Monofilament Blade

[starblaze]

I have a gadgetering character who uses a monofilament blade as one of her weapons. I have so far had it be an HKA with armor piercing. But I wanted to post so other suggestions as well. Any thoughts?

[Agemegos]

Frankly, I don't think they would work. The edge would hit a crystal or a tough macromolecule and snap. Besides which, like the fine glass pipettes used in getting organelles out of cells, its very likely that such a fine thing could pass right through cell membranes and that they would just reassemble when it had passed. But that's just me.

[Trebuchet]

The classic Larry Niven monofilament blade was a monomolecular chain reinforced with a force field. The only known things that could stop it IIRC was a General Products hull (also a single molecule) or a force field.

I'd build it as a medium sized RKA NND Does Body. Three or four dice should be enough to kill most beings in a single swing; more if you want to get really nasty. For all practical purposes, except the reflection bit, a monofilament blade is equivalent to a light saber, so you might Search for the various threads on building light sabers in this forum.

[Agemegos]

The classic Larry Niven monofilament blade was a monomolecular chain reinforced with a force field. The only known things that could stop it IIRC was a General Products hull (also a single molecule) or a force field.

So how long before we have armour vests woven of monomolecular thread, and with force-field plate inserts?

You have to think your technology through in pre-build, not just let players drag in half-baked ideas from every bit of SF they've ever read or seen. Otherwise you end up with PCs owning some very valuable patents.

[tgrandjean]

*grins* Your usual list of options

1) HKA + AP or AP*2
2) HKA + Penatrating or Pen*2
3) HKA + NND + Does Body
4) HKA + AVLD (force fields, hardening) + Does Body

As always, your choice to any of these is whether or not Str adds damage.
BTW add stretching to any of these options for a mono-whip.

[Curufea]

Standard other sci-fi RPGs only deal with monofilament - because monomolecular doesn't fit into their rules (it's kind of a bit too physics-related for them). I'm wondering if you should treat it as a KA with a transform (person with limbs to person with less limbs etc...)

Anyhow, back when Andromeda was a good series (that would be season 1) it was established that the hull consisted of long chain carbon molecules. Strongest thing you could get (barring whatever Niven's GP hulls were made of), but didn't stop things inside getting shaken about.

Of course, after season 1, they casually tossed any science out the window and trek-erised it (and put in enough HTH to please the Hercules fans - both of them)

[Agemegos]

Any thoughts?

The tensile strength of buckytube is on the order of 100Gpa. The tensile strength of steel is up to 340 MPa. So you see that although monomolecular fibres are very strong, they are by no means unbreakable. 'Only' 300 times as strong as steel.

And a monomolecule is mightily thin. The diameter of a single buckytube is about 0.27 nm. So I estimate its strength as that of a steel wire 10 nanometres thick. A breath would break that.

All in all, I estimate the breaking strain of a single buckytube as 5 trillionths of a newton. That's about a trillionth of a pound force. It isn't going to cut through flesh and armour like a wire through cheese. It is going to be incredibly fragile.

A monofilament blade is not an SF object, it is half-baked techno-babble.

[Curufea]

Hence the Niven monomolecular forcefield, and the Andromedan hull being similar to fibre-glass.

[Agemegos]

Hence the Niven monomolecular forcefield, and the Andromedan hull being similar to fibre-glass.

Just so.

Forcefields I can't speculate about. But monofilament itself won't make a practical weapon, let alone a devastating one. By the time you braid it think enough to stand up to the strain of use, it will be as good for cutting things as surgical silk is.

And as for materials reinforced with or spun from from monomolecular filament, to me they suggest armour rather than knives. I think the 'monofilment knife' is arse-forwards. Think of hardened or doubly-hardened flexible armour rather than armour-piercing or penetrating HKAs.

[Killer Shrike]

I have a gadgetering character who uses a monofilament blade as one of her weapons. I have so far had it be an HKA with armor piercing. But I wanted to post so other suggestions as well. Any thoughts?
Well, for starters I think you mean monomolocular. My shoe string is monofilament, and it's not going to cut anything any time soon.


