How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

[ThealaSildorian]

I'm currently working on converting an AD&D character to Hero System. This character has had a permanent <i>mind blank</i> spell cast on him: the result of which is anyone who tries to read his mind reads only uninteresting or trivial thoughts.

I'm trying to figure out how to translate this to Hero terms. I thought about buying Invisibility to Mental Senses, Telepathy Only (-1/2), no fringe for 15 pts.

I know I could simply buy lots of Mental Defense, but this isn't the answer. Mental Defense is fairly easy to overcome, especially in a fantasy game. And the special effect of the spell is supposed to be an automatic thing.

I did think maybe Mental Illusions might be a better choice. Any ideas?

Theala

[Steve Long]

Since this is a "how to" and not a rules question per se, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so that Herodom Assembled can offer its many and varied opinions. ;) What do you think, peoples?

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, I guess it's fair Steve wouldn't know, since I read his mind as soon as I saw this post in Rules Discussion...and sure enough, it's been moved.

I'm inclined to agree you can be Invisible to telepathy and leave it at that. Another approach would be boosted Ego and Damage Reduction versus Telepathy only. Try getting past a 30 EGO when your Telepathy is reduced to 75%.

Which approach probably depends on whether you want Telepathy to be effective. If you allow the Invisibility approach, pretty much anyopne who wants to buy the ability will be able to do so since it is only 15 points. If, instead, you require sufficient Mental Defense/Ego/Damage Reduction to make telepathy ineffective, the cost becomes pretty steep so very few people will have this ability.

[Fox1]

Telepathy and Mind Scanning are not standard sense powers and don't follow the standard sense rules. You don't make perception rolls to read minds. Given this, it's hard to rationally justify invisibility or images being useful on them.

I have two suggestions.

Option 1:

Approach it from the other side. Put a limit on any Telepathy bought in the game that it is ineffective against Mental Defense equal to or exceeding value X.

You have your needed absolute there, and without bending any rules. You can apply the same concept to any number of other poweres requiring such absolutes.


Option 2:

In any attempt to do a AD&D conversion, you're going to run into the fact that AD&D loves absolutes and rule overrides and HERO doesn't. The two games are very different in their approach to that point.

So you're going to have to accept the one concept or the other- and flatly break with the other game on it.

So with that in mind, do it however you want. Just be aware that anyone who selected the other way will likely consider your constructions illegal.

[RDU Neil]

I'm currently working on converting an AD&D character to Hero System. This character has had a permanent <i>mind blank</i> spell cast on him: the result of which is anyone who tries to read his mind reads only uninteresting or trivial thoughts.

I'm trying to figure out how to translate this to Hero terms. I thought about buying Invisibility to Mental Senses, Telepathy Only (-1/2), no fringe for 15 pts.

I know I could simply buy lots of Mental Defense, but this isn't the answer. Mental Defense is fairly easy to overcome, especially in a fantasy game. And the special effect of the spell is supposed to be an automatic thing.

I did think maybe Mental Illusions might be a better choice. Any ideas?

Theala

Once again, this is a question of how to create an "absolute effect" and that is not something Hero is designed to do. I personally like this about Hero, because absolute only exists until something is powerful enough to break it comes along. An immovable object is only immovable until something strong enough to move it shows up.

Now... as to the best way to APPROXIMATE this in Hero... I'd go with Damage Reduction - Mental. I've never allowed this power, because just a little bit of it makes most Mental Powers useless, by reducing their effect way below Ego + whatever needed.

Something like 75% Mental Damage Reduction, Only vs. Telepathy... that would likely keep anything but Cosmic Level telepathy from getting more than just above Ego. Therefore, all they get is surface thoughts at best.

I'm also interested in why you think "Lots of Mental Defense" is easy to overcome in a Fantasy game. Heck, it is often not easy to overcome in a supers game where that is a known factor... let alone Fantasy. I'm actually intrigued why you think this to be true?

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm also interested in why you think "Lots of Mental Defense" is easy to overcome in a Fantasy game. Heck, it is often not easy to overcome in a supers game where that is a known factor... let alone Fantasy. I'm actually intrigued why you think this to be true?

Penetraing Cumulative mental powers? So it takes an hour - I know everything the target/prisoner had to tell me. If I'm scanning him through my Crystal Ball, I have all the time in the world, and my target just thinks he or she had a bad dream.

[RDU Neil]

Penetraing Cumulative mental powers? So it takes an hour - I know everything the target/prisoner had to tell me. If I'm scanning him through my Crystal Ball, I have all the time in the world, and my target just thinks he or she had a bad dream.

Such an attack isn't specific to a fantasy campaign... it is simply a munchkin build for mental attacks that would be seriously frowned at in any genre. Also... nothing about a build like that is "easy." It is a very nuanced, granular build that is highly specialized.

As to the crystal ball... doesn't matter if it is long distance... as soon as you are hit by a mental attack, you know you've been attacked... so you'd already have to have +30 to make it "not noticed" which is really next to impossible against 75% DR.

Again... not saying it can't be done. We are imagining stuff here... ANYTHING is possible... but I was intrigued as to why she seemed to consider it so easy for Fantasy in particular. (In fact, her post kind of implies that it is easy in Fantasy as a genre... not so much as Fantasy Hero. Like ANY Fantasy genre game would be "easy" to bypass mental defense. That just makes me curious, is all.)

[ThealaSildorian]

Since this is a "how to" and not a rules question per se, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so that Herodom Assembled can offer its many and varied opinions. ;) What do you think, peoples?

My apologies and my thanks. I figured since I was asking a question on how to create a power, that made it a rules question. It was late when I wrote my original post, DOH!

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Well, I guess it's fair Steve wouldn't know, since I read his mind as soon as I saw this post in Rules Discussion...and sure enough, it's been moved.

I'm inclined to agree you can be Invisible to telepathy and leave it at that. Another approach would be boosted Ego and Damage Reduction versus Telepathy only. Try getting past a 30 EGO when your Telepathy is reduced to 75%.

Which approach probably depends on whether you want Telepathy to be effective. If you allow the Invisibility approach, pretty much anyopne who wants to buy the ability will be able to do so since it is only 15 points. If, instead, you require sufficient Mental Defense/Ego/Damage Reduction to make telepathy ineffective, the cost becomes pretty steep so very few people will have this ability.

Well, this character is meant to be an NPC, so the GM (meaning me) doesn't have to allow players to buy that, assuming they think of it, and assuming they can formulate a reason why they'd be able to do it--I should think only very powerful spellcasters could do it since <i>mind bland</i> an 8th level spell.

Mental Damag Reduction is a possibility I hadn't considered, would be far more effective than simply tons of Mental Defense. Though I'm not sure either really fit the special effect that person attempting to read a mind would view only trivial or uninteresting thoughts, which is the special effect of the <mind blank>. It's more than simply a matter of absolute effect (which are near impossible to achieve in Hero). If someone uses Telepathy and can't get in, he knows he's being blocked by Defenses, doesn't he?

Theala

[Hugh Neilson]

As to the crystal ball... doesn't matter if it is long distance... as soon as you are hit by a mental attack, you know you've been attacked... so you'd already have to have +30 to make it "not noticed" which is really next to impossible against 75% DR.

IPE, although I believe you need to buy it separately for "while it accumulates" to prevent the target noticing. Small cumulative dice take a long time to have an effect, but advantages stack pretty cheap.


Again... not saying it can't be done. We are imagining stuff here... ANYTHING is possible... but I was intrigued as to why she seemed to consider it so easy for Fantasy in particular. (In fact, her post kind of implies that it is easy in Fantasy as a genre... not so much as Fantasy Hero. Like ANY Fantasy genre game would be "easy" to bypass mental defense. That just makes me curious, is all.)

I'd be more inclined to accept it in a fantasy game, simply because it is genre. The crystal ball, unnpoticed, eventually succeeds. In a Supers game, it doesn't really fit.

[ThealaSildorian]

Telepathy and Mind Scanning are not standard sense powers and don't follow the standard sense rules. You don't make perception rolls to read minds. Given this, it's hard to rationally justify invisibility or images being useful on them.

Good point, though I would argue that mental illusions are a form of "images" that simply follow different rules--for the reason you outlined.




I have two suggestions.

Option 1:

Approach it from the other side. Put a limit on any Telepathy bought in the game that it is ineffective against Mental Defense equal to or exceeding value X.



Interesting idea, and if I were going to keep this character strictly for my private use I would. However, I have thoughts of sharing this character with other people, and he needs to be able to be used in other people's games or at conventions.




<snip>

Option 2:

In any attempt to do a AD&D conversion, you're going to run into the fact that AD&D loves absolutes and rule overrides and HERO doesn't. The two games are very different in their approach to that point.

So you're going to have to accept the one concept or the other- and flatly break with the other game on it.

So with that in mind, do it however you want. Just be aware that anyone who selected the other way will likely consider your constructions illegal.

I don't think I need to "flatly break" the Hero System. Even if I go with Invisibility or Mental Illusions some clever player will probably come up with a way around it. Invisibiility always gets a Perception roll, even if bought No Fringe. Hmm. I'm beginning to think I should look closer at Mental Illusions, Trigged by Telepathy, which still needs to overcome EGO to work.

What I'm most looking for is the best way to structure the Power that fits the special effect. While te AD&D spell is an "absolute", and I do want to come as close to that as I can, I know from experience it's impossible. :winkgrin:

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

<snip>

I'm also interested in why you think "Lots of Mental Defense" is easy to overcome in a Fantasy game. Heck, it is often not easy to overcome in a supers game where that is a known factor... let alone Fantasy. I'm actually intrigued why you think this to be true?

Because that was my experience in my GM's Colonial Marines game, a Heroic level game with lots of Mental Powers flying around. If you weren't an esper you were screwed. If you were an esper you had a better chance, but even then you didn't have a lot of Mental Defense because it wasn't a Superheroic level game, so there was always a good chance you'd be affected. Fantasy characters have a harder time justifying Mental Defense, so Mental Powers, IMHO work much better for the mentalist in a Heroic game than a Superheroic. Other than that I agree with you--in a Supers game, mentalists are often handicapped--sure LOS makes it easy for them to hit, but achieving effect on those tables is always a pain.

Theala

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, this character is meant to be an NPC, so the GM (meaning me) doesn't have to allow players to buy that, assuming they think of it, and assuming they can formulate a reason why they'd be able to do it--I should think only very powerful spellcasters could do it since <i>mind bland</i> an 8th level spell.

If it requires a powerful spellcaster, shouldn't it be expensive? And even more so to make it a permanent effect? That's one line of reasoning, anyway. I've also never been a fan of the approach that it's a very easy, inexpensive effect which one or more NPC's can have, but is prohibited, or more costly, to PC's. Of course, points are no object to an NPC anyway, so a cost of 200 points matched by 200 bonus xp isn't really any different.


Mental Damag Reduction is a possibility I hadn't considered, would be far more effective than simply tons of Mental Defense. Though I'm not sure either really fit the special effect that person attempting to read a mind would view only trivial or uninteresting thoughts, which is the special effect of the <mind blank>. It's more than simply a matter of absolute effect (which are near impossible to achieve in Hero). If someone uses Telepathy and can't get in, he knows he's being blocked by Defenses, doesn't he?

In general, I'd say he knows because he doesn't get what he's looking for. Trivia will likely be recognized for a blockage at some point, which could just be the SFX of the defense or reduction.

Another option would be a mental illusions damage shield. That would be pretty pricy, but could cause the mind reader to think all he gets is trivia (effectively disguising the character's thoughts and memories).

A number of people have noted absolute effects are tough to do. I find they're also expensive.

[Vondy]

I use a tinfoil hat, personally. As such, telepathy should be built with "not versus tinfoil hats" (a common albeit kooky object, -1/2).

[Fox1]

Interesting idea, and if I were going to keep this character strictly for my private use I would. However, I have thoughts of sharing this character with other people, and he needs to be able to be used in other people's games or at conventions.

If the entire spell list (including the telepathy spells one is defending against) are given with the character- it would seem to me to be self-contained.

If however you're interested in porting the character to other settings/campaigns, I can see the reason for only approaching it from the defense side.

Of course in that case I also see a solid reason for giving up on absolutes, after all they only apply in his original setting by definition :)






Hmm. I'm beginning to think I should look closer at Mental Illusions, Trigged by Telepathy, which still needs to overcome EGO to work.

Mental Illusion- Damage Shield. Only vs. Telepathy. Only to feedback "nothing interesting here".

Not an absolute. Expensive in terms of Active Points. You have to overcome the attacker's EGO and Mental Defense. But a workable solution.

[sbarron]

Mental Defense (40 points total) (38 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only vs. Telepathy (attacker reads only useless surface thoughts); -1 1/2) 15 Real Points

This should totally cover the NPC up through 8 or 9 dice cumulative and 15 dice non-cumulative, depending on EGO.

If you just wanted to create a power to reflect the mind blank, I dont' think it should not be any cheaper than this ability (like limited invisibility, or whatever else you cook up).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Since someone trying to read his mind won't know they've not succeeded -- "reads only trivial or uninteresting thoughts" then what you probably need is this:

40 points of Mental Defense, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible), Only vs. Telepathy with the Special Effect that instead of not getting a connection, they think they do, and get trivial stuff.

[Sean Waters]

The best way to scupper mental powers is via the breakout rule. Buy +15 levels breakout rolls only v telepathy and you can get hold of the mind but it will slip from your grasp before you can read it. Obviously you'll have to ban negative levels unless you want a way to overcome the mind blank. Have a limitation that you always have to use it at full value (+0).

I'd say 'Only v Telepathy' is a -2, probably, so 15 points would get you +15 with your breakout rolls. (or 19 points if you make it inherent so it can't be drained or dispelled)

This being HERO there are ways around it but it is the cheapest and easiest way to do it within the rules.

Hope that is of some use? :)

[OddHat]

Mental Damag Reduction is a possibility I hadn't considered, would be far more effective than simply tons of Mental Defense. Though I'm not sure either really fit the special effect that person attempting to read a mind would view only trivial or uninteresting thoughts, which is the special effect of the <mind blank>. It's more than simply a matter of absolute effect (which are near impossible to achieve in Hero). If someone uses Telepathy and can't get in, he knows he's being blocked by Defenses, doesn't he?

3/4 Damage Reduction Mental, only vs Telepathy(-1), will do it, and at a reasonable price. Even if the character has only a 14 EGO, 12d6 of Telepathy is on average only going to barely touch the most trivial of thoughts. However, if you really want to, you can add Invisible Power Effects: Hide Effects of power to the Damage Reduction, with the special effect that the telepathy only uncovers trivial thoughts. It ups the final cost a bit, but it would still be affordable if a PC really wanted to save up for it in a Hgh Fantasy campaign.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the IPE.

[ThealaSildorian]

IPE, although I believe you need to buy it separately for "while it accumulates" to prevent the target noticing. Small cumulative dice take a long time to have an effect, but advantages stack pretty cheap.



I'd be more inclined to accept it in a fantasy game, simply because it is genre. The crystal ball, unnpoticed, eventually succeeds. In a Supers game, it doesn't really fit.

True, but even in a Heroic level game you have to pay for everything--nothing is assumed :sigh:

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Mental Defense (40 points total) (38 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only vs. Telepathy (attacker reads only useless surface thoughts); -1 1/2) 15 Real Points

This should totally cover the NPC up through 8 or 9 dice cumulative and 15 dice non-cumulative, depending on EGO.

If you just wanted to create a power to reflect the mind blank, I dont' think it should not be any cheaper than this ability (like limited invisibility, or whatever else you cook up).

Well, bear in mind, this character is meant to be an NPC (a major badass villain btw). If I, the player, were to attempt to "scry" his mind to determine his motivations for X, and I rolled enough dice on Telepathy to get through, then Mental Defense either works, or it doesn't. A mentalist would know if his attack were successful or not, if he "got in," because that's the whole purpose of the Telepathy table. If my GM said to me, "well, you only read pretty trivial thoughts" then I would believe I only rolled a certain effect on the Telepathy table. I might let it go at that, not take the risk of trying to "go deeper." If later, I found out that my attack failed altogether and the GM misled me, I'd be really angry--because I should know if I overcome the target's defenses or not. If, OTOH, the GM says to me well, his thoughts are pretty trivial and I realize I am the target of a rebound Mental Illusion, or I can't get past something else then that's a different story. This is why I'm reluctant to use Mental Defense or Damage Reduction.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

The best way to scupper mental powers is via the breakout rule. Buy +15 levels breakout rolls only v telepathy and you can get hold of the mind but it will slip from your grasp before you can read it. Obviously you'll have to ban negative levels unless you want a way to overcome the mind blank. Have a limitation that you always have to use it at full value (+0).

I'd say 'Only v Telepathy' is a -2, probably, so 15 points would get you +15 with your breakout rolls. (or 19 points if you make it inherent so it can't be drained or dispelled)

This being HERO there are ways around it but it is the cheapest and easiest way to do it within the rules.

Hope that is of some use? :)

Ah, now there's a clever idea I hadn't thought of. Yes, that could work. Hmm.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Since someone trying to read his mind won't know they've not succeeded -- "reads only trivial or uninteresting thoughts" then what you probably need is this:

40 points of Mental Defense, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible), Only vs. Telepathy with the Special Effect that instead of not getting a connection, they think they do, and get trivial stuff.

I also hadn't thought of adding IPE to MD. That, and the Breakout idea combined might be the way to go.

Thinking cap on . . . .

