Game of Thrones

[Tyrant]

Man,
I am Soooo looking forward to running a game in that setting.
The map is easy to get, there doesn't seem to be too much magic to give one a headache, and the Hero system is idealy suited for this low magic fantasy style.

Anyone else thought about running a game in George R R Martin's setting?

Tyrant

[Old Man]

Might not be as easy as it sounds--there's a hell of a lot of intrigue and politics in that series, and a distinct lack of non-human foes south of the Wall. But if you've got intelligent players who actually don't have to be led around by the nose, this wouldn't be a problem.

Also, while it's been low magic so far, there are hints that it isn't going to stay that way. But then again the guy averages one book every two years, so your campaign might be over before you have to worry about any of that.

Excellent, excellent books. Wish the guy could write faster, but I won't mind as long as he eventually finishes with no drop in quality...

[Tyrant]

Same here!
I was on the G RR Martin website earlier.
He's still working on the fourth book.
Now again, if the series keeps up the level of quality we've come to expect, I don't mind the wait. But there's still 2 more books after this. I just hope he doesn't punk out and decide that he's had enough before the series is finished.

That would p*** me off to no end...

[Old Man]

Actually there's three books left after this one. Book 4 was supposed to be "A Dance with Dragons", but it got pushed back to 5; Feast for Crows is up next. I forget what the other two books are supposed to be called.

In other words, the series probably won't be finished until 2009, assuming GRRM maintains his current pace and doesn't see fit to add any more books. This is why I usually don't buy in to fantasy series that are yet unfinished... but AGoT was sooooo gooooood...

[allen]

Originally posted by Old Man
Actually there's three books left after this one. Book 4 was supposed to be "A Dance with Dragons", but it got pushed back to 5; Feast for Crows is up next. I forget what the other two books are supposed to be called.

In other words, the series probably won't be finished until 2009, assuming GRRM maintains his current pace and doesn't see fit to add any more books. This is why I usually don't buy in to fantasy series that are yet unfinished... but AGoT was sooooo gooooood...

Ah, Old Man, you are not alone... I too don't usually start reading a series until it's over, but Game of Thrones was really good (and I don't even like "epic" fantasy very much). And the next two were just as good... which was hard to believe, given my experience with other series in the same genre/sub-genre.

I also read somewhere that the series was <i>at least</i> six books... have you heard it's definitely six?

allen

Ps. I find the time GRRM takes to write the books to be comforting. I mean at least he's not just hacking them out.

Pps. There's a novella in the latest issue of Dragon Magazine (<i>Arms of the Kraken</i> I think it's called). I believe it's an excerpt from <i>Feast of Crows</i>.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by allen
Ah, Old Man, you are not alone... I too don't usually start reading a series until it's over, but Game of Thrones was really good (and I don't even like "epic" fantasy very much). And the next two were just as good... which was hard to believe, given my experience with other series in the same genre/sub-genre.

I also read somewhere that the series was <i>at least</i> six books... have you heard it's definitely six?

allen

Ps. I find the time GRRM takes to write the books to be comforting. I mean at least he's not just hacking them out.

Pps. There's a novella in the latest issue of Dragon Magazine (<i>Arms of the Kraken</i> I think it's called). I believe it's an excerpt from <i>Feast of Crows</i>.

Definately 6 books. The first three a five year break. Three more books.

[allen]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Definately 6 books. The first three a five year break. Three more books.

Hallelujah

[MuscaDomestica]

Slight spoilers

I thought it was going to be 7 books, Feast of Crows was added later because the five year span was too interesting to be backstory... Which should be good, no major character deaths in this book.

I am not saying I want my characters to all live and be happy even if they act like idiots but there was a point in the third book where I put the book down and immediately started asking friends and posting on boards to see if it started to go a little better for the characters... because I was about to stop reading the book after that scene (It should be obvious which scene it is... and I would like to give the Martin points for doing something that shocking.)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by MuscaDomestica
Slight spoilers

I thought it was going to be 7 books, Feast of Crows was added later because the five year span was too interesting to be backstory... Which should be good, no major character deaths in this book.

That would make a HUGE amount of sense, since the next one was suppose to be 'A Dance with Dragons'. So we have a Feast for Crows as a link between the two trilogies... very nice.

[allen]

Originally posted by MuscaDomestica
Slight spoilers

I thought it was going to be 7 books, Feast of Crows was added later because the five year span was too interesting to be backstory... Which should be good, no major character deaths in this book.


I have to admit, hearing this makes me go 'uh-oh'. But I'll attempt to swallow my doubt, since the man has written three entertaining books.

*SPOILERS AHOY*

Concerning character death: For me, that's one of the definite strengths of the series. The epic fantasy of nowadays (I guess specifically, Jordan, Goodkin, et al.) truly isn't my cup of tea; but Martin uses death to bring one story in the larger one to a close. For instance, Ned Stark is central to the first novel, and when you reach the end of Game of Thrones, his story is over. I mean, yeah, it's tragic -- even Tywin Lannister's death is tragic (to me at least -- I could sympathize with the man -- and I guess I should say presumed death). Basically, some individual stories comprising the series have their own closure, and I like that.

[Tyrant]

I keep thinking that HERO would be ideal to run a game set in Westeros.

Now granted, the books aren't finished yet and we don't know everything there is about the world, but I think there's enough that I could run a game set in the seven kingdoms.

Magic would be the only hard thing to figure out. But I guess how one handles the issue depends on what time peroid the game is set. But if I were to run it, I would most likely require a high level of "increased time" and certainly "concentraton".

[allen]

Originally posted by Tyrant
Magic would be the only hard thing to figure out. But I guess how one handles the issue depends on what time peroid the game is set. But if I were to run it, I would most likely require a high level of "increased time" and certainly "concentraton".

My opinion may change as the series progresses, but if I were to run a campaign within the setting, I wouldn't allow the PCs magic. In fact, I might consider... ummm... convincing one or more players to take a Psych Lim: Doesn't Believe In Magic (or Believes Magic No Longer Exists or whatever). Mainly because, I think the "return of magic" story/plot element is one of the more interesting aspects of the story, and would like to capture that over the course of the campaign.

[Tyrant]

Hmmm,
that's a pretty good point.
Actually, I kind of like the idea of running a gritty setting like Westeros without magic. That way, when magic does play a part, it has that much more impact.

What I think will really fit in nicely with the setting, are the mass combat combat rules that Steve mentioned would be included in Fantasy HERO.

I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the MAJOR beefs I have with most fantasy games on the market today, is the utter lack of effort in comming up with playable mass combat rules. And considering how often a fantasy setting is affected by war, I find that fact all the more annoying. It grates on my nerves that such an obvious dramatic tool gets treated, if at all, like an afterthought.

I've often wanted to run a "from rags to riches" game, in which my players carve out a kingdom or empire for themselves. But because running a war is so hard in most games, we usually either have to skim over the details, which really sucks, or we have to fudge a bunch of rules that only barely work. I hate it!

But if Fantasy HERO gives me the tools I need to run mass battles in a proper way, and maybe some suggestions for managing armies, I'll be an instant convert.

Tyrant

[allen]

Originally posted by Tyrant

What I think will really fit in nicely with the setting, are the mass combat combat rules that Steve mentioned would be included in Fantasy HERO.


yessir, good point. i think you are correct... it would be difficult to capture the 'feel' of the series w/o armies on the move and clashing, and a good set of mass combat rules would do wonders.

allen

ps. although, the novels avoid describing battle scenes as i recall... the occassional flashback or character describing the events of the battle to another, but otherwise avoided.

still, i think in an RPG it'd be important to get those in there and allow the players to play an active part in the outcome.

[CleverName]

Okay, I'm going to mention d20 here.

(Pauses to put up massive ED shielding.)

I believe the next Dungeon/Polyhedron (#157) is going to have d20 writeup of Westeros.

Sould be a good resource. ;)

[CleverName]

Originally posted by Tyrant
I keep thinking that HERO would be ideal to run a game set in Westeros.

