Stat Inflation

[Herolover]

Hello all.

I am running a Fantasy Campaign with the characters purchased on 75+75 points. I have 3-5 players depending upon what all is going on.

My problem is that I am running into stat inflation where everyone wants a 20 STR. Now, I admit that the party is fighter heavy (I don't have a problem with this part). However, I have the brick of the group that has a 20 STR, the quick agile fighter has a 20 STR, and now I am going to have another player with a 20 STR.

I HATE arbitrary limits so I don't want to just say, no you can't have a 20 STR. So what are some other ways to prevent this from happening in the future.

[Supreme Serpent]

The more I think about it, the more I want to import Amber "ranks" into HERO games. Once someone's "schtick" is determined, no one can get as good or better at it than them.

Big Strong Fighter w/20 Str: Until he buys Str up, best anyone else can have is 19.

Super dexy thief w/20 Dex: Until he buys Dex up, best anyone else can have is 19.

Etc. It's arbitrary, but linked to the other PC's.

Could also say "all stat increases cost triple" or somesuch.

[Vondy]

I would tell them they have to build their character to concept and that you will enforce concept. Then, require each character to have their own concept with their own schtick. You might also adjust the stat benchmarks for your campaign.

Just an example:

6-10: Average
11-13: Skilled
14-18: Competent
19-20: Heroic
21+: Legendary!

In such a case you could tell players they can only have 1 or 2 stats in the "Heroic" range (just as an example), and require they fit the concept. You could just as easily let them all march up to twenty, but only allow one stat to reach into the legendary range. Where you place the benchmarks, and the limits, is dependent on the style of play and genre you are trying to simulate.

[nelay]

I tried control stats somewhat by having a large minium number of non-combat related skills. This helped round out the characters a bit, but I still saw an awful lot of 20 STR mages and clerics.
For the last campaign I went a step further and reduced the starting points to 25 base + 50 disadvs. Now each character pretty much has 1 or 2 decent stats and nobody is buying a stat just to use points. I give decently generous XP but I dont let them randomly buy up stats without some sort of in story explaination.

[Nevenall]

I tried control stats somewhat by having a large minium number of non-combat related skills. This helped round out the characters a bit, but I still saw an awful lot of 20 STR mages and clerics.
For the last campaign I went a step further and reduced the starting points to 25 base + 50 disadvs. Now each character pretty much has 1 or 2 decent stats and nobody is buying a stat just to use points. I give decently generous XP but I dont let them randomly buy up stats without some sort of in story explaination.
This has worked for me too.

[OddHat]

Bring a live rattlesnake (in an aquarium), a box of matches, and a bottle of rum to your next gaming session. At the start of the session, take a swig of rum, and then (using the matches and as much of the rum as you declined to swallow) spray liquid fire over the gaming table. Now, ask your players who wants to be the first to dangle his private parts in the aquarium.

None of them will ever ask for another 20 STR character again.

[Rick]

I'm the GM, erol flyn doesn't get to have a 20str, Conan does get to have a 23str...PERIOD. Arguing gets you the look, continue to argue and you get the hook (rhym not intended, but all the same fun).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Thus far I've been blessed with regular players that build their characters to concept. Though, oftentimes the concepts themselves are overpowered, but they stick to them!

Though I like the method of adjusting the "benchmarks" then telling everyone only 1 or 2 of their stats should be on the "Herioc" level and only 1 at the "Legendary" level (and it must be the stat that is most important for the characters concept, of course)

[OddHat]

Thus far I've been blessed with regular players that build their characters to concept. Though, oftentimes the concepts themselves are overpowered, but they stick to them!

Though I like the method of adjusting the "benchmarks" then telling everyone only 1 or 2 of their stats should be on the "Herioc" level and only 1 at the "Legendary" level (and it must be the stat that is most important for the characters concept, of course)

Yup. This is a good method, espescially if you play up Character A's "Legendary Speed", character B's "Legendary Strength", etc, out of combat.

[Storn]

I charge 2 pts for STR (in HD I create Generic/Custom Power and charge the same amount of points the STR is.).

I also only give 2 xp per adventure.

I am throwing away STR mins to weild weapons. It is stupid that an atheltic man (STR 10) cannot wield a 2 handed sword. Because it suggests that you have to benchpress 400 and be HUGE to weild such a weapon. Not every Swiss Mercenary who weilded a 2 handed sword was an 18 STR. The str mins are stoopid, IMO, as they are defined. So, now you can be a 13 STR warrior and have a two handed battle axe or sword... sure, its going to be a bit more taxing than Ahrnald...but it can be done.

Instead, STR Mins for every 5 pts under, you expend 1 END more for using the weapon. And of course, for every 5 pts over, you get a +1 DC.

And I have good players who will not buy strength up if it doesn't meet character concept.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I dont worry about it. Whats the point of enticing people to play a game system that lets you model your character as you please within point limits and campaign appropriatness, only to turn around and say "no, you cant have a 20 STR (or whatever) -- Billy already has that"?

I encourage players not to step on each other's shticks too much, but there are so many ways to build things in the HERO System that two characters having similar stats does not necessarily mean they are similar characters by any means.

If it really really really bothers you, consider making the cost of STR = 2 points. It immediately stops being so efficient to buy you're a fool not to buy as much as you can from a mathematical perspective. If it's not just STR, but all key stats that you dont like to see float up to 20's, set the NCM to 15 for the camapaign. This singlehandedly makes it inefficient to buy everything up to 20 (although at 1pt per STR, you still basically break even if you push to 20 via figureds).

[OddHat]

Personally, I dont worry about it. Whats the point of enticing people to play a game system that lets you model your character as you please within point limits and campaign appropriatness, only to turn around and say "no, you cant have a 20 STR (or whatever) -- Billy already has that"?

I encourage players not to step on each other's shticks too much, but there are so many ways to build things in the HERO System that two characters having similar stats does not necessarily mean they are similar characters by any means.

If it really really really bothers you, consider making the cost of STR = 2 points. It immediately stops being so efficient to buy you're a fool not to buy as much as you can from a mathematical perspective. If it's not just STR, but all key stats that you dont like to see float up to 20's, set the NCM to 15 for the camapaign. This singlehandedly makes it inefficient to buy everything up to 20 (although at 1pt per STR, you still basically break even if you push to 20 via figureds).

