running away screaming. Possibly with tears flowing down his face and a brown stain forming on the back of his pants.

Oh, you mean what would happen if Midnighter came up against Son Goku.

[Vondy]

You know what I would love to see? Midnighter comes up against a foe he absolutely can not beat. No matter how many times he runs the battle in his combat computer, it shows him getting killed. No matter what he tries. He simply can't win. How does he cope with this? A true hero would stand his ground and do every thing he possibly could to stop (or at least delay) the bad guy. I see the Midnighter running away screaming. Possibly with tears flowing down his face and a brown stain forming on the back of his pants.

Midnighter Computer: "I propose a new strategy - the Bat Signal."

In my book: Wannabe loses to Genuine Article.

[KA.]

You know what I would love to see? Midnighter comes up against a foe he absolutely can not beat. No matter how many times he runs the battle in his combat computer, it shows him getting killed. No matter what he tries. He simply can't win. How does he cope with this? A true hero would stand his ground and do every thing he possibly could to stop (or at least delay) the bad guy. I see the Midnighter running away screaming. Possibly with tears flowing down his face and a brown stain forming on the back of his pants.

You know, I could see that as the ending of the second Batman/Midnighter clash (assuming Batman survives the first by fading into the background).
Midnighter is walking down a dark alley, Batman is watching from above and triggers a small device on his Utility Belt.
Batman jumps down and lands near the Midnighter, and proceeds to beat the crap out of him.
Since this is no doubt some sort of JLA/Authority crossover, Superman shows up and asks "How did you beat him? I thought he had a battle computer that could calculate every possible outcome?"
Batman points to his belt and says: "He does. And this sent out a signal that convinced it that he was going to lose."

KA.

[freakboy6117]

i did rather enjoy the captain atom armageddon series the wildcats oplaying six degrees of kevin bacon to decide who fought captain atom first was fun. and the authorities hobby of killing alternate universe hitlers has to be the benchmark of iron-ageness

[Twilight]

You know, I could see that as the ending of the second Batman/Midnighter clash (assuming Batman survives the first by fading into the background).
Midnighter is walking down a dark alley, Batman is watching from above and triggers a small device on his Utility Belt.
Batman jumps down and lands near the Midnighter, and proceeds to beat the crap out of him.
Since this is no doubt some sort of JLA/Authority crossover, Superman shows up and asks "How did you beat him? I thought he had a battle computer that could calculate every possible outcome?"
Batman points to his belt and says: "He does. And this sent out a signal that convinced it that he was going to lose."

KA.

Much easier I think to send a signal to the computer that prevented it from saying anything. From what I've heard about the Midnighter he relies on that battle computer so much he'd probably freak right out if it stopped working on him.

[Haerandir]

I concede that Streaky could probably take the Midnighter, if he could be convinced to bother. He is a cat, after all. Cats are notoriously lazy. Also contrary. The mere knowledge that some people want him to beat up the Midnighter will probably be enough to convince him to sit in a corner washing his face, instead.

[assault]

You know what I would love to see? Midnighter comes up against a foe he absolutely can not beat. No matter how many times he runs the battle in his combat computer, it shows him getting killed. No matter what he tries. He simply can't win.

Sounds like a job for Karate Kid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate_Kid_(comics) ).

This has been suggested in a similar thread in the past, of course.

Midnighter couldn't even win if the fight started with KK at the bottom of a river encased in concrete, with anchors tied to his feet.

[Funksaw]

The analysis about how Batman would get beat in the first instance, but with time to prepare, would take out Midnighter with a virus is correct, except that Midnighter has no compunctions about killing.

[OzMike]

But could Batman take out Batman? And could Midnighter take out Midnighter?

[Vestnik]

Streaky can fly at trans-light velocities. He could reduce Midnighter to a red mist before Midnighter's computer recognized that Streaky was there.

I might buy that issue. ;)

It would be sweet.

Then again, if Spider-Man can beat Firelord... :)

[input.jack]

The analysis about how Batman would get beat in the first instance, but with time to prepare, would take out Midnighter with a virus is correct, except that Midnighter has no compunctions about killing.

Ive stopped counting how many times Batman has been "killed" and left for dead, only to turn up later.

I also agree with Von D-Man. The original always beats the knock-off.