Now granted, the books aren't finished yet and we don't know everything there is about the world, but I think there's enough that I could run a game set in the seven kingdoms.

Magic would be the only hard thing to figure out. But I guess how one handles the issue depends on what time peroid the game is set. But if I were to run it, I would most likely require a high level of "increased time" and certainly "concentraton".

I think that magic in Westeros should not be weilded by PCs other than via items.

Its really a game of politics, war and interaction.

[Hermit]

An excellent series. If anyone ever starts a Fantasy HERO PBEM on this, I would not be surprised if it got more takers than it could handle.

[allen]

An article concerning Westeros will appear in Dragon #307 (May issue)... here's the blurb:

"Westeros Campaign by Wolfgang and Shelly Baur

Visist the blood and pageantry of Westeros, the world created by George R.R. Martin in his best-selling series, 'A Song of Ice and Fire.' From the brothers of the Night's Watch to the treachery of House Lannister, Westeros is world of epic scope filled with danger, deceit, and ancient secrets. This special setting includes a poster-size mapg of the continent of Westeros, the tools you need to adventure in this amazing world, and a detailed look at the setting's most prominent characters, organizations, and noble houses. Plus, an exclusive interview with George R.R. Martin."

Anyway, I'll try to post a Table of Contents when I get the issue next month... if nothing else, it might make a good primer for players unfamilar with the novels, and a poster-sized map is always a plus.

[Old Man]

From georgerrmartin.com:

"The May DRAGON (issue #307) will be a special Westeros issue. A spendid cover painting, by Hugo-nominated artist Donato Giancola, depicts everybody's favorite red priestess, Melisandre of Asshai. Inside, readers will find art and articles about the world of the Seven Kingdoms, including scenarios and suggestions for role-playing campaigns set on the Wall, or amongst the backstabbers and intriguers of King's Landing. The issue will also feature a full-color fold out map of Westeros, north and south, and a brand new interview with yours truly."

Should be a good resource. :)

[ShadowRaptor]

Not only the Dragon 307 article, but I also read somewhere that there is going to be a hardback campaign setting about his books later this year for d20.

[artmc]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
Not only the Dragon 307 article, but I also read somewhere that there is going to be a hardback campaign setting about his books later this year for d20.

Okay here is the product blurb:

GoO gets 'A Song of Ice and Fire' (http://www.guardiansorder.com/#martin)
It contains a link for the whole press release. It seems like it will be both Tri-Stat & d20, in seperate rule books. I believe it will be full color, but I could be very wrong. It is slated for autumn 2003. Guardians of Order getting this is a big surprise, since Martin is a long time GURPS player/fan.

Several systems can do Westeros/A Song of Ice and Fire, very well:
Hero (of course!!)
Pendragon
The Riddle of Steel (my current choice for this)
GURPS
Tri-Stat (I really want to see what GoO does with this)
d20 (needs changes, but could work)

Others systems could work as well, though.

I hope this helps.


* art *

[AnotherSkip]

Frankly i would like to run/play the previous age of magic....

Those few notes and the extrapolation of the magic and dragnos would be a WORLD of wonders. and no books likely to screw up the details if he focusses no a place i would have liked to cover also/have allready covered.

Besides the Star eyed guy sounds pretty cool.

[Old Man]

I'm actually a lot more interested in the non-Westerosi part of that setting. The Dothraki, Qarth, Braavos, Old Valyria, Meereen and Astapor... all much more exotic than Westeros, Wall or not.

[allen]

So as stated elsewhere, Dragon #307 has some d20 info for gaming in Westeros. I've read through the material and brief summary and comments follow if anyone's interested...

It's about 18 pages in length, plus there's an interview with George R.R. Martin. The gaming stuff is authored by Wolfgang and Shelly Baur. It begins with a page and half summary of the history of Westeros. Then moves on to discuss two possible campaigns ideas. I'll summarize with section headings...

THE SAGA OF WESTEROS

Westeros History, Abridged [maybe 1 full page of text]
>House Targaryen
>House Baratheon
>House Lannister

The Secret War [1 paragraph concerning what's going on north of the Wall]

Sidebar: The Kingsguard and King's Hand

THE AWAKENING DARKNESS: THE ICE WALL CAMPAIGN

The Wall
>The Night's Watch [4 para. descrip.]
>The Keeps [2 para. descrip.]
>Mole Town [1 para. descrip.]

The Night's Watch Ranger [description of Prestige Class]

Sidebar: Jon Snow [character sheet]

The Starks of Winterfell [4 para. descrip mostly concerning Eddard and Catelyn's children]
>The Magic of the North [3 para. descrip -- no rules]

King Stannis I Baratheon [5 para. descrip of why King Stannis comes north with his army]
>Religion in the North [3 para. descrip. -- no rules]

Sidebar: Melisandre [character sheet]

Beyond the Wall [6 para. descrip. -- mostly concerning Mance Rayder and the Free Folk]

Barrow-Wights, Giants, and the Others [4 para. descrip -- no rules]

Boxed Text: Monster Equivalents [5 monsters from the novels and their D&D equivalent]

Ice Wall Adventures [4 plot seeds]

THE CLASH OF KINGS: THE ROYAL CAMPAIGN FOR THE THRONE OF WESTEROS
[this section describes, in brief, the five kings vying for the throne of Westeros, their allies, and "stronghold."]

The Lannisters [7 paragraph description]
>Lannister Adventure Seeds [3 plot seeds]
>Lannister Bannermen [describes 4 allies]
>Stonghold: King's Landing

Sidebar: Tyrion Lannister [character sheet]

King Stannis I Baratheon [4 para. descrip.]
>Baratheon Adventure Seeds [4 plot seeds]
>Baratheon Bannermen [describes 3 allies]
>Stonghold: Dragonstone Island [1 para. descrip.]

Sidebar: Sandor Clegane [character sheet]

Boxed Text: The Master of Coin [descrip. of Littlefinger]

The Targaryen Heir [4 para. descrip.]
>Targaryen Bannermen [describes 4 allies]
>Stronghold [1 paragraph]

Sidebar: King Stannis I Baratheon [character sheet]

King of the Iron Islands [7 para. descrip.]
>Iron Island Adventures [3 plot seeds]
>Greyjoy Bannermen [describes 2 allies]
>Stronghold: Pyke, Capital of the Iron Islands

Sidebar: Daenerys Targaryen [character sheet -- watch out! she can cast Burning Hands 7 times a day... yeah, that's sarcasm.]

Boxed Text: Dragons of Westeros [2 para. descrip.]

Boxed Text: How Westeros Is Different [focuses on four differences btwn Westeros and "typical D&D campaign world": Seasons, History, Mass Combat, and Social Class, Followers, and Wealth.]

The Starks, Kings of the North [9 para. descrip.]
>Stark Bannermen [Describes 4 allies]
>Stronghold: Winterfell

Sidebar: The Brotherhood without Banners [couple of paragraphs about Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr]

Box Text: Magic In Westeros [4 paragraphs, describing 3 options]

NOTE: I noted above which characters were given character sheets; a level and class are noted for most other characters where they appear in the text.

One caveat: Some of the material is wrong or misleading.

For instance, page 91, in the section concerning Davos Seaworth: "...he saved Stannis' Dragonstone Island by bringing in food during a seige." It was the siege of Storm's End.

Page 92, in the section concerning Barristan Selmy: "His Dornish connections could move the Tyrells to Daenerys' side." Huh? The Tyrells are in Highgarden; the Martell's in Dorne...

To be blunt, I've only read the novels once, it's been a couple months since I finished the latest one, and I caught some mistakes. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more.

Anyway, to sum this up... might be good to get the 'creative juices flowing' for potential GMs, might be alright as a sort of 'player primer', and it does have a pullout map of Westeros which is the size of a small poster (not of the continent, I'm afraid)... Also provides plenty of classes and levels for characters and -- if you agree with the classes and/or levels, or aren't picky -- this could provide a good yardstick for stating them out in other systems...