Hey, KS. Nice to see you around. :)

[joen00b]

I think my big beef is everyone and their cousin wanting to learn martial arts. One guy in the group can do a flying side kick knocking the bad guy through a brick wall and all of a sudden the paladins and thieves and mages want to be chop sockying all over his genre. I've seen it happen a hundred times, if I've seen it once. Guaranteed there is always at least 1 person in the group that wants to accenuate their skills with Martial Arts... nevermind the background story of how this guy studied his whole life to be able to do martial arts, now this one guy wants to be able to do them too.

Am I the only one aggravated by this?

[Supreme Serpent]

Nah, that just means Martial Arts are unbalanced. :D

[Storn]

My fix for martial arts?

You can't apply it to weapon damage. It is only empty hand techniques. Martial Art Techniques applied to weapons makes armor obsolete.. which is fine for some fantasy campaigns for feel... but not mine.

And empty hand technique vs. a knife/dagger/short sword, -1 OCV
vs. Longsword, medium length weapon: -2
vs. spear or polearm: :-3

{of course, if you DO get inside of the weapon length, then its the other guy who has the OCV penalties.}

[Herolover]

Thanks for all the replies.

Many of the replies I have seen are along of the lines, "Well, tell them they can't because you say so." This is exactly the reply I am not wanting to give my players.

I really don't want to change the cost of STR, but I may have to.

I do like the idea of changing the point at which characters start paying double. This I will have to look into.

[Herolover]

Storn.
I like the STR Min on weapons. They represent the fact that you have to have a certain level of physical ability to weild a weapon WELL. It isn't saying that the average guy (STR 10) can't wield a great sword, but it is saying that avererage guy can't weild a great sword WELL.

You do know that if you use two hands to weild a one handed weapon the STR MIN is reduced right?

You are correct the average merc doen't have an 18 STR. So how come they can wield the sword so good? Combat Manuevers and Combat Skill Levels.

This is one thing that my STR 20 players haven't done. I am going to abuse them with STR 15 NPC's.

The way I see it my STR 20 guys have the natural talent, but not the actual knowledge and know how. They are going to find this out the next combat :dh:

[Ki-rin]

I try to mimic the way things work ITRW. So after adulthood, your characteristics tend not to be very changable. OTOH, skill improvement is much easier.

So I have each player define what characteristics and skills (and to what levels) are "in concept" for their character(s) at creation time.

Then I make "in concept" skills 1/2 the price of standard (up to a limit based on starting value, characteristics, and character concept). Outside those bounds, skill cost either normal or 2x depending on just how far outside those bounds they are.

"In concept" characteristics have a higher NCM than out-of-concept ones, and "out of concept" characteristics can have -lower- NCM than "max human" depending on concept. Characteristics outside the NCM for the character concept cost 2x or even 4x for values +way+ outside the NCM.

This models the way the RW works: once you are an adult, your characteristics are very hard to change and nigh unto impossible past some point. OTOH, skills are relatively easy to develop and skills you have a knack for or concentration in are comparatively very easy to develop. I also allow characteristics to go up if you have trained enough up enough skills based on that characteristic for it to have been cheaper to buy the characteristic (the CP for the rise come out of the ones you spent on skills of course. TANSTAAFL.)

So the small, quick, sneaky thief does not end up looking like the hulking, super strong fighter. And everyone gets an interesting development path.

[Outsider]

An option that has not been suggested :

Just accept that 20 isnt any sort of 'maximum', but just a waypoint on the point cost scale and the place where a 'normal man' can get and not look un-normal (ie unusually large or bulky) if he works out and is in top shape. Truly large men, either by stature, bulk, or both, can then exceed the 20 mark, though they have to pay double to do so. You might make them pay redouble after 30 too.

Go by point costs to determine what 'legendary' is, not by stat value. If 30 points in a stat is 'Heroic schtick' and 48 is 'Legendary schtick' (based on 20 or 23 dex) then

30 Strength (10 points to 20, then 20 more (double cost) to 30) is how strong a 'strong schtick' hero is (Conan)
~40 Strength (or ~35, if you redouble at 30) is how strong a 'legendarily strong schtick' hero is (Hercules)

If you're worried about how much this makes your characters able to lift/move, then just change the lifting table to be linear instead of geometric, unless the added "strength" is bought via a growth special effect. (ie 30 str man sized Conan can lift 300kg, but 30 str ogre sized (2 levels growth sized) Og can lift 800 Kg (ie 20 str linear, then 10 more geometric)

[Darkness]

Storn.
I like the STR Min on weapons. They represent the fact that you have to have a certain level of physical ability to weild a weapon WELL. It isn't saying that the average guy (STR 10) can't wield a great sword, but it is saying that avererage guy can't weild a great sword WELL.

You do know that if you use two hands to weild a one handed weapon the STR MIN is reduced right?

You are correct the average merc doen't have an 18 STR. So how come they can wield the sword so good? Combat Manuevers and Combat Skill Levels. Also an option for such characters: +STR; Only To Meet Min STR Of [Swords or whatever].

[Storn]

Storn.
I like the STR Min on weapons. They represent the fact that you have to have a certain level of physical ability to weild a weapon WELL. It isn't saying that the average guy (STR 10) can't wield a great sword, but it is saying that avererage guy can't weild a great sword WELL.

You do know that if you use two hands to weild a one handed weapon the STR MIN is reduced right?

:

yes, I know about 2 hands.

But 10 is ATHLETIC. Not wimpy. Not average... atheletic. I don't care how you slice it, an athletic person's strength should be good enough to weild 90% of HtH weapons. Melee combat is NOT about pure strength. It is about training, it is about hips and leverage and knowing what motions work with what weapons. And these things are picked up pretty damn fast. 10 minutes with a two handed sword and you KNOW you aren't going to be using it like a 2 handed axe. I've wielded both.

Being excellent with said weapons is represented abstractly by OCV levels. And really represents not only talent, but training.

And I am taking STR into account. Those w/ high strength get a break on END cost. Those w/o high strength use up more of their END. AND THAT! is what melee combat is all about.... who doesn't block and who has steam left to launch a decent attack.

But I think the -OCV costs are waaay too stiff... and i think the STR Mins are a really a left over from wargames and make very little sense in the context of what strengths of fighting men are, both now and in times past. Remember, some of these dudes where small guys, 5'5" and they would kick our asses in HtH with weapons we think they could never weild based on that we can out bench press them. But yet here they are using longhandled axes with one arm... suggesting that EVERY goth was a STR 13? That is ridiculous... there diet is no where near what our's is. Yet, there they are, using longhandled axes one handed...

