War Hero?

[Trencher]

Is it not time for Herogames to make a rules supplement that covers wars?
I know that we got some war rules in fantasy hero but they are a little off. Besides I would quick fight rules to simulate armies from and between all genres. For example and huge army of zombies supported by a mech or two fighting an army of WW1 soldiers with artillery support. Or an army of superheroes fighting an alien invasion.

[AlHazred]

Really, they covered a lot of that in Dark Champions.

[Trencher]

War on a army vs army scale?

[AlHazred]

I said "a lot" not "all".

Though, for army vs. army scale, you could use the Mass Combat rules in Fantasy Hero easily enough. Might make for a decent Digital Hero article.

[Trencher]

I think that the material in fantasy hero was insufficient and I gladly buy a hero book about war. One article is not enough!

[Steve Long]

While we don't specifically have any plans for a book about tactical- or strategic-scale modern-day warfare, I would at some point like to do a "Military Hero" book for the Dark Champions line that might conceivably include some "mass combat" rules. The difficulties are many, however. For the book overall, the amount of research and work involved preclude it from being anything but a GenCon release or similar project where I can take a couple of months to write and design it. For the "mass combat" specifically, modern-day warfare has so many more variables than Fantasy-era battles that it's a tricky project to tackle.

But maybe we'll get lucky, win Jim Dunnigan's soul in a poker game, and be able to get him to write it for us. ;)

[Lamrok]

But maybe we'll get lucky, win Jim Dunnigan's soul in a poker game, and be able to get him to write it for us. ;)

Now you're talking. I cut my teeth in gaming on his wargames.

[Trencher]

The difficulties are many, however. For the book overall, the amount of research and work involved preclude it from being anything but a GenCon release or similar project where I can take a couple of months to write and design it. For the "mass combat" specifically, modern-day warfare has so many more variables than Fantasy-era battles that it's a tricky project to tackle.
Yes and it something that is lacking from the rpg world. If you could combine herogames flexibility with a usable wargame, you would have the best rpg wargame out there. :rock: I know I would buy it.
Just a suggestion, I know that it is difficult to do otherwise I would just write up some willy-nilly rules my self.




But maybe we'll get lucky, win Jim Dunnigan's soul in a poker game, and be able to get him to write it for us. ;)
I have never heard of him, what did he make?

[Steve Long]

Dunnigan's done more than I can quickly and easily talk about. A simple websearch will probably pull up a lot of info on him.

[Egyptoid]

anyone want to by my old copy of HERE THERE BE TIGERS ?

[Badger]

I'll second this idea. I've always wanted to play some type of wargame with the rules of rpg. Though it does seem like this might be good for some type of HERO computer sim. Just a thought. I can think of several war history and/or chess buffs who might possible jump at playing a re-creation of a past battle.

[Trencher]

I think that this (http://jimdunnigan.com/wargames.htm#top) is his web site looks like he has not being doing anything since 1990 so I hope that you ask him? He has done fantasy before.

[LordGhee]

Mr Dunnigan main web page now is the StrageyPage one of the best sources on the Mil on the net;.

Lord Ghee

[Captain Obvious]

I worked on this sort of thing for a while myself, but I kind of ran out of steam. I still have a hard copy of my notes for using (4th Ed) powers, advantages, and limitations with the FH mass combat system, and scads and scads of vehicle and weapon stats in various stages of conversion to Hero terms.

Maybe I ought to type them up again and polish them up a little.

[BobGreenwade]

A good War Hero book would, of course, focus primarily on role-playing during wartime (mostly during the World Wars, and conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, and the Middle East), though plenty of material on mass action would definitely be in place.

(Just my tuppence worth. :D)

[Trencher]

A good War Hero book would, of course, focus primarily on role-playing during wartimethough plenty of material on mass action would definitely be in place.
I would like a book with rules for war for all genres and be able to mix and match them, nobody else have done it before so I think that would be a cool thing to have.
Roleplaying during different wars and genres has been covered before. And it is also much easier to do youself.