[AnotherSkip]

I'm Too Picky.

(Burning hands _seven Times a Day_ Woohooooo HOt hot hot hot.. Stab, Kill, Okies now off to the three dragons..... [actually in AD&D it is Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn, Kill.] ASSUMING OF COURSE you get her alone)

[allen]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
I'm Too Picky.

(Burning hands _seven Times a Day_ Woohooooo HOt hot hot hot.. Stab, Kill, Okies now off to the three dragons..... [actually in AD&D it is Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn Stab Burn, Kill.] ASSUMING OF COURSE you get her alone)

heh... well, to be fair, the rest of her spell selection isn't too bad and is in general enchantment/illusion spells, but it is, admittedly, a tre' D&D character write-up of Daenyrs (sp?) and not how I would've done it using the same system... to each their own, I guess.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

IMNSHO, a Westeros campaign fits finest with the WFRP game system.

As for managing an army, just remember that an army may fight fiercely, but to keep it together you've got to be more a quartermaster than a general. Quartermasters have won and lost more battles than any general. For Champions, though, the obvious choice is to use an opposed Tactics vs. Tactics roll (to decide the overall battle), then permit the non-generals to get involved with some small-scale fighting -- maybe they won their part of the battle, but overall their general sucked, and thus the battle was lost. Or whatever.

[Tyrant]

This is why I'm anxious to see what Steve does for mass combat rules in Fantasy Hero. For a setting like Westeros, it's almost a must have.

I've recently purchased a copy of Pendragon, from Green Knight publishing, specifically with the idea of running a Westeros game in mind. The rules for mass combat are what convinced me to plunk down my cash and pick it up.

[TheQuestionMan]

A Song of Fire and Ice (aka A Game of Thrones) Resources

A Song of Fire and Ice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire

A Game of Thrones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Game_of_Thrones_%28role-playing_game%29

Green Ronin - A Song of Fire and Ice RPG Forums
http://www.greenronin.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=29&sid=ee86f3f94e6cb63a325bed0c5e48dcb2

A Song of Fire and Ice Wikia
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page


I particuallry liked this setting and often wondered what kind of campaign I would run in it. In the end I decided the Night's Watch for some reason they strike he greatest cord in me. I wonder why?


LOL


QM

[Magmarock]

I love this series! I can't tell you how great it was to read a story where the characters are unique, consistantly written and yet are still able to evolve.

I love that I wasn't following every single living moment of one or two main characters... the author spends time only on the interesting things that are happening- to several characters on all sides of the conflict- which left me wanting more.

Great dialog. Unexpected plot twists. And the author is not afraid to alter his characters, giving the story a realistic feeling to it. Good things happen. Bad things happen more often. It keeps you on your toes.


Looking forward to the next book.

Mags

[Cargus10]

Another good resource for ASOIAF is http://www.westeros.org/

I just hope he gets the next book done this year :nonp:

[Twilight]

Another good resource for ASOIAF is http://www.westeros.org/

I just hope he gets the next book done this year :nonp:

As do I.

Just finished the first book last night, loved it and now I have to find out how everything turns out.

[Cargus10]

I've read them all, and am now listening to the audio versions (great for long car or airplane trips). Those rock too.

And if you can find them, be sure to read his "Dunk & Egg" stories about Ser Duncan the Tall and Egg his squire, set maybe 150 years before the novels. Good stuff.

[BlackSword]

Anyone else thought about running a game in George R R Martin's setting?

I made a house roll that at the beginning of each session every player flips a coin, heads their character dies. Tails someting terrible happens to their character and the character wants to die. It really captured the spirit of the novels. ;):)

[Twilight]

I made a house roll that at the beginning of each session every player flips a coin, heads their character dies. Tails someting terrible happens to their character and the character wants to die. It really captured the spirit of the novels. ;):)

Well I wouldn't go quite -that- far. All but one of the point of view characters did survive the first book after all. It's dark certainly, but it's not a VC Andrews book. :p;)

On further thought though, it does seem that giving the majority of the characters the players interact with the psych lim: dishonorable poopyhead (or words to that effect :P ) would be quite appropriate for the setting indeed.

[Curufea]

I've read them all, and am now listening to the audio versions (great for long car or airplane trips). Those rock too.

And if you can find them, be sure to read his "Dunk & Egg" stories about Ser Duncan the Tall and Egg his squire, set maybe 150 years before the novels. Good stuff.

Their available in the Legends (http://www.librarything.com/work/4089229) and Legends II (http://www.librarything.com/work/4038999/book/11691777) fantasy anthologies (I've got them :) )

[Maur]

I enjoyed the books, but have been put off by the author's claim that the last book printed was split the way it was because it was getting too big. That meant that he had the other half with the other characters in it, and yet that book has yet to surface after a few years... Now it seems that it hadn't been written at all as a recent update indicates that he has still been working on it over the last 10+ months...

[Old Man]

He's been working on a lot of other stuff too. I can't remember the details but it's any or all of putting out a book of short stories, editing a short story anthology, cowriting another book with someone else, and working on another Wild Cards novel.

Having read books 1-4 it's becoming increasingly apparent that he's got way too much going on in the series. I think he's reached a point where he can't just sit down and write without doing a lot of research into what he's already written and hinted at, to keep things consistent yet moving in the direction he wants them to go. There's an army of fans out there analyzing literally every phrase he writes, and he dare not make any mistakes in continuity or they'll come after him with pitches and torchforks.

[Twilight]

I wonder if he gets sympathy letters from JK Rowling? I imagine she knows exactly how that feels. :D

[ParagonAlpha]

I just finished "A Feast of Crows".

There is nothing more desperate than me waiting for the next book.

Robert Jordan did it to me...

Now George RR Martin is doing it to me...

Granted he did it to me back in the 80's with Wild Cards.

I should have been prepared.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

I wonder if he gets sympathy letters from JK Rowling? I imagine she knows exactly how that feels. :D

I sincerely hope not. Rowlings hasn't nearly the chops George RR has; comparatively, she got lucky.

[Twilight]

I sincerely hope not. Rowlings hasn't nearly the chops George RR has; comparatively, she got lucky.

Right, she got lucky. :rolleyes: Writing seven phenomonally popular books had nothing to do with being a good writer, it was just luck. :rolleyes:

[Twilight]

Having gotten half way through A Clash of Kings I have to ask, does anybody else feel like George R R Martin -really- doesn't like the Starks? It seems like half the calamity he dumps on characters always lands on the Starks. Good book mind you, and I'm not going to stop reading the series over it but still what does he have against those poor Starks?

[Maur]

Bad things happen to good people. They just happen to be in the way of the ambition and power climbing of others who have fewer compunctions against killing an obstacle.

[Twilight]

Bad things happen to good people. They just happen to be in the way of the ambition and power climbing of others who have fewer compunctions against killing an obstacle.

To me it's starting to seem as though the Lannisters are one giant family of Mary Sues and the whole of the North are thier buttmonkeys. :mad: If things don't pick up with the third and fourth books I'm going to seriously regret purchasing them.

The whole bit with Theon Greyjoy was particularly inane. Making 90% of the characters ****heads doesn't equal realism, killing off all the characters who are remotely likable doesn't equal good writing.

[Cargus10]

Oh, do keep reading. Trust me, things....happen to the Lannisters as well. And there are some truly memorable villains, but there are also some pretty inspiring heroes as well - but everyone has shades of grey. Except maybe Gregor Clegane. He's just pure psycopathic eeeeeeevilllll.

[Twilight]

Oh, do keep reading. Trust me, things....happen to the Lannisters as well. And there are some truly memorable villains, but there are also some pretty inspiring heroes as well - but everyone has shades of grey. Except maybe Gregor Clegane. He's just pure psycopathic eeeeeeevilllll.