[Storn]

Also an option for such characters: +STR; Only To Meet Min STR Of [Swords or whatever].

Like STR isn't already too cheap...

not a solution in my book.

[sinanju]

The more I think about it, the more I want to import Amber "ranks" into HERO games. Once someone's "schtick" is determined, no one can get as good or better at it than them.

Big Strong Fighter w/20 Str: Until he buys Str up, best anyone else can have is 19.

Super dexy thief w/20 Dex: Until he buys Dex up, best anyone else can have is 19.

Etc. It's arbitrary, but linked to the other PC's.

Could also say "all stat increases cost triple" or somesuch.

Shazbat! I was going to suggest the same thing. Great minds think alike.

I'd go one farther, though, and institute Amber-style AUCTIONS for stat rank. For those who don't know, the Amber system has four stats: Strength, Endurance, Psyche and Warfare. Players get a fixed number of points to spend and then they have to bid on each stat. Once you've bid, the points can't be taken back--win or lose, that's what you pay for your rank (whether you're first, second, third or whatever).

High bidder is ranked first in that stat. Nobody else, even someone who paid only 1 point less can hope to beat you in a contest based on that stat. Second highest always beats 3rd ranked and so on. If you don't want to bid, you don't have to--simply by virtue of being a PC, you're rated as "Amber level" in all stats, so you're superior to someone of Chaos rank, who is better than normal human, etc. Which leaves you with that many more points left over to spend on other traits and powers.

If all your PCs want to be the strongest guy on the block, decide how strong you're willing to let that guy be--and then hold an auction. See if they're _really_ willing to spend a boatload of points on Strength just for the privilege. The winning bidder gets to have STR 20 (or 23 or whatever you've decided), with the others getting lower STR scores you've established. See if they're really willing to get into a bidding war and spend 20 or 30 points or more for it.

Or maybe they'll settle for a STR of 15 (or whatever you decide they can buy at regular cost). Ditto for DEX or any other attribute they're obsessing over.

[Phil]

Another way to avoid it is to introduce scaled costing for spending experience, e.g. making CHARs above 15 cost double, and CHARs above the NCM cost treble, or something similar.

[Darkness]

Like STR isn't already too cheap... You said you increased the cost of STR in your campaign, so it shouldn't be too cheap for you any more...?

If someone else doesn't do that even though STR is too cheap for them, well yeah - of course that's a problem with STR, rather than with applying Limitations to it.

[CourtFool]

What is the real issue here? Surely you are not concerned the characters are too similar.

Is it just a case of schtick stomping? If that is the case, just talk to your players. Give them the chance to police themselves before changing the rules and creating your own system.

Is it a case of your players destroying a genre convention? Again, talk to your players. Assume they are rational adults capable of compromise before allowing them to prove you wrong.

Everyone wants to change the rules and impose limits to make everyone else play the way they want them to play. Why not open a dialogue and see if everyone can find a common middle ground everyone is happy with?

[Black Rose]

yes, I know about 2 hands.

But 10 is ATHLETIC. Not wimpy. Not average... atheletic. I don't care how you slice it, an athletic person's strength should be good enough to weild 90% of HtH weapons. Melee combat is NOT about pure strength. It is about training, it is about hips and leverage and knowing what motions work with what weapons. And these things are picked up pretty damn fast. 10 minutes with a two handed sword and you KNOW you aren't going to be using it like a 2 handed axe. I've wielded both.

Being excellent with said weapons is represented abstractly by OCV levels. And really represents not only talent, but training.

Thinking about the time I've spent around SCAdians, and their training practices, I think you're both right and mistaken about the STR levels needed for the bigger weapons. Now me, I've probably got a nice solid STR 9 (course, most of the people I know have STR 5-7, maybe 8), and I still prefer something with a long handle, unless it's a long knife or dagger-type thing. Fact is, while I have the STR to lift a fair deal, it's almost all in my back. If you watched me moving into my apartment, you'd see me carrying things on my back, sometimes lifted onto my shoulder, almost never in my arms. I simply don't have the arm strength for it.

And as for knowing you'll use a two-handed sword differently from a two-handed axe inside of ten minutes, well, you'll know it, but you won't know everything about how inside of ten minutes. Then again, I could be wrong and you're really good at this stuff; I'm not so much.

Personally I don't think the penalties should be quite as extreme as they are currently. I do think there should be a fluctuating CV penalty based on reduced STR and skill; by this I mean you focus on moving or hitting until you really know what you're doing.

And I am taking STR into account. Those w/ high strength get a break on END cost. Those w/o high strength use up more of their END. AND THAT! is what melee combat is all about.... who doesn't block and who has steam left to launch a decent attack.

But I think the -OCV costs are waaay too stiff... and i think the STR Mins are a really a left over from wargames and make very little sense in the context of what strengths of fighting men are, both now and in times past. Remember, some of these dudes where small guys, 5'5" and they would kick our asses in HtH with weapons we think they could never weild based on that we can out bench press them. But yet here they are using longhandled axes with one arm... suggesting that EVERY goth was a STR 13? That is ridiculous... there diet is no where near what our's is. Yet, there they are, using longhandled axes one handed...

Again, IMO, a matter of bench presses and dead lifts having very little to do with full-body strength.

And to be honest, I can imagine those little guys having pretty decent "Strength scores"; they do that stuff for a living, and have paid for the Strength, and Endurance, and the CSLs. That's why they are the professional sojers, and we are the weekend warriors.

[Storn]

[QUOTE=Black Rose]Thinking about the time I've spent around SCAdians, and their training practices, I think you're both right and mistaken about the STR levels needed for the bigger weapons. Now me, I've probably got a nice solid STR 9 (course, most of the people I know have STR 5-7, maybe 8), and I still prefer something with a long handle, unless it's a long knife or dagger-type thing. Fact is, while I have the STR to lift a fair deal, it's almost all in my back. If you watched me moving into my apartment, you'd see me carrying things on my back, sometimes lifted onto my shoulder, almost never in my arms. I simply don't have the arm strength for it.

And as for knowing you'll use a two-handed sword differently from a two-handed axe inside of ten minutes, well, you'll know it, but you won't know everything about how inside of ten minutes. Then again, I could be wrong and you're really good at this stuff; I'm not so much.


