How do you handle Desolidified Players?

[Fionan]

There is a player in my group who wants to run a hero with the Desolid power. Vuln to Mental and Magic. How can the GM harass or threaten the hero game after game. Esp if hero has an attack useable while desolid. ie phasing through someone.

I'd appreaciate any suggestions.
Thanks.

Fionan.

[Hermit]

Well, I'd take a good look at how common mental or magical attacks are in your group of villains. When Black Palidan throws his mace through someone, being a magical weapon, it may surprise your player. What about a brick who's origin is mystical? Will that count? You need to decide these things. It will help when they inevitiably come up. :)

Also, how well known is the hero and what can affect him/her? If it becomes well known that magic and mental powers can hurt ... more folks will come forewarned and forearmed.

[Fionan]

The Hero is going to be an unknown to begin with. I understand that after he gets a reputation bad guys may be more prepared, but it seems like only if they are expecting him. It seems like the GM, I'm not actually the one running the game, will have to throw magic and mentalists at the party constantly. On the other hand Demon and PSI could become major groups in the city where the game is going to take place. It's easy to get major mileage out of both groups.

Fionan.

[TheTemplar]

Well, per FREd, Desolid is to be purchased as being ineffective against a "reasonably common" group of attacks. This leaves the definition of Reasonably common to the GM's. In this instance, if the tone of the campaign is very mystical/magical/psi-powers based, then I think it could be made to work....however, in MOST campaigns, mystical/magical/psi-powers aren't all that common. Especially if he never has to revert back to a solid state to attack. IMHO, this is character has a high potential to unbalance the game. As a GM, I probably would set the active point caps on powers low enough so that buying Desolid w/ the +2 advantage of "Affects Physical World" required to attack while desolid would be impossible (that's 120 active points by itself w/ no other adv.'s or adders on, I believe..I'm at work and don't have FREd w/ me, but as I recall Desolid is 40 pts. and "APW" is a +2 adv.)

The only way to make this POSSIBLY closer to balancing would be to make the player define additional instances where his desolid won't help him. (Like vs. Fire, or Cold attacks, for instance...something fairly common.)

The alternative, is that you will find yourselves fighting nothing but Mages and Mentalists, because no one else will ever be able to harm him.

my 2 gp.

-T

[Marchwarden]

IMO, Desolid makes for a poor primary means of defense; it's usually either too good or not good enough in any given encounter ("Here come the Ultimates! You're invincible! Now here comes DEMON! You're toast!"). This is usually not fun to play.

Desolid seems to work best in Power Frameworks. A sorcerer with a magic VPP can assume "etherial form" when necessary, but use the points for something else where it wouldn't be appropriate.

A very common model for energy projectors is to buy a Multipower with a 60 AP reserve (a common point cap). The slots will generally be an EB and/or RKA, a selection or two from the Flash/Drain/Entangle/Dispel menu, and Desolid with 0 END (special effect: Fiery Form/Body of Light/Whatever). This last slot is known as the "ejector seat", for reasons which ought to be readily deduced. It's only 6 points, so it can function as a secondary defense while leaving enough points for conventional protection.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by TheTemplar

Desolid w/ the +2 advantage of "Affects Physical World" required to attack while desolid would be impossible (that's 120 active points by itself w/ no other adv.'s or adders on, I believe..I'm at work and don't have FREd w/ me, but as I recall Desolid is 40 pts. and "APW" is a +2 adv.)



APW is an Advantage which has to be bought on OTHER Powers (or STR), not on Desolid itself.

[tesuji]

In "typical" supers games... which is simply a short way of saying "most of them i have participated in or seen, magical and mental would cover the gamut of common.

Of course, IIRC, mental is already a "desolid doesn't help" so it really does not count against the limit.

In addition to those types of attacks that fall under magic and the freebie mental, flashes also work (though it is likely he will buy cheap levels of flash defense.)

Simply put, if the Gm allows magic as common, he IS committing to make magic common.

i would not worry all that much about ARW attacks... they will be so low in damage as to be so slow as to be mostly ineffective. For 60 AP the guy can probably afford 3d6 of NND ARW... doing 10 stun per shot average. At "typical" heroing levels the characters expect to take 15-25 stun per hit.

The Gm should be able to handle this rate of offense, and as long as someone in the gangs have a potential to affect him, flashes are easy from grenades when magic is not available, it should not be a problem.

[Nucleon]

Try these; Presence attacks, Dispels/Supress, Damage shields, People who have the same effect of Desolidifications, and, of course, Affect Desolid.

[BoloOfEarth]

Given the wonderful versatility of Multipowers, I occasionally arm agents with Multi-weapons. And given the decent chance of Desolid escape hatches, I've had agents with Affects Desolid in one of the slots. (Just because that character isn't known doesn't mean they haven't run into other heroes with Desolid...) I've been tempted to throw an Entangle with AD (a neural scrambler) into the mix, too.