Oh I'm willing to give the series a chance, just on the strength of the first book. That said, the last part of the second book left me rather cold. The entire subplot with Theon Greyjoy seemed particularly pointless and, dare I say it, pulled from the author's bottom. Could've done without that easily.

[Twilight]

I made a house roll that at the beginning of each session every player flips a coin, heads their character dies. Tails someting terrible happens to their character and the character wants to die. It really captured the spirit of the novels. ;):)

On further consideration after finishing the second book, I think a better way to capture the spirit of the novels would be to give the conniving unlikable characters a certain amount of luck, whereas the likable and honourable people recieve a certain amount of unluck.

[Old Man]

What's interesting about the series is the general lack of black-and-white likable/unlikable characters. Jaime, for example, is portrayed as mostly eeevil in the first book, but in the second, where he becomes a POV character and we see what motivates him, he becomes... not good, but not evil either, just badly flawed in a couple of ways. Of course a couple of even the POV characters seem to have very few redeeming characteristics.

[Markdoc]

Yep, one of the marks of success of this series is that it affects people so strongly: most readers care about the characters - enough so that when something bad happens to them, you feel outraged. You even care about the evil characters - if only that they get what's hopefully coming to them.

I do expect, by the way, that the Lannisters are going to get what's coming to them (in fact, it's already started). But based on his past books, Martin likes to put his characters (and readers) through the grinder on the way to the conclusion. I don't recall any of his stuff that I have read having easy, happy endings.

I don't mind: there are precious few fantasy series these days that can hold my interest as well as this series has done.

cheers

[Cargus10]

There are a lot of flawed characters in the books. Caetlyn Stark is a major one, IMO. She is, in some ways, the cause of much of the crap that occurs.

And while you do tend to care about even the villains, there are a few that are just uniformly unsavory. Cersei Lannister, for example, or the aforementioned Gregor Clegane. But there are some real diamonds in the rough too, like Davos Seaworth or Brienne.

[Twilight]

There are a lot of flawed characters in the books. Caetlyn Stark is a major one, IMO. She is, in some ways, the cause of much of the crap that occurs.

And while you do tend to care about even the villains, there are a few that are just uniformly unsavory. Cersei Lannister, for example, or the aforementioned Gregor Clegane. But there are some real diamonds in the rough too, like Davos Seaworth or Brienne.

Pity the author clearly enjoys killing off said diamonds in the rough. In fact, most of the characters I found likable in the first book were either killed off or turned into unlikable ***** by the end of book four. Since he's not actively replacing these likable characters with more likable characters, I feel disinclined to continue reading the series.

[Cargus10]

Yeah. if he offs Jon Snow or makes him into a *****, I'll be very upset. Although, if you look on the fan forums, a ton of people absolutely HATE Jon Snow because he's "the good guy". Apparently being honorable makes for boring characters...who knew?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm not all that into anti-heroes, particularly when there is scope for them and heroes as well.

[Twilight]

Yeah. if he offs Jon Snow or makes him into a *****, I'll be very upset. Although, if you look on the fan forums, a ton of people absolutely HATE Jon Snow because he's "the good guy". Apparently being honorable makes for boring characters...who knew?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm not all that into anti-heroes, particularly when there is scope for them and heroes as well.

I don't mind the occassional anti-hero here and there but not when they're the only characters present. I guess I'm old fashioned too but when I read a story I like to have characters who are actually heroic, or at the very least likable, in them. Especially when the story in question is epic fantasy.

Given what Martin has done in the past books in the series however, I'm sure the three remaining characters I like will end up dead or ******** by the time the series is over.

[Old Man]

The thing is, even the most likable characters are not pure heroes any more than the cads are pure antiheroes. Consider Ned Stark. The first time you read Book 1, he's obviously a good guy, right? Read it again and he's an inflexible, rigid, dangerously naive boy scout. Jon Snow is flawed too, just not to that extent.

[Cargus10]

Some flaws are cool - everyone has them. I just don't want the flaws taking over EVERYONE. Ned had issues, for sure, but he really did know a lot of his limitations. He was kind of forced into a situation that he *knew* he wasn't cut out for, and it cost him.

Think of Ned as "Stannis lite". Only not as ruthless.

[Twilight]

Some flaws are cool - everyone has them. I just don't want the flaws taking over EVERYONE. Ned had issues, for sure, but he really did know a lot of his limitations. He was kind of forced into a situation that he *knew* he wasn't cut out for, and it cost him.

Think of Ned as "Stannis lite". Only not as ruthless.

And judging by Stannis' actions during book 2, somewhat brighter too. Apparently all of Westeros knew he that if he sailed into King's Landing near the beginning of the conflict he'd take the city and the Lannisters there would be boned, including Tyrion and Cersei Lannister so naturally Stannis does something else. :rolleyes:

[Nolgroth]

On further consideration after finishing the second book, I think a better way to capture the spirit of the novels would be to give the conniving unlikable characters a certain amount of luck, whereas the likable and honourable people recieve a certain amount of unluck.Yeah, like about 25,000d6 of Unluck if the character has a shred of decency in them. The sad part is, I read book 1 and I was pretty well entertained by how the author writes. I was put off by how everybody who seemed decent or was likeable, was maimed or killed in some horrible fashion. I stopped reading at that point and took the two books that I had down to the used book store and picked up something else.

The fact that the author could make me angry by where he carried the story tells me that he is good at what he does. The fact that he glorifies the "bad" guys (IMO) is deplorable and I refuse to buy into that more than I already have.

All that being said, I would love to see SOFAI role-playing game (or something like that) that would go into how to build up court intrigue and international politics in a medieval setting. The mechanics of it interest me greatly, but I'm afraid that I would end up with my head chopped off for being too much of a straight arrow in GRRM's books.

[Cargus10]

Oh, it really does get better as some of the nasties start getting their own comeuppance in book 3. And it's very satisfying when it happens, indeed. I felt like you did, almost...but the ending of the third book, the last few chapters....holy hell, that rocked.

[Markdoc]

Oh, it really does get better as some of the nasties start getting their own comeuppance in book 3. And it's very satisfying when it happens, indeed. I felt like you did, almost...but the ending of the third book, the last few chapters....holy hell, that rocked.

Yep, my feeling is that he gives the bad guys very much the upper hand in the first few books so that the readers a) know that they are seriously nasty and tough, to boot and b) the readers go "Yeah!" when the bad guys start to bite the dust.

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Yeah, like about 25,000d6 of Unluck if the character has a shred of decency in them. The sad part is, I read book 1 and I was pretty well entertained by how the author writes. I was put off by how everybody who seemed decent or was likeable, was maimed or killed in some horrible fashion.

Honestly, I think that while GRRM is extremely hard on his characters, what he's really doing is brutalizing fantasy tropes. He'll start a subplot down a pretty well-worn path and then, rather suddenly, veer sharply off of it. There was a princess who was very apprehensive about her arranged marriage to a barbarian king; her ultimate reaction was not stereotypical. There was another princess who was ecstatic to be married to the king of her dreams, and she didn't get a fairy tale ending either. Nor did the direwolves, after they were so carefully matched up to the Stark children in the first few chapters of the book; or the orphaned girl who was secretly taught to fence; or the shieldmaiden who turned out to be neither fair nor even that great in combat; nor the rebel prince who took up arms against those who unjustly slew his father; nor the best swordsman in the land.

Unpredictability, in a word, is GRRM's hallmark in this series. Not all the surprises are brutal outcomes for the characters, but many are, simply because he's breaking so many cliched fairytale endings. Any author has to be hard on his characters around the middle of the story, to build up dramatic tension and reader sympathy--and the middle of the story is about where we are now.

[Eosin]

I love the books. Sometimes, I hate them so much that my wife wonders why the book got thrown out the backdoor into the yard. But it is a good kind of hate....

I can't wait for book 5 to solve the Breianne mystery, for now I'll have to see what the hell happened to the Onion Knight. I am also dying to see the thing that Clegane has become.

