Fuel Charges from TUV

[MacBean]

Just wondering if I'm missing something. Most of the vehicles in TUV have (1 continuing fuel charge; 6 hours)(-0) or something along these lines.

When I try to do that with HD(1.38) it becomes a +1/4 advantage. According to TUV p29, fuel charges cannot become an advantage.

[MacBean]

Another question.

According to TUV, the 'Only on appropriate terrain' limitation can be -1/4 or more but HD only allows -1/2 or more.

[Simon]

Originally posted by MacBean
Just wondering if I'm missing something. Most of the vehicles in TUV have (1 continuing fuel charge; 6 hours)(-0) or something along these lines.

When I try to do that with HD(1.38) it becomes a +1/4 advantage. According to TUV p29, fuel charges cannot become an advantage.
I've got a question off to Steve on this, as it is in direct contradiction to other rulings on Continuing Fuel Charges.

I believe that TUV is in error, though that is up to Steve to decide.....

[Simon]

Originally posted by MacBean
Another question.

According to TUV, the 'Only on appropriate terrain' limitation can be -1/4 or more but HD only allows -1/2 or more.
FREd, pg 139: "Only On Appropriate Terrain (-1/2 or more)"

That is where the value was taken from. If you want to change it to allow -1/4 values, then you can either edit the template (permanent change) or use a Custom Modifier.

[MacBean]

All but two of the ground vehicles in the TUV have this at the -1/4 level.

Shouldn't we be able to write up published vehicles without using custom modifiers or editing a template?

[Simon]

Originally posted by MacBean
All but two of the ground vehicles in the TUV have this at the -1/4 level.

Shouldn't we be able to write up published vehicles without using custom modifiers or editing a template?
HD is designed to follow the rules as stated in FREd. If those rules need to change, then so be it, but it's not up to me to change them...that is a call for Steve to make.

[Al_Beddow]

I too have been looking at this. I was trying to create the M2 Bradley (TUV pg 50) in HD and couldn't get the costs right, so I took out FREd and TUV.

First we need the info on "Calculating a Limitations Value" (FREd pg 180)
"In short, when calculating the value of a Limitation with a modifire ADD the modifiers which are additional Limitations ot the base Limitations Value, and SUBTRACT the ones which reduce the Limitations effectiveness

So...

Motorized Tracked Vehicle Movement:
24 cp +12 inches of movement (2cp/1")

-2 1 Continuing fuel charge (base cost of the 1 continuing charge Limitation)
_ _ _ Modifiers to this Limitation:
-0 Easily obtained
-0.25 Can be turned off without loosing the remaing charge


Ok, so using the rules on limitations this should bring the cost of the charge to -1.75 because the "can be turned off..." reduces the effectiveness of the base limitation (the remainder of a charge is lost when the device is turned off). (FREd pg 182, bottom right "Fuel Charges")

You're almost done, you now have to figure in the modifier to the Base Limitation cost for how long the charge lasts.

Looking at the section about charges ("Continuing charges" FREd pg 182/183) A charge duration of 6 hours drops the cost 7 levels, which drops the cost of 1 charge to the same as 9-12 charges, or -0.


While working on the M2 Bradley, I discovered HD
- won't allow the limitation "Only in Appropriate terrain" to have a modifier lower than -1/2
- Doesn't compute the cost for the Limitation "charges" properly
The cost for 1 charge is +1/4 instead of -2
The Limitation mod for 6 hourse should reduce the cost of "Charges" to -0
The Limitation mod "Fuel" doesn't allow for the +0 when it is "easily available" (you have to de-select "Fuel" to get the math right.


TUV lists the Real Point cost of the tracked movement as 19 points.
If you select "fuel" and use the lowest mod, the total cost of the tracked movement is 20 real points.
If you leave off the "fuel", the cost comes down to 16 real points.

Does that help?

[Simon]

I'm currently talking to Steve about Charges. HD is doing things properly according to FREd....all the values are calculated correctly.

However, there may be a new ruling which Steve is considering about Charges. It's one that I don't particularly agree with and am discussing with him.

If the way Charges are calculated is changed, then HD will be changed accordingly.....but not until Steve makes his decision on it. Until then, HD will continue to do things the way it currently is.

As for the "Only on Appropriate Terrain" that is a modification of the Limitation that was made in TUV. For the time being, if you want a -1/4 value for it, use a Custom Modifier. HD is currently using the value and range listed in FREd.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Al_Beddow
IWhile working on the M2 Bradley, I discovered HD
- won't allow the limitation "Only in Appropriate terrain" to have a modifier lower than -1/2
- Doesn't compute the cost for the Limitation "charges" properly
The cost for 1 charge is +1/4 instead of -2
The Limitation mod for 6 hourse should reduce the cost of "Charges" to -0
The Limitation mod "Fuel" doesn't allow for the +0 when it is "easily available" (you have to de-select "Fuel" to get the math right.

You're misinterpreting what HD is doing.

Select 1 Charge. The cost is -2 Points (correct).