So it doesn't have to be magic or mental. It can be multi, too. ;)

[WhammeWhamme]

I'd like to thank BoloOfEarth, without whom this rant would have never been written.

Agents with affects desolid weapons? Yeah, that's *really* reasonable.
Desolidifiation *should* be hard to completely bypass. They're not freaking *there*. An EGO attack blaster setting could be fun tho...

It's a 40+ point power: give them the average of the defense they'd get for say Force Field and some special defenses.

I mean, if the character is supposed to immune to most enemies *let them be immune*. If you don't like that, ban them. It's far more reasonable than making the player wish they'd built a differant, actually effective character. (see, one angers them, the other makes them bitter)

If the PC is invulnerable, whomp the teammates. 2d6 NND's aren't nearly enough when you're the last man standing. Maybe he gets to help save their asses while they're out cold. Woo hoo, they didn't lose as badly!

Heck, whomp the bystanders. While he's plinking away at Strongo, the baby in a pram is in the path of a collapsing building. Looks like he's not taking part in this fight after all...

Steal plots from Superman; he's immune to pretty much anything not magical/mental, (yes, not exactly the same; close enough) and he faces difficult challenges.

A lot of 'by the book' villain teams have a mentalist; they can whomp him easily. Doubly so if they have a mage. Immune to most of your enemies isn't enough; that one rat-bastard can take you to the cleaners...

Superstealthy? Not a problem; they're still visible so security cameras and guards can catch them if they aren't really good at the sneaky (and if they are, they've paid the points for it: LET THEM!)

Don't try to nail the character's power specifically. You shouldn't need to.

[Vondy]

Unless they buy their attacks affects solid +2 they have to become solid to actually engage the enemy. That should be plenty of opportunity right there - especially since attacking ends their action.

They could theoretically try to abort to deso, but the GM can ask for a DEX contest, and aborting costs an action, so it has its own price anyways.

[innominatus]

Keep in mind, D-Man: unless you're surprised by your opponent, you can ALWAYS abort to a defensive action (such as turning on Desolidification).

That having been said, the thing I'd point out to Fionan is that Desolid is a two-way street; the hero may be safe from harm, but he probably can't do much to help his comrades in battle, or help protect civilians. Take advantage of this. Force him into situations where he can't just "turtle up" and wait for the bad guys to run out of ammo, or whatever he hopes to accomplish while Desolid. Force him to go tangible to take the bullet (or energy blast, or whatever) that's aimed at some innocent bystander. (Or sock him with the bad press he'd get if he lets innocents get zorched!) Time is on the Desolid character's side, so don't allow him to play the waiting game -- maybe the heroes have to defeat the villain quickly so they have time to disarm the Doomsday Device before it goes off!

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by innominatus
Keep in mind, D-Man: unless you're surprised by your opponent, you can ALWAYS abort to a defensive action (such as turning on Desolidification).That contradicts what I have always been told about Aborting to a defensive axtion: That once you have attacked or taken a Phase-ending action, you cannot the abort to a defensive action such as Diving for Cover or Blocking.

Our group has always played it that (for example) once the martial artist Martial Kicks the brick, her Phase is over and the brick may then attempt to hit her without her Martial Dodging or other defensive action. Aborting her next Phase to Dodge or Block does not work once she has ended her current Phase.

Is that incorrect? :confused:

[Archon]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
That contradicts what I have always been told about Aborting to a defensive axtion: That once you have attacked or taken a Phase-ending action, you cannot the abort to a defensive action such as Diving for Cover or Blocking.

Our group has always played it that (for example) once the martial artist Martial Kicks the brick, her Phase is over and the brick may then attempt to hit her without her Martial Dodging or other defensive action. Aborting her next Phase to Dodge or Block does not work once she has ended her current Phase.

Is that incorrect? :confused:

As long as you are on the same segment in which the attack took place, no, you cannot abort to a new action. As soon as you move to the next segment, the PC's next action becomes available as an abort action.

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme
I'd like to thank BoloOfEarth, without whom this rant would have never been written.

Agents with affects desolid weapons? Yeah, that's *really* reasonable.
Desolidifiation *should* be hard to completely bypass. They're not freaking *there*. An EGO attack blaster setting could be fun tho...

First of all, I'm assuming from Fionan's post that the character spends much (if not all) of the time Desolid. It doesn't say that explicitly, but if the player makes it possible for the character to attack while Desolid, they're not likely to spend much time any other way.

Next, note that I said "occasionally" as to agents with Multipower weapons. I've also used Variable Advantage to fit various +1/2 Advantages (AP, Penetrating, etc.) onto a gun to simulate different types of ammo. However, the presence of *any* advantage has to be feasible.

Looking through the 4th Edition VIPER sourcebook, I see two Affects Desolid weapons, plus the agents in the BBB had an Affects Deolid weapon too. Any reasonably large agency (including the government :)) would expend money and effort to handle all enemies, including (or especially) those that are difficult to hit or harm. Such weapons shouldn't be common, but they should at least be available.

