Creation philosophy [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

Sean Waters

Apr 23rd, '05, 02:33 AM

I was looking at the sample characters in the big black book, trying to work out some system for comparing the combat efficiency of various characters: my conclusion is that you just can’t do it, even when you are only comparing two characters, unless they are built in a very straightforward way. Nevermind; looking at the character builds got me thinking.

Go take a look at the sample super-characters, all built on standard superhero points of 350.. The sample ‘brick’ (Taurus) and ‘armour guy’ (Hardpoint) BOTH have 20 PD and 30 CON (the lowest PD of any of the four super-heroic characters, lower even that the martial artist!). I thought that was strange, BUT 20 is the recommended DEF for a character of that level, it’s just that, after years of character design, I never build characters like that.

In practice, if a character is meant to be taking 12d6 EBs then I start out thinking, well 42 points of STUN on average, we’ll probably be needing about 25 to 30 defence, so we’re taking (on average) 12-17 per hit. CON will almost always be 23 or, occasionally 28 (I usually play 300-350 point characters). I mean, 30 CON just isn’t as efficient as other numbers…and 23 CON should be enough to prevent stunning on anything but a really lucky roll.

The way the characters I the book are built, they’ll be taking 22 STUN per hit. Blimey. The ‘brick’ will be unconscious in 3 hits, and the armour guy in just two. They’ll be lucky to last a turn!

That’s just stupid…isn’t it?

Anyway, this got me thinking: what is the biggest problem in the game, even for experienced players? How long combat takes. There’s all kinds of ways to speed up combat I’ve seen (and tried) over the years, but the one that never occurred to me was designing characters that wouldn’t last so long in a fight!

Is it possible we have all become a bit too good at character design, and forgotten that the real reason we are doing this is to play an enjoyable game, not finally attain The Perfect Build.

It’s a strange thought, but maybe we should pay rather more attention to the character build guidelines and the sample characters, and create characters that are designed to be superheroes rather than characters that are designed to be points efficient: we tend to get a bit paranoid and assume that if we do not make a character that is as points efficient as possible, someone else will, and we’ll get shown up.

It might feel odd, but I suspect it could be fun!

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you, and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.

Trebuchet

Apr 23rd, '05, 03:41 AM

One of the changes in design philosophy implemented by DOJ with 5e is that most characters can only take two or three hits before they go down, as opposed to the three or four it took in 4th Edition. The idea was to both speed up combat and to encourage use of maneuvers.

In our campaign, it works like this:

My character goes down after any campaign-average hit of 12d6. (12 PD; 18 CON)

Our other MA goes down after two hits. (18 PD, 26 CON)

Our two demibricks typically take three hits to put down. (PD and CON average in the mid 20s)

Our EB takes 5 or 6 hits of physical attacks, 7 or 8 of energy. (26 PD/32 ED + 25% DR Energy, 23 CON)

Our brick takes 6 or 7 hits to take down. (33 PD, 33 CON)

Our mentalist will go down after one hit UNLESS his 95 point VPP is in physical defenses (such as Force Field), in which case he may never fall even with only 14 PD, 20 CON. (I should note he's never done this, but he could in theory.)

I think this is how it should be, but you'll find plenty of others who disagree. But it's easy enough to "fix" if you think it's broken.

Hugh Neilson

Apr 23rd, '05, 04:32 AM

While Treb's example sets an interesting comparison, it doesn't tell the whoe story, at least IMO. You would think Z'lf is not built for combat, reading it. After all, one average hit would take her down. I suspect, however, that it probaby takes less time for a campaign-average opponent to land 3 hits on the demibricks (or even 6 or 7 on the Brick) then to get the lucky roll needed to land a single hit on Z'lf. Not being hit is a pretty effective defense as well, and this makes comparing characters even more difficult.

Let's consider a 350 point character with an ocv of between 8 and 10. Z'lf's 14 base DCV makes landing a hit pretty tough, and her superior speed means she has the flexibility to (martial?) dodge many shots, meaning she's a very tough target. That opponent is toast.

Unless, of course, he switches to his Area Effect 1 hex multipower slot and does 8d6 (but generally connects) instead of 12d6 (that almost never hits). But then, Z;lf can dive for cover, so we may be back to a more fair fight. [I can guarantee that, against any semi-competent team of opponents, Z'lf's second dive for cover will probably see her hospitalized, as a teammate takes advantage of her reduced DCV before she can roll free).

David Blue

Apr 23rd, '05, 06:53 AM

Go take a look at the sample super-characters, all built on standard superhero points of 350.. The sample ‘brick’ (Taurus) and ‘armour guy’ (Hardpoint) BOTH have 20 PD and 30 CON (the lowest PD of any of the four super-heroic characters, lower even that the martial artist!). I thought that was strange, BUT 20 is the recommended DEF for a character of that level, it’s just that, after years of character design, I never build characters like that.

The way the characters I the book are built, they’ll be taking 22 STUN per hit. Blimey. The ‘brick’ will be unconscious in 3 hits, and the armour guy in just two. They’ll be lucky to last a turn!

That’s just stupid…isn’t it?

...

Anyway, this got me thinking: what is the biggest problem in the game, even for experienced players? How long combat takes. There’s all kinds of ways to speed up combat I’ve seen (and tried) over the years, but the one that never occurred to me was designing characters that wouldn’t last so long in a fight!

Is it possible we have all become a bit too good at character design, and forgotten that the real reason we are doing this is to play an enjoyable game, not finally attain The Perfect Build.

... we tend to get a bit paranoid and assume that if we do not make a character that is as points efficient as possible, someone else will, and we’ll get shown up.You are not paranoid, you are correct. Your character will soon be unconscious. Bring a book to read, while the cleverly built characters fight on for hours after you are out. I recommend the Iliad. Dream of mighty heroes ...

That isn't an accomplishment, good or bad. That's just how it is.

Last Hero represents the concentrated essence of what I like to build and play. Not just lately (5th Edition) - always. For me, in terms of how I think a hero should be, this is The Perfect Build.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30583

You can know everything about how he thinks, fights and gets about in seconds. First impressions are correct, there are no tricks.

It's easy for the Yancy Street gang to annoy this character, which is how it should be. I want to give the gamemaster complete freedom. It's easy to "touch" this character, psychologically and physically. There's no need to do anything artificial to get Last Hero's attention, so most comic "bits" including light-hearted ones are "on". He's a hero who belongs in a comic book, the kind I happily pay for and read over and over.

Ideally Last Hero would be involved in magnificent multi-page brawls, in the style of the early Hulk vs. the Thing, but this can never be. I have found characters built in my "clean" straightforward way rarely see Phase Eleven, if that. Often the martial artists and others are out after the first hit, which is apt to come soon.

The only thing that makes Last Hero workable is that Hero System loves bricks. Not as much as I do, but a lot.

But that's not enough. The game also has other, stronger preferences.

Nice guys finish, or rather are finished off, first in Hero.

Want a different result from this character design philosophy? Play a game that rewards and punishes different things.

When I see a better game than Hero System, I'll play it. I haven't seen it yet though. And I'm not holding my breath.

concord

Apr 23rd, '05, 07:24 AM

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you, and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.We call this one, Sledgehammers and Egg Shells... Sledgehammers for attacks and Egg Shells for defense... our typical experience shows that it leads to a lot of dancing around, then a quick flurry of action with one man left standing style of combat

Trebuchet

Apr 23rd, '05, 07:48 AM

While Treb's example sets an interesting comparison, it doesn't tell the whoe story, at least IMO. You would think Z'lf is not built for combat, reading it. After all, one average hit would take her down. I suspect, however, that it probaby takes less time for a campaign-average opponent to land 3 hits on the demibricks (or even 6 or 7 on the Brick) then to get the lucky roll needed to land a single hit on Z'lf. Not being hit is a pretty effective defense as well, and this makes comparing characters even more difficult.

Let's consider a 350 point character with an ocv of between 8 and 10. Z'lf's 14 base DCV makes landing a hit pretty tough, and her superior speed means she has the flexibility to (martial?) dodge many shots, meaning she's a very tough target. That opponent is toast.

Unless, of course, he switches to his Area Effect 1 hex multipower slot and does 8d6 (but generally connects) instead of 12d6 (that almost never hits). But then, Z;lf can dive for cover, so we may be back to a more fair fight. [I can guarantee that, against any semi-competent team of opponents, Z'lf's second dive for cover will probably see her hospitalized, as a teammate takes advantage of her reduced DCV before she can roll free).I wasn't trying to imply Zl'f wasn't effective in combat, because she certainly is. My point was that if and when she gets hit she'll probably go nighty-night. While she's adept at DfC and with her superior speed can often recover from DfC's negative effects before an opponent can capitalize on it, good enemy teamwork or a bit of luck can still put her down. I believe I've mentioned she gets Stunned or KO'd in about 1/3 of our battles, but with her high REC and SPD she almost always manages to reenter the fray. And of course, MidGuard is no slouch with team tactics either, and protecting a downed comrade takes priority over almost anything else. Many's the Phase Zl'f has stood over a Stunned or unconscious comrade or provided a high speed evac, and vice versa. :)

Ki-rin

Apr 23rd, '05, 07:52 AM

May we see the character stats on this MA/Speedster?

Lord Liaden

Apr 23rd, '05, 10:11 AM

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you, and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.

Actually, I don't think this build is far off from depictions of cinematic martial arts combat. Two opponents of a similar level of ability rarely actually hit each other; their combats are punctuated by blocks and dodges of their opponent's blows. The first one to land a solid hit usually will stun his opponent and quickly put him down, but that typically takes a while to happen. If you allow the optional Roll With A Punch Maneuver, the fighter getting hit still has a chance to reduce the damage. Also, don't forget that in an Heroic-level game using Hit Locations, a successful attack may still strike a location that cuts the Stun damage in half.

OTOH, in fights within this genre between a skilled fighter and grunts, the grunts are usually at least stunned and often taken out the first time the fighter connects with one. The level of damage thrown by the example NH character would certainly allow for that.

TheEmerged

Apr 23rd, '05, 12:29 PM

Eggshells and Sledgehammers -- have to remember that one. I've always called it d2 myself: "Whoever blows their first roll..."

Now, having played the opposite extreme (where battles regularly creep into the 2nd turn), I'm a fan of the middle ground. I purposely guide the players toward the "4-5 hits" territory when building their characters and build the opposition accordingly. The lowest DEF among the players is 20, and that's for a character with a permanent Darkness field... Average is around 30, although everybody agrees they should add 5-10 DEF in the near future.

austenandrews

Apr 23rd, '05, 12:46 PM

Maybe it's just the people I've played with, but in my experience players hate to miss and hate to get taken out quickly. Both of these conditions seem to argue strongly against 5E's "2-shot takedowns." Then again I can't remember the last time I ran a character from a rulebook - I'm not sure I ever have, in 20+ years - so I'm not really worried about it.

pinecone

Apr 23rd, '05, 01:01 PM

My basic "philosophy" is you outa take from 10 to 20 from a hit (the harder to hit the more you should take) and deF+con should equal or exceed the average attack...this lets haymakers and pushes get stun results and that seems to "feel" right....I don't think there is a magic number for fun though...every group has it's own "style" I've played with groups where it was a basic rule that Every hero had a NND of some sort...I've played in groups where Nobody even considered having a NND...the ballence in those two groups is going to be very differant. The NND group liked High Cons and low Def. The no NND crowd liked High Def and medium Con......ballence flows from play and back to play.....it all a style issue I guess.....:)

Hugh Neilson

Apr 23rd, '05, 01:28 PM

I wasn't trying to imply Zl'f wasn't effective in combat, because she certainly is. My point was that if and when she gets hit she'll probably go nighty-night.

That wasn't my point in any case. The real point is that it is difficult to measure a character's combat capability because there is a huge number of variables. I'm sure I could post a fully legal 350 point character who could clean Z'lf's clock. I'm equally sure you could then post a 350 point character against whom my Z'lf Killer would have no hope. And onwards, ad infinitum. Coimbat capability depends on the nature of the opposition at least as much on the stats of the specific character.

Trebuchet

Apr 23rd, '05, 03:18 PM

That wasn't my point in any case. The real point is that it is difficult to measure a character's combat capability because there is a huge number of variables. I'm sure I could post a fully legal 350 point character who could clean Z'lf's clock. I'm equally sure you could then post a 350 point character against whom my Z'lf Killer would have no hope. And onwards, ad infinitum. Coimbat capability depends on the nature of the opposition at least as much on the stats of the specific character.Of course. That was my point. I dispute the entire premise of this thread. That's also the problem I have with not only the "How many hits can Hero X take before he takes a dive?" and with "combat ratings" in their myriad guises. Not only is it virtually impossible to rate characters except against a specific other character under controlled circumstances (generally "arena battles"), but since 90% of Champions battles are team vs team fights the possible variables become nearly infinite. Any single character's strengths and weaknesses may well be covered by a teammate, rendering direct comparison pointless. If Character X takes a dive in Phase 3 but Character Y covers her until she Recovers, then both take down Character Z together, then Character X's weakness wasn't as important as it would have been if Character X was facing Character Z alone.

Trebuchet

Apr 23rd, '05, 03:23 PM

May we see the character stats on this MA/Speedster?Certainly. I don't consider her a speedster, but a very fast MA. She'd get hurt if I tried to run her as a speedster.

ZL'F

Player: Steve "Trebuchet" Willson

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>STR</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td align="right">43  </td><td>DEX</td><td>39</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18  </td><td>CON</td><td>16</td></tr><tr><td align="right">12  </td><td>BODY</td><td>4</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>INT</td><td>3</td></tr><tr><td align="right">14  </td><td>EGO</td><td>8</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>PRE</td><td>3</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20  </td><td>COM</td><td>5</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">12  </td><td>PD</td><td>3</td></tr><tr><td align="right">12  </td><td>ED</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td align="right">9  </td><td>SPD</td><td>7</td></tr><tr><td align="right">12  </td><td>REC</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">36  </td><td>END</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">29  </td><td>STUN</td><td>0</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">30"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">8"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">12"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 105

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">22  </td><td>Enhanced Reflexes: Multipower, 45-point reserve, all slots Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>1) Thrown Objects: Energy Blast 6d6 (vs. PD), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2); OIF (Objects of Opportunity) (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>2) Superspeed Strikes: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>3) Precision Strike: EB 5d6 (vs. PD), NND (Rigid Armor or PD Force Field; +1/2) (37 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>4) Blink of an Eye: Teleportation 11", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift; Restrainable (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2u  </td><td>5) Catching Bullets: Missile Reflection (Bullets & Shrapnel), Reflect At Any Target; Restrainable (-1/2), Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>6) Superhuman Legs: Leaping +9" (12" forward, 6" upward) (Accurate), (0 END; +1/2); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>7) Superhuman Legs: Running +10" (30" total), (0 END; +1/2); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>8) Superhuman Musculature: Swimming +6" (8" total), Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), Rapid Noncombat Movement (+1/4), (0 END; +1/2), Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1); Restrainable (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">30  </td><td>Phenomenal Coordination: +20 DEX; No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">33  </td><td>Amazing Speed: +5 SPD; OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">23  </td><td>Superfast Muscles: Running +14" (30" total), (1/2 END; +1/4); OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2  </td><td>Vibrational Field: Damage Resistance (2 PD/2 ED) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">11  </td><td>Phenomenal Eyesight: +4 PER with Sight Group and Rapid (x10): +1 </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4  </td><td>Ultraviolet Vision: Ultraviolet Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points); Flashed as Sight (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1  </td><td>Ultrasonic Hearing: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group) (3 Active Points); High Frequencies Only (-1) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7  </td><td>Super-Efficient Metabolism: Life Support (Extended Breathing (1 END/Turn) 1 END per Turn; Longevity 800 Years; Reduced Sleep Only needs 2 hours/night; Safe in Extreme Cold) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Enhanced Metabolism: Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Hour (-2 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2  </td><td>Team Radio (Earbug): Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group); Team Discount (-1 3/4), IIF Fragile (Earbug; -1/2), Limited Frequencies (-1/2), Flashed as Hearing (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 149

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Martial Arts Maneuver</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">12  </td><td>+3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Sacrifice Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, 10d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR to Shove </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Legsweep/Wrist Throw: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 7d6 Strike, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR vs. Grabs </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Weapon Element: Empty Hand, Staffs, Sticks </td></tr></table>Martial Arts Cost: 53

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">11  </td><td>Acrobatics 22- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Breakfall 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Dexterity Tricks (DEX-based) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Rapid Attack (HTH)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Teamwork 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>WF: Fist-Loads, Staffs, Sticks, Unarmed Combat </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">  </td><td>  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>PS: Executive Assistant (INT-based) 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Bureaucratics 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Computer Programming 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>High Society 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">  </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Language: Russian (Native) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Language: English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Language: Norwegian (Idiomatic) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Language: Danish (Fluent conversation) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Language: Swedish (Fluent conversation) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">  </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Riding (Horses) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Animal Handler (Equines) 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Combat Driving: Skis 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>Combat Piloting 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>TF: Automobiles, Ice Skating, Miniature Submarines, Mjölnir, Small Aircraft </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>KS: Chess 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>PS: Gymnastics 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>AK: Russia 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">  </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>+2 Overall </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 77

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Perk</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Contact: Colonel Kershenko, Russian superagent (Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has useful Skills or resources, Contact limited by identity) 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Alternate Identity: Pavla Sergetov </td></tr></table>Perks Cost: 4

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Talent</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">12  </td><td>Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Supreme Balance (Narrow Surfaces) </td></tr></table>Talents Cost: 15

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Social Limitation: Secret ID: Pavla Sergetov Frequently (11-), Major </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Social Limitation: Small, looks like and often taken for a minor Frequently (11-), Minor </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>DNPC: Gräfeldr Family (Hrolf, Gyda, Inge, Eirik) 8- (Infrequently), Normal, Useful noncombat position or skills, Group DNPC (x4 DNPCs) [Notes: Only Inge knows Zl'f's true identity] </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Physical Limitation: Small and light: (4'10" tall, 100 lbs., +3" KB) (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Physical Limitation: Colorblind (Sees only UV color): Infrequently, Greatly Impairing </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">25  </td><td>Susceptibility: Desolidified Objects, 2d6 damage per Segment Uncommon </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Hunted: Radical Russian Nationalists: 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing Common, Total </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Overconfident Common, Strong </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Protect Innocents Common, Strong </td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 150
 
Base Points: 200
Experience Required: 53
Total Experience Available: 54
Experience Unspent: 1
Total Character Cost: 403
 
<table width="100%" valign="top"><tr valign="top"><td>Height: 1.48 m</td><td>Hair: Blonde</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td>Weight: 45.00 kg</td><td>Eyes: Gray</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Appearance: A tiny yet stunningly beautiful girl who physically appears to be about 14 years old, Elena is 147 cm tall and weighs 45 kg; most people would describe her as elfin. She has a lithe and obviously athletic figure with the broad shoulders and sleek musculature characteristic of world-class gymnasts. Elena has the full lips, triangular face and high cheekbones common to many ethnic Russians. She has gray eyes and a fair and flawless complexion with light freckles; she sunburns very easily. Although when she was competing she cut her thick blond hair very short, it is now a full meter long and hangs to mid-thigh. While adventuring she keeps her hair in a ponytail, in normal guise she generally wears her hair coiled up or in a French braid. Her costume is a strapless one-piece white spandex bodysuit cut high on the hips, with an off-the-shoulder woven white shirt belted over it. She wears no jewelry (except a small gold Russian Orthodox crucifix), mask, gloves or footwear.</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Personality: While she originally regarded superheroing as almost a lark, of late she has come to take her responsibilities more seriously and as a result has evolved into a much more effective heroine. She is still only 22, but has been a superheroine now for more than 5 years. Deeply religious, for Elena superheroing is a method both to help others and to challenge herself in a way she no longer can with gymnastics. A classic overachiever, Elena is never satisfied with being "just good enough" at anything. As a superheroine she tends to adopt a very somber demeanor, since it is often difficult to be taken seriously when you're smaller than most 12-year olds. On the other hand, people are often struck by how much poise Elena has for someone who seems so young. When not saving the world, Elena is an energetic, warm and friendly girl who is liked by everyone who knows her. She has an innocent way about her that most people find very appealing, with a warm smile and a kind word for everyone. She is never too busy to help out. She rooms with a Norwegian family, the Gräfeldrs, who have become her surrogate family. The family's daughter, Inge, is Elena's age and has become her best friend and the only person outside MidGuard to know Elena's true identity and of her activities as a superheroine. Her favorite leisure activities are swimming and horseback riding; in 2002 she bought herself an Appaloosa stallion she named Comanche. (She even shovels out the stables when she is in town.)</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Quote:"What's wrong? I thought you said you were the best hand-to-hand fighter in your regiment? What was it, a regiment of schoolchildren?"</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Background: Born in Leningrad (Petrograd), Russia in March 1983, Elena Alekseyeva won 2 Bronze Medals at the 1996 Summer Olympic Games in gymnastics (Uneven Bars, Balance Beam) at age 13; well before her superhuman powers developed and were ultimately discovered more than 2 years later. Once discovered, Elena adamantly refused to go to work as a super-agent for her country's government, although they brought considerable pressure to bear. After the (apparent) death of her father in February of 2000 she was forced to flee Russia, and at this time resides in Olso, Norway, where she became a founding member of the world's premier superhero team, MidGuard. She is the Deputy (currently Acting) Team Leader of MidGuard. She now goes by the nom de guerre of Zl'f, which is the Russian word for 'pixie' or 'sprite'.</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Powers/Tactics: Probably the most agile human being who has ever lived; Elena can perform with ease acrobatic maneuvers most gymnasts would tell you were literally impossible. Combined with her jaw-dropping speed and extraordinary strength Elena is without question one of the top two or three martial artists in the world. Her eclectic fighting style is an acrobatic whirlwind of leaps, cartwheels, tumbles, somersaults, jumps, back flips, bounces, spinning kicks, high speed punches, precision strikes, backhand blows and leg sweeps performed in three dimensions and at a pace that leaves most fighters dizzy. She would defeat a half dozen high-caliber black belts in mere seconds. Her reflexes are so fast she can literally dodge bullets or, if she is so inclined, even redirect them. Although she is light on defenses, Zl'f is an aggressive combatant who typically takes the fight to her opponents, depending on her incredible reflexes to avoid injury. While she is easily stunned if hit, her high recovery generally gets her back into the fight quickly. Her phenomenal running and leaping generally make her the fastest combatant on the battlefield, and she is quick to come to a comrade's aid if needed.</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Campaign Use: Elena has a carefully constructed cover identity as Pavla Sergetov, a Russian émigré who is executive assistant to billionaire Dr. Eric Thorssen. In his own alternate identity as CyberKnight, Dr. Thorssen is the other founding member of MidGuard. She earns a comfortable $120000 salary as a superheroine with MidGuard. She also attends the University at Oslo, mostly by online courses, with the goal of eventually getting a degree in Computer Science.</td></tr></table>

Doc Democracy

Apr 23rd, '05, 04:05 PM

Since 4th edition, I've been using a damage system where the better the hit the more damage that gets done. I try and balance the system by seeing how many rolls of 10 or 11 that would knock down a standard straw man opponent (I aim for 4 hits).

Essentially the system works on the basis that 10 or 11 or less gets 3 STUN per die in the attack with an extra 1 STUN for every two below and 1 STUN less for every one above.

This way, martial artists tend to hit doing maximum damage while bricks tend to score glancing blows. I look at the damage done per turn and seek to assure that fights should take no more than two turns, one turn if it is a toe to toe full on brawl.

I get martial artists with low defences, low DC attacks and high CVs while bricks have high defence, high DC attacks and low CVs. Most characters have the same SPD though I'm happy to allow higher or lower SPDs if the other factors are tweaked to get a reasonable damage per turn. (I've had to work hard on autofire and area effect stuff and am still not sure I've got the wrinkles worked out).

But yes, the design was definitely aimed toward getting the character archetypes to look better but it had the side effect of controlling the length of combats.

Doc

Mike W

Apr 23rd, '05, 08:40 PM

Unfortunately, HERO books have always been full of characters that are poorly built. The European Enemies book for 4th edition had a stretching character(I think she was named Doppleganger) that was 450 points and could be easily taken out by a decent agent with his usual popgun. Pathetic.

For us, we like a good story followed by a good fight. So we generally build with the idea that the fight should last about 2 turns of combat - which is pretty close to what the 4th edition was built on. Really, it's not bad if the GM knows his stuff and moves the game along. We had a fight on Tuesday that had 8 power armored thugs, 4 Dreadnaught robots, Sabretooth, and 4 PC characters and it only took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. So we had half the session for roleplaying and half the session for buttkicking.

David Blue

Apr 23rd, '05, 10:26 PM

For us, we like a good story followed by a good fight. So we generally build with the idea that the fight should last about 2 turns of combat - which is pretty close to what the 4th edition was built on. Really, it's not bad if the GM knows his stuff and moves the game along. We had a fight on Tuesday that had 8 power armored thugs, 4 Dreadnaught robots, Sabretooth, and 4 PC characters and it only took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. So we had half the session for roleplaying and half the session for buttkicking.It sounds like that's working well for you. Could you talk more about what you do to achieve a balance of characters who last about two turns, and speed (and simplicity?) in combat.

Ki-rin

Apr 23rd, '05, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ki-rin
May we see the character stats on this MA/Speedster?

Certainly. I don't consider her a speedster, but a very fast MA. She'd get hurt if I tried to run her as a speedster.

ZL'F
Val Char Cost
15 STR 5
43 DEX 39
18 CON 16
12 BODY 4
13 INT 3
14 EGO 8
13 PRE 3
20 COM 5

12 PD 3
12 ED 2
9 SPD 7
12 REC 10
36 END 0
29 STUN 0

30" RUN 0
8" SWIM 0
12" LEAP 0

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!
...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

AND 6-7 DC on her =average= attack?!!!! ...and 53 CP worth of MA maneuvers (I'm now beyond surprise) ...and MR ...and a 5d6 NND

This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...
(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)

...and basically only gets hit 1/216. It's actually less given that she has 30" of move and a 9 SPD. Almost no one is ever going to close with her to have a chance to attack or counter attack in the first place. Thank God she doesn't have resistant defenses or Danger Sense.

Treb, you either are playing in one h&ll of a high powered campaign or you've pulled a BIG con on your GM.

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

David Blue

Apr 24th, '05, 12:38 AM

I think Trebuchet's Z'lf looks like an outstanding character. She is supposed to be swift and agile, and she is.

You can see that in a game of Sledgehammers and Egg Shells, Z'lf is built to be a winner.

concord said: "We call this one, Sledgehammers and Egg Shells... Sledgehammers for attacks and Egg Shells for defense... our typical experience shows that it leads to a lot of dancing around, then a quick flurry of action with one man left standing style of combat."

That's why Z'lf is so relevant to the thread, which started with the idea: maybe we should build low-defence characters (who will of course be unable to last long in combat, thus speeding up the fights). Z'lf is built with low defences.

I imagine her gamememaster knows all about how she works by now.

She could easily be a lot nastier with a killing attack. (This is any attack built to kill, with No Normal Defence (NND) Does Body and so on, not just a Killing Attack (HKA or RKA).)

One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.Killing Grond is a trivial task. You just build an appropriate beginning character with the typical Autofire etc. killing attack.

Hero System does favour brawn to some extent. But it favours intelligence in character design and Variable Power Pool (VPP) use infinitely more.

Lord Liaden

Apr 24th, '05, 12:51 AM

The debate on this thread highlights for me one of the greatest benefits and one of the greatest burdens of HERO System. It's possible to make these kinds of specific, quantifiable adjustments to character builds, and estimate what effect they will have on game play. That allows for considerable fine-tuning of designs without having to change the system itself. OTOH you often have to have experience and savvy with the system to know how to make those adjustments.

Thank the Powers That Be for these boards. You can pose just about any "how to" questions for any problem you may encounter, and expect a bunch of helpful replies from veteran players in short order. :thumbup:

Hugh Neilson

Apr 24th, '05, 04:55 AM

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!
...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

I buy Treb's classification. A speedster uses their velocity to do damage. Z'lf would take damage from her own move by's.

This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)

A Brick with 25 defenses. 7d6 averages 24.5 damage per hit. Maybe he takes 5 points half the time, for 25 STUN over a 9 hit turn. Then he recovers all but 5 in PS 12 with his 20 REC. This assumes he doesn't take Z'lf out with his 1 hex area attack focused via Objects of Opportunity, of course.

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

A legit homage of the Hulk would, IMOP, have more than 25 defenses. More like 30 or 35. The NND? I could classify the Hulk's tough hide as "rigid physical armor". Nerve strikes like Z'lf's generally have been ineffectual against the Hulk. All he needs is a large, sturdy object to swing or throw and they will be hosing Z'lf off the pavement shortly.

Doc Democracy

Apr 24th, '05, 05:16 AM

Speedsters use Move By/Through or one of a martial Passing attacks; Zlf does not. She closes and fights hand to hand. If she did a Move Through at full speed she'd only have 6 PD (Combat Luck does not apply against damage you deliberately inflicted on yourself); meaning on an average 30" Move Through she'd take

It's not a definition of speedster that I've ever used. My favourite comic speedster, Johnny Quick, didn't as far as I recall use his speed for extra damage.

However - I always say that the best definition of a character comes from the player rather than any game stats....

Doc

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 05:43 AM

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!
...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

AND 6-7 DC on her =average= attack?!!!! ...and 53 CP worth of MA maneuvers (I'm now beyond surprise) ...and MR ...and a 5d6 NND

This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...
(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)

...and basically only gets hit 1/216. It's actually less given that she has 30" of move and a 9 SPD. Almost no one is ever going to close with her to have a chance to attack or counter attack in the first place. Thank God she doesn't have resistant defenses or Danger Sense.

Treb, you either are playing in one h&ll of a high powered campaign or you've pulled a BIG con on your GM.

