How long to make Master Mold?

[Guyon]

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.
The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

[Lamrok]

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.
The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?


Let them roll for it. A really good roll should cut the time a lot. Suggest to them that they might be able to bring in outside experts to help with this task (making complementary rolls). Of course they'll have to do something for the expert to get him on board. Tell them that if the capture a robot from X, they might be able to reverse-engineer it and get a nice bonus on the roll. Make it a fun challenge.

[Vondy]

They bought the components at Walmart?!

The project they are talking about would take a major corporation several years, a full design team, and a significant R&D budget to accomplish.

So you have to ask yourself: just how realistic do you want to be?

From a playability perspective "a few months is ideal," from a realism perspective, with the right resources and skill sets, 3-5 years is realistic.

[Hawksmoor]

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.
The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

Really this is a general roleplaying question and not a Rules Discussion but so what I'm bored.

First, like a previous poster said: How Realistic Do You Want To Be?

A slightly above average INT character with some mechanical skill should not be able to create more than a souped up car let alone Skynet and a few dozen loyal robots. The PC simply lacks the skills required.

OTOH, a nonrealistic game would simply say that if the PCs can pony up the points they can have what ever they want.

Which game are you trying to run?

Hawksmoor

[McCoy]

A working Von Newman machine.

From off-the-shelf components.

Purchased at Wal-Mart.

They would finish faster building the base by themselves.

They would finish faster growing the trees to cut for lumber to build the base by themselves.

In the absence of a massive gadget pool, or a cyberpath, I would require them to capture and reverse-engineer a working robot.

[Guyon]

My biggest problem with this player strategy is bypassing the rules to get quick results. Letting a few rolls take the place of using character points to build the base seems far too easy. To me this seems to far fetched, even for comics to try to get this done in a mere 3 weeks (for 1 person).

I have actually given them a basic base and he is trying to get fast results by construction of robots doing all the work with junk yard material. I think the mere programming would take a huge amount of time.

I want a fun game, so my point here is to temper the vast contradiction between the players and my ruling of how long I think it would take in comic book time.

Thank you for any input.

[Hugh Neilson]

Letting a few rolls take the place of using character points to build the base seems far too easy.

That makes the answer simple. No points, no base.

I'd be inclined to let the player continue, with (say) a few days to construct the Master Mold. It then proceeds to build more robots and the base, exactly as planned.

The players then find their newly constructed base, fully staffed with robots, won't let them in. Not to worry, however, as the Robot Army is coming out. After all, you can't very well conquer (exterminate?) the human race staying inside this base all day!

Whether the player got (un)lucky, or this is an alien race using ready components, and an egotistical human, by mindbeaming robot construction instructions, I leave to you.

Comic book precedents: Ultron, Computo, HERBIE (hey, if Hank Pym, Reed Richards and Brainac 5 could screw this up, your "a bit above average" intellect practically guarantees it!) - lots more if you want to go looking.

[Ndreare]

This is good stuff.

The players with no relevent skills and an moderate int wants to buy things at Walmart and build things that master technitions would spend 20 years working on with billion dolor budgets.

My advice takes place in two steps.

1: Reach up and slap the player in question. (this part is a joke he may cry)

2: Make them BOTH pay the points and have a game appropriat reason for the powers.

[McCoy]

This is good stuff.

The players with no relevent skills and an moderate int wants to buy things at Walmart and build things that master technitions would spend 20 years working on with billion dolor budgets.
And fail. Have I missed something? Has there in RL ever been a human built Von Newman machine?

[Ternaugh]

And fail. Have I missed something? Has there in RL ever been a human built Von Newman machine?

No one has built one, though technically standard computers are as subclass that can be shown to be functionally equivalent to part of a Von Neumann machine. See, it's really hard to find the infinitely long tape to hold the symbols. Remember, too, that a Von Neumann machine can calculate just about anything, but isn't necessarily optimized to do these calculations in a specific interval of time. So, it could take a few milliseconds to draw up the plans, or a billion years. With proper optimization of the symbols on the tapes, it is theoretically possible to reduce this time to a fixed minimum, but the optimization itself may not be possible in a reasonable amount of time.