Again, IMO, a matter of bench presses and dead lifts having very little to do with full-body strength.
QUOTE]

You misread me... I said you would understand the DIFFERENCES between teh two weapons pretty quickly... not that you would be an expert in 10 minutes. Hell, I feel the difference in a Ax Maul and single bladed axe and a double bladed axe (I cut a LOT of wood in my youth). You swing all of them differently because they all have slightly different weight. Your body will tell you a lot of what you need to know. Now, will it tell you in ways to keep you alive during the insane press of melee combat??? That's what training is about.

I think you are agreeing with me more than disagreeing. Yes, that's what I'm saying, STR is not a matter of how much one can lift... yet the STR chart breaks things down that way. Then the STR min of weapons hew us to a concept that is, well,.... off.

I'm 5'8". Yet I was a professional furniture mover with the Gentle Giants...everyone else was hired at 6 feet or taller. These guys were huge, yet I held my own just fine. Because I used my legs and my whole body to move things like pianos. Sure, they were stronger than me, but not substantially, I could still move a 4 drawer file cabinet fully loaded.. and while it was tiring... it was tiring for the Georgetown rower who stood 6'4" as well. Yet he could benchpress 3 of me.

So back to my concept. It sounds like you are a pretty athletic guy, you say you are a 9 STR... yet it sounds to me like you would have no problem swinging a 2 handed sword around. We are talking about using a weapon, not well, but simply using it. Using it well, in Hero, is about Levels and DEX.

Lastly, I've held a few REAL swords. They aren't all that heavy. The german bastard sword surprised me how light it was... how balanced it was. I could swing the damn thing EASILY one handed, even thrust with it... and I'm probably a 11 STR. For how long? With adrenaline pumping? Different story. But that comes back to Endurence and training... not raw strength.

[Markdoc]

There's two problems here:

At 75 + 75 points you are more or less asking players to take high stat.s: they are a very efficient way of being good at stuff. Players who start with 75 + 75 almost always have better stat. lines than players who started at 50 + 50 and then got 50 XP. They find other things to spend points on along the way. Higher starting total XP.s almost always translate to higher starting Stat.s. Likewise, characters started at lower points tend to diverge more radically as they optimise whatever *their* shtick is, so treading on each other's acts becomes less of an issue

Secondly, STR is extremely cheap - in fantasy games, where it dictates everything from how much encumbrance (and thus armour) you wear through how much damage you can dish out and how much STUN you have it's simply too good to pass up. This is why all your players want 20 STR. A player has to consciously say "I will deliberately disadvantage myself by taking a low STR because it's in character" - and while such players exist, they are rare....

So, as others have noted, increasing STR to 2 points per stat point helps.

Otherwise, you are faced with saying "No, because I said so" which I have always regarded as the last resort of the poor GM.

cheers, Mark

[Herolover]

What is the real issue here? Surely you are not concerned the characters are too similar.

Is it just a case of schtick stomping? If that is the case, just talk to your players. Give them the chance to police themselves before changing the rules and creating your own system.

Is it a case of your players destroying a genre convention? Again, talk to your players. Assume they are rational adults capable of compromise before allowing them to prove you wrong.

Everyone wants to change the rules and impose limits to make everyone else play the way they want them to play. Why not open a dialogue and see if everyone can find a common middle ground everyone is happy with?

You know, this post really made me think. What is my problem with it? It isn't that they are going on each others schtick or that they appear similiar.

No my problem is that when they fight the STR 13-15 city guard I am scared they are going to over match the city guard and that I don't want. I don't want to have to give any fighter they face a 20+ STR just to match them.

That said, if I as GM can remember to use skill levels and maneuvers for the bad guys it shouldn't be a problem.

[Lezentauw]

Rather than start changing things, why not look at what having a character with increased STR means? There is two ways that you are going to be stronger than other people. Either you achieved that by physical exercise, or you are bigger.

As an example I will take Hulk Hogan & Andre the Giant as two extremes. I would consider both in the 20 STR category. The differences between them are other stats that I consider related to STR.

First is Body:
Both being as strong as they are, are at least twice the size of a normal person. This means that I would require a person with a 20 STR to buy at least 15 Body. Since Andre is bigger than Hulk, I would require him to be purchased with a higher body than Hulk, say 17.

Next is Con:
Hulk achieved his high STR through physical exercise, so his Con would be pretty high, IMO. I would require at least a CON of 15 for Hulk, to show the results of continous physical exercising. For Andre, IMO he did not gain as much of his STR through Physical exercise, though it is obvious that he does do some. I would require Andre to have a CON of 13.

This is the result, for having a 20 STR:
Hulk STR 20, CON 15, Body 15
Andre STR 20, CON 13, Body 17

Either way, the character is spending 30 points to get that 20 STR. The lower your starting points are, the more this is going to stop the most abused stat inflation with STR, as it is no longer just a drop of 10 points. At 50/50 a character could still have a 20 STR & 20 DEX, leaving 40 points for skills. Though at 25/25 or 25/50 you would not see it....

Once a person has increased their Body to show that they are indeed bigger than the average person, then comes the social ramifications; hiding, blending in a crowd, amount of food required, special tailored clothes and armor, squeezing through tight areas...

I say if a person wants their character to be that big, let them... But, they should also be willing to take the good with the bad as well...

[sbarron]

You know, this post really made me thing. What is my problem with it? It isn't that they are going on each others schtick or that the appear similiar.

No my problem is that when they fact the STR 13-15 city guard I am scared they are going to over match them and that i don't want. I don't want to have to give any fighter they face a 20+ STR just to match them.

That said, if I as GM can remember to use skill levels and maneuvers for the bad guys it shouldn't be a problem.This is the problem with starting characters out at 150 pts. They do outclass many opponnets they might face, providing those opponents use the HERO templates. The "wizard" in the party could probably win a toe-to-toe fist-fight with most average "template" city guards. He is just so many more points that he has everything the average guard has, not even including his spells.

So I'd recommend either make all the city guards tougher, or have the PCs be created weaker. I always look at it like this...how tough is the average city guard? Are the PCs supposed to be on a similar level? Lower? Higher? Then have the PCs created on points appropriatelty. It is completely possible in HERO to have one game where the average guard is only 25 pts, and another game where the average guard is 125pts. Since the GM sets the bar, he can set it anywhere he likes.

You as the GM have decided that the average guard has a strength of 13-15. However, every one of your PCs has a STR of 20. That means one of two things. Either your PCs are all very strong, or in your game a 20 STR doesn't mean that much (as everyone seems to have it).