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.Speedsters use Move By/Through or one of a martial Passing attacks; Zlf does not. She closes and fights hand to hand. If she did a Move Through at full speed she'd only have 6 PD (Combat Luck, which constitutes fully 50% of her defenses, does not apply against damage you deliberately inflicted on yourself); meaning on an average 30" Move Through she'd do 13d6 damage to her target and take "only" 6.6d6 if she does Knockback. On average that would leak 16.75 Stun through her PD. 16 points of Stun is not something to ignore when you have only 18 CON and 29 Stun, especially since a roll which is only slightly (7%) above average will Stun her, hence instantly cancelling her primary defense: mobility. And in either case, if she fails to generate KB she'll take all 13d6 (45 Stun) and be at -38 Stun after subtracting her defenses. (In her 12 year career, she's done Move Throughs only twice, both times to save a teammate. Once she Stunned herself, once she avoided it by only 1 point.) She's not a speedster. She gets hit with some regularity with AoE or EX attacks, and has been hit twice by the same brick in combat. (Admittedly he had good rolls both times, but my point is she got hit by a brick in HtH combat, not just another MA or a speedster.) And of course any egoist or drainer can eat her for lunch because she has no exotic defenses: No Flash Def, no Power Def, no Mental Def. (And her defenses against Damage Shields are also only 6 PD/6 ED.)

As for regular MA combat, mere 8-10d6 attacks are not particularly powerful against most bricks, and other fast characters like martial artists are far more likely to avoid getting hit and far more likely to hit her. As I believe I'd observed earlier in this thread, an average 8.5d6 hit will Stun her and any 12d6 hit will KO her in one shot. That's not hard to do with a flying EB who spreads his attack or has AoE, especially against the level of villains MidGuard fights. We're the Avengers of our campaign world; we don't get the easy stuff.

Grond has 40 PD; he'd be functionally immune to her normal MA attacks. He might be affected by her 5d6 NND (and I would not object if my GM said his skin constitutes "rigid" armor and Grond is thus immune to her NND; I conceive this attack as being precisely like the martial maneuver Nerve Strike) in which case she could probably take him down in 6 Phases if he sticks around, assuming he doesn't just Leap away. And of course he has a 10 OCV in HtH, meaning he has a 7- (16.2%) chance of hitting her base DCV every Phase, assuming he doesn't use an Area Effect attack like dropping a bus on her. Any hit by Grond would not only KO Zl'f but would average 6 BODY through her full defenses and put her in the -22 Stun range.

Don't assume I'm somehow claiming she's a wimpy opponent; because I'm not. She is well balanced and highly effective within the constraints of both our team and our campaign as a whole. And that's been my point all along in this thread: All characters can only be evaluated within their own setting. "Balance" cannot be evaluated in a vaccuum or across campaigns. In some of the campaigns I've heard about in these boards I suspect Zl'f would become a greasy red smear in her first combat. She's built for our campaign; and she works well in our campaign. That's all I'm particularly concerned about. YMMV.

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 06:04 AM

She could easily be a lot nastier with a killing attack. I've played around with an "evil" version of Zl'f with two 2d6 HKA swords and Two-Weapon Fighting, and it's not pretty.

Maybe I could call her "Cuisinart." :D

Ki-rin

Apr 24th, '05, 08:54 AM

I think Trebuchet's Z'lf looks like an outstanding character. She is supposed to be swift and agile, and she is.

To the point where there may be game balance issues...

You can see that in a game of Sledgehammers and Egg Shells, Z'lf is built to be a winner.

In ANY version of Champions, she's a winner in a physical fight. (215/216)*9*(7d6 or 5d6 NND) + only (1/216) of being hit + 30" of movement at 43 Dex and 9 SPD sees to that. And that's without Pushing or a Haymaker (which this character should only do, given her low defenses, if she's sure she can "one shot" the target).

Despite Treb's protestations to the contrary, there's no brick outside of the Dr Destroyer class that I've ever seen who going to have even a 7- to hit her.
Between the base CV of 14 + the 2 overall levels (which she will not need for offense vs the vast majority of Bricks so her base DCV is really at least 16 in that situation) + Martial Block/Dodge/FDodge (now we're up to at least DCV 18) + the 43 Dex + even a tiny amount of tactics no one is ever going to have better than a 1/216 chance of hitting her without an AoE attack...

...and then we get into the mobility implied by 30" run + 9 SPD + Teleport + etc which means even the AoE doesn't have better than 1/216 to hit unless Treb makes a tactical error (doubtful given his experience) or Z'lf is caught by surprise or the GM +REALLY+ piles it on...

...and then we have Regeneration if she does get out-of-position and unlucky enough to get hit (but this is just icing).

Her defences don't matter because she practically always does damage and her opponent's practically never can. This is the HERO equivalent of the 1ed OGRE vs GEV problem with Z'lf being analogous to the GEV.

concord said: "We call this one, Sledgehammers and Egg Shells... Sledgehammers for attacks and Egg Shells for defense... our typical experience shows that it leads to a lot of dancing around, then a quick flurry of action with one man left standing style of combat."

That's why Z'lf is so relevant to the thread, which started with the idea: maybe we should build low-defence characters (who will of course be unable to last long in combat, thus speeding up the fights). Z'lf is built with low defences.

...and she is such a Combat Monster that she may NOT be relevant to this thread because she's a game balance problem in every long term campaign I've ever been in or run.

Give me a BALANCED (which means different Archetypes have a fair chance against it) character for a typical Champions campaign that relies on mobility, skill, appropriately low damage, and low defenses and then we'll a valid character for this discussion.

I imagine her gamememaster knows all about how she works by now.

Poor him.

She could easily be a lot nastier with a killing attack. (This is any attack built to kill, with No Normal Defence (NND) Does Body and so on, not just a Killing Attack (HKA or RKA).)

You are Missing The Point. Of course she could be nastier. Even without touching her defenses or giving her any other attack. Just pick from this list:Combat Sense, Danger Sense, Defense Maneuver, Double Jointed, Fast Draw, Find Weakness, Luck, Armor Piercing Ad, Penetrating Ad, etc. ...In fact, with AP and/or Penetrating I can make her "nastier" and -reduce- the DC of her attacks...

It doesn't matter if she can be nastier. She doesn't need to be nastier. She's already too nasty for the majority of long term Champions campaigns I've seen as it is.

Stopping her or giving her a fair challenge requires throwing problems at her that will destroy just about any more balanced character. Which means MidGuard should be renamed to "Z'lf and Middling Guardians of Z'lf."
Unless the rest of the players like being Treb's backup band, That's A Problem.

Killing Grond is a trivial task. You just build an appropriate beginning character with the typical Autofire etc. killing attack.

HERO System does favour brawn to some extent. But it favours intelligence in character design and Variable Power Pool (VPP) use infinitely more.

Again, you miss the point. Once we have a balance problem, it doesn't matter that we can create an even worse balance problem.

For this character, killing almost anyone is a trivial task. There's a fine line between "intelligent character design" and "campaign breaker", and this is awefully close, if not over, that line for the vast majority of Champions campaigns I've ever seen.

That's not to say I don't like the character. OF COURSE I like the character and would beg to be allowed to play it... ... if I didn't care about game balance.

Hugh Neilson

Apr 24th, '05, 09:11 AM

In ANY version of Champions, she's a winner in a physical fight. (215/216)*9*(7d6 or 5d6 NND) + only (1/216) of being hit + 30" of movement at 43 Dex and 9 SPD sees to that. And that's without Pushing or a Haymaker (which this character should only do, given her low defenses, if she's sure she can "one shot" the target).

She won't be doing 5d6 NND every phase. That's 4 END a shot. If she doesn't move, she's out of END at the end of the first turn, but you expect her to move quite a bit based on your comments below. Pushing with the NND is out of the question (even if I viewed pushing as something you can do whenever you wnat, not only under unusual circumstances) thanks to the END issue.

Between the base CV of 14 + the 2 overall levels (which she will not need for offense vs the vast majority of Bricks so her base DCV is really at least 16 in that situation) + Martial Block/Dodge/FDodge (now we're up to at least DCV 18) + the 43 Dex + even a tiny amount of tactics no one is ever going to have better than a 1/216 chance of hitting her without an AoE attack...

Block/Dodge = phase given up = not attacking 9 times per turn. You've got her down to 4 attacks if she uses these maneuvers (or gets out of the way) for every counterattack vs a 5 SPD brick. 4 7d6 hits per turn against 25 DEF inflicts basically nothing - recovery will take care of it. The Brick can hold out as long as it takes to roll a "3".

...and then we get into the mobility implied by 30" run + 9 SPD + Teleport + etc which means even the AoE doesn't have better than 1/216 to hit unless Treb makes a tactical error (doubtful given his experience) or Z'lf is caught by surprise or the GM +REALLY+ piles it on...

Again, losing phases to Dive for Cover, plus halving DCV for any followup (unlikely one on one)

...and then we have Regeneration if she does get out-of-position and unlucky enough to get hit (but this is just icing).

If she takes a solid hit, she can readily be killed long before that first Regeneration will kick in. A solid hit will almost certainly Stun her (meaning her levels are gone since they need to be alocated after being stunned, so she's either DCV 7, or 14 if she recovers from being stunned).

...and she is such a Combat Monster that she may NOT be relevant to this thread because she's a game balance problem in every long term campaign I've ever been in or run.

Yet there apears to be no problem in Treb's game - many of the players/GM's in which post regularly on these boards. I think the problem is that she's an unfamiliar style. Very high DCV and mobility, coupled with very low damage capacity and poor defenses. I've never seen a character take these to the same extremes. We're all used to characters who can at least take one solid hit and come back for more.

This "Grond vs Z'lf" sub-thread makes me think of Hulk vs Quicksilver or Hulk vs SpiderMan. Hulk can't get a hit in. QS or Spidey can't do any damage. Stalemate.

In a cage match - one on one - I like Zl'f's odds. One opponent will have a tough time connecting, and she can burn phases on dive for cover, dodge, etc. so she just needs to find something in her repoertoire to damage the opponent.

In a team situation - not liking those odds as much. Area attacker forces DFC, which is followed by a shot from a couple of teammates while she's at reduced DCV. Or just keep her running around until she runs out of END, and watch her KO herself.

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 10:19 AM

That's not to say I don't like the character. OF COURSE I like the character and would beg to be allowed to play it... ... if I didn't care about game balance.This comment says a lot if you really think you're the only person who cares about game balance. I have the XP to make Zl'f far more dangerous (and thus, correctly, unbalancing) in our campaign. I won't, because I want her where she is powerwise. Balanced for the campaign she actually plays in; not in some purely hypothetical "metacampaign." She might indeed be terribly unbalancing in your campaign. She doesn't play in your campaign; she plays in ours. If you doubt me, why not ask Mentor, Blackjack, or DangerousDan if she makes their characters feel like also-rans? If you're going to go off on a rant, wouldn't it make more sense to rant about something you've at least experienced or actually heard complaint about?

Without addressing your faulty and largely irrelevant tactical analysis of Zl'f's combat performance (You didn't seem to even notice her Regeneration takes an hour per BODY, meaning it's useful only after the fight is long over.), I'll point out that her "imbalance" exists only in your head. She plays in our campaign and not anyone else's. Not in CU, not in yours, not anywhere but the MidGuard campaign. Our GMs and my fellow players have no trouble dealing with her or her capabilities. She's a valued and essentially coequal member of our team. (Just as an example, in a fight she basically can't injure our brick Silhouette and our mentalist Prodigy could convince Zl'f she's the Tsarina of Russia in less time than it takes to type it.) She gets flattened by an attack which on average won't leak a single point of Stun through our brick's defenses. One or two EX or AoE attacks, even of reduced damage per hit due to damage caps (which we don't have) will put her out of any fight. An 8d6 AoE has a fair chance of Stunning her with a decent roll; an average 8d6 would be just 2 points below her CON.

Apparently in your campaign combatants just stand across from each other like Rock'em Sock'em Robots™ and pound on each other until one falls down. Sorry, but we don't play Dragonball Z™; we're playing Champions. And heroes get hit, and hurt, in our game. Even the fast, agile ones. YMMV, of course. :straight:

Ki-rin

Apr 24th, '05, 11:31 AM

She won't be doing 5d6 NND every phase. That's 4 END a shot. If she doesn't move, she's out of END at the end of the first turn, but you expect her to move quite a bit based on your comments below. Pushing with the NND is out of the question (even if I viewed pushing as something you can do whenever you wnat, not only under unusual circumstances) thanks to the END issue.

Unless I missed something, her movement is 0 END, so she's moving as much as she wants to no matter what else she does.

Assuming the standard 1 END / 10 AP rule, 36 END is enough (in some cases barely) for her to throw 9 of any of her attacks per Turn.

Block/Dodge = phase given up = not attacking 9 times per turn. You've got her down to 4 attacks if she uses these maneuvers (or gets out of the way) for every counterattack vs a 5 SPD brick. 4 7d6 hits per turn against 25 DEF inflicts basically nothing - recovery will take care of it. The Brick can hold out as long as it takes to roll a "3".

1= This character only has to Block, Dodge, DFC, FDodge, etc under extraordinary circumstances. Her base DCV is _16_ even if she does nothing but put her overall levels on DCV. Given an opponent with a DCV of 8 or less, her base OCV of 14 means she's hitting (215/216) without putting any levels into OCV. So she's basically (215/216) to hit and only (1/216) to be hit f2f.

TBF, the 43 Dex is probably so high as to be wasteful, and Z'lf would be more effective if she had 37 Dex and 4 overall levels.

2= Even some AoE are susceptable to MD/MR (that last is really adding insult to injury)

Again, losing phases to Dive for Cover, plus halving DCV for any followup (unlikely one on one)

Bah humbug. Z'lf only has to DCF if she's surprised by a AoE attack. otherwise, she teleports out. And that's assuming anyone can figure out what hex she's in to target it for an AoE in the first place. She'll be using Block, Flying Dodge (This Maneuver is UGLY with her using it), and Dodge the vast majority of the time.

IF (and it's a big "if" one on one) Z'lf has to DFC, she has 15" worth of combat movement and 30" of noncombat movement as part of the maneuver to get her out of range of the next attack. In addition, her 43 Dex and 9 SPD means she is VERY likely getting to roll her Acrobatic Breakfall, making it 215/216 of the time, so she's no longer Prone BEFORE the attackers get another shot at her. In short, she's almost never going to be a 1/2 DCV unless something goes very wrong or there's a bunch of highly skilled attackers working together to tag her.

If she takes a solid hit, she can readily be killed long before that first Regeneration will kick in. A solid hit will almost certainly Stun her (meaning her levels are gone since they need to be alocated after being stunned, so she's either DCV 7, or 14 if she recovers from being stunned).

True. Never argued that her Regen was anything more than icing. As I said, my main issue is the extreme ratio between how easy it is for her to damage others vs. how hard it is for others to damage her.

Yet there apears to be no problem in Treb's game - many of the players/GM's in which post regularly on these boards. I think the problem is that she's an unfamiliar style. Very high DCV and mobility, coupled with very low damage capacity and poor defenses. I've never seen a character take these to the same extremes. We're all used to characters who can at least take one solid hit and come back for more.

We aren't there and we have no idea how hard the GM is working to deal with this character. OTOH, (and this is scary) it's possible that ALL of that characters in the MidGuard campaign are just as powerful in each their own way. If so, the GM must be really humping to give them challenges (or the players like cake walks).

This "Grond vs Z'lf" sub-thread makes me think of Hulk vs Quicksilver or Hulk vs SpiderMan. Hulk can't get a hit in. QS or Spidey can't do any damage. Stalemate.

Except she CAN do consistent damage unless the GM special designs / modifies an opponent. Z'lf will mop the floor with every Brick write-up I've ever seen. Being both the best MA AND the best Speedster I've ever seen, neither of those has any chance against her.

EB's is a stalemate... ...until Z'lf gets the initiative by MR or closes and then they are dead. With her MR and Dex + SPD + Teleport + all her other movement options Z'lf WILL get the initiative and/or close.

Egoists can nail her as long as they have LOS but Z'lf can't close... They DO have the best chance of taking her out since LOS is usually farther than EB range.

In a cage match - one on one - I like Zl'f's odds. One opponent will have a tough time connecting, and she can burn phases on dive for cover, dodge, etc. so she just needs to find something in her repoertoire to damage the opponent.

In a team situation - not liking those odds as much. Area attacker forces DFC, which is followed by a shot from a couple of teammates while she's at reduced DCV. Or just keep her running around until she runs out of END, and watch her KO herself.

Again, her movement is 0 END. Her 12 REC is plenty unless she's all-out attacking. Her 9 SPD and 43 Dex means she can hold actions and go whenever she wants better than any character you've ever seen.

The only ways to take her out are
A- "Trap her in an Area, then destroy the entire Area in one Phase"
B- Surprise with a big enough attack.
C- An Egoist who keeps LOS but does not allow her to close. That'll be almost impossible without additionally using A or B above.
D- The 1/2 Option. Fight her with herself.

As I said, I'd love to play her in an environment where I didn't care about game balance. She's Flash crossed with a MA.

Ki-rin

Apr 24th, '05, 11:46 AM

This comment says a lot if you really think you're the only person who cares about game balance.

W'oh, partner! Never said I was the only one. Just said that Z'lf would dominate every long term Champaigns campaign I've ever known.

I have the XP to make Zl'f far more dangerous (and thus, correctly, unbalancing) in our campaign. I won't, because I want her where she is powerwise. Balanced for the campaign she actually plays in; not in some purely hypothetical "metacampaign." ...
(rest of scolding snipped)

...and I've said as much. Please reread my posts. OTOH, just because she's balanced for the apparently outrageous combat level of MidGuard does not mean she's typical enough to be used as a prototypical example for this discussion.

Damage per Turn done vs survivability has always been my metric of combat balance, and by that standard Z'lf is BIG.

EDIT: How sure are you that she really is balanced combat wise to her other "Combat Heavy" team mates? MidGuard's Bricks must be HUGE. Their EB's living nuclear reactors. And their Egoists just flat out scary.

As I've said, she's a wonderful design in that she takes advantage of HERO's combat system in a way more players would never consider. That doesn't make her an appropriate model for this discussion or appropriate to be considered a "typical" character.

Force

Apr 24th, '05, 12:01 PM

Run her thru this combat rating system:

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

Let's see how she stacks up here.

Gary

Apr 24th, '05, 12:06 PM

I always thought my character, Lariat, was the perfect blend of offense, defense, and flexibility without many limitations and nothing very questionable about her writeup. :)

Lariat
Ann Bowen

60 Str 50
30 Dex 60
33 Con 46
10 Body 0
18 Int 8
14 Ego 8
15 Pre 5
22 Com 6
12 PD 0
12 ED 5
6 SPD 20
15 Rec -8
66 End 0
57 Stun 0

200 characteristics cost

5 Extra limbs (force tendrils)

15 EC force tendrils
15 12/12 force field 1/2 end
11 5" stretching 1/2 end no noncombat stretching (-1/4) limited body parts (-1/4)
15 24" leap 1/2 end (36" total)
10 missile deflection all adjacent hexes cost end (-1/2)
9 360 degree spatial awareness +3 to perception roll cost end (-1/2) range limited to stretching (-1/4) touch sense group

16 8/8 armor OIF costume

7 explosion on 60 str personal immunity on explosion X10 end cost (-4) (emergency power)

103 powers cost

Martial arts
4 Fast Strike 14d6
3 Martial Grab 70 str
3 Martial Throw 12d6 + v/5
6 2 levels with MA

3 Acrobatics
3 Breakfall

22 pts combat skills

10 Very Wealthy
3 PS CEO 13-
3 PS Fashion Design 13-
3 KS Business World 13-
3 KS Textiles 13-
3 Bureaucratics 12-

25 pts perks and noncombat skills

350 total points

Total OCV/DCV of 10 with 2 levels. 32/32 def, 20 resistent.

Ann Bowen is a mutant who is superstrong, agile, and fast. She has the mutant power to convert her internal str into energy tendrils that can be used for a wide variety of effects. These energy tendrils can be manipulated by her as if they were an extension of herself. She can use them to cover her body (FF), push against the ground to travel far distances (superleap), make attacks and use fine manipulation at up to 10 meters away (stretching), block attacks (missile deflection), and she can use them to "feel" around her in a 10 meter radius (spatial awareness).

In emergencies, she can crack these tendrils almost like a whip, causing a massive sonic boom. She rarely does this as it is extremely debilitating (40 end for the explosion, 6 end for str, and 1 end for stretching for a total of 47 end spent!) and the property damage that is certain to arise from its use. However if pressed to use the attack, she normally tries to find a way to haymaker it. (18d6 explosion under 4th edition rules, 16d6 explosion under 5th edition). She can crack her sonic boom up to 10 meters away from herself.

In combat, she usually uses her martial strike or grab. She can grab or strike from 10 meters away. She has also been known to use tough grabbed opponents as shields with her missile deflection.

Appearance:

She is a beautiful woman in her late 20's with shoulder length dark hair (the actress I used for her was Mitzi Kapture from the show Silk Stalkings). She usually wears a mask when she appears as Lariat to hide her secret ID.

Profession:

She is the owner and CEO of Bowen Industries, a huge conglomerate that specializes in fashion. A very lucrative part of her business is making protective clothing of a special patented nature that feels like regular clothing, but protects like kevlar.

Force

Apr 24th, '05, 12:44 PM

And here is a sample of my MA:

Black Lotus

Player: Jerry Ogburn

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val**</td><td>Char***</td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">35**</td><td>STR</td><td>25</td></tr><tr><td align="right">38**</td><td>DEX</td><td>84</td></tr><tr><td align="right">33**</td><td>CON</td><td>46</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15**</td><td>BODY</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18**</td><td>INT</td><td>8</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20**</td><td>EGO</td><td>20</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20**</td><td>PRE</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10**</td><td>COM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>*</td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">16**</td><td>PD</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">16**</td><td>ED</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">7**</td><td>SPD</td><td>22</td></tr><tr><td align="right">14**</td><td>REC</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">66**</td><td>END</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">50**</td><td>STUN</td><td>0</td></tr><td></td><td>*</td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">9"**</td><td>RUN</td><td>6</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"**</td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">7"**</td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 231

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost**</td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">18**</td><td>Armor (9 PD/9 ED) (27 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7**</td><td>Radio Perception/Transmission (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5**</td><td>Gliding 12" (12 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3**</td><td>Infrared Perception (5 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7**</td><td>Life Support , Self-Contained Breathing (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3**</td><td>Life Support , Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat (4 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">6**</td><td>+6 Mental Defense (10 points total)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5**</td><td>Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 5 Minutes (-1 3/4), Self Only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 54

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost**</td><td>Martial Arts Maneuver</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4**</td><td>Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, STR +5d6 Strike*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5**</td><td>Offensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +7d6 Strike*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +3d6 +v/5, Target Falls*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4**</td><td>Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4**</td><td>Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">12**</td><td>+3 HTH Damage Class(es)*</td></tr></table>Martial Arts Cost: 32

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost**</td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Acrobatics 17-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Stealth 17-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Interrogation 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Streetwise 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Security Systems 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Criminology 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Shadowing 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>AK: Japan (INT-based) 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>KS: Eastern/Martial Philosophy (INT-based) 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>SS: Botany (INT-based) 13-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3**</td><td>Language: Japanese (fluent conversation; literate)*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20**</td><td>+4 with HTH Combat*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20**</td><td>+2 Overall*</td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 73

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost**</td><td>Perk</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5**</td><td>Money: Well Off*</td></tr></table>Perks Cost: 5

Total Character Cost: 395

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val**</td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15**</td><td>Social Limitation: Secret Identity Frequently (11-), Major*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10**</td><td>Psychological Limitation: Vigilante Common, Moderate*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10**</td><td>Psychological Limitation: Overconfident Common, Moderate*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15**</td><td>Psychological Limitation: Protects Innocents (Common; Strong)*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20**</td><td>Psychological Limitation: Code Versus Killing Common, Total*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10**</td><td>Enraged: Innocent Hurt (Common), go 8-, recover 14-*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15**</td><td>Susceptibility: End Drain 3d6 damage, Instant, Uncommon*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10**</td><td>Vulnerability: 2x Effect End Drain Uncommon*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10**</td><td>Hunted: Law Enforcement 11- (Frequently), As Powerful, Watching, Extensive Non-Combat Influence*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">25**</td><td>Hunted: Organization 11-, More Powerful, Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence*</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15**</td><td>Hunted: Villian 11- (Frequently), As Powerful, Harshly Punish*</td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 155

Base Points: 200
Experience Required: 40
Total Experience Available: 40
Experience Unspent: 0

Ki-rin

Apr 24th, '05, 12:56 PM

Run her thru this combat rating system:

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

Let's see how she stacks up here.

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver
12 +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes
5 Sacrifice Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, 10d6 Strike
4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike
4 Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR to Shove
3 Legsweep/Wrist Throw: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 7d6 Strike, Target Falls
3 Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls
4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
4 Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort
5 Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
4 Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR vs. Grabs
3 Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on
2 Weapon Element: Empty Hand, Staffs, Sticks
Martial Arts Cost: 53

I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...)

I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED?

Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165
According to that page.

How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.

Hugh Neilson

Apr 24th, '05, 01:23 PM

Assuming the standard 1 END / 10 AP rule, 36 END is enough (in some cases barely) for her to throw 9 of any of her attacks per Turn.

I generally worry about more than one turn, but she will have an END problem only if using exotic attacks consistently. She should be able to use that 8d6 Martial Srike (15 STR + 3 DC + 2d6 for maneuver) inexhaustibly. It averages 28 STUN per hit. Are the Bricks in your game really fragile enough that 28 average damage (before defenses) will topple them?

Lariat (posted by Gary above) will take nothing from an average hit. Sooner or later, she will hit back. I know Lariat wasn't designed to take Z'lf out - Gary posted her many months ago.

This character only has to Block, Dodge, DFC, FDodge, etc under extraordinary circumstances. Her base DCV is _16_ even if she does nothing but put her overall levels on DCV. Given an opponent with a DCV of 8 or less, her base OCV of 14 means she's hitting (215/216) without putting any levels into OCV. So she's basically (215/216) to hit and only (1/216) to be hit f2f.

On the assumption the opponent is 8 OCV. I don't see that very often. I see a lot of "base OCV" supers, but most have some way of boosting their OCV unless they hit areas or target using Ego.

Even some AoE are susceptable to MD/MR (that last is really adding insult to injury)

1 hex accurate, and Selective. Are these what you would use to target a DCV Freak? I'd use a normal explosion, AE 1 hex or full AE.

Bah humbug. Z'lf only has to DCF if she's surprised by a AoE attack. otherwise, she teleports out.

She has to have a phase available. Should she just stand and reserve until her opponent moves? If I had a 3 SPD to her 9, a waiting game would be ideal for me, not for her.

And that's assuming anyone can figure out what hex she's in to target it for an AoE in the first place. She'll be using Block, Flying Dodge (This Maneuver is UGLY with her using it), and Dodge the vast majority of the time.

You add something the game doesn't. I can target where you are. Not knowing what hex you're in is an issue only if I'm blind or you're invisible. And, again, she has to choose which phases to use these maneuvers in.

cIF (and it's a big "if" one on one) Z'lf has to DFC, she has 15" worth of combat movement and 30" of noncombat movement as part of the maneuver to get her out of range of the next attack.[/QUOTE]

Assuming that space exists (some fights are indoors) and assuming she wants to get that far away and have to come back to attack. If she wants to flee, my money's on her all the way.

In addition, her 43 Dex and 9 SPD means she is VERY likely getting to roll her Acrobatic Breakfall, making it 215/216 of the time, so she's no longer Prone BEFORE the attackers get another shot at her. In short, she's almost never going to be a 1/2 DCV unless something goes very wrong or there's a bunch of highly skilled attackers working together to tag her.

Two atackers will do. Once she dives for cover, she gets no action until her next phase. You can't avoid "prone" from DFC with skill rolls, so she's prone. The second attacker fires while she's prone.

Except she CAN do consistent damage unless the GM special designs / modifies an opponent. Z'lf will mop the floor with every Brick write-up I've ever seen. Being both the best MA AND the best Speedster I've ever seen, neither of those has any chance against her.

I suspect Z'lf's campaign precedes the mass DEF reduction wer saw with 5e, so Bricks she fights have better than 20 PD.

EB's is a stalemate... ...until Z'lf gets the initiative by MR or closes and then they are dead. With her MR and Dex + SPD + Teleport + all her other movement options Z'lf WILL get the initiative and/or close.

I don't believe Z'lf can fly, so that restricts her options. Many EP's have area effect attacks.

Egoists can nail her as long as they have LOS but Z'lf can't close... They DO have the best chance of taking her out since LOS is usually farther than EB range.

Our egoist is lightly defended, although she can fly and normally does to restrict opponents' options. She could easily take the Phase 12 8d6 Srike, and hit Z'lf with an ego blast. My quick scan sees no mental defense, so 6d6 Stuns her most of the time. Once stunned, she is easy prey (most likely for my character's DEX drain - tremble in fear, Z'lf!). Our mentalist would more likely Illusion her to swap friends with enemies, but that's another story.

A sight Flash that hits an area woud put paid to her pretty quick, or any kind of adjustment attack that, again, covers an area. My guess is that half of any typical Superteam has an attack that could connect with her, and that this attack would cause her serious problems, if not remove her outright from the fight. But the characters would have to have better tactics than "Never reserve; close in; trade punches".

Force

Apr 24th, '05, 01:24 PM

I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...)

I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED?

Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165
According to that page.

How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.

It means she is pretty damn powerful. My 6spd/80str/40def/80stun martial brick's total was about 135 with OR=41 DR=66 MR=27. Most 350-400 point characters should be in the 110ish to 130ish range. Anymore than a 10 point difference in a category (OR/DR/MR) means that your character is either outclassed or outclasses a character in that category.

However, from the write-up posted here she would not like my brick very much. Most MA's don't like fighting bricks. If she did not make a tactical mistake she might be able to take my brick out, but since my def outclasses her offense by so much, she might not be able to do sufficient damage before I connected with her.

What makes her so insanely good, imo, is the fact she has 43 dex/9spd with 30" of movement.

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 01:57 PM

I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...)

I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED?

Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165
According to that page.

How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.Are you even capable of reading a character sheet; or are you simply so determined to "prove" your non-existant point you can't even see the reality? Zl'f does a maximum of 10d6 including Damage Classes. Her 5d6 NND is equivalent to 10DC. It could be argued her 7d6 Variable (with up to +1/2 Advantages such as AP or AoE) is equal to 10.5 DC, but at 4X the END of her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike it's not much if any more effective. (I have in fact deliberately prevented her combined SPD + DC from equaling 20 because that's the guideline we use in our campaign for rough combat balance.)