Select Continuing: 6 Hours. The cost is now +0, as we have moved 7 levels on the charges table (from 1 charge to 13-16). (correct)

This is where you're calculating things incorrectly. Moving down 1 level takes you from 1 charge to 2. Moving 2 takes you from 1 to 3, moving 3, takes you from 1 to 4, moving 4 takes you from 1 to 5-6, moving 5 takes you from 1 to 7-8, moving 6 takes you from 1 to 9-12, moving 7 takes you from 1 to 13-16.

13-16 Charges is a +0 Modifier.

The only point on which HD and TUV disagree is the Fuel. Fuel enhances the value of the Charges, allowing you to turn them on and off. HD is using the rules as stated by Steve during its development: Fuel increases the value to +1/4.

[Simon]

OK...I just got off the phone with Steve and I can now see where he's going with the statement in TUV....the problem is that Charges really needs to be revisited in terms of the rules being applied to it....the rule in TUV isn't really "fleshed out".

The concept behind the rule is that Steve doesn't feel that a character should be charged points for something which is still more limited than buying it flat. Movement is inherently constant and 0-END on vehicles. It's that 0-END bit that's the kicker. Regardless of how many charges you put on it, or how long they last, you're still limiting the vehicle by saying that there is only so much that it can move before it runs out of fuel. The limitation may not be worth much (-0), but it's certainly not an advantage.

However, you can't make this a blanket statement that Fuel cannot make Charges an Advantage, because this is certainly not always the case. Having 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours on your EB is a rather distinct Advantage. The current rules almost undervalue this, IMO.

Steve is going to revisit the rules for Charges as soon as he has a chance. What we were talking about is the idea that Charges which are placed on an ability that does not cost END (Life Support, Movement on a Vehicle, etc.) will cap at -0. If the ability costs END, then there will be no cap to the Charges and they will be allowed to go into positive values (whether that occurs by placing Fuel onto them, or by continuing them, or whatever).

Changing HD at this point to match what is in TUV would be equally as bad as simply leaving it the way it currently is -- it would create just as many problems on other characters as it would solve on vehicles.

Until Steve finalizes the rulings on Charges, there will be no change in HD. Once Steve finalizes the rulings, then HD will be adjusted accordingly.

[MacBean]

Originally posted by dsimon
I'm currently talking to Steve about Charges. HD is doing things properly according to FREd....all the values are calculated correctly.


I guess this brings up another question then. And this may be more for Steve to answer, I'm not sure.

As new books come out and do things /slightly off/ from the main book(like the terrain limitation), will those changes be implemented or will HD be based on the main book alone and anything else may need custom mods?

[Simon]

HD will, generally, be changed to reflect any changed rules. However, this will only apply to the current version of HD....while I may make adjustments to back versions (like adjusting v1 after v2 is released), I don't make any promises on this.

If a rules violation is pointed out (violation meaning that HD is not following the rules in FREd), then I will fix it regardless of version, but if it's a modification to the rule that came about in a supplement, then I will only commit to updating the current version of HD.

[Al_Beddow]

Originally posted by dsimon
You're misinterpreting what HD is doing.

Dan,
I don't think I am using the rules the wrong way, but I have a suggestion that would help you get me over this hump.

If you would, take the example from TUV that I've been trying to get working: TUV pg 50, B2 Bradley - Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle - Real Cost 19cp.

Put it into HD so that the real cost comes out correct (again, 19 cp).

Post how to do it so I can see what the correct way is and figure out what I am doing wrong.

Thank you,

[Simon]

Originally posted by Al_Beddow
Dan,
I don't think I am using the rules the wrong way, but I have a suggestion that would help you get me over this hump.

If you would, take the example from TUV that I've been trying to get working: TUV pg 50, B2 Bradley - Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle - Real Cost 19cp.

Put it into HD so that the real cost comes out correct (again, 19 cp).

Post how to do it so I can see what the correct way is and figure out what I am doing wrong.

Thank you,
Please read my statements above concerning Charges. The rules modification stated in TUV (placing a cap of -0 on Fuel Charges) doesn't work. Steve and I have already talked about this. The concept for the rule is sound, but there needs to be a number of questions answered and issues worked out before it can be put into active use and worked into HD.

What it's looking like we'll end up with is that Powers which cost 0-END when Charges is applied (either innately or because Reduced END has been purchased) will have a cap on the Charges Limitation of -0. If the Power costs END, then there will not be a cap placed on Charges, and it will be capable of becoming an Advantage.

Additionally, I'll be working another refinement into HD on Charges: you will only be able to purchase "Continuing" Charges on Powers which are Constant, Persistent, or Inherent.

The main question that still needs to be answered is whether Boostable and/or Recoverable will affect this cap at all. I suspect that Boostable might but Recoverable won't, but that's up to Steve to decide.

Until the new rules surrounding Charges are finalized, I am not going to change HD. HD is using the rules for Charges as stated and defined in FREd. TUV is using a modification of those rules.

Until the modification is "finalized" by Steve, you will need to use a Custom Modifier in order to construct the ability.