Re: Mechanon's Self Destruct

[innominatus]

1.) If the "Hero System Rules" board isn't the proper forum for discussing "design philosophy", when where IS the proper forum? Certainly I can exchange opinions back & forth with other players in any forum, but I would be interested in learning the "official party line" on why certain rules and powers were changed from the way they were in 4th Edition when they already seemed to work perfectly well. Is there a FAQ on WHY the revisions were made?

2.) I understand your point that a debate over which way is the "right" way to simulate various effects would ultimately be meaningless because at the end of the day we would only be comparing opinions and there's no absolute right or wrong with regard to opinions. My contention is simply that the GAME MECHANIC used in the Champions book to achieve the desired special effect (having Mechanon's head detach from his body so he can return and fight another day) won't work because, as the rules are written, they don't do what you want them to do. Either that, or your understanding of the rules (in this instance) is vastly different from mine. To wit: assume a character (any character will do) can create Duplicates that are less powerful than the original. If the original character is killed, can one of the duplicates be designated the "new" original, and gain the increased power level of the original even though the points were never paid to make said duplicate as powerful as the original? Or would the Duplicate have to wait until he can afford to buy back the difference in points between the original and duplicate before he can be declared the new "original"? And what happens if there's only one duplicate, like in the case of Mechanon? Even though the points were only paid for a 768 pt. Duplicate, does the detached head spontaneously gain the ability to become a 1,251 pt. character at the GM's whim so that the extra points spent on the original don't simply disappear into the ether?

It would appear that your Duplication method for simulating the special effect requires a certain amount of holding one's nose and saying, "I'm the GM, so it just happens the way I want it to." The Shape Shift method requires a lot less "Because-I-said-so"-ism, in my estimation; the Shapeshifted Mechanon has the exact same stats and powers as your lesser Duplicate, plus there's no expectation that Mechanon will spontaneously acquire enough extra XP's to make up for whatever he might've lost by being stranded as a single, lesser-powered Duplicate form. Although in retrospect, it occurs to me that neither option is ideal, since both the Duplicated Mechanon and the Shapeshifted one would start out with the same damage and states (Flashed, Mind Controlled, etc.) as the original and would likely be in pretty sorry shape if Mechanon was forced to exercise his "escape clause" in the first place. What might be better is to add a Triggered Summon of a fanatically loyal member Mechanon head with the "Arrives under own power" Limitation. If it's at all possible for the head to make its escape, then the "Summoned" head would simply detach on the spot and flee, and could then Shape Shift back by having his robotic factory assemble a new body for the head to attach to. If the head was some how disabled at the same time, then Mechanon's body sends out a coded signal to the same base, and downloads the memories to the cybernetic brain of a fresh (Game Mechanic: Summoned the nearest existing) head. The factory then assembles a new body around the head (Game Mechanic: the head Shape Shifts into the full body), which could then head to the spot of the former model's demise. In either case, since (in game mechanics terms) the abandoned body can't be "salvaged" for technology except as a plot device, the GM could just rule that it self-destructed for free.

The ability to return from the dead the way Mechanon is scripted as being able to do is a valuable and useful one, and should be costly. He should have to pay for it rather than just having the GM wave his hands at it and say "He transmits his memories via his shielded communicator and it just happens." Since the means to construct the ability exists within the rules, there's no reason NOT to do it; and having the points spent and recorded on the character sheet adds to the character's point total, which as I suggested in other posts is useful as a general indicator of the villain's potency , if nothing else. I'm all for using "Common Sense Combat Value", as you so eloquently put it, when the situation requires and there's either no other way to handle a situation or no need to expend so much thought worrying about the implications. But why rely on plot devices and GM fiat, when the existing rules can handle the situation just fine?

[Steve Long]

The "HERO System Discussion" board is generally the appropriate one for discussing design philosophy (which is why I've moved this there). However, that's mostly for the fans, since you'll rarely find me answering such questions. They take too much of my time and in the end only cause more problems than they solve.

I disagree entirely that the method I chose for building Mechanon is poorer, or requires more GM fiat, than the method you suggest. I further disagree that the game mechanic doesn't work for the effect I want. If you're so deeply troubled by it, just change his Duplication to provide X Duplicates of his entire body, assume any Mechanon the PCs meet is one of the Dupes, and have the head fly back to join the original. And that's about all I intend to say on the matter.

[innominatus]

That's fine that you "disagree entirely"; however, it still doesn't answer the questions I posed. Now, in the FAQ on this board, it states that the "default" situation when the original version of a Duplicated character is killed, the duplicates would lose the ability to merge back with one another. That being the case, and presupposing the duplicate DOESN'T have hundreds of unspent points handy, how would a lesser duplicate (who didn't pay the points to be an exact copy of the original) regain access to all the powers the original had when the original is a melted heap of slag and is no longer even available to merge with?

Now, I'd like to think that I've presented my case in an organized and rational manner, citing the appropriate rules and precedents where appropriate. And while I realize at this point getting a direct answer from Mr. Long is probably pretty slim (this debate having moved from being a direct question to him to being just another thread in a public forum), can SOMEbody walk me through the mechanics of how Duplication DOES work to achieve the goal we know the designers were trying to achieve? Without invoking "GM Decree" or an arbitrary infusion of hundreds of extra Character Points, and in a way that's supported by the rules as they're spelled out in the books and interpreted in the FAQ section?

[Tom McCarthy]

Well, I preferred the 4th edition Mechanon reconstruction example for power construction (no points, nothing on the character sheet).

While I think Mechanon could have been built multiple ways, the published example does serve to clearly outline how to run the character (in terms of SFX and narrative) so it's a decent example.

There are enough alternative ways to do it, that it may not be worthwhile to debate them.

Mechanon is an AI the players never see, who summons the robotic forms they do fight.
Mechanon is an AI with duplicates which are the forms the characters fight.
Mechanon's self destruct shape changes or multi-forms him into the weaker flying head. maybe the head is the true form and the body is subject to accidental change when it takes too much damage.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, when I first saw this, it struck me as a little odd too. Then I remembered the example "Astral Form" Power from the sidebar on FREd p. 101, which builds the Astral Form as a Desolid Duplicate of the character with the Limitation, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless While Duplicate Exists" (-1). Mechanically, Mechanon detaching his head while leaving his inert body behind is almost identical to this.

Now strictly speaking, you're right in that if the body that has the Duplication Power is destroyed, the head should not be able to recombine. Since you want to set dramatic license aside and find a rules rationale for this :) , I might suggest that since the bodies have that Power, and since Mechanon is supposed to keep spare backup bodies in hidden locations, each spare body would potentially be the base form for that single Duplicated head, with only one body active at a time, so it would still work out.

Note that this version of Mechanon does not have any points listed for bases (the 4E incarnation did), but since he is supposed to have them, I personally would account for these backup bodies as Followers drawn from those additional points, perhaps costed to the head Duplicate directly.

All that being said, my own preference would have been to either use a Multiform for the head, perhaps with a "Leaves Body Behind" Disadvantage, or make the head the base form and the body the Duplicate. The latter option would be much more expensive since the same Limitations wouldn't apply, and not follow the Astral Form precedent as closely. All in all, though, the way Steve did it doesn't really offend my rules sensibilities, and with the addition of the Followers I'd be satisfied with it. Of course, YMMV. :cool:

[Talon]

Originally posted by innominatus
Now, I'd like to think that I've presented my case in an organized and rational manner, citing the appropriate rules and precedents where appropriate. And while I realize at this point getting a direct answer from Mr. Long is probably pretty slim (this debate having moved from being a direct question to him to being just another thread in a public forum), can SOMEbody walk me through the mechanics of how Duplication DOES work to achieve the goal we know the designers were trying to achieve? Without invoking "GM Decree" or an arbitrary infusion of hundreds of extra Character Points, and in a way that's supported by the rules as they're spelled out in the books and interpreted in the FAQ section?

No, because the power technically does not work as written. What Steve is trying to do is encourage people to do some of this "hand waving" in circumstances where strict adherence to the rules isn't necessary (in this case, because a master villain like Mechanon has all the points he needs). This may upset your sense of rules-logic (it does mine!), but that's how Steve has chosen to present things. As he once put it, when you put your life savings on the line to buy the game system, you can do it the way you want. :)

This kind of thing bugs me too...but it's such an improvement over the previous generations of Hero that I'm willing to let it slide. Never in the life of the Hero System has there been such support from the company, not only in terms of supplemental material published but also in the use of the game's rules to appropriately describe the game world.