Zl'f has 12 PD. 12 ED. Period. Two thirds of it is Resistant, and one half of it is Hardened (Combat Luck). She has TWO levels of Combat Luck, not six. Would it help if I sent you the HD file so you can read it on your preferred character format?

She does not operate in an environment without AoE or EX attacks. How many times must I run this past you? She Gets Hit and Hurt All The Time. Even agents can have EX attacks (as in "grenades." Perhaps you've heard of those?). Her Missile Deflection/Reflection works against bullets, which means she's great at stomping agents and mooks if they've got guns but not so hot if they're sporting blasters or other energy-type weapons. (And her CvK would prevent her from Deflecting bullets back even at mooks. It's another ability she has but almost never uses; I think she's used in 3 or 4 times in 12 years of play.)

Her "Teleport" is a mere conceptual part of her schtick to represent moving very fast, as should have been evident if you'd actually bothered to read it. (She's used in combat once in her entire career, and once out of combat to pass a sentry without being seen. Big fight winner there. :rolleyes: ) Not only is it less distance than she can move in a Half Move (11" TP vs 15" Running), but she has to pass through intervening spaces, meaning it can't get her past bars or walls. It also takes 4 times the END a half move would:

Blink of an Eye: Teleportation 11", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift; Restrainable (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)

Her Running costs her 1 or 2 END per Phase (While the extra +10" in her MP has 0 END Cost, the regular 6" does not and the 14" is half END.), not zero.

I can't address the "combat effectiveness" formula that you quoted. Not only do I think such things are a waste of time in the first place since they cannot compensate for player expertise, house rules, the combat environment, and any vulnerabilities the character or hypothetical opponent may have, but even then they are but crude estimates. Keneton ran Zl'f through his Combat Ratings spreadsheet himself a while back and IIRC her overall CR was around 93. Not bad, but that hardly makes an her unstoppable goddess of destruction as you seem to think. You even admit you might not have done it right and you still don't know what the number quoted means, yet you're perfectly willing to attack my character on that basis. (165 what?)

She's not a wimp by any means, but you're painting her as some kind of unstoppable combat machine. I'm telling you that's not the case, at least as I run her. Some other player may use her differently. Zl'f is fully as powerful as you'd expect a 403 point character to be in a 350 point campaign: A founding member of Earth's most powerful hero team. (Of course, all her teammates are within 10 or fewer points of 400 also.)

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 02:11 PM

I suspect Z'lf's campaign precedes the mass DEF reduction wer saw with 5e, so Bricks she fights have better than 20 PD.Yes, it does. Our campaign started in 1992 as 250 point Standard under 4e. The earliest version of this character (called Flash Dancer) I started the campaign with had 1 more PD & ED, a 23 CON, more Stun, and a 1d6 higher maximum attack. Her earlier version could also run a Mach 2. So her earlier "weaker" version was actually tougher in combat than she was when I redesigned her for 5e with 350 points and rebuilt her as a super-gymnast as she was originally intended.

Our campaign had already drifted towards the fewer hits/lower defenses philosophy Steve Long and the DOJ gang came up with for Champions Fifth Edition. In fact, Mentor and I joked that we knew Steve and Darren must be geniuses because they agreed with us! :D

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 02:18 PM

I always thought my character, Lariat, was the perfect blend of offense, defense, and flexibility without many limitations and nothing very questionable about her writeup. :)A cool character, Gary, and a brick who would be a very tough opponent indeed for Zl'f or other low-damage MAs. I think Zl'f would probably win, but I'd hate to fight the 400 point version of Lariat after she gets some XP. :D

(Kinda makes me wonder why 43 DEX is somehow out of line for an MA according to some, but nobody even blinked at a brick with a 30 DEX, martial arts, and two combat levels.) :think:

Gary

Apr 24th, '05, 02:20 PM

Just as a note, Zl'f's NND should be 4.5d6 not 5d6. Also I find Restrainable a little dubious for a character's hands/feet or arms/legs since that is a normal default. Then again if wings/tail can take that limitation, there doesn't seem to be any logical reason that arms/legs couldn't either.

Gary

Apr 24th, '05, 02:24 PM

A cool character, Gary, and a brick who would be a very tough opponent indeed for Zl'f or other low-damage MAs. I think Zl'f would probably win, but I'd hate to fight the 400 point version of Lariat after she gets some XP. :D

(Kinda makes me wonder why 43 DEX is somehow out of line for an MA according to some, but nobody even blinked at a brick with a 30 DEX, martial arts, and two combat levels.) :think:

I think Lariat would win. Zl'f simply doesn't do enough damage, and Lariat has the defense to her NND. Lariat can also muster up a 14 OCV if necessary, which means she'll at least occasionally hit. That's not even mentioning the Explosion... :D

Still, it would be an interesting fight. :)

The one she'd be terrified of is Black Lotus. But at least she can always run away anytime she wanted to. :D

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 02:30 PM

Just as a note, Zl'f's NND should be 4.5d6 not 5d6. Also I find Restrainable a little dubious for a character's hands/feet or arms/legs since that is a normal default. Then again if wings/tail can take that limitation, there doesn't seem to be any logical reason that arms/legs couldn't either.Given that she has to have full freedom of movement to use it, I think Restrainable is valid. OIW, she couldn't use it against an opponent who had her arms pinned.

I checked the NND, and 5d6 is correct. Because the defenses are so common, the NND has a lesser value per 5e.

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 02:34 PM

I think Lariat would win. Zl'f simply doesn't do enough damage, and Lariat has the defense to her NND. Lariat can also muster up a 14 OCV if necessary, which means she'll at least occasionally hit. That's not even mentioning the Explosion... :D

Still, it would be an interesting fight. :)

The one she'd be terrified of is Black Lotus. But at least she can always run away anytime she wanted to. :DI didn't even notice the Explosion. Ow! Of course, Lariat had better hope that works because if it doesn't she'll be out of END.

Now let's see if Ki-Rin thinks Lariat is also "unbalancingly powerful"? She must be; she could beat Zl'f!! :fear:

Gary

Apr 24th, '05, 02:40 PM

Given that she has to have full freedom of movement to use it, I think Restrainable is valid. OIW, she couldn't use it against an opponent who had her arms pinned.

I checked the NND, and 5d6 is correct. Because the defenses are so common, the NND has a lesser value per 5e.

I personally wouldn't rule that the defenses are very common, but if it works for your campaign, that's ok. Besides, we're only quibbling about 1/2d6 anyway. ;)

Gary

Apr 24th, '05, 02:51 PM

I didn't even notice the Explosion. Ow! Of course, Lariat had better hope that works because if it doesn't she'll be out of END.

Now let's see if Ki-Rin thinks Lariat is also "unbalancingly powerful"? She must be; she could beat Zl'f!! :fear:

All Lariat has to do is wait until after Zl'f has made an attack to unload the Explosion.

Honestly however, Lariat doesn't even need the Explosion to win. Zl'f's options are the Sacrifice Strike which would average 3.98 Stun through defenses and leave her at -2 DCV, Martial Strike which averages .55 Stun through defenses, or a 7d6 Armor Piercing Super Speed Strikes at 5 End a popl which will average 8.5 Stun through defenses. Obviously the last one is the best option, but she only has enough End for 7 attacks or less if she's using any Running, and her DCV is 16 if she uses her Overall Levels in defense. Lariat can hit on a 9- against that DCV, which means that it's extremely unlikely that she'll miss the 7 times needed before Zl'f whittles her down.

Actually, Lariat was considered too powerful in her original form. The GM asked me to drop her Dex/Spd to 23/5 for the campaign.

Victim

Apr 24th, '05, 02:55 PM

Zl'f seems dangerous, but not unbeatable. Also, she doesn't seem like a very forgiving character. Her attacks drop off quickly in effectiveness against higher Def foes, and many enemies will be able to circumvent her DCV. If you mess up one phase, then Zl'f will probably be knocked out for the rest of the fight.

Lariat is scary. 30 Dex, up to 32/32 defenses, and a 15d6 attack at 14 OCV.

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 03:01 PM

All Lariat has to do is wait until after Zl'f has made an attack to unload the Explosion.

Honestly however, Lariat doesn't even need the Explosion to win. Zl'f's options are the Sacrifice Strike which would average 3.98 Stun through defenses and leave her at -2 DCV, Martial Strike which averages .55 Stun through defenses, or a 7d6 Armor Piercing Super Speed Strikes at 5 End a popl which will average 8.5 Stun through defenses. Obviously the last one is the best option, but she only has enough End for 7 attacks or less if she's using any Running, and her DCV is 16 if she uses her Overall Levels in defense. Lariat can hit on a 9- against that DCV, which means that it's extremely unlikely that she'll miss the 7 times needed before Zl'f whittles her down.

Actually, Lariat was considered too powerful in her original form. The GM asked me to drop her Dex/Spd to 23/5 for the campaign.Well, it's not like Lariat would be the first brick or EB who clobbered Zl'f with an area effect attack of some sort; a fact I can't seem to get through to Ki-Rin. Tactics and Powers both matter in a fight. At least she probably wouldn't take any BODY from the explosion, although she might actually Recover before Lariat got to finish her. (She'd only go to -1 Stun after defenses.)

It's still a very cool concept even reduced a bit in power. :thumbup:

nexus

Apr 24th, '05, 03:17 PM

I haven't seen a character with a 7d6 attack cause such an uproar before.

Gary

Apr 24th, '05, 03:29 PM

I haven't seen a character with a 7d6 attack cause such an uproar before.

The biggest danger is the NND. Against virtually anyone without the defense and who needs to get in HTH range, Zl'f would eat them alive. The Variable Advantage HA could also take out many targets very quickly if Zl'f uses Armor Piercing or Autofire as the Advantage.

Of course this is balanced out by her extreme vulnerability to any sort of area effect or explosion attacks.

Mike W

Apr 24th, '05, 03:46 PM

It sounds like that's working well for you. Could you talk more about what you do to achieve a balance of characters who last about two turns, and speed (and simplicity?) in combat.

Okay, some of this goes back to the previous GM, but his philosophy is similar(since he was the guy who broke me in as a GM, though we tended to think alike in Champs philosophy anyway). We started by building all of the mainline heroes to serve as baselines. Capt. America, Superman, Thor, Iron Man, the FF, and so on. In building the characters, keep in mind the 4 magnatude rule I've talked about before. It should be a rare character who falls outside the middle 4 ranks. When building Defenses, figure that a hero with average defenses should take about 10-15 STUN per hit from an average attack. So if the average attack is 10D6(35 STUN), then average DEF should be around 23(12 STUN per hit). This mean's characters take about 4 hits to go down. Keep CVs under control and your hit percentage will increase(11- is a 62% roll, and a 7 OCV trying to hit 8 DCV is still 50-50). This means attacks hit a little more often. A 4 SPD character with a 50-50 chance will get 4 hits in two turns - about enough to take out one character. If you want guys to be tougher, buy 10 extra STUN, that lets you take one more hit without adding to your DEF. The extra DEF tends to start an arms race that throws power balance into chaos.

Once combat starts, make sure that the GM has chart handy that lists everyone's SPD, DEX, and EGO at a minimum, that makes it easy for the GM to move down the list and say "Proteus" is up or "Blue Bomber" is up, or whatever. I find it works best to sort the chart from highest to lowest DEX and use SPD as a tiebreaker, although I usually list mentalists by their EGO.

For players, we have our own particular character sheet designs that keep all of our attacks, combat levels and the like in one spot. Some even go so far as to list their CVs with their favorite maneuvers to save time on the math.

The combat map has an acetate sheet on it for us to write on, so that we can quickly lay out the battlefield. Heroes get minatures, villains get dice so it's easy to figure out where the targets are. I usually try to match die colors to the villain's costume(so Carnage gets a red die, Rhino a grey one etc).

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 03:58 PM

The biggest danger is the NND. Against virtually anyone without the defense and who needs to get in HTH range, Zl'f would eat them alive. The Variable Advantage HA could also take out many targets very quickly if Zl'f uses Armor Piercing or Autofire as the Advantage.

Of course this is balanced out by her extreme vulnerability to any sort of area effect or explosion attacks.Zl'f has never actually used the NND in combat, and most of the villains she'd be likely to need it against, such as bricks, are fairly likely to have the proper defense anyway. Autofire X3 takes too much END, although it's a great fight stopper against an opponent with low defenses like another MA (7d6 just won't bother most bricks). Her most common use of the VA is Penetrating. She doesn't generally fight the enemy's brick; that's more Silhouette's forte. Zl'f takes on the MA's and non-flying EB's; and assists other teammates as she can.

I started thumbing through CKC after this thread got going, and there are quite a few bricks in there with 12+ OCVs after levels that would have a fair chance of tagging Zl'f in combat (far from Ki-Rin's 1 out of 216; some of these guys would have nearly 50% odds). She'd have to Block a lot of those attacks to stay in the fight, and those become Phases she can't attack in.

OddHat

Apr 24th, '05, 04:29 PM

Zl'f has never actually used the NND in combat, and most of the villains she'd be likely to need it against, such as bricks, are fairly likely to have the proper defense anyway. Autofire X3 takes too much END, although it's a great fight stopper against an opponent with low defenses like another MA (7d6 just won't bother most bricks). Her most common use of the VA is Penetrating. She doesn't generally fight the enemy's brick; that's more Silhouette's forte. Zl'f takes on the MA's and non-flying EB's; and assists other teammates as she can.

I started thumbing through CKC after this thread got going, and there are quite a few bricks in there with 12+ OCVs after levels that would have a fair chance of tagging Zl'f in combat (far from Ki-Rin's 1 out of 216; some of these guys would have nearly 50% odds). She'd have to Block a lot of those attacks to stay in the fight, and those become Phases she can't attack in.

Zl'f has been run seccessfully in your campaign for years, and your GM is fine with her build. After that, Internet opinions don't much matter.

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 04:39 PM

Zl'f has been run seccessfully in your campaign for years, and your GM is fine with her build. After that, Internet opinions don't much matter.That pretty well sums it up. I know I shouldn't be so defensive, but it's kinda like someone badmouthed my kid. I'm proud of my character and the way I run her. I guess I'm trying (rather unsuccessfully) to explain why she's not unbalancing.

OddHat

Apr 24th, '05, 05:30 PM

That pretty well sums it up. I know I shouldn't be so defensive, but it's kinda like someone badmouthed my kid. I'm proud of my character and the way I run her. I guess I'm trying (rather unsuccessfully) to explain why she's not unbalancing.

Different campaigns have different standards and play styles. I wouldn't worry about a character like Zl'f in most of the higher point games I've run, so long as I trusted the player. However, as I'm not in your campaign, you don't need to worry too much about my opinion either. ;)

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 05:46 PM

Zl'f seems dangerous, but not unbeatable. Also, she doesn't seem like a very forgiving character. Her attacks drop off quickly in effectiveness against higher Def foes, and many enemies will be able to circumvent her DCV. If you mess up one phase, then Zl'f will probably be knocked out for the rest of the fight.Well, to be perfectly honest, even with her low defenses Zl'f has seldom been put out of fight completely even if hit. With her REC 12 she usually manages to get back into action if she doesn't get hit again while she's down unless it's very late in the fight, and her teammates are very good at covering downed comrades. (Only protecting innocents would take a higher priority; if that means letting the villain(s) escape then so be it.) Of course, she's returned the favor more than once. :)

Trebuchet

Apr 24th, '05, 05:49 PM

Different campaigns have different standards and play styles. I wouldn't worry about a character like Zl'f in most of the higher point games I've run, so long as I trusted the player. However, as I'm not in your campaign, you don't need to worry too much about my opinion either. ;)I don't worry about your opinion; but I do respect it.

Blackjack

Apr 24th, '05, 06:17 PM

43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!!
...and you say she's NOT a speedster?

No - because most speedsters rely on their movement velocity (Move Through, Passing Strike, etc.) to do damage to their opponents. Generally speaking, if you trap a speedster in an Entangle or a Force Wall were they don't have room to accelerate, they are trapped. A Martial Artist does the same damage in a 2x2 ring as they do in an open field...

AND 6-7 DC on her =average= attack?!!!! ...and 53 CP worth of MA maneuvers (I'm now beyond surprise) ...and MR ...and a 5d6 NND

That's _half_ the typical 12 DC average of most superhero campaigns. She can't do normal STUN damage to to most bricks on an average roll:
7 * 3.5 = 25 STUN - 20 PD (which is LOW for a brick if we're honest with each other...) and it'll take _days_ to take them down. The NND is even 2 DCs below the 12 DC average and doesn't work _at all_ on armored opponents. In my experience there simply aren't that many unarmored opponents in the superhero world...

This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn...
(Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?)

Uh, 215/216? No... Her best OCV is with an attack is 17 with a Sacrifice Strike that does 10d6 and leaves her with a 12 DCV - meaning she can do below average damage and give most opponents a 45-50% chance to return the favor. Can she hit, yes, with love taps. Can she avoid attacks, absolutely, and spend the whole fight dancing but you can't attack while dodging... What she does instead is a little bit of both - which means she is effective, no more, no less, in combat...

...and basically only gets hit 1/216. It's actually less given that she has 30" of move and a 9 SPD. Almost no one is ever going to close with her to have a chance to attack or counter attack in the first place. Thank God she doesn't have resistant defenses or Danger Sense.

It just doesn't work out that way - see above, do the math...

Treb, you either are playing in one h&ll of a high powered campaign or you've pulled a BIG con on your GM.

You're entitled to believe that our campaign is "one h&ll of a high powered campaign," but as one of the GMs in question, I know for a FACT that I'm not being conned...

This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, but the facts simply disagree. Most bricks (375-425 points) in the CKC can hold their own against Zl'f (a 400 point character). How do I know? Because I've run the games where it's happened.

Blackjack

Apr 24th, '05, 06:52 PM

1= This character only has to Block, Dodge, DFC, FDodge, etc under extraordinary circumstances. Her base DCV is _16_ even if she does nothing but put her overall levels on DCV. Given an opponent with a DCV of 8 or less, her base OCV of 14 means she's hitting (215/216) without putting any levels into OCV. So she's basically (215/216) to hit and only (1/216) to be hit f2f.

Except that, the average base CV in our game is 11-12, and your example assumes that Zl'f can use her levels but her opponent can't use any levels they may have. When you compare apples to _apples,_ things tend to even out...

TBF, the 43 Dex is probably so high as to be wasteful, and Z'lf would be more effective if she had 37 Dex and 4 overall levels.

Please understand that this is part of Zl'f's _concept._ She's supposed to be the most agile person on the _planet_ - the BEST at what she does. She suffers for that by being vulnerable to _any_ attack that can manage to hit her.

Bah humbug. Z'lf only has to DCF if she's surprised by a AoE attack. otherwise, she teleports out. And that's assuming anyone can figure out what hex she's in to target it for an AoE in the first place. She'll be using Block, Flying Dodge (This Maneuver is UGLY with her using it), and Dodge the vast majority of the time.

Again, you make these blanket statements that simply are not the case in our campaign. (BTW: the teleport is "blink of an eye" movement - it gives her no more or special mobility than her usual Running...) Anyone can see what hex she's in at any moment, so I don't even understand your statement there... and if Dodges "the vast majority of the time," then yes, she won't be hit any more often than Spider-Man, but she also won't be hitting - she still can't Dodge and Attack in the same phase no matter how fast she is...

True. Never argued that her Regen was anything more than icing. As I said, my main issue is the extreme ratio between how easy it is for her to damage others vs. how hard it is for others to damage her.

And, as someone who has actually _seen_ that ratio in action and fought against it, I don't think it's "extreme" at all. YMMV, and that's fine, but that's not the _experience_ of those of us who are actually _in_ the campaign.

We aren't there and we have no idea how hard the GM is working to deal with this character. OTOH, (and this is scary) it's possible that ALL of that characters in the MidGuard campaign are just as powerful in each their own way. If so, the GM must be really humping to give them challenges (or the players like cake walks.

Then please take MY word for it as the GM you are speaking of... I plan my threats to meet the challenge that is Midguard. Zl'f is an equally significant part of my planning as any other member of the team, and you can ask my other players if they feel like they've been on a "cake walk" after my games...

I will say this - part of the challenge I present to them involves _role-playing_ and _problem-solving,_ not just fisticuffs, and it is in the role-playing and problem-solving that Midguard _really_ shines. They can face danger in combat, but they are even better at playing the game when the dice _aren't_ rolling...

Except she CAN do consistent damage unless the GM special designs / modifies an opponent. Z'lf will mop the floor with every Brick write-up I've ever seen. Being both the best MA AND the best Speedster I've ever seen, neither of those has any chance against her.

You can keep saying it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make your assertion true. I've NEVER special designed/modified an opponent just for Zl'f - and it wouldn't work even if I did. If an opponent appears to be a "Zl'f-buster," then one of her teammates jumps in and they generally trade opponents. It happens all the time in our campaign.

Again, her movement is 0 END. Her 12 REC is plenty unless she's all-out attacking. Her 9 SPD and 43 Dex means she can hold actions and go whenever she wants better than any character you've ever seen.

Believe what you wish, Ki-Rin. Those of us who actually _play_ with this character know better...

WhammeWhamme

Apr 24th, '05, 08:17 PM

A cool character, Gary, and a brick who would be a very tough opponent indeed for Zl'f or other low-damage MAs. I think Zl'f would probably win, but I'd hate to fight the 400 point version of Lariat after she gets some XP. :D

(Kinda makes me wonder why 43 DEX is somehow out of line for an MA according to some, but nobody even blinked at a brick with a 30 DEX, martial arts, and two combat levels.) :think:

Well, Lariat isn't ever proposed as a "fair" character. Gary uses her as evidence that STR and DEX are too good.

Incidently, hitting campaign [in context of board, this means "most campaigns"] limits on everything while spending minimal amounts on skills and non-combat abilities is the first sign of munch.

Ki-rin

Apr 24th, '05, 09:31 PM

Now let's see if Ki-Rin thinks Lariat is also "unbalancingly powerful"? She must be; she could beat Zl'f!!

I haven't looked at any of the characters besides Z'lf posted here yet, but given what I've seen of Mike's posts, I'd EXPECT Lariat to be even more combat efficient than Z'lf. That doesn't mean I'd go any easier on him or Lariat either...

Lariat is scary. 30 Dex, up to 32/32 defenses, and a 15d6 attack at 14 OCV.

...Ummm, NO! H&LL NO. Etc. And as Trebuchet correctly surmises, even more so than for Z'lf.

...and now do deal with the histronics:

Are you even capable of reading a character sheet; or are you simply so determined to "prove" your non-existant point you can't even see the reality? Zl'f does a maximum of 10d6 including Damage Classes. Her 5d6 NND is equivalent to 10DC. It could be argued her 7d6 Variable (with up to +1/2 Advantages such as AP or AoE) is equal to 10.5 DC, but at 4X the END of her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike it's not much if any more effective. (I have in fact deliberately prevented her combined SPD + DC from equaling 20 because that's the guideline we use in our campaign for rough combat balance.)

Zl'f has 12 PD. 12 ED. Period. Two thirds of it is Resistant, and one half of it is Hardened (Combat Luck). She has TWO levels of Combat Luck, not six. Would it help if I sent you the HD file so you can read it on your preferred character format?
(etc,etc ...rest of the same tone snipped...)

Let's try and take it calmly one thing at a time:
1- C-a--l---m down. ;) No one is attacking you personally.
2- Now let's deal with "can I read a character sheet" Quote:
"12 +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes "
"4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike"
Last time I checked an 8d6 attack +3DC is an 11d6 attack? Now I DID read the sheet hurriedly. Z'lf's MS is Str (3d6 for Z'lf) + 2d6 + 3DC = 8d6 with a maximum of 10d6.
Yes I made mistake and I apologize. Happy?

3- ...And again I quote from the character sheet you posted:
"15 Str 5", "18 Dex 16", "12 PD 3", "12 ED 2", "12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)"
15/5 + 3 CP + 6 = 12 PD, 18/5 + 2 + 6 = 11.6 = 12 ED
Again I made a mistake (yes, I was at work, but no excuses) and I apoligize for it.

4- 12/12 PD/ED (8/8 rPD/rED)

...and all of this means Force1's calculator comes up with
CR= OR + DR + MR = 47 + 53 + 61 = 161

IOW, my mistakes mattered very little in her final score. Z'lf is definitely a high powered combat threat.

I expect that Lariat is worse. I post him next ;)

Ki-rin

Apr 24th, '05, 10:04 PM

Lariat
Ann Bowen

60 Str 50
30 Dex 60
33 Con 46
10 Body 0
18 Int 8
14 Ego 8
15 Pre 5
22 Com 6
12 PD 0
12 ED 5
6 SPD 20
15 Rec -8
66 End 0
57 Stun 0

200 characteristics cost

5 Extra limbs (force tendrils)

15 EC force tendrils
15 12/12 force field 1/2 end
11 5" stretching 1/2 end no noncombat stretching (-1/4) limited body parts (-1/4)
15 24" leap 1/2 end (36" total)
10 missile deflection all adjacent hexes cost end (-1/2)
9 360 degree spatial awareness +3 to perception roll cost end (-1/2) range limited to stretching (-1/4) touch sense group

16 8/8 armor OIF costume

7 explosion on 60 str personal immunity on explosion X10 end cost (-4) (emergency power)

Martial arts
4 Fast Strike 14d6
3 Martial Grab 70 str
3 Martial Throw 12d6 + v/5
6 2 levels with MA

3 Acrobatics
3 Breakfall

Total OCV/DCV of 10 with 2 levels. 32/32 def, 20 resistent.

Hmmm. Unless I've done something wrong, Force1's CR rating system gives
CR = OR + DR + MR = 45 + 51 + 59 = 155
suggesting that Lariat is actually slightly less dangerous than Z'lf.

This might be silly given that Lariat has those extra limbs and that explosion with personal immunity that the program doesn't seem to take into account.

OTOH, it's an eye opener just how close in combat effectiveness the CR systems thinks the two characters are.

David Blue

Apr 24th, '05, 10:30 PM

I am so not seeing the problem with Zl'f. The gamemaster knows everything about how she works.

However, the fact that we have intelligent people unable to agree over which hero might be unbalanced and why underlines one of the problems with Hero System as a superhero game. It's not transparent. It never was, even when it was Champions, and it's getting worse, not better.

In that sense, I like Gary's Lariat. With a little experience, you can look at her in a few seconds or a couple of minutes at most, and say no, unless your game is so high-powered that this really is what you want. In that sense, she's an ideal build.

Ki-rin

Apr 24th, '05, 10:30 PM

Interesting. Using that CR calculator on a "30 Str, 35 Con, else Straight 25's" write up of Steve Rogers with 5 SPD, 13" Run, 20/20 PD/ED (10/10 rPD/rED), 63 STUN, 30 CP of Danger Sense, 30 CP of Find Weakness, 50 CP of MD, Combat Sense, and Fast Draw yields

CR= OR + DR + MR= 44 + 58.6 + 25 = 127.6

A 6 SPD raises that to 130.6

So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator.

Clearly, Cap needs some updating to succeed or survive in this "Brave New World" of combat lethality...

EDIT: The CR calculator needs to be updated to allow for the AP and Penetrating Ad. It also doesn't deal with a character who can take multiple actions in a phase like Lariat can, nor with AoE or other multiple target attacks. I wonder if the source is available?...

Gary

Apr 25th, '05, 03:34 AM

Well, Lariat isn't ever proposed as a "fair" character. Gary uses her as evidence that STR and DEX are too good.

Incidently, hitting campaign [in context of board, this means "most campaigns"] limits on everything while spending minimal amounts on skills and non-combat abilities is the first sign of munch.

I did actually play a toned down version of Lariat for a few years. She's not just a posterchild for why Str and Dex are too cheap. ;)

Lariat spent 31 pts on non-combat skills and comeliness. It's not quite the usual 10% that I prefer, but I don't think you can really characterize it as "minimal" expenditure.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 03:47 AM

Hmmm. Unless I've done something wrong, Force1's CR rating system gives
CR = OR + DR + MR = 45 + 51 + 59 = 155
suggesting that Lariat is actually slightly less dangerous than Z'lf.

This might be silly given that Lariat has those extra limbs and that explosion with personal immunity that the program doesn't seem to take into account.

OTOH, it's an eye opener just how close in combat effectiveness the CR systems thinks the two characters are.Or an eye opening example of how inadequate that combat effectiveness program actually is. Given that Lariat would clearly mop up the floor with Zl'f despite being rated as only 6 points lower than Zl'f should be a pretty good indication that ratings program isn't worth the bandwidth it's posted on. It's far too concerned with how many individual attacks a character has rather than the substance of those attacks. In the case of martial artists, who may indeed have a number of unique martial maneuvers, it rates each maneuver as an individual attack even if all of the attacks are essentially doing the same thing: purely physical damage within a very narrow spectrum of damage classes. (As an example, Zl'f's martial maneuvers range from 7d6 to 10d6; hardly enough difference to get excited about.) It would make more sense to only use the highest DC attack and perhaps the one which provides the highest OCV.

Try using Keneton's Combat Effectiveness Rating spreadsheet (I think it's available in the Free Stuff section) if you want a combat evaluator with a bit more transparency and ability to see subtler differences. It's still inadequate (As Keneton himself admits), but it's vastly superior to the one you're using. No ratings system can possibly substitute for careful examination by the GM within the context of the character's own campaign, because every campaign is different. Those campaigns (about 50%, from what I've seen on the boards) which use the official Champions Universe will probably vary less than made-up-from-whole-cloth campaigns like ours. There are probably campaigns out there where Zl'f would be nearly unstoppable; and other campaigns ostensibly at the same power level where she'd get killed her first time out. Same character, different campaigns, different results.

Hugh Neilson

Apr 25th, '05, 04:51 AM

I am so not seeing the problem with Zl'f. The gamemaster knows everything about how she works.

However, the fact that we have intelligent people unable to agree over which hero might be unbalanced and why underlines one of the problems with Hero System as a superhero game. It's not transparent. It never was, even when it was Champions, and it's getting worse, not better.

I think this is an outgrowth of a flexible system. Systems like M&M which impose strict maxima for what would translate, in Hero terms, to OCV, DCV, DC and defenses, as well as numnerous other areas, sacrifice some flexibility for reduced complexity. By having no such caps, Hero permits greater flexibility at the cost of greater complexity, and a greater onus on players and GM's to balance the game themselves.