As to the cost of Desolidification affording them some protection, it does. That +1/2 only makes it *possible* to hit the character. It doesn't do anything to increase probability to hit or the level of damage. In fact, if you're going off a point limit, this guarantees the attack will be lower than normal. A 60-point cap means you only have an 8d6 attack. Hardly something to leave heroes quaking in their boots, even at low defense levels. (At average 28 STUN, it wouldn't even CON-stun somebody with 15 total ED and 13 CON.)

As to attacking innocents to force him to solidify, in my experience the desolid guy stays that way unless he's the *only* one that can save the civilians. I guess the reasoning is, that's what teammates are for. If Desolid is the character's primary defense, he isn't going to drop it unless it's absolutely necessary.

Let's not forget that the character may *always* be Desolid, making that strategy fairly moot.

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

A lot of 'by the book' villain teams have a mentalist; they can whomp him easily. Doubly so if they have a mage. Immune to most of your enemies isn't enough; that one rat-bastard can take you to the cleaners...


I don't know if your games are different from the ones I've played in or run, but the mentalist seems to be Target #1 every time, especially to the person(s) that can only be affected by said mentalist. Even people with Mental Defense seem to want to trounce the mentalist first. Martial Artists, Bricks, and high-flying Energy Projectors all fear the Mentalist due to the advantages of mental powers cancelling out *their* advantages. Somebody should start a Mentalist Anti-Defamation League or something.

Mages come next on the To-Hit parade owing to the fact that most are very versatile. Pity the poor mage/mentalist. Sucks to be him.

(Edited to correct spelling error.)

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth
I don't know if your games are different from the ones I've played in or run, but the mentalist seems to be Target #1 every time, especially to the person(s) that can only be affected by said mentalist. Even people with Mental Defense seem to want to trounce the mentalist first. Martial Artists, Bricks, and high-flying Energy Projectors all fear the Mentalist due to the advantages of mental powers cancelling out *their* advantages. Somebody should start a Mentalist Anti-Defamation League or something.

Mages come next on the To-Hit parade owing to the fact that most are very versatile. Pity the poor mage/mentalist. Sucks to be him.

(Edited to correct spelling error.)

It was like that in my games too, anytime a npc mentalist would show up on the battle field, the instant he or she was spotted it was "beat up the Psi guy" time. Wonder if Mages have simular problems in other genre?

[Tim]

Wow! you have a player that can go desolid? I didn't realize that powers actually existed.

Is he a hero IRL? What other powers does he have?

:p

TimS.

[innominatus]

Of course you can't Abort to a defensive action during a Segment where you've already acted, Trebuchet; I didn't think that even needed to be said.

[Lord Liaden]

Since Desolid is vulnerable to powers defined as Mental Powers under the 5E rules (Mind Control, Ego Attack, etc.) that really wouldn't count as part of the special effects that the player has defined his character as being vulnerable. You might suggest to your GM that "mental powers" can be the SFX of other types of Powers that may be possessed by more supers: Energy Blast, Telekinesis, Entangle or others with "psionic energy" as their effect. With some of the broader interpretations of "magic" suggested earlier, that should provide enough variety that villain encounters won't all feel the same.

I agree that an Active Point cap would keep an Affects Solid World Power from being strong enough to act as a character's primary attack, so he or she would have to go solid to use other options. Ultimately, though, if you can justify having Desolid and pay the points for it, you've earned the right to laugh at enemies' attacks whizzing harmlessly through you at least some of the time. ;)

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth
First of all, I'm assuming from Fionan's post that the character spends much (if not all) of the time Desolid. It doesn't say that explicitly, but if the player makes it possible for the character to attack while Desolid, they're not likely to spend much time any other way.

Next, note that I said "occasionally" as to agents with Multipower weapons. I've also used Variable Advantage to fit various +1/2 Advantages (AP, Penetrating, etc.) onto a gun to simulate different types of ammo. However, the presence of *any* advantage has to be feasible.

Looking through the 4th Edition VIPER sourcebook, I see two Affects Desolid weapons, plus the agents in the BBB had an Affects Deolid weapon too. Any reasonably large agency (including the government :)) would expend money and effort to handle all enemies, including (or especially) those that are difficult to hit or harm. Such weapons shouldn't be common, but they should at least be available.

As to the cost of Desolidification affording them some protection, it does. That +1/2 only makes it *possible* to hit the character. It doesn't do anything to increase probability to hit or the level of damage. In fact, if you're going off a point limit, this guarantees the attack will be lower than normal. A 60-point cap means you only have an 8d6 attack. Hardly something to leave heroes quaking in their boots, even at low defense levels. (At average 28 STUN, it wouldn't even CON-stun somebody with 15 total ED and 13 CON.)