[innominatus]

All those things you mentioned (the disembodied head is the true form, Mechanon is really an AI located somewhere else and it merely "summons" robots to do its bidding, and so on) are all perfectly valid ideas, and they each would work very well as individual villains writeups; but they're not WHAT WE SEE when we look at Mechanon's character sheet! The fact that all those ways of handling Mechanon's consciousness are possible to build with the rules, yet the designers DIDN'T build them that way, indicates that Mechanon is something OTHER than those ideas -- namely, an individual entity contained within a specific physical body.

In a like vein, there are probably at least a dozen different ways to execute Mechanon's "escape clause" with the existing rules. So I ask: WHY DUPLICATION? What does that specific game mechanic offer that other means (Shape Shift to a detached head and go back to base to Shift back, Summon a new Mechanon to take its place, etc.) don't? How do you get around the fact that, since the original body (the one that had all his attack Multipowers and Strength and stuff) was destroyed, the head can't merge back with it and regain all those abilities again unless he can pony up another 480+ XP's? And how can you do it with JUST THE RULES and without GM fiat, since the other methods I mentioned CAN accomplish the same thing without requiring any arbitrary GM decrees?

[Lord Liaden]

One thing that Duplication accomplishes which Shape Shift would not, is that it allows for Mechanon's head to have a significantly different (in this case, weaker) set of Characteristics and Powers than the whole body/head combination does, without putting "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitations on most of those abilities. This way is definitely cleaner and simpler.

Summoning a new body is no more rules-conforming than this version of Duplication, since there really isn't a provision for the Summoned whatever becoming an extension of the Summoner, and the Summoner effectively ceasing to exist at that point. You'd still have to fudge things to make it work as described.

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
One thing that Duplication accomplishes which Shape Shift would not, is that it allows for Mechanon's head to have a significantly different (in this case, weaker) set of Characteristics and Powers than the whole body/head combination does, without putting "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitations on most of those abilities. This way is definitely cleaner and simpler.

Summoning a new body is no more rules-conforming than this version of Duplication, since there really isn't a provision for the Summoned whatever becoming an extension of the Summoner, and the Summoner effectively ceasing to exist at that point. You'd still have to fudge things to make it work as described.

Well, there IS a new Advantage for Summon that allows you to Summon a specific individual (in this case, an identical Mechanon with all the same memories and personality), and the Summoned being would still be bound to answer the Summoning even if the Summoner is destroyed. It doesn't HAVE to be an "extension" of the original; Mechanon WAS destroyed, and now the automated factory builds a new robot with the same appearance and powers of Mechanon and then downloads Mechanon's programming and recorded memories into it. And since you could make the Trigger for the Summon be "the deactivation of the original", you don't have to ever worry about their being two Mechanons around at the same time.

You might still consider it a BIT of a fudge; although I'd argue it's far less of a fudge than saying, "Suddenly, Mechanon's head spontenously earns 481 Experience Points and is able to buy his body back." And I STILL haven't heard the argument demonstrating that that ISN'T exactly what he'd have to do to get his body back. You can argue that Duplication is "cleaner and simpler"; but you CAN'T argue that it WORKS, because Mechanon's head can't ever get back the powers of the original!

[JmOz]

of all the ideas I have heard I like the idea of a Multiform the best, extra time (only to trasform) with the head being the base form

[Killer Shrike]

Ours is the age which is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to.
Howard Mumford Jones



A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that worked.
John Gall

[Killer Shrike]

Hey, the idea of Summoning a new Mechanon gave me this idea on how to ultimately defeat Mechanon!

Tweak the lab program to create multiples (via an Aid, can add Adders of course), so that instead of 1 Mechanon we have 256 Mechanons! Then, with the judicious application of Bradley's Bromide, Mechanon would never accomplish anything worthwhile ever again!


"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee--that will do them in."
-- Bradley's Bromide

[Arkham]

Or, you could just give Mechanon a base
with a Triggered Resurrection with extra time
only triggers upon the arrival of his Duplicate
head.

The actual character writeup can stay the same,
just with a ( several ) base(s).

[innominatus]

I'd recommend Shapeshift and the "Not Usable in Head Form" Limitation over Multiform, if only because Multiform is meant for characters who change powers AND personality when they transform. For example, a werewolf whose mind becomes more bestial to match his body during a full moon. Mechanon keeps his personality and consciousness; he's just a lot smaller and doesn't have access to his weaponry.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by innominatus
Multiform is meant for characters who change powers AND personality when they transform. Thats not necessarily true at all. Multiform is a mechanic whereby a character may have multiple physically different forms, but only 1 exists at a time. Its just a game mechanic and thats all. If you want to have distinctly different personalities in your different forms, you can do that too, but you dont have to; its a character concept decision.

[SirViss]

I don't have the right book to know the intricacies of Mechanon's Duplication power, but this is what I might do. Use the duplcation as is and give the body the power Teleport with extra-time limitation, which triggers when Duplication is activated. The SFX is that the body "explodes" and is destroyed. How does the he get another body? He has to wait for the extra time on the teleport to lapse to recombine. The SFX of the reconstituted body would be it being rebuilt.

What do you guys think?

Of course, Mechanon should have some bases so that his body could teleport to somewhere safe. :D

[tesuji]

Originally posted by innominatus

The ability to return from the dead the way Mechanon is scripted as being able to do is a valuable and useful one, and should be costly.

Actually, this is the premise where you and i for instance really part the ways.

For a villain, much less a master villain, in a comic to "go out with a bang" and to "somehow appear again in a later issue" is not something potent and costly. It is a story element, a plot device, not a mechanical application that mus be detailed out to the half character point.

What does the self-destruction device do? Does it affect the outcome of the fight in any "did we win or lose" way? Nope, all it does is add a little dramatic kick to the victory.

What does him returning later do? Does it affect how the fight goes for it to be mechanon as opposed to some new threat? yes... by making it more dramatic and personaly,,, but not in any sort of "points balance" way.

Neither of these need to be hashed down to more than, frankly, Steve's own favorite... "dramatic sense"...

Now, as a power for a HERO, thats a whole different story, but thats not what we are discussing here. Then again, if the player wanted the hero to have mechanon's "recurring villain" power, understanding that it meant coming back at some future date, not a nigh on immediate ressurection... he would probably still not be inclined to abuse it, since "no character " sux during those "ressurection in progress" periods.

CSCV... not just for targetting.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by innominatus
The fact that all those ways of handling Mechanon's consciousness are possible to build with the rules, yet the designers DIDN'T build them that way, indicates that Mechanon is something OTHER than those ideas -- namely, an individual entity contained within a specific physical body.


Maybe because somebody decided that that was the way they wanted to do it. That my friend is the glory of Hero. Just because somebody did something a certain way doesn't mean you have to do it the same way in your game :)

[innominatus]

I have no problem with relegating Mechanon's escapes or rebuilds to the realm of plot device -- probably the No. 1 rule in my campaign is "If it would look good on film (or if it's something you'd see in a comic book), you can do it, or at least try it." MY point during this whole discussion is: if you're going to call it a plot device, then DON'T PUT IT ON THE CHARACTER SHEET -- you're the GM; just wave your hands at it and say it happens. And if you ARE going to put it on the character sheet, then for damn sure MAKE SURE IT FOLLOWS THE RULES!

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by innominatus
You might still consider it a BIT of a fudge; although I'd argue it's far less of a fudge than saying, "Suddenly, Mechanon's head spontenously earns 481 Experience Points and is able to buy his body back." And I STILL haven't heard the argument demonstrating that that ISN'T exactly what he'd have to do to get his body back. You can argue that Duplication is "cleaner and simpler"; but you CAN'T argue that it WORKS, because Mechanon's head can't ever get back the powers of the original!

My response to this particular point is covered in my first post on the thread, before the one that you quoted from. :)

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Well, when I first saw this, it struck me as a little odd too. Then I remembered the example "Astral Form" Power from the sidebar on FREd p. 101, which builds the Astral Form as a Desolid Duplicate of the character with the Limitation, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless While Duplicate Exists" (-1). Mechanically, Mechanon detaching his head while leaving his inert body behind is almost identical to this.

Now strictly speaking, you're right in that if the body that has the Duplication Power is destroyed, the head should not be able to recombine. Since you want to set dramatic license aside and find a rules rationale for this :) , I might suggest that since the bodies have that Power, and since Mechanon is supposed to keep spare backup bodies in hidden locations, each spare body would potentially be the base form for that single Duplicated head, with only one body active at a time, so it would still work out.

Note that this version of Mechanon does not have any points listed for bases (the 4E incarnation did), but since he is supposed to have them, I personally would account for these backup bodies as Followers drawn from those additional points, perhaps costed to the head Duplicate directly.