Maybe better, maybe worse. Look what hapens in D&D if someone gets the combat rating wrong...

This also highlights the ineffectiveness of formulaic combat rating systems. One simply builds to the areas where the formula breaks down. The system is such that formuli are never wholly effective, and judgement is required.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 06:05 AM

Let's try and take it calmly one thing at a time:
1- C-a--l---m down. ;) No one is attacking you personally.Perhaps you didn't mean it as a personal attack (The jury's still out on that issue. At least one poster in this thread thinks you're just a troll.), but it came across as one. You weren't saying "Gosh, Zl'f sure has a high CV and SPD, doesn't that unbalance your campaign?" Even after I explained how it worked you continued to flatly assert that I was wrong even within the context of my own campaign. You insinuated that either my GM's are a bunch of flunkies or that MidGuard is really "Zl'f & Her Not So Amazing Friends." Actually, I'd rank Zl'f as the third or fourth most powerful member of MidGuard, which puts her solidly in the middle of our team roster.

2- Now let's deal with "can I read a character sheet" Quote:
"12 +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes "
"4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike"
Last time I checked an 8d6 attack +3DC is an 11d6 attack? Now I DID read the sheet hurriedly. Z'lf's MS is Str (3d6 for Z'lf) + 2d6 + 3DC = 8d6 with a maximum of 10d6.
Yes I made mistake and I apologize. Happy?It's the standard Hero Boards format for Hero Designer. Mistakes like that are hard to rationalise. Simply reading what her STR and martial maneuvers were should have told you her damage numbers already included her extra Damage Classes.

3- ...And again I quote from the character sheet you posted:
"15 Str 5", "18 Dex 16", "12 PD 3", "12 ED 2", "12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)"
15/5 + 3 CP + 6 = 12 PD, 18/5 + 2 + 6 = 11.6 = 12 ED
Again I made a mistake (yes, I was at work, but no excuses) and I apoligize for it.See Point #2.

4- 12/12 PD/ED (8/8 rPD/rED)

...and all of this means Force1's calculator comes up with
CR= OR + DR + MR = 47 + 53 + 61 = 161

IOW, my mistakes mattered very little in her final score. Z'lf is definitely a high powered combat threat.I've never claimed otherwise. She's a 400+ point character in a 350 point or less world. Of course, so are her teammates and the opponents we routinely face (Does Eurostar ring any bells?). She is a highly efficient combatant and certainly pulls her own weight within the context of our team. She does not, however, totally dominate combat like you seem to feel she must. I've described more than once on these boards how Zl'f has had to Leg Sweep, Block, or otherwise discommodate opponents she was incapable of actually hurting in order to allow her heavier-hitting teammates to put the bad guy down. She's effective because I never stop looking for ways for her to contribute to the team's overall effort to beat the bad guys, not because her victory in any given fight is predetermined or inevitable. (Zl'f survived a fight with Eurostar's Scorpia only because when Scorpia hit(!) with her claws she failed to roll a good Stun Multiplier. Has Scorpia rolled higher than a '3' we might not be having this conversation.)

David Blue

Apr 25th, '05, 06:40 AM

So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator.No. Does it look like Last Hero would beat Zl'f?

My point is, Zl'f's gamemaster knows far better than any combat calculator could how this character plays in his campaign, and he's fine with it. That's all there is that needs to be known about whether Zl'f is balanced.

The problem is not that there's something wrong with an experienced, in-control gamemaster looking at a character who fits perfectly into his game and has for a long time and being happy with the player and the character. The problem is: how can other gamemasters and players best achieve such characters!?

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 06:43 AM

Interesting. Using that CR calculator on a "30 Str, 35 Con, else Straight 25's" write up of Steve Rogers with 5 SPD, 13" Run, 20/20 PD/ED (10/10 rPD/rED), 63 STUN, 30 CP of Danger Sense, 30 CP of Find Weakness, 50 CP of MD, Combat Sense, and Fast Draw yields

CR= OR + DR + MR= 44 + 58.6 + 25 = 127.6

A 6 SPD raises that to 130.6

So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator.

Clearly, Cap needs some updating to succeed or survive in this "Brave New World" of combat lethality...

EDIT: The CR calculator needs to be updated to allow for the AP and Penetrating Ad. It also doesn't deal with a character who can take multiple actions in a phase like Lariat can, nor with AoE or other multiple target attacks. I wonder if the source is available?...

To determine DC of an attack using that calculator, simply take the active points (including all advantage's) and divide by 5.

I didn't write this calculator. I saved the url from a post here on the hero boards. I have found it to be fairly accurate in determining a characters effectiveness.

Lamrok

Apr 25th, '05, 06:49 AM

Zl'f has been run seccessfully in your campaign for years, and your GM is fine with her build. After that, Internet opinions don't much matter.

Exactly. Looking at a freshly designed character is one thing. Looking at a character that has been adjusted over many sessions with ample input from the GM is another.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 07:57 AM

No. Does it look like Last Hero would beat Zl'f?

My point is, Zl'f's gamemaster knows far better than any combat calculator could how this character plays in his campaign, and he's fine with it. That's all there is that needs to be known about whether Zl'f is balanced.

The problem is not that there's something wrong with an experienced, in-control gamemaster looking at a character who fits perfectly into his game and has for a long time and being happy with the player and the character. The problem is: how can other gamemasters and players best achieve such characters!?It's no state secret: good communication between all the players and GM(s). What isn't visible on Zl'f's character sheet are the numerous Power proposals I've made over the years that the GM's have vetoed as unbalancing or out of concept (very few of those), nor is it obvious which abilities the GMs may have subtlely (or not so subtlely) encouraged (such as Flying Dodge) encouraged me to buy for her. Nor are discussions between individual players as to what does and does not tread on another player's toes noted on character sheets even though they may be equally important in deciding on new purchases.

Character sheets at best are a snapshot; they give no sense of where the character's abilities and experiences have been nor where the character is going. A character, like a historical personage, can only be understood fully within the context of the times and events in which they lived and interacted. Without that understanding, characters are only two-dimensional at best. Without context, objective evaluations are impossible.

And FTR, I don't think Zl'f would stand a chance in combat against Captain America or a properly constructed Champions version. She's good, but he's well... Cap.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 08:39 AM

And FTR, I don't think Zl'f would stand a chance in combat against Captain America or a properly constructed Champions version. She's good, but he's well... Cap.

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 12d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

In short,
1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.
2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.
3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.
Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 08:51 AM

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 10d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

In short,
1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.
2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.
3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.
Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

I don't think that Z'lf would 'beat the crap' out of Cap. Would she win? Probably. However, my Cap has a base CV of 9 (26dex) with at least 4 8pt combat levels and 4 overall levels. Z'lf still gets to dictate the battle with her 43 dex and 9 spd. I am gonna run her numbers thru. I knew her movement score was going to be outrageous, but I want to double check her OR. To determine how effective a character is going to be against someone, I have found it best to compare OR to DR.

Dr. Anomaly

Apr 25th, '05, 08:51 AM

Perhaps you didn't mean it as a personal attack (The jury's still out on that issue. At least one poster in this thread thinks you're just a troll.), but it came across as one.
Treb, it's not nice to releash Flash attacks without warning on everyone reading the thread. ;)

Zed-F

Apr 25th, '05, 08:54 AM

I would never give Cap a base CV of 8, unless I also gave him a bazillion levels to make up the difference between that and where his CV ought to be. He is an extremely experienced fighter. Your assertion that a properly built Cap would never hit Z'lf seems ridiculous. If that is the case for *your* version of Cap, I would submit that perhaps you didn't do as good a job as you think you did.

I bet Cap can do a lot better taking Z'lf's hits than she can take one of his. He hits harder and probably has Find Weakness to boot, plus he has the shield with which to absorb her attacks.

Assuming we are not talking about a complete mismatch in power levels, no amount of stats can make up for poor tactics on the part of one party or the other. If Cap has DEX 23 and 6-8 combat levels (which seems fair) he can at any point have a DCV of 16 or so, or an OCV of 16 or so, before considering martial maneuvers. That gives him pretty good odds of being able to get hits in or avoid getting hit in return. Z'lf would do better in a multi-opponent engagement, but one-on-one CSLs are in many ways better than straight DEX.

Gary

Apr 25th, '05, 08:57 AM

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 10d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

In short,
1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.
2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.
3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.
Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

How many Levels does your Cap have? All he needs is to hit once with a +2 OCV maneuver such as Fast Strike or Leg Sweep and Zl'f is toast.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet
Perhaps you didn't mean it as a personal attack (The jury's still out on that issue. At least one poster in this thread thinks you're just a troll.), but it came across as one.

Treb, it's not nice to releash Flash attacks without warning on everyone reading the thread. ;)

I'm doing my best not to respond in kind to childish and immature personal attacks.

I choose to believe that Treb was this rude by accident and because of a misunderstanding of my posts tone and intent. There's plenty of valuable discussion to have without lingering on out of character mistakes.

Mentor

Apr 25th, '05, 09:10 AM

How many Levels does your Cap have? All he needs is to hit once with a +2 OCV maneuver such as Fast Strike or Leg Sweep and Zl'f is toast.
Exactly. Zl'f has has been stunned by MAs, Bricks, Mentalla, Energy Projectors and even once by a lucky mook (although that just pissed her off and, well you can imagine...)in our campaign. The reason the Zl'f is a hero is that she toughed it out, got back up and got back in to the fight.

Now I don't know how someone else would build the ultimated super soldier fighting machine with a unique shield and many years of experience, but my build version would take Zl'f to school. She might be the top student in that class, but Cap would win. He is tougher and can hit harder.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 09:17 AM

I ran the figures on Z'lf myself just now.

Here is what I came up with.

OR=51 + DR=49 + MR=41 for a total of 141.

I used a 16 ocv, 16 dcv (based on overall levels used on ocv and martial strike), 14 dc (assuming martial strike with +4hth w/+1/2 var adv in multipower), 5 different types of attack (hth, ma's, nnd, ha, eb), 9 spd, 20" movement, 4 types of movement (significant leap, run, teleport, swimming) 12 pd/ep 8 resistant, 29 stun, 45 pts of missile refelct and 10pts of regen.

These are all based on active points. I guess these 2 questions remain:

Is she balanced for her campaign?

I have no doubt about that. To many people posting here stating she does work in her campaign.

Is she very powerful?

Absolutely no doubt with no reservations.

If she is running in a very powerful campaign she is no doubt balanced. Anything less and she is one of the most powerful characters in the campaign.

edited: should be 14dc, not 17dc. Lowered appropriate ratings.

OddHat

Apr 25th, '05, 09:19 AM

Exactly. Zl'f has has been stunned by MAs, Bricks, Mentalla, Energy Projectors and even once by a lucky mook (although that just pissed her off and, well you can imagine...)in our campaign. The reason the Zl'f is a hero is that she toughed it out, got back up and got back in to the fight.

Now I don't know how someone else would build the ultimated super soldier fighting machine with a unique shield and many years of experience, but my build version would take Zl'f to school. She might be the top student in that class, but Cap would win. He is tougher and can hit harder.

Yup. I'd set his CV+Levels to max out at the campaign limit, based on his performance in the comics. Talking about a Comic Book character's representation outside of the context of the campaign in which he's to be played is meaningless.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 09:27 AM

Treb, it's not nice to releash Flash attacks without warning on everyone reading the thread. ;)I'm not accusing Ki-Rin of being a troll; I was merely relaying the fact that another poster in this thread PM'd me and said in his opinion that's what Ki-Rin was.

I think Ki-Rin is just someone who is somewhat... forceful with his views, and occasionally goes over the top.

Just like me, in other words. :D

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 09:29 AM

I'm doing my best not to respond in kind to childish and immature personal attacks.

I choose to believe that Treb was this rude by accident and because of a misunderstanding of my posts tone and intent. There's plenty of valuable discussion to have without lingering on out of character mistakes.Agreed. The discussion of this topic (not Zl'f, but how characters balance differs between the paper version and what actually happens in-game) is valuable.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 09:34 AM

I ran the figures on Z'lf myself just now.

Here is what I came up with.

OR=51 + DR=49 + MR=41 for a total of 141.

I used a 16 ocv, 16 dcv (based on overall levels used on ocv and martial strike), 14 dc (assuming martial strike with +4hth w/+1/2 var adv in multipower), 5 different types of attack (hth, ma's, nnd, ha, eb), 9 spd, 20" movement, 4 types of movement (significant leap, run, teleport, swimming) 12 pd/ep 8 resistant, 29 stun, 45 pts of missile refelct and 10pts of regen.

These are all based on active points. I guess these 2 questions remain:

Is she balanced for her campaign?

I have no doubt about that. To many people posting here stating she does work in her campaign.

Is she very powerful?

Absolutely no doubt with no reservations.

If she is running in a very powerful campaign she is no doubt balanced. Anything less and she is one of the most powerful characters in the campaign.

edited: should be 14dc, not 17dc. Lowered appropriate ratings.Um, no. Her maximum Pushed attack is 12 DC's. The Advantages on the HA in her MP do not add to her martial maneuvers' damage, nor can they stack.

I doubt that will change the rating much; perhaps lower it by a few points. But rating are irrelevant anyway.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 09:36 AM

Bare in mind that Steve Rogers has +many+ places that need CP to be spent on in order to make him a proper Homage build.

The other problem is that it's more "efficient" system-wise to buy a few MA and lot's of levels with them. OTOH, Cap's experience is best modelled by him having many MA. Given his base abilities, we can only give him so many levels before we start running into problems.

Cap can't have 6-8 levels in most campaigns. Particularly if he has a 26 or 28 Dex and lot's of abilities. 3-4 levels is more like it. That's still enough to be considered BIG for most campaigns.

Do you folks REALLY think a Base CV of 8-9 plus a 12d6 HTH attack AND a 12d6 EB and MD/MR and Find Weakness and 3-4 levels with any of it at SPD 6 is under-powered for a Homage build of Cap in >your< campaigns? If so, we are not playing the same game.

The reality is that most of Cap's combat abilities are meaningless to Z'lf (FW and MD/MR and Defense Maneuver and Combat Sense and ...), or worse actually become a liability to Cap (his shield EB).

With maneuvering and SL's Steve can improve the odds so that he hits ~1/6 or ~1/4 and gets hit ~19/20 or ~9/10 by Z'lf. Z'lf still competely controls the tactical movement of the battle and still always has initiative. And still almost always hits while almost never being hit.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 09:36 AM

I haven't seen a character with a 7d6 attack cause such an uproar before.

If it was just a '7d6' attack, I doubt if there would be such an uproar...

:)

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 09:37 AM

Um, no. Her maximum Pushed attack is 12 DC's. The Advantages on the HA in her MP do not add to her martial maneuvers' damage, nor can they stack.

I doubt that will change the rating much; perhaps lower it by a few points. But rating are irrelevant anyway.

Perhaps you could explain why the hth attack does not add to her martial attack?

I saw nothing in the build that would indicate that.

And like you said about opinions, they don't seem to matter to you at least...

Gary

Apr 25th, '05, 09:42 AM

Bare in mind that Steve Rogers has +many+ places that need CP to be spent on in order to make him a proper Homage build.

The other problem is that it's more "efficient" system-wise to buy a few MA and lot's of levels with them. OTOH, Cap's experience is best modelled by him having many MA. Given his base abilities, we can only give him so many levels before we start running into problems.

Cap can't have 6-8 levels in most campaigns. Particularly if he has a 26 or 28 Dex and lot's of abilities. 3-4 levels is more like it. That's still enough to be considered BIG for most campaigns.

Do you folks REALLY think a Base CV of 8-9 plus a 12d6 HTH attack AND a 12d6 EB and MD/MR and Find Weakness and 3-4 levels with any of it at SPD 6 is under-powered for a Homage build of Cap in >your< campaigns? If so, we are not playing the same game.

The reality is that most of Cap's combat abilities are meaningless to Z'lf (FW and MD/MR and Defense Maneuver and Combat Sense and ...), or worse actually become a liability to Cap (his shield EB).

With maneuvering and SL's Steve can improve the odds so that he hits ~1/6 or ~1/4 and gets hit ~19/20 or ~9/10 by Z'lf. Z'lf still competely controls the tactical movement of the battle and still always has initiative. And still almost always hits while almost never being hit.

9 Base CV +4 Levels +2 OCV from Fast Strike or Leg Sweep = 15 OCV = Crumpled up heap of Zl'f long before she takes him out. Her best bet is to run away.

AliceTheOwl

Apr 25th, '05, 09:44 AM

I'm doing my best not to respond in kind to childish and immature personal attacks.

I choose to believe that Treb was this rude by accident and because of a misunderstanding of my posts tone and intent. There's plenty of valuable discussion to have without lingering on out of character mistakes.
o v O

. . . .

O v o

. . . .

. . . .

Never mind.

Mentor

Apr 25th, '05, 09:45 AM

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 12d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

In short,
1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.
2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.
3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.
Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.The fallacy of this whole contention is that Zl'f doesn't fight Cap or the dark version in an arena. Zl'f fights villains who are either more ruthless, often from ambush, usually having chosen the fight terrain, whom have studied the actions of Midguard or using normals as shields or hostages. The numbers never tell it all. Only game play matters, thus it can hardly be considered "propaganda" which I think you have to agree is a rather derisive term. :winkgrin:

Secondly, Midguard are the Avengers of the Europa 2000 campaign world so they are supposed to be the toughest team in this campaign, but nowhere near as capable as the Marvel Universe version, Thor and the Hulk alone being able to take the team out.

Thirdly and most importantly, the numbers are never more than a vaguely useful guideline in determining capability as the effects of things like flying opponents, villains with Damage Shield, CSLs and purely tough defenses often impact Zl'f far more than most of the other PCs on the team. While I must consider Zl'f's abilities in designing a scenario, that applies to all the PCs in our campaign. It is never more difficult to find a challenge for the Zl'f PC than our versitile tunnelling demibrick, Vesuvius, our teleporting 50 STR boxer Sidestep, our mystical cage fighter Cloud dragon, the detective/wizard Magister or the three previously mentioned characters. They all have thier schtick and none is overbalanced. Unless they work as a team and as heroes, they are in a world of huet. None of the scenarios I have run have been walkovers nor have they been fudged to save the team. More than once has one PC been standing to keep the villains busy while the rest of the team recovers from being stunned and it has only been Zl'f twice.

What the numbers do not reflect is that in a given turn Zl'f might hit an opponent four or five times and leak 20 to 25 points of STUN through against 30PD in a turn while our brick Silhouette might hit only once, and get get 23 STUN through, but stuns the opponent as it all gets through at once. This doesn't even account for Knockback. Thunderbird, the Energy projector is flying and his Lightning Bolt would likely hit the same opponent 2 times, getting 24 STUN through if we assume the ED is the same as the PD. Now in this given turn, only Zl'f has defenses low enough for there to be any risk that one and definitely two hits (unlikely) averaging 10 to 12D6 would stun her. So all in all, the difference of liklihood of being downed vs downing an opponent at 350 to 400 character points is pretty balanced, with the overall edge going to Silhouette or Thunderbird, depending on the opponents and especially the location of the fight, which in occasional situations does favor Zl'f.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 09:48 AM

Bare in mind that Steve Rogers has +many+ places that need CP to be spent on in order to make him a proper Homage build.

The other problem is that it's more "efficient" system-wise to buy a few MA and lot's of levels with them. OTOH, Cap's experience is best modelled by him having many MA. Given his base abilities, we can only give him so many levels before we start running into problems.

Cap can't have 6-8 levels in most campaigns. Particularly if he has a 26 or 28 Dex and lot's of abilities. 3-4 levels is more like it. That's still enough to be considered BIG for most campaigns.

Do you folks REALLY think a Base CV of 8-9 plus a 12d6 HTH attack AND a 12d6 EB and MD/MR and Find Weakness and 3-4 levels with any of it at SPD 6 is under-powered for a Homage build of Cap in >your< campaigns? If so, we are not playing the same game.

The reality is that most of Cap's combat abilities are meaningless to Z'lf (FW and MD/MR and Defense Maneuver and Combat Sense and ...), or worse actually become a liability to Cap (his shield EB).

With maneuvering and SL's Steve can improve the odds so that he hits ~1/6 or ~1/4 and gets hit ~19/20 or ~9/10 by Z'lf. Z'lf still competely controls the tactical movement of the battle and still always has initiative. And still almost always hits while almost never being hit.Well, that's only true if you're building him as a PC in a campaign. But building a full homage version of Captain America is going to take a lot more than 350 points; more like 600. I'd start him out with 29 DEX and 6 SPD and at least 6 Levels (3 Overall; 3 w/shield), maybe several more. Zl'f would be hitting a lot, but she'd mostly be hitting the shield and not Cap. And unlike Zl'f, Cap can take one of her hits. It doesn't go both ways. He'd use Analyze Style to figure out how Zl'f works and get a CV bonus. And he'd Block repeatedly with that shield (DCV bonus remains between Phases) until the opportunity comes to pop her. Or he'd throw the shield, deliberately "miss" her, and hit her in the back with the bounce. Fight over.

I'm a big Cap fan myself. :D

Mentor

Apr 25th, '05, 09:50 AM

:D
Well, that's only true if you're building him as a PC in a campaign. But building a full homage version of Captain America is going to take a lot more than 350 points; more like 600. I'd start him out with 29 DEX and 6 SPD and at least 6 Levels (3 Overall; 3 w/shield), maybe several more. Zl'f would be hitting a lot, but she'd mostly be hitting the shield and not Cap. And unlike Zl'f, Cap can take one of her hits. It doesn't go both ways. He'd use Analyze Style to figure out how Zl'f works and get a CV bonus. And he'd Block repeatedly with that shield (DCV bonus remains between Phases) until the opportunity comes to pop her. Or he'd throw the shield, deliberately "miss" her, and hit her in the back with the bounce. Fight over.

I'm a big Cap fan myself. :DSumbitch! :mad: You aren't supposed to predict how I'd use him against you.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 09:52 AM

Perhaps you could explain why the hth attack does not add to her martial attack?

I saw nothing in the build that would indicate that.

And like you said about opinions, they don't seem to matter to you at least...It's not in the build; it's in the rules. Per 5er, Advantages on HA do not add to martial maneuver damage. The Advantages only modify damage done with her STR. (If she hit for 16 DC, she would hit harder than even our brick.)

OddHat

Apr 25th, '05, 09:55 AM

It's not in the build; it's in the rules. Per 5er, Advantages on HA do not add to martial maneuver damage. The Advantages only modify damage done with her STR. (If she hit for 16 DC, she would hit harder than even our brick.)

Except with GM permission, as per UMA p.127, but yup.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 09:57 AM

:D Sumbitch! :mad: You aren't supposed to predict how I'd use him against you.Hey, I know that; Zl'f doesn't. The bouncing shield gets 'em every time. :D

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 09:58 AM

It's not in the build; it's in the rules. Per 5er, Advantages on HA do not add to martial maneuver damage. The Advantages only modify damage done with her STR. (If she hit for 16 DC, she would hit harder than even our brick.)

So she still hits for 12dc. I believe that will still lower her OR by 2-3.

12dc is still a very powerful attack for 16ocv/16dcv 43dex/9spd.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 09:59 AM

Except with GM permission, as per UMA p.127, but yup.I wouldn't ever ask for such permission, and would refuse it if granted. That would make her grossly unbalanced.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 10:00 AM

So over On Topic for the thread:

If there's anything this digression proves it's that high Dex, high SPD, high skill, low or moderate damage, low defense characters are not only a viable character concept...

...they are easily made just as or even more deadly than ones with big attacks and high defenses.

"Speed Kills" was the bumper sticker. "Dex and SPD kills" or perhaps "The Quick or The Dead" is the equivalent HERO one.

The other point IMHO clearly made is that is very easy to create a game-balance threatening Combat Monster at the typical CP levels of a Champions campaign, and to do it via multiple character archetypes.

To keep campaigns from being broken, you have to set a performance envelope for your PC's based on skill*SPD*(expected damage) and tactical mobility and ENFORCE it.
OTOH, the typical Champions envelope is large enough to allow many different character archetypes that effectively deliver similar results to be safely expressed.

Legal characters like Lariat and Z'lf WILL break most campaigns, but that is only because they are outside the performance envelope.

So, as always, the responsibility falls on us GMs to be a sane final authority as to what is and is not allowed.

*Troll crawls back under his bridge to earn gold for living... ...oh, and picks nose and waves bugger covered middle finger at @$$hat who called him "just" a troll*

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 10:01 AM

So she still hits for 12dc. I believe that will still lower her OR by 2-3.

12dc is still a very powerful attack for 16ocv/16dcv 43dex/9spd.No, she hits for 10 DC unless she Pushes. And with 9 SPD she doesn't have enough END to Push regularly in combat.

Hugh Neilson

Apr 25th, '05, 10:04 AM

Well, that's only true if you're building him as a PC in a campaign. But building a full homage version of Captain America is going to take a lot more than 350 points; more like 600. I'd start him out with 29 DEX and 6 SPD and at least 6 Levels (3 Overall; 3 w/shield), maybe several more. Zl'f would be hitting a lot, but she'd mostly be hitting the shield and not Cap. And unlike Zl'f, Cap can take one of her hits. It doesn't go both ways. He'd use Analyze Style to figure out how Zl'f works and get a CV bonus. And he'd Block repeatedly with that shield (DCV bonus remains between Phases) until the opportunity comes to pop her. Or he'd throw the shield, deliberately "miss" her, and hit her in the back with the bounce. Fight over.

Pretty much exactly how I would se that battle going - Z'lf might get a shot or two past the shield, and Cap would have trouble hitting her. He'd then use his many levels with the shield (he must have a lot to be an accurate homage given how many bounces he can make that shield do) to bounce the shioeld off a couple of objects to connect with Z'lf for a Surprise bonus. End of battle.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 10:06 AM

So over On Topic for the thread:

If there's anything this digression proves it's that high Dex, high SPD, high skill, low or moderate damage, low defense characters are not only a viable character concept...

...they are easily made just as or even more deadly than ones with big attacks and high defenses.

"Speed Kills" was the bumper sticker. "Dex and SPD kills" or perhaps "The Quick or The Dead" is the equivalent HERO one.

The other point IMHO clearly made is that is very easy to create a game-balance threatening Combat Monster at the typical CP levels of a Champions campaign, and to do it via multiple character archetypes.

To keep campaigns from being broken, you have to set a performance envelope for your PC's based on skill*SPD*(expected damage) and tactical mobility and ENFORCE it.
OTOH, the typical Champions envelope is large enough to allow many different character archetypes that effectively deliver similar results to be safely expressed.

Legal characters like Lariat and Z'lf WILL break most campaigns, but that is only because they are outside the performance envelope.

So, as always, the responsibility falls on us GMs to be a sane final authority as to what is and is not allowed.Gee, wasn't that my point all along? That it's not necessary to have characters who can take multiple hits in order to have an effective character? All characters must be measured against the campaign they're intended for; anything else is pure speculation.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 10:09 AM

o v O

. . . .

O v o

. . . .

. . . .

Never mind.
ROTFLMAO!! Thanks Alice, I +NEEDED+ that.

EDIT: Oh God, I;'m still laughing so hard I can barely type... ...or breathe

OddHat

Apr 25th, '05, 10:12 AM

I wouldn't ever ask for such permission, and would refuse it if granted. That would make her grossly unbalanced.

Generally, if the character is using a weapon for his HA, and if that weapon carries advantages, I will allow those advantages to apply to MA maneuvers (one example would be a Ghost-Cutting Sword in a Wuxia campaign). However, I'd take that into account when deciding if the character was appropriate for the campaign in the first place.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 10:18 AM

No, she hits for 10 DC unless she Pushes. And with 9 SPD she doesn't have enough END to Push regularly in combat.

Str=15 is 3dc
Martial strike= 2dc
+3dc Martial arts =3dc

That's 8d6 right?

Add +4d6hth with zero end (from the multipower) and that makes 12d6 right?

Advantages only don't add to martial damage right? You still get to use hth right? Zero end does not add to damage.

I am thinking that this specifically applied to things like AP, Pen, so on and so forth.

Unless I have missed something completely...

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 10:22 AM

As I said, the version of Cap I'm referencing here =IS= a 650-700 CP character.
To make him a proper Homage Build, most of those points are in places that are irrelevant to a battle between Z'lf and Cap. Z'lf OTOH, is a very focused character concept. In short, Z'lf is a variant on the "one trick pony" character we've all dealt with before, it's just that her "one trick" is a VERY flexible and powerful trick system wise.

Oh and...
MD/MR will Block and Reflect a Bounced shield just as effectively as a non bounced one. Cap may get a +1 to +3 Surprise Bonus, but that's it.

Z'lf STILL gets to choose between full defense (in which case no one is touching her) or MR that 12d6 right back at Cap.

And Treb, She IS a MA/Speedster. It's her Dex and SPD that make her MA as effective as they are. In effect, she does, and needs to, use her SPD as a weapon.

Gary

Apr 25th, '05, 10:33 AM

As I said, the version of Cap I'm referencing here =IS= a 650-700 CP character.
To make him a proper Homage Build, most of those points are in places that are irrelevant to a battle between Z'lf and Cap. Z'lf OTOH, is a very focused character concept. In short, Z'lf is a variant on the "one trick pony" character we've all dealt with before, it's just that her "one trick" is a VERY flexible and powerful trick system wise.

Oh and...
MD/MR will Block and Reflect a Bounced shield just as effectively as a non bounced one. Cap may get a +1 to +3 Surprise Bonus, but that's it.

Z'lf STILL gets to choose between full defense (in which case no one is touching her) or MR that 12d6 right back at Cap.

And Treb, She IS a MA/Speedster. It's her Dex and SPD that make her MA as effective as they are. In effect, she does, and needs to, use her SPD as a weapon.

Who the heck cares if she's untouchable with a full defense? So is Spiderman, only Zl'f does a lot less damage. Being hard to hit is Zl'f's Schtick! The bottom line is that even your version of Cap with 26 Dex and 4 levels could handily beat her if she stands and fights. Most likely she'd just use her 30" of Running to scram.

Zl'f is powerful and there are many characters that she could beat (as well as many she'd lose to). That doesn't make her in any way unbalanced.