Thanks everyone for all the great feedback so far--Everyone's responses, whether I agreed with them or not, have been of immense use. Please keep the ideas coming :widegrin:

Theala

[RDU Neil]

The best way to scupper mental powers is via the breakout rule. Buy +15 levels breakout rolls only v telepathy and you can get hold of the mind but it will slip from your grasp before you can read it. Obviously you'll have to ban negative levels unless you want a way to overcome the mind blank. Have a limitation that you always have to use it at full value (+0).

I'd say 'Only v Telepathy' is a -2, probably, so 15 points would get you +15 with your breakout rolls. (or 19 points if you make it inherent so it can't be drained or dispelled)

This being HERO there are ways around it but it is the cheapest and easiest way to do it within the rules.

Hope that is of some use? :)

This would be really slick. Nice idea.

For my campaign, it would never work, because I've done away with the automatic breakout attempt, because it made Mental Powers all but useless in my play experience. There is always an initial "effect" if it hits and gets past defenses. The first break out roll comes as zero phase on their next action.

Nice idea by the book, though. I'll see if I can rep you!

Damn... not yet... but I owe you.

[Fox1]

For my campaign, it would never work, because I've done away with the automatic breakout attempt, because it made Mental Powers all but useless in my play experience. There is always an initial "effect" if it hits and gets past defenses. The first break out roll comes as zero phase on their next action.

This is the way I run it as well, and for the same reasons.

[RDU Neil]

Actually... taking a tangent here (bad RDU Neil, bad!)

I've always made a point to describe the interaction of Mental Attacks (of all kinds ) and Mental Defenses just as colorfully as I would EBs and bullets vs. armor and such.

The same way I'd describe the sparking, spang of bullets against a shiny red breast plate... I would describe something like, "You reach out, and tentatively grasp the mind, but as your power pours like liquid over their thoughts, instead of slipping in and pulling everything to the surface, it slides off like water over a bell jar. This mind is quite well shielded!"

Essentially, mental powers interacting should have the same "obvious" effects to the two mentalists engaged... even if nothing more than two guys blinking at eachother is what the rest see.

So... IMO (I have no idea what the book says)... you always know you've been attacked mentally... often by WHO as well... and the attacker knows that defenses exist, and whether a little got through, or none at all, or that they cracked easily under his power, etc.

It would... for me... require IPE on Mental Defenses, for the attacker to have something like, "Your power oozes into his brain, ripping into his motor control... and you force him to turn and blast his friends! EXCEPT... this doesn't actually happen! It seemed to work exactly like it should, but the guy is aiming at you and unloading a huge blast! What's your DCV again?" :winkgrin:

I also make it clear when the Ego (ECV) was too high and they "missed" vs. hitting and bouncing off of Mental Defenses. "His mind is slippery, and your psychic tendrils just go right on past. He's got a very powerful, quick mind!"

Anyway... just a bit of a tangent which would... if this was my game... be a major consideration if I was trying to model the spell that Theala is attempting.

[C--]

2 things:

1) It's an NPC. It doesn't need a writeup. It's enough that the GM knows how it works. The player will never see the character sheet.

2) You don't need Invisible Power Effects. The power doesn't cost End, so it's already invisible. If you want the special effects of the Mental Defense to be "you read generic surface thoughts", then that's the sfx. No need for IPE. Requiring IPE is from the school of thought that says you need IPE to have a superstrong character look like a wimp. It's overthink.

[Fox1]

1) It's an NPC. It doesn't need a writeup. It's enough that the GM knows how it works. The player will never see the character sheet.


The issue here is not that the attacker is 'seeing' the defense, rather he's seeing the effect of his own attack.

To use your own example, Mr. Steel may look at Mr. Geek and see no STR- but the second he does a STR vs. STR test against him he'll know something is up, i.e. Mr Geek has a high STR too.

So it's not necessary over-think.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, bear in mind, this character is meant to be an NPC (a major badass villain btw). If I, the player, were to attempt to "scry" his mind to determine his motivations for X, and I rolled enough dice on Telepathy to get through, then Mental Defense either works, or it doesn't. A mentalist would know if his attack were successful or not, if he "got in," because that's the whole purpose of the Telepathy table. If my GM said to me, "well, you only read pretty trivial thoughts" then I would believe I only rolled a certain effect on the Telepathy table. I might let it go at that, not take the risk of trying to "go deeper."

I don't see it that way. I don't get to "know" how much damage my energy blast did. Some characters may look seriously hurt, and not be. Others may grit their teeth and appear to be much less affected than they were. Why should mental attacks be different? If the sfx of Mental Defense are "you only get trivia", That's as valid as "you feel as if your mind has struck a brick wall".

[Fox1]

I don't see it that way. I don't get to "know" how much damage my energy blast did.

One may not know the exact damage value, but it would be an odd expectation indeed to have no idea at all of what happened.

We've seen people shoot Superman and watched/heard the bullets bounce off without any apparent effect.

We've seen Blackhawk down and watched someone torn in half.

We've seen any number of things inbetween and generally know that spraying blood and cries of pain indicate harm.

Now some of that can be faked. Thus we find and put to use such things as acting skill, images and mental illusions in the game.

But barring the use of such, it certainly is within the realm of rational GM decision to give out reasonable descriptions of the effects of an attack- be it physical or mental.

[C--]

We've seen people shoot Superman and watched/heard the bullets bounce off without any apparent effect.

We've seen Blackhawk down and watched someone torn in half.

We've seen any number of things inbetween and generally know that spraying blood and cries of pain indicate harm.


I've played in enough horror games to know that just because something bleeds, doesn't mean you can kill it.

I've seen monsters have huge chunks blown out of them with a shotgun, turn their head towards you (after they pick it up off of the ground), and smile menacingly. Game effect? 10 rPD. Your bullet had no real effect. Everything else is just pretty talking.

[Fox1]

I've played in enough horror games to know that just because something bleeds, doesn't mean you can kill it.

And who says that such monsters did not have Armor- invisible effect (+1/2), damage looks like it go through?

Sounds like a good horror ability to me, and an effect that has real advantage over straight up bullet bouncing (for a evil thing form beyond anyway).

[C--]

And who says that such monsters did not have Armor- invisible effect (+1/2), damage looks like it go through?

Because Armor does not cost End, and is therefore automatically invisible. Armor does not have to be detectable by 2 sense groups, like powers that cost End.


Sounds like a good horror ability to me, and an effect that has real advantage over straight up bullet bouncing (for a evil thing form beyond anyway).

It's not really advantageous. If you can't kill it, you can't kill it. It doesn't matter if it slowly loses Comeliness as it takes damage (like the Terminator), or if the bullets just bounce off. The only thing it might affect is the players' tactics, and then only as far as they're trying to "game" the system (and unsuccessfully at that, or they'd realize I just bought the thing Armor and gave it a clever description).

[Fox1]

Because Armor does not cost End, and is therefore automatically invisible. Armor does not have to be detectable by 2 sense groups, like powers that cost End.

Again you fail to see the difference between looking at something and not seeing the armor (the default), and looking at something and seeing the effect of armor after attacks have been made against it.

The default is that the effect of the attack is seen.






It's not really advantageous.

It's highly advantageous if the creature uses it to lure characters (like it does in so many movies).

If the character never takes advantage of the deception, he would of course be allowed to forgo the advantage and treat it as SPX, but he must in that case never act deceptive.

Edit: Oh, as for the Terminator and similar critters. I think anyone watching would know that there attack is basically having no effect on him. I mean, after all the cops keep shooting didn't they?

Standing there and firing back without concern is a good indication of armor- flying blood or no flying blood.

[C--]

Again you fail to see the difference between looking at something and not seeing the armor (the default), and looking at something and seeing the effect of armor after attacks have been made against it.

The default is that the effect of the attack is seen.


It's highly advantageous if the creature uses it to lure characters (like it does in so many movies).

If the character never takes advantage of the deception, he would of course be allowed to forgo the advantage and treat it as SPX, but he must in that case never act deceptive.

Edit: Oh, as for the Terminator and similar critters. I think anyone watching would know that there attack is basically having no effect on him. I mean, after all the cops keep shooting didn't they?

Standing there and firing back without concern is a good indication of armor- flying blood or no flying blood.

Special effects can have game advantages. Superman gets bonus dice to his Presence Attack when your tank shell bounces off his spitcurl. The evil critter who spurts green ichor when shot by a machine gun gets to lay there and pretend it's dead. The disadvantage that goes along with the evil critter's "it just won't die!" Armor is that any sort of attack, such as an injected poison, that wouldn't affect Superman (it can't penetrate the skin) is going to have an effect anyway. So if the poison has the limitation of "knife must do 1 point of Body" before it takes effect, that limitation is effectively negated for these purposes.

[C--]

Again you fail to see the difference between looking at something and not seeing the armor (the default), and looking at something and seeing the effect of armor after attacks have been made against it.

The default is that the effect of the attack is seen.

If you think that, then IPE won't help with that, anyway.

[Fox1]

Superman gets bonus dice to his Presence Attack when your tank shell bounces off his spitcurl..

Sure, it's in the PRE charts- displaying power, etc. etc.

Doesn't come from SPX. I could justify the same bonuses for "chest explodes under your tank shell, and he just stands there looking at you..."






The disadvantage that goes along with the evil critter's "it just won't die!" Armor is that any sort of attack, such as an injected poison, that wouldn't affect Superman (it can't penetrate the skin) is going to have an effect anyway. So if the poison has the limitation of "knife must do 1 point of Body" before it takes effect, that limitation is effectively negated for these purposes.

No it won't. The critter has armor, no REAL body was done. It just looked like it was.

[ThealaSildorian]

2 things:

1) It's an NPC. It doesn't need a writeup. It's enough that the GM knows how it works. The player will never see the character sheet.

2) You don't need Invisible Power Effects. The power doesn't cost End, so it's already invisible. If you want the special effects of the Mental Defense to be "you read generic surface thoughts", then that's the sfx. No need for IPE. Requiring IPE is from the school of thought that says you need IPE to have a superstrong character look like a wimp. It's overthink.

Oh goodness, no! I would <i>never</i> do that to my players. Even in AD&D, villains get full writeups, and there are some ways around even "absolute" spells. I want to get as close to interpreting the AD&D power as I can, but I'm not out to screw my players. I plan to make this character usable at conventions, or by other GMs. So I want the Power to be elegant, as true to the original idea as I can get it, but within the rules. Which is why I'm here.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

I don't see it that way. I don't get to "know" how much damage my energy blast did. Some characters may look seriously hurt, and not be. Others may grit their teeth and appear to be much less affected than they were. Why should mental attacks be different? If the sfx of Mental Defense are "you only get trivia", That's as valid as "you feel as if your mind has struck a brick wall".

OK, ya gotta point there :winkgrin:

Theala

[C--]

Oh goodness, no! I would <i>never</i> do that to my players. Even in AD&D, villains get full writeups, and there are some ways around even "absolute" spells. I want to get as close to interpreting the AD&D power as I can, but I'm not out to screw my players. I plan to make this character usable at conventions, or by other GMs. So I want the Power to be elegant, as true to the original idea as I can get it, but within the rules. Which is why I'm here.

Theala

I do that to my players all the time. It's not a matter of screwing over your players. It's a matter of saving yourself work. No NPCs get full writeups from me. Dr Brainiac has as many followers as he needs. Points are for players, silly. :) Now, usable at conventions, that may be another matter. I'd still just put a note on it--"this character has a permanant Mind Blank on him--any telepathic abilities will only turn up boring non-information--it has 60/80/100 APs for purposes of Adjustment Powers". Done. If the players come up with a clever solution for how to get around it, then they get around it. Trust me. Players never know the difference. :)

[C--]

Sure, it's in the PRE charts- displaying power, etc. etc.

Doesn't come from SPX. I could justify the same bonuses for "chest explodes under your tank shell, and he just stands there looking at you..."

Yep. Except people don't run in horror when it happens to Supes. :)


No it won't. The critter has armor, no REAL body was done. It just looked like it was.

The limitation requires that Body be taken so that the poison can get into the bloodstream. The sfx say that the bullet has entered the bloodstream. That's all I'm concerned with.

--

Honestly, this sort of thing is such a small advantage (or disadvantage) that I don't worry about. This isn't Accountant Hero. I'm not concerned that there's a point or two missing somewhere. Honestly, Fox1, I'm surprised at your position. You're starting to sound like Steve Long.

[Fox1]

The limitation requires that Body be taken so that the poison can get into the bloodstream. The sfx say that the bullet has entered the bloodstream. That's all I'm concerned with.

The SPX doesn't say the bullet has affect the bloodstream. It only says that it appears to have affected the bloodstream.

It is of couse easy enough to do a version where it does affect the character, it's only a small limit away.




Honestly, this sort of thing is such a small advantage (or disadvantage) that I don't worry about. This isn't Accountant Hero. I'm not concerned that there's a point or two missing somewhere.

I don't consider the advantage any smaller than the difference between an IAF cane gun and an OAF Colt Python.




Honestly, Fox1, I'm surprised at your position. You're starting to sound like Steve Long.

That's your best point so far in this exchange :)

[Hugh Neilson]

Honestly, this sort of thing is such a small advantage (or disadvantage) that I don't worry about. This isn't Accountant Hero.

To me, that small advantage or disadvantage is the definition of "special effects". Superman bounces bullets. The bystanders gasp in awe. The zombie picks its head up and places it atop its neck. The bystanders gasp in horror.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'm currently working on converting an AD&D character to Hero System. This character has had a permanent <i>mind blank</i> spell cast on him: the result of which is anyone who tries to read his mind reads only uninteresting or trivial thoughts.

I'm trying to figure out how to translate this to Hero terms. I thought about buying Invisibility to Mental Senses, Telepathy Only (-1/2), no fringe for 15 pts.

I know I could simply buy lots of Mental Defense, but this isn't the answer. Mental Defense is fairly easy to overcome, especially in a fantasy game. And the special effect of the spell is supposed to be an automatic thing.

I did think maybe Mental Illusions might be a better choice. Any ideas?

Theala


Invisibility to Mental Senses is exactly what you need. They'll try to read the mind...except there seems to be nothing there to read. Any attempt at getting a mental "lock" is tried at 0 ECV (like a ranged attack targeting an invisible target) unless the attacker is touching the target, in which case it would only be 1/2 ECV (like a Ranged attack attacking an invisible target that is in an adjecent Hex, or a HtH attack vs an Invisible target)

This "Mind Blank" spell sounds like it could be a combination of Invisibility to Mental senses (possibly Telepathy only), Extra ECV (no more than +3) and a bit of Extra Mental Defense, or low grade Mental Reduction (25% at most). Those powers used in conjunction will make a guy who's mind is practically impossible to read by all but the most powerful Telepaths.

Note: A lot of my information came from the 4th Edition version of The Ultimate Mentalist which has a large discussion on the "Sense" aspect of powers like Telepathy and Mind Scan. Invisibility affects them as it would any other sense power. I'm doing this from memory though, as my copy of TUM dissapeared some years ago. Damn I miss that book. The only Hero book that was equal to The Ultimate Martial Artist in usefulness IMO...(well, before The Ultimate Vehicle came out anyway)

[Lord Liaden]

Here's a passage from the FAQ illustrating another approach which may have potential:

Q: What are the effects of Shape Shift to the Mental Sense Group?

A: If a character has Shape Shift (Mental Group), his mind “looks” different to anyone who uses a Mental Sense to perceive his mind. Trying to perceive him with Mind Scan would generally be pointless; he “looks” like some other mind. Telepathy at the “surface thoughts” level would “see” a different mind, but at levels beyond that could still perceive the character’s deeper thoughts, memories, and so forth — Shape Shift doesn’t change those, and does not allow a character to change his Psychological Limitations, either.

[Kristopher]

Related question: in your opinions, how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?

[NuSoardGraphite]

I just read the FAQ and apparently they no longer allow Invisibility to work against Telepathy like it used to.

However there is a contradiction in the FAQ that says Mind Scan is a Mental Senes, then it goes on to include Mind Scan in the list of powers that work normally against invisibility because of LOS. The whole point of Mind Scan is to locate someone who is out of LOS and to possibly be able to create a link through which another Mental Power can be used through. I think that Invisibility to Mental Sense would most definately block Mind Scan.

I also think that Invisibility to Mental Sense should block the "hearing" aspect of Telepathy, just as Invisibility to Hearing keeps a person from making any kind of "noise" a person with Invisibility to Mental Sense would be totally silent to someone with Telepathy.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Related question: in your opinions, how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?

According to the FAQ, it doesn't. At all. Nada. Nothing. Zilch. Your choices are Mental Defense, Damage Reduction or high ECV. Good luck.

My personal thoughts on the matter: It makes someone difficult to "see" with any attacking Mental Power. ECV 0 to attack unless they are "touching" (in which case its then 1/2 ECV) or they've been affected with Telepahty, Mind Scan or Mind Link, in which case the ECV is normal.

Note that I would also allow an attacker a mental Perception roll vs Invisibility as normal when attempting to percieve an invisible attacker...and there is also the "Fringe" to consider.

I would also break down Invisibility vs the Mental senses like this:

Mental Sense Group:

Mental Awareness
Telepathy
Mind Link (the one's defined with a Mental SFX)
Mind Scan
Detect (any individual detect specified as being part of the Mental Sense group)

Invisibility could be bought for a specific Mental Sense, or the Sense Group as a whole (the Mental Sense Group is considered a "Targeting Sense" for purposes of the cost of Invisibility vs Mental Senses)

This seems very powerful no? Someone invisible to the Mental Sense group could simply go around and ignore Mentalists.