All that being said, my own preference would have been to either use a Multiform for the head, perhaps with a "Leaves Body Behind" Disadvantage, or make the head the base form and the body the Duplicate. The latter option would be much more expensive since the same Limitations wouldn't apply, and not follow the Astral Form precedent as closely. All in all, though, the way Steve did it doesn't really offend my rules sensibilities, and with the addition of the Followers I'd be satisfied with it. Of course, YMMV. :cool:


There's a key difference between the Duplication approach to Astral Form and what Mechanon is doing: the original body is instantly incinerated, and thus the head can never return to it (and reclaim the powers therein) the way an Astral Form could. With Astral Form, it at least makes SOME sense because the character now has two "bodies" that can be hurt -- his physical one and his astral one. The self destruct renders Mechanon's old humanoid body instantly irrelevant; he's not existing in two places at once, and nothing you can do to the self-destructed body can affect the surviving head, so again I ask: WHY DUPLICATION?

As far as your solution for the replacement bodies go...no offense, but it my mind that's an even worse idea than the cheapo Duplicate that magically gets the extra 480 pts. back. The bodies aren't Followers -- they take no actions, and Mechanon has no ability to take control of them and make them merge with the head. They're inanimate objects -- empty vessels waiting for Mechanon's head to attach to them to give them some semblance of life. Now if you wanted to pay for the extra bodies as additional, full-cost Duplicates, and have THEM have the Astral Form's "Helpless and Incapacitated" Limitation (someone could break into Mechanon's lair and trash the extra bodies), THEN you might be on to something...

The Multiform would also be a way to go, but since the abandoned body immediately self-destructs and its doing so doesn't affect the head in any way, I'd invoke the "A Limitation that doesn't limit the power isn't worth anything" clause and say the headless body it's just a special effect for Multiform, not an additional Limitation. Better to re-word the Limitation "Cannot Change Back to Humanoid form except at base".

[Lord Liaden]

Ahh... innominatus, I believe you're operating under a false impression. Mechanon's body is not automatically destroyed when his head is detached. The terms of the Trigger for the self-destruct are, "encrypted radio signal from detached head or base." There's nothing preventing Mechanon from sending his head to scout around in smaller, less obtrusive form, pass through openings too small for the full body, conceal itself to spy on someone, etc. and then reclaim his body at a later time. He can have the full benefits of his Duplicate without losing his main body, should he wish.

Your point about Followers not being appropriate for the reserve bodies is well taken, though. OTOH, that same argument works against your contention that Mechanon should pay for those reserves as Duplicates. By definition of his Duplication, Mechanon can have only one head-body combo functioning at a time; the other bodies are inert until the head can reach and connect with them. So, why should he pay for them? At most they're a plot device to allow Mechanon to escape complete destruction, IMHO something that's well within the realm of story-advancing gimmicks that master villains always seem to have access to. That would be as much "GM hand-waving" as the situation would require.

If you allow that much, the rest of the Power construct falls into place quite well. Each body would have bought enough Duplication to allow for Mechanon's unique head to combine with it, and the Limitation on the Duplication, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless while Duplicate Exists," would indeed leave those bodies vulnerable to being trashed by someone breaking into Mechanon's base, just as you suggest.

You know, the more I consider it, the more I come to believe that this was a pretty good way to write up the effect! :cool:

[JmOz]

What about this:

The head is the main character

The body is a Multiform bought with OIF, then if the Foci is destroyed he has to replace it?

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Ahh... innominatus, I believe you're operating under a false impression. Mechanon's body is not automatically destroyed when his head is detached. The terms of the Trigger for the self-destruct are, "encrypted radio signal from detached head or base." There's nothing preventing Mechanon from sending his head to scout around in smaller, less obtrusive form, pass through openings too small for the full body, conceal itself to spy on someone, etc. and then reclaim his body at a later time. He can have the full benefits of his Duplicate without losing his main body, should he wish.

........

If you allow that much, the rest of the Power construct falls into place quite well. Each body would have bought enough Duplication to allow for Mechanon's unique head to combine with it, and the Limitation on the Duplication, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless while Duplicate Exists," would indeed leave those bodies vulnerable to being trashed by someone breaking into Mechanon's base, just as you suggest.

You know, the more I consider it, the more I come to believe that this was a pretty good way to write up the effect! :cool:

1.) Actually, I HAD considered the possibility that Mechanon might voluntarily separate his head for reasons other than escape. However, I have trouble imagining that he would voluntarily leave himself vulnerable that way, especially since, if he wanted to speak around or spy on people, he can now simply Summon some specialized robots and gather information through them via Mind Link. And even if you DID decide that such an action would be "in character" for Mechanon, then you'd simply re-word the -1/4 Limitation to the Shape Shift or Multiform to "Can Only change back to 'full humanoid' form when a functioning body is available" -- if he hid his body in the broom closet, he just goes and plugs back in; otherwise, the head flies back to base and has a new one built.

2.) There's no provision in the rules for allowing one character with Duplication to "adopt" a second character's duplicates and allow the second character's duplicates to merge with the first character, regardless of how identical the second character may be to the first (interesting though the possibility might be!) And besides that, it was Mr. Long's assertion that his build of the power using Duplication was legal and did not require any GM fiat or other bending of the rules to accomplish. And to date NO ONE has offered an explanation (nay, even TRIED to defend the claim) how Mechanon could get his body (and all the powers and abilities therein) back when the original is destroyed and the head never paid the points to have available all those attack Multipowers and such.

And in response to your letter, Tesuji, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have NO problem with resorting to pure plot device to make Mechanon's escape happen. But then don't put the power on the character sheet and insist it's a valid and legal way to simulate the effect when the rules clearly state the power doesn't work the way you're convinced it OUGHT to...

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by innominatus
2.) There's no provision in the rules for allowing one character with Duplication to "adopt" a second character's duplicates and allow the second character's duplicates to merge with the first character, regardless of how identical the second character may be to the first (interesting though the possibility might be!) And besides that, it was Mr. Long's assertion that his build of the power using Duplication was legal and did not require any GM fiat or other bending of the rules to accomplish. And to date NO ONE has offered an explanation (nay, even TRIED to defend the claim) how Mechanon could get his body (and all the powers and abilities therein) back when the original is destroyed and the head never paid the points to have available all those attack Multipowers and such.

With all due respect, I do defend the claim, and I did offer an explanation. Mechanon doesn't lose his original body, because the special effect of the original body is that it has backups with the same capacity to accept his head as their Duplicate. I don't see that as one character "adopting" the Duplicate of another. Each body identical, only one of them ever functioning at one time = one character with one Duplicate. The rest is just SFX IMHO.

I'm not saying that other ways to build this effect couldn't work, and might even work "better" depending on what you want, but this discussion has convinced me that the way it's done in Mechanon's writeup is legal, appropriate and mechanically sound. You can of course disagree with my interpretation, innominatus, but I can't agree with your assertion that this method is wrong according to the rules. :(

[Vanguard]

Ok .. the only thing I'm going to say here is this (and I really probably should just keep my trap shut) . . .

Innominatus, what is it EXACTLY that you want? If it's some kind of rules clarification or something then why don't you ask it?

Basically, as I see it, Mechanon (and all the master villians) where given a "character sheet" as sort of a starting point. Something for the individual GM's to take a look at and go ... "Oh" and then work from there. From one of your last posts, it almost sounds like you would've been more happy if Steve would've just posted a list of Master Villians and said "Here you go".

If the write up for Mechanon strikes a nerve or seems wrong to you, change it to something you like and can live with. But like several people have said, Mechanon is a master villian and by definition, doesn't need points or .. like ALL the NPC's in a game world .. they have as many points as they need to do what they need to do.

Like I said, I *think* the reason we have write ups for bad guys like Mechanon and Dr. D are a starting point or a "guideline". Just a place to start and to add things here and there or tweak as needed.

I hope this doesn't sound like a personal attack, it's not ment as one ..

Anyway .. just my 2 cents.

[innominatus]

What do *I* want? Well, to paraphrase Sam Jackson in "Pulp Fiction", "This was a bad power writeup, and I want Steve Long to forking ACKNOWLEDGE IT!!!"

But seriously, folks...

If you look wa-a-a-ay back to the beginning of the post in the "Rules Questions" forum, I did simply start looking for a rules clarificiation. In essence I said, "In the book you wrote up Mechanon's power *this* way. I understand the result you want to achieve, but the rules would seem to disallow it because of thus-and-so. Is there something I'm missing, or could the effect be better simulated *this* way?" Mr. Long's response, when you boiled it down, amounted to, "Yeah-huh, it DOES SO work!" [Then he fails to explain away the discrepenancy, or how the rules don't REALLY contradict what he's doing.) And finally, he finishes off with (essentially), "My idea is just as good as yours. I don't have to justify myself to you. I'm taking my toys and going home."