I like the idea of buying the parts at Wal-Mart, though. It would be fun to see them argue that the lead weights on the fishing line are actually the data marks on a VN tape, and that the reversible power drill makes the perfect transfer mechanism, while the photoelectric nightlight is a great reader of the information. Of course, it would get a bit fiddly, when they explain how the decoder mechanism can be built out of the YMCA Elmo, but that's the fun of roleplaying it out.

Your Players May Vary,
JoeG

[Dust Raven]

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.
The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

Myself, I'd have let it go in however many days they felt like working on it. The more time they spend, the better the results are. In the back of my mind I'd come up with some "appropriate" time when spending any longer just makes it take longer and no longer improves performance, but I usually don't sweat it.

I think you were fine saying it's take a year or more, and perfectly fair. As others have said, using state of the art technology, specifically crafted for this purpose, it would take an army of technicials and engineers a decade or more to invent, build, test and rebuild such a device. Give it to a handful of weekend mechanics with a basked full of discount-store surplus in as little as a year if more than generous.

Of course, in the realm of fiction, a kid builds a nuclear bomb in a few days, three children build a spaceship in an afternoon, the lowly peasant masters seven styles of forbidden martial arts in a weekend and many other examples of ordinary people doing extraordinary things in impossibly short times are found everywhere. A few weeks seems a little slow in comparison. Besides, there are people who pretty much do the same thing for robot-wars type games (though they aren't building robots that build other robots, just robots that do normal robot things).

[McCoy]

See, it's really hard to find the infinitely long tape to hold the symbols. Remember, too, that a Von Neumann machine can calculate just about anything, but isn't necessarily optimized to do these calculations in a specific interval of time. So, it could take a few milliseconds to draw up the plans, or a billion years. With proper optimization of the symbols on the tapes, it is theoretically possible to reduce this time to a fixed minimum, but the optimization itself may not be possible in a reasonable amount of time.
Isn't that a Turing machine?

By Von Newman machine I ment a machine that can build a copy of itself from raw materials. Is that the term?

[Lamrok]

My biggest problem with this player strategy is bypassing the rules to get quick results. Letting a few rolls take the place of using character points to build the base seems far too easy. To me this seems to far fetched, even for comics to try to get this done in a mere 3 weeks (for 1 person).

My assumption was that points had been paid, and you were working out the details of how the base came into being. (Stuff like that happens in out games all the time. In Zornwil's game, building the base took a lot of planning and a good bit of game time.)

If points haven't been pai for the base, then you're looking at paying points for the building method - Probably some sort of transform (transform with some manner of gradual effect, from your description) to make the shell, then paying full points for the stuff inside.

[Lamrok]

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.
The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?


Another approach is to wave your hand and let them go at it. Have it take a bit more time than they thought. Then describe their end result - a bunch of mismatched tin hammered into a maze of 2x4's guarded by remote-control toys duct-taped to hunting weapons bought from Walmart. Redneck Heaven!

[dbsousa]

And fail. Have I missed something? Has there in RL ever been a human built Von Newman machine?

Just last week in fact...(link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15272926%255E30417,00.html) )

This is a fairly limited version, and not likely to build a base any time soon...

[McCoy]

Just last week in fact...(link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15272926%255E30417,00.html) )

This is a fairly limited version, and not likely to build a base any time soon...
Kwel! State of the art is further along than I thought! Still a long way from assembling a robot from supplied modules to building one that can build a base from junk yard previously owned material.

(Yet the thought of a man being able to fly effortlessly by thinking pure thoughts bothers me not at all.)

[Ternaugh]

Isn't that a Turing machine?

By Von Newman machine I ment a machine that can build a copy of itself from raw materials. Is that the term?