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 10:41 AM

Who the heck cares if she's untouchable with a full defense? So is Spiderman, only Zl'f does a lot less damage. Being hard to hit is Zl'f's Schtick! The bottom line is that even your version of Cap with 26 Dex and 4 levels could handily beat her if she stands and fights. Most likely she'd just use her 30" of Running to scram.

Zl'f is powerful and there are many characters that she could beat (as well as many she'd lose to). That doesn't make her in any way unbalanced.

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?

I don't think anyone is really saying she is too powerful. It's that she is not as weak as she is being portrayed.

Is she invincible? Heck no.

Is she very powerful martial artist? You bet.

Is she unbalanced for her campaign? Doesn't sound like it to me.

And Cap has always been a good litmus test for martial artists.

Beetle

Apr 25th, '05, 10:46 AM

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?Good point. How does she fare compared to Bulldozer? :hex:

AliceTheOwl

Apr 25th, '05, 11:05 AM

ROTFLMAO!! Thanks Alice, I +NEEDED+ that.

EDIT: Oh God, I;'m still laughing so hard I can barely type... ...or breathe
Um. Okay.

You're welcome?

o v O

(this is what happens when I try to post to a NORMAL thread . . .)

Mike W

Apr 25th, '05, 11:05 AM

Actually, I think Cap is a good acid test for martial artists and CVs since he is Marvel's acknowledged "best hand to hand fighter in the world". Martial artists who are significantly better than Cap or anyone with higher CVs is either playing in a campaign where the power level is much higher or is out of balance with the campaign and it's up to the GM to determine which.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 11:12 AM

Who the heck cares if she's untouchable with a full defense? So is Spiderman, only Zl'f does a lot less damage. Being hard to hit is Zl'f's Schtick!

It means she can control how much she gets hurt and when. IOW, she ALWAYS has control of the ebb and flow of the battle. In chess and go we call it "tempo". If you don't see how tactically valuable total control over tempo is, you are not the gamer I think you are.

The bottom line is that even your version of Cap with 26 Dex and 4 levels could handily beat her if she stands and fights. Most likely she'd just use her 30" of Running to scram.

Ummm, no he can't. Unless he gets a shot in, and the odds are against it, Z'lf rates to win a one on one between them.

Zl'f is powerful and there are many characters that she could beat (as well as many she'd lose to). That doesn't make her in any way unbalanced.

THE POINT is that Z'lf and Lariat are so powerful as to be campaign breakers for the vast majority of long term Champions campaigns I've ever seen or heard of. They are WAY too powerful to even be considered as viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games. Multiple methods of analyzing them have been brought to bear and all agree to make that point and still somehow you and Treb persist downplaying just how Combat Monster they are.

Using them as a basis for discussion regarding what is fair for typical Champions campaigns is a fatally flawed premise for that exact reason. We need to discuss character concepts that are balanced for the typical 350-400 CP Champions campaign in order to validly examine the topic of this thread.

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?

Again, missing the point. The Homage version of Cap is a 650-700 CP Combat Expert, yet he's not a god or anything gross like that. HE IS TOO POWERFUL TO BE A PC IN THE TYPICAL CHAMPIONS CAMPAIGN AND EITHER LARIAT OR Z'LF HAVE A GOOD CHANCE TO MAKE MINCEMEAT OF HIM. If he's too powerful for a 350 CP campaign and your characters can toast him... ...am I getting through yet?

The topic is "Creation Philosophy". Lariat and Z'lf are great demonstrations of what should be out of bounds for a typical Champions campaign. What I'm NOT hearing is advice to GMs as to how to define those bounds in such a way as to maximize people's choices and fun while having a way to identify the game breakers like Lariat and Z'lf before it's too late.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 11:18 AM

Um. Okay.

You're welcome?

o v O

(this is what happens when I try to post to a NORMAL thread . . .)
*in Oliver Twist accent*
"Pretty, pretty, please mum? What is a NORMAL thread? and where can I find one?"

(or did you mean "normal" as in "perpendicular to Reality"?...)

Super Squirrel

Apr 25th, '05, 11:21 AM

I'd like to see a 350 pt character from Ki'rin that is useful in combat and not "game unbalancing". I think all characters in one regard or another are.

Shardik and The Greek are two good examples of that. :)

OddHat

Apr 25th, '05, 11:23 AM

Actually, I think Cap is a good acid test for martial artists and CVs since he is Marvel's acknowledged "best hand to hand fighter in the world". Martial artists who are significantly better than Cap or anyone with higher CVs is either playing in a campaign where the power level is much higher or is out of balance with the campaign and it's up to the GM to determine which.

There is no one official Hero System write up of Captain America, and if there were then GMs wold still change it from campaign to campaign. One write up of Cap might place him with a max OCV of 20 (Legendary Dex + 4 w/ MA +4 Overall + Fast Strike) while another might place him with a max OCV of 12 or lower. Out of context, neither write-up would be more correct.

In Zl'f's game world, if the GM decides that Cap is a better HtH fighter than Zl'f, he'll design Cap accordingly.

Mike W

Apr 25th, '05, 11:28 AM

There is no one official Hero System write up of Captain America, and if there were then GMs wold still change it from campaign to campaign. One write up of Cap might place him with a max OCV of 20 (Legendary Dex + 4 w/ MA +4 Overall + Fast Strike) while another might place him with a max OCV of 12 or lower. Out of context, neither write-up would be more correct.

In Zl'f's game world, if the GM decides that Cap is a better HtH fighter than Zl'f, he'll design Cap accordingly.

True, but the point I was trying to make is that when we make characters, we often have comic book characters in mind, whether we are making an "homage" character or just trying to gauge power levels. So whatever Cap's writeup is for the campaign, he serves as a useful guide to the upper limits of martial artists and CVs.

I do think that the argument over Z'lf, Lariat, etc has derailed the thread a bit though. The argument is more about the characters and not about how to balance a particular campaign world, whether you are playing street level or highpowered, or whatever.

Gary

Apr 25th, '05, 11:28 AM

It means she can control how much she gets hurt and when. IOW, she ALWAYS has control of the ebb and flow of the battle. In chess and go we call it "tempo". If you don't see how tactically valuable total control over tempo is, you are not the gamer I think you are.

I repeat. That's Zl'f's schtick. Any character with lots of movements and speed has the same advantage. Would you consider Quicksilver too powerful even though he can completely control the tempo against Cap?

Ummm, no he can't. Unless he gets a shot in, and the odds are against it, Z'lf rates to win a one on one between them.

With an OCV of 15??? You don't think he can land one single blow against a DCV 16 Zl'f? And it only takes one single hit to take her out. She probably needs 5-6 hits at least to take him out.

THE POINT is that Z'lf and Lariat are so powerful as to be campaign breakers for the vast majority of long term Champions campaigns I've ever seen or heard of. They are WAY too powerful to even be considered as viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games. Multiple methods of analyzing them have been brought to bear and all agree to make that point and still somehow you and Treb persist downplaying just how Combat Monster they are.

Those 'methods' of analysis has Zl'f grossly overpowered. Anyone with an Area Effect, Explosion, Flight, Darkness, Mental, high skill levels, etc can take her out. I mean what kind of wimps do you create in your world where 8d6 attacks are serious danger?

Using them as a basis for discussion regarding what is fair for typical Champions campaigns is a fatally flawed premise for that exact reason. We need to discuss character concepts that are balanced for the typical 350-400 CP Champions campaign in order to validly examine the topic of this thread.

You're making an assertion that Zl'f isn't balanced for a 350-400 campaign. I disagree since her lack of defenses and damage seriously limits her effectiveness.

Again, missing the point. The Homage version of Cap is a 650-700 CP Combat Expert, yet he's not a god or anything gross like that. HE IS TOO POWERFUL TO BE A PC IN THE TYPICAL CHAMPIONS CAMPAIGN AND EITHER LARIAT OR Z'LF HAVE A GOOD CHANCE TO MAKE MINCEMEAT OF HIM. If he's too powerful for a 350 CP campaign and your characters can toast him... ...am I getting through yet?

The Homage version of Cap probably has 150+ pts of noncombat skills and abilities. He also retains most of his abilities even if Dex drained or grabbed, and doesn't spend lots of time in a weaker identity. Please don't compare raw points.

The topic is "Creation Philosophy". Lariat and Z'lf are great demonstrations of what should be out of bounds for a typical Champions campaign. What I'm NOT hearing is advice to GMs as to how to define those bounds in such a way as to maximize people's choices and fun while having a way to identify the game breakers like Lariat and Z'lf before it's too late.

It's up to the individual GM, not a blanket rule made up by some random guy on the internet.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 11:42 AM

It's up to the individual GM, not a blanket rule made up by some random guy on the internet.

So what you are saying is that this thread serves no purpose.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 11:46 AM

Str=15 is 3dc
Martial strike= 2dc
+3dc Martial arts =3dc

That's 8d6 right?

Add +4d6hth with zero end (from the multipower) and that makes 12d6 right?

Advantages only don't add to martial damage right? You still get to use hth right? Zero end does not add to damage.

I am thinking that this specifically applied to things like AP, Pen, so on and so forth.

Unless I have missed something completely...I already stated the +4d6 HA doesn't add to Zl'f's MA maneuvers. That's my intention, and if that's wrong as built (I don't believe it is) then I'll adjust the build accordingly.

She does 10 DC; 12 DC Pushed. No more, and not with Advantages.

OddHat

Apr 25th, '05, 11:47 AM

So what you are saying is that this thread serves no purpose.

No, and that's not what he posted.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 11:51 AM

I already stated the +4d6 HA doesn't add to Zl'f's MA maneuvers. That's my intention, and if that's wrong as built (I don't believe it is) then I'll adjust the build accordingly.

She does 10 DC; 12 DC Pushed. No more, and not with Advantages.

Ok. I was just going by how she was built.

I don't see how she does 10dc with the hth attack tho.

It's 30 active points with 15 str. Should only be 9dc.

That will lower her into the hi 130's range, which is about what a 400pt character should be overall.

At 9dc's she is more of an annoyance to a typical 400pt brick or eb.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 11:52 AM

No, and that's not what he posted.

But what he stated was it's up to the campaign and gm.

So why even discuss the creation philosophy outlined in the original post?

There is no point.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 11:57 AM

In Zl'f's game world, if the GM decides that Cap is a better HtH fighter than Zl'f, he'll design Cap accordingly.In this case, the player is ascertaining Zl'f probably couldn't beat Captain America one on one (She might win one out of several fights if Cap makes a mistake or she gets lucky. Cap doesn't make mistakes.).

It doesn't show in this current build, but Zl'f was largely originally conceived as a knockoff of Cap; not as a rival. She was a Russian counterpart to Cap. (The Russian government even wanted her for their super-soldier program.) She even wore a red and yellow costume to reflect the Soviet colors. She used to carry a baton with which she did the same things Cap does with his shield: throw it as a ranged attack, Missile Deflect, do extra damage. I just dropped the baton with the 5e rewrite.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 12:02 PM

Ok. I was just going by how she was built.

I don't see how she does 10dc with the hth attack tho.

It's 30 active points with 15 str. Should only be 9dc.

That will lower her into the hi 130's range, which is about what a 400pt character should be overall.

At 9dc's she is more of an annoyance to a typical 400pt brick or eb.She does 7d6 + ½ Advantages with the HA, not 9. That's equivalent to 10½ DC's; not much more powerful than her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike maneuver and without the OCV bonus.

If I erred in her construction, I'll change it to reflect what I intended.

OddHat

Apr 25th, '05, 12:06 PM

But what he stated was it's up to the campaign and gm.

So why even discuss the creation philosophy outlined in the original post?

There is no point.

Gary can speak for himelf, but the from the first post in the thread:

I was looking at the sample characters in the big black book, trying to work out some system for comparing the combat efficiency of various characters: my conclusion is that you just can’t do it, even when you are only comparing two characters, unless they are built in a very straightforward way. Nevermind; looking at the character builds got me thinking.

Go take a look at the sample super-characters, all built on standard superhero points of 350.. The sample ‘brick’ (Taurus) and ‘armour guy’ (Hardpoint) BOTH have 20 PD and 30 CON (the lowest PD of any of the four super-heroic characters, lower even that the martial artist!). I thought that was strange, BUT 20 is the recommended DEF for a character of that level, it’s just that, after years of character design, I never build characters like that.

SNIP

Anyway, this got me thinking: what is the biggest problem in the game, even for experienced players? How long combat takes. There’s all kinds of ways to speed up combat I’ve seen (and tried) over the years, but the one that never occurred to me was designing characters that wouldn’t last so long in a fight!

Is it possible we have all become a bit too good at character design, and forgotten that the real reason we are doing this is to play an enjoyable game, not finally attain The Perfect Build.

It’s a strange thought, but maybe we should pay rather more attention to the character build guidelines and the sample characters, and create characters that are designed to be superheroes rather than characters that are designed to be points efficient: we tend to get a bit paranoid and assume that if we do not make a character that is as points efficient as possible, someone else will, and we’ll get shown up.

It might feel odd, but I suspect it could be fun!

One conclusion some draw is that character combat efficiency questions are ultimately the domain of each inividual GM; that does not render the discussion pointless.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 12:07 PM

She does 7d6 + ½ Advantages with the HA, not 9. That's equivalent to 10½ DC's; not much more powerful than her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike maneuver and without the OCV bonus.

If I erred in her construction, I'll change it to reflect what I intended.

Ahhh, you are correct and I stand corrected. Don't make any changes to your character just because I was 'nitpicking' (which I wasn't, I was simply going by how I interpreted her build).

Like you stated, opinions don't matter.

As I stated, she is a very dangerous martial artist, as she should be in her campaign. She is slightly overpowered according the the ratings program I use to compare folks, but like you stated even that doesn't matter.

I don't even know why we are continuing this thread. Nothing to be gained by it as everything can be dismissed so easily.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 12:09 PM

One conclusion some draw is that character combat efficiency questions are ultimately the domain of each inividual GM; that does not render the discussion pointless.

Sure it does.

Everyone just uses that to dismiss everything that is brought up here.

It's been mentioned in this post many times...

Opinions don't matter.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 12:13 PM

As I stated, she is a very dangerous martial artist, as she should be in her campaign. She is slightly overpowered according the the ratings program I use to compare folks, but like you stated even that doesn't matter.I've never claimed otherwise. She is dangerous, and powerful within her own limits. As I stated, I'd put her right in the middle of MidGuard so far as combat power; and Mentor concurs with this assessment.

I don't even know why we are continuing this thread. Nothing to be gained by it as everything can be dismissed so easily.Bring new arguments and points to the discussion and it will cease being pointless. The entire point of this thread was how difficult it is to evaluate characters in combat based simply on points. If nothing else, new players and GMs can learn this is more art than science.

OddHat

Apr 25th, '05, 12:16 PM

Sure it does.

Everyone just uses that to dismiss everything that is brought up here.

It's been mentioned in this post many times...

Opinions don't matter.

The discussion itself is a thought exercise; working through the hows and why of combat and character creation can be useful in heling a GM form his own opinion. From that point of view, there's a point. Still, no point in arguing. ;)

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 12:18 PM

Sure it does.

Everyone just uses that to dismiss everything that is brought up here.

It's been mentioned in this post many times...

Opinions don't matter.Now you're getting peevish. :tsk:

Your opinions, or Ki-Rin's, or OddHat's, don't matter in my campaign. But they'd be important if any of you were the GM of a campaign I play in. In our campaign, I have to respect the opinions of Blackjack and Mentor; not of another player hundreds of miles away who is looking at my character in a vaccuum and not in the context of her own campaign.

Mentor

Apr 25th, '05, 12:21 PM

So what you are saying is that this thread serves no purpose.
He is saying that clever character design and clever GM campaign design and running is complementary. He gave several good examples of the types of standard Champion campaign abilities that counterbalance the "overwhelmigly powerful" constructs of Z'lf and Lariat.

One poster's claim that these PCs are campaign breakers and Captain America could not possibly beat either of them was apparantly insufficiently convincing to most of the board members. Certainly not to me.

AliceTheOwl

Apr 25th, '05, 12:28 PM

*in Oliver Twist accent*
"Pretty, pretty, please mum? What is a NORMAL thread? and where can I find one?"

(or did you mean "normal" as in "perpendicular to Reality"?...)
Normal as in, "What this site was built for, as opposed to the BS in NGD."

A rather large percentage of my posts are from the NGD. So it's FUN BS over there, but BS nonetheless.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 12:49 PM

I just looked more closely at that Combat Ratings page, and noted that her Regeneration raises her Combat Rating by 40 points despite the fact it takes an hour to work and hence would have ZERO effect on any combat. Even Missile Deflection only added 8 points.

Without the BS 40 points extra for Regen, I calculate her Combat Rating by the page as 122.2; a far cry from the campaign bustin' 165 points cited earlier in this thread.

As I said previously, these programs are basically worthless.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 01:05 PM

I'd like to see a 350 pt character from Ki'rin that is useful in combat and not "game unbalancing". I think all characters in one regard or another are.

Shardik and The Greek are two good examples of that. :)

I'll do better than that. I'll give you guidelines that I know work for an +infinite+ number of characters, and at the same time allows you to taylor things to the style of your campaign.

Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in 4ed.

Then add to it the concept that combat balanced characters do close to the same amount of Expected Damage per Turn. Then add to that the idea that combat balanced characters have close to the same Expected Character Survivability.

This results in two 3D graphs based on SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign Average defense), both of which are modified by movement ability. Any character within the 3D "blob" defined by the extremes of allowable SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign average defense) + movement modifiers is a "fair" character. Any outside are "unfair". Any on an edge may need further testing.

When in doubt, additionally use a combat simulator to run experiments.

AliceTheOwl

Apr 25th, '05, 01:24 PM

Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in 4ed.
Is there an alternative source, for those of us not fortunate enough to stumble across Hero until after Fifth had come out?

Super Squirrel

Apr 25th, '05, 01:30 PM

I just looked more closely at that Combat Ratings page, and noted that her Regeneration raises her Combat Rating by 40 points despite the fact it takes an hour to work and hence would have ZERO effect on any combat. Even Missile Deflection only added 8 points.

Without the BS 40 points extra for Regen, I calculate her Combat Rating by the page as 122.2; a far cry from the campaign bustin' 165 points cited earlier in this thread.

As I said previously, these programs are basically worthless.
Where do you calculate the Combat Rating from Trebuchet?

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 01:35 PM

I just looked more closely at that Combat Ratings page, and noted that her Regeneration raises her Combat Rating by 40 points despite the fact it takes an hour to work and hence would have ZERO effect on any combat. Even Missile Deflection only added 8 points.

Without the BS 40 points extra for Regen, I calculate her Combat Rating by the page as 122.2; a far cry from the campaign bustin' 165 points cited earlier in this thread.

As I said previously, these programs are basically worthless.

40 pts? It only raised it 2.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 01:36 PM

Where do you calculate the Combat Rating from Trebuchet?

here:

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

It's been a LONG time since I used this. It's been changed quite a bit from the last time I used this.

I think I even inputted Z'lf stats wrong. Especially after it was explained to me that the hth attack listed on the character sheet was not supposed to be usable with her martial arts.

Super Squirrel

Apr 25th, '05, 01:43 PM

That's a nice sight. :D

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 01:44 PM

Ok. Did another spin with that CR html script someone wrote along time ago.

Here is the numbers and here is what I used to obtain them.

OR=46 + DR=31 + MR=41. Big mistake I did was on regen.

Total = 118. Like most programs, garbage in garbage out.

I used 16ocv, 16dcv, 10dc, attacks 4 (hth, ma, nnd, eb), 9spd, 10", 4 movement powers (significant leap, run, tp, swim), 12/8 pd/ed, 29 stun, 45 in missile reflect and it should only be 1 bod for the regen.

Now treb, are those numbers now reflective of what your character can do?

And don't dismiss this chart so easily. Like hero, it takes awhile to figure out how to input the data correctly. I have found this a most USEFUL tool in comparing relative combat efficiencies of character from what was put down on paper.

You just have to do it right. :)

Which means my brick would definitely eat your lunch. ;)

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 01:59 PM

40 pts? It only raised it 2.Oops! YOu're right; my bad. I had incorrectly assumed that, like most of the other Power numbers, it was based on the total Active Points of the Regeneration, not on the BODY regenerated per time interval.

Silly me for assuming the program would be consistent. :slap:

Hugh Neilson

Apr 25th, '05, 02:02 PM

Bring new arguments and points to the discussion and it will cease being pointless. The entire point of this thread was how difficult it is to evaluate characters in combat based simply on points. If nothing else, new players and GMs can learn this is more art than science.

The debate over Z'lf's effectiveness would seem to highlight the difficulty of this evalation. To Ki-Rin, she's grossly overpowered for EVERY champions game he's ever seen. To others, she's a perfectly valid character. No one's called her a wimp yet, but I've seen games where DEF 30-35 is the norm, which would make her prety ineffectual, at least as a straight up combatant.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 02:05 PM

Oops! YOu're right; my bad. I had incorrectly assumed that, like most of the other Power numbers, it was based on the total Active Points of the Regeneration, not on the BODY regenerated per time interval.

Silly me for assuming the program would be consistent. :slap:

Don't worry.

I DID THE EXACT SAME THING.

Like I said. Work with the program. Run multiple characters thru it. See how the numbers come out BEFORE you so off-handedly dismiss it.

Unfortunately, I don't remember who actually created it.

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 02:06 PM

The debate over Z'lf's effectiveness would seem to highlight the difficulty of this evalation. To Ki-Rin, she's grossly overpowered for EVERY champions game he's ever seen. To others, she's a perfectly valid character. No one's called her a wimp yet, but I've seen games where DEF 30-35 is the norm, which would make her prety ineffectual, at least as a straight up combatant.

Exactly! Which is why I usually run characters thru this page at creation. I am just very, very rusty in using it.

Practice makes perfect.

Super Squirrel

Apr 25th, '05, 02:08 PM

Null kind of reminds me of the problem discussed here. Null has a 16d6 Electromagnetic Pulse attack. Three charges and a not so decent OCV makes this very ineffective to pull off. But if the right circumstances come up, this attack can pack a huge punch.

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 02:10 PM

Ok. Did another spin with that CR html script someone wrote along time ago.

Here is the numbers and here is what I used to obtain them.

OR=46 + DR=31 + MR=41. Big mistake I did was on regen.

Total = 118. Like most programs, garbage in garbage out.

I used 16ocv, 16dcv, 10dc, attacks 4 (hth, ma, nnd, eb), 9spd, 10", 4 movement powers (significant leap, run, tp, swim), 12/8 pd/ed, 29 stun, 45 in missile reflect and it should only be 1 bod for the regen.

Now treb, are those numbers now reflective of what your character can do?

Which means my brick would definitely eat your lunch. ;)I would have used 17 OCV/15 DCV to reflect the Sacrifice Strike bonuses and penalties (+1/-2) and 3 movement Powers (TP is essentially meaningless since it's slower than her Running Half Move), but we're quibbling over trivia at this point. And as my buddy Blackjack observed, we're not just about combat. Any evaluation of a character's overall usefulness and effectiveness in any campaign has to take in factors like non-combat Skills.

As to your last question, I guess I'd have to ask "Reflective of what?" I've admitted she's a good combatant; but she's certainly not unbalanced in our campaign. I don't doubt your brick could beat her. Heck, I thought that MA you posted early in this thread (Black Lotus?) would give her a darn good fight (SPD 7, 38 DEX IIRC) and he was loaded with non-combat Skills. I guess since your brick could beat Zl'f, he must be unbalanced too, at least according to some. :D

Force

Apr 25th, '05, 02:21 PM

I would have used 17 OCV/15 DCV to reflect the Sacrifice Strike bonuses and penalties (+1/-2) and 3 movement Powers (TP is essentially meaningless since it's slower than her Running Half Move), but we're quibbling over trivia at this point. And as my buddy Blackjack observed, we're not just about combat. Any evaluation of a character's overall usefulness and effectiveness in any campaign has to take in factors like non-combat Skills.

As to your last question, I guess I'd have to ask "Reflective of what?" I've admitted she's a good combatant; but she's certainly not unbalanced in our campaign. I don't doubt your brick could beat her. Heck, I thought that MA you posted early in this thread (Black Lotus?) would give her a darn good fight (SPD 7, 38 DEX IIRC) and he was loaded with non-combat Skills. I guess since your brick could beat Zl'f, he must be unbalanced too, at least according to some. :D

I thought the only thing unbalancing was the 43dex/9spd/30" movement. However that was only a glance at her character sheet.

Turns out she might have 30" of movment, but she can't do much else with her mp.

This 'guide' that I use (and others) is only to compare the effectiveness of the character in combat as wrote up on the sheet. I don't know what formula's are actually used and I wish I could remember who wrote it.

I know that my brick could beat you (even tho I have not listed his character sheet in this thread), he is a total combat monster. I certainly wouldn't argue that. ;)

I don't know how my ma would handle Z'lf. She is so damn fast! But it would be a good fight according to the calculator, as I believe it would and should be. I think Z'lf would have the edge due to a 9spd, but dice can be kinda tricky. :)

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 02:23 PM

Like I said. Work with the program. Run multiple characters thru it. See how the numbers come out BEFORE you so off-handedly dismiss it.

Unfortunately, I don't remember who actually created it.My problem isn't with this program in particular (although this one has significant flaws in its own right. IIRC it's based on an article on combat ratings from the old Adventurer's Club magazine from 15+ years back.), it's with all such programs. They might have some limited value to evaluate character within a specific campaign, but as a general "My character vs. your character even though we don't play in the same campaign" they're worse than useless. Context is everything.

Ki-Rin thinks Zl'f would be overwhelming, but I think it's fairly obvious his campaign uses markedly lower defenses and CV's than do most of the groups on these boards. That doesn't mean he's wrong; only that it's unrealistic to expect everyone else to conform to his campaign's averages. It can happen even within the same campaign universe. In my recently begun Dark Champions game (played in the same game world as MidGuard) any one of MidGuard's members could whip all three of our 250 point DC characters together. There's just that much difference in power levels and defenses.

Gary

Apr 25th, '05, 02:31 PM

I thought the only thing unbalancing was the 43dex/9spd/30" movement. However that was only a glance at her character sheet.

Turns out she might have 30" of movment, but she can't do much else with her mp.

This 'guide' that I use (and others) is only to compare the effectiveness of the character in combat as wrote up on the sheet. I don't know what formula's are actually used and I wish I could remember who wrote it.

I know that my brick could beat you (even tho I have not listed his character sheet in this thread), he is a total combat monster. I certainly wouldn't argue that. ;)

I don't know how my ma would handle Z'lf. She is so damn fast! But it would be a good fight according to the calculator, as I believe it would and should be. I think Z'lf would have the edge due to a 9spd, but dice can be kinda tricky. :)

Black Lotus is a beast in HTH, but his Achilles heel is a very slow speed. In a straight up fight against Lariat in a steel cage, he'd probably win due to 13 base CV +6 levels. However in a real fight, Lariat can guarantee at least a draw since she has 36" movement and can run away anytime she's low on Stun or End (there's no chance she'll be one punched). Lariat's best strategy would be to stay at a distance and throw large objects such as cars and vans. Black Lotus only has 16 Def, so it won't take many hits to put him out. A very tough matchup. :)

Trebuchet

Apr 25th, '05, 02:47 PM

The debate over Z'lf's effectiveness would seem to highlight the difficulty of this evalation. To Ki-Rin, she's grossly overpowered for EVERY champions game he's ever seen. To others, she's a perfectly valid character. No one's called her a wimp yet, but I've seen games where DEF 30-35 is the norm, which would make her prety ineffectual, at least as a straight up combatant.I'd dispute her being called a wimp in any normal Champions campaign, but there's no denying the fact that against 30+ PD opponents her probability of success in one one one combat drops sharply. Of course, she's part of a team, and in team combat you measure success against other teams, not against individuals. And within the context of a team she holds her own just fine. (Ask Scorpia or Mentalla if they think Zl'f is a wimp, since she put them both down in our epic battle against Eurostar in 2003. Admittedly, Mentalla was already a bit banged up from fighting Thunderbird and Prodigy when Zl'f administered 44 points of damage from a great 10d6 roll to finish the job.) :)

Warp9

Apr 25th, '05, 05:14 PM

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you, and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.
I would say that, if the person designing the character understood what they were doing (it fit with their concept), then 10 or 12 DCs is fine.

In fact, if it was in keeping with the concept of the character's abilities, then designing it anyother way would be wrong.

Not everything has to fit within set DC limits. A soldier carrying a rocket launcher comes to my mind as a different example of a fairly low point character with a very high DC attack.

Active point limits (and/or DC limits) are great for some games, but they are not relevant to all games (IMO).

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ki-rin
Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in _Champions_ 4ed.

Is there an alternative source, for those of us not fortunate enough to stumble across Hero until after Fifth had come out?

Can anyone help Alice and me out here?

Is the blurb "Playing The Numbers" on pS22 of _Champions_ 4ed in any in-print source that anyone knows of?

Agent X

Apr 25th, '05, 07:57 PM

I couldn't take it. I was told about this thread. Ki-Rin has exposed my achille's heal in my resolve not to post on the boards. It drives me nuts when somebody argues from the premise that their campaign should be the baseline that all things are measured by.

Let's all remember that the point where someone's physical stats are superhuman, as far as the Champions Genre book or the CU are concerned, is when they hit 31. Ki-Rin's assumptions about what Cap must be built on are galling to me, not that he doesn't respect the published guidelines and their implications for the Cap build, but that he attempts to make everyone analyze builds from HIS baseline instead of from the PUBLISHED baseline. As for the Hulk, perhaps Ki-Rin doesn't realize that DOJ actually participated in designing the Hulk for Game Trade Magazine. I've seen the stats and Ki-Rin's assumption that Z'lf can easily take the Hulk are hard to take as a result (especially if you're like me and think DOJ's Hulk is a little wimpier than he ought to be).

So here are some of my comments. (I ease my conscience for posting on this board again by reminding myself that I've already mucho dinero on Hero Products even if I hadn't bought any recently.)

Someone has claimed that Zl'f can take out the Hulk. Fortunately for all, someone from DOJ actually wrote up the Hulk for Game Trade Magazine a couple of years ago.