This will be the third time I've said it now, but I understand that master villains can be built with however many points you need to make them do what you want. I also understand that there are SOME things that can't adequately be simulated strictly by the rules and that "GM's Prerogative" has to be invoked. But you can't slap a poorly thought-out game mechanic on the character sheet that doesn't work when you apply the actual rules to it, and then claim the moral high ground by saying you built the power the "legal" and "official" way, even though it would still take a GM decree to FORCE the power to work the way you intend it to.

Vanguard, I agree with you completely that "canned" characters are a starting point, not a finishing point. In 17 years of playing Champions I have YET to use a published villain right "out of the box", simply because they have some sort of rules gaffe like this, or they wouldn't fit in well in my campaign style, or whatever. I mainly look to them for inspiration, to find some seed of an idea or some creative use of the game mechanics I haven't thought of before. But if I *already* have a better grasp of the rules than the guys in charge at HERO, and if THIS was the best they could come up with for interpreting a neat power like this, what do I need them for? And why should I send any of my hard-earned dollars their way?

But getting back to your original question, of what I want? I'd be happy for an explanation, from ANYONE, about how the original write-up for the power makes sense and is legal by a reasonable interpretation of the rules (as Mr. Long insists it is). So far, nobody in the ENTIRE gaming community who reads and posts here has either been willing or able to step up to the plate and defend that position. Either that, or have the folks at Hero acknowledge that maybe they DIDN'T consider all the ramifications of building the power this particular way, and that they'll look into fixing it (either by turning the ability back into a strict plot device or rebuilding the power in a way that actually works according to the rules) for the next printing or big revision or for similar future characters or whatever. With that, I would be satisfied.

[Monolith]

In Editions 1 through 4 Mechanon's "Return to Life" was a plot device. In 5th Edition Mechanon's head can escape allowing its "Return to Life" to have more feasibility as a plot device. Now instead of Mechanon shooting radio brainwaves to a new body it puts its old head on a new body. Either way it is still nothing more than a plot device, only in 5th Edition it has some point cost associated with it.

I really never understood certain people's needs to keep pounding a point into the ground when it ultimately always comes down to each GM making their own interpretations and justifications of the rules to make them fit within their own campaign worlds. I am always amazed that a game which has 10 or more different ways to do everything constantly gets so many gamers saying "I'm right, you're wrong" all the time.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by innominatus
I'd be happy for an explanation, from ANYONE, about how the original write-up for the power makes sense and is legal by a reasonable interpretation of the rules (as Mr. Long insists it is). So far, nobody in the ENTIRE gaming community who reads and posts here has either been willing or able to step up to the plate and defend that position.

Do I have the Disadvantage, "Only Invisible to innominatus"? :rolleyes: Once again, look above Vanguard's post. I defend Steve's position, I do say in so many words that it makes sense and is a legal and reasonable interpretation of the rules, and I explain why in that post and the one I made before it. I respect your right to disagree with me, but please stop categorizing Steve's position as completely undefended.

[innominatus]

The "need" stems from the fact that we're all playing the same game here. There's a certain groundwork of assumptions that everyone here has to be familiar with and more-or-less agree upon (i.e.; The Rules). If we all remained isolated within our own gaming groups, then it wouldn't matter so much if some folks wanted to diverge from the rules in varying degrees. But there is intermingling between groups -- players drop out of groups and join new ones, we congregate for conventions, and so on. And if we're not all operating under the same set of assumptions, then the system breaks down and we're back to playing "Cowboys and Indians" like when we were kids ("BANG! BANG! I got you, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh, I got YOU, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh!" "Yeah-huh!" And so on...)

Mr. Long's writeup of Mechanon's power would appear to represent a radical departure from how Duplication works according to the rules. Now if he was allowing Mechanon to escape strictly by means of a plot device, then he's free to do as he wills -- it's his campaign, and there's no rules governing the use and abuse of plot devices. But he chose NOT to go the route of GM fiat; he used the RULES to achieve the effect. And the rules contradict what he described, and so far nobody has been able to explain how it doesn't. Which means either Mr. Long was WRONG for doing what he did and the character needs to be amended; or the rules need to be amended and clarified to show how he was RIGHT all along -- because so far the consensus has been that the power isn't legal, which means that (if Mr. Long is right) that the majority of us here are misunderstanding the rules and playing incorrectly.

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Do I have the Disadvantage, "Only Invisible to innominatus"? :rolleyes: Once again, look above Vanguard's post. I defend Steve's position, I do say in so many words that it makes sense and is a legal and reasonable interpretation of the rules, and I explain why in that post and the one I made before it. I respect your right to disagree with me, but please stop categorizing Steve's position as completely undefended.

The problem is, there's no provision in the rules for Duplication allowing more than one "original" (i.e.; a form that Duplicates can merge back into). It clearly states in the FAQ that, once the original has been killed off, any duplicates that have been formed would be unable to merge back with one another and go back to being a single entity without the original. So you're back to combining a game mechanic with a plot device in order to make the effect work. Plus, if you're assuming that the head detaching is Mechanon spawning a lesser Duplicate, then that means the body that just self-destructed was the original (because ONLY the original can spawn duplicates), so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

[tesuji]

Just FYI... the below is not a NEED i have ever seen in play in a game of HERo. HERo us at its core utterly dependent on the GM to make the rules work FOR HIM. HERO is not really a game but rather a game design system. It is intrinsically the job of the GM to pick and choose from among the myriad implementations of the rules, the inumerable "nuances" (a term utterly weak when considering the impact of these "nuances") involved with the campaign itself.

How tight a grouping is required for ECs? IS magical fire appropriate or is "helpful witcheries"?

How broad a VPP should be allowed?

Are "normals" allowed to have stats above 30? Above 20? Above 40?

How are foci broken? How long does it take to replace them?

How long does it take to replace charges? is "i run by the base for more ammo" valid?

How long ar the combats?

When can i use naked advantages?

Do i really have to buy "fighting arrays" using the officially preferred method which charges more for them than just buying the dex straight up would?

These all come into play well before we start talking about campaign limits and ocvs and speed and so on.

The rules we play by are the rules set by the Gm for his game. The rules rely so heavily on the GM to "enforce" the balance aspects that they are practically meaningless without the perspective of "the GM".

Whether a new player comes into my group with HERo experience or not, the first lesson to be learned is" you are playing my hero, not Steve Long's. not monolith's, not your last GM."

If thats not acceptable to them, thats cool. I will show them out and suggest other GMs in the area they can try and find.





Originally posted by innominatus
The "need" stems from the fact that we're all playing the same game here. There's a certain groundwork of assumptions that everyone here has to be familiar with and more-or-less agree upon (i.e.; The Rules). If we all remained isolated within our own gaming groups, then it wouldn't matter so much if some folks wanted to diverge from the rules in varying degrees. But there is intermingling between groups -- players drop out of groups and join new ones, we congregate for conventions, and so on. And if we're not all operating under the same set of assumptions, then the system breaks down and we're back to playing "Cowboys and Indians" like when we were kids ("BANG! BANG! I got you, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh, I got YOU, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh!" "Yeah-huh!" And so on...)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by innominatus
The "need" stems from the fact that we're all playing the same game here. There's a certain groundwork of assumptions that everyone here has to be familiar with and more-or-less agree upon (i.e.; The Rules).
As Tesuji has already stated, there are no real rules for the HERO System. There are only rules which each GM wishes to use and change for his own game. We all play HERO, but we all play it slightly different because we all have different needs from the game system. That makes each game unique. HERO is not d20, and we do not all follow the same general guidelines.

I would also like to point out that you are somehow combining two different abilities to reach your wrong conclusion. Mechanon's ability to detach his head is just that, as Lord Liaden pointed out many posts back. Mechanon can use the head for a number of different effects. It is not just a failsafe or reason to blow up the body. Mechanon has Regeneration, and the head could detach for the simple effect of luring the heroes away from the body while it has time to mend.

Also, Mechanon's write-up does not say you must have the head for a new Mechanon to be born. The writeup just says that the head can escape if it so chooses. The write-up also says if the head cannot escape Mechanon can still transmit his brainwaves and data to a new Mechanon waiting somewhere to be "born."