[Trencher]

I got a name!
Ultimate War! :bounce:
The title alone say best-seller!

[Nadrakas]

I just moved to Tucson...an area that seems to have it's fair share of Wargamers (One store, despite having a decent sized RPG section, primarily caters to the Wargaming crowd). Seems to me that a good Wargame that allows for the building of individual units/heros - all to the player's individual specification - would be very attractive to many Wargamers. One of the biggest problems I have with most Wargames is that almost all of the units are "pre-made" by the company (yes...you can "customize" these units in many Wargames...but it's still pretty much a pre-made unit). Of course they do have to sell miniatures, but I don't mind "cardboard" or "flat-character-chips" to represent a character/unit.

Personally an "Ultimate War" or "War Hero" that allows for a a readily playable Wargame, that allows for the building of units from scratch, and could possibly lead people to RPGs (ie: Hero) could put a little more life-blood, not to mention money, into the industry.

Of course...this is all my opinion....and you know what they say about opinions right? :p


Nadrakas...

[Trencher]

I agree with Nadrakas! If you at Herogames have the time, I really hope that you could "test" the market for the idea.

[teh bunneh]

I'd love to see a Hero system wargame. Maybe then I could pull out my huge Skaven army again, and play them with rules that are internally consistant! :)

Bill.

[BlackSword]

I got a name!
Ultimate War! :bounce:
The title alone say best-seller!
I like it and think that an Ultimate title could work for a war-based book. After all, there are wars in every genre. :)

There are also quite a few ways to play a war. This is the method one of my groups usually uses. We very much generalize the entire battle and focus on the heroes. A general on each side of the battle make tactics rolls to determine the outcome of each 'round.' When the general wins three 'rounds' their side wins. It started by being based loosely on L5R mass combat and has since evolved.

Every PC has some sort of tactics roll (or some generic roll to make).
There are three levels of engagement, Reserves, Engaged, Heavily Engaged.
In each level there are things that can happen, in the reserved the least happens, while in heavily engaged the most happens.

The PC tactics roll has two effects, the first is how much damage they might take. The second, some rolls have a particular effect, such as a duel with an opposing hero, or a chance to wipe out a unit. If the PC wins he gains (a) honor/renown, and (b) a bonus for his commander's roll.

If people are interested I will see if one of my friends has the rules written in an electronic format.

[Steve Long]

IIRC there was a generic wargame out a few years ago called The Way Of War that was supposedly highly customizable. I don't know anything about it, not being a wargamer or having ever read it, but it was heavily advertised in KODT. Not sure if that's the sort of "build your own" and free-form customization you're looking for, though.

[AlHazred]

If people are interested I will see if one of my friends has the rules written in an electronic format.

I'd be interested in seeing it. I have a large-scale battle coming up that will be the culmination of lots of PC and NPC machinations in my campaign; it'll probably also end it, and with a bang. I'd like to consider how best to run it so that the ongoing battles don't bog down PC actions.

Does your system integrate with Steve's suggestions in Fantasy Hero?

[Nadrakas]

IIRC there was a generic wargame out a few years ago called The Way Of War that was supposedly highly customizable. I don't know anything about it, not being a wargamer or having ever read it, but it was heavily advertised in KODT. Not sure if that's the sort of "build your own" and free-form customization you're looking for, though.


Steve,

Customizable is good...but having consistent rules from which I can build a character/unit/army/etc. I understand that Hero is an RPG, and I love it that way...but if I also had a game that could be used as a wargame I would have a better chance to recruit more players (ie: Wargamers).

I liked the rules in Fantasy Hero, but they were somewhat simplified and, though that has it's benefits, a more in-depth approach has a better chance of attracting Wargamers -- look at some of the rule books for Wargames...their not exactly light on the rules. Now I'm not asking for more rules, but approaching the subject of War and Wargaming from the thoroughness that is Hero's trademark would be a definite plus.