Yes, thats the effect I'm going for.

However, there is a very inexpensive "backdoor" around this uber-power. The mentalist simply need purchase a Detect Power, such as "Detect Minds" which allows him to sense Minds in the area (can't read thoughts, just knows where they are) with Targeting and not designate it as part of the Mental Sense Group. Very simple and relatively inexpensive.

[Kristopher]

That's very disappointing.

Well, one more reason to ignore the FAQ, I guess. I haven't looked at it yet, why should I start now?


IMO, mental powers should be treated as if they target via the Mental sense group.

[NuSoardGraphite]

That's very disappointing.

Well, one more reason to ignore the FAQ, I guess. I haven't looked at it yet, why should I start now?


IMO, mental powers should be treated as if they target via the Mental sense group.

Agreed. I quite happily ignore the FAQs regularly.

[Agent X]

The FAQs just make the game absolutely confusing.

[Lord Liaden]

I just read the FAQ and apparently they no longer allow Invisibility to work against Telepathy like it used to.

However there is a contradiction in the FAQ that says Mind Scan is a Mental Senes, then it goes on to include Mind Scan in the list of powers that work normally against invisibility because of LOS. The whole point of Mind Scan is to locate someone who is out of LOS and to possibly be able to create a link through which another Mental Power can be used through. I think that Invisibility to Mental Sense would most definately block Mind Scan.

I also think that Invisibility to Mental Sense should block the "hearing" aspect of Telepathy, just as Invisibility to Hearing keeps a person from making any kind of "noise" a person with Invisibility to Mental Sense would be totally silent to someone with Telepathy.

Could you point me to the section of the FAQ that says that Mind Scan works normally against Invisibility? I just checked the FAQ for Invisibility, and that says specifically that Mind Scan is blocked by Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group.

Note that I'm not doubting you, NuSoard. It wouldn't be the first contradiction in the FAQ. :rolleyes:

[Lord Liaden]

The FAQs just make the game absolutely confusing.

Oh, I don't know. Sometimes they're very helpful. Mind you, I also am quite willing to ignore the ones I disagree with, but I do that to the main rules as well. :D

Folks who want an "official" position on a contentious issue probably appreciate them, though. And if you're going to cross campaigns between different GMs you may need a baseline to agree on.

Heck, if none of us asked Steve Long the questions, he'd never have to make a ruling. :snicker:

[ThealaSildorian]

I do that to my players all the time. It's not a matter of screwing over your players. It's a matter of saving yourself work. No NPCs get full writeups from me. Dr Brainiac has as many followers as he needs. Points are for players, silly. :) Now, usable at conventions, that may be another matter. I'd still just put a note on it--"this character has a permanant Mind Blank on him--any telepathic abilities will only turn up boring non-information--it has 60/80/100 APs for purposes of Adjustment Powers". Done. If the players come up with a clever solution for how to get around it, then they get around it. Trust me. Players never know the difference. :)

Well, we have different philosphies as GMs, then. Generaly speaking, I don't believe in <i>carte blanche</i> NPCs. Oh, there are some exceptions, usually reserved for <i>deus ex machina</i> moments that enhance the plotline. But I believe there should be a framework for the NPC, otherwise everything is just GM whim, and as player I find that unfair.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Invisibility to Mental Senses is exactly what you need. They'll try to read the mind...except there seems to be nothing there to read. Any attempt at getting a mental "lock" is tried at 0 ECV (like a ranged attack targeting an invisible target) unless the attacker is touching the target, in which case it would only be 1/2 ECV (like a Ranged attack attacking an invisible target that is in an adjecent Hex, or a HtH attack vs an Invisible target)

This "Mind Blank" spell sounds like it could be a combination of Invisibility to Mental senses (possibly Telepathy only), Extra ECV (no more than +3) and a bit of Extra Mental Defense, or low grade Mental Reduction (25% at most). Those powers used in conjunction will make a guy who's mind is practically impossible to read by all but the most powerful Telepaths.

I'm beginning to think something along the lines of what you suggest is the way to go. I'm still not completely convinced MD or DR is it and am more inclined to Invisibility, but a combination of the two like you suggest would cover the bases, and it's not like I've got to worry about points for an NPC.


Note: A lot of my information came from the 4th Edition version of The Ultimate Mentalist which has a large discussion on the "Sense" aspect of powers like Telepathy and Mind Scan. Invisibility affects them as it would any other sense power. I'm doing this from memory though, as my copy of TUM dissapeared some years ago. Damn I miss that book. The only Hero book that was equal to The Ultimate Martial Artist in usefulness IMO...(well, before The Ultimate Vehicle came out anyway)

Can't find my copy either. I moved a few months ago, and half my gaming stuff is still in boxes. So I know the feeling :yes:

[ThealaSildorian]

Related question: in your opinions, how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?

For the purposes of what I'm trying to do, it wouldn't affect it at all. The NPC would still be able to be Mind Controlled or fooled by Mental Illusions if the spell caster is able to overcome his EGO, just like with any other character.

Theala

[sbarron]

I just re-read the title of this thread.

How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

In the Hero System, the most straight forward answer to this question is mental defense. If other mental attacks work against this character normally, then it should be limited mental defense. All this invisibility and such is only necessary because we're trying to create a D&D power in Hero.

KISS

[Vondy]

The FAQs just make the game absolutely confusing.

I use the rulebook and only the rulebook as the baseline for my games*

The FAQ adds too much material and another source to check.

It also equates to "how steve would run his game" and not how I would run mine. Its interesting to look at, but that's the end of it.

*there are a handful of house rules, but they amount to less than a page.

[Vondy]

I just re-read the title of this thread.

How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

In the Hero System, the most straight forward answer to this question is mental defense. If other mental attacks work against this character normally, then it should be limited mental defense. All this invisibility and such is only necessary because we're trying to create a D&D power in Hero.

KISS

And if you have a high ego score, just buy 50% mental damage reduction.

[RDU Neil]

I use the rulebook and only the rulebook as the baseline for my games*

The FAQ adds too much material and another source to check.

It also equates to "how steve would run his game" and not how I would run mine. Its interesting to look at, but that's the end of it.

*there are a handful of house rules, but they amount to less than a page.

This is very true. It is really Steve's interpretation at the GAME RULE level, rather than actual mechanical level, re: the FAQ.

Unfortunately, such decisions are making it into the based rule book... cluttering and parsing the core mechanics into much too fine a detail. For this to be a true toolkit... the FAQ needs to remain separate... or for things like Steve's Autofire skills and such, to exist in GAME supplements like Dark Champions... rather than as Core Mechanics.

Just my opinion... but you said what I'd been thinking. (Or at least I interpreted it as such.)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Could you point me to the section of the FAQ that says that Mind Scan works normally against Invisibility? I just checked the FAQ for Invisibility, and that says specifically that Mind Scan is blocked by Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group.

Note that I'm not doubting you, NuSoard. It wouldn't be the first contradiction in the FAQ. :rolleyes:

No, no. You are correct. It does mention that Mind Scan is affected by Invisibility (thought so!) I think I misread the part where it says a person who is invisible can use Telepathy, Mind Scan, Mind Control etc and it doesn't hide the powers from those with Mental Awareness. I was in a hurry as I'm using my roomates computer and one of them needed it at the time :stupid:

[NuSoardGraphite]

I just re-read the title of this thread.

How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

In the Hero System, the most straight forward answer to this question is mental defense. If other mental attacks work against this character normally, then it should be limited mental defense. All this invisibility and such is only necessary because we're trying to create a D&D power in Hero.

KISS

Even if the base from which he was working was a D&D power, I don't think in terms of D&D...I haven't for a long time.

What I did was I took the essence of what the "Mind Blank" spell does. Yes, it "prevents" the subjects mind from being read, but how does it do that? By making the subjects thoughts "invisible". A Telepath can get into your head, but when they get there, there appears to be nothing to read. It appears blank/empty.
That effect to me does not say "Mental Defense"...to me, Mental Defense is preventing someone from getting into your head. The effect screams Invisibility to Telepahty/Mind Link or perhaps Images vs Telepathy (the Image being a "blank mind")
My reasoning behind this is because Mental Defense denies you entry...Period. However, the "Mind Blank" spell/power simply makes your mind unreadable. A Telepath could still get into your head and send a Telepathic Mind Control command for you to kill your comrades....Mental Defense would prevent this, however the Mind Blank spell should not.

Besides, thats what these message boards are for...people to share ideas and try new things with the system...Mental Defense is the easy answer for something like this. Alternative/Unusual power constructs are what many of the newbies come to us veterans for anyway....

[C--]

Even if the base from which he was working was a D&D power, I don't think in terms of D&D...I haven't for a long time.

What I did was I took the essence of what the "Mind Blank" spell does. Yes, it "prevents" the subjects mind from being read, but how does it do that? By making the subjects thoughts "invisible". A Telepath can get into your head, but when they get there, there appears to be nothing to read. It appears blank/empty.
That effect to me does not say "Mental Defense"...to me, Mental Defense is preventing someone from getting into your head. The effect screams Invisibility to Telepahty/Mind Link or perhaps Images vs Telepathy (the Image being a "blank mind")
My reasoning behind this is because Mental Defense denies you entry...Period. However, the "Mind Blank" spell/power simply makes your mind unreadable. A Telepath could still get into your head and send a Telepathic Mind Control command for you to kill your comrades....Mental Defense would prevent this, however the Mind Blank spell should not.

Besides, thats what these message boards are for...people to share ideas and try new things with the system...Mental Defense is the easy answer for something like this. Alternative/Unusual power constructs are what many of the newbies come to us veterans for anyway....

But Invisibility to Mental Senses does not make your mind unreadable. If I look at you with my eyeballs and then roll my 12D6 of Telepathy, it doesn't do anything at all if you have Invisibility to Mental Group. You still get your mind read. Mental Powers can be used based off of Targeting Smell, if you have it. They aren't solely targeted based off of the Mental Sense Group. Thus, mechanically, Invisibility to Mental Group does not do what you want.

Mental Defense and Mental Reduction are the two powers that give you the game effect you're looking for. Those are the only two powers unless you go with some wonky Mental Illusions construct. Forget the names of the powers. Look at what game mechanic best performs what you're looking for. Here, it's Mental Defense or Mental Reduction. Despite the fact that Invisibiltiy sounds like it would be the appropriate power (based on the name), the game effect that Invisibility gives is not even close to the real effects of a Mind Blank spell.

[NuSoardGraphite]

But Invisibility to Mental Senses does not make your mind unreadable.

It most certainly does, if the GM decides it does. Since the guy posting the question is the GM, its a perfectly valid option to suggest to him.



If I look at you with my eyeballs and then roll my 12D6 of Telepathy, it doesn't do anything at all if you have Invisibility to Mental Group. You still get your mind read. Mental Powers can be used based off of Targeting Smell, if you have it. They aren't solely targeted based off of the Mental Sense Group. Thus, mechanically, Invisibility to Mental Group does not do what you want.

It most certainly should do what I want.

Here's a counter-example:

Someone has Invisibility to Hearing. You can see them with your eyeballs, but you still can't hear them. They make no sound. You know they are there, but for your sense of Hearing, they don't exist.

This situation is the same for Telepathy. Invisibilityt o Telepathy makes their thoughts "invisible" to any Telepath trying to read them. A Telepath could send them a thought and the target would probably recieve it, but the Telepath can't "Hear" anything from the target, because to his telepathy, the targets thoughts don't exist. This situation is exactly the same as someone with Invisibility to Hearing, but it applies to Mental sound rather than physical sound. Why is this difficult to comprehend?



Mental Defense and Mental Reduction are the two powers that give you the game effect you're looking for.

Yes, they can be used for this effect, but I explained earlier why I wouldn't use them (most especially Mental Defense). I am very much into the interactivity of various powers and abilities and how they affect and react to each other. Mental Defense not only prevents someone from reading your thoughts, it also prevents them from diving into memories, into the subconsciouss, from sending the target a Telepathic message. Thats not the effect of the spell or ability we are trying to simulate. We're trying to simulate an ability that simply prevents one's consciouss thoughts from being read. Sure you could go with Mental Defense or Mental Reduction only vs Telepathy to read thoughts (-2?), but Invisibility could the same thing without the cludge.


Those are the only two powers unless you go with some wonky Mental Illusions construct.

Nope. Invisibility works fine, as should Images vs Telepathy.


Forget the names of the powers. Look at what game mechanic best performs what you're looking for.

Thats exactly what I do. I don't even consider the name of the basic power, I consider its effect. For puposes of this spell/ability (make the minds conscious thoughts unreadable" Invisibility works fine. It works better than mental defense because it is a less kludgy writeup.



Despite the fact that Invisibiltiy sounds like it would be the appropriate power (based on the name), the game effect that Invisibility gives is not even close to the real effects of a Mind Blank spell.

Its closer than mental defense, thats for damned sure. At least from where I'm sitting it is....

[AlHazred]

The other thing I was thinking of, was Shape Shift (Mental Group), to make your thoughts seem uninteresting. Should be pretty cheap actually.

[Warp9]

It most certainly does, if the GM decides it does. Since the guy posting the question is the GM, its a perfectly valid option to suggest to him.



It most certainly should do what I want.

Here's a counter-example:

Someone has Invisibility to Hearing. You can see them with your eyeballs, but you still can't hear them. They make no sound. You know they are there, but for your sense of Hearing, they don't exist.

This situation is the same for Telepathy. Invisibilityt o Telepathy makes their thoughts "invisible" to any Telepath trying to read them. A Telepath could send them a thought and the target would probably recieve it, but the Telepath can't "Hear" anything from the target, because to his telepathy, the targets thoughts don't exist. This situation is exactly the same as someone with Invisibility to Hearing, but it applies to Mental sound rather than physical sound. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

I can understand your points here.

My concern with the invisibility route is that it seems pretty cheap to make yourself absolutely immune to an unlimited amount of points of Telepathy.

Most senses are a bit more like the invisiblity, you have them or you don't (you have UV vision or you don't). It is kind of an all or nothing thing. I don't have as much problem with an all or nothing defense in this case.

Powers like Telepathy are not just an "all or nothing" category. 6d6 of Telepathy is much different than 26d6 of Telepathy. And the defense against telepathy should reflect this fact. And I have problems with an absolute defense that is totally effective even against 1000d6 of Telepathy. (all this stuff is just IMO, of course)

[C--]

It most certainly does, if the GM decides it does. Since the guy posting the question is the GM, its a perfectly valid option to suggest to him.

The GM can decide that a 20 Comeliness does that, too. That doesn't mean that the Power, book-wise, does anything close to it.

And Theala is a girl.


It most certainly should do what I want.

Here's a counter-example:

Someone has Invisibility to Hearing. You can see them with your eyeballs, but you still can't hear them. They make no sound. You know they are there, but for your sense of Hearing, they don't exist.

So my Targeting Hearing doesn't work. I can still see them. I shoot them with my 4D6 RKA "Ultrasonic Blast". They still take damage.


This situation is the same for Telepathy. Invisibilityt o Telepathy makes their thoughts "invisible" to any Telepath trying to read them. A Telepath could send them a thought and the target would probably recieve it, but the Telepath can't "Hear" anything from the target, because to his telepathy, the targets thoughts don't exist. This situation is exactly the same as someone with Invisibility to Hearing, but it applies to Mental sound rather than physical sound. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

Telepathy isn't a sense. Telepathy is a power. I can't "see" them with my mental senses, but when I roll my effect dice, they take the effect. I don't see what is hard to understand about this.



Yes, they can be used for this effect, but I explained earlier why I wouldn't use them (most especially Mental Defense). I am very much into the interactivity of various powers and abilities and how they affect and react to each other. Mental Defense not only prevents someone from reading your thoughts, it also prevents them from diving into memories, into the subconsciouss, from sending the target a Telepathic message. Thats not the effect of the spell or ability we are trying to simulate.

That's why you put a limitation on it.


We're trying to simulate an ability that simply prevents one's consciouss thoughts from being read. Sure you could go with Mental Defense or Mental Reduction only vs Telepathy to read thoughts (-2?), but Invisibility could the same thing without the cludge.

Invisibility is the kludge. Invisibility does not do what you're trying to make it do. The only reason you guys are jumping on Invisibility is because the name of the power sounds like it might do what you want it to do. But, unfortunately, the actual description of the power makes it fairly clear that it does not do that.


Nope. Invisibility works fine, as should Images vs Telepathy.

Thats exactly what I do. I don't even consider the name of the basic power, I consider its effect. For puposes of this spell/ability (make the minds conscious thoughts unreadable" Invisibility works fine. It works better than mental defense because it is a less kludgy writeup.

Its closer than mental defense, thats for damned sure. At least from where I'm sitting it is....

Okay. I'll go through it.

I'm Mind Lad. I've got 12D6 Mind Scan, Telepathy, Mind Control, and Mental Illusions. I've got a 6D6 Ego Attack and a 23 Ego.
You're Mind Blank Lad. You've got some powers and stuff, and an 18 Ego, and Invisibility vs Mental Group.

I try to Mind Scan for you. Hmm..., you don't appear to be there. Then I see you in the Donut Shop. I can see you, so I can target you. I roll ECV vs ECV, and need a 13- to hit you. I roll a 12. I hit. Now I roll my 12D6. I roll 42. I get 24 past your Ego. I can read lots and lots of stuff. It doesn't matter that you're Invisible to mental senses, because... Telepathy is not a mental sense. Telepathy is it's own seperate thing. So I'm still reading your mind.