Detachable head makes for "spy" Mechanon and makes for an interesting visual, but it is not linked to Mechanon's ability to be reborn. That is still the same plot device which it has always been. So Mechanon's head flies to a closest base, transmits all its data to a new Mechanon and then dies. It is no different than it was in 1st through 4th Edition. You are the only one who seems to be confusing this.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by innominatus
so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

Is that's what's bothering you? So, Mechanon's lost a boatload of points and has to "earn" them back? Big deal.

That's what makes him take time to return. He's got to earn back 480 points of stuff.

If you were to use a different type of Duplication (total, only when original killed, yadda yadda), then you have to remember to take into consideration that it takes Mechanon time to reform.

That amount of time is dependant on GM/Plot considerations, in the published case, that's how long it takes Mechanon to earn those EPs.

___

And, perhaps it's a 4th edition bias, but I never got the impression that the body was the important part.

Just like in 4th edition, the most expensive form pays for the Duplicate/Multiform. IIRC, that's one of the things people howled about when 5th came out--you could have 350 point multiform guy spend pretty much all of that on his "duplicate".

So, Rather than listening to people complain, Steve put the head as a duplicate of the body, and not the other way around.

You could do it the other way. Probably makes more sense. But, from a Game Balance standpoint, well, it's point whoring of a high order.

D

[Killer Shrike]

<table><tr><td bgcolor="Black"><font color="gold">
innominatus: You can do another 5 pages of 'Im right, and anyone who doesnt agree with me is wrong' but in the end its not going to get any of us anywhere productive.


I have an idea: instead of back and forthing over it, write up your version of Mechanon (Mechanon-Innominatus) and post it here with your 'more correct' Self Destruct mechanism.



Let it stand or fall on its own merits. Those who prefer it can then adopt it, those who dont can safely ignore it.



It makes for less argument, and is productive rather than antagonistic.

YMMV</font></td></tr></table>

[innominatus]

I've NEVER said that I'm right to the exclusion of everybody else's ideas. I've agreed that the Multiform option was just as good as my own Shape Shift suggestion; and though I never mentioned it in the forum, I also think the "Triggered Resurrection" and "Teleport" options other people have suggested have potential as well. What I *DID* say is "The rules don't seem to support the 'Single Lesser Duplicate' method because there's no provision for Mechanon getting his body (and powers) back once he gets back to base; what am I missing from this construction method that would allow it to BE right?" The most recent remark of Mechanon having to wait a while to gain back the points "off-camera" is possible, but just doesn't pass the "smell test" in my book -- my head is filled visions of Mechanon-Head flying around mugging little old ladies 'til he can save up the cash and accumulate the experience to afford a new body. And Monolith: we already touched upon the notion of Mechanon using the Duplication for things other than escape some time ago -- can we agree we've already established we're discussing its original, intended use (as described in the "Powers/Tactics" section of Mechanon's writeup) of avoiding Mechanon's final demise?

That having been said, I accept your challenge to "build a better Mechanon", Killer Shrike. Or at least, to build a better escape mechanism. I'll say up front that it'll be a day or two before I can devote a large enough block of time to hash it all out (the wife and baby get first dibs on my free time); but I'll present my results, in as many different ways as I can come up with to simulate the effect, so that everyone can discuss the relative merits and shortcomings.

[Lord Liaden]

I fear we may be approaching the interpretative impasse beyond which reasoned discourse may not tread. ;) Nonetheless, I think I can add a bit more to the discussion:


Originally posted by innominatus
The problem is, there's no provision in the rules for Duplication allowing more than one "original" (i.e.; a form that Duplicates can merge back into). It clearly states in the FAQ that, once the original has been killed off, any duplicates that have been formed would be unable to merge back with one another and go back to being a single entity without the original. So you're back to combining a game mechanic with a plot device in order to make the effect work. Plus, if you're assuming that the head detaching is Mechanon spawning a lesser Duplicate, then that means the body that just self-destructed was the original (because ONLY the original can spawn duplicates), so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

Here's the statement from the FAQ:

Q. What happens if a character is Duplicated, and then original character is killed?

A. That typically depends on the special effects of the Duplication, but as a default rule, this means the duplicates lose the ability to combine back together; they just become a group of characters whose "creator" no longer exists.

The FAQ "clearly" places the emphasis on the special effects involved, which may trump the default rule. The entry in FREd regarding Duplication and character death does not specifically say that Duplicates are unable to recombine after the Base Form has been killed: "If a Duplicate or the base character is killed, the others cannot revive him by recombining - he stays dead; the character has lost a part of himself." So, it isn't really possible to refute writing up Mechanon's ability as Duplication by citing the letter of the rules - they don't support that position.

As I indicated, I'm persuaded that the special effects in this case allow this mechanic. Mechanon's extra bodies have no impact on the game unless and until the head combines with them, which would only happen as a last-ditch survival tactic, so IMO they don't need to be payed for as Duplicates or anything else. (Ironically it was innominatus' point refuting buying extra bodies as Followers which convinced me of that.) All of them are the same, and they have all payed the points for the same Duplicate, but because only one Duplicate head exists only one such body can be active at a time. Effectively, there is only one Mechanon that the players have to face, having one body which is the Base Form and one Duplicate. The self-destruct device is more of an "eliminate the evidence" device, a way to charge Mechanon an appropriate amount for the useful ability to destroy discarded bodies that the heroes could examine to learn Mechanon's secrets.

As for the benefits of doing it this way rather than one of the other possibilities: as I said before, I personally would favor Multiform with a "Leaves Body Behind" Limitation, but this is now more of an esthetic preference. Either that or Duplication allows for the detachable head and inert body, with the head's stats being different from the body's, without the complication of adding a "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitation to many Characteristics and Powers. It's more cost-effective for the more expensive body to be the Base Form for the Duplicate head rather than the other way around, and IMO the SFX are good enough that the head doesn't need to be the base form to allow it to combine with a new body.

Of course YMMV, and I completely respect anyone's right to do so in a reasoned manner. Now, having presented my case as logically and eloquently as I can, I shall gracefully quite the field. :)

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I fear we may be approaching the interpretative impasse beyond which reasoned discourse may not tread. ;) Nonetheless, I think I can add a bit more to the discussion:

As I indicated, I'm persuaded that the special effects in this case allow this mechanic. Mechanon's extra bodies have no impact on the game unless and until the head combines with them, which would only happen as a last-ditch survival tactic, so IMO they don't need to be payed for as Duplicates or anything else. (Ironically it was innominatus' point refuting buying extra bodies as Followers which convinced me of that.) All of them are the same, and they have all payed the points for the same Duplicate, but because only one Duplicate head exists only one such body can be active at a time. Effectively, there is only one Mechanon that the players have to face, having one body which is the Base Form and one Duplicate. The self-destruct device is more of an "eliminate the evidence" device, a way to charge Mechanon an appropriate amount for the useful ability to destroy discarded bodies that the heroes could examine to learn Mechanon's secrets.

As for the benefits of doing it this way rather than one of the other possibilities: as I said before, I personally would favor Multiform with a "Leaves Body Behind" Limitation, but this is now more of an esthetic preference. Either that or Duplication allows for the detachable head and inert body, with the head's stats being different from the body's, without the complication of adding a "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitation to many Characteristics and Powers. It's more cost-effective for the more expensive body to be the Base Form for the Duplicate head rather than the other way around, and IMO the SFX are good enough that the head doesn't need to be the base form to allow it to combine with a new body.

Of course YMMV, and I completely respect anyone's right to do so in a reasoned manner. Now, having presented my case as logically and eloquently as I can, I shall gracefully quite the field. :)

Grrr...I was hoping my next post here would be my own take on Mechanon's escape power, but I really feel this needs to be responded to...

Let's assume that the GM agrees the special effect of Mechanon's Duplication is such that he allows the remaining duplicates to recombine (and why wouldn't he, since the GM is you?) ;) The fact remains that, AS THE CHARACTER IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK, once Mechanon separates his head and triggers the Self Destruct, Mechanon ONLY HAS ONE DUPLICATE LEFT, and it's only the lesser-powered head version. I agree completely that your solution would work fine if Mechanon had paid for other full-power duplicates; but HE DIDN'T, and Long's claim was that the Mechanon's little stunt would work EXACTLY AS WRITTEN AND WITHOUT ANY ASSUMPTIONS OR "GM FIATS"! Now you can argue the clause in the writeup that states that "as a master villain, Mechanon should have whatever Bases, Followers, and Vehicles he needs". (Although frankly, that's ANOTHER thing that bugs me about this writeup; other published villains have listed on their sheets a 'pool' of points ear-marked for Bases and such, and not doing so for Mechanon seems extremely incongruous.) However:

1.) There's no mention of having access to as many extra points as needed to restore powers lost when the original Mechanon self-destructs, or as many extra Duplicates as he might require (if they went to the trouble of recording ONE down in the writeup, how much more effort would it be to add a couple of zeroes after it?); and

2.) As anyone new to the HERO system who wanted to go shopping for flashlights can tell you, IF YOU DON'T PAY CHARACTER POINTS FOR IT, YOU DON'T GET IT!!!