Anyway...I personally hope this happens and would be willing to put my two-bits into a project of this Epic Proportions.

Thanks...


Nadrakas...

[Lethosos]

Y'know... thinking about it--wouldn't it just be simpler to think of one army (or several platoons individually) as a "character" overall? You'd have to do some scaling to deal with PC/army conflicts so that there isn't much in the way of disrepancy, but it may work out better than you might expect.

[Nadrakas]

Y'know... thinking about it--wouldn't it just be simpler to think of one army (or several platoons individually) as a "character" overall? You'd have to do some scaling to deal with PC/army conflicts so that there isn't much in the way of disrepancy, but it may work out better than you might expect.


To a large extent this is how FH handles things...Each "character" represents a group (2 to 16,000 or more). I don't have a problem with this...it's a strength in my mind. You can scale the "army" size to the needs of the players/game -- you can lump them all into one (if they are similar -- ie: ground, cavalry, etc) or you can break them down into small groups to represent "squads" or "platoons". Compared to most other Wargames, which have individual miniatures representing individuals within a unit (This leads to large units and costs for the player), this approach toward 1-Miniature/Cardboard Figure equals multiple Miniatures/Cardboard Figures is a very big strength IMO.

Note: The larger the size of the units the longer each turn is (ie: 1-3 = 12 segments, 4-15 = 48 segments, 16-63 = 90 segments etc). Similarly Ranges & Hex Sizes are also increased based off of the size of the units.

The basics of what was in FH can easily be built on. Most of the rules for combat, HTH & Ranged, can be applied to equally any Genre (Fantasy, Modern, Sci-Fi, etc). A little more detail and this set of rules could be marketed as a very flexible and comprehensive wargame.


Nadrakas...

[Captain Obvious]

The biggest hurdle is deciding how the various powers etc are affected by the change in scale, if at all. Once you get past that, everything else is pretty easy, overall.

Although, I would like to see a wargame with a true strategic side to it...logistics and all that, I mean.

[archermoo]

Although, I would like to see a wargame with a true strategic side to it...logistics and all that, I mean.

Because after all, amatures study tactics. Professionals study logistics...

:D

[Captain Obvious]

Because after all, amatures study tactics. Professionals study logistics...

:D

:winkgrin:

EDIT: Well, to tell the truth (and some GMs may disown me from their ranks when I say this), many times I don't care all that much about where a story is heading. Generally speaking, I'd rather a war develop naturally, and be affected by what territory is controlled and how starved the armies are, than to have the players fight a bunch of battles and then tell them who won the war based off of some arbitrary measure, or worse yet, some predetermined decision.

[Nadrakas]

:winkgrin:

EDIT: Well, to tell the truth (and some GMs may disown me from their ranks when I say this), many times I don't care all that much about where a story is heading. Generally speaking, I'd rather a war develop naturally, and be affected by what territory is controlled and how starved the armies are, than to have the players fight a bunch of battles and then tell them who won the war based off of some arbitrary measure, or worse yet, some predetermined decision.

I'm with you on this my good Captain. Pre-Determined outcomes & small battles that determine the outcome of a major battle/war are not what I want. They have their place (ie: you have players who don't like large-scale battles), but if you do the wargame right (ie: Units = Characters, as in FH) then it's not much of a transisition.

As far as Logistics & Strategy...well if Hero Games does do this I would expect they would do a decent job of covering this facet and putting it into effect.


Nadrakas...my opinion...

[AmadanNaBriona]

HERO has such a strong wargame background already that the addition of a good set of rules for conducting wars and other mass engagements would simply cause it to conquer the known universe, IMO.

I could be wrong, but it would certainly rock!