Oops! My error!
JoeG

[prestidigitator]

Isn't that a Turing machine?

By Von Newman machine I ment a machine that can build a copy of itself from raw materials. Is that the term?
The trick isn't getting the thing to build a copy of itself. The trick is getting it to do both that and something useful, for what good would be a robot who's sole function is to build another robot?

I read an article in Discover a few years ago about a project that was underway to create nanites that could both reproduce and perform other specialized functions that would contribute toward projects such as terraforming and solar power generation. I haven't heard anything about it since, though, so maybe it was a flop.

[McCoy]

The trick isn't getting the thing to build a copy of itself. The trick is getting it to do both that and something useful, for what good would be a robot who's sole function is to build another robot?
What good is a robot who's sole function is to locate raw materials, mine them, refine them, fabricate components, and assemble those components in the correct sequence? Once it masters that, it would be easy enough to instruct them to build other things, such as a base.


I read an article in Discover a few years ago about a project that was underway to create nanites that could both reproduce and perform other specialized functions that would contribute toward projects such as terraforming and solar power generation. I haven't heard anything about it since, though, so maybe it was a flop.
Still ongoing. Still trying to fabricate nanotech replicators. Once we have the tools to build the tools, you'll see a nanotech revolution that will outshadow the electronics revolution.

[Iuz the Evil]

Bah, you guys are making this wayyy too hard!

Bondo, duct-tape, and baling wire. That's what they'll find (once they get past string theory and all that hoooey) is the true stuff holding the universe together.

You can buy the essential material which is the source of universal cohesion at Wal Mart, I don't see why you can't build your cyber-revolution! (At an appropriate point cost)

[Dr. Anomaly]

It's at this point we discover that Wal-Mart (the store) is in fact a large, somewhat klunky Von Newman machine that incorporates humanity as part of its matrix and has been steadily reproducing itself for years. Once a certain "critical mass" is reached (x% of the planet transformed into Wal-Marts) all existing Wal-Mart stores will uproot themselves and stride across the landscape like the Martial war machines, laying waste to all in their path.

[McCoy]

It's at this point we discover that Wal-Mart (the store) is in fact a large, somewhat klunky Von Newman machine that incorporates humanity as part of its matrix and has been steadily reproducing itself for years. Once a certain "critical mass" is reached (x% of the planet transformed into Wal-Marts) all existing Wal-Mart stores will uproot themselves and stride across the landscape like the Martial war machines, laying waste to all in their path.
What do you mean "once?" Thought that happened years ago.

[McCoy]

You can buy the essential material which is the source of universal cohesion at Wal Mart, I don't see why you can't build your cyber-revolution! (At an appropriate point cost)
I think "At an appropriate point cost" is the key phrase. Somehow I get the impression Guyon's players are looking for a way around the point cost.

[prestidigitator]

It's at this point we discover that Wal-Mart (the store) is in fact a large, somewhat klunky Von Newman machine that incorporates humanity as part of its matrix and has been steadily reproducing itself for years. Once a certain "critical mass" is reached (x% of the planet transformed into Wal-Marts) all existing Wal-Mart stores will uproot themselves and stride across the landscape like the Martial war machines, laying waste to all in their path.
How very South Park of you. :)

[Dr. Anomaly]

How very South Park of you. :)
If you say so...has South Park said/done something along those lines? If so, I'm sorry for an unintentional plagerisation...I don't watch South Park -- never have, likely never will.

[Dust Raven]

It's at this point we discover that Wal-Mart (the store) is in fact a large, somewhat klunky Von Newman machine that incorporates humanity as part of its matrix and has been steadily reproducing itself for years. Once a certain "critical mass" is reached (x% of the planet transformed into Wal-Marts) all existing Wal-Mart stores will uproot themselves and stride across the landscape like the Martial war machines, laying waste to all in their path.