(Takes a deep breath)....OK....now I'm going to try to stay away from this thread entirely 'til I have my version of Mechanon finished....

[Old Man]

Originally posted by innominatus
The problem is, there's no provision in the rules for Duplication allowing more than one "original" (i.e.; a form that Duplicates can merge back into). It clearly states in the FAQ that, once the original has been killed off, any duplicates that have been formed would be unable to merge back with one another and go back to being a single entity without the original. So you're back to combining a game mechanic with a plot device in order to make the effect work. Plus, if you're assuming that the head detaching is Mechanon spawning a lesser Duplicate, then that means the body that just self-destructed was the original (because ONLY the original can spawn duplicates), so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

You are completely missing the point. The Mechanon that heroes have been blasting )or getting blasted by as the case may be) is NOT the original. The original is in a base someplace spawning new Mechanon bodies. Why risk himself when he can send out Duplicates?

[Old Man]

Originally posted by innominatus


(Takes a deep breath)....OK....now I'm going to try to stay away from this thread entirely 'til I have my version of Mechanon finished....

Which is what you had the option of doing from the first place. Like I said, if you don't like it, don't use it. Being a player in your campaign must be hard when no changes can ever be made to the charaqcters over time.

I think other folks are avoiding this thread because you come off sounding like a jerk.

[caris]

Originally posted by innominatus
and Long's claim was that the Mechanon's little stunt would work EXACTLY AS WRITTEN AND WITHOUT ANY ASSUMPTIONS OR "GM FIATS"!

I'm sorry, but I don't quite see that as what Steve said. The relevant comments by Steve seems to be:


Originally posted by Steve Long
I disagree entirely that the method I chose for building Mechanon is poorer, or requires more GM fiat, than the method you suggest. I further disagree that the game mechanic doesn't work for the effect I want. If you're so deeply troubled by it, just change his Duplication to provide X Duplicates of his entire body, assume any Mechanon the PCs meet is one of the Dupes, and have the head fly back to join the original. And that's about all I intend to say on the matter.

Steve doesn't state that the power as not requiring any GM fiat. He simply states that your method would take as much GM fiat in his oppinion. Steve also says that the mechanic does match the effect that he is attempting to acomplish. It is your assumption that Steve intended the head defined as a duplicate was intended to model Mechanon's ability to come back again and again, that the head was built and intended to be an "escape clause". While that method is listed as one of the options that Mechanon would use to escape. It is clearly not the only one. The power itself is not labled as "Escape Clause", but as "Detachable Head". Perhaps Steve had intended that to be just another interesting ability of Mechanon, based on something that he had seen a similar character do in a comic book, and not as the point justification for Mechanon's reappearance. Perhaps, he had intended the head thing when used in the way you are describing to be nothing more than just a special effect of the plot device.

[Killer Shrike]

Mechanon = Ultron in my mind. How many Adamantium bodies did Ultron manage to make? You know, that 'rare' metal that no one knows how to make?

Hmm....Writer Fiat? Plot Device?

Thats Mechanons deal. He cant die unless the GM doesnt want him around anymore, which is consistent with the genre.

Pointed, not pointed, who cares?

Its story driven, not point driven.....

[tesuji]

Originally posted by innominatus


2.) As anyone new to the HERO system who wanted to go shopping for flashlights can tell you, IF YOU DON'T PAY CHARACTER POINTS FOR IT, YOU DON'T GET IT!!!


i'm sorry, but i really have to ask, cause this sounds as throwback hero as if someone were railing on the nightly news about how everyone knows leeches help draw the evil spirits from the blood of sick people.

Somewhere between 3rd-4th-5th i thought HERo did get away from the "quest for a flashlight" stages where your wristwacth had to be purchased and your condoms had to be paid for with cp... "do i buy the IIF/F Immunity to sexually transmitted diseases 1 charge lasting 1 hour or do i add in the ribbed for your pleasure model with +1 to seduction roll or do i go for another +1 ocv with my spear?" and most GMs get beyond the point of "no you cannot go to KMART until you have enough experience saved up to buy the flashlight. Do you want to spend Xp on the condoms or not?"

shudder!

next thing you know phlogiston will be hailed as the next great power source.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by tesuji
next thing you know phlogiston will be hailed as the next great power source.

I knew there was something I forgot to add to the "Miracle Materials" thread!

[innominatus]

I believe it was Killer Shrike who suggested that, if I thought I knew a better way to create Mechanon's "escape clause" powers, I should step up to the plate and present it to the forum for discussion. Here's my initial workup for the character; I've tried to design Mechanon so he could do what is described in his writeup, while requiring as few "fudges", "GM's discretions" or other bendings of the rules. I don't know if everything I have will fit in a single posting; if not, I'll include a second post immediately after this where I'll point out the major departures from the published version, and why I did it that way:

MECHANON - Base Form (as Disembodied Head)

0 STR -10
24 DEX 42
40 CON 60
5 BODY -10
30 INT 20
15 EGO 10
20 PRE 10
6 COM -2
30 PD 30
30 ED 22
7 SPD 36
8 REC 0
90 END 5
45 STUN 20

Total: 233

15 Hardened for PD & ED
37 30 PD 30 ED Hardened Damage Resistance
15 15 pts. Mental Defense
12 12 pts. Power Defense
10 10 pts. Sight Flash Defense
45 Total Life Support
82 20" Flight, x16 NCM, 0 END (+1/2)
44 IR & UV Vision, 360 Degree, x1000 Microscopic, +6 Telescopic
15 Active Sonar
3 Ultrasonic Hearing
12 High Range Radio Perception
15 Radar
12 +4 to all PER Rolls
21 Mind Link w/8 Minds, No LOS Needed, Fully Invisible (+1/2), Only vs. Others w/ Mind Link (-1), Flashed by Radio & Hearing, Not Mental (-1/2)
12 Detect Broadcast Spectrum 15-, 360 Degrees, Transmit
32 4d6 RKA, NND (not vs. ED Force Field, +1), Does BODY (+1), Trigger (Encrypted Signal, +1/4), Self Only (-1), 1 Non-Recoverable Charge (-4)
76 Multiform: 1 Extra Form - 1417 pt. Humanoid, Instant Change, Trigger (coded radio signal, +1/4), 0 DCV Concentration (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), Can only change from head back to humanoid form when an appropriate robot chassis is available (-1/4)
75 Summon Improved Mechanon Head (1259 pt. Character), Trigger (coded radio signal, +1/4), 0 DCV Concentration (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), Side Effects (see below, -1/4)
32 Absolute Range, Absolute Time Sense, Absolute Direction, Lightning Calculator, Universal Translator
30 3 Overall Levels
20 +4 DCV
13 AK: Earth 25-
3 Combat Driving 14-
3 Combat Piloting 14-
3 Computer Programming 15-
3 Cryptography 15-
3 Deduction 15-
3 Demolitions 15-
3 Electronics 15-
3 Inventor 15-
3 Lockpicking 14-
3 Mechanics 15-
3 Security Systems 15-
3 Stealth 14-
3 Systems Operation 15-
3 Scientist
16 Sciences (all 15-): Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, Geology, Nuclear Physics, Physics, Robotics
300 Points for Bases, Followers, Vehicles

200+ Disadvantages
20 Hunted by Champions 11-
15 Hunted by UNTIL 8-
20 Phys. Lim.: No Manipulatory Limbs
15 Phys. Lim.: Small Size
25 Psych. Lim.: Must Destroy all Organic Life
20 Psych. Lim.: Overconfident
20 Reputation: Supervillain, 14- (Extreme)
20 X2 STUN from Magnetic, Force, or Gravitic Attacks
864 Experience


MECHANON - Humanoid Form (provided by Multiform)

60 STR 50
24 DEX 42
40 CON 60
20 BODY 20
30 INT 20
15 EGO 10
40 PRE 30
6 COM -2
30 PD 18
30 ED 22
7 SPD 36
20 REC 0
90 END 5
90 STUN 20