[Fitz]

I'd love to see a HERO-based rpg-focused set of what would effectively be wargames rules, but I personally would quail at the prospect of designing a ruleset that would be capable of:

representing conflicts from competing tribes of homo erectus to galaxy-spanning ultra-tech warfare
generating "realistic" military outcomes for the whole range of eras
allowing for meaningful input from player characters
and being comprehensible by mere mortals with an IQ lower than Steven Hawkings

I also think it's kind of ironic that we're talking about this; it's roleplaying going full circle back to the old days of Chainmail in the late 60s :)

[Captain Obvious]

I'd love to see a HERO-based rpg-focused set of what would effectively be wargames rules, but I personally would quail at the prospect of designing a ruleset that would be capable of:

representing conflicts from competing tribes of homo erectus to galaxy-spanning ultra-tech warfare
generating "realistic" military outcomes for the whole range of eras
allowing for meaningful input from player characters
and being comprehensible by mere mortals with an IQ lower than Steven Hawkings


The skeleton of it already exists in FH. It's a flexible enough system to cover all this, with a few tweaks, and probably easier to understand than the standard Hero rules.

[Trencher]

The skeleton of it already exists in FH. It's a flexible enough system to cover all this, with a few tweaks, and probably easier to understand than the standard Hero rules.
To much work! I rather buy a book with all the rules in them. :yes:

[BlackSword]

I'd be interested in seeing it. I have a large-scale battle coming up that will be the culmination of lots of PC and NPC machinations in my campaign; it'll probably also end it, and with a bang. I'd like to consider how best to run it so that the ongoing battles don't bog down PC actions.

Does your system integrate with Steve's suggestions in Fantasy Hero?
Didn't have the electronic copy, but here is what I put together from what my friend sent me. His comments are in black, my additional commentary is in blue. Its a bit long, if you have any questions let me know.

The actual battle was done in a macro scale. The General rolls a tactics roll against the opposing general, who ever wins the roll wins that round of battle. If a side wins three rounds in a row then that side wins the battle.

It was aimed at a fantasy setting, so some things such as magic might need to be changed for other regions.

Meanwhile, in the trenches the heroes are out running around doing heroic things. Typically we did not attach the heroes to units, but sometimes a pair of heroes would run around together. If two heroes hang out together, only one rolls tactics, and they can choose who goes into the duel. Its up the GM who gets Glory in different situations. Also the pair would only give a single bonus to the general.

There are four levels of engagement, Reserves, Disengaged, Engaged, Heavily Engaged. A PC can usually only change one level of engagement per turn (ie from disengaged a PC can go to reserves, engaged or stay in place).

the chart had 7 rows- each a range of results from the pc's tactics
roll.

it also had 6 columns- reserves, disengaged, engaged, heavily engaged.
those are for if you're winning. if you're tied, they're slid over
one column. if you're losing, they're slid over another column, like
this:

win__r d e h
tie____r d e h
lose_____r d e h
+3__0 0 0 0 0 0 (fail)
+2__0 0 0 0 0 0
+1__0 0 0 0 0 0
0___0 0 0 0 0 0
-1__0 0 0 0 0 0
-2__0 0 0 0 0 0
-3__0 0 0 0 0 0 (success)


the further to the upper right corner you got, the worse the damage
taken. fighting style, soak, defensive ability, etc should be taken
into account.

(note, this is just me putting in some numbers to show a pattern, it could be replaced with DCs. I would go with EB damage, representing that someone is getting knocked around in battle, if it is enough knocking around then they might actually be suffering BODY, would have to be properly scaled for the Defense of the game)

win___r___d___e__h
tie_______r___d___e___h
lose__________r___d___e___h
+3__3d6_5d6_6d6_7d6_8d6_9d6 (fail)
+2__3d6_3d6_4d6_6d6_7d6_8d6
+1__2d6_3d6_4d6_5d6_6d6_7d6
0___2d6_2d6_3d6_4d6_5d6_6d6
-1__1d6_2d6_2d6_3d6_4d6_5d6
-2__1d6_1d6_2d6_3d6_4d6_4d6
-3__0___1d6_1d6_2d6_3d6_3d6 (success)