For a Monomolecular-edged blade on the otherhand, HKA with AP works well, as does NND Does Body (Not vs FF, FW, or hyper-dense physiology), or AVLD Does Body vs Power Defense, or any of a number of other power constructs.


The real question should be does HKA AP cause the effect you deem suitable for a weapon with an edge the width of a molecule? If the answer is yes, then you are set.

[ajackson]

The other question is whether the GM is willing to let you have a given writeup. For example, I wouldn't normally permit AVLD does body. As others have noted, realistic physical descriptions of monomolecular blades imply them not being very useful (another problem is that, even if the blade could survive, most materials are capable of simply resealing after a molecule-sized disruption, so you might cut through things and do no damage).

For genre tropes, it might actually be reasonable to have an HKA where Str doesn't add.

[Brother Jim]

just a thought.

the monomolecular edge cuts through things very easily, and the rest of the "blade" continues the separation of pieces-parts until they permanently separate.


or am i not seeing something ?

[Inu]

just a thought.

the monomolecular edge cuts through things very easily, and the rest of the "blade" continues the separation of pieces-parts until they permanently separate.


or am i not seeing something ?
If you're talking about a blade rather than a whip, yah.

The problem I see here is that edges tend to distort - after a hit or two, it's probably not monomolecular any more.

Suffice to say that the technology required to make monomolecular anything worthwhile (usually, particularly advanced forcefield tech) is probably WELL in advance of where most people are gaming. You could certainly imagine a setting where such things could work, and game there. Trek is possibly a place, as are Niven's books. (I include the latter so that nobody thinks I'm dissing people who play in high-tech settings by mentioning only Trek.) It's probably not appropriate for something like cyberpunk.

The previous paragraph, of course, talks only about harder SF games. If you're soft-serving your sci-fi, go for it. :)

I'd personally always have forcefields block them, as well as high-tech enough hardened armour. I'd go with the NND construct.

Alternately, you could say that the forcefield required to stabilise the monofilament reduces its cutting power. In that case, go for AP, APx2, PEN, or any combination of the above.

[Agemegos]

the monomolecular edge cuts through things very easily, and the rest of the "blade" continues the separation of pieces-parts until they permanently separate.


or am i not seeing something ?

You seem to be assuming that the monomolecular edge will be unreasonably strong. But it won't. It will only take a few billionths of a pound force to break a monomolecule.

Edges that smash through armour have to be robust. When it comes right down to it you have to deform the armour, and deforming the armour requires force.

Furthermore, if strong long-chain molecules are available for edging knives, there will be an even better use for them in weaving cloth armour or reinforcing composite plates in armour. We use kevlar for armour, not for knife edges. I bet it would be better than kelvar for stopping bullets. So everyone with armour will be wearing it. So a monomolecular knife edge that cut through kevlar like a knife through cheese, even if it worked, which it wouldn't, would be a useless curiosity.

[Agemegos]

Well, for starters I think you mean monomolocular. My shoe string is monofilament, and it's not going to cut anything any time soon.

Yeah, well. At the time I was reading the Niven with the variable sword in it (was it Ringworld? Did Speaker-to-Animals use one in an attempt to hijack the ship?) my father was stitching up people's facial lacertions with monofilament suturing material. Which is to say nylon or silk that had been extruded at the thickness required, and was not spun or braided out of separate filaments. One filament = monofilament, all fair and above board.

But words sometimes have who meanings, and I don't think that we are in desperate danger of confusing nylon monofilament with monomolecular filament, even if they both go by the same name. So let's not bust anyone's chops. Mkay?

[Killer Shrike]

Yeah, well. At the time I was reading the Niven with the variable sword in it (was it Ringworld? Did Speaker-to-Animals use one in an attempt to hijack the ship?) my father was stitching up people's facial lacertions with monofilament suturing material. Which is to say nylon or silk that had been extruded at the thickness required, and was not spun or braided out of separate filaments. One filament = monofilament, all fair and above board.