[Twilight]

I love the books. Sometimes, I hate them so much that my wife wonders why the book got thrown out the backdoor into the yard. But it is a good kind of hate....

I can't wait for book 5 to solve the Breianne mystery, for now I'll have to see what the hell happened to the Onion Knight. I am also dying to see the thing that Clegane has become.

If I become curious, I'll find some spoilers to look it up in. Reading the books will only get me annoyed, which will in turn make me unpleasent to be around thus annoying my friends. Reading the spoilers will be less annoying.

[Inu]

Yep, my feeling is that he gives the bad guys very much the upper hand in the first few books so that the readers a) know that they are seriously nasty and tough, to boot and b) the readers go "Yeah!" when the bad guys start to bite the dust.

cheers, Mark
They're also based (quite loosely) on historical events. Perhaps more precisely, inspired by a historical milieu. I don't know how closely it follows it, because I don't know that particular era very well.

History gives us some of the most depressing stories ever -- just see everyone who fought Edward I. Admittedly, I'm biased against him because of various historical novels I've read, but hey, the history is biased enough that any claim to know the motivations of people in that era are based more on bias than fact. ^_-

[Inu]

I've read them all, and am now listening to the audio versions (great for long car or airplane trips). Those rock too.

And if you can find them, be sure to read his "Dunk & Egg" stories about Ser Duncan the Tall and Egg his squire, set maybe 150 years before the novels. Good stuff.
The first two Dunk and Egg stories have been comicised and published as a trade paperback: The Hedge Knight, vols I (http://www.amazon.com/Hedge-Knight-TPB-George-Martin/dp/0785127240/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208449151&sr=8-2) and II (http://www.amazon.com/Hedge-Knight-II-Sworn-Premiere/dp/0785126503/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208449012&sr=8-1).

I've read the first, have the second on order (I didn't know it existed until I looked it up just then!) The first is an excellent book. It's not without casualties, but good wins out! More than its fair share of 'F*#$ YEAH!' moments, to borrow a term.

[Markdoc]

They're also based (quite loosely) on historical events. Perhaps more precisely, inspired by a historical milieu. I don't know how closely it follows it, because I don't know that particular era very well.

I do. :D And although the storyline started closely aligned to the Wars of the Roses - even down to geography - it's veered way off topic since.

History gives us some of the most depressing stories ever -- just see everyone who fought Edward I. Admittedly, I'm biased against him because of various historical novels I've read, but hey, the history is biased enough that any claim to know the motivations of people in that era are based more on bias than fact. ^_-

True dat. GRRM simply doesn't want to tell a standard story and he wants it to have some of the grittiness of real history, plus to keep the readers guessing.

cheers, Mark

[Maur]

I love the books. Sometimes, I hate them so much that my wife wonders why the book got thrown out the backdoor into the yard. But it is a good kind of hate....

I can't wait for book 5 to solve the Breianne mystery, for now I'll have to see what the hell happened to the Onion Knight. I am also dying to see the thing that Clegane has become.

IIRC, book 5 will deal with the other half of the cast that was left out of book 4 due to the way he split the book up. If true, then Catelyn, Brienne, etc... will not be in book 5.

[Old Man]

The Brienne cliffhanger was a little over the top. Maybe GRRM wants an army of fans willing to die to protect him or something, I don't know. But if anything happens to the guy an awful lot of people are going to be screaming, "What was the word? What was the word?!"

[Eosin]

They're also based (quite loosely) on historical events. Perhaps more precisely, inspired by a historical milieu. I don't know how closely it follows it, because I don't know that particular era very well.

I think he does a pretty good job of the rat-bastardry that was the War of the Roses. The thing was full of foul murders, betrayals, and whacked battle outcomes.

IIRC, book 5 will deal with the other half of the cast that was left out of book 4 due to the way he split the book up. If true, then Catelyn, Brienne, etc... will not be in book 5.

Whoops, I meant book 6. I want book 5 but there are some things I really want from book 6.... He'll probably go to the great author in the sky before then like Jordan or Gemmell.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Whoops, I meant book 6. I want book 5 but there are some things I really want from book 6.... He'll probably go to the great author in the sky before then like Jordan or Gemmell.

That's my big fear...he takes So freaking long between books... I'd like to see the series reach a conclusion before he kicks off.

[TheQuestionMan]

Let him kick off and let a fan writer finish the series.

Who would you choose to finish the series though?

QM

[Inu]

Let him kick off and let a fan writer finish the series.

Who would you choose to finish the series though?
Kevin J. Anderson!

*throws self into traffic for even suggesting it*

[Maur]

The Brienne cliffhanger was a little over the top. Maybe GRRM wants an army of fans willing to die to protect him or something, I don't know. But if anything happens to the guy an awful lot of people are going to be screaming, "What was the word? What was the word?!"

Which is funny since Brienne, is a GIRL, heheh.

[Cargus10]

I was a bit disappointed in Book 4 simply because I find the events in the North to be a bit more compelling than those in the South. But it's been a while, and I'm re-reading the series now (or actually, listening. I don't normally do audio books, but this one is very well done and it makes those long air flights go by better). I'm about halfway through book 2 ATM and already wincing at the thought of the upcoming Red Wedding.

[Old Man]

Kevin J. Anderson!

*throws self into traffic for even suggesting it*

I was going to rep you for throwing yourself into traffic for that, but I can't.

I'm having a hard time thinking of authors that would be appropriate. Gaiman? No. Turtledove? No. Ummm... Anne Rice?

[Cargus10]

Glen Cook, maybe? Eric Flint? Hmmm...trying to think of someone that has the same "style" as Martin AND could do epic fantasy. Tad Williams, maybe? Though I just couldn't get into the "Dragonbone Chair" books, I think he could finish up the Ice & Fire books and be readable.

Maybe Raymond Feist? He can sure do the epic part.

[Old Man]

I'd lean towards Cook or maybe Steven Erikson, both of whom have proven ability to do grim epic fantasy. (Although I find Erikson's work to be hopelessly confusing and muddled.)

[Cargus10]

I tried to read Erikson, and just gave up after about 100 pages. I had not one single clue what was going on, even to not being sure who the main characters were. I haven't been that confused since, um....OK, there has to be something. Tristram Shandy, maybe (which I also abandoned).

[Old Man]

I read the wikipedia article on Gardens of the Moon and remembered why it was so confusing. Most characters have at least two names and a title, unannounced narrative jumps of several years, and at least a half dozen seemingly unrelated subplots. I got through it, but it felt like I'd read a short story anthology.

[Maelstrom]

I actually ran SOIAF using the Dogs in the Vineyard rules, to get all the social stuff. Campaign was called "The Second Sons" for obvious reasons, with the tabard replacing the coat. All Valerian steel items had to be named -- one PC had the only piece of Valerian steel ever made into armor . . . lots of fun.

[Twilight]

Wouldn't the proper acronym for the series be SOIAF?

[Old Man]

Shrug. I knew what he meant.

[Maelstrom]

Too much wine. Too much Bakshi.

[Curufea]

Anne Rice?

All of House Lannister convert to Christianity on their deathbeds, only to come back as Vampires.

[Cargus10]

Aw, c'mon. Tyrion Lannister is far to interesting a character for Anne Rice to ever have written.

[Eosin]

Aw, c'mon. Tyrion Lannister is far to interesting a character for Anne Rice to ever have written.

Tyrion is far too... too... something for most authors to write. Think of his attributes, his proclivities, and his actions --- yet, he remains one of the most popular/well liked characters by the readership. He is an abhorrent person but I still like him.

[Cargus10]

Odd...I dont' see him a abhorrent, really, at all. In fact, I see him as one of the "good guys", just crippled by his deformities and who he is related to. Well, OK, he did kind of...um, don't want to give away spoilers, but you have to agree that anyone he has "wronged" sure had it coming to them...

He's certainly one of my favorite characters, along with Jon Snow and Davos Seaworth, though who knows if the latter is still alive or not.