As to attacking innocents to force him to solidify, in my experience the desolid guy stays that way unless he's the *only* one that can save the civilians. I guess the reasoning is, that's what teammates are for. If Desolid is the character's primary defense, he isn't going to drop it unless it's absolutely necessary.

Let's not forget that the character may *always* be Desolid, making that strategy fairly moot.

Ah yes. The good old 'but it's in this book here'.
Note that both your examples predate 5th (and the changes to affects desolid), and use the sfx 'magnetic particles that can affect intangible opponent's'.
Now, the problem is that in a Mechanical system, powers actual effect can vary so widely. What kind of technobabble can explain a weapon that can affect:

A) An Astral Projection (affected by mental SFX)

B) Someone Dimensionally shifted (Affected by magic/dimensional)

C) A cloud of mist (Affected by wind/AoE)

D) A swarm of bees (affected by AoE)

E) Hyper-Fast Vibration (affected by Sonics/Cold)
etc.

?

Yes, they'd *like* to have that kind of weapon. But even the EGO Blaster is more reasonable (this gizmo here is modelled on the neural pathways of TXV130; remember, the sentient psychic robot? Yes, it can only simulate the simplest functions; we in retro-engineering had a bit of difficulty, okay?)

Universal Affects Desolid is a load of hooey. 1 in 10 times it's been used it should really apply.

'They might miss' ? Generally, you can say this wouldn't change the effect; a miss is a miss, no matter whether you've got 5 PD or 500.

60pt cap? Generally that gets applied as 10d6, as AD doesn't increase damage, just effectiveness.

Oh, and if he's Desolid *and* has good defense, he's still spent many more point's than those with more efficacious power sets. (I mean, T-port and higher defenses simulates most of desolid right there).

And who said anything about forcing him to solidify? Attack innocents to let the bad guys fulfill their mission. Sure, he's still conscious, but they got away with the loot (or whatever). Heck, if you've got a villain with enough defense (including a defense vs his probably NND attack) they can ignore him altogether.

You should ask yourself: He spent about 100pts on this power alone. Is he getting enough mileage out of that?
I mean, affects solid world is pricey, and desolid isn't exactly cheap either. They *should* be effective.
Do you hit the brick with nothing but NND's? Do you always give every villain 30pts of mental defense? So why completely hose the guy who can walk through walls?

Now, if the enemy *specifically* wants to take down the hero team, and they know about him, that's the time to bring in about 3-5 mages/mentalists to hammer him. But that shouldn't be the whole time.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by innominatus
Of course you can't Abort to a defensive action during a Segment where you've already acted, Trebuchet; I didn't think that even needed to be said. I didn't either, but your original comment: "unless you're surprised by your opponent, you can ALWAYS abort to a defensive action (such as turning on Desolidification)" had me wondering if you had it wrong or I did.

Turns out we were both right, it was just a little miscommunication. :D

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme
Ah yes. The good old 'but it's in this book here'.
Note that both your examples predate 5th (and the changes to affects desolid), and use the sfx 'magnetic particles that can affect intangible opponent's'.
Now, the problem is that in a Mechanical system, powers actual effect can vary so widely. What kind of technobabble can explain a weapon that can affect:

A) An Astral Projection (affected by mental SFX)

B) Someone Dimensionally shifted (Affected by magic/dimensional)

C) A cloud of mist (Affected by wind/AoE)

D) A swarm of bees (affected by AoE)

E) Hyper-Fast Vibration (affected by Sonics/Cold)
etc.



Considering both technobabble and game mechanics, I'd say a burst of ultra-bright light (AVLD vs. Sight Flash Defense, Affects Desolidified), bright enough to cause pain. Or a sonic disruptor (same thing, but vs. Hearing Flash Defense). Unless they're deaf or blind, they're still seeing and hearing the real world, so SFX based on those senses should transfer over. Or for the ultra-tech crowd, how about a gravitic shear grenade? (As GM, I'd give it a -0 Limitation that it doesn't affect Astral Projections; I'm not sure on the Dimensional Shift, though it seems they're still subject to gravity.)

The reality is that the GM has to set the level of credibility, including with Affects Desolid. As GM, I've ruled some things in direct and complete opposition to the rules simply because SFX or the situation took precedence. That's the GM's job.



Universal Affects Desolid is a load of hooey. 1 in 10 times it's been used it should really apply.


Universal *anything* is a load of hooey in the HERO system. There is no "Invulnerable" or "Unstoppable" in HERO, though you can come close if you throw enough points at it.



60pt cap? Generally that gets applied as 10d6, as AD doesn't increase damage, just effectiveness.


Not in a Multipower it doesn't. A 60-point pool gives you a mere 8d6, less if you have other Advantages.



And who said anything about forcing him to solidify?


innominatus, for one.