Further some squares will have special opporutinities. Again, just throwing in some options, could be patterned in any order to fit the campaign. This might be to populated. It has to be a balance so that people aren't stacking up glory like mad, but also enough encounters to keep the game interesting.

win r d e h
tie r d e h
lose r d e h
+3 3 7 3 8 4 1 (fail)
+2 0 0 0 0 0 9
+1 0 6 2 7 3 8
0 2 0 1 6 0 0
-1 0 5 9 0 2 7
-2 0 0 0 5 1 6
-3 1 4 8 4 9 5 (success)
special results are scattered in a specific pattern. the
opportunities that result can force a level of engagement, penalize
the tactics roll, or give a small combat. each should aid the
general's tactics roll, which determine winning or losing.

Each opportunity provides two things; both are dependant on the hero standing at the end of the round.
a) a bonus to the generals tactics roll if successful
b) renown, making the staute of the PC bigger when he is declared a war hero

some examples:
1) Hold the Line - The enemy is trying to break through, PC steps into the attack to inspire courage in surrounding units and help break the attack. Immediately move to heavily engaged and stay for two turns. +1 tactics each turn hero is holding, +1 Glory each turn hero is holding
2) Magical aid - a magician (or cleric) provides aid, roll 1d6 and choose from a selection of spells.
3) Into the breech, a unit has created a hole in the enemy line, hero charges in to take advantage. Move to heavily engaged, stay there for one round, +1 tactics if hero survives, +1 glory if hero survives next round.
4) Attack the (special unit). (archers, magicians, etc). PC sees an opening and goes into slaughter, er defeat a special unit. Have to defeat 4 opponents in a few rounds. +1 tactics, +1 glory.
5) Shot at the general. PC has a chance to hit the opposing general.
6) Guard the general. The general's retinue rides by and asks the PC to join as a body guard. The PC can stay with the general as long as he wishes. The PC must follow the general in different levels of engagement (usually high). +1 Glory per round the PC follows the general.
7) Carry Standard - The PC picks up a fallen standard. +1 Glory per round the PC carries the standard
8) Steal Enemy Standard - PC steals an enemy standard (Must defeat standard bearer). Must carry it from current engagement back to friendly reserves. +1 Glory per round
9) Duel with enemy hero. Winning hero gets +2 Glory, +1 tactics.

Some stack, for instance a character could carry a banner and guard the general. Or guard the general and duel. (in the game I participated in that used this system the GM did a great explanation for this. I was guarding the general and a hero came up to duel the general, I stepped up and accepted as his champion. Unfortunataly I got whooped, but it was a cool description). Others don't, frex guard the general, you would have to break away from the general to hold the line.

Some common sense will have to be used. If the PC is holding the line then he can't take advantage of another opporunity like, into the Breech, but can duel another hero (who may be leading the charge into the hero's unit).

to complicate things, you can keep track of glory given by special
opportunities, which should allow more oppotunities or increase the
bonus to the general's tactics roll.

I gave one example of a 'special encounter' chart. I believe my GM used 3, one for Glory of 0 - 7, one for Glory of 8 - 15, and one for glory of 16+. As the person becomes more famous, people tend to seek him out. So for high glories I would increase the number of duels one might encounter.

it's more bookkeeping (i wrote a program for it), but it balances
things out and adds a lot of fun to have antagonist heroes, that can
achieve special results and gain glory. it's much more fun to duel
with a hero when you've been hearing stories of his exploits for the
whole battle. i'll try to find a list of generic opportunities, but
i'm sure you remember them: healing, magical aid, magical attack, shot
on the general, attack the archers, hold the line, outflank, into the
breech, pick up the standard, grab the enemy standard, officer duel,

For example: Bob, Rick and George are headed into war. The generals stare each other down, let the bones roll. The heroes' general wins so they get an advantage.