Now, if you go with your apparent house rule, that Mental Powers can only be targeted by Mental Sense Group senses, then it breaks down even more. That's because I'm now at ECV 0 to target you. That means I need to roll a 3 to hit you. So, instead of reading "generic surface thoughts", the GM says to me "Hey, you failed to hit his mind." It also means that I've got to hit with my ECV of 0 if I want to Ego Attack you, which is not what the sfx of the mind blank does.

Now, let's bring in Mind Blank Lad Mk 2. He's got 40 points of Mental Defense, only to stop his mind from being read with Telepathy (-1). That's already less points than an Invisibility that's 0 End Persistant with no fringe (which is what you'd need). So I try and hit Mind Blank Lad Mk 2. I need a 13-. I roll a 12. I hit. I roll my effect of 42. The GM says "Hmm... He's thinking about fly fishing." I say "Do I get anything else? Anything... deeper?" GM: "He seems to really like fly fishing. Other than that, nope."

You're looking for a power that stops a mental attack. That's mental defense. If you want to avoid being "seen" with a mental sense, get Invisibility vs Mental Sense Group. If you want to stop the effect of a mental power, get mental defense. It's not like we're talking quantum physics here.

[Warp9]

One may not know the exact damage value, but it would be an odd expectation indeed to have no idea at all of what happened.

We've seen people shoot Superman and watched/heard the bullets bounce off without any apparent effect.

We've seen Blackhawk down and watched someone torn in half.

We've seen any number of things inbetween and generally know that spraying blood and cries of pain indicate harm.

Now some of that can be faked. Thus we find and put to use such things as acting skill, images and mental illusions in the game.

But barring the use of such, it certainly is within the realm of rational GM decision to give out reasonable descriptions of the effects of an attack- be it physical or mental.

Those are some interesting points.

The concept that you have a "right" to get a good indication as to how much damage was done makes some sense.

But I have a question about it: imagine that I am playing something very different from a human, for example a water spirit. Such an entity might not show damage in the same way that a human would, which is not to say that the damage wouldn't be visible if one knew what to look for. Does that mean I would need to buy a specific power to represent this fact?

[Gary]

2 possible approaches:

1) +10 to Ego Rolls for 20 pts. Brutal, nasty, effective, and downright cheap. It will also make you effectively immune to mind control, mind scan, and mental illusions as well.

2) Declare that the spell changes the Class of Mind of the villain. Now anyone who doesn't purchase the 'Mind Blank' class of mind for his telepathy (which will be everyone) is blocked from using mental powers vs him. Even more nasty and cheap than the first option. ;)

[NuSoardGraphite]

The other thing I was thinking of, was Shape Shift (Mental Group), to make your thoughts seem uninteresting. Should be pretty cheap actually.

Very good! I forgot about Shape Shift being the "other" sense affecting power.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I can understand your points here.

My concern with the invisibility route is that it seems pretty cheap to make yourself absolutely immune to an unlimited amount of points of Telepathy.

Most senses are a bit more like the invisiblity, you have them or you don't (you have UV vision or you don't). It is kind of an all or nothing thing. I don't have as much problem with an all or nothing defense in this case.

Powers like Telepathy are not just an "all or nothing" category. 6d6 of Telepathy is much different than 26d6 of Telepathy. And the defense against telepathy should reflect this fact. And I have problems with an absolute defense that is totally effective even against 1000d6 of Telepathy. (all this stuff is just IMO, of course)

Understandable. But even Perception isn't "All or Nothing", a Perception roll is needed and the amount of success rolled determines how much info one gains from percieving. Even though Invisibility is a near-absolute defense against Perception, there are ways around Invisibility.

And for the record, I wouldn't allow Invisibility vs the entire Mental Sense group unless there was a big weak spot to exploit. For purposes of this Mind Blank spell, I think Invisibility works just fine though.

I would also allow the Telepath a Perception roll to spot the "fringe". I would give a bonus to that perception roll based on how well they made their Telepathy roll by (+1 for every 5pts over what they needed for their effect roll. An excellent roll could get a +4 or +5 bonus to spot the "fringe") The effect of spotting the Fringe would be sensing some garbled and jumbled thoughts. They can't make sense of it, but they know its there, so they would know something is wrong and could try and figure out a way around it.

How could they get around it? Perhaps a subtle Telepathic Mind Control command to drop their Mental Invisibility power "Reveal your thoughts to me".

No, you can't brute-force your way past this power, but sometimes its good to force players to think outside the box.....

[NuSoardGraphite]

So my Targeting Hearing doesn't work. I can still see them. I shoot them with my 4D6 RKA "Ultrasonic Blast". They still take damage.

And successfully blast the guy who is Invisible to Mental Sense Group with Ego Blast and he still takes damage.




Telepathy isn't a sense. Telepathy is a power.

It is a Power with "Sense-like aspects", just as Mind Scan is a Power with "Sense-like aspects" just like Clairsentience is a Power with Sense-like aspects, yet invisibility works normally against those powers....



I can't "see" them with my mental senses, but when I roll my effect dice, they take the effect. I don't see what is hard to understand about this.

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. Since Invisibility affects other powers with "sense-like aspects" it should affect the "sense-like aspects" of Telepathy as well. Why would telepathy be immune when Clairsentience and Mind Scan are not?





That's why you put a limitation on it.

Nothing wrong with that route. I'm just offering an alternative. And if you read the original post, she was looking for alternative ideas, I simply agreed with her original idea, which was to use Invisibility. She wants the ability to be Automatic. Invisibility makes it so.




Invisibility is the kludge. Invisibility does not do what you're trying to make it do.

explain to me please, how the mechanics of Invisibility make it useless against Telepathy again?

From my understanding, Invisibility makes a target non-existant to a specific sense or senses. If one merely considers Telepathy to be a sense, where does that break the mechanic of Invisibility?



The only reason you guys are jumping on Invisibility is because the name of the power sounds like it might do what you want it to do. But, unfortunately, the actual description of the power makes it fairly clear that it does not do that.

Well, I don't have the revised edition, and my copy of FREd has nothing in the description of Invisibility that would keep it from working against Telepathy if I consider Telepathy to be a sense-like Power.




Okay. I'll go through it.

Okay, lets go.



I'm Mind Lad. I've got 12D6 Mind Scan, Telepathy, Mind Control, and Mental Illusions. I've got a 6D6 Ego Attack and a 23 Ego.
You're Mind Blank Lad. You've got some powers and stuff, and an 18 Ego, and Invisibility vs Mental Group.

Ah, thats where you are wrong. Mind Blank Lad doesn't have Invisibility to Mental Group. Mind Blank Lad (the one Theala wants to write up) only has Invisibility to Telepathy.



I try to Mind Scan for you. Hmm..., you don't appear to be there.

Theala's character would be there. He's not invisible to Mind Scan.



Then I see you in the Donut Shop. I can see you, so I can target you. I roll ECV vs ECV, and need a 13- to hit you. I roll a 12. I hit. Now I roll my 12D6. I roll 42. I get 24 past your Ego. I can read lots and lots of stuff. It doesn't matter that you're Invisible to mental senses, because... Telepathy is not a mental sense. Telepathy is it's own seperate thing. So I'm still reading your mind.

Actually, the effect that I like to simulate for Invisibility to the Mental Group is that you see them, but their mind simply doesn't seem to be there. It doesn't seem to exist. You can still try to lock on to them because you see them...there has to be a mind there, but you just can't find it. OECV 0, unless you are touching, which is 0ECV 1/2.
They would read like an Automaton. An Automaton cannot be affected by Mental Powers (unless it has an EGO, or your Mental Powers work vs the Machine class of minds), so an Automaton reads like nothing..it doesn't exist to normal Mental Powers. The character who is Invisible to the Mental Sense Group would appear as an Automaton to any Telepath who tried to read them.



Now, if you go with your apparent house rule, that Mental Powers can only be targeted by Mental Sense Group senses, then it breaks down even more.

That's because I'm now at ECV 0 to target you. That means I need to roll a 3 to hit you. So, instead of reading "generic surface thoughts", the GM says to me "Hey, you failed to hit his mind." It also means that I've got to hit with my ECV of 0 if I want to Ego Attack you, which is not what the sfx of the mind blank does.

Yep, thats exactly it. Invisibility to Mental Sense Group is quite powerful, which is why I would keep a close eye on it. Just as NND and AVLD attacks are quite powerful and one should keep an eye on them. I have no problem with this and I don't think it "breaks" the system at all. I've been doing it since 1990 when I first started playing Hero. I only had 1 player who was Invisible to the entire Mental Group and he still got his butt kicked on a regular basis. It didn't make him too powerful as Mental Powers are a limited group of sfx. In a game based on Telepathic powers, I would probably veto or at least require that such a power be highly limited. In a Supers game, I'd let it fly. So you can't read him with Telepathy or Ego blast him? Big deal, he'll still go down from a Judo chop to the neck...



You're looking for a power that stops a mental attack.

No, in this thread, Theala is not looking for a power that stops a Mental Attack. She's looking for a power that keeps surface thoughts and deep thoughts from being read. A Telepath still should be able to send Telepathic messages and subliminal Mind Control impulses with no problem. Mental Defense will prevent this.



That's mental defense.

Highly limited mental defense, sure. Invisibility, Shape-shift and Images works better, IMO.



If you want to avoid being "seen" with a mental sense, get Invisibility vs Mental Sense Group. If you want to stop the effect of a mental power, get mental defense. It's not like we're talking quantum physics here.

Well, since Theala bought the book for herself, its her decision to make ultimately, not mine, not yours and not Steve's.

We could go around about this all day. We have our opinions (and I do respect yours, I just don't agree with it and will continue to suggest Invisibility to Mental sense for a power of this type...

[CthulhuCollecto]

Could you just take a lot of mental defense with a visible limitation ie trivial surface thoughts as the special effect

[Kirby]

Related question: in your opinions, how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?
In my opinion, I'd treat invisibility to the Mental Group like I would treat Invisibility to regular sight.

For Mind Control, Ego Blast & Mental Illusions, you can use if you can physically see the person. (Think of it like using an Energy Blast vs someone invisibile; you can still affect them, even if you can't see them.) For Invisibility to Mental Groups, Mind Scan wouldn't pick up the person even if they're standing in front of you. YMMV.

[Kirby]

Could you just take a lot of mental defense with a visible limitation ie trivial surface thoughts as the special effect
I would think that would be a +1/4 advantage, as opposed to a disadvantage. Just my opinion.

[C--]

NuSoard, I'm gonna have to wait to fully respond to your last post. I see where you're going with it, but I loaned my copy of 5th to the group retard, so I can't check the actual rules until I get it back. Since Invisibility vs Telepathy is definitely a rules-heavy issue, I can't really go on any further until I get my book back.

[Vondy]

2 possible approaches:

1) +10 to Ego Rolls for 20 pts. Brutal, nasty, effective, and downright cheap. It will also make you effectively immune to mind control, mind scan, and mental illusions as well.

2) Declare that the spell changes the Class of Mind of the villain. Now anyone who doesn't purchase the 'Mind Blank' class of mind for his telepathy (which will be everyone) is blocked from using mental powers vs him. Even more nasty and cheap than the first option. ;)

How does having high ego rolls help you against telepathy?

[Vondy]

I think, for some applications (esp. non-supers) its reasonable for the gamemaster to rule that the only targeting sense for mental powers is the mental sense group. The LOS rule is primarily for determining range (unless you have mind scan) and doesn't have to be strictly interpreted as "if I can see him my powers work." Its generally read that way, but I don't think the other interpretation will render the system unweildy or introduce too many problems. Invisibility generally has fringe, so its still possible to find them with a halved perception roll, and even if it doesn't, the invisible character (as the power is written) should still have some some method, based on SFX, that can be used to find them.

[Gary]

How does having high ego rolls help you against telepathy?


Like any other mental powers, you get a free subconscious breakout roll. Your typical 15 Ego dude will have 22- breakout roll, -1/5 pts effect achieved by the Telepathy over what's needed. That should be quite sufficient for any telepathy short of Takofanes and maybe Menton level.

[Vondy]

Like any other mental powers, you get a free subconscious breakout roll. Your typical 15 Ego dude will have 22- breakout roll, -1/5 pts effect achieved by the Telepathy over what's needed. That should be quite sufficient for any telepathy short of Takofanes and maybe Menton level.

Unless the GM has additional rules stating how long telepathy takes, that might not help. Especially if the mentalist was looking for something specific. A phase might prove sufficient. I have such rules, but not everyone does.

[Gary]

Unless the GM has additional rules stating how long telepathy takes, that might not help. Especially if the mentalist was looking for something specific. A phase might prove sufficient. I have such rules, but not everyone does.


If the GM has a house rule against this idea, then obviously it wouldn't fly. However, the default rules allow the breakout roll to occur before telepathy, mind control, mental illusion, or mind scan takes effect.

I wouldn't mind such a house rule. +1 with Ego rolls costs 2 pts, and essentially acts like +5 Mental Defense that doesn't apply to Ego Blasts. You probably get too much bang for your buck, but officially it's legal.

[Vondy]

If the GM has a house rule against this idea, then obviously it wouldn't fly. However, the default rules allow the breakout roll to occur before telepathy, mind control, mental illusion, or mind scan takes effect.

I wouldn't mind such a house rule. +1 with Ego rolls costs 2 pts, and essentially acts like +5 Mental Defense that doesn't apply to Ego Blasts. You probably get too much bang for your buck, but officially it's legal.

I wasn't aware 5ER specified the roll happened in advance. I haven't read it in detail yet. Good to know. As it is, knowing the construct could be so abused, I probably wouldn't allow it.

[Warp9]

A few other questions/comments on these issues:

Let us assume that Telepathy counts as a sense.

And let us imagine that I have a character who has Telepathy with the limitation "based on CON," defined as a truth drug. Assuming that the character has successfully attacked his target and administered the drug, what kind of invisibility would a target need to resist the effects of the drug?

[Vondy]

A few other questions/comments on these issues:

Let us assume that Telepathy counts as a sense.

And let us imagine that I have a character who has Telepathy with the limitation "based on CON," defined as a truth drug. Assuming that the character has successfully attacked his target and administered the drug, what kind of invisibility would a target need to resist the effects of the drug?

Based on the SFX, invisibility would not be the correct power application. For the drug to work it has to be in the target's system, which means they've already been hit. It makes no sense at all. You would want life support versus the truth serum, or versus all drugs or chemical agents.

[Warp9]

Based on the SFX, invisibility would not be the correct power application. For the drug to work it has to be in the target's system, which means they've already been hit. It makes no sense at all. You would want life support versus the truth serum, or versus all drugs or chemical agents.
Where do you stand on the *less limited* EGO based version of Telepathy, would you allow invisibility to defend against that?

Side Note: I am aware that it might make the target harder to hit, but for the sake of argument we're assuming that the target has been sucessfully hit and his EGO overcome by this invasive telepathic attack.

[Vondy]

Where do you stand on the *less limited* EGO based version of Telepathy, would you allow invisibility to defend against that?

Side Note: I am aware that it might make the target harder to hit, but for the sake of argument we're assuming that the target has been sucessfully hit and his EGO overcome by this invasive telepathic attack.

Can you refer me to a specific post (#) that described :less limited ego: ?

[Warp9]

Can you refer me to a specific post (#) that described :less limited ego: ?
I was referring to the concept that "Based on CON" is a -1 limitation.

The normal version is the "less limited" EGO version.

All I was asking is for a contrast between the normal version of Telepathy and the "based on CON" version. Sorry for any confusion. . . .

Would you allow standard Telepathy to be blocked by Invisibility?

[Kristopher]

Where do you stand on the *less limited* EGO based version of Telepathy, would you allow invisibility to defend against that?

Side Note: I am aware that it might make the target harder to hit, but for the sake of argument we're assuming that the target has been sucessfully hit and his EGO overcome by this invasive telepathic attack.

The Invisibility makes the target almost impossible to hit in the first place, by reducing the ranged OCV (or in this case ranged offensive ECV) of the attacker to zero.

Furthermore, one might rule that if the target's thoughts are Invisible, then no amount of Telepathic success would allow an attacker to perceive the target's thoughts...just as no amount of success on a hearing-based PER roll would allow a character to sense someone who is literally making no noise.

[Warp9]

The Invisibility makes the target almost impossible to hit in the first place, by reducing the ranged OCV (or in this case ranged offensive ECV) of the attacker to zero.

True. But that is not the point that I'm interested in at the moment.



Furthermore, one might rule that if the target's thoughts are Invisible, then no amount of Telepathic success would allow an attacker to perceive the target's thoughts...just as no amount of success on a hearing-based PER roll would allow a character to sense someone who is literally making no noise.

Now we're getting to the real point.

Going back to the "truth drug." Let's say that is my method to get at the target's thoughts. Are you saying that because those thoughts are "invisible," no amount of truth drug will let me get at them?

[Vondy]

I was referring to the concept that "Based on CON" is a -1 limitation.

The normal version is the "less limited" EGO version.

All I was asking is for a contrast between the normal version of Telepathy and the "based on CON" version. Sorry for any confusion. . . .

Would you allow standard Telepathy to be blocked by Invisibility?