I have to run, so I can't continue with this right now. Suffice to say, I'm not trying to hose the Desolid guy. I was just trying to point out a possible way to affect the character *without* resorting to the Mage and Mentalist of the Day. Affects Desolid isn't common in my games. Just a suggestion.

[CrosshairCollie]

Random question: What's the details on the Affects-Physical-World power that this guy has?

Secondly, as far as 'universal affects desolid' goes, I'd like to quote (well, paraphrase), the Champions genre book: "A good explanation is worth more than scientific accuracy." So long as it sounds good, it doesn't have to be scientifically feasible.

What's the special effect for his Desolidifying, again? I can't recall if you said what it was.

Unless he's making the rest of the PCs seem utterly superfluous, you should let him continue as it goes without 'targetting' him, unless he's running into the same people a lot. If they run into your Pet Villain Team often, they should start learning how to deal with 'those constant annoyances!'.

On a personal level, I've always ruled that characters with identical Desolidification special effects can affect each other normally. That could be a rude surprise.

[JmOz]

My solution to this problem is actualy quite simple, if a character takes affects solid world he MUST have a hunted that has powers that effect the character while desolid, or to be more honest the character will have a 8- hunted at the very least, if they choose not to take such disad, well they don't get the points but do get the hunted (Most choose to take the hunted)

To be honest though it has only come up once or twice, the one time I rememebr was on a mage character, who's desolid was effected by magical attacks, it was easy enough to justify a hunted

[Fionan]

The special effect for the Desolid is a technological suit the would adjust the vibrational frequency to walk through things. The attack that affects the real world is partially phasing their hand though someone. Overall I think the affect is similar to the Vision of the Avengers, if I remember right.

Thanks for the insights, they've helped a lot. :)

Fionan.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme
I'd like to thank BoloOfEarth, without whom this rant would have never been written.

Agents with affects desolid weapons? Yeah, that's *really* reasonable.
Desolidifiation *should* be hard to completely bypass. They're not freaking *there*. An EGO attack blaster setting could be fun tho...

It's a 40+ point power: give them the average of the defense they'd get for say Force Field and some special defenses.

I mean, if the character is supposed to immune to most enemies *let them be immune*. If you don't like that, ban them. It's far more reasonable than making the player wish they'd built a differant, actually effective character. (see, one angers them, the other makes them bitter)

If the PC is invulnerable, whomp the teammates. 2d6 NND's aren't nearly enough when you're the last man standing. Maybe he gets to help save their asses while they're out cold. Woo hoo, they didn't lose as badly!

Heck, whomp the bystanders. While he's plinking away at Strongo, the baby in a pram is in the path of a collapsing building. Looks like he's not taking part in this fight after all...

Steal plots from Superman; he's immune to pretty much anything not magical/mental, (yes, not exactly the same; close enough) and he faces difficult challenges.

A lot of 'by the book' villain teams have a mentalist; they can whomp him easily. Doubly so if they have a mage. Immune to most of your enemies isn't enough; that one rat-bastard can take you to the cleaners...

Superstealthy? Not a problem; they're still visible so security cameras and guards can catch them if they aren't really good at the sneaky (and if they are, they've paid the points for it: LET THEM!)

Don't try to nail the character's power specifically. You shouldn't need to.

Haven't read the rest of the thread, but had to reply to this post.

YES!

I mean... let the player actually be EFFECTIVE! He's putting 40 pts. into defense. Let him be hard to hurt!

Only if this player is a total munchkin, is this a problem. Any attack that has to have a +2 advantage has to be so low in inital active points it will likely bounce off of others defenses.

Unless you let the player do EVERYTHING... high defenses AND high attack AND high speed AND high movement... then this should be fine.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Fionan: Personally I would not allow attacks while the PC is Desolid especially if it is his primary attack. It is just too problematic. Here is what I have done in the past...

There is a good way to get the Vision special effect without buying the +2 advantage. This method also prevent the attack while Desolid "heart burn". Just buy the attack (RKA with Penetrating or whatever) and put a limitation that the attack only works as the PC is coming out of Disolid. Get it? This way the PC is not actually attacking while Desolid. Everyone wins. The PC gets his cool special effect and the GM does not have to worry about attacking while Desolid. ;)

[Talon]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
Only if this player is a total munchkin, is this a problem.

I've found there to be a significant correlation between this power construct and munchkins. (Non-munchkins will usually have some sort of limitation already built-in.) Personally, I'd err on the side of caution and not allow it unless (as has been stated above) the duration of the Desolid was short, the damage level of the attack was low, or some other mitigating factors apply.

If you do allow it, you should let the player take advantage of it -- they did pay a lot of points for it, after all. The difficulty lies in making sure they get enough use, but not too much.

[TheEmerged]

Want to be real evil? Depending on the effect of the desolidification power, it may well be very reasonable to allow Desolidification to be Dispelled without the Dispel have Affects Desolid. This is very dependent on the effect, however.