Let's compare, shall we. J

Zl'f's attacks vs. the Hulk's defenses: 35(25)PD, 30(25)ED, 50% Damage Reduction for both. Hulkie's defenses are hardened.

Thrown Object: 6d6 armor piercing will hit almost every time. Average damage of 6 body and 21 stun with hardened defenses countering the armor piercing for NO Stun or Body. Zl'f's maximum of 36 stun, 12 body would do ONE stun and no Body.

Superspeed Strikes
7d6 atttacks with a +1/2 advantage. On average, nothing. None of the advantages that I think Trebuchet can use for the character will help in the least. Maximum Damage Roll would do 3 stun and no body. Okay, so autofire could theoretically do 15 points of stun which Z'lf could do with a 16 OCV vs. Hulk's 6 DCV

Precision Strike
5d6 NND? I'm not sure. I'm thinking the +1/2 value of the NND means the sfx for rigid armor is extremely broad. Perhaps the Hulk's mightily tough form qualifies. If not, Z'lf can do an average of 8.75 stun to Hulkie with a hit.

Catching and Returning Bullets
Means nothing to the kind of objects the Hulk tends to throw. J

Sacrifice Strike
On average. Does NO stun. Well within the likely range though, it would do 1 to 4 stun about half the time.

Martial Strike
On average. No stun. Probably not worth trying to get lucky with a roll.

Legsweep
Won't do anything but knock Hulk down.

Hulk's attacks vs. Z'lf's defenses
Punch will hit on a 6 or less. Not great odds but 4 or 5 swipes and he'll hit once.
42 stun and 14 body. That will knock Z'lf down to -1 stun and daze her to boot. And Z'lf will lose 2 body on average.

Shockwave 10d6 Explosive
Z'lf's overconfident but not stupid. If she's fighting Hulkie she's probably staying about 8 to 15 hexes away depending on favorable or unfavorable circumstances. That means she's not likely to get tagged by this. However, if she does close in to hit the Hulk with her attacks, none of which can do much of anything to 80 Stun 40 Con Hulk, she will be available for such an attack and would be dazed by the attack.

However, I'm thinking with her speed, she's going to try to dance in and dance out, trying to pick the appropriate time to jump in and out. (Trebuchet will try to pick phases that let him go in and tag the Hulk and get out before the Hulk swings.) The problem is that Z'lf's incredible mobility of 30" leaping is matched by Hulkie's incredible mobility of 34" leaping. Not only that but if she is dancing with the Hulk on all of this there is a very good chance the Hulk is fully enraged by the time he gets a bead on Z'lf. At that point, the Hulk is up to a 130 strength. He will, on average, knock Z'lf to -50 stun AND Z'lf will on average lose 14 Body dropping Z'lf down to -2 Body… which is a bad thing.

Of course, this assumes there isn't a nice car or big boulder for the Hulk to pick up while Z'lf is dancing around which allows the frustrated green giant to ignore much of Z'lf's DCV and just hammer her with a "free" affects a hex (or 2) attack.

Z'lf is NO match for the Incredible Hulk. She is, however, built really well to lead him on a merry chase.

And on the Captain America thing…
If we're going to use the Champions Universe as our benchmark for characteristic guidelines and, since Cap is described as having maximum potential human strength, resilience, and agility in the comics, the OHOTMU (which I generally detest), and the MSHRPG - Cap would have a 30 STR, 30 DEX, 30 CON, and a 30 BOD. Oh yeah, he's gonna have a 7 speed too. Cap's OCV and DCV would be Base 10, not this 8 or 9 business (if you accept the Champions Universe standards - which I will accept as a baseline over one person's observations of a handful of campaigns he's run or played in). If he's got the kind of martial arts he's described as having with a couple of skill levels in hand to hand and a couple of skill levels with the shield and an overall combat skill level and an overall skill level - he IS going to hit Z'lf. His PD and ED are going to have a base 15 PD and 15 ED (max human) and he's going to have some protection from his chain mesh AND he's going to have some combat luck AND he's got the FREAKING shield!!! (Not to mention, I'd personally give him the ol' glancing blow/grazing strike damage shield - edit: should read damage reduction not damage shield - with a skill roll limitation.)

On damage, I would have to assume he gets some dice from the shield. It's THE Shield so I'd give it dice equal to a nice club or mace. +4d6 HtH. Cap's got every martial art maneuver he'd want to have so let's give him Offensive Strike… another +4d6. Oh yeah, he's not just a well-rounded martial artist, he's one of the world's best. Let's give him another 2 damage classes. Looks like he's hitting Z'lf for 16 dice. (Yeah, Champions is weird when Cap can throw more damage than the Hulk at baseline. It's just one of those things. Personally, I think Darren Watts should have placed Hulk's baseline strength at 90 anyway.)

Yeah, the cumulative effect of a designing Cap to incorporate all the little things that make him Cap add up in Champions. So?

Bottom line, Z'lf is no match for Captain America OR for the Hulk. Heck, she's going to have a tough time with some published characters. Anybody doubt me? Spend 53 Experience Points in upgrading Morningstar so that he's at the same point level as Z'lf and do a run-through. Raise his defenses to 30 in PD and ED. Raise his speed by one. Raise his Variable Advantage morningstar to +1 advantage or give him skill levels and some movement. He could definitely give her something to worry about. It would be a good tussle.

Z'lf superior or equal to Cap? No
Z'lf superior or equal to Hulk? No
Z'lf superior or equal to Morningstar at 403 points? At least equal, maybe superior depending on what Morningstar's upgrade is like.

Ki-rin

Apr 25th, '05, 08:34 PM

I couldn't take it. I was told about this thread. Ki-Rin has exposed my achille's heal in my resolve not to post on the boards. It drives me nuts when somebody argues from the premise that their campaign should be the baseline that all things are measured by.

Nice to meet you too. :nonp:

Please reread my posts, I made NO such claim or assumption in what I said, and I never do. In fact my STATED big beef with using characters like Lariat and Z'lf in a discussion about general "Creation Philosophy" is that they are NOT typical 350-400 CP characters. They are basically hyper focused Combat Monsters and very efficient ones for their CP at that. That represents a very distinct style of HERO gaming that is not representative of the norm in my experience.

I may compare things to other campaigns I've seen or been in but I -NEVER- have or will "argue from the premise that my campaign should be the baseline that all things are measured by." :straight:

Let's all remember that the point where someone's physical stats are superhuman, as far as the Champions Genre book or the CU are concerned, is when they hit 31.

Ummm, No. "Normal Characteristic Maximum" is called that for exactly that reason: it defines what a "Normal Human" is. That's means 21, not 31, is the beginnings of "Super Human". Else NCM would top out at 30...

Rest of this snipped because the rest of us have moved on already.

As I said, welcome to the discussion.

Agent X

Apr 25th, '05, 10:19 PM

Nice to meet you too. :nonp:

Please reread my posts, I made NO such claim or assumption in what I said, and I never do. In fact my STATED big beef with using characters like Lariat and Z'lf in a discussion about general "Creation Philosophy" is that they are NOT typical 350-400 CP characters. They are basically hyper focused Combat Monsters and very efficient ones for their CP at that. That represents a very distinct style of HERO gaming that is not representative of the norm in my experience.

I may compare things to other campaigns I've seen or been in but I -NEVER- have or will "argue from the premise that my campaign should be the baseline that all things are measured by." :straight:

Ummm, No. "Normal Characteristic Maximum" is called that for exactly that reason: it defines what a "Normal Human" is. That's means 21, not 31, is the beginnings of "Super Human". Else NCM would top out at 30...

Rest of this snipped because the rest of us have moved on already.

As I said, welcome to the discussion. All you do in your posts is use the phrase "in your experience" as if that has some authority. You bring up the best homage of Captain America you could make as if that's proof there is a problem with Z'lf. What if we don't like your homage (which I don't)? Why should this persuade us? Your statement - "The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast" Doesn't matter a whit to many of us. And Sam Bell's builds were not, and are not, official. And Yes! I think your Captain America is design is under-powered AND we are playing the same game, I'm just paying attention to offical suggested characteristic guidelines and building from there w/no preconceived notion of a CV ceiling or a DC ceiling.

Here is another gem: "Multiple methods of analyzing them have been brought to bear and all agree to make that point and still somehow you and Treb persist downplaying just how Combat Monster they are." No, they haven't. You have been very direct about your criticism but Force backed off when he realized he screwed up in using a rating system that has the same flaw as every rating system - it's missing something. It can't take full consideration of synergistic relationships of combinations of powers. Area Affect is something it doesn't know how to deal with too well. Also, most of the posters have DISAGREED with you, so how can you argue that multiple methods of analyzing have concluded the character is a combat monster? The method seems to be your speed + DC that ignores Defenses AND a rating system that plenty of folks have indicated they don't have a whole lot of faith in.

You also toss ad hominem attacks at Treb, his character, and his group directly or through insinuation: Combat Monster, Not Balanced, Treb's Backup Band, Too Nasty, "I'd love to play her in a game where I didn't care about game balance", "the apparently outrageous combat level of MidGuard", "hyper-focused combat monsters", "campaign breakers", "not viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games . You toss all of these ad hominem statements and when Trebuchet is rightfully offended, your tone is undeniably condescending. Plus, you play semantics telling him his character IS a speedster even if he doesn't like it when he's already explained what his criteria for a speedster is. Z'lf doesn't meet that criteria. You don't have any more right to pretend your criteria is any more official than Trebuchet's. This is just another attempt on your part to score a point which is a nonissue. I understand what you think a speedster is and I understand what Treb thinks a speedster is. On top of all that, you misread Treb's character sheet and deign to criticize the character without a careful perusal.

What's this about a Typical Character? Why the heck does Creation Philosophy have to center around Typical Characters? Anyway, show me one that everyone would agree is typical of everyone's campaign. If you mean they have to conform to narrow ceilings and ranges to make you comfortable, I'm glad I don't play in a Campaign that is centered around Typical Characters. This game is designed for experienced players to build Atypical characters that can be played effectively and not upset every story. Trebuchet is just such an experienced player. It's a shame he has to put up with your criticisms because you don't recognize that. I know this is blunt, but you've really been hypercritical for no good reason and everyone has been very polite about their objections to your behavior... and you still didn't get it.

On the NCM remark, you are confusing Supernormal with Superhuman. They are not the same thing. If you don't believe me, ask Aaron Allston, page 58 of Champions Universe table noted as Champions Universe Characteristic Standards: Physical Stats considered Legendary are 21-30. Definition of Legendary and Superhuman: "Beyond Competent is Legendary. Few humans reach this lofty plateau; generally speaking, ordinary people never attain it. Only truly exceptional individuals - heroes and superheroes - have Legendary characteristics. The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of normal human attainment.
At the pinnacle is Superhuman. A character cannot have even a single Characteristic in this range unless superpowers and/or a related explanation (such as magic, mutation, super-technology, or the like) exist."

Normal Character Maximima is the maxima for a normal character. Captain America is not a normal character. He is also not superhuman, at least sometimes, and he is described as being at the maximum potential of what is humanly attainable. That means top scores in Legendary Physical Stats if we use the CU standards as a baseline which seems much more reasonable than using your campaign conventions or someone else's as they simply amount to house rules.

As for the rest of you having moved on, that's funny, I almost instantly received rep and a hearty agreement from a poster on this thread.

Bottom Line:
You ASKED Treb to post his character and then criticized the character in a condescending, graceless manner because it isn't balanced for your game and you assume your game has the authority of being like the vast majority of Champions games. Why? Because of your limited personal experience.
You make broad claims about the need for typical characters for the topic and pronounce Z'lf atypical and thus not worthy of discussion in terms of Creation Philosophy.
You do all this while MISREADING the character sheet. If you're going to after somebody like a pit bull, you should at least give them the courtesy of a thorough read of the character first.
Your Captain America is no more typical than mine and your Captain America doesn't use official characteristic guidelines like mine does.
Your claim that Hulk would get stomped by Z'lf doesn't match up with the official design of the Hulk.
You have misunderstood the definition of Normal Characteristic Maxima, probably for years.
And when you get nailed by details that don't tilt your way, you blithely explain that, "the rest of us have moved on already." Well, I hadn't because I wasn't satisfied with the responses others had made to you. I think they've been far too charitable.
Bottom, Bottom Line: You need to pay attention to what Trebuchet and Mentor are doing because I have. They are playing a very interesting, balanced game that blows away some of your preconceived notions about what a balanced character must look like. That means they know something you don't. As long as you react to the unknown in the way you have on this thread, I fear, you will not ever realize what you are missing. Some of those on these boards are masters. Everybody on these boards is a student. Open your mind and close your "mouth" for a second and take it in before you jump to conclusions and even if you do jump to conclusions, when you discuss them, do it politely. Your bark may make it in your junkyard but you are with the big dogs now.

Sean Waters

Apr 26th, '05, 01:50 AM

I would say that, if the person designing the character understood what they were doing (it fit with their concept), then 10 or 12 DCs is fine.

In fact, if it was in keeping with the concept of the character's abilities, then designing it anyother way would be wrong.

Not everything has to fit within set DC limits. A soldier carrying a rocket launcher comes to my mind as a different example of a fairly low point character with a very high DC attack.

Active point limits (and/or DC limits) are great for some games, but they are not relevant to all games (IMO).

I can't agree here, simply becasue this is a sample character, the only one in the section. Whilst I DO agree that there are clear situations where a significantly over-average DC is fine, I can not accept that this would make a good campaign as a baseline: soldiers CAN carry rocket launchers, but most carry small arms. The 'sample character' in a soldiers campaign would be the one carrying a Lee-Enfield, not the one witht the bazooka.

A campaign where this is a baseline character would be, frankly, silly: it would be like arming all your soldiers with rocket launchers and saying that represents the 'war' genre (an underprepresented genre in Hero, as I've commented before...)

Moreover it is not representative of any genre I have seen: look at most martial arts movies: the protagonists rarely take out even mooks with a single (unarmed) hit: they use sweep and rapid attack and whatever to throw a combination to KO them. Two main characters NEVER fight and one takes the other out with the first punch that lands (again, in unarmed fights: it's different if they are using katanas!). This is not, IMO, a typical character from any genre I have seen, and whilst I do not say it is wrong to build a character like that, I very much contend that it is wrong to hold it up as a typical example of the genre presented in the rule book.

BNakagawa

Apr 26th, '05, 02:09 AM

Re: one hit mooks

Bruce Lee

Sean Waters

Apr 26th, '05, 02:17 AM

There has been some talk of cross campaign comparisons of characters and I have to say I don't think they are often meaningful: not because you can't compare characters from different campaigns but becasue such a comparison is not really that meaningful. Take the various Marvel/DC cross-overs. Who wins in a fight between Hulk and Superman depends on who is writing it and where the story is going. The construction criteria are completely different.

Take Z'lf, for example. I wouldn't allow a lot of the construction and build in a campaign I was running. I think (by my criteria) having your running and leaping as restrainable, presumably because someone could grab your legs is very questionable, and the seperation of DEX and SPD, allowing a lower points total than if you'd bought them together just wouldn't be allowed. However, that is not to say that the character is not completely appropriate in the campaign in which it plays. If you try to cross compare with a campaign I run my player's characters will seem to be underpowered. They are not, they're built to different guidelines.

Indeed you could say that, compared to the characters in my campaign the characters in the main rule book are underpowered: my lot would probably beat them in a straight fight 8 out of 10: but then that is the point I started the thread on - the characters are not 'wrong' or badly constructed: for the purpose, which is, to my mind to have an enjoyable game balancing role playing and combat, they are probably superior to the characters I have got into the habit of constructing.

The other thing about comparing characters is this: if character A is a 20 STR martial artist with 10 CV, 12DC attacks and resistant defences and half a dozen modes of movement and lack of weakness, flash defence and mental defence, and character B has strength drain 3d6 and 14 CV, a similar speed and damn all else then my money is on character 2 no matter what the theoretical difference in relative power and utility is, at least in a straight fight. Power comparison is a useful tool ON AVERAGE - i.e. if you have to fight 100 different opponents it will likely give an accurate idea of where you will come in the overall order of things, but is can be completely meaningless when you compare one character against another.

In other words, I think the power comparison programmes are good to show whether a character is appropriate for a particular campaign but (generally) of vey limited utility in comparing two individuals.

To an extent it is like IQ tests: if you know how they work, you can get better at doing them, even though your IQ is not actually improving, but over a population they are a good indicator of relative ability.

Sean Waters

Apr 26th, '05, 02:24 AM

Re: one hit mooks

Bruce Lee

No, I don't agree.

There are those special tense-up single punches (probably pushed haymakers and done as part of a presence attack to get a bonus against the rest of the mooks), and you occasionally get neck-breakings, but they are targetted killing attacks, and not the usual combat manouvres but generally even Bruce hits more than once: you may have to go through the DVD frame by frame to see it, but the kick to the head hit the crotch and abdomen on the way up!

Even Bruce doesn't take out (major competent martial arts) villains with a single punch or kick though. There is always the softening up blows, the falling through bits of scenery and then the final killer-strike against a weakened opponent, and probably using push again to make sure that it really stings...built the way the chap in the book is, the first character to miss a block would be down.

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 03:25 AM

In fact my STATED big beef with using characters like Lariat and Z'lf in a discussion about general "Creation Philosophy" is that they are NOT typical 350-400 CP characters. They are basically hyper focused Combat Monsters and very efficient ones for their CP at that. That represents a very distinct style of HERO gaming that is not representative of the norm in my experience.I discussed Zl'f as a specific counter to the thread's opening (and, I believe, incorrect) premise that a "one hit" character cannot be viable in a campaign. I posted her because you asked me to, only to come under fire because she doesn't fit your narrow view of what constitutes a valid character design. And if you really think she's a "hyper focused combat monster" (your term), I'm telling you flat out you're wrong. She's a powerful and effective character, just as you'd expect from a 403 point PC with many years of both game and real-time experience, and I've never claimed otherwise, but she is most certainly not overly powerful in comparison to her teammates or the opponents we routinely face. And THAT is ultimately the only benchmark that matters. It may have slipped past you during all the din of battle, but the two other GMs in my campaign who have also posted in this thread (Blackjack and Mentor) are also fellow players in our campaign. They've seen Zl'f in action from both sides of the GM's screen. If THEY are not bothered by Zl'f's prowess in combat, I submit that YOU have no grounds with which to criticize either Zl'f or her campaign. You have no standing before this court, so to speak. Your criticisms are not only sadly misguided and laughably incorrect, but quite frankly irrelevant.

And no, our campaign may not be entirely typical. That's unfortunate in a way, because I believe we have an excellent campaign and some others might do well to emulate us. Given some of the crappy Champions campaigns I've both played in and read about in my 22+ years of Champions gaming, I can only regret there aren't more games out there of our campaign's caliber. Our campaign is now entering its 13th year (most "campaigns" last one to two years), and far from having to scrounge up anybody who will play to fill vacant seats we have a waiting list to get in to our game (We've already selected our next player, but I don't foresee another opening for at least a year). I'm not saying our campaign is perfect; but I think we'd probably stack up reasonably well against anybody's campaign. Most importantly, we're having fun with interesting characters and challenging villains. When you get right down to it that's all that really matters.

Ki-rin

Apr 26th, '05, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Ki-rin
Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in 4ed.

Is there an alternative source, for those of us not fortunate enough to stumble across Hero until after Fifth had come out?

*sigh* 4ed is Out of Print, and Steve Long has verified that this is not in print anywhere. So I did some legal checking regarding "Fair Use"...
I present pS22 of Champions 4ed...

It's possible, of course, to play a Champions campaign without any limits on the power level of the characters. However such a campaign will likely sport grossly unbalanced characters: some will put all of their points in a single omnipotent attack, or an impregnable defense. It will be impossible for the players designing their PC's to know what is considered a "good defense" or "a great Strength." Hence it is usually a good idea to set limits on the amount of damage each character can do, and the defenses each character can have. You will also limit each character's Dex and SPD.

When determining the actual limits, there are several things to remember. Each 1d6 of normal damage does an average of 3.5 STUN; this costs 5 Active Points. If the GM sets the campaigns's average defenses at 3x the maximum number of (normal) attack dice, then such an attack will only do .5 STUN per die, on the average. Thus in a campaign with limits of 10d6 attacks (50 Active Points) and 30 defenses, an attacker could only expect to inflict .5 STUN per attack. At this rate combat would last forever. The PCs would abandon normal attacks for Armor Piercing Attacks, Killing Attacks, and No Normal Defense Attacks-all in an attempt to do effective damage.

On the opposite extreme, the GM could set the average defenses at 1x the maximum attack dice. Thus, in a campaign with maximum attacks of 10d6 and average defenses of 10, the average attacker would inflict 25 STUN per attack. At this rate, there is an overwhelming advantage for attacking first, because any attack that hits will do tremendous damage to the target. An average roll will Stun many characters, and most will go down after only 2 hits. Character will try to get a high DCV, because the only good defense is not getting hit.

A good rule of thumb: The average defense should run about 2 times the maximum attack (in normal dice), and have a maximum of 2.5 times the maximum attack. Thus a 10d6 campaign might have an average defense of 20 and a maximum defense of 25. Similarly, a 12d6 campaign might have an average defense of 24 and a maximum of 30. Characters with low DCVs can be allowed to have the highest defenses, while the characters with high DCVs should have defenses near the bottom.

The character's maximum SPD helps define the character's relationship with the world around him. Heroes who are much slower than their counterparts have fewer chances to act, and will be able to do less in combat. As a general rule, SPDs should be kept within 3 points of each other; they could range from 3-6, 4-7, etc.

When setting limits on Dex and CV, you are deciding how easily the character will hit others and be hit himself. Of course, there are several things to consider. A defender that has a DCV advantage of 4 or more over the attacker will only be hit one time in six. Thus, the range between the highest Dex and the lowest Dex should rarely be greater than 4 points of CV. In a low-Dex campaign, the Dex could range from 15-27 (base CV 5-9), averaging 20; in a high DEX campaign Dex could range from 20-34 (base CV 7-11), averaging 26.

Notice however, what happens to the heroes in each type of campaign. Assume that a well-trained agent has a Dex of 15. In a low Dex campaign, the agent has a -2 chance to the hit the average hero; he will hit one time out of 3. That same agent attacking the average hero in a high-Dex campaign will be -4, and will only have a one in six chance of hitting. In the low-Dex campaign agents can be effective while in the high-Dex one they are probably just an exercise in dice rolling.

The GM should carefully consider each of these values when setting limits for the campaign. The lower the limits, the closer the heroes will be to "normal" people; higher limits will raise the capabilities of the character. This will have a tremendous impact on the way the character affects the world and the flavor of the campaign.

Average Champions campaign
According to survey data, the average Champions character has the following stats:
Average Main Attack: 11d6
Average total PD or ED: 25
Average DEX 23
Average SPD 5.5

-----End of pS22, _Champions_ 4ed-----

LEGALESE: This is an excerpt from an out of print book that represents ~1/340 of that book's contents. Research has not found any in print source of this material. By the terms of Fair Use, this material is provided for Academic and Research use only and can not be used for any commercial gain without first explicitly negotiating commercial Use Rights with the current holder of the copyright on said material.

*tired typist with RSI nurses sore hands*

Sean Waters

Apr 26th, '05, 03:47 AM

I discussed Zl'f as a specific counter to the thread's opening (and, I believe, incorrect) premise that a "one hit" character cannot be viable in a campaign. I posted her because you asked me to, only to come under fire because she doesn't fit your narrow view of what constitutes a valid character design. .

...but I'm sure you'd agree that Zl'f (sorry, I keep getting the apostrophe wrong!) is not a typical character design example. My presmise is that the examples in the book should give guidance as to how to build a typical character for that sort of campaign.

Zl'f works because she rarely gets hit and can recover so quickly if she does that she gets back into the fight immediatly: as such she is hardly a fair example of a character that takes one hit and is out of the fight comletely, but works anyway. The example in the book I was complaining about did fit into that category. Your defence is a propensity to avoid damage and lightning-quick recovery if you do take it. The character in the book has NO defence to speak of, just a whacking great attack, almost the opposite of Zl'f. I can't see how THAT kind of character is realistically sustainable.

Gary

Apr 26th, '05, 03:52 AM

Ki-Rin's mistake was attacking Zl'f. Lariat and Black Lotus are the ones who can be accused of being combat monsters and far more powerful than other characters of similar point levels without overall Limitations. :D

Hugh Neilson

Apr 26th, '05, 05:05 AM

Ummm, No. "Normal Characteristic Maximum" is called that for exactly that reason: it defines what a "Normal Human" is. That's means 21, not 31, is the beginnings of "Super Human". Else NCM would top out at 30...

Exactly. Normal characteristic maxima defines what a NORMAL human is. 21 is the beginning of "Above the range for a NORMAL human". A person who has achieved the maximum human potential can no longer be described as a NORMAL human. He is beyond exceptional. The range for humans who exceed the norm dramatically, the exceptional, but not Super, human is 21-30. 31+ is Superhuman.

If 20 were absolute human maximum - the pinnacle of human potential - NCM would prohibit statistics above this level. It does not - it simply doubles their cost, indicating that individuals who have achieved such a level are rare, maybe in the extreme, but far from impossible.

I would not classify Cap as a normal human. He is not superhuman, but neither is he normal. He is a human whose potential has ben (artificially) maximized. As such, he should not have NCM.

Ki-rin

Apr 26th, '05, 05:39 AM

*reads second post by AgentX that tells me to FOAD with consternation*

OK, enough is enough.

I couldn't take it. I was told about this thread. Ki-Rin has exposed my achille's heal in my resolve not to post on the boards...

Utter Bull Sh*t. You evidently like instigating flame wars.

If you notice where I've been spending my time, you'll see I haven't >gotten< to making any further responses to Mike or Trebuchet. I've been kind of busy trying to add real value to the main topic of this thread, and I do have a real life that I'm juggling while participating around here.

I had already apologized to Trebuchet for the mistakes I had made in analyzing Zl'f (I also apologize for the persistent miss-spelling on my part of "Zl'f" Treb. Thanks Sean.) and had made it quite clear that Lariat was considerably worse. I have not analyzed Black Lotus, so I have made no comments as to that character.

If I could have, I would have responded as reasonably as possible to their posts that I had not yet. You've pretty much made that impossible. You've also removed any incentive I may have had to go back and politely respond to your points or examples in detail.

As to the worth or not of my experience:
Like some others around here, I've been gaming for ~3 decades and have done so across almost every RP system or group of gamers with any unique idea or two that I could find. I've been fortunate enough to know >some< of the very talented folks that have created this hobby for the rest of us to pursue well enough to seriously pick their brains on game design and related topics. ...I'm also HEAVY duty comics, fantasy, and sci fi weenie. My library literally fills my basement and a serious chunk of my house with auxiliary off-site storage. My references to the scope of my experience are no less important or more trivial than anyone else around here who has such credentials.

Until you started posting here we were all trying to be reasonably civilized and logical about whatever disagreements existed between us. Both Treb and I had done our parts to nip the (+considerably+ more subtle and sophisticated) only other attempt at causing trouble than yours in the bud.

EDIT: oh, and Treb and I are both Grown Ups. We were dealing with our disagreements reasonably well without your "help". Given the change in the tone of his posts since your first salvo, that may be all over, and that's truely unfortunate. IME, Treb, Fox1, Oddhat and many others around here with strong opinions are worth any discussion and know how to defend their POV without indulging in bear-baiting or flame wars even when they are involved in a disagreement. That's a valuable skill you have not shown in this thread thus far.

The flames had cooled and died down around here until you decided to add petrol and vitrol to them. That's what "the rest of us have moved on" meant. I was being polite in responding to a post that was ENTIRELY an Ad Hominem attack (gee some of the rest of us recognize both Latin and violations of the rules of formal debate... ...BTW this isn't a formal debate. It's supposedly a friendly discussion.), so don't even pretend you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on. Any sh*t storm that results should be accepted by you as justly being at least 50% your responsibility.

Contrary to your misuse of the term, I have not yet made any Ad Hominem attacks in this thread.

(*anger indulged*)
:mad: So here's my first Ad Hominem attack of this thread:
You clearly are so intellectually or psychologically Broken that you get your jollys by tossing gasoline and dynamite around.

Go find some vasoline + some sand + a pointy stick for your nether regions. :mad:
(*end anger indulged*)

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 06:15 AM

...but I'm sure you'd agree that Zl'f (sorry, I keep getting the apostrophe wrong!) is not a typical character design example. My presmise is that the examples in the book should give guidance as to how to build a typical character for that sort of campaign.

Zl'f works because she rarely gets hit and can recover so quickly if she does that she gets back into the fight immediatly: as such she is hardly a fair example of a character that takes one hit and is out of the fight comletely, but works anyway. The example in the book I was complaining about did fit into that category. Your defence is a propensity to avoid damage and lightning-quick recovery if you do take it. The character in the book has NO defence to speak of, just a whacking great attack, almost the opposite of Zl'f. I can't see how THAT kind of character is realistically sustainable.I concur that the super examples in 5er are not particularly efficient in design. (To be honest, I'd never even given them more than a passing glance until last night; when I examined them in more detail.) But I still think my point is valid in a larger sense: The provided characters illustrate construction within a rather narrow set of design parameters, and those parameters were probably along the lines set forth in that section from 4e Ki-rin was kind enough to transcribe above (As someone who hates typing, I can only commiserate with anyone who copies such a large passage verbatim, especially someone with RSI.). Those parameters set up reasonably efficient and roughly equal characters which are ideal for beginning players and GMs, and prevent any individual character from unbalancing the game too badly with a novice GM who doesn't yet know how to calculate probable game balance. And if a campaign adopts those guidelines they probably won't get too far off track. (The sheer number of "Help! How do I balance the characters in my campaign?" threads give a pretty good clue that this is still one of Hero's most vexing problems for novice GMs.)