Bob the Bloody is a Paladin and proud of his combat prowess leads the initial attack and starts in heavily engaged. Rolls a 11, 1 below his Tactics roll of 12 and takes 3d6 normal damage (Heavily Engaged, Winning). No Special Opprotunity for Bob.

Rick the Kind, a Barbarian wears less armor and decides to see where the battle goes, so starts in Engaged. Rolls 14, 3 above his tactics of 11, and gets 5d6 Normal Damage, and a special opporunity, "Into the Breech." Next round he charges into Heavily Engaged to help a unit break through the enemy line. Next round he will start gaining an advantage for his General.

George is a ranger and doesn't want to see all the bloodshed so settles into the disengaged area and lobs arrows into the fray. He rolls a 12, right on his tactics roll. Takes 2d6 normal damage and has no opportunity.

Next Round, None of the heroes provided bonuses, but a villain won a duel with a lieutenant, providing his general a bonus. The villainous general wins the tactics roll, so everyone uses the 'tie' row for resolving the combat. At the end of this round Rick will provide a bonus for his general and a point of Glory for being in the breech.

[zornwil]

Now you're talking. I cut my teeth in gaming on his wargames.
Me, too, great guy, and he indeed literally "wrote the book".

[blackpaladin]

Steve Long -

Do you think that this sort of effort is practical within the framework of Hero 5th Edition? I'd love to see a War Hero or Ultimate War (that really does sound good :) book, but I'm not arguing for one. I very much enjoy the Warhammer 40K universe and dislike the rules just as much. For me, I think Hero could be the solution that would provide the high adaptability needed to do Games Workshop's wargame the way it 'should' be done and have the role-play aspect with, on top of, or otherwise excluded (see comments below). Anyway, I wanted to hear your opinion on the matter; is it really practical? Can you offer any suggestions as to how you might proceed?


I just moved to Tucson...an area that seems to have it's fair share of Wargamers (One store, despite having a decent sized RPG section, primarily caters to the Wargaming crowd). Seems to me that a good Wargame that allows for the building of individual units/heros - all to the player's individual specification - would be very attractive to many Wargamers. One of the biggest problems I have with most Wargames is that almost all of the units are "pre-made" by the company (yes...you can "customize" these units in many Wargames...but it's still pretty much a pre-made unit). Of course they do have to sell miniatures, but I don't mind "cardboard" or "flat-character-chips" to represent a character/unit.

Personally an "Ultimate War" or "War Hero" that allows for a a readily playable Wargame, that allows for the building of units from scratch, and could possibly lead people to RPGs (ie: Hero) could put a little more life-blood, not to mention money, into the industry.

Of course...this is all my opinion....and you know what they say about opinions right? :p


Nadrakas...

I voted yes simply because I like the mass combat aspect to RPGs. I think it adds an intriguing aspect to Role-play. Like the fellow above me it is just an opinion that is defined by what one and ones player group enjoys.

I've like the idea so much that I had started searching for a gaming supplement that would give me a foundation on which to build a Hero Fantasy Mass Battles rules set. I happened upon the following rules supplement "Fields of Blood: The Book of War" from Eden Studios. Fantastic book! I'm using it as a structural guideline to create fantasy mass battles rules for Hero. They really did an excellent job of bringing detail to mass battles without miring it down so much that it is no longer fun.

A comment by an earlier forum participant mentioned how enjoyable Warhammer 40K could be if it had consistent rules. I agree that Hero System could give this to WH40K. I've liked WH40K for some time but I've always wanted more role-play in it. Now, I'm creating that combo with Hero.

If anybody has suggestions for a gaming supplement of modern mass warfare that would provide as good a foundation for Hero Modern Mass Battles as Fileds of Blood has for fantasy mass battles, them please let me know.

Long story short, I think and official Hero Mass Battles supplement woud be a great sideline supplement for the Hero System. One that would be eagerly bought if it were developed well!