In general, I would not. I've always been pedestrian and used the nomative interpretation of the LOS rule in my games, which implies "if you can see them you can hit them" (i.e., sight serves as a targeting sense for mental powers). Insofar as it was consistently applied, however, I wouldn't complain if the gamemaster chose to interpret the LOS rule as being limited to determining range and ruled the only targeting sense for mental powers was the mental sense group. Its internally consistent and I don't think it would introduce any real problems (since invisibility without fringe should be defined in such a way that there is some way for the mentalist to mentally find the character). For some constructs, like the mind blank example, it makes sense, but traditionally, sight is also a targeting sense for mental powers (and that is the sticking point!) - you have to change what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers for it to work. The notion (changing what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers) is not without merit and may be worth pondering. I have to think about it.

[Warp9]

In general, I would not. I've always been pedestrian and used the nomative interpretation of the LOS rule in my games, which implies "if you can see them you can hit them" (i.e., sight serves as a targeting sense for mental powers). Insofar as it was consistently applied, however, I wouldn't complain if the gamemaster chose to interpret the LOS rule as being limited to determining range and ruled the only targeting sense for mental powers was the mental sense group. Its internally consistent and I don't think it would introduce any real problems (since invisibility without fringe should be defined in such a way that there is some way for the mentalist to mentally find the character). For some constructs, like the mind blank example, it makes sense, but traditionally, sight is also a targeting sense for mental powers (and that is the sticking point!) - you have to change what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers for it to work. The notion (changing what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers) is not without merit and may be worth pondering. I have to think about it.
It is my (perhaps false) understanding that the discussion went beyond the "targeting" concept.

It was my understaning that the concept was that even if you "hit" with your telepathy, you would not be able to read any thoughts because of the invisibility factor (the hearing of the thoughts would itself constitute a violation of the invisibility). That is the matter I am concerned with.

[Vondy]

Furthermore, one might rule that if the target's thoughts are Invisible, then no amount of Telepathic success would allow an attacker to perceive the target's thoughts...just as no amount of success on a hearing-based PER roll would allow a character to sense someone who is literally making no noise.

Only a fool of a GM would allow someone to use invisibility to fufill such a broad SFX. Invisibility only serves to make it hard to target the character. As such, it is one method of avoiding having one's mind read (among many). If they character with invisibility to the mental sense group is hit then they're hit and no amount of "but I want the powers effects to extend beyond the mechanics" whining will suffice to make it so. If the player wants truly invisible thoughts that not only make them hard to locate (method one: invisibility) with the mental sense group, but also makes their thoughts invisible after they've been hit (method two: a separate realm of mechanics) then they need to purchase an additional power to sufficiently cover they're bases. Mental defense and damage reduction come to mind. SFX may properly limit a power in some cases, or give limited advantages in others, but it can't work outright mechanical miracles.

[Vondy]

It is my (perhaps false) understanding that the discussion went beyond the "targeting" concept.

It was my understaning that the concept was that even if you "hit" with your telepathy, you would not be able to read any thoughts because of the invisibility factor (the hearing of the thoughts would itself constitute a violation of the invisibility). That is the matter I am concerned with.

See my comments in post #92.

[Warp9]

Only a fool of a GM would allow someone to use invisibility to fufill such a broad SFX. Invisibility only serves to make it hard to target the character. As such, it is one method of avoiding having one's mind read (among many). If they character with invisibility to the mental sense group is hit then they're hit and no about of "but I want the powers effects to extend beyond the mechanics" whining will suffice to make it so. If the player wants truly invisible thoughts that not only make them hard to locate (method one: invisibility) with the mental sense group, but also makes their thoughts invisible after they've been hit (method two: a separate realm of mechanics) then they need to purchase an additional power to sufficiently cover they're bases. Mental defense and damage reduction come to mind. SFX may properly limit a power in some cases, or give limited advantages in others, but it can't work outright mechanical miracles.
I agree.

[prestidigitator]

I'm being too lazy to read more than the first post right now, but just off the top of my head I am thinking Mental Illusions built as a Damage Shield (automatically affects anyone who hits the character with a Mental Power).

[SteveZilla]

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. Since Invisibility affects other powers with "sense-like aspects" it should affect the "sense-like aspects" of Telepathy as well. Why would telepathy be immune when Clairsentience and Mind Scan are not?

Perhaps because neither of those powers "get inside" the target, while that is the whole point of Telepathy?

Personally I agree with the "by the book" way of Invisibility not being a defense against Telepathy, "sense-like aspects" or no. Otherwise, you have the case of Mental Group Invisibility (10 pts) = 100% Mental Damage Reduction (Resistant). :eek: Even if it's just for Telepathy, it's still too much for too little cost. Not to mention being an absolute defense, something that a Sense-Affecting Power shouldn't be (neither a defense nor absolute).

The people who suggested Shape Shift are close, but not quite there. If the attacking mentalist achieves a level of effect greater than "Surface Thoughts", they can "get under the mask" (something that can't be done going the Invisibility route).

So, here is my entry into the mix:

6 Mental Group Shape Shift (One Other Form: Joe Normal's Surface Thoughts, Nontargeting Group) - Zero END(+1/2), Persistent(+1/2), Inherent(+1/4) (11 Active Points), Limited Effect (Telepathy Only; -1/4), Always On(-1/2).

16 Mental Defense +40 - Only Vs. Telepathic Reading(-1), Only To Reduce Level Of Effect To Below EGO +10(-1/2).

Unless a *huge* amount of Telepathy is used, all a telepath will get will be surface thoughts (the limitation on the defense ensures that it's not blocked completely), and the Shape Shift ensures that it's only "uninteresting, normal" thoughts.

If you want to get really technical, you might need to apply Invisible Power Effects to the Shape Shift. That way, someone can't build a "Detect Mental Shape Shift" Sense and have an "Ah Ha!" moment with this NPC.

If you have any Mentalists with Armor Piercing, Penetrating, or Find Weakness on/with their Telepathy, you may need to add Hardened and/or Lack of Weakness to the mix.


Of course, this is just my ----- .-.-.- ----- ..--- dollars.

[prestidigitator]

Since you were interested in converting, I just re-read the D&D spell (at least the 3.5 version), and it doesn't just mask your thoughts, it provides complete protection against, "all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects." Whatever the SFX, this sounds to me like: 1.) Invisibility vs. all Sense Groups, but limited to, "Magic Only," which in a D&D-like setting would probably be like a -1 Limitation; 2.) a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, mental Damage Reduction, and/or some kind of strange mental Desolidification.

[Warp9]

A few more comments. . . .

Telepathy has been compared to hearing. I guess that brings up images of someone listening to a "mental radio."

With a normal sense situation (like hearing), you don't have to actively attack a specific target, and you don't have to overcome the target's defenses.

I would say that telepathy is different from hearing in that it is an invasive personal attack. It requires the attacker to blast through the target's mental defense, and overcome the target's ego in much the same manner as a mind control attack would.

Rather than comparing it to a hearing perception situation, I'd say it is like pinning a target down, inserting a needle into the target and extracting a tissue sample. Or it could also be compared to pinning a target down and injecting a large amount of truth drug. It represents a kind of domination of the target to force them to give you the information that you want.

IMO the mechanical differences between a perception roll and a telepathic attack are great enough that I would not treat Telepathy as a sense, in the same way that I'd treat hearing as a sense.

At the very least it creates a situation where Telepathy has both the limitations of an attack (must overcome target's defenses), and the limitations of a sense (can be blocked by invisibility/ShapeShift), that does not seem fair to me.

If you want to create a mental "sense" which would be affected by Shape Shift or Invisibility, I would consider a sense which works like Shadowrun's Aura Reading ability.

Aura Reading: You can assume that all creatures have auras which reflect important information about their emotions, and mental state. Reading these auras does not require an attack roll, and the target's mental defense in irrelevant in this case (your aura is just "out there" for anybody with the right skills to sense).

If you want to defend against Aura Reading, buy Invisibility to Mental Senses, or Mental Shape Shift. But if you want to defend against a Telepathic assult, buy Mental Defense.

Again all this stuff is just my opinion--it is not like there is really a RIGHT or WRONG way. Although I do think that there is a decent justification for treating Telepathy as an attack, and not treating it like a "sense."

[ThealaSildorian]

Even if the base from which he was working was a D&D power, I don't think in terms of D&D...I haven't for a long time.

What I did was I took the essence of what the "Mind Blank" spell does. Yes, it "prevents" the subjects mind from being read, but how does it do that? By making the subjects thoughts "invisible". A Telepath can get into your head, but when they get there, there appears to be nothing to read. It appears blank/empty.
That effect to me does not say "Mental Defense"...to me, Mental Defense is preventing someone from getting into your head. The effect screams Invisibility to Telepahty/Mind Link or perhaps Images vs Telepathy (the Image being a "blank mind")
My reasoning behind this is because Mental Defense denies you entry...Period. However, the "Mind Blank" spell/power simply makes your mind unreadable. A Telepath could still get into your head and send a Telepathic Mind Control command for you to kill your comrades....Mental Defense would prevent this, however the Mind Blank spell should not.

Besides, thats what these message boards are for...people to share ideas and try new things with the system...Mental Defense is the easy answer for something like this. Alternative/Unusual power constructs are what many of the newbies come to us veterans for anyway....

Ah, now that is an <i>excellent</i> point! I knew there was a reason why MD wasn't the answer, and that's it.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

But Invisibility to Mental Senses does not make your mind unreadable. If I look at you with my eyeballs and then roll my 12D6 of Telepathy, it doesn't do anything at all if you have Invisibility to Mental Group. You still get your mind read. Mental Powers can be used based off of Targeting Smell, if you have it. They aren't solely targeted based off of the Mental Sense Group. Thus, mechanically, Invisibility to Mental Group does not do what you want.

But Invisibility to Telepathy <i>does</i> which is the Power I've been considering using all the along. The more ideas I read here, the more I'm convinced I had the right idea in the first place. I just have better justifications and arguements to explain my choices mechanically if the question ever pops up during a game.




Mental Defense and Mental Reduction are the two powers that give you the game effect you're looking for. Those are the only two powers unless you go with some wonky Mental Illusions construct. Forget the names of the powers. Look at what game mechanic best performs what you're looking for. Here, it's Mental Defense or Mental Reduction. Despite the fact that Invisibiltiy sounds like it would be the appropriate power (based on the name), the game effect that Invisibility gives is not even close to the real effects of a Mind Blank spell.

The previous poster already gave an excellent explaination for why, so I won't repeat what he said here. MD and MR keep you <i>out</i>. Invisibility covers what happens when a telepath gets <i>in</i>.

[ThealaSildorian]

I can understand your points here.

My concern with the invisibility route is that it seems pretty cheap to make yourself absolutely immune to an unlimited amount of points of Telepathy.

Most senses are a bit more like the invisiblity, you have them or you don't (you have UV vision or you don't). It is kind of an all or nothing thing. I don't have as much problem with an all or nothing defense in this case.

Powers like Telepathy are not just an "all or nothing" category. 6d6 of Telepathy is much different than 26d6 of Telepathy. And the defense against telepathy should reflect this fact. And I have problems with an absolute defense that is totally effective even against 1000d6 of Telepathy. (all this stuff is just IMO, of course)

A valid point. However, Invisibilty is not an absolute Power anymore than anything else in the Hero System is. You still get a Perception Roll, in this case I would base it on Ego since that's the usual Characteristic ones Mental Powers are based on. Intelligence might possibly be another choice at GMs option.

I would say the player is due a PER bonus based on how well he scores on the Telepathy table, say +1 for every 5 above EGO after appropriate mental defenses are applied (I doubt I'll buy any--it's a spell not a true Mental ower this NPC has). If the Invisibility is bought No Fringe, say +1/10.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

It most certainly does, if the GM decides it does. Since the guy posting the question is the GM, its a perfectly valid option to suggest to him.


Her, btw :D I'm a girl.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

The Invisibility makes the target almost impossible to hit in the first place, by reducing the ranged OCV (or in this case ranged offensive ECV) of the attacker to zero.

Furthermore, one might rule that if the target's thoughts are Invisible, then no amount of Telepathic success would allow an attacker to perceive the target's thoughts...just as no amount of success on a hearing-based PER roll would allow a character to sense someone who is literally making no noise.

No, for the purposes of what we're discussing the Invisibility wouldn't affect ECV, though you do raise a good point. I would need to add a limitation. Doesn't Affect ECV for purposes of being hit with a Mental Power (-1/2). IMHO, since the SFX of the Power is so limited, it's not worth a big Limitation.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Going back to the "truth drug." Let's say that is my method to get at the target's thoughts. Are you saying that because those thoughts are "invisible," no amount of truth drug will let me get at them?

You just need to make a successful PER roll. The Invisibility just adds a big bonus to hiding ones true thoughts. The player needs to define a good SFX, like the <i>mind blank</i> spell I'm working on to explain it.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

So here's a draft of the Power as I'm thinking of constructing it for my NPC:

<b>Permanent Mind Blank</b>: Invisibility to Telepathy, no fringe, 0 END Persistent (+1), always on (-1/4), does not affect OCV/ECV for purposes of being targeted by a Mental Power (-1/2), target still able to be affected by telepathic commands (-1/2), only to read uninteresting or trivial thoughts (-1/4). BC 20, AP 40, RC 16.

The character has had the spell <i>Permanent Mind Blank</i> cast upon him. Anyone attempting to read the mind of this character reads only uninteresting or trivial thoughts. A telepath attempting to read this character's mind is still able to "get in", but cannot read more than the trivial or uninteresting without a successful Perception Roll modified as follows: +1 to PER for every 10 points greater than EGO scored on the Telepathy Table, after Mental Defenses. The character cannot shut the Power off to allow himself to be willingly read, and can still be targeted by a telepathic command. His ECV is unaffected by this Power for purposes of being hit.

Theala

[Fox1]

If you want to defend against Aura Reading, buy Invisibility to Mental Senses, or Mental Shape Shift. But if you want to defend against a Telepathic assult, buy Mental Defense.

Again all this stuff is just my opinion--it is not like there is really a RIGHT or WRONG way. Although I do think that there is a decent justification for treating Telepathy as an attack, and not treating it like a "sense."

I know I consider this use of invisibility unjustifiable and unbalancing. Which brings into question the whole concept of "making a build that can be used by other GMs".

I wouldn't touch such a character with a ten foot pole until the issue is addressed in the new 5th edition ulimate mentalist.

[Kristopher]

True. But that is not the point that I'm interested in at the moment.


Now we're getting to the real point.

Going back to the "truth drug." Let's say that is my method to get at the target's thoughts. Are you saying that because those thoughts are "invisible," no amount of truth drug will let me get at them?

For purposes of that question, the drug is not a mental power, and is not countered by Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group. It would be countered by various types of Resistance, a high CON, or LS: Immunity of an appropriate type.

[Warp9]

A valid point. However, Invisibilty is not an absolute Power anymore than anything else in the Hero System is. You still get a Perception Roll, in this case I would base it on Ego since that's the usual Characteristic ones Mental Powers are based on. Intelligence might possibly be another choice at GMs option.

I would say the player is due a PER bonus based on how well he scores on the Telepathy table, say +1 for every 5 above EGO after appropriate mental defenses are applied (I doubt I'll buy any--it's a spell not a true Mental ower this NPC has). If the Invisibility is bought No Fringe, say +1/10.

Theala
You'll have to give me a bit more on this matter.

Maybe something has changed in the revised edition of HERO. But in my copy of the rules, invisibility is an absolute, in that one becomes undetectable to the affected senses, especially if one gets rid of the fringe effect.

I actually like the idea of making invisibility so that it is not absolute, but that is not the way the rules currently run (at least to my understanding).

[Warp9]

You just need to make a successful PER roll. The Invisibility just adds a big bonus to hiding ones true thoughts. The player needs to define a good SFX, like the <i>mind blank</i> spell I'm working on to explain it.

Theala
I don't understand what you mean here. Could you please explain how a perception roll would apply to the "truth drug example" that we are talking about here.

[Warp9]

For purposes of that question, the drug is not a mental power, and is not countered by Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group. It would be countered by various types of Resistance, a high CON, or LS: Immunity of an appropriate type.
OK the truth drug telepathy is not a mental power.

BUT is this kind of telepathy still a sense?

[ThealaSildorian]

You'll have to give me a bit more on this matter.

Maybe something has changed in the revised edition of HERO. But in my copy of the rules, invisibility is an absolute, in that one becomes undetectable to the affected senses, especially if one gets rid of the fringe effect.

I actually like the idea of making invisibility so that it is not absolute, but that is not the way the rules currently run (at least to my understanding).

Well, yes and no. Yes, you don't get a PER roll if the Invisibility is bought No Fringe. But in Combat, you still get a chance to hit, just with a whopping big modifier to OCV/DCV (5ER, p 422). Since in the case of the Power I'm building that sort of "combat" isn't going to take place, I need to modify the mechanic to account--the "combat" is the struggle to get past the spells SFX. Instead of trying to get past ECV, the attacker needs to score high enough on the Telepathy Table, and the No Fringe affects his ability to do so through a Perception Roll.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

I don't understand what you mean here. Could you please explain how a perception roll would apply to the "truth drug example" that we are talking about here.

The discussion was, IIRC, how Invisibilty could be used to simulate a truth drug. My answer is, in the way way as the Power I'm attempting to build. What changes is the SFX. Say, the truth drug interacts with a medication the player is already on, or has an unanticipated side effect that clouds the mind rather than opens it.