My advice would just be to increase the cost of STR to 2-for-1. It really does solve a lot of problems. That, or make your guards tougher.

[Outsider]

Killing, injuring or even fighting city guards is a whole different proposition from doing so with bandits or thieves, even if the combat stats on the guards/thieves are much the same.

Part of the City Guard perk is that anyone who kills, injures, or even fights you is likely to gain several troublesome character disadvantages that dont give more points to spend since they are gained in play.

Hunted in the Kingdom in which the guards were killed. (by the authorities and possibly freelancers, if there is a reward posted)

Either Hunted in neighboring kingdoms also, if they are allied to or at peace with the offended kingdom, or Watched in those kingdoms. Authority figures dont like people who kill the agents of authority, even if the dead agents weren't theirs. Someone who does such a thing once might well do it again.

Reputation as or social limitation as 'Outlaws' with the resulting shunning by law abiding citizens, the lack of protection of the courts (ie, nobody has to honor bargains or contracts with you) and so on.

If the PCs have killed enough guards, or otherwise caused enough trouble, they WILL be identified as the authorities bring in the 'heavy hitters' who can use magic to assist in their identification. "Mirror, mirror, hear me speak, show me an image of the man I seek! Allright, Court Artist, make a sketch of him, then send it to the Dwarven engravers with instructions to reproduce it on a thousand sheets of vellum to be distributed to every manor, parish, and town in the kingdom! He will face my justice!"

Sure, this isnt the likely result from -one- incident, but killing city guards is like eating potato chips...

[Agemegos]

Storn.
I like the STR Min on weapons. They represent the fact that you have to have a certain level of physical ability to weild a weapon WELL. It isn't saying that the average guy (STR 10) can't wield a great sword, but it is saying that avererage guy can't weild a great sword WELL.

And your players want to play heroes, so they want to wield common weapons well. So naturally they buy strength.

Fantasy HERO has a bit of a problem jammed down in the lower end of a representation scale meant for Spiderman, the Hulk, and Superman. There are only five values for strength in the 'normal' range that are functionally different from one another. For heroic characters, HERO is a very low resolution character representation system.

Stength is cheap, and very important (especially with HERO's ridiculously high strength minima in force). You can't expect people not to buy it at the price. If you won't raise the price, and won't bring in rationing, I am afraid that you are snookered.

The only out I can suggest is to raise the maximum normal strength to 25 or even 30. Otherwise you are going to have to tell you players to adapt tothe truth: STR is nothing very much in HERO System, it is cheap and effective and every combat character has it. If they want to characterise themelves as big strong guys, they will have to shell out for three or five points at double cost.

[Agemegos]

No my problem is that when they fact the STR 13-15 city guard I am scared they are going to over match them and that i don't want. I don't want to have to give any fighter they face a 20+ STR just to match them.

Then in my opinion you have erred in giving them 150 point to build characters. 150 point characters are supposed to be heroes. They are supposed to overwhelm guards. If you want characters to treat normal guards and soldiers with circumspection, you give teh players 50+50 or even 25+50.

It seems to me that you want the characters to be heroes on paper, but not heroes in the game world, and are getting tangled in the contradiction.

To get what you want, give out 50+50 instead of 75+75. You'll get characters with lower stats who won't overwhelm guards. And whose strength is not always jammed up against the normal characteristic maximum.

(Though I have to say this: in a context where PD, REC, and Stun are all valuable, where damage class is valuable, where HERO's ridiculous strength minima are in force, and where characters have no access to powers and power frameworks, no need to buy multiple defences etc. etc., STR is a very good buy at one character point per point. You might still end up with a lot of STR at 20)

[NuSoardGraphite]

You know, this post really made me thing. What is my problem with it? It isn't that they are going on each others schtick or that the appear similiar.

No my problem is that when they fact the STR 13-15 city guard I am scared they are going to over match them and that i don't want. I don't want to have to give any fighter they face a 20+ STR just to match them.

That said, if I as GM can remember to use skill levels and maneuvers for the bad guys it shouldn't be a problem.

That's what you are worried about?

Yeah, Skill levels, Martial Arts and Talents can go a long way toward evening the scale on Characteristic Monsters....

[OddHat]

Then in my opinion you have erred in giving them 150 point to build characters. 150 point characters are supposed to be heroes. They are supposed to overwhelm guards. If you want characters to treat normal guards and soldiers with circumspection, you give teh players 50+50 or even 25+50.

It seems to me that you want the characters to be heroes on paper, but not heroes in the game world, and are getting tangled in the contradiction.

To get what you want, give out 50+50 instead of 75+75. You'll get characters with lower stats who won't overwhelm guards. And whose strength is not always jammed up against the normal characteristic maximum.

Build all the characters on 25 total points, no disads, NCM set at 13, and build all the guards on 500 points. It'll be like life in your very first D&D game with a killer GM. :D

[Harakani]

Strength is too useful
Either
A) allow high strength concept characters to buy >20 str (maybe 25, or 30)
B) lower NCM
C) Increase the costs of STR
D) Use Tricks characters

D typically represents strength with advantages and disadvantages, sich as "Only for Encumberance Penalties", "Does not increase Lifting Strength", "only for strength versus strength contests" and so on.

Basically, low powered Brick Tricks.

Some of my favourites are "Only to increase casual strength" and "Only to avoid Encumberance" - they'll make a character look stronger without breakign game - consider them as talents. The high strength character can now spend more points on strength.

Another cool thing for the "giant" characters (7ft+) is to work out a package deal similar to a bit of growth, and allow them not to pay NCM for their increased strength; ie they are expected to be 21+

Harakani

[CourtFool]

No my problem is that when they fact the STR 13-15 city guard I am scared they are going to over match them and that i don't want. I don't want to have to give any fighter they face a 20+ STR just to match them.

First, STR is not the only measure of how combatants measure up. If you want your PCs to be balanced against your average City Guard, you have a lot more to consider.

Second, a lot of people have suggested basing characters on fewer points. If you want your PCs to be balanced against your average City Guard, then this is a fine suggestion. However, you already started the campaign and I am sure the PCs would rebel if you suggested rewrites. Just boosting all your City Guards seems a little arbitrary and heavy handed as well. May I suggest that whenever your PCs encounter a group of City Guards they just happen to have a Seargent with them. Someone who, 1 on 1, outmatches each of the PCs. Sure, the PCs can mop up the mooks, but they have to rely on teamwork to bring down the leader. Also, let the City Guards use good teamwork and tactics. Have them call in reinforcements.