[Lord Liaden]

This could be an opportunity to finally resolve those rumors that Batman is gay. Unless he just has a thing for boys. :rolleyes:

[Bloodstone]

i did rather enjoy the captain atom armageddon series the wildcats oplaying six degrees of kevin bacon to decide who fought captain atom first was fun. and the authorities hobby of killing alternate universe hitlers has to be the benchmark of iron-ageness

Indeed. And you will note that it ended with Nathaniel disintigrating Apollo and the Midnighter.

So as we have seen there are some opponents that the Midnighter just isn't powerful enough to overcome, battle computer or not.

Batman, however, isn't one of them...

IMO of course.

[Lord Mhoram]

Indeed. And you will note that it ended with Nathaniel disintigrating Apollo and the Midnighter.


Apollo and the Midnighter got disintigrated. Now that is a comic I'd buy. :)

[Lemurion]

Getting back to the original idea:

I think we are mostly agreed that Midnighter would win an initial combat and that Batman would take him on the rematch (or in any other situation where he had time to prepare and presuming he survives the first round).

The question then comes in as to whether Batman could break off the fight before Midnighter killed him. My own thought is that if there is enough cover nearby he probably could, but if they were fighting in the middle of the street it may be impossible.

I don't see Midnighter doing one of his one-punch kills though. Not against Batman.

[FenrisUlf]

Just wondering: if Bats were to try and run from Midnighter, what if MD tried killing or maiming a few civilians to make him stand and fight? The way I understand it, the Midnighter and his pals don't have any real problem with killing "innocents", esp. if they happen to be Americans.

[freakboy6117]

teh authority dont hurt civilians tehy may be iron age but there still heroes.

that's basically the difference between them and the villains in wild storm villains don't care who they kill heroes only kill people who they think deserve it.
The only civilians I.E. not supers or soldiers, the authority have killed are a business man and a spook who basically brainwashed and repeatedly raped the female members of the team oh and a couple of US presidents.

midnighter might threaten that but he wouldn't go through with it on the other hand if he could kill or maim joker or penguin and that would probably keep bats in the fight without midnighter breaking his own ethical guides.

[Niles]

As for this matchup, Midnighter does NOT fight like a person, he fights like a computer. There should be no body language cues besides those physics dictates
Most of any skilled fighter's body language cues are dictated by physics. As for the supposed utility of his tactical computer, interpreting sensory inputs and manuvering a body in a physics ruled 3 dimensional space are things computers are really bad at. Midnighter always benifitted from a large dollop of writers wank. he's dangerous but he's nowhere near invincible.

That said he is still stronger and tougher than Batman, that was enough for Bane the first time.

[Niles]

Aside from Midnighter's super abilities, isn't this match basically like Kasparov vs. Deep Blue?

For a computer playing grandmaster level chess is signifigantly easier than bipedal locomotion.

[Twilight]

Most of any skilled fighter's body language cues are dictated by physics. As for the supposed utility of his tactical computer, interpreting sensory inputs and manuvering a body in a physics ruled 3 dimensional space are things computers are really bad at. Midnighter always benifitted from a large dollop of writers wank. he's dangerous but he's nowhere near invincible.

That said he is still stronger and tougher than Batman, that was enough for Bane the first time.

No, being stronger and tougher and fighting Batman after he was worn out fighting his entire Rogues Gallery over the course of several days was enough for Bane the first time. Stronger and tougher is not enough by itself.

[TheRealVector]

The only thing I need to know is that my character Vector could wipe the floor with Midnighter! :nya:

[Vondy]

And who comes up with the names for these guys, anyways?

[Haerandir]

Warren Ellis, I think.

[Vigil]

As much as I hate to admit this...and I really, really, really, really hate to admit this, I think Midnighter would annihilate Bats before Bats even had a chance to comprehend what was happening, nonetheless react to it.

Remember, and I think this has been stated elsewhere in this thread, Midnighter seems capable of at least Quicklsilver level acceleration and bursts of speed and his agility and reflexes seem to be superior to Spidey's so, plausibly, Bats wouldn't stand a chance. And since Bats would, presumably, be perceived as a "villain" by Midnighter I don't think there'd be enough left of Bats for a rematch after the first half second or so. Bats would be dead before he even perceived what hit him.

Basically, Midnighter is like Deathstroke jacked up on super-steroids then combined with Deathlok for good measure. And we've all seen Deathstroke clean Bats clock on several occassions so there's really no way to deny that Midnighter would annihilate Bats in no time at all.

And I really hate that, too, and utterly despise the Authority but that's, overwhelmingly, the only plausible outcome. And that sucks.

Vigil

[Balabanto]

I normally don't post on these things, but....

