Generic books and threat levels

[nexus]

This came up in the Hero Discussion Board



Lions are useless in a superhero game. Batman can beat dozens of them. Want proof? Here:

We will assume Batman has a 10 CV, 5 levels, and martial arts. Batman is thrown into a cage with 10 hungry lions. Batman goes all DCV and does martial strikes. That gives Batman a 13- to hit the lions and the lions need 3- to hit him [we are going to assume that Batman has defensive maneuver and so has full DCV from behind]. Batman walks around and in 10 phases takes out all 10 lions, without ever even needing to dodge once.

In order to properly simulate the genres you need to rewrite everything for each individual genre. If you need to rewrite everything then what's the point of having a universal system? What's the point of buying more books if I need to rewrite everything in it to make it work for a specific genre? Having a universal system gives you plenty of options but takes away genre flavor. The loss of the genre flavor is why players are going to other, genre specific, games, IMO.


Now personally, I don't see why this is an issue or a failing of the Hero System. Generic Lions are little threat to a high powered superhero doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. Batman (particularly "Batgod") has taken on cosmic level villains, that a pride of normal creatures he can fight and evade without much trouble seems par for the course.

[nexus]

A 10 CV martial artist is fairly common. Having 5 levels and 5 points worth defensive maneuver is also not uncommon. I used the Batman name just because it is recognizable. Most 350-400 point would easily fit that mold as well.

The point was that in the comics Batman will not just be walking around through a cage of hungry lions. He will be dodging and trying to climb bars to get away from the lions. Hitting a few but trying to use his batarangs and gas to take out most of them. The universality of the Hero System does not fit the genre Champions is attempting to portray, IMO.

Depends on the game, but accepting that what you describe is what the Hero Batman is doing. His 10 DCV and level bonuses are coming from manuvering, evasion and "dodging" he just doesn't have to totally defensive to survive. The character probably would use batarangs and AE gas to take out the creatures quicker than just punching them. Its both faster and more inline with "Batman" operates. At least that is how I see it.

[nexus]

I remember Batman's first encounter with Ra's Al Ghul. He defeated a leopard. That was cool. A leopard is not a pride of lions. :)

The problem is that you expect that Batman would need to be dodging to avoid being hit by the cats. In the comic what you are going to see are panels with Batman trying to avoid the cats. In panel represents a phase. In the game Batman will never be hit by the cats [except for the lucky "3" roll]. Batman also has a speed advantage as the lion has a 4 and Batman has a 6. Do you believe that Batman is quicker than a lion?


As a superhero and the peak of human potential? Yes I do. And I think we're talking past each other. 10 DCV is him "dodging" and defending himself. If the MA is unable to manuver in some way, his DCV will drop accordingly. "Dodging" as in the combat manuver is going completely defensive and being unable to return an attack. I guess its a visulization difference.



Would any Champions PC want to buy a lion as a multiform knowing that it is weaker than any villain it might fight? The point of turning into a lion is to be more powerful, IMO.

Any "animal" form character I have seen created have purchased their multiform as superior to a normal lion, for just that reason. They are superhumans that turn into superior animals. It doesn't seem to be a big problem that superheroes are superior to garden variety animals. If these characters are expected to be able to take on alien monsters, advanced military threats and vastly powerful supervillains they must be beyond something in the normal world.

[Victim]

The problem is that you expect that Batman would need to be dodging to avoid being hit by the cats. In the comic what you are going to see are panels with Batman trying to avoid the cats. In panel represents a phase. In the game Batman will never be hit by the cats [except for the lucky "3" roll]. Batman also has a speed advantage as the lion has a 4 and Batman has a 6. Do you believe that Batman is quicker than a lion?


The idea that someone isn't dodging unless they're aborting phases is silly. That's why DCV is reduced when a character is suprised or unable to move effectively. DCV -> dodging.

[nexus]

A panel where you see Batman getting out of the way of something is a panel where he did the maneuver dodge. A panel where you see him hitting someone who has just swung at him and missed is a panel where he is using his skill in combat to avoid being hit. Those are two different things.