Third, why do you want your average City Guard to be a match for your PCs? As someone else mentioned, this seems rather unheroic. If the City Guard are on par with the PCs why aren't they tackling the missions the PCs are being sent on?

I may be reaching here, but it sounds like you may be having difficulty challenging your PCs. Perhaps this link will give you some ideas:

19 Tips for GMing Powerful Characters (http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=119#tips)

Your PCs may not be 'powerful' but I think these tips can apply to any group.

[Agemegos]

Build all the characters on 25 total points, no disads, NCM set at 13, and build all the guards on 500 points. It'll be like life in your very first D&D game with a killer GM. :D

One of the advantages of the HERO System is that it doesn't force you to play heroes if that isn't what you want.

[Black Rose]

Don't forget that, if you throw three or four CG (City Guard) at your players, they are not going to slug it out. That would be dumb, and suicidal, things CGs are not known for. They will demand your players halt, and if they are attacked, they will call for reinforcements. That's right, instead of a handful of CGs, you now have many of the nearby CGs coming in (could be a diversion, after all), plus they're calling for backup, too.

Soon, you're gonna have the equivalent of SWAT coming in, especially if your mage starts in with anything flashy. CGs will either have magic countermeasures or will alert their fellows armed with crossbows to turn him into a pincushion. If he's whipped out an Armor spell, or something else that lets him shrug off the effects of missile fire, measures will be stepped up.

And your fighters will be targeted for takedown measures (nets, mancatchers, etc.) unless they start swinging an axe or broadsword. Then they're be targeted for takedown with prejudice. Think of it like this: with 75+75 points, your players are nearly low-end supers, especially to John Q Townsfolk. If they strut and preen, tossing silver like water, they will be loved. If they start attacking the forces of order in town, they are dangerous villains.

[OddHat]

One of the advantages of the HERO System is that it doesn't force you to play heroes if that isn't what you want.

Yes. I'm fond of low point play myself (some of my 50 point Superheroes can be found in the Supers with Pics thread linked to in my sig). On the other hand, I've met very few Fantasy genre payers who want to play swineherds who stay swineherds, but who, through hard work and character, eventually earn their very own turnip. ;)

[Ki-rin]

Yes. I'm fond of low point play myself (some of my 50 point Superheroes can be found in the Supers with Pics thread linked to in my sig). On the other hand, I've met very few Fantasy genre payers who want to play swineherds who stay swineherds, but who, through hard work and character, eventually earn their very own turnip. ;)
ROTFLMAO!

[Agemegos]

Yes. I'm fond of low point play myself (some of my 50 point Superheroes can be found in the Supers with Pics thread linked to in my sig). On the other hand, I've met very few Fantasy genre payers who want to play swineherds who stay swineherds, but who, through hard work and character, eventually earn their very own turnip. ;)

This suggests that Herolover, who wants his players' characters to be challenged by the city guard, may have trouble finding players for his game.

If he is ever lucky enough to find the happy turnip-herders he wants, he should still not give them 75+75. Because a 75+75 character just doesn't turn out to be a turnip-herder.

Herolover wants the characters in his game to be challenged by the city guard. He says so. Giving the players 150 point heroic characters was not the right way to go about this. That is not my fault. And for what it is worth, I don't want 25+25-point player characters in my game, and don't say you have to have them in yours.

That seems pretty straightforward to me. What is the problem?

[OddHat]

This suggests that Herolover, who wants his players' characters to be challenged by the city guard, may have trouble finding players for his game.

If he is ever lucky enough to find the happy turnip-herders he wants, he should still not give them 75+75. Because a 75+75 character just doesn't turn out to be a turnip-herder.

Herolover wants the characters in his game to be challenged by the city guard. He says so. Giving the players 150 point heroic characters was not the right way to go about this. That is not my fault. And for what it is worth, I don't want 25+25-point player characters in my game, and don't say you have to have them in yours.

That seems pretty straightforward to me. What is the problem?

I was having fun with the idea of campaigns where the city guards are overwhelmingly more powerful than your characters; however, if HL or anyone else would like to play in such a campaign, that's cool as well. They don't need my permission. ;)

[Outsider]

Because a 75+75 character just doesn't turn out to be a turnip-herder.


I made a 150 point farmer once. He was a -really- good farmer. But, as you say, he didnt stay a farmer, not after he plowed up that pristine rune covered sword that he couldn't seem to get rid of...

Well, he was really a 120 or a 125 point farmer, the last 25 or 30 were spent on the sword.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Interesting thread.
I have to agree with Storn on a lot of his points... I've been a live steel fighter at Ren Faires for many years, and the Str minimums (and to a lesser extent, weapon damages) are gaming conventions that have been flawed from the get go. I am a 6'2" beanpole, weighing around 160 lbs, without a whole lot of muscle, and I usually fought with either a Claymore (greatsword), a 5' hafted bardiche (great axe), or a bastard sword. Real honest metal weapons are a LOT easier to weild than SCA clubs, which is where I suspect a lot of the original game systems got the idea that big weapons require high STR to weild. (this, BTW, is also tied to a lot of the old Runequest/Arduin/Arms law fumble rules, most of which are self admittedly based on SCA combat... real steel weapons tend to be less clumsy than their rattan counterparts... Its REALLY hard to make a "combat safe" padded version of a melee weapon that actually balances the same way that a real weapon does)
I can see the Extra Str to offset penalties, but its still a bit clunky...and it still falls a bit short. Last week, I was installing wheeled dollie on a piano... which I turned over by myself, then accidentally snapped the head off a case hardened lag screw while installing the wheels. Neither of which I should have been able to do, according to my "lifting capacity": STR.
Anyway... to the topic at hand...
My FH games have been 100+150 (for 250 points) for a very long time. In my personal opinion, the standard hero "normals" are FAR too normal. I can write up your average serf as at least a 25 point character, more likely a 50 pointer.
I usually make solider types around 50 ponts base, with a few disads as appropriate. In my campaign, character shtick stats have almost always been over CHA maximum. The Conan type had around a 28 STR. The Grey mouser type had a 5 speed, and a 21 dex, IIRC. It really isn't all that hard to rescale things up a touch, and makes for a more cinematic/literary style of game, IMHO. As an example, look at the characters in the Belgariad. A good argument could be made that a significant number of the characters are in the 18-23 STR range, yet thier designs are sufficiently arctypical that no character steps on anothers shtick.
As for my soliders...
They all get package deals. Most have a few skill levles. They average around 13 str. the well trained ones have levels wiith coordination, unit tactics and the like. They fight as smart as they should. Veteran troops from a war torn border are going to be a LOT meaner than the town volunteer watch. One of the nice things about using HERO for heroic level games is the potential fear and loathing factor. Being Covered by a half dozen heavy crossbows should give most folk pause.