This was often the case with Sodium Pentothal, which is why it is in disrepute in the medical community for its ability to "extract" the truth (it was often used by psychiatrists in the 1940's-50's to help patients recall events central to their mental trauma). Whether spy agencies still rely on it, I don't know--they don't always pay attention to medical science if they think something is useful.

Theala

[Warp9]

The discussion was, IIRC, how Invisibilty could be used to simulate a truth drug. My answer is, in the way way as the Power I'm attempting to build. What changes is the SFX. Say, the truth drug interacts with a medication the player is already on, or has an unanticipated side effect that clouds the mind rather than opens it.

This was often the case with Sodium Pentothal, which is why it is in disrepute in the medical community for its ability to "extract" the truth (it was often used by psychiatrists in the 1940's-50's to help patients recall events central to their mental trauma). Whether spy agencies still rely on it, I don't know--they don't always pay attention to medical science if they think something is useful.

Theala
I'm not talking about invisibility simulating a truth drug. I'm talking about Telepathy simulating a truth drug.

There are a number of examples of this functionality in the book.

Try 12d6 Telepathy, Based on CON.

added on edit:

What I'm interested in is what type of invisibility (what senses would it work against?) would be used to "block" a truth drug.

The closest thing I can think of is invisbility to hearing, since the target is going to be compelled to "speak the truth" rather than think it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Since you were interested in converting, I just re-read the D&D spell (at least the 3.5 version), and it doesn't just mask your thoughts, it provides complete protection against, "all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects." Whatever the SFX, this sounds to me like: 1.) Invisibility vs. all Sense Groups, but limited to, "Magic Only," which in a D&D-like setting would probably be like a -1 Limitation; 2.) a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, mental Damage Reduction, and/or some kind of strange mental Desolidification.

Whoah! Thats damned powerful. Well in that case I'd forgo Invisibility (or perhaps include Invisibility for the entire Mental Sense group as well as Invisibility vs Clairsentience....please lets leave that discussion for another thread!)

That sounds like lots of MD and 75% Mental Damage Reduction and possibly a Mental Force Wall to boot....

How about Darkness to Mental Group and Clairsentience? Anyone trying to "scan" them mentally or magically gets naught but static....(probably have to write the Darkness up as Invisible to all normal senses to cover the Clairsentience properly...how much does that cost anyway?)

[NuSoardGraphite]

NuSoard, I'm gonna have to wait to fully respond to your last post. I see where you're going with it, but I loaned my copy of 5th to the group retard, so I can't check the actual rules until I get it back. Since Invisibility vs Telepathy is definitely a rules-heavy issue, I can't really go on any further until I get my book back.

No problemo. I'm a patient kinda guy. Its been a good discussion so far with good points on all sides (you are a tough opponent! I bow to you) :hail:

I haven't had a discussion like this since the old days when I used to argue with Champsguy all the time....

[ThealaSildorian]

Since you were interested in converting, I just re-read the D&D spell (at least the 3.5 version), and it doesn't just mask your thoughts, it provides complete protection against, "all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects." Whatever the SFX, this sounds to me like: 1.) Invisibility vs. all Sense Groups, but limited to, "Magic Only," which in a D&D-like setting would probably be like a -1 Limitation; 2.) a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, mental Damage Reduction, and/or some kind of strange mental Desolidification.

I missed this message earlier--replying late, sorry. D&D 3.0 is pretty much the same thing, but I'm working off the description of the spell's effects on the character (an old 1st ed AD&D character). The 1st ed description was equally all encompassing. To be true to my conversion, I'm going with the canon description of the NPC, and thus limiting the Power to those attempting to read his mind to viewing "trivial thoughts." This keeps the Power from being too Powerful--some think it too powerful as it is.

Mental Desolid is an interesting idea: "You sense his mind, but you just can't grab a hold of it."

Theala

[Hugh Neilson]

The other thing I was thinking of, was Shape Shift (Mental Group), to make your thoughts seem uninteresting. Should be pretty cheap actually.

Nice solution - and the first use for "shape shift by sense group" I've seen.

[Magmarock]

My 2 cents: Classify your PC's mind as Alien.

Here's why: In 5th ed, it is so freakin' expensive to buy up a Mentalist's powers to affect others characters beyond Human Class minds, that 99.9% of the Mentalists your PC will run into are bound to only have access to the Human Class of minds. Problem solved.

Additionally, those few who can affect beyond the Human Class of minds will have a lower overall effect on your PC, so with a decent amount of Mental Def your PC should be a-ok.


Cheers,

Mags

[Warp9]

Are people who suggest that Telepathy should be ineffective vs various sense manipulating abilities (Invisibility, Shape Shift, etc. . . .) taking the view that Telepathy is actually a sense?

Or is the concept that Telepathy is an attack that has some qualities which would logically make it suseptable to sense manipulating abilities?

[Kristopher]

At least in my case, I'm suggesting that, possibly, Mental powers should be targeted against the Mental sense group, not the Sight group. It's not as if you can see someone's mind with your eyes.

Thus, Telepathy, being a Mental power in most cases, is going to be difficult to use against someone with Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group -- because the Telepath's offensive ranged ECV will be at zero against the character with that Invis.

[C--]

At least in my case, I'm suggesting that, possibly, Mental powers should be targeted against the Mental sense group, not the Sight group. It's not as if you can see someone's mind with your eyes.


Except I can buy Telepathy without buying any "mental senses". I get Mental Awareness for free, but it's not targeting. So... what mental sense am I using to target? If I get hit with a Sight Flash can I still use my Telepathy?

[Vondy]

Except I can buy Telepathy without buying any "mental senses". I get Mental Awareness for free, but it's not targeting. So... what mental sense am I using to target? If I get hit with a Sight Flash can I still use my Telepathy?

As the system currently reads: if you were sight flashed and the mental sense group is not targeting, you would have to use Mind Scan to lock onto your target before using Telepathy. Purchasing targeting for the mental sense group is probably a "Good Idea (TM)."

[C--]

As the system currently reads: if you were sight flashed and the mental sense group is not targeting, you would have to use Mind Scan to lock onto your target before using Telepathy. Purchasing targeting for the mental sense group is probably a "Good Idea (TM)."

I know that. I'm talking about Kristopher's way he thinks it should be done. I was pointing out some problems with it.

[Vondy]

I know that. I'm talking about Kristopher's way he thinks it should be done. I was pointing out some problems with it.

I don't see it as being particularly problematic. I don't do it that way, myself, but insofar as house rules go, its internally consistent. The mentalist may not have to pay for targeting for their mental sense group in his method, but they have lost the ability to use the sight group as targeting for their mental powers. Sight, under those circumstances, only serves to establish range.

[NuSoardGraphite]

So Telepathy is not a sense.

Then why does Flash affect Telepathy as if it is a sense?

Page 231 of 5E (not the Revised version) under the heading Darkness and Flash Versus The Mental sense Group:

It says if the Mental sense group is Flashed, Telepahty and Mind Scan can only be targeted via LOS, and not Mind Scan. However, since Telepathy and Mind Scan have also been flashed, they cannot read the thoughts of anyone within LOS...their "Mental Hearing" has been deafened.

Unless this has been changed in the Revised Edition, apparently they do treat Telepathy and Mind Link as senses, otherwise Flash and Darkness would be useless against them.....

[Warp9]

At least in my case, I'm suggesting that, possibly, Mental powers should be targeted against the Mental sense group, not the Sight group. It's not as if you can see someone's mind with your eyes.

Thus, Telepathy, being a Mental power in most cases, is going to be difficult to use against someone with Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group -- because the Telepath's offensive ranged ECV will be at zero against the character with that Invis.
If you proceed in that manner, then that one type of invisibility can make you almost immune to a mentalist. That would be pretty unbalancing.

[Warp9]

So Telepathy is not a sense.

Then why does Flash affect Telepathy as if it is a sense?

Page 231 of 5E (not the Revised version) under the heading Darkness and Flash Versus The Mental sense Group:

It says if the Mental sense group is Flashed, Telepahty and Mind Scan can only be targeted via LOS, and not Mind Scan. However, since Telepathy and Mind Scan have also been flashed, they cannot read the thoughts of anyone within LOS...their "Mental Hearing" has been deafened.

Unless this has been changed in the Revised Edition, apparently they do treat Telepathy and Mind Link as senses, otherwise Flash and Darkness would be useless against them.....
Well, I'll admit that it seems to indicate that telepathy works as a kind of "mental hearing."

This sort of thing creates a Double Jeopardy effect for Telepathy. It has all the bad aspects of a sense (it can be affected by the sense affecting powers like flash), and all the bad aspects of a power (it must make an attack roll and overcome defenses).

[NuSoardGraphite]

If you proceed in that manner, then that one type of invisibility can make you almost immune to a mentalist. That would be pretty unbalancing.

Depends on the campaign.

In a Psionics based campaign, yes that type of ability would be quite powerful and should be reserved for extremely powerful NPC villians (like the main one) and situations like that.

In a Supers game, it would cripple a Mentalist, but other characters would not be affected at all. And many Superheroic Mentalists would have another way of dealing with their foe (TK or simply punch him!)

In a Space Opera game, where Mental Powers exist but are not too prevalent, it would not be crippling at all. Mind Control doesn't work on your foe? Shoot him with your X-289 Blaster Pistol. Problem solved.

Its also a great way for GM's to prevent that annoying Mentalist character from finding out way too much information before the PC's need to know it...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Well, I'll admit that it seems to indicate that telepathy works as a kind of "mental hearing."

This sort of thing creates a Double Jeopardy effect for Telepathy. It has all the bad aspects of a sense (it can be affected by the sense affecting powers like flash), and all the bad aspects of a power (it must make an attack roll and overcome defenses).

I see this as a good thing.

Why?

Because aside from Transform, Mental Powers (esp Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusion) are some of the most versatile powers in the game, bar none. They allow you to get a great number of effects for a relatively reasonable price. (and in a campaign where most people don't posses Mental Defense, its not at all expensive to be effective)

A character with Telapthy can simply "dive" into someones mind and learn all their secrets, including Psychological disads, Vulnerabilities and susceptibilities. DNPC's....the whole enchilada. Then in the next phase, Telepathically communicate these weaknesses to his comrades so that they may take advantage of them.

Thats powerful.

A character with Mind Control can force someone to hurt himself, his comrades, do things that would get him thrown in jail. Give up their wallet or credit cards. Or simply "Open the door and forget you ever saw me". Superstealth without buying Desolid (to get through a locked door) and Invisiblity or Stealth (to get past the guard).

Thats very powerful.

A character with Mental illusion can not only convince someone they see/hear/taste/smell something thats not there...they can make them believ it so much that they take physical damage from it. They can put someone into an illusion so completely they cease to interact with the real world. Then you can do with them as you please (the power of choice for rapists and child molestors, to be certain). Neither Images nor Shapeshift is anywhere near this potent.

Thats incredibly powerful.

Thus, I don't have a problem with Mental Powers being effected in this manner. #1, its going to be rare, so my PC's will almost never have to deal with it. #2 they get so many benefits from their Mental Powers, I'm going to slap any jerky who tries to whine to me when his character can't affect 1 measly NPC with their Telepathy....

[Warp9]

I see this as a good thing.

Why?

Because aside from Transform, Mental Powers (esp Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusion) are some of the most versatile powers in the game, bar none. They allow you to get a great number of effects for a relatively reasonable price. (and in a campaign where most people don't posses Mental Defense, its not at all expensive to be effective)

A character with Telapthy can simply "dive" into someones mind and learn all their secrets, including Psychological disads, Vulnerabilities and susceptibilities. DNPC's....the whole enchilada. Then in the next phase, Telepathically communicate these weaknesses to his comrades so that they may take advantage of them.

Thats powerful.

A character with Mind Control can force someone to hurt himself, his comrades, do things that would get him thrown in jail. Give up their wallet or credit cards. Or simply "Open the door and forget you ever saw me". Superstealth without buying Desolid (to get through a locked door) and Invisiblity or Stealth (to get past the guard).

Thats very powerful.

A character with Mental illusion can not only convince someone they see/hear/taste/smell something thats not there...they can make them believ it so much that they take physical damage from it. They can put someone into an illusion so completely they cease to interact with the real world. Then you can do with them as you please (the power of choice for rapists and child molestors, to be certain). Neither Images nor Shapeshift is anywhere near this potent.

Thats incredibly powerful.

Thus, I don't have a problem with Mental Powers being effected in this manner. #1, its going to be rare, so my PC's will almost never have to deal with it. #2 they get so many benefits from their Mental Powers, I'm going to slap any jerky who tries to whine to me when his character can't affect 1 measly NPC with their Telepathy....
But it is not Mental Powers as a whole that are affected. It is only Telepathy that is affected in this manner.

Powers like Mind Control, and Mental Illusions (which I would say are even more powerful than Telepathy) are not impacted by this problem.

[NuSoardGraphite]

But it is not Mental Powers as a whole that are affected. It is only Telepathy that is affected in this manner.

Powers like Mind Control, and Mental Illusions (which I would say are even more powerful than Telepathy) are not impacted by this problem.

True, but Mind Control and Mental Illusions are only good if you can target your foe. If you are prevented from this, their effectiveness is stilted.

But even if you have LOS on the foe and can still bring Mind Control and Mental Illusion to bear on the opponent, being denied the ability to use Telepathy to "recon" the opponents mind for important psychological Disads which make Mind Control and Mental Illusions several orders easier to acomplish helps ease the GM's headaches when dealing with Mentalist PC's.

Trust me, the GM will save money on Aspirin this way!

[Warp9]

True, but Mind Control and Mental Illusions are only good if you can target your foe. If you are prevented from this, their effectiveness is stilted.

But even if you have LOS on the foe and can still bring Mind Control and Mental Illusion to bear on the opponent, being denied the ability to use Telepathy to "recon" the opponents mind for important psychological Disads which make Mind Control and Mental Illusions several orders easier to acomplish helps ease the GM's headaches when dealing with Mentalist PC's.

Trust me, the GM will save money on Aspirin this way!
Punishing Telepaths (who may only be mind readers) because with that power you can get as advantage, if you Mind Control or Mental Illusions, is like punishing all Politicians, because many are corrupt.

If you think that Mind Control and Mental Illusions are too powerful, I would suggest putting restrictions in place that actually target those powers.

[Warp9]

From the Rules FAQ on this site:




Q: What effects does having Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group have? Does it hide a character from Mind Scan or Telepathy? Can the character still use Telepathy to send and receive thoughts, Mind Scan to search for minds, and so forth?



A: Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group hides the character from Mental Group senses. That includes Mind Scan (see 5ER 160). It generally doesn’t matter against Telepathy, since that requires LOS — if the mentalist can see you, he can use his Telepathy on you, since Telepathy isn’t a Mental Sense Group sense (even though it has sense-like aspects).


I'd say that pretty much answers the question that we've been looking at. . . .

[Kirby]

I'd say that pretty much answers the question that we've been looking at. . . .
Well, I wish you had stated that earlier. :nya: Repped.

[NuSoardGraphite]

From the Rules FAQ on this site:



I'd say that pretty much answers the question that we've been looking at. . . .

Yeah, that was brought up much ealier in this thread and I intend to ignore it.

So Telepathy is not a sense, but Flash effects it.

If Telepathy is not a sense, Flash should have no effect on it.

Contradictions abound.

However, the contradictions are consistant, because that same thing applies to Darkness vs Mental Sense group...if the character can get LOS via sight or another non-mental targeting sense, then Telepathy is unrestricted.

I guess Flash is a special case.

However, IMO, Telepathy is a Mental Sense. It is used to gather information...thats exactly what senses do. It is treated as a power because this is necessary to determine the amount of information discovered, but ultimately it is used to "Watch" memories, and to "Hear" thoughts. Thats just my take on it, anyway.

[Warp9]

Yeah, that was brought up much ealier in this thread and I intend to ignore it.

Must have missed that--my bad.



So Telepathy is not a sense, but Flash effects it.

If Telepathy is not a sense, Flash should have no effect on it.

Contradictions abound.

However, the contradictions are consistant, because that same thing applies to Darkness vs Mental Sense group...if the character can get LOS via sight or another non-mental targeting sense, then Telepathy is unrestricted.

I guess Flash is a special case.

I also don't understand why flash should have any impact if Telepathy is not a mental sense.

And actually if your "mental hearing" is taken out by flash, then you shouldn't be able to hear yourself think. That would be a strange experience :lol:



However, IMO, Telepathy is a Mental Sense. It is used to gather information...thats exactly what senses do. It is treated as a power because this is necessary to determine the amount of information discovered, but ultimately it is used to "Watch" memories, and to "Hear" thoughts. Thats just my take on it, anyway.

Here I disagree.

Basically I see the sense affecting powers as acting at a superficial level (they deal with the world of "appearances").

IMO something like Telepathy works on a deeper level.

A mental shape shifter on a WWII combat mission might dulpicate a nazi mentality on the outside, but he probably wouldn't want to change into one on the inside. If he did then he'd probably start shooting at his friends.

The shifted Nazi would probably show up on a mental based Sense such as: detect racist fanatic.

But Telepathy digs deeper than that (past the defenses, and down into the mind), in order to fool Telepathy the target would actually have to become a racist fanatic.

Or to put in a different way, you can Shape Shift into an Angolian Rock Creature in every sense group, even down to the cellular level. But when push comes to shove (and by "push comes to shove" I mean that attack rolls are made and real defenses come into play) you are not an Angolian Rock Creature.