But those guidelines also cut off a large number of potentially interesting and valid character designs, just as forbidding any Stop or ! Powers and Talents in a campaign will. When you do that you instantly lose a considerable portion of the advantages of using a "toolkit" system like Hero. Our group, and many others, are not novices to the system. We're reasonably adept at evaluating balance issues beforehand. Zl'f is a concept that would be nearly impossible to construct with those guidelines in place, and I'm sure there are many other interesting concepts out there that also could not be built within such narrow parameters. I wouldn't recommend running such a character in most campaigns, for she's far too fragile. Running her takes a lot of system knowledge and attention, because she only needs to make one little mistake to take a nap. She generally spends three or four Phases each Turn avoiding attacks, meaning her effective SPD is closer to 5 or 6. She's traded off higher defenses for difficulty to hit. It's a fairly successful strategy, but it required her to be built "outside the box." (My first and probably equally effective character, Ranger, reversed the paradigm and went with very low SPD (4) and DEX (20) but compensated by having very high defenses (62 PD/58 ED); which made him by far the slowest and clumsiest PC on our team. I played him exactly the opposite of how I play Zl'f: Ranger never ducked or Blocked; he just took the hit and counterattacked.)

Ki-rin

Apr 26th, '05, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Super Squirrel
I'd like to see a 350 pt character from Ki'rin that is useful in combat and not "game unbalancing". I think all characters in one regard or another are.

I'll do better than that. I'll give you guidelines that I know work for an +infinite+ number of characters, and at the same time allows you to taylor things to the style of your campaign.

Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in 4ed.

Then add to it the concept that combat balanced characters do close to the same amount of Expected Damage per Turn. Then add to that the idea that combat balanced characters have close to the same Expected Character Survivability.

This results in two 3D graphs based on SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign Average defense), both of which are modified by movement ability. Any character within the 3D "blob" defined by the extremes of allowable SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign average defense) + movement modifiers is a "fair" character. Any outside are "unfair". Any on an edge may need further testing.

When in doubt, additionally use a combat simulator to run experiments.

Now for some practical advice on _using_ this stuff.

Treb has said that Zl'f could not have been built under the sort of restrictions that the original "Playing The Numbers" 4ed blurb gave. That's sort of true and sort of not.

My POV is that given enough CP and using an INTELLIGENT version of guidelines like those in "Playing The Numbers", a campaign balanced version of any of the "combat monsters" posted in this thread could be made.

The first design issue with characters like Zl'f is that Dex and SPD are expensive. Granted they are valuable for the expense, but their CP cost is high enough that one needs a big CP budget just to consider concepts like Zl'f in a playable manner. Str and Con remain by far the most CP efficient buys in HERO and concepts that rely on other stats for efficacy are going to require a larger minimum CP budget to be viable. This may be one reason why DOJ raised the standard CP budget for supers in 5ed.

I've got to go play with some numbers and create some examples. I'll edit this post as I get results.

We're going to define a design space and then explore guidelines for 3 characters:
A= Average Hero- who lies as close to the exact center of the design space as possible.
B= BBrick- guess
C= Ao'u, Zl'f's son and an even more extreme version of the same idea she is.

Sean Waters

Apr 26th, '05, 07:50 AM

First off I love the acronym 'FOAD': it's so versatile and you can use it in front of (less inquisitive) children. :D

Second I'm not criticising 'Z'l'f' (one of them will be right!): the character is not one (as written) I'd be happy allowing a player to use in the campaign I'm running. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the build or the way she is played (I'm not going into cases over my build concerns: this is neither the place or the time, and, as I said in a post above, in your campaign with your group I'm sure that the character is appropriate.)

What I am saying is that she is a complex build using a lot of limitations and structures that would confuse a player new to the system. I'm also saying that, even though I'm guilty of exactly the same thing to other degrees, the sort of character build in the book, specifically quite low defences and not particularly difficult to hit is not a bad idea if you find that combats rattle on rather too long. If it is not a problem you certainly don't need a solution :)

To an extent my point is also that we have become to efficient in our character design: we are moving away from the straightforward to the far more esoteric. Using the characters in teh book I could build a Z'lf-like character that could compete (well, higher speed, lower defences and attacks, considerably higher CV...

Z'lf's complexity (richness, perhaps?) is necessitated by 'efficiency' in others...the players and GM in your group: of this I have little doubt: this is why a character in a campaign context can never really by considered 'wrong', but I do question whether that sort of richness is really necessary to enjoy the game? I don't think it is, and I was suggesting that building 'inefficient' characters may enhance the game experience, if it is done appropriately and consistently. The advantage of inefficiency is that it leaves plenty of space to colour in important details, and leaves the big issue of character creation and development as a reasonable manageable issue.

In short it is far easier to create an inefficient design, but, in play, inefficient design does not adversely effect the experience. Efficient design is necessitated by efficient design.

Anyway total points:

I've noticed (in myself) a quite different design philosophy with 350 pointers than 250 pointers: in a nutshell it is this: I can build a pretty useful brick for 250 points, on 350 points I always end up with extra I need to slot in somewhere (he'll wind up with teleport or desolid or scads of life support or up speed and DEX considerably...). You could just make a 350 point brick more 'bricky', but you quickly run into campaign limits if you're not careful and wind up having to expand sideways... On 250 points, energy blasters are (relatively) difficult to build, on 350 points they come into their own...

Maybe it's just me, but the points do seem to have made a difference not just in power levels (my 350 point bricks aren't that much more powerful than my 250 point ones) but in the character concepts that can be made to work.

Force

Apr 26th, '05, 07:57 AM

Ki-Rin's mistake was attacking Zl'f. Lariat and Black Lotus are the ones who can be accused of being combat monsters and far more powerful than other characters of similar point levels without overall Limitations. :D

Exactly why I posted Black Lotus. Very few powers taken with limitations (basically the costume) and built using 'efficient' numbers. Black Lotus's xp has been spent on the +4 hth and +2 overall skill levels.

My character has taken some skills to show the characters background. Basically a vigilante type.

A discussion involving those character builds should prove to be interesting as I think they (hopefully) goto the topic of this thread.

So how many folks would have a problem allowing this character in their campaign?

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 08:11 AM

I've noticed (in myself) a quite different design philosophy with 350 pointers than 250 pointers: in a nutshell it is this: I can build a pretty useful brick for 250 points, on 350 points I always end up with extra I need to slot in somewhere (he'll wind up with teleport or desolid or scads of life support or up speed and DEX considerably...). You could just make a 350 point brick more 'bricky', but you quickly run into campaign limits if you're not careful and wind up having to expand sideways... On 250 points, energy blasters are (relatively) difficult to build, on 350 points they come into their own...

Maybe it's just me, but the points do seem to have made a difference not just in power levels (my 350 point bricks aren't that much more powerful than my 250 point ones) but in the character concepts that can be made to work.That's one of the main reasons we finally dumped caps in our campaign: If there's damage, SPD, DEX, and defense caps in place everyone tends to first push up against those caps and only then do they start making their character more of an archtype by tacking on "candy" Powers and Skills. When the "bricks" and "EB's" have the same SPD, DEX, PD/ED and DCs in combat the difference becomes more one of sfx than type. That's particularly true with 350 point characters who often can reach the caps and still have 100-125 points left over. (Heck, I could build a version of Zl'f with the same SPD and DEX and no Limitations on either. 43 DEX & 9 SPD raw cost only 136 CP; leaving 214 points for the other abilities. She'd have far fewer Skills and candy Powers, but she'd still be quite recognizable. Just as an experiment, I recently built a version of her which totally dumps the MP, but which otherwise leaves her intact. I kept the Running and Leaping, the rest of it I just dropped.)

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 08:13 AM

Exactly why I posted Black Lotus. Very few powers taken with limitations (basically the costume) and built using 'efficient' numbers. Black Lotus's xp has been spent on the +4 hth and +2 overall skill levels.

My character has taken some skills to show the characters background. Basically a vigilante type.

A discussion involving those character builds should prove to be interesting as I think they (hopefully) goto the topic of this thread.

So how many folks would have a problem allowing this character in their campaign?*raises hand*

Me. But that's only because he steps on Zl'f's schtick. Were I running another type of character, I'd have no trouble with Black Lotus in our game.

Force

Apr 26th, '05, 08:24 AM

*raises hand*

Me. But that's only because he steps on Zl'f's schtick. Were I running another type of character, I'd have no trouble with Black Lotus in our game.

Wow. I should come play with you guys. Of course I have not played champs for 10(?) years. I don't think I step to hard on your schtick, but that is not the point I was trying to make.

Would gm's (in general) have problems with characters that are still built on concept but built using 'efficient' numbers. Or is that a mute point with 350pts being the norm?

Lot's of folks in my neck of the woods had problems when I had built this character in a 250pt campaign...

Sean Waters

Apr 26th, '05, 08:31 AM

Trebuchet: I only have 5ed not 5ER with me, so I can't recall: your variable advantage 4d6 Hand Attack: can you add bonuses past +4d6 if they come from (for example) martial arts. I didn't think so, but I could be wrong with the weird stuff you can do with HA these days...

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 08:36 AM

Trebuchet: I only have 5ed not 5ER with me, so I can't recall: your variable advantage 4d6 Hand Attack: can you add bonuses past +4d6 if they come from (for example) martial arts. I didn't think so, but I could be wrong with the weird stuff you can do with HA these days...No, the HA attacks cannot be added to her martial arts maneuvers (barring explicit GM permission, which I would not seek.). IDHMBIFOM, so I'm not sure of the page reference. This may be covered in the FAQ's (new or old). So she can do either her martial maneuvers or her 7d6 w/+½ Advantage, but not both simultaneously. Does that answer your question?

Hyper-Man

Apr 26th, '05, 10:53 AM

No, the HA attacks cannot be added to her martial arts maneuvers (barring explicit GM permission, which I would not seek.). IDHMBIFOM, so I'm not sure of the page reference. This may be covered in the FAQ's (new or old). So she can do either her martial maneuvers or her 7d6 w/+½ Advantage, but not both simultaneously. Does that answer your question?

I was going to ask you this same question Treb.

I haven't researched 5E and the old FAQ yet but as far as I can tell with regards to 5ER and the current FAQ you CAN add both and I did not see any GM permission requirement. Regardless if this is correct or not, you obviously don't need to change anything numbers wise since the build works fine as is in your campaign. However, you might want to make note of that declared restriction on the character sheet to avoid further confusion when posting the character here.

Confusion on damage adding rules is one reason I purposely avoided any Combat Levels or Martial Arts for Hyper-Man the character (see 2nd link below).

HM

Warp9

Apr 26th, '05, 11:31 AM

I can't agree here, simply becasue this is a sample character, the only one in the section. Whilst I DO agree that there are clear situations where a significantly over-average DC is fine, I can not accept that this would make a good campaign as a baseline: soldiers CAN carry rocket launchers, but most carry small arms. The 'sample character' in a soldiers campaign would be the one carrying a Lee-Enfield, not the one witht the bazooka.

A campaign where this is a baseline character would be, frankly, silly: it would be like arming all your soldiers with rocket launchers and saying that represents the 'war' genre (an underprepresented genre in Hero, as I've commented before...)

Since I don't have the book where the sample is taken from, I can't really agrue to much about specifics involved in the case, so I'll go along with you on that one.

However, I guess that all this amounts to is my general reaction to the situation as a whole. I feel that trying to take control over DCs and active points is not necessary (at least for some of us). And I'm concerned that the practice can lead to "vanilla style" characters.

tesuji

Apr 26th, '05, 11:45 AM

A question for both force and gary, re their lotus and lariat character designs..

your campaign doesn't use the usual focus breakage rules, right?

Both of you have 8-9 pt focus armor and under book rules that would be automatically hit by any attack that hit you and would be "outside" of other defenses and so would break for instance if a 10d6 Eb hit you and did 10 body, vanishing in a puff of disbelief.

or are they just used for "first hit padding"?

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 12:10 PM

I was going to ask you this same question Treb.

I haven't researched 5E and the old FAQ yet but as far as I can tell with regards to 5ER and the current FAQ you CAN add both and I did not see any GM permission requirement. Regardless if this is correct or not, you obviously don't need to change anything numbers wise since the build works fine as is in your campaign. However, you might want to make note of that declared restriction on the character sheet to avoid further confusion when posting the character here.

Confusion on damage adding rules is one reason I purposely avoided any Combat Levels or Martial Arts for Hyper-Man the character (see 2nd link below).An excellent idea, HM, and I have done so. It's now:

Superspeed Strikes: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Does not add to MA maneuvers (+0), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4)

I've also added Lack of Weakness to the defenses versus her Precision Strike 5d6 NND.

I'll try to find the relevant rules this evening when I have access to my books.

OddHat

Apr 26th, '05, 12:18 PM

An excellent idea, HM, and I have done so. It's now:

Superspeed Strikes: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Does not add to MA maneuvers (+0), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4)

I've also added Lack of Weakness to the defenses versus her Precision Strike 5d6 NND.

I'll try to find the relevant rules this evening when I have access to my books.

The UMA page cite is in one of my posts up thread a bit.

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 12:22 PM

The UMA page cite is in one of my posts up thread a bit.Yes, but is there a relevent cite in FREd, 5er, or the FAQs for those who don't have UMA?

OddHat

Apr 26th, '05, 12:35 PM

Yes, but is there a relevent cite in FREd, 5er, or the FAQs for those who don't have UMA?

Can't find it in 5thER, either in the HA description or the Adding Damage section. It may take a FAQ search.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 12:41 PM

*sigh* 4ed is Out of Print, and Steve Long has verified that this is not in print anywhere. So I did some legal checking regarding "Fair Use"...
I present pS22 of Champions 4ed...

It's possible, of course, to play a Champions campaign without any limits on the power level of the characters. However such a campaign will likely sport grossly unbalanced characters: some will put all of their points in a single omnipotent attack, or an impregnable defense. It will be impossible for the players designing their PC's to know what is considered a "good defense" or "a great Strength." Hence it is usually a good idea to set limits on the amount of damage each character can do, and the defenses each character can have. You will also limit each character's Dex and SPD.

When determining the actual limits, there are several things to remember. Each 1d6 of normal damage does an average of 3.5 STUN; this costs 5 Active Points. If the GM sets the campaigns's average defenses at 3x the maximum number of (normal) attack dice, then such an attack will only do .5 STUN per die, on the average. Thus in a campaign with limits of 10d6 attacks (50 Active Points) and 30 defenses, an attacker could only expect to inflict .5 STUN per attack. At this rate combat would last forever. The PCs would abandon normal attacks for Armor Piercing Attacks, Killing Attacks, and No Normal Defense Attacks-all in an attempt to do effective damage.

On the opposite extreme, the GM could set the average defenses at 1x the maximum attack dice. Thus, in a campaign with maximum attacks of 10d6 and average defenses of 10, the average attacker would inflict 25 STUN per attack. At this rate, there is an overwhelming advantage for attacking first, because any attack that hits will do tremendous damage to the target. An average roll will Stun many characters, and most will go down after only 2 hits. Character will try to get a high DCV, because the only good defense is not getting hit.

A good rule of thumb: The average defense should run about 2 times the maximum attack (in normal dice), and have a maximum of 2.5 times the maximum attack. Thus a 10d6 campaign might have an average defense of 20 and a maximum defense of 25. Similarly, a 12d6 campaign might have an average defense of 24 and a maximum of 30. Characters with low DCVs can be allowed to have the highest defenses, while the characters with high DCVs should have defenses near the bottom.

The character's maximum SPD helps define the character's relationship with the world around him. Heroes who are much slower than their counterparts have fewer chances to act, and will be able to do less in combat. As a general rule, SPDs should be kept within 3 points of each other; they could range from 3-6, 4-7, etc.

When setting limits on Dex and CV, you are deciding how easily the character will hit others and be hit himself. Of course, there are several things to consider. A defender that has a DCV advantage of 4 or more over the attacker will only be hit one time in six. Thus, the range between the highest Dex and the lowest Dex should rarely be greater than 4 points of CV. In a low-Dex campaign, the Dex could range from 15-27 (base CV 5-9), averaging 20; in a high DEX campaign Dex could range from 20-34 (base CV 7-11), averaging 26.

Notice however, what happens to the heroes in each type of campaign. Assume that a well-trained agent has a Dex of 15. In a low Dex campaign, the agent has a -2 chance to the hit the average hero; he will hit one time out of 3. That same agent attacking the average hero in a high-Dex campaign will be -4, and will only have a one in six chance of hitting. In the low-Dex campaign agents can be effective while in the high-Dex one they are probably just an exercise in dice rolling.

The GM should carefully consider each of these values when setting limits for the campaign. The lower the limits, the closer the heroes will be to "normal" people; higher limits will raise the capabilities of the character. This will have a tremendous impact on the way the character affects the world and the flavor of the campaign.

Average Champions campaign
According to survey data, the average Champions character has the following stats:
Average Main Attack: 11d6
Average total PD or ED: 25
Average DEX 23
Average SPD 5.5

-----End of pS22, _Champions_ 4ed-----

LEGALESE: This is an excerpt from an out of print book that represents ~1/340 of that book's contents. Research has not found any in print source of this material. By the terms of Fair Use, this material is provided for Academic and Research use only and can not be used for any commercial gain without first explicitly negotiating commercial Use Rights with the current holder of the copyright on said material.

*tired typist with RSI nurses sore hands* Likely, usually, as a general rule, rule of thumb... This is not a strongly worded, ironclad argument for... anything really. I get the sense that it is advice for newbies to keep their game balanced in the easiest way possible until they understand the nuances of the game well enough to "eyeball" characters and consider how effective they really will be. I don't think it's intended for experienced players to follow this like it's the Word from On High once they've grown enough in the rules to take the bull by the horns.

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with Zl'f. In Treb's campaign they have a rule limiting speed and damage classes. They simply limit the total of the two combined and then the GM stares at the sheet hard. From what I've read about their campaign it works just fine AND they get to be a lot more creative with their characters.

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 12:48 PM

Can't find it in 5thER, either in the HA description or the Adding Damage section. It may take a FAQ search.I know it's a rule, because the HA Power was originally purchased with that exact Limitation. I changed it when I saw a rule that stated the two weren't allowed to add anyway and thus it was redundant. It may have been in the Hero System Questions forum.

Gary

Apr 26th, '05, 12:48 PM

Exactly why I posted Black Lotus. Very few powers taken with limitations (basically the costume) and built using 'efficient' numbers. Black Lotus's xp has been spent on the +4 hth and +2 overall skill levels.

My character has taken some skills to show the characters background. Basically a vigilante type.

A discussion involving those character builds should prove to be interesting as I think they (hopefully) goto the topic of this thread.

So how many folks would have a problem allowing this character in their campaign?

Quite honestly it depends on the other characters in the campaign. If I have a player running a Lariat type, another running a Powered Armored type, and another with an optimized OIHID type, then Black Lotus wouldn't pose any sort of problems although I might ask for you to remove a few levels. OTOH, if the characters were 'typical' Champions builds, then Lariat or Black Lotus would be far too powerful and must be scaled down.

Gary

Apr 26th, '05, 12:51 PM

A question for both force and gary, re their lotus and lariat character designs..

your campaign doesn't use the usual focus breakage rules, right?

Both of you have 8-9 pt focus armor and under book rules that would be automatically hit by any attack that hit you and would be "outside" of other defenses and so would break for instance if a 10d6 Eb hit you and did 10 body, vanishing in a puff of disbelief.

or are they just used for "first hit padding"?

Generally, I play that foci must be specifically targetted to be destroyed. I highly dislike the 1 pip Penetrating RKA Area Effect focus buster. However, if a player takes the focus limitation, then it does give the GM free license to remove it whenever it suits his plot.

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 12:57 PM

They simply limit the total of the two combined and then the GM stares at the sheet hard. From what I've read about their campaign it works just fine AND they get to be a lot more creative with their characters.Yeah, except for the character sheets which burst into flame from all that high-powered staring... :p

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 01:05 PM

Average Champions campaign
According to survey data, the average Champions character has the following stats:
Average Main Attack: 11d6
Average total PD or ED: 25
Average DEX 23
Average SPD 5.5

-----End of pS22, _Champions_ 4ed-----It's important to note that this "average" was from a Champions edition with 100 fewer CP (only 72% of 5th Edition points), and thus I find it highly likely most 5e games have higher average numbers. And of course, those are averages; not caps. That's averaging the PD, DC, DEX and SPD of bricks and martial artists.

Jeff T.

Apr 26th, '05, 01:06 PM

- Caps work well for the inexperienced, but are definitely quite stifling for the experienced.

- Don't really understand much of this 'typical character' discussion. I don't see how any character would be considered one. Maybe NPC normals and supers, yes. Every campaign differs to some degree or another, even ones based on similar point levels and caps. However, what is typical for one campaign certainly isn't typical for another. There's just no realistic and fair (and apparently for some, nonjudgemental) baseline IMO.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 01:11 PM

*reads second post by AgentX that tells me to FOAD with consternation*

OK, enough is enough.

Utter Bull Sh*t. You evidently like instigating flame wars. No, not really, but I'm not afraid of confronting someone when I think they are abusing someone I like, especially when they use absolutely NO rationale that stands up to any test.

If you notice where I've been spending my time, you'll see I haven't >gotten< to making any further responses to Mike or Trebuchet. I've been kind of busy trying to add real value to the main topic of this thread, and I do have a real life that I'm juggling while participating around here. Non sequitur

I had already apologized to Trebuchet for the mistakes I had made in analyzing Zl'f (I also apologize for the persistent miss-spelling on my part of "Zl'f" Treb. Thanks Sean.) Yeah, but you didn't retract any of your conclusions from your misread so I brought it up again. It's also part of a pattern of behavior.

and had made it quite clear that Lariat was considerably worse. Oh, okay. No, not really okay. You're criticism of Zl'f isn't made polite by pointing out that there are worse characters out there. Most people generally regard that as a back-handed insult.

I have not analyzed Black Lotus, so I have made no comments as to that character. So?

If I could have, I would have responded as reasonably as possible to their posts that I had not yet. You've pretty much made that impossible. How?

You've also removed any incentive I may have had to go back and politely respond to your points or examples in detail. I don't, for one minute, think you had any interest in responding to my points or examples in detail based on how I've seen you respond to others on this thread.

As to the worth or not of my experience:
Like some others around here, I've been gaming for ~3 decades and have done so across almost every RP system or group of gamers with any unique idea or two that I could find. I've been fortunate enough to know >some< of the very talented folks that have created this hobby for the rest of us to pursue well enough to seriously pick their brains on game design and related topics. ...I'm also HEAVY duty comics, fantasy, and sci fi weenie. My library literally fills my basement and a serious chunk of my house with auxiliary off-site storage. My references to the scope of my experience are no less important or more trivial than anyone else around here who has such credentials. So? You don't get it. You haven't used reason to make your point. You've appealed to your own authority through your experience and now with your RPGeek-Fu. The problem is, nobody here sees you as an authority because you don't back it up with thorough tested explanations and arguments.

Until you started posting here we were all trying to be reasonably civilized and logical about whatever disagreements existed between us. No, THEY were reasonably civilized and logical about disagreements. You tossed rude comments around liberally. It may take two to FLAME ON but you were plenty hot without my help.

Both Treb and I had done our parts to nip the (+considerably+ more subtle and sophisticated) only other attempt at causing trouble than yours in the bud. Subtle and Sophisticated doesn't work with some people. And heck, I'm wondering why Treb put up with this. You must have caught him on an off week. Normally, he would have ripped right through you in a civilized and confrontational manner.

EDIT: oh, and Treb and I are both Grown Ups. We were dealing with our disagreements reasonably well without your "help". Given the change in the tone of his posts since your first salvo, that may be all over, and that's truely unfortunate. Yep, I'm to blame for your appeals to authority and insults to Treb and his Group.

IME, Appealing to your experience again.

Treb, Fox1, Oddhat and many others around here with strong opinions are worth any discussion and know how to defend their POV without indulging in bear-baiting or flame wars even when they are involved in a disagreement. That's a valuable skill you have not shown in this thread thus far. Look, I'm disagreeing with you. I'm disagreeing with your conclusions, your rationale, and your flip condescension and ad hominem attacks.

The flames had cooled and died down around here until you decided to add petrol and vitrol to them. That's what "the rest of us have moved on" meant. The flames hadn't died down. You were still calling Treb's character a hyperwhatever combat monster without any support for the statement.

I was being polite in responding to a post that was ENTIRELY an Ad Hominem attack Huh? Which post? Mine? Treb's? Yours?

(gee some of the rest of us recognize both Latin and violations of the rules of formal debate... ...BTW this isn't a formal debate. 1. I'm not trying to impress anyone. Ad Hominem as a descriptor is used on these boards all the time by a whole lot of people. 2. If this was a formal debate, you would have lost many times over now by dropping so many contentions made by others that actually provided reason and evidence instead of conjecture.

It's supposedly a friendly discussion.), Then why weren't you being friendly? Remember these words? Combat Monster, Not Balanced, Treb's Backup Band, Too Nasty, "I'd love to play her in a game where I didn't care about game balance", "the apparently outrageous combat level of MidGuard", "hyper-focused combat monsters", "campaign breakers", "not viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games - These are all things you've said to Treb and friends. Nothing friendly about that. You could have discussed your "balance" concerns without EVER using the term "combat monster" or "outrageous" or "backup band" but you didn't. You chose to be unfriendly. I pointed that out so of course I'm to blame for any unpleasantness. How convenient.

so don't even pretend you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on. Any sh*t storm that results should be accepted by you as justly being at least 50% your responsibility. 1. I haven't used foul language. You just did. 2. I don't bear 50% of the responsibility. The ball is in your court. You can apologize for your behavior toward Treb and friends AND you can stop the rude behavior.

Contrary to your misuse of the term, I have not yet made any Ad Hominem attacks in this thread. Combat Monster, Not Balanced, Treb's Backup Band, Too Nasty, "I'd love to play her in a game where I didn't care about game balance", "the apparently outrageous combat level of MidGuard", "hyper-focused combat monsters", "campaign breakers", "not viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games

Dude, terms like combat monster appeal to emotions rather than reason at least amongst gamers. It's a slur. Slurs are often Ad Hominem attacks as in this case.

(*anger indulged*)
:mad: So here's my first Ad Hominem attack of this thread:
You clearly are so intellectually or psychologically Broken that you get your jollys by tossing gasoline and dynamite around. What did this prove? I've criticized you but I haven't gone "off" on you and I won't.

Go find some vasoline + some sand + a pointy stick for your nether regions. :mad:
(*end anger indulged*) Again, what did this prove?

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 01:16 PM

Now for some practical advice on _using_ this stuff.

Treb has said that Zl'f could not have been built under the sort of restrictions that the original "Playing The Numbers" 4ed blurb gave. That's sort of true and sort of not. Does Trebuchet ever get to be right in your book?

My POV is that given enough CP and using an INTELLIGENT version of guidelines like those in "Playing The Numbers", a campaign balanced version of any of the "combat monsters" posted in this thread could be made. Intelligent version of guidelines? So Treb and Mentor's guidelines aren't intelligent? "combat monsters"? More ad hominem?

We're going to define a design space and then explore guidelines for 3 characters:
A= Average Hero- who lies as close to the exact center of the design space as possible.
B= BBrick- guess
C= Ao'u, Zl'f's son and an even more extreme version of the same idea she is. C: Why are you setting up a strawman?

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 01:20 PM

Since I don't have the book where the sample is taken from, I can't really agrue to much about specifics involved in the case, so I'll go along with you on that one.

However, I guess that all this amounts to is my general reaction to the situation as a whole. I feel that trying to take control over DCs and active points is not necessary (at least for some of us). And I'm concerned that the practice can lead to "vanilla style" characters. It's amazing how quickly characters get CLASS-IFIED as bricks, blasters, and so on when folks have umpteen hard and fast rules and limits on builds.

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 01:23 PM

And heck, I'm wondering why Treb put up with this. You must have caught him on an off week. Normally, he would have ripped right through you in a civilized and confrontational manner.I thought the general discussion had merit even if I felt Ki-rin's criticisms were invalid.

Then why weren't you being friendly? Remember these words? Combat Monster, Not Balanced, Treb's Backup Band, Too Nasty, "I'd love to play her in a game where I didn't care about game balance", "the apparently outrageous combat level of MidGuard", "hyper-focused combat monsters", "campaign breakers", "not viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games - These are all things you've said to Treb and friends. Nothing friendly about that. You could have discussed your "balance" concerns without EVER using the term "combat monster" or "outrageous" or "backup band" but you didn't.Ki-rin may not have meant them as deliberate insults, but I certainly took them that way and so did my fellow campaign members. I can and generally will tolerate a lot of vitriol directed my way, but I tend to lose my cool when my friends or family are attacked.

I don't expect Ki-rin to actually apologize for his harsh words, though. Not to you or to me and my group.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 01:23 PM

Yeah, except for the character sheets which burst into flame from all that high-powered staring... :p Probably shouldn't be using a magnifying lense outdoors on a sunny day...

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 01:30 PM

I thought the general discussion had merit even if I felt Ki-rin's criticisms were invalid.

Ki-rin may not have meant them as deliberate insults, but I certainly took them that way and so did my fellow campaign members. I can and generally will tolerate a lot of vitriol directed my way, but I tend to lose my cool when my friends or family are attacked.

I don't expect Ki-rin to actually apologize for his harsh words, though. Not to you or to me and my group. I don't expect him to but he ought to and anybody who doesn't think they are being insulting when they degrade someone else's pride and joy out of hand needs to re-examine their social skills.

The general discussion can have merit. I think you've done a fine job of showing an original character design that can easily be balanced in a 400 point game using published villains. That gives it merit.

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 01:32 PM

My POV is that given enough CP and using an INTELLIGENT version of guidelines like those in "Playing The Numbers", a campaign balanced version of any of the "combat monsters" posted in this thread could be made.I really appreciate the effort, but I already have a campaign balanced character I've been playing for 12 years. Her name is Zl'f. And, amazingly, I even did without any "INTELLIGENT" guidelines to prevent me from falling into apostacy.

I can post her character sheet if you like? :straight:

Jeff T.

Apr 26th, '05, 01:46 PM

I don't expect him to but he ought to and anybody who doesn't think they are being insulting when they degrade someone else's pride and joy out of hand needs to re-examine their social skills.

I think some people don't realize how condescending and rude they come off when the discussion is taking place in print instead of face-to-face. This probably happens all of us at some point. I suppose the real crime is when the behavior is brought to your attention and you don't own up to it.

Blackjack

Apr 26th, '05, 01:53 PM

To an extent my point is also that we have become to efficient in our character design: we are moving away from the straightforward to the far more esoteric. Using the characters in teh book I could build a Z'lf-like character that could compete (well, higher speed, lower defences and attacks, considerably higher CV....