It could also be a panel were Bat's missed (didn't see an opening or whatever), didn't have a phase in which to act or was doing something else or indeed opted to dodge. It could also be just depicting the Lion's phase. We don't have game stats or what the rolls where listed below and the "phase a panel" aspect is a suggestion not a hardcore absolute. The reader decides what happened. The rule don't exactly reflect what happens in the panels unless the comic is drawn to cater to the Hero System and most of them aren't.



As far as Multiform, I never got the impression that Changling was turning into super animals. He was just turning into animals.

I wouldn't think they were plain generic animals fresh out of a sourcebook that could challenge some of the most powerful beings on the planet since there are normal humans that can take these animals down. In most supers games I know the animals he was turning into would have to have some sort of edge to be dangerous to supervillains.

[OddHat]

All just IMO, but;

Batman has taken on Superman in multiple one-on-one fights over the years, and has usually won (due to writer's bennediction). He should be able to defeat a pride of lions.

In a 350 point campaign, I'd expect my own character to be more than a match for any number of normal animals. If Tarzan can take on one Lion, my super-Martial Artist should have no trouble with a dozen. After all, my Super-Martial Artist can also probably mack bullets out of the air and manage 60 foot leaps; Tarzan is only human, while my 350 point character is by now quite a bit more.

If I wanted ordinary Lions to be a theat to my Supers, I'd be running a 200 point Supers game, or have set very low limits on CV and rDef.

As to Beast Boy, he's not one of the tougher Titans (or he wasn't years ago when I was reading the series). To make that type of character effective in Champions, I'd give them the Red in Tooth & Claw martial art, some extra DC, and 3 point skill levels with RiT&C. I'd also expect my shape-shifting metamorph to have no trouble besting ordinary animals.

My point, if there is one, is that this is a question of campaign power level. If you wan a game where ordinary animals are a threat, you need to run supers on the low end of the scale.

A 350 point Bat-clone who has trouble with one Leopard has clearly sunk all of his points into gadgets, skills, bases an vehicles. ;)

[zornwil]

Exactly, OddHat, and I just wanted to add something - that confusion over Batman is because writers want it both ways. They want the Batman who is very mortal whom we identify with, AND they want uber-Batman. This dichotomy is difficult to manage. I think the closest anyone has come, and it's still not really in this strict "have it both ways", is Miller where Batman needs help to put down Superman and it's a BIG deal to him, not something he feels assured of.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

I agree that DCV represents moving around, getting out the way, etc. that you can be dodging without aborting to dodge.

I've never played superheros, except for a 700pt one-shot which was bad ass (no lion is gonna stand in the way of someone with speed 12)

[keithcurtis]

Tarzan is only human
For some reason, this strikes me as terribly funny.
In Darren's Pulp All-Stars game he ran two years ago, Tarzan topped out at 579 points, second only to Doc Savage, IIRC.

On topic. DCV = avoiding being hit. Dodge = Doing nothing else but avoiding being hit.

Batman can easily take out a pride of lions in the pages of JLA. In fact, it's such a cake walk it would likely be handled between pages.
Lion Master: So you see JLA, no one can stop me. I have you all bound in shackles of Unbelievium.
Flash: Not so fast LionMaster, there's one JLA member you haven't captured.
LionMaster: Batman? Hahahahahaha! Ha! He'd have to get through my little pets. He's only one man.
Superman: The most dangerous man on the planet!
Suddenly, a blue-gloved fist one-punches LionMaster from out of nowhere. There stands Batman in an open doorway, on the other side a room full of snoozing felis leo's.
Batman: Hrm. Obviously you've never heard of sleep gas. Don't you read my comics?

Now in Detective Comics ca 1980, there'd be a whole cover depicting Batman pinned under a lion desperately trying to keep it's jaws from making bat-kibble from him. There's be a cover blurb saying, "This is the end for Batman! We're not Lyin'!!!" And there'd be five pages of great Don Newton art of Batman jumping around, using utility belt gimmicks, maybe getting two lions to knock each other out by confusing them with his cape, like a matador.

Different story needs, different genres. And in RPG terms, different point builds. Detective Comics Batman ca 1980 is built on 300-400 points, a huge amount of which are things like disguise and criminology. JLA Bats is more like 1200 points and looks like Harbinger form 4th Ed. Champions.