But words sometimes have who meanings, and I don't think that we are in desperate danger of confusing nylon monofilament with monomolecular filament, even if they both go by the same name. So let's not bust anyone's chops. Mkay?
Wow. Not much of a sense of humor on some folks I guess.

[Agemegos]

Wow. Not much of a sense of humor on some folks I guess.

Not when so many people's quips sound exactly like other folk's put-downs, no. For a person who is unfamiliar with extruded nylon 'monofilament' your post would not have seemed so side-splittingly funny. You know, and I know, that suture material, fishing line, and spaghetti shoelaces are monofilaments. But some people in this conversation have only come across the word in SF contexts, as a portmanteau of 'monomolecular filament'. There has to be a way of pointing out the existence of the non-SF sense of the word without being obscure and crushing.

[Curufea]

I've always assumed that roleplaying rules in a scifi setting use the term "monofilament" because the rules are incapable of adequately simulating the Niven monomolecular weapon (otherwise known as the Variable Sword - which had the disadvantage of not being able to thrust, and therefore could not be used to escape from a locked room or any other concave area). And therefore they fall back to a similar sounding word, and just make it more armour piercing than average. Although I think Shadowrun calls it "dicoat" for a diamond-coated weapon, that has the same basic effect.

[Killer Shrike]

Not when so many people's quips sound exactly like other folk's put-downs, no. For a person who is unfamiliar with extruded nylon 'monofilament' your post would not have seemed so side-splittingly funny. You know, and I know, that suture material, fishing line, and spaghetti shoelaces are monofilaments. But some people in this conversation have only come across the word in SF contexts, as a portmanteau of 'monomolecular filament'. There has to be a way of pointing out the existence of the non-SF sense of the word without being obscure and crushing.
Actually, it was a Shadowrun reference; from the Street Samurais Catalog.

But all that aside, so sorry to have affended your delicate sensibilities. :rolleyes:

[Susano]

Actually, it was a Shadowrun reference; from the Street Samurais Catalog.

I knew I should have called you on it!

:)

[Killer Shrike]

I knew I should have called you on it!

:)
And I knew that you would get it {bows} ;)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yeah, well. At the time I was reading the Niven with the variable sword in it (was it Ringworld? Did Speaker-to-Animals use one in an attempt to hijack the ship?) my father was stitching up people's facial lacertions with monofilament suturing material. Which is to say nylon or silk that had been extruded at the thickness required, and was not spun or braided out of separate filaments. One filament = monofilament, all fair and above board.

But words sometimes have who meanings, and I don't think that we are in desperate danger of confusing nylon monofilament with monomolecular filament, even if they both go by the same name. So let's not bust anyone's chops. Mkay?

You wanna talk about "busting chops"?

How about we forget the physics or whether or not the weapon will actually work, and help a fellow gamer design an ultra-cool weapon.....

[Agemegos]

You wanna talk about "busting chops"?

How about we forget the physics or whether or not the weapon will actually work, and help a fellow gamer design an ultra-cool weapon.....
Okay. How about Desolid, usable against others, area effect radius, no range, personal immunity, one charge per day continuing for 24 hours? That is pretty cool if you can get a nice little NND does body affects desolid. Of course it isn't much like a monofilament knife, but neither are a lot of things.

Me, I'd rather help a fellow GM construct a game that doesn't run into problems with the consistency and capability of technology.

[Agemegos]

Actually, it was a Shadowrun reference; from the Street Samurais Catalog.

Ah! So now a lack of sense of humour is the same thing as not having read the same Shadowrun supplements you have read.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Me, I'd rather help a fellow GM construct a game that doesn't run into problems with the consistency and capability of technology.

Some people don't require that for a fun game.

For some people, its all about ideas. Imagination.

Whether or not something is possible in the realm of physics if often secondary for most GM's and completely irrelevant to some.

He didn't give us any details on his campaign setting. Perhaps he's running Space Opera or Science/Fantasy, where adherence to real-science is irrelevant and contradictory to the genre.....

[NuSoardGraphite]

I have a gadgetering character who uses a monofilament blade as one of her weapons. I have so far had it be an HKA with armor piercing. But I wanted to post so other suggestions as well. Any thoughts?