Oh, and as for minor characters, how can you not like Dolorous Edd?

[Old Man]

All of House Lannister convert to Christianity on their deathbeds, only to come back as Vampires.

Lustful, erotic vampires.

[Eosin]

See that's the weird part. Tyrion isn't capable of being in a normal relationship. He prefers whores so he knows where their loyalty lies. He isn't capable of friendship but can buy all the friends one could want. He is a drunken coward. He kills those whom he should not.... He is an abhorrent human being but, like you, I still like him.

[Cargus10]

Oh, I dunno...he only sleeps with whores because that's the only women that will have him - he's a crippled dwarf with mis-matched eyes after all. And you have to admit, his formative years did teach him to be distrustful...but not distrustful enough, it seems. Coward? Well, sort of. Physically you could say he is, but then, I would be afraid to go into combat with a knight too if I were him. Drunken? Not all that much. Sure, he drinks, and likes it, but he's rarely blotto. As for friendship, I think he is capable, if otheres would be friends with him. I'd argue Jon Show is possibly his friend. Oddly, so is his brother Jaime.

And I'm pretty sure everyone he killed he should have...sometimes years too late, granted.

[Eosin]

Oh, I dunno...he only sleeps with whores because that's the only women that will have him - he's a crippled dwarf with mis-matched eyes after all. And you have to admit, his formative years did teach him to be distrustful...but not distrustful enough, it seems. Coward? Well, sort of. Physically you could say he is, but then, I would be afraid to go into combat with a knight too if I were him. Drunken? Not all that much. Sure, he drinks, and likes it, but he's rarely blotto. As for friendship, I think he is capable, if otheres would be friends with him. I'd argue Jon Show is possibly his friend. Oddly, so is his brother Jaime.

And I'm pretty sure everyone he killed he should have...sometimes years too late, granted.

See we agree.... You just have reasons why he is like he is and I certainly didn't say that there weren't some really hunkered aspects to being Tyrion.

:D

[Cargus10]

Indeed :cheers: :eg:- except for the coward part. I think he's very courageous in some ways. And I still say he's one of the "good guys" - well, relative to the rest of the characters, that is. Granted, some of them are true cesspools of depravity...:ugly:

[Twilight]

Of course in the series there's maybe half a dozen people who can qualify as good guys, if that. Of course, I'm sure the author is looking to rectify that in the next book.

[Eosin]

Indeed :cheers: :eg:- except for the coward part. I think he's very courageous in some ways. And I still say he's one of the "good guys" - well, relative to the rest of the characters, that is. Granted, some of them are true cesspools of depravity...:ugly:

I'd say his inner self is a coward but one who struggles against his nature. He is a hero by circumstance. And who isn't a good guy around Gregor?

[Alibear]

Jaime and Brienne are my favourite two characters. In fact the last PC I designed was a Brienne rip-off er..homage. ;)

Is there an RPG of this somewhere? Did I imagine that?

[Maur]

Yes, there is an RPG. The main book was published by Green Ronin, but they don't seem to have it available any longer.

Main RPG Book:
http://www.amazon.com/Game-Thrones-D20-Based-Open-Gaming/dp/1588469425

Two upcoming Adventure books in the above setting:
http://www.amazon.com/Song-Ice-Fire-RPG-Adventure/dp/1934547166/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208967901&sr=8-17
http://www.amazon.com/Song-Ice-Fire-Roleplaying-Adventures/dp/1934547123/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208967870&sr=8-14

And the Latest NOVEL HAS A RELEASE DATE:
http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Dragons-George-R-R-Martin/dp/0553801473/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208967870&sr=8-2

Now we'll see if it will actually hit the streets on said date...

[Old Man]

The Amazon release date is, itself, a work of fiction. Feast for Crows had at least three different Amazon release dates.

[Cargus10]

The only reliable resource for dates is GRRM's own page: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/

[Kristopher]

Honestly, I think that while GRRM is extremely hard on his characters, what he's really doing is brutalizing fantasy tropes. He'll start a subplot down a pretty well-worn path and then, rather suddenly, veer sharply off of it. There was a princess who was very apprehensive about her arranged marriage to a barbarian king; her ultimate reaction was not stereotypical. There was another princess who was ecstatic to be married to the king of her dreams, and she didn't get a fairy tale ending either. Nor did the direwolves, after they were so carefully matched up to the Stark children in the first few chapters of the book; or the orphaned girl who was secretly taught to fence; or the shieldmaiden who turned out to be neither fair nor even that great in combat; nor the rebel prince who took up arms against those who unjustly slew his father; nor the best swordsman in the land.

Unpredictability, in a word, is GRRM's hallmark in this series. Not all the surprises are brutal outcomes for the characters, but many are, simply because he's breaking so many cliched fairytale endings. Any author has to be hard on his characters around the middle of the story, to build up dramatic tension and reader sympathy--and the middle of the story is about where we are now.

It sounds to me like GRRM set out not to tell a story, but to skewer fantasy. He would have been better off writing an obviously snide parody so that those who don't want to read a book of skewers wouldn't have bothered.

[Twilight]

It sounds to me like GRRM set out not to tell a story, but to skewer fantasy. He would have been better off writing an obviously snide parody so that those who don't want to read a book of skewers wouldn't have bothered.

Y'know, I think Kristopher's just summed up my feelings on the author and this setting.

[Inu]

It sounds to me like GRRM set out not to tell a story, but to skewer fantasy. He would have been better off writing an obviously snide parody so that those who don't want to read a book of skewers wouldn't have bothered.
He set out to tell a story. HE also wanted to tell a different story, and one of the methods he uses to create drama and involvement is to deny normal expectations. So if he is skewering fantasy, it's not ALL he's doing. So no, he wouldn't be better off doing a straight-up parody. There's a lot more to his books.

[Twilight]

He set out to tell a story. HE also wanted to tell a different story, and one of the methods he uses to create drama and involvement is to deny normal expectations. So if he is skewering fantasy, it's not ALL he's doing. So no, he wouldn't be better off doing a straight-up parody. There's a lot more to his books.

I personally would find that highly debatable. However as I couldn't debate that and adhere to forum rules (what can I say, the books -really- annoyed me) I'll leave it alone.

[Cargus10]

I have to agree with Inu.

[Markdoc]

I have to agree with Inu.

You're not alone. I agree too (though that doesn't count for much) but the series is one of the (if not THE) most popular fantasy series being published right now. The last one - A Feast for Crows - went straight to the top of the New York Times bestseller list the week of its release and the next one, Dances with Dragons is in the top 5 bestselling fantasy novels at Amazon right now .... despite the fact that it hasn't even been released yet and probably won't be for months.

So, obviously, lots of people like the series. Not everyone does, but that's cool. Often I start books recommended in glowing terms by other people and when I'm finished (it takes a really, really dreadful tale to actually stop me partway through) I think "God, that was a waste of paper".

Different tastes and all. However, I'm buying each book as it comes out and I doubt that'll change :D

cheers, Mark

[Twilight]

Didn't Eragon make the Bestseller List at one point as well Markdoc?

[Nolgroth]

I think my complaint about the series is that it is not larger than life. If I wanted "realistic" I'd read the papers or watch the news. Plenty of people getting killed for no reason there.

The really frustrating part is that I like GRRM's writing style. He really drew me into the story and if it weren't for the fact that I felt really let down when Eddard Stark received his "justice," I would have loved the first book. That is a hallmark of a good author. I just don't like the grit in his books. I look to fantasy to escape reality, not have it strike down the characters I read about.

I am half expecting to read one day (probably here on the HERO boards) that the series ends with the Others descending upon the weakened and divided peoples of Westros and slaying them all in an orgy of nihilistic irony. That would be delicious in a sad sort of way.

[Twilight]

I think my complaint about the series is that it is not larger than life. If I wanted "realistic" I'd read the papers or watch the news. Plenty of people getting killed for no reason there.