Great, now I have to try to squeeze this into my signature file.... :rolleyes:

Maybe I'll just use it for my email sig. :think:

[McCoy]

If you say so...has South Park said/done something along those lines? If so, I'm sorry for an unintentional plagerisation...I don't watch South Park -- never have, likely never will.
"Something Wal-Mart This Way Comes" had some points of simularity.

Your choice to watch South Park or not, but if not, you are missing some of the most original stuff on television.

Let me guess, you're one of those people who doesn't watch television.

[Dr. Anomaly]

"Something Wal-Mart This Way Comes" had some points of simularity.

Your choice to watch South Park or not, but if not, you are missing some of the most original stuff on television.

Let me guess, you're one of those people who doesn't watch television.
No, I do watch it...just not a lot of it. And what little I saw/heard of South Park when it first came out just turned me off. It looked to me like a bunch of badly-animated kids with poor attitudes indulging in a lot of gratuitous cursing. Not really my 'thing'.

[AlHazred]

And fail. Have I missed something? Has there in RL ever been a human built Von Newman machine?

Yep. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4538547.stm)

[EDIT - There is no shame in being scooped by dbsousa.]

[McCoy]

No, I do watch it...just not a lot of it. And what little I saw/heard of South Park when it first came out just turned me off. It looked to me like a bunch of badly-animated kids with poor attitudes indulging in a lot of gratuitous cursing. Not really my 'thing'.
Yes, it is poorly animated, that's part of the charm. Don't think I would call the language "gratuitous." But there is a lot of lampoon, social comentary, and genuinely funny stuff in this series.

[Dust Raven]

Your choice to watch South Park or not, but if not, you are missing some of the most original stuff on television.

Which is a shining example of the quality of modern entertainment... :ugly:

Granted, I've seen a few episodes of South Park and liked it (like when the loser kid turned supervillain and tried to flood the world by leaving his garden hose on), a few others it just seemed like poorly presented shock television (like a singing turd).

[Guyon]

McCoy Wrote: Somehow I get the impression Guyon's players are looking for a way around the point cost.
That is exactly what they are tying to do. Build a base at near zero point cost and in record time. I do not want to stifle their creative process and take any fun out of the game. On the other hand I don't want them to do just anything they want just because they are anxious to get it done. If I let that go I lose all control of my game, plus what will they want to do next in 2 weeks?
Besides, "Haste makes waste."

[Vondy]

That is exactly what they are tying to do. Build a base at near zero point cost and in record time.

If they don't pay points for it, then it really isn't their base. I'd let them do it, but use it as a plot device, and have everything go wrong. That kind of technology might draw attention from national security types, and what if the program developes its own intelligence. Maybe its the AI's base...

[Dust Raven]

That is exactly what they are tying to do. Build a base at near zero point cost and in record time. I do not want to stifle their creative process and take any fun out of the game. On the other hand I don't want them to do just anything they want just because they are anxious to get it done. If I let that go I lose all control of my game, plus what will they want to do next in 2 weeks?
Besides, "Haste makes waste."

There is no way around paying for your own stuff. You either pay for it, or you don't get it. The Points don't care where it comes from, that's the GM's and the player's job and just SFX. The points are only concerned with what it does and how it affects the campaign world.

Although if you want to get tricky, you can tell your players that whatever they spend on the robot builders will be the total value of the base the robots eventually build. No more, no less.

What could be really fun is to go ahead and let them have what they want, but really only give them what they pay for. They're paying for some robots. All they get is robots. They tell the robots to build them a base, what will they do as the robots start to dissassemble the city for raw materials? What will the players do with the robots have had enough of the characters' senseless and contradictory commands, so they add a small army of soldier robot to kill the PCs once they enter the base because they can't directly act against the heroes themselves. "The base is complete, please go inside.... please, wouldn't you like to see the inside of the base? The inside is really nice, we placed food in there. You like food? Go see the food in the base... yes, go inside... hahahahahaahaha."

[Guyon]

Even before I posted this question, I had it in the back of my mind that sometime we have to have the robots go nuts and try and kill the players. I am sure they are expecting that. Also cheep parts do brake down causing the players problems too.