An HKA with AP is a good start, but how effective do you want this weapon to be?

Do you want it to be like a lightsabre, and capable of cutting through nearly anything? If so, you might want an NND or AVLD does body (defense is FF or perhaps double hardened armor)

Do you want it to be able to slice through "most" materials easily, but only if sufficient STR is put into the attack? In which case an Armor Piercing HKA is the answer. You might want to go AP X2 though. That way, even armor that is normally hardened falls prey to the deadly MonoSword! The rare-expensive Crysteel armor can repell it though (i.e. Crysteel is Hardened X2)

My suggestion is to go with the HKA APX2. That way you get a character who has a weapon that can slice through body armor as if it isn't there. It can even slice into the hulls of some military vehicles, but tanks and heavy armored vehicles are out of its league...

I would also give the blade a base damage +1DC higher than the norm for that weapon type (if its a Longsword with a mono-edge, it would rate at 5DC or 1 1/2D6K instead of the typical Longsword's 4DC or 1D6+1K) to help represent the fact that it cuts through flesh like a hot knife through butter....

[proditor]

Some people don't require that for a fun game.

For some people, its all about ideas. Imagination.

Whether or not something is possible in the realm of physics if often secondary for most GM's and completely irrelevant to some.

He didn't give us any details on his campaign setting. Perhaps he's running Space Opera or Science/Fantasy, where adherence to real-science is irrelevant and contradictory to the genre.....
Well said.

If, for instance, this guy was trying to replicate the sword used by Nemesis in the comic Alpha Flight, referred to as "Thinner than a molecule" or come up with something similar to a lightsaber, well, we should just chuck the science books out the window.

My personal take on it:

If I'm going for monomolecular/Di-cote, etc, I go with a moderate HKA ( 1 1/2 or 2d6) that has at least AP and probably penetrating, possibly both as much as twice. So the most extreme might be a Di-Coted Dai-Katana at about 2d6 HKA, AP (x2), Penetrating (x2)

Lightsaber/Laser sword constructs, I usually go with RKA (Around 3-4d6), NND (Force fields and certain campaign defined metals), Does BODY, No Range.

[Killer Shrike]

Ah! So now a lack of sense of humour is the same thing as not having read the same Shadowrun supplements you have read.
On the contrary, my argumentative fellow forumite; the humor was self-apparant, no awareness of the original source necessary.

I do wonder why you seem so hell-bent on being confrontational however.

[Susano]

I have always felt that "STR Does Not Add" (-1/2) is a valid limitation for these swords. No matter how hard you swing it, it isn't going to do any more damage when it hits.

[Agemegos]

For some people, its all about ideas. Imagination.

Whether or not something is possible in the realm of physics if often secondary for most GM's and completely irrelevant to some.

Indeed. And it is exactly such people who think "We've got an immensely strong, incredibly fine, light thread? Cool! That'd make great armour."

[proditor]

Indeed. And it is exactly such people who think "We've got an immensely strong, incredibly fine, light thread? Cool! That'd make great armour."
The only thing is, the original poster asked how to make a nifty pig-sticker, not for a reasonable list of what uses one might find for monomolecular thread.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Killer Shrike
Well, for starters I think you mean monomolocular. My shoe string is monofilament, and it's not going to cut anything any time soon.

Day late and a dollar short on calling out that refrence....

[Dauntless]

I pretty much agree 100% with Agemegos. The idea of a monomolecular wire/sword has always seemed a bit preposterous to me, even in Space Opera terms. As Agemegos pointed out, a monomolecular object would be incredibly weak. This is the same logic that a bullet a molecule in size would be able to penetrate any armor...think about that for a second. If this were true, air should be able to penetrate your armor a molecule at a time.

Kinetic energy = .5mass*velocity squared. If your mass is virtually zero, your kinetic energy is virtually zero, and you need that kinetic energy to pry apart the bonds of the molecules of whatever it is you want to cut. What everyone is thinking about when they think monomolecular blades can cut through anything is Pressure = Force/area. Since the area is virtually zero, they think that as the limit of the area approaches zero, the pressure approaches infinity. But they forget that the Force is also approaching zero because of the near masslessness.