[Herolover]

Okay where to start where to start.

First, I normally like lower point campaigns, but went with a higher point level this time and I am not going back.

What point level you like or want to play with is up to you.

Actually reminds me of a neat story. I once told my players (when I did the D20 thing) that I was going to start a new campaign. I told them for character creation they would roll 4d6 drop the highest and re-roll any 6's for each stat. It was the "Farmer campaign." It was a joke of course.

Maybe I am not sure how to explain my city guard post. Maybe I am incorrect in thinking that the city guard should be a challenge for my players.

I am not having a problem challenging my players. I have a lot of adventures to go through.

[AmadanNaBriona]

perhaps I didn't make my post clear enough....
My campaign is a 250 point Epic fantasy campaign, and yet still the heros have to respect the city guard, or face the consequences. Its all about character design, having broadly designed characters, clamping down on powergaming, and making sure that low level threats don't ACT like mooks.

[Curufea]

. I am a 6'2" beanpole, weighing around 160 lbs, without a whole lot of muscle, and I usually fought with either a Claymore (greatsword), a 5' hafted bardiche (great axe), or a bastard sword. Real honest metal weapons are a LOT easier to weild than SCA clubs..

Similar here (although I'm 185 = 6'1").

But I would point out, that using the weapon was not that tiring - using a weapon AND wearing armour AND wielding a shield (or possibly ESPECIALLY the shield) is very tiring.

Waving an arm around holding a sword is not difficult. If that arm is covered with a kilogram or more of metal armour (ie mail), or the joints aren't fully articulated and you are constantly encountering the limits of your dexterity (ie plate) is a different matter.

Shields are worse, as you tend to keep them in constant position, away from you body (if you want them to be effective) - you can rest your weapon on your shield, but not vice versa.

[OddHat]

Maybe I am not sure how to explain my city guard post. Maybe I am incorrect in thinking that the city guard should be a challenge for my players.

I am not having a problem challenging my players. I have a lot of adventures to go through.

The question of whether the city guard should be a serous challenge for your players has a lot to do with play style, and with what sub-genre you're trying to simulate. In a "Druss the Legend" campaign (semi-realistic low fantasy), the characters are very unlikely to come into direct conflict with the city guard, and if they do, they're likely to need to flee. The characters will be built on far more points than the guards, but the guards will have greater numbers, the hit location charts will be in effect, no one is going to be strutting around in full plate armor in town, crossbows will be in use, etc. A young Druss may be a match for a half dozen or more guards face to face, but nothing is proteting him from a crossbow bolt in the back. In that kind of a campaign, tactics mean more than point totals.

In a D&D style high fantasy campaign, you might want to let your characters be completely immune to anything less than another party of adventurers of similar or higher level. Whatever way that you and your players want to handle it is "right". :)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Similar here (although I'm 185 = 6'1").

But I would point out, that using the weapon was not that tiring - using a weapon AND wearing armour AND wielding a shield (or possibly ESPECIALLY the shield) is very tiring.

Waving an arm around holding a sword is not difficult. If that arm is covered with a kilogram or more of metal armour (ie mail), or the joints aren't fully articulated and you are constantly encountering the limits of your dexterity (ie plate) is a different matter.

Shields are worse, as you tend to keep them in constant position, away from you body (if you want them to be effective) - you can rest your weapon on your shield, but not vice versa.

Yeah...It took me a while to get used to my 25 pound, short sleeved knee length mail hauberk (1/4" I.D. 4 in 1),heavy leather & chain gorget and my plate gauntlets. And I still dislike fighting with a shield... mostly because I'm used to the reach and coverage I can maintain with a longer weapon. I am, however, very skilled in blocking with gauntlets. Little trick I discovered early on... the articulation of my gauntlets was such that I could flex my wrist back a bit and lock my lames in place, giving me a nice rigid bladetrap on the back of my hand... My gauntlets, alas, were in the car when it got ripped off, so I don't have the evidence to show anymore... I got used to the occasional question about why my left gauntlet was so beat up along the spine compared to my right. Well...the other reason I dislike sheilds is because, for theatrical reasons, I used a targe. The long adjustable strap that I used to sling it across my back for marching worked great crossbody to help support the sheild, but no matter what you do, a 20" round sheild leaves your off side open from about the knee down. As this is exactly where my mail stopped, I stopped fighting with it... I wear tough high boots, but even so, getting hit in the shins with a blunt steel blade HURTS.

EDIT: I stopped fighting in plate when I broke a strap on my right leg and had the whole leg slip down enough that my kneecap caught in the lames above the knee cop when my opponent slammed into me. That hurt WAY more than getting hit. Dropped me like a poleaxed steer. Feild plate... great protection, lousy mobility. One of the things I like about HERO is that really good armor has really good penalties... its quite true.

[Curufea]

And I still dislike fighting with a shield... mostly because I'm used to the reach and coverage I can maintain with a longer weapon. I am, however, very skilled in blocking with gauntlets.

The importance of a shield can be easily realised if you do mass combat (ie lines vs lines) or if you face a spear. Especially a spear or polearm in a mass - "Where'd that hit come from?"


One of the things I like about HERO is that really good armor has really good penalties... its quite true.

Except for my pet peeve - mail should way more than plate. A better DEF (or higher AP) shouldn't mean a heavier armour. But you can house rule around that.

[AmadanNaBriona]

The importance of a shield can be easily realised if you do mass combat (ie lines vs lines) or if you face a spear. Especially a spear or polearm in a mass - "Where'd that hit come from?"
Actually, the main times I used my bardiche was when we did "boars head" wedge formation charges against a formation of pike and bill hooks. Takes a LOT of practice, tho, and you REALLY have to be comfortable with an axe. And doing it without armor is suicide. I recomend a helmet as well. Galloglas were required by contract to have a helmet, but not docked pay if they were lacking... It was assumed that your decreased lifespan was sufficent penalty.