Total: 331

90 90 pt. Multipower
9 1.) 18d6 EB
9 2.) 12d6 EB, 0 END (+1/2)
9 3.) 9d6 EB, Autofire (+1/2), 1/2 END (+1/2)
9 4.) 12d6 EB, Armor Piercing (+1/2)
9 5.) 9d6 EB, Area Effect (5" Radius, +1)
9 6.) 8d6 NND (not vs. Mental Defense or Inorganics, +1), 1/2 END (+1/4)
9 7.) 4d6 RKA, Armor Piercing (+1/2)
9 8.) 4d6 RKA, 0 END (+1/2)
9 9.) 12d6 Mind Control vs. Machines only, 0 END (+1/2)
4 10.) Summon 4-150 pt. Robots, Slasvishly Loyal, OIF Parts (-1/2), Full Phase (-1/2)
60 60 pt. Multipower
6 1.) 4d6 DEX Drain, Ranged (+1/2)
6 2.) 4d6 STR Drain, Ranged (+1/2)
4 3.) 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 8 Shots (-1/2)
4 4.) 6d6 Flash vs. Sight Group, Area (7" Cone, +1), No Range (-1/2)
15 Hardened for PD & ED
37 30 PD 30 ED Hardened Damage Resistance
15 15 pts. Mental Defense
12 12 pts. Power Defense
10 10 pts. Sight Flash Defense
45 Total Life Support
17 3d6 Healing (Regeneration, 3 BODY/Hr.), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Per Hour (-2)
82 20" Flight, x16 NCM, 0 END (+1/2)
12 +6" Running (12" total)
44 IR & UV Vision, 360 Degree, x1000 Microscopic, +6 Telescopic
15 Active Sonar
3 Ultrasonic Hearing
12 High Range Radio Perception
15 Radar
12 +4 to all PER Rolls
21 Mind Link w/8 Minds, No LOS Needed, Fully Invisible (+1/2), Only vs. Others w/ Mind Link (-1), Flashed by Radio & Hearing, Not Mental (-1/2)
12 Detect Broadcast Spectrum 15-, 360 Degrees, Transmit
32 Absolute Range, Absolute Time Sense, Absolute Direction, Lightning Calculator, Universal Translator
30 3 Overall Levels
20 +4 DCV
13 AK: Earth 25-
3 Combat Driving 14-
3 Combat Piloting 14-
3 Computer Programming 15-
3 Cryptography 15-
3 Deduction 15-
3 Demolitions 15-
3 Electronics 15-
3 Inventor 15-
3 Lockpicking 14-
3 Mechanics 15-
3 Security Systems 15-
3 Stealth 14-
3 Systems Operation 15-
3 Scientist
16 Sciences (all 15-): Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, Geology, Nuclear Physics, Physics, Robotics
300 Points for Bases, Followers, Vehicles

200+ Disadvantages
20 Hunted by Champions 11-
15 Hunted by UNTIL 8-
25 Psych. Lim.: Must Destroy all Organic Life
20 Psych. Lim.: Overconfident
20 Reputation: Supervillain, 14- (Extreme)
20 X2 STUN from Magnetic, Force, or Gravitic Attacks
1097 Experience

OK, now that that's over and done with, let me explain how my version of Mechanon differs from the one in the Champions sourcebook:

1.) Before we get to the good stuff, let me note that I've allocated 300 pts. for the GM to spend on Bases, Vehicles, Followers and the like. I don't like things being as nebulous as "he has whatever he needs" if it can be helped. This is enough for Mechanon to afford the Space Base from the Champions sourcebook, a vehicle (not an armored battlewagon, just a speedy transport for getting from place to place, and he and his minions can do their own fighting) and a dozen or more servant robots (built on 400 pts. each) to take care of minor tasks for Mechanon and to be served up to the heroes as an appetizer before the big fight. You'll note that both versions of Mechanon paid the points for the bases and such, so he has access to his gear in either form and to show I'm not trying to cheat anything.

2.) I'm presupposing that Mechanon only uses the detachable head gimmick to flee destruction; it doesn't seem "in character" to me for him to separate himself from his weaponry to that degree, especially when he can create (i.e.; Summon) specialized "helper" robots to do his snooping for him. If you want him to detach at will, you can do that in YOUR writeup you submit for criticism...

3.) After giving it some thought, I went ahead and used Multiform to let Mechanon transform from his humanoid form to just a disembodied head. Trying Shape Shift would've saved some points on his stats and Multipowers, but it created too many problems with his Physical Limitations appearing and disappearing depending on his state, as well as some other stuff. Thanks to whoever suggested that route. Since the head is what endures from encounter to encounter, I made it the "base" form, rather than the full humanoid version. When Mechanon shows up for the fight, he'll generally be in humanoid form with the Trigger to switch to bodiless head already prepared in advance. When things go badly, Mechanon activates the Trigger and detaches from his body. I considered the self-destruct on the body to be just a "freebie" -- since Mechanon's body could have just as easily been absorbed into the head when he activates the Multiform, nobody could get at it to study his technology anyway, so you can just as easily say it gets completely destroyed as a special effect of the Multiform. Once Mechanon has transformed, the head has to get back to his base and have his automated factory assemble a new chassis for him (Game Mechanic: Set Up and Activate the Multiform again to switch him back to Humanoid form) and take the precaution of updating and backing up his personality and memory files (re-set the Trigger so he'll be able to detach his head from the new body). Since the whole process takes two hours, it might make for an intersting scenario for the heroes to defeat Mechanon, then search feverishly to locate his hidden base and race there before the process is complete so they might have a chance to rid the world of Mechanon once and for all...

4.) Something that was always relegated to the realm of Plot Device was: What if the head gets destroyed before it can escape to its base? Up until now this required some generous hand-waving by the GM; but I believe I may have a workable solution: a Triggered Summon. If the head is destroyed, with its last bit of power it sends a coded signal back to the base, reporting all that it can about its latest defeat before going offline. The automated factory whirrs to life and downloads the information to a new head (Game Mechanic: the Summon takes effect), which then directs the factory to start assembling a new chassis (preparing and activating the Multiform to humanoid mode, and then re-setting the Trigger to switch back to "head" mode to escape). And then finally, Mechanon orders the factory to prepare a new positronic brain on the off chance that this latest head is deactivated (Game Mechanic: he re-sets the Triggered Summon).
But there are a couple of twists to this process! First, you'll note that the Summoned Mechanon head isn't particularly loyal to the old Mechanon, as you might have expected hm to be. Two reasons for this: 1.) Since the old Mechanon is dead, there's no one left to be devoted to, and 2.) if the new Mechanon was TOO loyal, he might be tempted to continue carrying out the plans of its predecessor, which would likely lead him to making the same mistakes over and being defeated again and again. The new Mechanon will decide to make a fresh start of it and try a new plan for wiping out all organic life.
The second twist is much more important, however. You'll note that the Summon power is for an "Improved Mechanon Head" worth 1259 pts., while the original head is worth only 1219. In older published versions of the character, it said that whenever Mechanon was defeated, it would improve upon its own design to guard against whatever weakness was exposed, so he could never be defeated the same way twice. Up until now, this meant the GM would just GIVE Mechanon extra points to make him more challenging. But now, it's all done LEGALLY and strictly by GAME MECHANICS. The new Mechanon will have an additional 40 pts. to play with -- enough for a couple of new Multipower slots customized to exploit the weaknesses of whoever defeated him, plus maybe a little specialized defense if he needs it (Hearing Flash Defense if someone busted out a Sonic NND on him, or whatever). Plus he'll needs to spend about 2 more points to improve the Multiform so the humanoid version has the same upgrades, and an extra couple of points on the new head's Summon so that the next incarnation of Mechanon will have ANOTHER 40 points to improve himself if he gets defeated again. In fact, even if the head manages to escape back to base to be rebuilt, Mechanon might STILL decide to have his current head declared obsolete and scrap it so he can be rebuilt with whatever new modifications he's come up with...
So why doesn't Mechanon scrap-and-rebuild himself indefinitely, gaining 40 pts. each time until he's omnipotent? Ah....THAT'S where the "Side Effects" on the power comes in -- plus, it makes a great plot device for GM's. How the Side Effect works is, each time a new Mechanon is Summoned, you'd roll an Activation roll (I'd probably set it at 15 or less). If the roll fails, then....SOMEthing amiss happens during the assembly and downloading process. Maybe noise in the signal garbles Mechanon's prime directives, and he decides to "assimilate" all organic life, Borg-style, rather than wipe it out. Maybe the little switch on the back of his head gets flipped from "Evil" to "Good" and he decides to protect humanity, like Peace-Keeper from Sanctuary. Maybe he'll decide it's enough to evacuate all life from the planet so he can have Earth to himself, and proceeds to evict humanity en masse to some other place! The possibilities are limitless, but since Mechanon is so devoted to his goal of wiping out all life, he won't destroy himself willy-nilly and risk some failure or glitch altering him in a way that might prevent him from carrying out his mission.