The resemblance to the Rock Creature is superficial, and does not stand up to any sort of real attack. You may feel like such a creature until I punch you, but on the real rock creature, I'd break my hand. If I jabbed the rock creature with a metal needle, that needle would bend. IMO Telepathy is like jabbing the rock creature with the needle.

[Warp9]

And to answer to original question. . . . How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

I'd use mental defense with the limitation only to protect against mind reading. That way attackers can get into the target's mind for other purposes, they just will not be able to read anything there.

Just buy enough Mental Defence so that you don't have to worry about any attack in the campaign. Perhaps with some advantages like hardened, and maybe invisible effects (if you accept Fox1's argument along those lines).

And remember that the defense applies to each separate roll on a cumaltive attack, so with enough defense, you'll also be totally protected from those cumalitive attacks too.

[Enforcer84]

How do I keep my mind from being read? It's written in braile.

[Kirby]

Yeah, that was brought up much ealier in this thread and I intend to ignore it.
In that case, you'll have to create whatever you want if you just ignore what you don't like.


So Telepathy is not a sense, but Flash effects it.

If Telepathy is not a sense, Flash should have no effect on it.

Contradictions abound.
Actually, it states that Telepathy is not a mental sense. If it is dependent on LOS, then obviously the sight sense is implied, hence why a sight flash would work.

However, you are always allowed to run your campaign your way.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Actually, it states that Telepathy is not a mental sense. If it is dependent on LOS, then obviously the sight sense is implied, hence why a sight flash would work.


Ah, you misunderstand mr. Kirby.

What I'm perplexed about is the fact that a Mental Flash (a Flash aimed at the Mental Sense Group) effects the "Mental Hearing" aspect of Telepathy, and prevents a Telepath from reading thoughts. However a person with Invisiblity to Mental Sense Group does not have their thoughts hidden from Telepathy.

Its a somewhat contradictory ruling. In once sense the 5E treats Telepathy as a Sense (by allowing it to be flashed directly, not indirectly through sight as most people would do) but on the other hand, it is not a sense (in that it is a power and Invisiblity does not work against it directly)

Now do you see where my problem with this ruling comes in?

[Hugh Neilson]

Hmmm...no one's suggsted Mental Shrinking yet. :nya:

[Hey, if you can't find it, you can't read it - and +20 EVC only to defend vs mindreading would be pretty effective.]

[Anaxphone]

Hmmm...no one's suggsted Mental Shrinking yet. :nya:
:rofl:

I can't control his mind! His brain's just too tiny!

Anaxphone, I guess this is why villian mentalists haven't dominated all the politicians...

[Kirby]

What I'm perplexed about is the fact that a Mental Flash (a Flash aimed at the Mental Sense Group) effects the "Mental Hearing" aspect of Telepathy, and prevents a Telepath from reading thoughts. However a person with Invisiblity to Mental Sense Group does not have their thoughts hidden from Telepathy.

Its a somewhat contradictory ruling. In once sense the 5E treats Telepathy as a Sense (by allowing it to be flashed directly, not indirectly through sight as most people would do) but on the other hand, it is not a sense (in that it is a power and Invisiblity does not work against it directly)

Now do you see where my problem with this ruling comes in?
Perhaps somewhat, but not really. I don't see "Telepathy" as a sense, but as an attack. The defenses versus it are ECV and Mental defense.

A mental Flash would affect the mental sense group, which is Mental Awareness & Mind Scan; thus you are flashing/blinding the person to sensing with their mind (like you would eyes or ears).

The analogy, to me, is that you can blind an EB, but that doesn't prevent them from attacking with their EB. If you sight flashed the mentalist, he couldn't use the LOS of Telepathy. If you mental flash a mentalist, he couldn't "see" mental powers being used, but he could still use his own, such as ego blast, mind control, and telepathy, because they are all attacks.

I hope this helps.

[RDU Neil]

Perhaps somewhat, but not really. I don't see "Telepathy" as a sense, but as an attack. The defenses versus it are ECV and Mental defense.

A mental Flash would affect the mental sense group, which is Mental Awareness & Mind Scan; thus you are flashing/blinding the person to sensing with their mind (like you would eyes or ears).

The analogy, to me, is that you can blind an EB, but that doesn't prevent them from attacking with their EB. If you sight flashed the mentalist, he couldn't use the LOS of Telepathy. If you mental flash a mentalist, he couldn't "see" mental powers being used, but he could still use his own, such as ego blast, mind control, and telepathy, because they are all attacks.

I hope this helps.

And this is how I would... and have... ruled it for many years. Works just fine.

The "Mental Flash" and the "Invisibility to Mental Sense" as conflicting rulings is one of those "Why I ignore the FAQ and just make my own decisions" situations.

[tesuji]

[/QUOTE]



Because aside from Transform, Mental Powers (esp Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusion) are some of the most versatile powers in the game, bar none. They allow you to get a great number of effects for a relatively reasonable price. (and in a campaign where most people don't posses Mental Defense, its not at all expensive to be effective)

nice in theory but IMX not real in practice at all.


A character with Telapthy can simply "dive" into someones mind and learn all their secrets, including Psychological disads, Vulnerabilities and susceptibilities. DNPC's....the whole enchilada. Then in the next phase, Telepathically communicate these weaknesses to his comrades so that they may take advantage of them.

this requires more than one phase and maintaining telepathy for long periods of time is difficult.


A character with Mind Control can force someone to hurt himself, his comrades, do things that would get him thrown in jail. Give up their wallet or credit cards. Or simply "Open the door and forget you ever saw me". Superstealth without buying Desolid (to get through a locked door) and Invisiblity or Stealth (to get past the guard).

the formers usually require lots of effect to achieve +20 style results. The latters don't last too long as breakout rolls with plusses tend to break the guy free of your "dont remember me" fairly quickly. odds are the vicimt remembers you within a minute (three ego rolls.)


Thats very powerful.
A character with Mental illusion can not only convince someone they see/hear/taste/smell something thats not there...they can make them believ it so much that they take physical damage from it. They can put someone into an illusion so completely they cease to interact with the real world. Then you can do with them as you please (the power of choice for rapists and child molestors, to be certain). Neither Images nor Shapeshift is anywhere near this potent.

again, the effects you list require higher levels in the power and ego rolls get them out fairly quickly. I really dont see a molester with buckets of dice in mental illusion doing much before the breakout roll is made.

Sorry but i really don't see mental powers as some boogeyman.

[ThealaSildorian]

Except I can buy Telepathy without buying any "mental senses". I get Mental Awareness for free, but it's not targeting. So... what mental sense am I using to target? If I get hit with a Sight Flash can I still use my Telepathy?

Hearing's a sense, you get it for free, and it's not Targeting either.

Telepathy doesn't target a mental sense, it targets a mind.

And no, if you get hit with a Sight Flash, you can't use your Telepathy unless you have Mind Scan because it requires Line of Sight.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

So Telepathy is not a sense.

Then why does Flash affect Telepathy as if it is a sense?

Page 231 of 5E (not the Revised version) under the heading Darkness and Flash Versus The Mental sense Group:

It says if the Mental sense group is Flashed, Telepahty and Mind Scan can only be targeted via LOS, and not Mind Scan. However, since Telepathy and Mind Scan have also been flashed, they cannot read the thoughts of anyone within LOS...their "Mental Hearing" has been deafened.

Unless this has been changed in the Revised Edition, apparently they do treat Telepathy and Mind Link as senses, otherwise Flash and Darkness would be useless against them.....

It's page 355 in 5ER. Hero System treats Telepathy as a mental "voice." If Mental Senses are Flashed, the Telepath's ability to hear those voices is "deafened." Ironically, his ability to communicate with <i>others</i> is <i>not</i> affected: just like someone who is deaf is still able to speak (Steve's example).

It's one of those "it is, but it isn't" situations. For example, Hearing is a Sense, we can buy it in a variety of forms. We can buy a variety of forms of communication, like HRRH. But Speech is not a sense, although I would argue you could buy levels to increase the Perception Rolls of others (Loud Voice).

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Perhaps somewhat, but not really. I don't see "Telepathy" as a sense, but as an attack. The defenses versus it are ECV and Mental defense.

A mental Flash would affect the mental sense group, which is Mental Awareness & Mind Scan; thus you are flashing/blinding the person to sensing with their mind (like you would eyes or ears).

The analogy, to me, is that you can blind an EB, but that doesn't prevent them from attacking with their EB. If you sight flashed the mentalist, he couldn't use the LOS of Telepathy. If you mental flash a mentalist, he couldn't "see" mental powers being used, but he could still use his own, such as ego blast, mind control, and telepathy, because they are all attacks.

I hope this helps.

The problem with this analogy is that when you "attack" with Telepathy, you have to roll vs a table and overcome EGO to achieve an effect. Not so with energy blast. You roll OCV vs DCV and if you hit you roll damage. If you get past their defenses they take the damage. With Telepathy, you roll your damage, and if you get past their mental defense you compare it to a table and you <i>still</i> might not achieve any effect.

Theala

[C--]

Hearing's a sense, you get it for free, and it's not Targeting either.

You missed the point. This came about because of the "you should only target mental powers with mental senses." These weren't just generic questions, but designed to point out problems with that line of thinking.

Well, if I buy Telepathy only, then I don't have any Targeting mental senses. Yes, I got Hearing for free. But I can still use Sight to target my Sonic Blast. If I buy Telepathy and Telepathy alone, then I don't have any mental senses that I can use to target it. Mental Awareness is not Targeting, and it's the only mental sense that I get for free.


Telepathy doesn't target a mental sense, it targets a mind.

And no, if you get hit with a Sight Flash, you can't use your Telepathy unless you have Mind Scan because it requires Line of Sight.

Theala

Telepathy requires a Targeting sense, unless you want to make it a non-targeting perception roll. My point was, if I can't use my Sight to target Telepathy, then the Sight Flash shouldn't make any difference.

[NuSoardGraphite]

A mental Flash would affect the mental sense group, which is Mental Awareness & Mind Scan; thus you are flashing/blinding the person to sensing with their mind (like you would eyes or ears).

But according to the rules in the 5E (FREd) page 227, it states that "to a limited extent" Telepathy and Mind Link are part of the Mental Sense Group. As Mental "hearing" and Mental "Voice". They are considered a part of this sense group for the purpose of applying Sense-affecting Powers.

On 231 it goes on to mention specifically how Darkness and Flash affect Telepathy and Mind Link (yet Invisibility is nowhere to be seen) It states that Darkness only takes effect if a target doesn't have LOS on the target, but if the target has LOS via another Targeting sense (usually sight) Darkness vs Mental Group is useless against Telepathy and Mind Link. This I mostly agree with.

However, it then goes on to state that if Telepathy and/or Mind Link are Flashed, the "Mental Hearing" aspects of those two powers have been effectively deafened. Even if a Telepath has visual LOS on a target and can make a successful ECV attack roll against them, once in the Targets head, they can still hear nothing...they cannot recieve thoughts of any sort. The receptive aspects of their Telepathy and Mind Link have been shut down.

Yet, a character who has Invisiblity to Mental Sense group can't use that invisiblity to block Telepathic invasion.

This is contradictory. This is what I have a problem with....

Of course, I'm not going to whine about it and complain that Steve should change it...not at all. However, what I will do is continue to suggest Invisiblity as a valid build for those who wish to build characters who can hide their thoughts from a Telepath. Because according to the 5E, Telepathy and Mind link are indeed part of the Mental Sense Group.

[NuSoardGraphite]

nice in theory but IMX not real in practice at all.

Oh, I have experience this in practice. I've had Mentalists run rampshod over a supers campaign that I've run. And they were playing with the same active point limit everyone else is. Problem is 60 Active points of a Mental Power can be far more effective than 60 Active points of Energy Blast!

Why?

Because most non-mentalist characters in Supers games have shiite for Mental Defenses of any kind. They have buttloads of Physical and Energy Defenses, so a 12D6 Energy Blast is nothing to them, but most non-mentalists have less than 10pts of Mental Defense (and a good majority of them having none) which makes 12D6 Mind Control godly.




this requires more than one phase and maintaining telepathy for long periods of time is difficult.

Thats fine. If thats the first thing the Telepath does in combat, that means by segment 6 (in most games, assuming a Mentalist with SPD 4) of the 1st turn, the character who could put the most damage on an enemy has been informed of that enemies weakspot. Without the Telepath it could take several turns to discover the enemies weakness, if at all. (it could be discovered quickly, but only if they are lucky. With a Telepath in the group, its not just a matter of "if" but "when")



the formers usually require lots of effect to achieve +20 style results. The latters don't last too long as breakout rolls with plusses tend to break the guy free of your "dont remember me" fairly quickly. odds are the vicimt remembers you within a minute (three ego rolls.)

Assuming a Non-mentalist character with an Ego of 20 (usually less):

in a campaign that supports 60 active point powers (and from what I've read here, thats pretty low) which gives us 12D6 of Mind Control to work with....

Average on 12D6 is 44pts.

Result acheived: Ego +24

Well, you can't quite convince a character who isn't suicidal to "kill himself" with that roll (6pts short! Damn it!) but the great thing about most villians is that they don't mind killing their comrades at all (thats part of what makes them villians! No loyalty to speak of) except for in rare circumstances.

And don't make me calculate a 60 active point Mind Control effect on a security guard with 0 Mental Defense and an Ego of 10. Not only would he let you in and not remember, he'd give you directions to the power plant you need to disable...



again, the effects you list require higher levels in the power and ego rolls get them out fairly quickly. I really dont see a molester with buckets of dice in mental illusion doing much before the breakout roll is made.

Not really. In a 60 active point campaign (and I've seen several here who support 75 active or even 90 active point games, including myself) the above numbers I posted were average rolls. Much higher results could easily be achieved several times in a game session (of course, lower rolls would be seen as well) and the smart Mentalist player will choose his victims based on their inability to resist...such as the guard with 10 Ego and 0 Mental Defense, or the Brick Villian with the 15 Ego and 8pts of Mental Defense and convinces him to start pummelling his buddies...

Those are the types of players I've had in my games. They are very effective with Mental Powers, so I don't have a problem comming up with the occasional NPC who throws a whammy their way like Invisibility to Mental Sense group or something similar.




Sorry but i really don't see mental powers as some boogeyman.

I don't see them as a boogeyman...on the contrary, I love the way Hero handles Mental Powers. They are effective. Moreso than any RPG I've ever played and for that, I love Hero all the more.

However I realize exactly how effective Mental Powers can be, if wielded by an intelligent and thoughtful player and thus don't mind coming up with the ocasional counter-power to mess with them from time to time...

[prestidigitator]

I see this as a good thing.

Why?

Because aside from Transform, Mental Powers (esp Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusion) are some of the most versatile powers in the game, bar none. They allow you to get a great number of effects for a relatively reasonable price. (and in a campaign where most people don't posses Mental Defense, its not at all expensive to be effective)

A character with Telapthy can simply "dive" into someones mind and learn all their secrets, including Psychological disads, Vulnerabilities and susceptibilities. DNPC's....the whole enchilada. Then in the next phase, Telepathically communicate these weaknesses to his comrades so that they may take advantage of them.

Thats powerful.

A character with Mind Control can force someone to hurt himself, his comrades, do things that would get him thrown in jail. Give up their wallet or credit cards. Or simply "Open the door and forget you ever saw me". Superstealth without buying Desolid (to get through a locked door) and Invisiblity or Stealth (to get past the guard).

Thats very powerful.

A character with Mental illusion can not only convince someone they see/hear/taste/smell something thats not there...they can make them believ it so much that they take physical damage from it. They can put someone into an illusion so completely they cease to interact with the real world. Then you can do with them as you please (the power of choice for rapists and child molestors, to be certain). Neither Images nor Shapeshift is anywhere near this potent.

Thats incredibly powerful.

Thus, I don't have a problem with Mental Powers being effected in this manner. #1, its going to be rare, so my PC's will almost never have to deal with it. #2 they get so many benefits from their Mental Powers, I'm going to slap any jerky who tries to whine to me when his character can't affect 1 measly NPC with their Telepathy....
The problem with these arguments is that they do not apply to Mental Powers specifically. The results you point out require that you get very high levels of effect. With similar levels of effect, you could kill someone outright with a Killing Attack, knock them into a coma with a Normal Attack, trap them indefinitely with an Entangle, Transform them completely into something useless, etc. I would agree that when characters take Mental Powers they tend to Limit them less than other Powers are often Limited, so they tend to be more generic. But that also makes them cost more, and I don't think it is anything inherent in the Powers themselves, so I think it is all reasonably balanced.

[prestidigitator]

However, IMO, Telepathy is a Mental Sense. It is used to gather information...thats exactly what senses do. It is treated as a power because this is necessary to determine the amount of information discovered, but ultimately it is used to "Watch" memories, and to "Hear" thoughts. Thats just my take on it, anyway.
Well, I don't think that everything used to gather information should necessarily be considered a sense. For example, is my Contact Perk a sense? KSs could in a way be defined as gathering information from memory. Are they senses? How about Skills such as Tracking? Some means of gathering information simply utilize other senses, or aren't useful to define as a, "sense," in mechanical terms. I agree that having Flash affect Telepathy when it isn't defined as a sense is odd, though. I'd like it to at least be consistent. If you can Flash Telepathy, you should be able to be Invisible to it as well, or create a region of Darkness to it (whether that region be defined in physical terms or in a way similar to the, "area," of Mind Scan).