I think Midnighter's superhuman abilities are, unfortunately, based on your ability to see your opponent.

If I am Batman, and I see this guy show up, I use the most powerful ability I have to take him down.

I fight dirty.

Cape over head. Kidney punch. Done. Or. Three pounds of force to break a kneecap. This guy's killed thousands of people. That gets around. No walk. No combat.


If I am Midnighter, I try to get Batman's arsenal of special weapons away from him so he doesn't have a chance to throw a cape over my head, or blow me up with gas grenades, etc. Remember, Midnighter's special abilities make him vulnerable to a lot of batman's flash grenades, smoke grenades, and other nasty "futility belt" paphernelia.

So that's the story. Whoever has the best plan and the ability to execute it wins. These two guys are all about the terrain. That's it.

[OzMike]

I think pie could take them both.

[assault]

Batman napalms Midnighter from the Batplane, and says "I normally dislike taking human life, but this guy was a real d*ck".

The Golden Age Batman would have used machine guns, but I figured the Iron Age version would have napalm.

[Tarek]

The Authority is basically a meaner, nastier, uglier version of the JLA. Think "Normal people with superpowers and a vindictive/megalomaniacal streak." They rely on their powers to bring them through trouble, and rarely take the time to think.

That said, one of the Superman comics had Superman vs. a thinly disguised Authority.

Superman won, because he used his brains.

[assault]

I wrote:

Batman napalms Midnighter from the Batplane,

This is thread drift, of course, but I've been struck recently about how big a role the Batplane has played in Batman's career at various points. It seems to have been his big equaliser in a lot of situations. That's interesting, of course, since people usually think of him as the "vigilante on the rooftop".

In a lot of the early Justice League cases, he seems to actually be "the guy in the jet"! I guess that's fair enough: he can fly at supersonic speeds, and blow people up with missiles!

When he actually fought on the ground, he usually seemed to use Judo, so his lack of actual damage dealing power wasn't generally a major factor. And even then he was often the guy in the background thinking while the other folks engaged in the mindless violence.

So he wasn't, originally, the omnipotent Bat-God. Rather, he was quite sensibly doing what a non-powered character should be doing in his situation: either using technology (the Batplane) to narrow the gap, or else being the one doing the background work.

I think my next Bat-type character will spend a whole bunch of points on a spiffy vehicle...

And yes, in the Golden Age, he did actually deal with some of his opponents by machine gunning them from the air...

[space wolf]

first i would like to point out that a straight one on one with midnigher would not happen, why? because batman doesnt fight fair...fair isnt in his vocab, he will use anything and everything he possibly can to win (asside from guns and lethal force of course) and while midnighter doesnt have that restriction, he also doesnt have an arsenal around his waste, or a plane or car waiting to be called. I believe someone mentioned batman defeating amazo...he only stalled amazo until the batmobile could arrive and fired missiles at him. I have no doubt that bats could get away....then again, I'm a bat fan, so Im biased.

[GestaltBennie]

Deciding with my head, Midnighter. He's like Batman crossed with Slade crossed with Wolverine.

Deciding with my heart, Bats.

[Susano]

I will admit that initially, under Warren Ellis, The Authority were interesting characters with interesting powers and abilities and a pretty decent motivation -- to make the world a better place. It was post Ellis that I grew pretty disgusted with the comic and the politics. So, all jokes aside, in a straight up fight? Midnighter. In a fight where Batman can plan ahead? Bats.

But Captain America beats them both, 'cause he's, well, Captain America -- the guy Korvac ranked as more dangerous than Thor!

[ghost-angel]

Firelord Rulez!!

[Susano]

Ergo, Spider-man would totally own Midnighter.

^_^

Wait... Midnighter versus Taskmaster...

:help:

[Vigil]

Yeah Cap!

He'd wipe the floor with Bats then tean Midnighter that there's certain things a "tactics engine" is completely useless at, that is, beating a foe that simply won't be beaten. Cap always finds a way to win, regardless of the odds and that's why...

Cap Rules!

[OzMike]

Seeing as this thread is called Batman vs Midnighter I thought I'd digress but remain loosely on thread topic...

Admittedly Midnighter has not been written well, not nearly as well as Batman. However, the character is still young and there are some pretty dire Batman stories out there in the 60-odd years of comic book history. I don't think the character is that bad, as far as characters go. And seeing as he is meant to be a Batman analogy and the thread is about the two versus each other ...

What does Batman have that Midnighter doesn't, and does Midnighter need to fix him?