But....
Dust Raven's idea about the robots going crazy and taking the city apart to use for materials is sheer genius. I am still laughing that the thought of that idea. You made my day!


I am still very torn about if I should let them do this, or how long it should take. At any rate, It will make a few nice plot twists.

[Dust Raven]

But....
Dust Raven's idea about the robots going crazy and taking the city apart to use for materials is sheer genius. I am still laughing that the thought of that idea. You made my day!

:D Well, I try...

... and thanks :)

[Dust Raven]

Probably not important, but...

This thread had got me thinking about the concept of self replicating machines and I started doing some research. Turns out that these aren't Von Neuman machines at all. I thought it was kinda weird the term was being tossed all over this thread but not mentioned once in the articles I've been reading about the recent development, and did a search. You know what a Von Neuman machine is? It's a standard computer, and we've been using them for years! While John Von Neuman did do lots of thought research into the concept of self replicating machines, he also did a lot of thinking into how to design a computing machine in the most efficient manner, and his design is what was used as a model for the modern PC. The term he used to refer to his self-replicating machines was Universal Replicators, or Clanking Replicators.

[McCoy]

The term he used to refer to his self-replicating machines was Universal Replicators, or Clanking Replicators.
I stand corrected.

[prestidigitator]

Probably not important, but...

This thread had got me thinking about the concept of self replicating machines and I started doing some research. Turns out that these aren't Von Neuman machines at all. I thought it was kinda weird the term was being tossed all over this thread but not mentioned once in the articles I've been reading about the recent development, and did a search. You know what a Von Neuman machine is? It's a standard computer, and we've been using them for years! While John Von Neuman did do lots of thought research into the concept of self replicating machines, he also did a lot of thinking into how to design a computing machine in the most efficient manner, and his design is what was used as a model for the modern PC. The term he used to refer to his self-replicating machines was Universal Replicators, or Clanking Replicators.
Nice catch. It didn't seem quite right to me, either. However, it was more interesting to get caught up in the intent rather than the terminology.

[input.jack]

Okay, chiming in with my 2 cents...

The primary characters involved in this project are superheroes, right? But theyre apparently -not- "tech-based heroes" (like Iron Man), or "gadgeteers" (like Batman). Nor are they "super scientists" (like Reed Richards). So...how far do you think this little project would get if they -werent- superheroes?

If I read this correctly, the main "engineer" of the group is a guy with a "slightly above average intellect" (Im guessing a 13 INT), and little computer programming training. Assuming that the tech-base of the campaign isnt -too- different from the real world (and we have no reason to infer that it is), then Id say that their results should be based on how much time they spend on it....and who they hire to help them.

Just like a normal persons results would be.

Yeah....tin sheeting tacked to 2x4's, guarded by remote control toys taped to kitchen knives. That -does- sound about right.

If they want to go to Wal-Mart and buy components to build robots, to build robots, to build their base...laugh at them. They got it coming.

It looks to me that your players are trying to bully you into giving them too much for free. If one of them were an "Iron Man" type, or something, who -already- had alot of technical and scientific skills, and the campaigns tech base was higher than that of modern Earth, then I might let them have the base they -paid for- in the time they ask.

But theyd have to pay for it first. And the players would be able to justify the scientifically revolutionary breakthroughs of making not only working, self-replicating robits, but ones that could walk independantly, recognize coplex situations and objects, and perform useful functions such as construction, in so short an amount of time.

And itd cost a h*lluva lot more money than parts from Wal-Mart.

I mean geez! Nobody thought to go to Radio Shack for the computer parts! SHEESH!

[Dust Raven]

If they want to go to Wal-Mart and buy components to build robots, to build robots, to build their base...laugh at them. They got it coming.

If you haven't seen the flim, Explorers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089114/), do so. It's amazing what a dream and a little bit of imagination can accomplish.






But yes, you should still laugh at them. :)