RE: Agents with Affects Desolid. Shouldn't be too common? I beg to differ. In a world in which X is a threat, people are going to develop countermeasures against X. If that world has sufficient "black boxes" (methods by which they can "do stuff") -- and most superheroic campaigns have black boxes by the metric ton -- those countermeasures won't be hard to develop at all.

Bottom Line. The most important line with Desolidification is that there has to be a reasonably common way to bypass it. "Reasonably common" will vary from campaign to campaign and GM to GM; for example I've discovered that Dispels are way more common in my campaigns than they appear to be in most.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Tamashii2000
It was like that in my games too, anytime a npc mentalist would show up on the battle field, the instant he or she was spotted it was "beat up the Psi guy" time. Wonder if Mages have simular problems in other genre? Given that most mental powers are invisible, how does that happen? Do the mentalists all have a big M on their costume. My mentalist is not that easy to pick out and if you spot him, there is a good cahnce that its because you are obeying a telepathic command:D
Seriously, tactics should dictate how a mentalist keeps from being an obvious first target every time.

[CrosshairCollie]

Originally posted by Fionan
The special effect for the Desolid is a technological suit the would adjust the vibrational frequency to walk through things. The attack that affects the real world is partially phasing their hand though someone. Overall I think the affect is similar to the Vision of the Avengers, if I remember right.



Actually, The Vision's desolidification is based on density manipulation, not vibrations; he shunts mass into some extradimensional space; when he does his hand-in-the-chest attack, he summons a small amount of that mass back, and the law of physics that says two things can't exist in the same place at the same time kicks in.

Personally, I would have ruled that the reasonably common attack for a vibro-suit (stop snickering!) would have been Sonics or Vibrational powers rather than Magic, which are a tad more common and easier for technology to duplicate.

[BoloOfEarth]

Originally posted by Mentor
Given that most mental powers are invisible, how does that happen?

Anybody targeted by an Ego Attack or Mind Scan automatically knows the source of the attack, and anybody with a mental power or somehow can justify buying Mental Awareness may see the attack (unless the power is bought IPE). Anybody hit by other mental attacks and then breaks free knows the source of the attack at that time.

And most of the time, *anybody* aware of a mental attack screams it out to his/her teammates. In a superhero game, it's kinda like calling in artillery or an airstrike.

As a GM, I'm a big non-fan of Sniper Mentalists unless they have next to no defenses. I refrain from using NPC mentalists that way unless it's key to a plot (which is rare), or a PC mentalist is overusing that tactic.

Sorry for going off topic. Back to the discussion at hand.

[TheEmerged]

/humor on
Hint: look for the following

>Bald guy with big head, possibly in a wheelchair, fond of placing his hands on his temples (the "mentalist head clutch")
>Goth type with weird glows coming from their eyes or head
>unbelievably attractive females -- oh wait, that's everything lacking a Y chromosone in comics :rolleyes:

/humor off

Had this come up recently in a 3D&D session. The DM was relatively new to DMing and tried to make a big deal about how we knew which one was the wizard. "I look for the person that's stupid enough to be this deep in a dungeon without wearing armor and isn't standing in a kung-fu stance. Chances are, that's the wizard."

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Mentor
My mentalist is not that easy to pick out and if you spot him, there is a good cahnce that its because you are obeying a telepathic command:

Seriously, tactics should dictate how a mentalist keeps from being an obvious first target every time. Mentor plays his mentalist Prodigy in my game. Trust me, his primary means of defense is not being spotted, because his basic defenses suck and to erect a telekinetic Force Field or Force Wall around himself with his 90 pt. VPP takes too much of his power from his attacks. In the last scenario his character and mine played in together (Run by our third co-GM, Blackjack), my character spent virtually the entire fight acting as Prodigy's bodyguard so he could go to town on the magic-based opponents we were fighting. The opponents were too tough for my character to hurt, so protecting another character was her best move to help her teammates.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by D-Man
Unless they buy their attacks affects solid +2 they have to become solid to actually engage the enemy. That should be plenty of opportunity right there - especially since attacking ends their action.

They could theoretically try to abort to deso, but the GM can ask for a DEX contest, and aborting costs an action, so it has its own price anyways.

So?

1. They can't do it on the same segment. Villians can hold actions, too.

2. Aborting costs actions, which reduces effectiveness.

I don't think desolidification mertis any special attention from the GM.

If they paid 40+ points for a power they deserve to be able to use it.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by D-Man
So?

1. They can't do it on the same segment. Villians can hold actions, too.

2. Aborting costs actions, which reduces effectiveness.

I don't think desolidification mertis any special attention from the GM.

If they paid 40+ points for a power they deserve to be able to use it. I agree. It is a good GMs job to challenge the desolid character without hosing him. Use of the special effect that affects the individual desolid character should happen occasionally, not every game. Same with mentalists, etc. Likewise, no munchkin PC abilities.

It all comes back to trust on the part of both the GM and player that neither will design a PC/NPC just to screw the game over.