An excellent point, Sean, though YMMV. I have often seen characters built more "efficiently" (and thus more "esoterically") purely for the sake of efficiency (ie: saving points, proving a point, etc...)

You are also correct in saying that a "straightforward" character (one built on few to no Power Limitations or Frameworkls) can be equally effective. Using the general game parameters of the Midguard campaign (Zl'f's game), I have built two characters that could be members of Midguard (power-wise), neither of whom have a Power Framework and both of whom have 77 Real points or less in Powers with VERY limited Limitations...

Nightwolf: a 350-pt demi-brick Martial Artist (wrestler). 50 STR, 29 CON, no characteristics built with any Limitations at all, no Framework. 53 Points in Native American warrior avatar Powers... Oh, and he has 106 points in Skills - TWICE as many as in Powers...

Peregrine: a 350-pt winged speedster. 33 DEX, 9 SPD, no characteristics built with any Limitations, no Framework. 46 out of 77 points of Powers in Flight (w/ Usuable as Gliding). She also has more points in Skills than in Powers (103 - 77).

Both of these characters are battle-tested against Midguard and fared pretty well

I've noticed (in myself) a quite different design philosophy with 350 pointers than 250 pointers: in a nutshell it is this: I can build a pretty useful brick for 250 points, on 350 points I always end up with extra I need to slot in somewhere (he'll wind up with teleport or desolid or scads of life support or up speed and DEX considerably...). You could just make a 350 point brick more 'bricky', but you quickly run into campaign limits if you're not careful and wind up having to expand sideways... On 250 points, energy blasters are (relatively) difficult to build, on 350 points they come into their own...

Maybe it's just me, but the points do seem to have made a difference not just in power levels (my 350 point bricks aren't that much more powerful than my 250 point ones) but in the character concepts that can be made to work.

It's not just you, Sean. I've found the same thing. I can build characters that are much more rich, balanced, and well-rounded with the extra 100 points, rather than just making them 100 points tougher...

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 01:57 PM

Tangential Challenge: Is there anyone still reading this that is clinging to the notion that stats above Normal Characteristic Maxima are superhuman? It's one thing to define YOUR campaign that way but it's another to CLAIM or IMPLY that it is the published rule when it isn't. I really bring this up because it seems like every time the REAL rule is pointed out to someone who claims the NCM equals Superhuman Threshold, they fade away only to return later claiming the same thing even though they can't be ignorant of the REAL rule anymore. It's flabbergasting. You don't get to claim your House Rule is a Real rule just because you want to.

Now see, this goes to Creation Philosophy. One of the things that matters in creating characters are the benchmarks that separate human from superhuman. It's vitally important in the translation of published characters. Me, I try to convert characters based on what they usually do in the comics circa 'the one's I've read and like' - say 1960s to mid 1980s.

Can Hulk, at base strength, lift a triceratops? a space shuttle? a loaded freighter? I think from what I've seen in the comics the answer is yes. That means he's got to have at least a 90 strength.

Can Hulk lift the Eiffel Tower at base strength? I think, for the story, he probably has to push or be enraged. That means I don't want him to have a 91 strength.

Then there is the door smashing test. Can Hulk bash through a Bank Vault door? How many punches does it take? A bank vault door has a 16 bod, 16 def so this is measurable and helps me understand how I need to build the character. I'm thinking when Hulk is fully enraged AND he's haymakering he can knock a bank vault door right off it's hinges. That's got to be an attack that ought to average a safe range over 32 dice to make it a rare event that he fails.

See, when I look at the stats for the Environment Supers live in it suggests that Ogre is, well, a sad excuse for a brick. He's just not going to conjure up the images of a comic-book style brick pounding his way through stuff.

So, I think Environment is more important than a lot of posters seem to indicate. Many people focus only on the interaction of characters with one another and want close math ranges to make the game easier for them to "control". I want my Hulk to do what Hulk can do.

This applies to my original characters just as much. If I'm envisioning a guy who can lift a massive tank, I want the strength to be able to do that. If my blaster can vaporize most steel, reinforced walls, I need to reflect that in his build.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 01:59 PM

I think some people don't realize how condescending and rude they come off when the discussion is taking place in print instead of face-to-face. This probably happens all of us at some point. I suppose the real crime is when the behavior is brought to your attention and you don't own up to it. Yeah, the sad thing is a lot of gamers are this rude face to face... until someone stands up to them. Then they get an embarrassed scowl and find a reason to move away.

No apology though.

You are Starlord right?

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 02:03 PM

Both of these characters are battle-tested against Midguard and fared pretty well...Ah, we kicked their bute-ox! Of course, MidGuard's characters being 50 more points that pretty much was the expected result. :winkgrin:

But, yes, they both did well and would fit into MidGuard just fine.

Force

Apr 26th, '05, 03:55 PM

Quite honestly it depends on the other characters in the campaign. If I have a player running a Lariat type, another running a Powered Armored type, and another with an optimized OIHID type, then Black Lotus wouldn't pose any sort of problems although I might ask for you to remove a few levels. OTOH, if the characters were 'typical' Champions builds, then Lariat or Black Lotus would be far too powerful and must be scaled down.

All the levels would come off. They were bought with xp.

I am curious on whether you would allow a character like Z'lf start in a 'typical' campaign or not as well.

OddHat

Apr 26th, '05, 04:49 PM

All the levels would come off. They were bought with xp.

I am curious on whether you would allow a character like Z'lf start in a 'typical' campaign or not as well.

I would, in my 450 point PBEM game. She might need to be beefed up a bit, but no problem. I'd also allow her in my 400 point PBEM, but she'd need to give up a bit. I'd be happy enough with her in my face-to-face game. I don't consider her overpowered (from a mechanics point of view) for my higher point games, but mainly I'd allow her to be played because I trust the player. Personalities and play styles trump mechanics most of the time when it comes to how well a character works in a group.

Ki-rin

Apr 26th, '05, 04:54 PM

*gets back from work and sees AgentX Troll has been busy trying to be as destructive as possible again*

I'll respond only to the "high" points. Then I'm going to get back to trying to make useful posts. *might as well have fun doing it*

Does Trebuchet ever get to be right in your book?

Intelligent version of guidelines? So Treb and Mentor's guidelines aren't intelligent? "combat monsters"? More ad hominem?

C: Why are you setting up a strawman?

You persist in these attempts to twist my words and actions into a hatefully distorted parody of their intent and meaning. Regain your maturity.

If you have anything other than treacherous social manipulation and craven innuendo to contribute, please speak these and all will attend. Otherwise, please be silent. You are not nearly as cunning as you appear to think yourself, and these infantile tactics should be transparent to any who even casually examine and reflect on them.

This Discourse was evolving peacefully and satifactorily before your first uninvited disruption and again after it recovered from it. Yet you return to tedious attempts to throw all into turmoil and chaos once again.

My research (yes, the Careful Man does research both potential foes and potential vermin) shows that this behavior is unworthy of you, but then it would be unworthy of any adult of good breeding. I pray you reconsider this present course and correct your path, for no good can come of this one for you.

Nonetheless, "actions make the man" and if for some reason you can not climb back from your Fall from the ranks of Gentlefolk and rejoin our Good Company, then you will be treated as your words and deeds warrant and demand.

Yeah, the sad thing is a lot of gamers are this rude face to face... until someone stands up to them. Then they get an embarrassed scowl and find a reason to move away.

No apology though.

You insinuate that I am Craven...

While trying to instigate a conflict you know can not have real consequences to your person as you are "safe" and not F2F...

While disrupting a conversation that was doing just fine without you (perhaps that's why you decided you needed to try and inflame things? WTF did I do to you?)...

In the process of a being a firestarter who has added NOTHING substantive to the discussion except to destabilize it every time you post...

While deporting yourself as if you are The Ultimate Authority on these matters. (The rest of us have engaged in give and take, but not you... No, your Word is God's. Sorry, not buying.)

And you have the EFFRONTARY to call ?ME? arrogant and condescending??

...AND I OWE ?YOU? AN APOLOGY??

That will happen about the time Lucifer rules on both Earth and Heaven and not a moment before.

You sir, are an unmannerly churl, and your behavior is that of the Craven Instigator and Coward as well as that of the Bully.

Were this another time and place I would challenge you to face me Man to Man with pistols or fisticuffs, your choice, until one of us asks pardon or unconsciousness or death.

Don't get confused about the neo-Victorian prose, I'm dead serious.

I strongly suggest we just add each other to our respective Ignore lists and move on.

You want more than that then I want an address for a f2f meet and we'll settle this like Men. Regardless of how much younger than I you are.

*...and to think I usually +respect+ Teachers. I feel sorry for this jack@ss's students*

Force

Apr 26th, '05, 05:02 PM

I would, in my 450 point PBEM game. She might need to be beefed up a bit, but no problem. I'd also allow her in my 400 point PBEM, but she'd need to give up a bit. I'd be happy enough with her in my face-to-face game. I don't consider her overpowered (from a mechanics point of view) for my higher point games, but mainly I'd allow her to be played because I trust the player. Personalities and play styles trump mechanics most of the time when it comes to how well a character works in a group.

Let's not talk about who is playing the character.

Let's just go from character write ups.

Would you allow Z'lf or Black Lotus in a 350pt campaign?

OddHat

Apr 26th, '05, 05:11 PM

Let's not talk about who is playing the character.

Let's just go from character write ups.

Would you allow Z'lf or Black Lotus in a 350pt campaign?

I do not allow characters in if I do not trust the players. That's part of what my own experience has taught me. That said, If I did trust the player, then while I would handle Zl'f's limitations somewhat differently, yes, I'd let her in to some of my campaigns.

I look at player personality before character, look at concept before mechanics, and balance the mechanics according to the expected needs of the campaign. I don't see that as all that unusual an approach.

Jeff T.

Apr 26th, '05, 05:22 PM

*gets back from work and sees AgentX Troll has been busy trying to be as destructive as possible again*

I'll respond only to the "high" points. Then I'm going to get back to trying to make useful posts. *might as well have fun doing it*

You persist in these attempts to twist my words and actions into a hatefully distorted parody of their intent and meaning. Regain your maturity.

If you have anything other than treacherous social manipulation and craven innuendo to contribute, please speak these and all will attend. Otherwise, please be silent. You are not nearly as cunning as you appear to think yourself, and these infantile tactics should be transparent to any who even casually examine and reflect on them.

This Discourse was evolving peacefully and satifactorily before your first uninvited disruption and again after it recovered from it. Yet you return to tedious attempts to throw all into turmoil and chaos once again.

My research (yes, the Careful Man does research both potential foes and potential vermin) shows that this behavior is unworthy of you, but then it would be unworthy of any adult of good breeding. I pray you reconsider this present course and correct your path, for no good can come of this one for you.

Nonetheless, "actions make the man" and if for some reason you can not climb back from your Fall from the ranks of Gentlefolk and rejoin our Good Company, then you will be treated as your words and deeds warrant and demand.

You insinuate that I am Craven...

While trying to instigate a conflict you know can not have real consequences to your person as you are "safe" and not F2F...

While disrupting a conversation that was doing just fine without you (perhaps that's why you decided you needed to try and inflame things? WTF did I do to you?)...

In the process of a being a firestarter who has added NOTHING substantive to the discussion except to destabilize it every time you post...

While deporting yourself as if you are The Ultimate Authority on these matters. (The rest of us have engaged in give and take, but not you... No, your Word is God's. Sorry, not buying.)

And you have the EFFRONTARY to call ?ME? arrogant and condescending??

...AND I OWE ?YOU? AN APOLOGY??

That will happen about the time Lucifer rules on both Earth and Heaven and not a moment before.

You sir, are an unmannerly churl, and your behavior is that of the Craven Instigator and Coward as well as that of the Bully.

Were this another time and place I would challenge you to face me Man to Man with pistols or fisticuffs, your choice, until one of us asks pardon or unconsciousness or death.

Don't get confused about the neo-Victorian prose, I'm dead serious.

I strongly suggest we just add each other to our respective Ignore lists and move on.

You want more than that then I want an address for a f2f meet and we'll settle this like Men. Regardless of how much younger than I you are.

*...and to think I usually +respect+ Teachers. I feel sorry for this jack@ss's students*

Cool Dr. Doom impersonation. :rofl: :rofl: :thumbup:

PS: It's Affrontery.

David Blue

Apr 26th, '05, 05:24 PM

I was looking at the sample characters in the big black book, trying to work out some system for comparing the combat efficiency of various characters: my conclusion is that you just can’t do it, even when you are only comparing two characters, unless they are built in a very straightforward way.Do you think it would be desirable if you could do it? (I think it would.)

Force

Apr 26th, '05, 05:32 PM

I do not allow characters in if I do not trust the players. That's part of what my own experience has taught me. That said, If I did trust the player, then while I would handle Zl'f's limitations somewhat differently, yes, I'd let her in to some of my campaigns.

I look at player personality before character, look at concept before mechanics, and balance the mechanics according to the expected needs of the campaign. I don't see that as all that unusual an approach.

But does this really address this?:

Anyway, this got me thinking: what is the biggest problem in the game, even for experienced players? How long combat takes. There’s all kinds of ways to speed up combat I’ve seen (and tried) over the years, but the one that never occurred to me was designing characters that wouldn’t last so long in a fight!

Is it possible we have all become a bit too good at character design, and forgotten that the real reason we are doing this is to play an enjoyable game, not finally attain The Perfect Build.

It’s a strange thought, but maybe we should pay rather more attention to the character build guidelines and the sample characters, and create characters that are designed to be superheroes rather than characters that are designed to be points efficient: we tend to get a bit paranoid and assume that if we do not make a character that is as points efficient as possible, someone else will, and we’ll get shown up.

It might feel odd, but I suspect it could be fun!

Or is it the answer to this?

Trebuchet

Apr 26th, '05, 05:39 PM

Cool Dr. Doom impersonation. :rofl: :rofl: :thumbup:

PS: It's Affrontery.Yes, it was. Too bad it's all for naught, because, while I think Agent X's rhetoric is a little bit over the top, he's still essentially correct about Ki-rin's attitude. It's rather interesting that although Ki-rin makes a great show that he and I are somehow "discussing this like adults", he has not in fact responded directly to even one of my posts since page seven of this thread. I might as well be on Ignore. That is hardly a sign of respect, and certainly is not a "discussion" by any standard.

Ah well. At least I'll have my "ungodly combat monster" to comfort me in my totally unbalanced campaign. :rolleyes:

Super Squirrel

Apr 26th, '05, 05:50 PM

Tangential Challenge: Is there anyone still reading this that is clinging to the notion that stats above Normal Characteristic Maxima are superhuman?
I do in the case of Intelligence. I feel that INT starts to break the system after 35 and if you define 31 points as the Start of Superhuman there is no true range of Superhuman intelligence.

Ki-rin

Apr 26th, '05, 05:59 PM

*shakes out sore hands and gets back to the proper mindset*

My apologies for the delay in following up on my last post regarding Creation Philosophy. Work got in the way, and I had a hard time figuring out a decent approach to the next step. Let's see if this works.

At it's most fundamental, combat is basically a race. Whoever does more _sustained_ damage (more damage than can be REC per Turn) per unit time wins. Therefore one way of defining two characters as balanced in combat with regards to each other is that they each have an equal chance of Stunning or KOing the other.

When your PC first evaluates a potential opponent, your strategy will fall into one of these:
A- You can do damage >= their Con. You can win by Stunning the opponent.

B- You can do damage < their Con and >= their STUN/your SPD. You can win by KO in one Turn.

C- You can do damage < their Con, < their STUN/your SPD, and > than their REC. You can win by a multi Turn KO. Call it a TKO.

D- You can't do damage > their REC. You can't Fight and must Flee to survive.

Bricks tend to use (A) since they usually only need one hit to connect to take out most opponents. This also means they don't need to be very fast or skillful to offer at least a fair fight for most. This also means they need large Def in order to be able to survive getting hit while they are waiting to use that big attack.

As the character's attack DC decreases, obviously their SPD and skill must increase to make up for it if they are to do the same amount of damage in a Turn. This starts by being the region of strategy (B). Since their SPD and skill has increased, the character's Def must decrease in order to keep them combat balanced.

As we decrease the attack DC even further to that of strategy (C), we must increase SPD and skill even more to make sure our character's expected damage over the entirety of the combat stays the same. This also means we must decrease our Def even further if we are to give our opponent an equal chance.

In the spirit of using extremes to make a point, I'm going to post 3 characters that are very different form each other yet still provably combat balanced with regards to each other:
BBrick has SPD 3, a huge DC attack, large Defenses, and is relatively unskillful.

AverageHero has SPD 6, a moderate DC attack, moderate Defenses, and is moderately skillful.

Au'o has SPD 12, a small DC attack, small Defenses, and is very skillful and nigh unto impossible to hit.

I'll post the work with the exact numbers after I give my hands a rest.

OddHat

Apr 26th, '05, 06:13 PM

But does this really address this?:

Or is it the answer to this?

Internet conversations drift, as I expect you've noticed. I don't see that as a problem.

Added to that, it was a direct answer to your question. I don't see a problem there either.

However, the approach of Player->Conept->Mechanics adjusted by needs of the campaign can account for combat length; knocking down defenses to speed combat works well, if the needs of the campaign require it. It's the approach used in the 450 point online game I'm currently GMing for all save one character (whose schtick is his high defenses).

Super Squirrel

Apr 26th, '05, 06:16 PM

I'm just curious, I haven't seen it mentioned yet or missed it if it was but Ki'rin are you normally the player or the GM in your HERO games?

Stray Cat

Apr 26th, '05, 06:17 PM

Were this another time and place I would challenge you to face me Man to Man with pistols or fisticuffs, your choice, until one of us asks pardon or unconsciousness or death.

Don't get confused about the neo-Victorian prose, I'm dead serious.

I strongly suggest we just add each other to our respective Ignore lists and move on.

You want more than that then I want an address for a f2f meet and we'll settle this like Men. Regardless of how much younger than I you are.

*...and to think I usually +respect+ Teachers. I feel sorry for this jack@ss's students*

Ladies and gentlemen, hoboes and tramps,
Cross-eyed mosquitoes and bow-legged ants,
I come before you to stand behind you,
To tell you something I know nothing about.
Next Thursday, which is Good Friday,
There will be a Mother's Day meeting for fathers only;
Admission is free, so pay at the door,
Pull up a seat and sit on the floor.
The topic to discuss...
The crime that has never been committed.

One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead men got up to fight,
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other,
One was blind and the other couldn't see
So they chose a dummy for a referee.
A blind man went to see fair play,
A dumb man went to shout "hooray!"
A paralyzed donkey passing by,
Kicked the blind man in the eye,
Knocked him through a nine-inch wall,
Into a dry ditch and drowned them all,
A deaf policeman heard the noise,
And came to arrest the two dead boys,
If you don't believe this story’s true,
Ask the blind man he saw it too!

Cat

Super Squirrel

Apr 26th, '05, 06:23 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, hoboes and tramps,
Cross-eyed mosquitoes and bow-legged ants,
I come before you to stand behind you,
To tell you something I know nothing about.
Next Thursday, which is Good Friday,
There will be a Mother's Day meeting for fathers only;
Admission is free, so pay at the door,
Pull up a seat and sit on the floor.
The topic to discuss...
The crime that has never been committed.

One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead men got up to fight,
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other,
One was blind and the other couldn't see
So they chose a dummy for a referee.
A blind man went to see fair play,
A dumb man went to shout "hooray!"
A paralyzed donkey passing by,
Kicked the blind man in the eye,
Knocked him through a nine-inch wall,
Into a dry ditch and drowned them all,
A deaf policeman heard the noise,
And came to arrest the two dead boys,
If you don't believe this story’s true,
Ask the blind man he saw it too!

Cat
That would be Poe My Lips Are Sealed

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 06:27 PM

*gets back from work and sees AgentX Troll has been busy trying to be as destructive as possible again*

I'll respond only to the "high" points. Then I'm going to get back to trying to make useful posts. *might as well have fun doing it*

You persist in these attempts to twist my words and actions into a hatefully distorted parody of their intent and meaning. Regain your maturity.

If you have anything other than treacherous social manipulation and craven innuendo to contribute, please speak these and all will attend. Otherwise, please be silent. You are not nearly as cunning as you appear to think yourself, and these infantile tactics should be transparent to any who even casually examine and reflect on them.

This Discourse was evolving peacefully and satifactorily before your first uninvited disruption and again after it recovered from it. Yet you return to tedious attempts to throw all into turmoil and chaos once again.

My research (yes, the Careful Man does research both potential foes and potential vermin) shows that this behavior is unworthy of you, but then it would be unworthy of any adult of good breeding. I pray you reconsider this present course and correct your path, for no good can come of this one for you.

Nonetheless, "actions make the man" and if for some reason you can not climb back from your Fall from the ranks of Gentlefolk and rejoin our Good Company, then you will be treated as your words and deeds warrant and demand.

You insinuate that I am Craven...

While trying to instigate a conflict you know can not have real consequences to your person as you are "safe" and not F2F...

While disrupting a conversation that was doing just fine without you (perhaps that's why you decided you needed to try and inflame things? WTF did I do to you?)...

In the process of a being a firestarter who has added NOTHING substantive to the discussion except to destabilize it every time you post...

While deporting yourself as if you are The Ultimate Authority on these matters. (The rest of us have engaged in give and take, but not you... No, your Word is God's. Sorry, not buying.)

And you have the EFFRONTARY to call ?ME? arrogant and condescending??

...AND I OWE ?YOU? AN APOLOGY??

That will happen about the time Lucifer rules on both Earth and Heaven and not a moment before.

You sir, are an unmannerly churl, and your behavior is that of the Craven Instigator and Coward as well as that of the Bully.

Were this another time and place I would challenge you to face me Man to Man with pistols or fisticuffs, your choice, until one of us asks pardon or unconsciousness or death.

Don't get confused about the neo-Victorian prose, I'm dead serious.

I strongly suggest we just add each other to our respective Ignore lists and move on.

You want more than that then I want an address for a f2f meet and we'll settle this like Men. Regardless of how much younger than I you are.

*...and to think I usually +respect+ Teachers. I feel sorry for this jack@ss's students* I'm not confused by your prose. I'm astounded that you would use it. I'm also astounded you would challenge me to a proverbial duel. What are you trying to prove?

You're doing research on me? No good can come of this for me? This is obviously some sort of threat what with the comments about meeting face to face and duels and the death talk. You've got issues.

I suggest you stop now. You are inching very close to legal difficulties.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 06:31 PM

I do in the case of Intelligence. I feel that INT starts to break the system after 35 and if you define 31 points as the Start of Superhuman there is no true range of Superhuman intelligence. The chart sets Legendary Intelligence at 21 to 50 and Superhuman Intelligence at 51 or better. 31+ is for physical stats. I'm a little confused by your post. Did you know this already or not?

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 06:32 PM

Yes, it was. Too bad it's all for naught, because, while I think Agent X's rhetoric is a little bit over the top, he's still essentially correct about Ki-rin's attitude. It's rather interesting that although Ki-rin makes a great show that he and I are somehow "discussing this like adults", he has not in fact responded directly to even one of my posts since page seven of this thread. I might as well be on Ignore. That is hardly a sign of respect, and certainly is not a "discussion" by any standard.

Ah well. At least I'll have my "ungodly combat monster" to comfort me in my totally unbalanced campaign. :rolleyes: Nothing else got his attention so I repeated my point over and over and over and over.

Force

Apr 26th, '05, 06:44 PM

You know agentx, I think I will just leave this thread and hope someone starts one all over.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 06:47 PM

You know agentx, I think I will just leave this thread and hope someone starts one all over.Sorry man, I didn't want it to go here. My hope was that Ki-rin would catch on to what I was getting at and either he would acknowledge the problem or he would fade out trying to save face. I never thought there would be talk of duels and death. But hey, you meet all kinds on the net.

David Blue

Apr 26th, '05, 06:48 PM

At it's most fundamental, combat is basically a race. Whoever does more _sustained_ damage (more damage than can be REC per Turn) per unit time wins. Therefore one way of defining two characters as balanced in combat with regards to each other is that they each have an equal chance of Stunning or KOing the other.That's an interesting and possibly useful metaphor.

By "damage," do you mean STUN?

Because doing BODY is easy and very effective.

Adjustment attacks like "Transformation to my willing slave" are effective too.

As we decrease the attack DC even further to that of strategy (C), we must increase SPD and skill even more to make sure our character's expected damage over the entirety of the combat stays the same. This also means we must decrease our Def even further if we are to give our opponent an equal chance.I don't see that.

An attempt to win by a multi-Turn campaign of reducing the opponent's STUN could involve different means of protection, including DCV and all the defences the opponent could be hitting in the meantime - Resistant Flash Defence, Hardened Damage Reduction, Double-Hardened Power Defence, Life Support (versus some of the infinite range of attacks with No Normal Defence) and so on. Is this not so?

I'll post the work with the exact numbers after I give my hands a rest.I recommend you reconsider your assumptions. It would be a pity if you hurt your hands, and twice the pity if people then said you had laboured in vain because your assumptions were invalid.

Force

Apr 26th, '05, 06:49 PM

Sorry man, I didn't want it to go here. My hope was that Ki-rin would catch on to what I was getting at and either he would acknowledge the problem or he would fade out trying to save face. I never thought there would be talk of duels and death. But hey, you meet all kinds on the net.

My last and only response, maybe forever here on these forums.

Don't say you didn't want it to go here.

You guaranteed it would.

Thanks all!

Signing off...

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 06:55 PM

My last and only response, maybe forever here on these forums.

Don't say you didn't want it to go here.

You guaranteed it would.

Thanks all!

Signing off... No, seriously, I didn't want to be threatened nor did I think it would go there. I just wanted this guy to own up to his rude behavior. It never ceases to amaze me how folks blame someone for not putting up with rude, bullying behavior. It isn't rude to stand up to rudeness. I never used foul language. I attacked statements he made that needed to be attacked. I just wonder what you think people should put up with to avoid "unpleasantness."

Super Squirrel

Apr 26th, '05, 06:58 PM

I forgot that it was. But I highly hate that. I seriously believe that INT starts to break down after 35 though. Heck, even Dr. Destroyer, who according to his write-up is among the smartest of all and is matchless in wits. Yet he remains a 35 in INT. That is why I hold true to the believe that 50+ is a mistake.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 07:00 PM

I forgot that it was. But I highly hate that. I seriously believe that INT starts to break down after 35 though. Heck, even Dr. Destroyer, who according to his write-up is among the smartest of all and is matchless in wits. Yet he remains a 35 in INT. That is why I hold true to the believe that 50+ is a mistake. It works for me. I studied Standard Deviation of Intelligence enough in college to accept it in a pseudo-scientific babbly way. I even started a thread on it some time ago. I'll search for it.

Stray Cat

Apr 26th, '05, 07:01 PM

That would be Poe My Lips Are Sealed

Actually much older than that... I didn't know there was a modern song, much less a "Poe" person. But cool! Now I hafta go find some music.

Cat

Ben Seeman

Apr 26th, '05, 07:04 PM

This thread was reported. Shall I close it?

AliceTheOwl

Apr 26th, '05, 07:05 PM

That would be Poe My Lips Are Sealed
Correction: PART of that poem was reproduced in Poe's version of My Lips Are Sealed. I've heard about where the rest is from, but I can't remember now.

Super Squirrel

Apr 26th, '05, 07:05 PM

This thread was reported. Shall I close it?
No, but I suggest you send a PM to Ki'rin.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 07:06 PM

This thread was reported. Shall I close it? I'm ambivalent. I think the subject is interesting although the interactions among posters, especially me and this one guy, have spiraled into a sort of wierd I don't recall seeing on the boards before.

AliceTheOwl

Apr 26th, '05, 07:06 PM

This thread was reported. Shall I close it?
Um. Well, they do seem to kind of be going around in circles, from what I can tell . . .

Ben Seeman

Apr 26th, '05, 07:08 PM

The problem I have is that I don't want to have to go through 16 pages of posts to figure out who to punish.

This is stupid.

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 07:08 PM

Um. Well, they do seem to kind of be going around in circles, from what I can tell . . . We talked about Creation Philosophy stuff, Intelligence, and... stuff.

Stray Cat

Apr 26th, '05, 07:10 PM

Correction: PART of that poem was reproduced in Poe's version of My Lips Are Sealed. I've heard about where the rest is from, but I can't remember now.

My dad used to recite that to me when I was little. I went to this site (http://www.folklore.bc.ca/Onefineday.htm) to find it when the duelish threats came outta that one guy's umm mouth...

Cat

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 07:11 PM

The problem I have is that I don't want to have to go through 16 pages of posts to figure out who to punish.

This is stupid.Well, since I was complaining to Ki-Rin about edit: his posts you can look at my posts and see if I was too strident in my complaints or if my complaints are valid or both. All I know is I used no foul language. I didn't back down. He started speaking in affected Victorian prose and mentioned duels, death, etc. Check out post #200. It's sort of a special low point on the boards. I'm a bit embarrassed, yeah me embarrassed, to be associated with it.

David Blue

Apr 26th, '05, 07:14 PM

This thread was reported. Shall I close it?Yes, close it please.

Super Squirrel

Apr 26th, '05, 07:17 PM

The problem I have is that I don't want to have to go through 16 pages of posts to figure out who to punish.

This is stupid.
Then punish those of us who are being civil to make it easy on yourself and lock the thread. :whistle:

Agent X

Apr 26th, '05, 07:19 PM

Then punish those of us who are being civil to make it easy on yourself and lock the thread. :whistle: :sneaky:

Dr. Anomaly

Apr 26th, '05, 07:25 PM

The problem I have is that I don't want to have to go through 16 pages of posts to figure out who to punish.
(shrug)

Post #200 has one member threatening another with a duel to the death, and says he's serious. I don't think it's that hard to figure out. :straight:

Ben Seeman

Apr 26th, '05, 07:31 PM

(shrug)

Post #200 has one member threatening another with a duel to the death, and says he's serious. I don't think it's that hard to figure out. :straight:
All I needed was to have it pointed out to me.

Dr. Anomaly

Apr 26th, '05, 07:32 PM

All I needed was to have it pointed out to me.
Then I'll consider that my Good Deed for the day. ;)

Ben Seeman

Apr 26th, '05, 07:36 PM

Yeah this thread is done.

The parties involved need to just let it go and not talk to each other for a while. Maybe ever. Please.