[prestidigitator]

I missed this message earlier--replying late, sorry. D&D 3.0 is pretty much the same thing, but I'm working off the description of the spell's effects on the character (an old 1st ed AD&D character). The 1st ed description was equally all encompassing. To be true to my conversion, I'm going with the canon description of the NPC, and thus limiting the Power to those attempting to read his mind to viewing "trivial thoughts." This keeps the Power from being too Powerful--some think it too powerful as it is.

Mental Desolid is an interesting idea: "You sense his mind, but you just can't grab a hold of it."
Given that goal, I would go with sufficient (possibly Hardened) MD+DR to make it near impossible to affect the character beyond the level of surface thoughts. I wouldn't try to get complex with it; just say the jumbled thoughts make it difficult to get even coherent surface thoughts, rather than trying to Limit it in some way. Wave it off as Special Effects. You could even have it affect other Mental Powers if you wanted to broaden the justification a little (the jumble of thoughts makes it difficult to interject a mental command; there already seem to be a confusion of mental images there, and the illusions just slip in among the rest without having much affect on the character's true perceptions; etc. to taste).

However, if you did want to limit the defense(s) to Telepathy alone, I would say that -2 is probably appropriate for a D&D-like setting, as Telepathy seems quite uncommon even among mind-affecting magic. If your campaign differs, another value might obviously be appropriate.

Consider even 10 Ego, 20 MD, and 25% Mental DR. That would require (on average) a 10d6 (50 APs) to even read surface thoughts. To go beyond surface thoughts would require 14d6 (70 APs) on average. If you have AP limits in the game, it should be easy to define a combination which will make the character, "immune," to appropriate Mental Powers of a given level of effect. If you have no AP limits, or certain villains/spells/effects can go above them, you could make it bigger, or simply define it at a reasonably high level and hand-wave the rest.

You might run into a problem with Cumulative Mental Powers too, so the Mental Defense portion of the defense should probably be high enough to deal with this (unless you want some attacks to be able to get though it eventually).

[Kirby]

The problem with this analogy is that when you "attack" with Telepathy, you have to roll vs a table and overcome EGO to achieve an effect. Not so with energy blast.
With an Energy Blast, if you hit, you have to overcome PD/ED.

[ThealaSildorian]

Given that goal, I would go with sufficient (possibly Hardened) MD+DR to make it near impossible to affect the character beyond the level of surface thoughts. I wouldn't try to get complex with it; just say the jumbled thoughts make it difficult to get even coherent surface thoughts, rather than trying to Limit it in some way. Wave it off as Special Effects. You could even have it affect other Mental Powers if you wanted to broaden the justification a little (the jumble of thoughts makes it difficult to interject a mental command; there already seem to be a confusion of mental images there, and the illusions just slip in among the rest without having much affect on the character's true perceptions; etc. to taste). <snip>.

Well, I've decided that MD and DR don't work because they keep a mentalist out, wheras the effect I'm trying to acheive addresses what happens when a mentalist gets in.

So here's what I've decided to go with:

10 pts <b>Mind Blank (1):</b> Invisibility to Mental Sense Group, no fringe, 0 END Persistent (+1), works vs. Telepathy only (-1), still able to be targeted by other Mental Powers, including telepathic commands (+0), does not affect DECV for purposes of being targeted by a Mental Power (-1).

5 pts <b>Mind Blank (2):</b> Shapeshift (Mental Group), shapes surface thoughts to trivial and uninteresting thoughts, Triggered by Telepathy (+1), triggers automatically, trigger resets automatically, 0 END (+1/2), Does not affect other Mental Powers (-1), Linked with <b>Mind Blank (1)</b> (-1/2).

The Invisibilty hides his real thoughts, while the triggered Shapeshift simulates the SFX of "trivial and uninteresting thoughts" from the canon description of the 1e AD&D character I'm converting (Erac's Cousin from <i>Rogue's Gallery</i>, in case anyone's interested). A Telepath can still get to his deep thoughts or subconscious thoughts if he scores well enough on the Telepathy table, but the thoughts are invisible and would be "blank." However, a clever player might notice the fact he can't get past surface thoughts and come to the conclusion that something else is going on, which would allow him a Perception Roll to see past the Invisibility--if the player made a successful Perception Roll to see past the Invisibilty then he would be able to read the character's real thoughts based on how well he scored on the Telepathy Table.

I think that covers the SFX I'm trying to simulate, with the understanding that I can't exactly duplicate the original AD&D effect. But I think I come pretty close.

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

With an Energy Blast, if you hit, you have to overcome PD/ED.

Which was precisely my point :D

Theala

[C--]

Well, I've decided that MD and DR don't work because they keep a mentalist out, wheras the effect I'm trying to acheive addresses what happens when a mentalist gets in.


See, the thing is, there isn't really a game distinction between "keeping mentalist out" and "fooling him once he gets in". The game doesn't really go to that level of granularity. Of course, I'm the one who said you should just hand-wave the whole darn thing, so if this works for you, that's absolutely fine. I just know that if I was the GM, and I saw the writeup you're going to use, I'd be fairly confused as to what it was supposed to do. But if it works for you, more power to you.

[ThealaSildorian]

See, the thing is, there isn't really a game distinction between "keeping mentalist out" and "fooling him once he gets in". The game doesn't really go to that level of granularity. Of course, I'm the one who said you should just hand-wave the whole darn thing, so if this works for you, that's absolutely fine. I just know that if I was the GM, and I saw the writeup you're going to use, I'd be fairly confused as to what it was supposed to do. But if it works for you, more power to you.

<sigh> I explained several times before--I intend to share this conversion with others, specifically convention use, as well as posting it on my own web page. That's why I want to get a mechanic that works as opposed to GM's fiat.

Of <i>course</i> there's a game distinction between keeping a mentalist out and fooling him once he gets in. If you keep him out, he's out. Like a bank vault. If a safecracker succeeds in getting in the vault, sure he's in--but he has to know where to look among all the safety deposit boxes to find the one with the ultra-rare coin collection he has come to steal. That's why a Telepath has to roll on the Telepathy Table: by overcoming the vault's Ego, he's able to find the box he's looking for. That leads to what the Invisibility and Shapeshift represent--making it difficult for the mental safecracker to find the safety deposit box with the deep thoughts and subconscious memories.

That's why Mental Defense and Damage Reduction don't work for the SFX I have in mind. Mental Defense and Damage Reduction represent the bank vault itself, not its contents. The Invisibilty and Shapeshift represent the contents--although I possibly could have used other Powers such as Mental Illusions instead of Shapeshift--but the description of Shapeshift and its application to Mental Group in BOB is so on target it seemed like an excellent choice.

Theala

[C--]

<sigh> I explained several times before--I intend to share this conversion with others, specifically convention use, as well as posting it on my own web page. That's why I want to get a mechanic that works as opposed to GM's fiat.

I know. And I'm glad it works for you, but I think that you're stretching the definitions of what Invisibility and Shape Shift do per the game rules. I, as a GM, would say "Hmm... I think I know what she's trying to do here, but the powers don't work that way."


Of <i>course</i> there's a game distinction between keeping a mentalist out and fooling him once he gets in.

Not... really.


If you keep him out, he's out. Like a bank vault. If a safecracker succeeds in getting in the vault, sure he's in--but he has to know where to look among all the safety deposit boxes to find the one with the ultra-rare coin collection he has come to steal. That's why a Telepath has to roll on the Telepathy Table: by overcoming the vault's Ego, he's able to find the box he's looking for. That leads to what the Invisibility and Shapeshift represent--making it difficult for the mental safecracker to find the safety deposit box with the deep thoughts and subconscious memories.

If he makes his Telepathy roll past your Ego and Mental Defense, Telepathy works. That's it. There's nothing else. That's it. I understand what you're saying with "That leads to what the Invisibility and Shapeshift represent". But that's the problem. While the concept of "mental invisibility" or a "mental shapeshift" sounds like it works description-wise, it's not what happens powers-wise.

I've just now read through the power descriptions for both Invisibility and Shape Shift (I got my book back--woo-hoo!). Neither makes any indication that it stops Telepathy. Nothing in the description of Telepathy makes any mention that it is stopped by Invisibility or Shape Shift.


That's why Mental Defense and Damage Reduction don't work for the SFX I have in mind. Mental Defense and Damage Reduction represent the bank vault itself, not its contents. The Invisibilty and Shapeshift represent the contents--although I possibly could have used other Powers such as Mental Illusions instead of Shapeshift--but the description of Shapeshift and its application to Mental Group in BOB is so on target it seemed like an excellent choice.

Theala

Mental Defense and Damage Reduction represent whatever you want them to represent. You can define the sfx however you want.

Okay. Deep breath. Clear your mind and meditate with me. Forget the names of all the powers. We'll call them Power #1, Power #2, Power #3, and Power #4. If we get caught up in the names, we get confused (I once thought that Clinging was the power that my girlfriend at the time had. Then I read the power description and found out that it was something else). We can define the sfx of any of these 4 powers however we want. We can call an RKA "Lightning Bolt" or "Fireball" or even "I once took of my skate and tried to stab somebody". We can do the same with Powers #1, 2, 3, and 4. So how do we know which power is appropriate? We forget the names of these powers, and we look at the game effects. What does Power #1 actually do, according to the description? Well, it does X. Is X the exact effect we're looking for? No? Then we keep looking.

Invisibility makes it difficult to be detected with senses. Once you're detected, however, or if someone makes a nontargeting perception roll, then they're only at a -1 to hit you. That's all it does. If you're invisible to sight, and I shoot you with my 10D6 RKA "Laservision", you don't get a single point of defense, even though your Invisibility "bends light". Invisibility makes it hard to target you. It does nothing else.

Shapeshift, like Images, makes you appear to be something else. However, if you have Shapeshifted to appear to be a rock, and I shoot you with my 10D6 RKA "Laservision", I will see a rock that bleeds all over the street. Shapeshift makes you appear to be something else on the surface. It does nothing else.

Mental Defense provides you with defenses against mental attacks. To quote the book "A character with Mental Defense is resistant to mental attacks--he can withstand some of the effects of Mental Powers. Some examples of Mental Defense include psionic shields or extremely strong willpower." There is nothing about keeping someone "out". Mental Defense helps you to resist mental powers. It does nothing else.

Damage Reduction reduces the amount of effect that gets through a character's defenses. It does nothing else.

So, you want a character who is able to resist Telepathy. Don't make the mistake of going into over-think. Don't over-analyze or you'll drive yourself crazy. You want to resist mental attacks? Take the power that is designed specifically for that purpose--Mental Defense.

40 points Mental Defense "Mind Blank spell"
only vs telepathy (provides generic 'surface' thoughts) (-1)

Easy.

[Warp9]

I know. And I'm glad it works for you, but I think that you're stretching the definitions of what Invisibility and Shape Shift do per the game rules. I, as a GM, would say "Hmm... I think I know what she's trying to do here, but the powers don't work that way."

*snip*

Some very good points!

The only thing I might add is that you could even make the Mental Defense more specific--only works to stop mind reading (that way the Telepath could still send thoughts) .

[SteveZilla]

Some very good points!

The only thing I might add is that you could even make the Mental Defense more specific--only works to stop mind reading (that way the Telepath could still send thoughts) .

I'd call that a -0 Limitation at best. Telepathy can't send into the Deep, Hidden Thoughts/Memory/Subconscious levels. And sending "Surface Thoughts" doesn't do anything to the target.

[prestidigitator]

I agree that the MD+DR could work with the SFX. The attacker, "gets in," but isn't effective once there because of the defenses. What does it matter? The end result is the same: the Telepathy doesn't work (or doesn't work as well as it should perhaps).

However, while I think that is the simplest, most straightforward solution, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach either. The only thing that could get in the way is that this approach obviously is subject to a lot of interpretation, so you would have to really make sure the GM understands and approves of it (unless, of course, you are the GM).

[sbarron]

40 points Mental Defense "Mind Blank spell"
only vs telepathy (provides generic 'surface' thoughts) (-1)

Easy.I totally agree with this build and the explanation of why it is best way. The sfx of why the "mind blank" thwarts telepaths is not important. The fact that it does is what matters.

Theala, try thinking of it this way. A telepath that achieves EGO+ on his telepathy roll can be considered to be "getting in." The 40 points of effect above that is the range where the telepath is being decieved by the "mind blank," which is represented by the mental defense. Any effect above that results in the telepath actually overcoming the mind blank and reading real thoughts.

[Warp9]

I agree that the MD+DR could work with the SFX. The attacker, "gets in," but isn't effective once there because of the defenses. What does it matter? The end result is the same: the Telepathy doesn't work (or doesn't work as well as it should perhaps).

However, while I think that is the simplest, most straightforward solution, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach either. The only thing that could get in the way is that this approach obviously is subject to a lot of interpretation, so you would have to really make sure the GM understands and approves of it (unless, of course, you are the GM).
My problems with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach are that it creates a "double jeopardy" problem for Telepathy. Telepathy much now follow all the limitations of a sense (affected by Invisibility, Shape Shift, etc. . . ), and all the limitations of an attack (must make an attack roll and overcome defenses).

First of all, this situation is unfair to the Telepath. But that is not the end of the problem. This situation also creates a problem for defenders.

Lets say two Players named Stan and Dan each want to create a character who is very resistant to mind reading.

Stan defends against it as if it were a sense (Invisibility to Mental Powers, no fringe, 0 end, Persistant, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading).

Dan defends against it as though it were a mental attack (buys a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, double hardened, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading)

Stan's character is now totally immune to any amount of mind reading (after all his thoughts are now totally invisible to any Telepath, no matter how powerful).

Dan may have invested far more points in his defense, but his character is not immune to mind reading.

Maybe some people like the idea that a clever rules rapist can get far more effect by spending less points--but I do not agree.

For my money, powers like Shape Shift and Invisibility should never compensate for buying other powers. IMO Neither of these things should ever take the place of buying real defense, and if they do, then there is something wrong.

Assuming that Telepathy is going to be considered a mental attack, the only fair answer is to force Stan to also buy a real defense (like Mental Defense or Mental Damage Reduction) for his character.

[prestidigitator]

My problems with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach are that it creates a "double jeopardy" problem for Telepathy. Telepathy much now follow all the limitations of a sense (affected by Invisibility, Shape Shift, etc. . . ), and all the limitations of an attack (must make an attack roll and overcome defenses).

First of all, this situation is unfair to the Telepath. But that is not the end of the problem. This situation also creates a problem for defenders.

Lets say two Players named Stan and Dan each want to create a character who is very resistant to mind reading.

Stan defends against it as if it were a sense (Invisibility to Mental Powers, no fringe, 0 end, Persistant, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading).

Dan defends against it as though it were a mental attack (buys a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, double hardened, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading)

Stan's character is now totally immune to any amount of mind reading (after all his thoughts are now totally invisible to any Telepath, no matter how powerful).

Dan may have invested far more points in his defense, but his character is not immune to mind reading.

Maybe some people like the idea that a clever rules rapist can get far more effect by spending less points--but I do not agree.

For my money, powers like Shape Shift and Invisibility should never compensate for buying other powers. IMO Neither of these things should ever take the place of buying real defense, and if they do, then there is something wrong.

Assuming that Telepathy is going to be considered a mental attack, the only fair answer is to force Stan to also buy a real defense (like Mental Defense or Mental Damage Reduction) for his character.
Oh, I agree completely. However, it is synonymous to whether you buy large amounts of PD or Invisibility to Sight; or something completely different that might cost fewer points than an adequate defense, such as Images or Desolidification. I would require that there be similar means to get around a mental Invisibility as a normal one: allow an attack at reduced ECV; allow other senses to compensate somehow. Something like that.

If you really want the attacker to be unable to have effect at all even once the attack succeeds, I call that a form of Desolidification, not Invisibility. So allow a Mental Desolidification that doesn't protect against physical attacks, just like normal Desolidification doesn't protect against mental attacks. Any Mental Powers the character possessed would have to have Affects Physical World. There should also probably be some way to get around it, just as with normal Desolidification.

[The Monster]

The other thing I was thinking of, was Shape Shift (Mental Group), to make your thoughts seem uninteresting. Should be pretty cheap actually.

This is pretty much where my thoughts went looking over this thread - the Mind Blank spell would be a Transform (Major?), into a different class of mind, call it Magically-Altered or something. Effective permanence is simply a matter of adjusting the fade rate (plus, it gives you the option of making the spell end if a princess kisses him (that probably would scramble some of *my* metnal defenses) or whatever, for a story hook). It's still an expensive spell (at least in Active cost - pile on limitations to make it a cheaper ritual), and specialized enough that PCs probably won't spend a lot of points on it. If you make it a Transform vs EGO instead of vs BODY (an obvious rules twiddle, and neatly point-equivalent), then it actually becomes harder for mages and mentalists to benefit from this than brutes, which has a certain poetic justice IMO.
This also opens a way for mentalists to overcome the defense if they're insightful and dedicated enough ("wise in the ways of the Force...") to justify buying a power or modifier to let them affect the "Magically-Altered" class of mind. Doing that should require specific GM approval, plus a skill roll and/or extra END cost.

Of course, there's the question for the rules wonks: if someone does Mind Scan/Telepathy/etc., but doesn't know their target is a different mind class, do they discover that, or do they just end up mentally staring at something that just ain't there? I get the idea that it might be kind of like looking through IR goggles for something the is exactly the same termperature as the stuff around it - it just wouldn't register at all (which could be a bit wiggy if you're looking at him with your natural eyeballs).