I also agree with Agemegos that technological items (as well as magic in fantasy settings) must be thought through in terms of its ramifications. As the saying goes, "inconsistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". even if you say that this is high technology and akin to magic, and therefore is inscrutable to logic, common sense, or our current understanding of reality, you have to think about how this technology can impact everything else.

A monomolecular sword just breaks down too many things for me, and is beyond my suspension of disbelief.

[NuSoardGraphite]

A monomolecular sword just breaks down too many things for me, and is beyond my suspension of disbelief.

Your suspension of disbelief.

Thats fine, but there's penty of people running around who think its a fine idea for a weapon, and apparently it isn't beyond their suspension of disbelief, so why not help a fellow gamer design an effective weapon writeup instead of raining on someone's parade.

Fun, not realism. Fun people! Games are for Fun!!!

[Mentor]

Indeed. And it is exactly such people who think "We've got an immensely strong, incredibly fine, light thread? Cool! That'd make great armour."
And the GM can quite reasonably reply, "Yep. Too bad the stuff can't be woven, or the filaments repel one another without a surrounding force field, or the only culture that produces it are proto Berserkers and don't believe in using armor."

No question that it is still rubber science or magic in its effect, but that is the purview of the GM.

[Dauntless]

Your suspension of disbelief.

Thats fine, but there's penty of people running around who think its a fine idea for a weapon, and apparently it isn't beyond their suspension of disbelief, so why not help a fellow gamer design an effective weapon writeup instead of raining on someone's parade.

Fun, not realism. Fun people! Games are for Fun!!!

Sure, if it floats someone's boat to have stuff like that, more power to you. That's why there's often an unwritten and unspoken social contract. This social contract basically determines the level of realism and drama that your campaign will have. If everyone agrees with this unspoken contract, then the games will be all the more enjoyable.

However, I said what I said for those who may think that monofilament/molecular blades are realistic or plausible (at least in a near term technological sense). I remember when I was younger I didn't really question the technology or magic in games since I thought what was written was plausible. But if I was playing in a realistic or gritty campaign, I didn't want fluff stuff in my game.

I also tend to disagree with the idea that games are purely about fun. Games can be educational too (and yes, education can be fun). The best campaign I ever played was a Phoenix Command campaign set in the Vietnam War. Not only did I teach the players a lot of the history and culture of Vietnam, the atmosphere was rife with real life (player, not character) decision making. I had the players genuinely scared of combat and not wondering whether what they were doing was right or wrong.

The bottomline is that gamers should be exposed to all types of play styles. From the purely fantastic, escapist styles of games, to the realistic, gritty and educational types of gaming.

[Dauntless]

If one is intent on creating a monomolecular style blade (or rather, basically a sword that can cut through anything), why not do it like this.

I'd make it a penetrating and armor piercing hand killing attack, probably 2d6. If you really want to make it deadly, then make it a AVLD 1d6HKA that does BODY, with the defense being a force field or strong magnetic field. If you make the sword whiplike, then give it the Indirect advantage as well.

As for an explanation for how it works? Well, you're going to have to apply rubber science to make it work. And besides, why would you want a rationale for it anyways unless you want a suspension of disbelief? But if you insist, here's some ideas. Perhaps the blade can be reinforced by energy, such that the material bonds in the blade are strengthened. If the blade is metallic, it can use magnetic fields to achieve this, so it might theoretically be stronger than a carbon nanotube arrangement. Some sort of gravitic amplifier could make the blade heavier which would increase the kinetic energy behind the blade. I'd envision it as a wire with a ball at the end (so you can imagine where the blade is). When the sword isn't in use, you can retract the filament into the handle. If the sword is whiplike, you'll have to have some sort of visible aura around the whip, otherwise you'll likely wind up slicing yourself in half with your own invisible whip!!