[BarryB]

I agree with those that argue that desolid ought to be a useful ability. Whether the desolid with an affects solid attack is overbalancing really depends on the GM. Some GMs can find ways of challenging the character; others cannot. I don't consider it a flaw in the GM that he or she cannot or will not challenge the character. Otherwise excellent stories might not admit of such challenges.

The special effect of the affects solid attack allows for a number of potential defenses. In my opinion, no defense should be used frequently. Damage shield is one of most obvious, affecting the hand that is solidified. Since the hand remains solidified for the segment, there are all kinds of potential attacks, depending on whether the target can access the soldified hand. I would force a DEX roll on whether the hand has penetrated through and so is accessible or not.

A question that should be considered is the power of the affects desolid attack. Can it take down most megavillains with a single shot? Then it probably is overpowered. If you look in comics, the affects desolid attacks take out agents with a single shot or act as a coup de grace with lower level villains, but rarely takes out supervillains in a single shot. You might consider limiting its power, thus allowing the character to be effective, but not overbalancing.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Mentor
Given that most mental powers are invisible, how does that happen? Do the mentalists all have a big M on their costume. My mentalist is not that easy to pick out and if you spot him, there is a good cahnce that its because you are obeying a telepathic command:D
Seriously, tactics should dictate how a mentalist keeps from being an obvious first target every time.

The Party's mentalist normaly pointed him out, or the victim of the ego attack screamed the fact that such and such was a mentalist at the top of his lungs:eek:

[CrosshairCollie]

Finding the mentalist is a lot like the wizard scenario, actually. For a time, our group's battle cry was 'Beat Up The Scrawny Guy'.

[TheTemplar]

Ghaaaaa! Good Lord did THIS thread explode over the weekend! :D

The one point that I haven't heard mentioned yet - I may have overlooked it, if so, my apologies - in regards to this character is that he has a high potential to frustrate the rest of your players.

He can attack opponents while being completely invulnerable to all but some highly uncommon forms of attack - being Mental, Magic, or anything bought as affects desolid. That's an awfully powerful combo, IMHO. Ok, so his one attack that he can use while Desolid isn't all that terribly powerful. (How is all of this built, btw? Multipower? Some other framework?) Still, the fact that he will never be forced to go solid in combat gives him (again, IMHO) a tremendous advantage over the rest of the PC's. This advantage, in addition to the fact that he can walk through walls and the other non-combat effects of desolid.

IMHO (lots of those in this post, eh? ) combat is the level playing field for your PC's..with the possible exception of Bricks, who typically don't get many other opportunities to showcase their talents. All players want to feel like their character is critical to the team, particularly in combat. Giving one player that huge of an advantage over the foes is going to inevitably cause at least one, if not more of your players, to feel like they simply aren't needed.

To give a similar example: The campaign I was playing in most recently had a character with a Cosmic VPP. Yes, he paid the points for it, and it cost him alot. However, he was tremendously unbalancing - especially in combat - and that led to some feelings of resentment from the players toward that PC which tended to get played out by their PC's to his PC. (We're all good enough friends that there were no hard feelings between players, obviously..but in the case of a group that hasn't known eachother for a while, this could even lead to conflicts taking place totally out of the context of the game.)

To sum up, we were asked how we, as GM's would deal w/ a character like this. My response was that , in the interest of game balance, I simply would not allow it. I'm certainly not trying to change the minds of anyone who would allow such a character, this is all just..(ready? last one!) IMHO. :D

-T

[Velocity]

I personally have a PC who has a high combat value, and a desolid with a mutable trigger on it ( 60 Active points in a multipower...yes I know....everyone groan, but I wanted to be able to pull off the Barry Allen/Wally West desolid before a guy hits me trick). Then again I defined my desolid having a commonly affected SFX (Sound/Vibration attacks), I have no super-senses to keep me from turning it on if I get suprised, and worst of all...I'm soooooooo mentalist bait. More than that my PD and ED are 10 with only 5 of that being resistant for Killing Attacks (except for the extra PD I bought only usable for collisions so I don't stun myself with a move-by or die outright if I hit a wall at combat speed!).

I just think each PC has their own way of building defenses that fit a concept. My take on speedsters is that they either don't get hit, or have a way around it. If they get hit, they're in trouble. Also keep in mind that a base desoild is 40 Active points, that means you spent 40 points on a defensive/utility power that does cost END before any advantages or disadvantages, and you can't do much while in that state short of buying advantages. And finally desoild has a stop sign, it's up to the GM to handle what a PC can and can't have.

[Fedifensor]

There are other ways to challenge a desolid character besides giving the bad guys the ability to hit him.