Keith "Robin! Hand me down the shark... repellent... bat-spray!" Curtis

[Lord Liaden]

MitchellS, you have my sympathy. It's clear that you want lions, as they are officially written up in the Bestiary and other Hero books, to be a serious threat to some types of superheroes. That would suit your sense of what is logical and appropriate. For that reason you feel that the writeups for lions and other beasts are not useful to you when running a supers game. That being the case I can understand your frustration and disappointment, and there are probably others who feel as you do.

However, I'm afraid you'll have to accept that, for the reasons and because of the options already mentioned on this thread, there are other Hero gamers who don't want or need that and don't see a problem. Just an "agree to disagree" situation. :)

[Jeff T.]

Seriously, ten lions should not be a threat to a 350 pt superhero.

If you want realism, the lions (being animals and all) would probably run away at the first sign that this fairly large and colorful being stood up to, and was able to injure, one of them. Heck, one gunshot (or sound of that type) would scatter them.

Actually, they'd probably just lay down and start licking themselves cuz anyone who's watched Animal Planet knows that it's the lionesses that do all the work. :D

That aside, I would agree that HERO shouldn't be a universal system, although I have admittedly clear Champions bias. I've heard a couple folks here mention that they think HERO might not last another year. IF that's true, I would think DOJ's time and resources would be better spent on the heart of the system - Champions - as opposed to wasting time on smaller market books.

[zornwil]

I don't believe Hero shouldn't be a universal system. What I believe is that it should be a consistent universal system with all genres using the same benchmarks. Either pick the heroic level or superheroic level benchmarks and make all genres the same way. I would prefer to stretch the NCM threshold to 30 instead of 20. By doing that all games and characters can be designed as interchangeable.

Of course I also have a Champions bias and agree more emphasis should be put in that direction in order to help rejuvenate sales. Unfortunately there are even less Champions products on the 2006 schedule. At the very least I hope DOJ can publish VVV and the CU update, but those are toward the end of 2006, so who knows.

I really don't think any system, including HERO, can be universal in regard to genre benchmarks and objects when the genra themselves are not internally consistent!. This whole "animals in comics" thing is the premier example. Batman can handle Superman, even early on in his career (if we go by Year One, or was it Year Two?) while as you noted other times he has problems with a freaking lion! To me, the only logical reaction to that is "WTF". But it is a writing issue. And across genra, I think scaling is even harder. The dragon is the real threat to the high-level adventuring knight, not the lion, in HIgh Fantasy, whereas same "basic" knight struggles in Low Fantasy against a lion, or, at least, the scale between them is distorted.

Try taking a dang high-level fantasy dragon and putting it up against mid-level superheroes...no contest! But I'd like it to be one. Just have to beef up the dragon is all.

I think the toolkit should give genre- and sub-genre-based bars and examples, but I think that's the best a universal system can do.

I am a Champions fan, big-time, and all my long-running "serious" campaigns have been supers (well, except for Boot Hill a couple decades ago), but I think there's a lot of value in the myriad types of books from HERO. For some people like me, they're actually MORE useful for not being supers because I can get things out of them I really don't know at all and the bonus is it's in game terms I already understand. Actually, I find the supers stuff generally LESS useful and I buy it more out of a combo of loyalty and "this MIGHT have something" since I can afford to do so.

However, I do wonder if there's not too many products coming out of HERO for the market to effectively bear.

I do think Steve is right to tenaciously struggle with putting out more Fantasy products. I think HERO CAN break into Fantasy, but to do so is a MULTI-YEAR strategy. If they can just maintain non-losses and pay the bills for a decade, I think they can continue to grow slowly along the way and along the line, somewhere, "suddenly" become a credible Fantasy provider. Although I do think they'll need a slick, break-through product for that, and that is where I think they'll have to really rethink the current product line strategies. Then again, such a slick, break-through product might also be better in Horror or "Lost Worlds" or Pulp or other areas where there isn't such a market-dominant leader (well, I know CoC is dominant in Horror, but I think that market could be greatly expanded).

[zornwil]

PS - here's my thoughts, btw...a lion (individually) should be a minor but real threat to a 75+75 character.