Except for my pet peeve - mail should way more than plate. A better DEF (or higher AP) shouldn't mean a heavier armour. But you can house rule around that.
I agree. This is an almost universal problem in RPG's tho.
That and the ubiqutous "My Ranger wears chain mail because its sneaky" crap

[arcady]

I HATE arbitrary limits so I don't want to just say, no you can't have a 20 STR. So what are some other ways to prevent this from happening in the future.Beat the -BLEEP- out them with characters that are themed with skills and skill levels but moderate stats, then pass out the character sheets of your thugs.

In a DnD game we learned to fear goblins with a few rogue levels - you can pull that trick in Fantasy Hero with the 'sneak attack' talent - Can't recall it's actual name, but its there.

It's also a lot of fun to built someone who can do ultra sweep manuevers with a polearm.

Or a low strength skill-leveled out archer.

Or just -flash- them with a low key mage, and then run in with the sneak attack goblins...

STR is not the only path to obscene min-maxing in Hero, and if you want to break them out of it, just make a party of NPCs that uses multiple other methods, none of which are based on STR.

Of course, they'll still min-max, but at least they might start doing it with variety.

[Foxx!]

Personally, I dont worry about it. Whats the point of enticing people to play a game system that lets you model your character as you please within point limits and campaign appropriatness, only to turn around and say "no, you cant have a 20 STR (or whatever) -- Billy already has that"?

I encourage players not to step on each other's shticks too much, but there are so many ways to build things in the HERO System that two characters having similar stats does not necessarily mean they are similar characters by any means.
I agree.

I don't use CHAR limits and everything is ok. Players usually spend points on Skills, Talents, etc. The only CHAR rule I use is that naturally a CHAR can be raised only 1 value each session, unless you have a special condition: a wish, etc.

Cheers!

[Agemegos]

STR is not the only path to obscene min-maxing in Hero, and if you want to break them out of it, just make a party of NPCs that uses multiple other methods, none of which are based on STR.

True, but the thing is that STR 20 is hardly obscene min-maxing when you have a 150-point character to build. STR 20 is as cheap as chips, and just about any concept works better with STR 20.

What does a 350-point brick typically spend on STR? 50 points? 60 points? And he has multiple defenses to buy as well. These characters are spending a much lower proportion of their points on STR.

You really can't blame players. The rules make STR good and cheap. They give you every reason to buy it an non to refrain. Given 150 points to spend, building a fighting character without STR 20 is like going to work without pants.

[Ner0Sputnik]

This is one thing that my STR 20 players haven't done. I am going to abuse them with STR 15 NPC's.

This is how I explain balance to my players.

"In this campaign, your average human is going to have an 8-10 str. Average heroes will have 13-15. Exceptionally strong heroes might have an 18. Now, what you're all starting here is a cold war. If you all want to go up to 20 Str then I just make my villains accordingly. Whereas they were Str 10 before with your 13s now they'll be 15-18 to your 20s. Would you rather spend the points elsewhere or start this vicious cycle?"

They invariably go for lower points. It's also important to ask why they all want 20 strengths and then try to come with a middle ground.
"Well, I want to do more damage with my broadsword."
"OK, how about taking combat levels and using them to increse your damage? Maybe your character has done extensive training on finding kill areas and chinks in armor?"

There are so many ways to achieve powers, don't be afraid to set up some limits and work with the characters to give them the characters they want to play.

[Ner0Sputnik]

Third, why do you want your average City Guard to be a match for your PCs? As someone else mentioned, this seems rather unheroic. If the City Guard are on par with the PCs why aren't they tackling the missions the PCs are being sent on?

This is an excellent point. My players and I all agree that one on one the guard should be far less impressive and easy to defeat. Their strength should be their numbers and their teamwork. So, if you have your PC group of 3 run into 5 guards they should be able to overpower them... as long as none of them gets to his horn to call for backup.

[AnotherSkip]

And your players want to play heroes, so they want to wield common weapons well. So naturally they buy strength.

Fantasy HERO has a bit of a problem jammed down in the lower end of a representation scale meant for Spiderman, the Hulk, and Superman. There are only five values for strength in the 'normal' range that are functionally different from one another. For heroic characters, HERO is a very low resolution character representation system.

Stength is very important (especially with HERO's ridiculously high strength minima in force). You can't expect people not to buy it at the price. If you won't raise the price, and won't bring in rationing, I am afraid that you are snookered.

The only out I can suggest is to raise the maximum normal strength to 25 or even 30. Otherwise you are going to have to tell you players to adapt tothe truth: STR is nothing very much in HERO System, it is cheap and effective and every combat character has it. If they want to characterise themelves as big strong guys, they will have to shell out for three or five points at double cost.

Well I think some of the problem isn't just with Hero, 1ed AD&D Str meant almost _nothing_ unless you had 8- or 15+ on a typically 3-4d6 bell curve, something like 60+% of rolls weren't spectacular.
Heck most Stats in 1st and 2nd AD&D meant little unless they were supernormal.
And yes it did lead to a wide swath of characters (and items) with supernormal stats

having said that I have a mageish character with 13 Str and 17 Dex, go from 150 points to 200ish(difficult keeping track at the moment) and only ever spend 3 points anywhere on stats to take the 17 Dex to 18, only for the Dex Skill benefits.
IMNSHO Once the Stats are "perfected" for the character most people leave well enough alone and go for other things to buy....



Heck just ask the guys to have one have 20 Str, and the rest have 18, the difference is pretty minimal.

Or even ask the Strong brick of the group go with 23 STR, whilist asking everyone else to go for a 20 Max.

23 Str however is not really worth it, but don't trell them I said that....

and actually Martial Arts with a low dex and high CSL's is a frightning thing.... (trade 20 dex for 11 dex and 9 CSL's w/ Martial Arts....)

[Krieghandt]

One system I havent seen listed is the one I use. Characters cant always afford the stats they need at creation, so they suffer from "battle wounds" (str and con loss) or such, until they can buy up their stats, and find the needed healer/trainer to help them. After they hit their concept in a stat, I charge +1 pt for each increase, accumaltive. ie, dex 15 -16 is 4 pts, 16 - 17 is 5 pts, and I double the total cost at 20+. You can expect some increase in your players stats, but your academy mage wont be passing Conan in the str department any time soon. Nor will you need to be "the bad guy"; if your mage wants to be as strong as Ahnold, he'll pay through the nose to do it. :eek:
Krieghandt