The floor is now open to coments and criticism...

[Tom McCarthy]

Well, innominatus, I think your writeup is quite complete and polished. For myself (quite familiar with HERO and Mechanon), it seems like a good writeup. For game mechanics purists, it has aspects where it is superior to the published example.

I would have qualms about including it in Champions as an example of character construction for beginning players, though. It's a very unusual character construct (suitable for a unique and major bad guy) which is too extreme for the 'character building guideleines' aspect of a genre book like Champions.

[Talon]

&lt;Devil's Advocate&gt;

1. The Summon summons a specific being, which is banned in the rules.

2. He has to define the creature being Summoned when the Trigger is set, so the improvements can't be in response to whatever killed him.

&lt;/Devil's Advocate&gt;

Looks good to me.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
&lt;Devil's Advocate&gt;

1. The Summon summons a specific being, which is banned in the rules.

2. He has to define the creature being Summoned when the Trigger is set, so the improvements can't be in response to whatever killed him.

&lt;/Devil's Advocate&gt;

Looks good to me.

Actually, there is now a Stopsign Advantage to Summon (+1) allowing a particular individual to be Summoned, usually only after said being is deceased - which is essentially the case here. ;) Your second point is valid, though, but I have a suggestion for that below.

This is a pretty fine job of accounting for everything, innominatus. I can see the Limitations you've taken defining the Multiform for purposes of it being a last-ditch escape only, but the one complication with this is that according to the description of Multiform, the damage taken by one form is carried over to the next, so if Mechanon's body were actually destroyed in combat, the head would be too. The rules do allow for you to distribute the damage proportionately, but you'd best make sure Mechanon decides to detach his head before his body, well, loses all its Body.

Since you've allowed for points for a Base, and since Mechanon's base systems would be building a new body for him, it would be a significant saving for the character to build the Summoning of the new body into the base itself, rather than as part of the character's Powers. If the base has a computer or AI which could evaluate the data regarding Mechanon's defeat, and construct the new body accordingly, that would deal with the Trigger concerns which Geoff Speare raised. Either way, you would need an Expanded Class Advantage on Summon to allow for the resulting Mechanon body to be tailored accordingly.

[JmOz]

My version of Mech goes like this (note I will not be posting Stats:


Character is an AI Computer with Duplication (1 extra body)

If I wanted the head to still come off, I would build it as a Multiform with a OIF lim (Robotic Body), then Maybe include a large RKA w/Explosion, 1 charge, yada yada, and Trigger

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
This is a pretty fine job of accounting for everything, innominatus. I can see the Limitations you've taken defining the Multiform for purposes of it being a last-ditch escape only, but the one complication with this is that according to the description of Multiform, the damage taken by one form is carried over to the next, so if Mechanon's body were actually destroyed in combat, the head would be too. The rules do allow for you to distribute the damage proportionately, but you'd best make sure Mechanon decides to detach his head before his body, well, loses all its Body.


Actually, the same would apply for Duplication as well -- the head would also start with the same amount of damage and (unless you use the optional "proportional damage" rule) the head would actually be in worse shape than the whole body form. At least, I think it would. The FAQ mentioned something about reversing the process of averaging the STUN and such of Duplicates when they recombine, so I suppose the head would start with half the damage of the humanoid form.

I was debating whether I should add the "Specific Individual" Advantage to the Summon -- after all, Mechanon's supposed to have a number of extra positronic brains in storage, and the version Summoned is different from the original since it's more powerful. You're summoning *A* Mechanon Head, not *THE* Mechanon head. It just happens to be programmed with a similar skill set and personality (unless the Side Effects kick in).

As far as not being able to retroactively modify the new chassis to compensate for whatever weakness was uncovered in the last fight....I wonder: could the Summoned Mechanon head have left those extra 40 points he was assigned UNSPENT, and THEN make the necessary modifications to himself? Making the Base the means for the Summon is also certainly an option, but I didn't want to get too specific as to what the base would be equipped with, since everybody would stock it with different things based on what Mechanon's latest scheme was...

[innominatus]

I don't know that my version of Mechanon is THAT much more complicated, Tom. In a combat situation, the only thing that really changes is the shift from Duplication to Multiform. Now when the head detaches, he has a Full Phase available instead of a Half Phase. And as far as the reassembly of the body goes, it's very easy to sum it up to beginning GM's: "If the head escapes and makes it back to base, Mechanon will roll off the assembly line as good as new in two hours. If the head gets destroyed, the rebuild begins at the instant of his death and it'll take three hours, at which point he'll be even BETTER than before!"

By the way, thanks one and all for the comments and feedback so far. I know my interpretation of the powers isn't perfect for everybody's campaign (although no problems have arisen yet that there wasn't already an in-game solution so far), but hopefully I've been able to demonstrate my larger point: namely, that with all the game mechanics options available in 5th Edition, there's fewer and fewer reasons for GM's to resort to plot devices to achieve their goals. At the risk of sounding like my grandfather, it was different back in the days of 2nd and 3rd Edition (for those of us who were around and remember it), when we often didn't have a choice but to wave our hands at a problem and say, "It just happens." But if all the improvements to the system in the last decade, in my mind there's no reason not to at least TRY a game-mechanic solution first, unless you're pressed for time, you're lacking in imagination, or just feeling lazy.

Uh, oh.....generation gap...catching up with me....age...taking over....

"Oy, you kids don't know how good you got it these days! SKILLS?!?! When I was your age we didn't have skills! All we could do was fight! And we were THANKFUL, dammit!!!

:D

[Tom McCarthy]

Generation gap ? That is kind of funny. I may be a Johnny come lately around here, having only started to play HERO back in '89 with 4th edition, but I am older than you, innominatus.

And as I expected, my comment that it seemed slightly more complicated than a standard introductory character was a matter of personal taste, and our tastes differ.

[Old Man]

There's a bunch of us that are older than he is ;)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
There's a bunch of us that are older than he is ;)
Well Im not; you are all a bunch of decrepit old fogeys compared to me; why, Im not even quite 30 yet ;)


Nice write up innominatus; it changed a pointless argumentative thread into a cool addition to the game thread.

BTW, do you happen to have the character file to post?

;)

[Killer Shrike]

On the subject of birthdays, and apropos of nothing, when looking to see how pathetically aged you all are, I noticed that tsejui and Geoff Speare were both born on December 31, 1969. I find that to be freakishly coincidental and highly unlikely. Therefore, I am going to assume that they are the same person.

Nice job, keeping us all thinking you are 2 people, but it was bound to fall through eventually. True, one of your alter egos wears glasses and the other doesnt but that trick is played out.....

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by innominatus
"Oy, you kids don't know how good you got it these days! SKILLS?!?! When I was your age we didn't have skills! All we could do was fight! And we were THANKFUL, dammit!!!

:D

Fight? You could fight!? Why, in MY day we never had a chance to fight! In my day there were twelve-foot giants runnin' around, and they stomped us into the ground with jack-boots with cleats in 'em, and all we could do was spray 'em with our own blood and hope that they picked up one of the diseases from the puss and gangrene that infested our open putrid sores!

AND WE LIKED IT!

[lemming]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
On the subject of birthdays, and apropos of nothing, when looking to see how pathetically aged you all are, I noticed that tsejui and Geoff Speare were both born on December 31, 1969. I find that to be freakishly coincidental and highly unlikely. Therefore, I am going to assume that they are the same person.
You should note that a lot of people have that as their birthday. Something probably to do with the date field not wanting to deal with negative numbers is my guess. Though, the birthday is still noted correctly when it comes up.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by lemming
You should note that a lot of people have that as their birthday. Something probably to do with the date field not wanting to deal with negative numbers is my guess. Though, the birthday is still noted correctly when it comes up. Or...more likely they are all really the same person, obviously.

Duplication and Multiform are both much cheaper in 5th, so its obviously either 1 person with many forms or 1 form with many bodies.

[Talon]

Note to self: Shrike knows too much...

[tesuji]

We are not the same people. I am not me nor is he him. We are absolutely two distinct individuals, no matter whay the shrinks say. What do they know anyway.

***************

FWIW... i think the notion that my age is significant to be somehow factored into unacceptable negative numbers is more perturbing to me than the thought that someone has discovered our secret.

Its kind of how all those "born in BC" guys must have felt when the younger "AD" crowd looked at them as geezers...

"Man you are sooo old they report your age in a negative number!!!"

I would make a Logan's Run reference but... the irony is that we are approaching or have passed the point where anyone who saw and remembers Logan's run is probably past 30 years old.

sigh...