The really frustrating part is that I like GRRM's writing style. He really drew me into the story and if it weren't for the fact that I felt really let down when Eddard Stark received his "justice," I would have loved the first book. That is a hallmark of a good author. I just don't like the grit in his books. I look to fantasy to escape reality, not have it strike down the characters I read about.

I am half expecting to read one day (probably here on the HERO boards) that the series ends with the Others descending upon the weakened and divided peoples of Westros and slaying them all in an orgy of nihilistic irony. That would be delicious in a sad sort of way.

One could almost say they deserve it, though I would be sad to see Bran Stark and Jon Snow die as a result. Of course as those are the only two likable characters left in the book more or less, but there I go with that rant again.

[AmadanNaBriona]

My personal thoery is that the Others will generally start kicking the Westros's asses, and will finally be stopped by Jon, Danerys, Bran and her dragons.

Remember, you heard it here first. :)

[Markdoc]

Didn't Eragon make the Bestseller List at one point as well Markdoc?

Yeah, it did, which kind of makes my point: not everyone likes the same books. I don't care for Eragon - but I like a Song of Ice and Fire. Other people probably feel the exact opposite. It doesn't bother me - nor does it make me enjoy reading what I like any less. Martin's gritty (you could say relentless) style turns some readers off: but he has a huge devoted following - probably in large part precisely because of that style.

cheers, Mark

[Maur]

And there are the few that like both :) My book collection runs a wide gamut of SciFi/Fantasy, Mystery, Technothrillers, etc... as well as a huge collection of non-fiction books on math, physics, biology, history, etc...

[Inu]

I think my complaint about the series is that it is not larger than life. If I wanted "realistic" I'd read the papers or watch the news. Plenty of people getting killed for no reason there.
I like a range of writing, myself. =) I like pure escapism, I like grittiness, I like anything, really. Well, I like good writing, good stories, good characters, good setting. I don't really care about tone, genre or style.

I usually say that one of the big reasons I read, or watch movies, is for the human experience. There usually has to be some element of it for me to enjoy something, unless the craziness factor is big enough to make up for it. The human experience encompasses fun, happiness, love, fear, tension, sadness, death. Vicarious experience of any of those gives me satisfaction (though I do like a mix). Unrealistically bad or good endings leave me cold. I hate seeing everything twisted around to give an ending that simply doesn't belong, regardless of how much I want that ending.

[Old Man]

I have to admit that ASoIaF is really grim and bleak, and at times that's hard to take. But I also really like the unpredictability of the story, and the believability of the characters.

[Kristopher]

He set out to tell a story. HE also wanted to tell a different story, and one of the methods he uses to create drama and involvement is to deny normal expectations. So if he is skewering fantasy, it's not ALL he's doing. So no, he wouldn't be better off doing a straight-up parody. There's a lot more to his books.

So the characters are dying and suffering because it's unexpected?

IMO, that's metafiction, in a bad way.

[Alibear]

Bad things happen to good people all the time, not much we can do sometimes but get on with it. I really like his gritty almost realistic style and love the way magic has crypt in and now is real and a big sub-plot. The priest with the fiery sword (name forgotten right now)is a particular favourite as is the the way the drowned men initiate priests.

I also really like how knights are basically hired swords for wealthy landowners. That strikes me as being very realistic but bursts the heroic ideal of chivalric knights somewhat. :D

[Twilight]

It doesn't seem that realistic to me. The idea of 'realism' kind of flew out the window when he had several characters talk about how the Lannisters were in such a weak position throughout the second book, then proceeded to have nobody take advantage of it despite knowing about those weaknesses. Oh and the way everybody opposing his precious Lannisters tends to get handed the idiot ball, or some associate of those opposing Lannisters will be handed the villain ball.

Anyhow, if I wanted realism in a medival type setting I'd read a history book.

[Cargus10]

The Red Priest is Thoros of Myr.

I like the books, others don't. Eh, that's why we're all different. You like what you like, I like what I like. It's all good. But...can't we all agree to dislike Uwe Boll?

[Inu]

So the characters are dying and suffering because it's unexpected?

IMO, that's metafiction, in a bad way.
They're dying because it fits the story. It's shocking because it denies expectations. There's a certain amount of meta in ANY writing. Even histories and biographies. Certain things happen because it's expected. In Martin, sometimes things happen because it's unexpected... but it's always supported by the story. No foul.

From your previous post, I take it you haven't read the books? Take it from me; they're complete stories that make sense internally and externally.

[Inu]

It doesn't seem that realistic to me. The idea of 'realism' kind of flew out the window when he had several characters talk about how the Lannisters were in such a weak position throughout the second book, then proceeded to have nobody take advantage of it despite knowing about those weaknesses. Oh and the way everybody opposing his precious Lannisters tends to get handed the idiot ball, or some associate of those opposing Lannisters will be handed the villain ball.

Anyhow, if I wanted realism in a medival type setting I'd read a history book.
The previous couple of decades were a period of stability. Baratheon moved against anyone who disrupted this stability; he wanted a united kingdom. The Lannisters were, IIRC, also feigning some level of the listlessness, preparing for a takeover bid. They'd been planning this for a long, long time. The 'idiot ball' is a subjective thing; I didn't feel anyone was done over.

[Twilight]

Not terribly subjective at all in this case. All his advisors tell Stannis that if he sails into Kings Landing he will take the place with ease. The Lannisters say that if Stannis sails into Kings Landing he will take the place with ease. Clearly the intelligent maneuver here is for Stannis to sail into King's Landing. So instead he rides off to deal with a matter that's comparatively unimportant.

Or how about that nice instant kill power that his mage/priestess/whatever she is chick has? Pity she never actually used that during the Seige of Kings Landing where such an ability might've been y'know, useful.

Of course I suppose some of this is partially explained by the Lannisters being handed every advantage in the story.

[Markdoc]

Not terribly subjective at all in this case. All his advisors tell Stannis that if he sails into Kings Landing he will take the place with ease. The Lannisters say that if Stannis sails into Kings Landing he will take the place with ease. Clearly the intelligent maneuver here is for Stannis to sail into King's Landing. So instead he rides off to deal with a matter that's comparatively unimportant.

Unimportant like .... ensuring his legitimacy to rule, without which he probably could not have held King's Landing, even if he took it? Unimportant like increasing his army by 400%?

That's even assuming he could take King's landing with only 5000 men, which is made clear was highly unlikely: Cersei had 5000 Goldcloaks alone. He needed his brother's 20,000 men (almost all of whom he got by going to Storm’s End, which was after all, the point).

Or how about that nice instant kill power that his mage/priestess/whatever she is chick has? Pity she never actually used that during the Seige of Kings Landing where such an ability might've been y'know, useful.

She uses it to kill specific individuals when there is great need, since it appears to be both time-consuming and personally draining. I assume by "siege of king's landing" you mean the Battle of the Blackwater - there is no siege of Kings Landing in the books. But not only is it hard to identify who she could have usefully used the power on (Joffrey? Tyrion? Cersei? All very satisfying, but hardly like to change the outcome of the battle) but it's also not clear she even had the time required.

Of course I suppose some of this is partially explained by the Lannisters being handed every advantage in the story.

Hardly: their plan to put Joffrey on the throne is in ruins, their enemies gathering, their allies unreliable to say the least and half the major Lannisters are already dead or traitors. All in all, it looks like the Lannisters succeeded initially by being better organised and more ruthless than their foes - but they over-reached, and now their power is tottering. They've had some lucky breaks, but they've had some bad ones too - like everyone else in the series.

And that's what makes it interesting. You can't assume the bad guys will lose simply because they are the bad guys and you can't assume the good guys will triumph largely unscathed because they are the good guys. And there's a fair number of characters who are nether good guys nor bad guys.

cheers, Mark

[Twilight]

Feh. Interesting is not the word I'd use. Now I could sit here and argue that increasing his army by 400% actually did him very little good because achieving it actually caused him to throw away the only advantage he had in the attack, as evidenced by him actually losing, whereas a quick assault on King's Landing could've allowed him to destroy the navy there and allowed him to remove Joffry from the throne. Even if he couldn't hold Kings Landing taking a few important prisoners (Cersei Lannister for example) and actually killing the king would improve his chances at becoming king.