Blackpaladin.

I'd love to see a Hero system wargame. Maybe then I could pull out my huge Skaven army again, and play them with rules that are internally consistant! :)

Bill.

[Barton]

Mr Dunnigan main web page now is the StrageyPage one of the best sources on the Mil on the net;.

Lord Ghee

http://www.strategypage.com/
Recommended to me at Origins last year by the War College lecturers. These men (Lt. Col. in Navy and Air Force) who see the Presidental Daily Briefing said this is THE best site unless you have top secret clearance.
GREAT site if you want to know more than the main stream media, or if you interested in research about modern military for Champions or Dark Champions.

[Steve Long]

Steve Long -

Do you think that this sort of effort is practical within the framework of Hero 5th Edition?

Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "practical." ;) If you mean, "could it be done with a reasonable amount of effort," I think the answer is probably "Yes." Adapting the HERO System to a full-bore wargame probably wouldn't be too difficult. If you mean, "could it be done by Hero Games and be sufficiently profitable to justify the work," my guess is "No."

[blackpaladin]

Barton - Thanks for the link. This site looks interesting...

[blackpaladin]

Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "practical." ;) If you mean, "could it be done with a reasonable amount of effort," I think the answer is probably "Yes."

Steve -

This is what I meant, yes. Warhammer 40K has 'super-heroic' elements, along side other genres' elements, in it that requires a broad scope gaming system that has internal consistency and balance. Naturally, I considered Hero as well as GURPS. I even considered Mutants & Masterminds (their community actually has some very intriguing write-ups for Space Marines etc.) What would be great is getting your opinion as to where I might run into 'snags'. In other words, where in the Hero rules do you see unique adaptation problems/obstacles. For instance, WH40K is a 'whole force' turn based game. I don't like this and I believe the Hero Speed mechanic would handle it just fine and that it would add a manageable level of realism. However, I might be missing something that your creator perspective would catch, here with this Speed mechanic and elsewhere.

[Steve Long]

In general, I'd suggest that you look at the Mass Combat rules in FH for what you might call my "general take" on Things Wargame-y using HERO. ;) It only deals with Fantasy-type units, of course, which leaves out a whole slew of equipment and tactical options available to modern day or Science Fiction games.

Assuming you wanted to use the HERO rules with as few changes as possible, in addition to SPD/Phases there's also the issue of what STUN constitutes in a wargame context. I suppose you could consider it some measure of unit cohesion (i.e., when a unit is Stunned, it's too scattered, scared, pinned down, whatever to function effectively until it can "regroup").

I'd better stop now or I'll start to get confused with my thinking on the Kingdom/Nation/Planet creation/play rules for The Ultimate Base. ;) Though in some senses the two subjects are related, since I'll probably have to at least discuss how you can dovetail the Mass Combat rules with them.

[BobGreenwade]

I'd better stop now or I'll start to get confused with my thinking on the Kingdom/Nation/Planet creation/play rules for The Ultimate Base. ;) Though in some senses the two subjects are related, since I'll probably have to at least discuss how you can dovetail the Mass Combat rules with them.I personally would prefer to see the Mass combat rules reprinted altogether, expanded from Fantasy-specific to all-genre -- whether in TUBa or elsewhere.

[gojira]

For some reason, thoughts on bases and miniatures make me want to use rules simlar to Warhammer 40k EPIC.

Rather than individual troops, EPIC used groups of WH40k units on sticks or represented by single counters. Plus HUGE war machines.

Hmm, Giant Robot HERO....

[Thia Halmades]

I'VE BEEN ASKING FOR GIANT ROBOT HERO this whole time.

Now I want Giant Robot Battle HERO. With mass combat rules, and unit operations, and a sleigh and a fire truck and a and a and a

*BOOM*

Dream book overload.

[shadowcat1313]

hmmm... Traveller does have mass combat rules for starships and vehicles... and with Traveller for Hero already on the way