Another option is a hacksaw like kind of sword, where you have a conventional metal rod which holds the monomolecular filament between the ends. This would also solve the problem of needing to increase the apparent mass of the sword, but it does present the problem of having the conventional blade getting in the way. Of course, the blade can't be whiplike in this fashion. Honestly, if such a thing were possible, I think this version would make the most sense.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Another option is a hacksaw like kind of sword, where you have a conventional metal rod which holds the monomolecular filament between the ends. This would also solve the problem of needing to increase the apparent mass of the sword, but it does present the problem of having the conventional blade getting in the way. Of course, the blade can't be whiplike in this fashion. Honestly, if such a thing were possible, I think this version would make the most sense.
If you're going to do this, you might even reason that the monomolecular filament gets broken with every successful strike, and that a mechanism in the sword "re-strings" itself after every break. This could be a good rational for Fuel Charges...eventually your reel of monomolecular cord is going to go empty, and you have to put a new spool in the hilt of the sword.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Sure, if it floats someone's boat to have stuff like that, more power to you. That's why there's often an unwritten and unspoken social contract. This social contract basically determines the level of realism and drama that your campaign will have. If everyone agrees with this unspoken contract, then the games will be all the more enjoyable.

Absolutely.



However, I said what I said for those who may think that monofilament/molecular blades are realistic or plausible (at least in a near term technological sense). I remember when I was younger I didn't really question the technology or magic in games since I thought what was written was plausible. But if I was playing in a realistic or gritty campaign, I didn't want fluff stuff in my game.

Agreed. The level of realism depends on genre and playing style etc. I have mono-filiment (or what-have-you) blades in my Space Opera campaign, and probably in my Cyberpunk campaign, but not in my Gritty Space Marines campaign.



I also tend to disagree with the idea that games are purely about fun. Games can be educational too (and yes, education can be fun). The best campaign I ever played was a Phoenix Command campaign set in the Vietnam War. Not only did I teach the players a lot of the history and culture of Vietnam, the atmosphere was rife with real life (player, not character) decision making. I had the players genuinely scared of combat and not wondering whether what they were doing was right or wrong.

This I also agree with.

Although I think the main point of games (any kind of game) is fun, additional benefits can range from social companionship to education.



The bottomline is that gamers should be exposed to all types of play styles. From the purely fantastic, escapist styles of games, to the realistic, gritty and educational types of gaming.

Most definately. However the last thing I want to see around here is people (not point fingers now) telling others what not to put into their games simply because it isn't plausible. I could understand if the original poster asks if something is or isn't plausible for a game involving real-science issues, but in general, it can and should be assumed that if a poster asks for a specific effect, they could care less whether or not the SFX are "plausible" and we should just try to help them out in any way we can. Leave the science lessons for those who ask for them! Or at the very least, mention it as an aside rather than trying to sound as if one is chastising the original poster for being ignorant of physics...

[NuSoardGraphite]

If you're going to do this, you might even reason that the monomolecular filament gets broken with every successful strike, and that a mechanism in the sword "re-strings" itself after every break. This could be a good rational for Fuel Charges...eventually your reel of monomolecular cord is going to go empty, and you have to put a new spool in the hilt of the sword.

This is pretty close to how I justify this effect in my Star Hero games.

"Mono-blades" in my Space Opera campaign don't have mono-filament wires stretched along their edges or anything, how they work is that they are laser-sharpened along the edge to give them a mono-molecular edge. The blade itself is made of a rubber-science alloy which is also strengthened via a magnetic field (which consequently also allows the blades to parry energy bolts with little to no damage to the blade itself)

Even with a Magnetically strengthened blade of "Ridiculum" (I haven't named the alloy yet, but Adamantium is so tired, I want to find something new) the edges are brittle, so they tend to break in combat and need to be sharpened regularly. This is where the sheath comes in. The sheath has both a laser-sharpening system built in as well as maintenence nanites programmed to repair and maintain the blade for battle-readiness!

I write these blades up as +1 DC higher than the standard for their type (to represent their ability to cut flesh easily) and AP.

Thats all. Nothing too fancy.