(and "a bullet" isn't really the answer I had in mind to the second, even though it is tempting...)

[Susano]

What does Batman have that Midnighter doesn't, and does Midnighter need to fix him?

Brains. Batman is far, far smarter than Midnighter and is much like James Bond, at times, he's an expert on everything. One major question is, does Midnighter have anything to fall back on when the battle-computer in his head gets the Blue-Screen-Of-Death? He must have some sort of martial training and combat skills, or computer or no, he wouldn't be able to fight the way he does. The one thing Bats has going for him is Midnighter's overconfidence. IIRC, Midnighter is really, really dependent on his computer, not that he is helpless without it, but that he is so used to what it can do for him, he doesn't both with stealth and what not anymore. So it's possible bats could use that to lure Midnighter into an area crawling with traps and take him out.

[gojira]

Batman napalms Midnighter from the Batplane, and says "I normally dislike taking human life, but this guy was a real d*ck".

The Golden Age Batman would have used machine guns, but I figured the Iron Age version would have napalm.

Mmmm, I love the smell of Bat-napalm in the mornin'.



Round 1: Midnighter kills Batman in 3.657 seconds.

Round 2: Midnighter spends five years hiding in caves in Central Asia as the entire Justice League is after his butt in a very big way. Finally, J'onn tracks him down and Supes, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and Zatanna take him down in a quick and perfectly planned strike.

Round 3: Zatanna prevails on Dr. Strange to bring Batman back from the dead.

Batman: "I knew that would happen."

[freakboy6117]

i have a new take on this midnighter I'm pretty sure any given member of planetary could take him down and I'm including drummer.
Ambrose chases probability manipulation powers would pretty much ruin his fight wares day and without that hes reduced to low cunning which doesn't leaves him much against a well trained tactician

Jakita Wagner is super fast super strong and super tough he would be able to hurt her and she could probably just speed blitz him into a pile of mush though she would probably enjoy playing with him till she found out he was gay and lose interest.

drummer would just mess with all the bio-mechanical enhancements in midnighters brain till he passed out or was driven insane by alien porn

Elijah snow is the only one I'm not sure about and I'm pretty sure he's fought something at least as scary as midnighter in his career.

batman on the other hand could seduce jakita ( and anyway he spars with wonder woman so he knows how to manage against similarly physically competent foes)
earn the respect of Elijah with his detective skills(and if not he's fought ice powered villains before and his has power armour)
scare the ever-loving stuffing out of drummer and you don't need much else

which just leaves Ambrose chase batman's tactical ability has given him an edge even against people who can selectively alter physics or at least the minds perception of them.

[OddHat]

What does Batman have that Midnighter doesn't, and does Midnighter need to fix him?


A purpose.

The key to the Batman character is his obsession with his parents deaths. When written well, Batman takes that obsession and turns it into something positive, dedicating himself to creating a world where no child will again go through what he went through. That he does this through direct action is an artifact of the genre, though it could also be interpreted as the violent side of his driving obsession, a violence that he holds in check.

In the end, by personal choice, Batman is fighting for something beyond himself.

Midnighter never really had that.

Under Ellis, we never really learn why Midnighter decided to join the program and become a cyborg. We don’t see much of his motivation, other than his love for Apollo and his very personal joy in violence. He may be part of a group trying to make a better world, but on a personal level he seems to be fighting because he likes to fight. There’s nothing heroic in that.

After Ellis, the Authority, along with Midnighter, became parody characters intended to take the piss out of Superheroes, and the sadism rose to the surface. At this point the character really can't be redeemed.

[GoldenAge]

A purpose.

The key to the Batman character is his obsession with his parents deaths. When written well, Batman takes that obsession and turns it into something positive, dedicating himself to creating a world where no child will again go through what he went through. That he does this through direct action is an artifact of the genre, though it could also be interpreted as the violent side of his driving obsession, a violence that he holds in check.

In the end, by personal choice, Batman is fighting for something beyond himself.

Midnighter never really had that.

Under Ellis, we never really learn why Midnighter decided to join the program and become a cyborg. We don’t see much of his motivation, other than his love for Apollo and his very personal joy in violence. He may be part of a group trying to make a better world, but on a personal level he seems to be fighting because he likes to fight. There’s nothing heroic in that.

After Ellis, the Authority, along with Midnighter, became parody characters intended to take the piss out of Superheroes, and the sadism rose to the surface. At this point the character really can't be redeemed.

Excellent!