Here's some scenarios that require the desolid character to do more than stay desolid and strike with an Affects Real World power:
* The superheroes need to protect someone. Since Affects Real World is a +2 advantage, any attack by a desolid character (assuming active point limits) will do little to stop an attacker before they can reach the target.
* The heroes need to save someone. The desolid character could certainly be useful in helping scout out the area, or in disabling the bad guys...but what happens when the villain threatens to kill the hostage unless the hero turns solid?
* The heroes need to catch someone. If the villain is attemping to flee instead of fight, the desolid character needs to have the movement to keep up with them, or a ranged attack powerful enough to stop the villain before they get out of range.
* If the desolid character has skills that require him to be solid (lockpicking, etc), insert situations that require the use of those skills. Of course, this only works if the character doesn't have Affects Real World on STR.

[death tribble]

I handle desolidified characters with my extra special gloves especially the female ones....

Oh you want help with a game mechanic ! Whistles

Nothing to see here move along, nothing to see here move along !

[Osprey]

I have a PC that is similar to the discussed character.

She's hunted by the Ghostbusters[tm] and DEMON!

'Nuff Said?

[Tech]

Originally posted by Fionan
There is a player in my group who wants to run a hero with the Desolid power. Vuln to Mental and Magic. How can the GM harass or threaten the hero game after game. Esp if hero has an attack useable while desolid. ie phasing through someone.

I'd appreaciate any suggestions.
Thanks.

Fionan.

Sorry, I haven't read many of the posts for this one but have you tried hitting him on the head with a magic brick? :D

By the mere fact he's be able to get an attack affecting the real world while desolid was a problem if you as GM, didn't want it. However, be as it may, he is vulnerable to mental and magic. There's always PSI, full of mental-power wielding villains. Black Paladin was mentioned and don't forget Dark Seraph.

You can always create a nemesis, a villain who's read the papers and decides for whatever reason this particular hero really needs to be taken down a peg; this hero gets under their skin and needs to be trashed. Create this villain. This villain (for no extra disadvantage pts) likes to hunt the hero, perhaps with an Invis Ego Attack, affects desolid. Maybe a Drain vs Dex, affects Desolid.

Just throwing out a couple cents worth of suggestions.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme
Ah yes. The good old 'but it's in this book here'.
Note that both your examples predate 5th (and the changes to affects desolid), and use the sfx 'magnetic particles that can affect intangible opponent's'.
Now, the problem is that in a Mechanical system, powers actual effect can vary so widely. What kind of technobabble can explain a weapon that can affect:

A) An Astral Projection (affected by mental SFX)

B) Someone Dimensionally shifted (Affected by magic/dimensional)

C) A cloud of mist (Affected by wind/AoE)

D) A swarm of bees (affected by AoE)

E) Hyper-Fast Vibration (affected by Sonics/Cold)
etc.

?

Yes, they'd *like* to have that kind of weapon. But even the EGO Blaster is more reasonable (this gizmo here is modelled on the neural pathways of TXV130; remember, the sentient psychic robot? Yes, it can only simulate the simplest functions; we in retro-engineering had a bit of difficulty, okay?)

Universal Affects Desolid is a load of hooey. 1 in 10 times it's been used it should really apply.

'They might miss' ? Generally, you can say this wouldn't change the effect; a miss is a miss, no matter whether you've got 5 PD or 500.

60pt cap? Generally that gets applied as 10d6, as AD doesn't increase damage, just effectiveness.

Oh, and if he's Desolid *and* has good defense, he's still spent many more point's than those with more efficacious power sets. (I mean, T-port and higher defenses simulates most of desolid right there).

And who said anything about forcing him to solidify? Attack innocents to let the bad guys fulfill their mission. Sure, he's still conscious, but they got away with the loot (or whatever). Heck, if you've got a villain with enough defense (including a defense vs his probably NND attack) they can ignore him altogether.

You should ask yourself: He spent about 100pts on this power alone. Is he getting enough mileage out of that?
I mean, affects solid world is pricey, and desolid isn't exactly cheap either. They *should* be effective.
Do you hit the brick with nothing but NND's? Do you always give every villain 30pts of mental defense? So why completely hose the guy who can walk through walls?

Now, if the enemy *specifically* wants to take down the hero team, and they know about him, that's the time to bring in about 3-5 mages/mentalists to hammer him. But that shouldn't be the whole time.

Hip Hip Hurrah
Hip Hip Hurrah
Hip Hip Hurrah!

Desolid either should not have to have that "reasonably common special effect" limit or the "Affects Desolid" advantage should be eliminated (I prefer the latter solution). Having both is a solid hose (plus "affects Desolid" is an entirely game mechanical advantage that escapes special effect limits that powers are supposed to built on, since it explains affecting every type of desolid).

Actually, should NND attacks affect desolid characters all the time, or only when their special effects correspond to the desolidifications vulnerability? I'm inclined to say no, because while desolidification has some defensive aspects, I don't thik of it as a "defense" power.

[Mystendanian]

change spaceball one into...
('boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom')...
MEGAMAID
and commence operation "Vacu-suck!"