However, arguing about this series annoys me more then actually reading it in the first place so I'm just going to stop doing both and hope this overrated series fades into the obscurity it deserves.

[Alibear]

Obscurity it deserves? It's one of the best fantasy epics I've read in many a year. Obviously it's not to your taste but it is to many tastes, including mine.

Any why do knights attacking their masters enemies in battle or raising the countryside not seem realistic? Is that not what they did in our own history? I can see that as being realistic rather than knights saving maidens and righting wrongs.

[Nolgroth]

Not to break up the "SoFaI sucks! No it doesn't! Yes it does! No it doesn't!" argument, but I think that a Fantasy Political Intrigue HERO article would be useful. I honestly try to think about how to run one and the whole thought process ends up with a huge Null.

Armies, not swords, are the primary weapons of politics. I noticed in Game of Thrones that individuals could be skillful with a blade, tough as nails or whatever, and still basically be meat if they were confronted by even slightly superior numbers. In that regard it is very realistic. Hence, you don't get heroes making great strides as individuals. The "heroes" are those that can lead armies.

From a gaming standpoint, it seems to me that there is little place for the "band of adventurers" in such a setting. It almost seems like a wargame with some elements of roleplaying built in. I would certainly suggest that anybody trying such a campaign, brush up on the Mass Combat rules.

[Maur]

Well, the hard part of things like court politics and creating intrigue is the fact that subtle things are what drive it. Who knows what about whom. Who owes whom favors and at what strength vs their own convictions. What subtle slights has one person given another (even as subtle as where one sat at an event). Hell, people can hold grudges for quite some time and just be waiting to repay a slight in spades when a good opportunity arises (Catelyn Stark and her eldest son for his marrying a lesser girl when he had made a promise of marrying another families daughter as the price of their support).

[Markdoc]

Not to break up the "SoFaI sucks! No it doesn't! Yes it does! No it doesn't!" argument, but I think that a Fantasy Political Intrigue HERO article would be useful. I honestly try to think about how to run one and the whole thought process ends up with a huge Null.

I like games with a fair deal of intrigue. Both my current FH game and the last one (which was set in a fantasy medieval japan) had a significant amount of it. It's not hard to do.

Armies, not swords, are the primary weapons of politics. I noticed in Game of Thrones that individuals could be skillful with a blade, tough as nails or whatever, and still basically be meat if they were confronted by even slightly superior numbers. In that regard it is very realistic. Hence, you don't get heroes making great strides as individuals. The "heroes" are those that can lead armies.

Any major character can lead an army - a Hero leads it from the front :D In addition, heroes can undertake tasks that a normal person cannot. In a Game of Thrones, you could cite Arya Stark, or Melisandre, who haven't led any armies, but have already had an effect on the outcome of the war, or Daenerys Targaryen, who has led armies but also done other "Heroic" things: like hatching three dragons :D

From a gaming standpoint, it seems to me that there is little place for the "band of adventurers" in such a setting. It almost seems like a wargame with some elements of roleplaying built in. I would certainly suggest that anybody trying such a campaign, brush up on the Mass Combat rules.

You could certainly play a band of adventurers in such a setting. But the object of such a game is unlikely to be "kill the monsters and take their stuff". Just off the top of my head, you could run a fine game where the players are a squad of the Night's Watch, tasked with defending a section of the wall, launching raids against the wildings, creeping into the wild to spy out their plans, and trying to find a secret they could use against the Others. Or, you could play a band of loyal knights and their lord, following any one of the various great lords, attempting to defend their own territory, attack the lord's enemies, occasionally fighting on their own, occasionally fighting as part of a large army, with the goal of expanding the power of the lord and thus their own power. You could play a band of free swords, selling their services to one lord or another, chasing riches and maybe a chance to become nobles in their own right - or a band like the Brotherhood Without Banners, fighting a guerilla war against the conquering enemy forces, or a band of spies, fighters and assassins working for Varys, the master of whisperers or ....

There's lots of possibilities. As for the one you mentioned, playing nobles and lords involved in large scale combat and intrigue, that's not too hard. I played in an excellent game set during the First Crusade, where we did exactly that: a mixture of roleplaying and wargaming, in effect. Not only did we have to contend with battles, treachery and politics but also mundane questions like "Where can I recruit new settlers for my recently conquered lands?" and "I need a stablemaster to care for our horses - we're losing too many to illness" and so on.

The last game I ran, the players were minor retainers for a samurai clan, who over the course of two+ years of weekly play undertook many missions for the lord, eventually rising to command his armies and form his council of trusted advisers. There were conventional adventures setting the players against small groups of foes, intrigue - for example, persuade a member of the imperial court to help their lord (without actually being allowed to talk to anyone of the court) - and battles involving hundreds of samurai where the players participated first as a single squad of soldiers and in the end as generals and officers.

All you need for a game like this is a plot, a good cast of NPCs, some idea of how the NPCs interact and what their goals are - and a setting in which it all takes place. A SoFaI would be ideal for this: you already have a big cast of NPCs, and you know what their motivations are. You could even do this if your players have read the books: by changing names and locations and so on. Since the players don't get the overview afforded by the books, they could be kept from seeing the whole picture for a long, long time, even as they hear rumours of far-off battles, treacheries and sackings.

For example: you tell your players you are going to setting your game in an alternate fantasy Europe. King's Landing becomes Constantinople. After the death of the Emperor, the various nobles maneuver to play one of their own on the throne, while in Anatolia, brave armies try to hold back the fierce Turkish hordes (who, it turns out are being driven westwards by a race of terrible djinni) and an exiled member of the old imperial family - thought dead by most people - hatches a dragon in far-off trackless Russia and raises an army of fierce Rus Barbarians, eager to take Constantinople, the fabled city of gold.

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Feh. Interesting is not the word I'd use. Now I could sit here and argue that increasing his army by 400% actually did him very little good because achieving it actually caused him to throw away the only advantage he had in the attack, as evidenced by him actually losing, whereas a quick assault on King's Landing could've allowed him to destroy the navy there and allowed him to remove Joffry from the throne. Even if he couldn't hold Kings Landing taking a few important prisoners (Cersei Lannister for example) and actually killing the king would improve his chances at becoming king.

You could argue that. But you can't argue that Stannis behaved irrationally: his choices were to attack King's Landing with the forces to hand, and hope that the advantage of surprise would let him overcome an army as larger or larger than his own, holding a fortified city, or go to Storms End, and then march on King's Landing, trading the advantage of surprise for a 5-1 advantage in numbers. He chose the latter. It didn't work, but it actually sounds like the safer of the two choices (and it may have been: he lost, but he's still alive).

However, arguing about this series annoys me more then actually reading it in the first place so I'm just going to stop doing both and hope this overrated series fades into the obscurity it deserves.

Fair enough. Given that it appears to be the most popular fantasy series being written today and that we have at least two more books to go, I doubt it'll fade any time soon :D

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

You could argue that. But you can't argue that Stannis behaved irrationally:

And besides, so what if he did? Real people act irrationally all the time. Most of the time, for some. Stannis' psych lims are pretty obvious, and he got quite a few points for them.

[Cargus10]

Stannis arguably disliked Renly more than the did the Lannisters - keep in mind he'd been nursing a grudge about not getting title to Storm's End for years and years. And it was a gamble anyway. His choices were:

1. Attack the capital at once, and hope to win quickly, then escape with hostages or endure a siege from his brother.

2. Take out Renly and absorb his army, then march in force to King's Landing.

The fact that #2 failed was more due to Tyrion's able defense plans than to anything else. I have no issues in the way Stannis acted - even assuming he was totally rational, it was a gamble that made some sense. Not all gambles are won, you know.