Really BIG Write-Ups...

[Dr. Anomaly]

What with Star Hero and The Ulitmate Vehicle now out (and the expaned Size tables for vehicles) I'm considering, just for fun, doing a write-up of the Skylark of Valeron.

Anyone else planning any really BIG write-ups?

[Agent Escafarc]

I don't have UV yet and I don't know how big the Skylark of Valeron is. But I'm planning one day :) to write up the ships of the Honorverse.

[Dr. Anomaly]

The Skylark of Valeron is from a series by E. E. "Doc" Smith (also creator of the Lensman series). She was the biggest "built" ship I can recall (i.e. not a converted asteroid or something) and was 1000km in diameter. Despite that ridiculous tonnage, she had the power-to-mass ratio of a speedster and could traverse vast intergalactic distances in mere days...and the amount of firepower and defenses she packed made many galactic-wide civilizations look underarmed by comparison.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
The Skylark of Valeron is from a series by E. E. "Doc" Smith (also creator of the Lensman series). She was the biggest "built" ship I can recall (i.e. not a converted asteroid or something) and was 1000km in diameter. Despite that ridiculous tonnage, she had the power-to-mass ratio of a speedster and could traverse vast intergalactic distances in mere days...and the amount of firepower and defenses she packed made many galactic-wide civilizations look underarmed by comparison.

Great! But I want to see the schematic. :D

[Dr. Anomaly]

Yeah? Well, I'd like to see one, as well! :)

Have you actually read the books in question? If not, I'll say that all we ever see of the interior of this monster is (1) the multiple layers of kilometer-thick airlock doors leading to the innermost chamber and (2) said innermost chamber which was the size of, and had the look & feel of, a small park. The park contained 3 houses and a small control room building, as well.

We're told the 1 cubic km of Brain that runs the thing is "underground" in relation to the houses, but we never see it once the ship has been constructed. (The Brain was built first, then the ship was materialized around it.)

Other than that, all we're told in the books is that the main sixth-order drive engines, main power plants, shield generators, etc. are within a spherical area about 100 km in diameter that makes up the core of the vessel. We know this because at one point, the Valeron is hit with such an attack that she gets mostly vaporized -- peeled like an onion -- by such strong forces that the creator has to re-tune the shield generators to protect only the vital 'interior' instead of protecting the whole vessel. Only with the supposedly invincible screens doing a 200x overlap over a much smaller area does the core of the ship survive the attack and escape.

[By the way, if you're not familiar with "Doc" Smith's over-the-top style and love of synonyms for 'huge' or 'gigantic', the end of this particular series will illustrate it quite nicely. Determining that the antisocial race that runs the galaxy which nearly destroyed his vessel has GOT to go (it's a threat to all humanity everywhere, y'see) the creator of the Valeron with some help from notable allies and one major enemy, destroys said enemy galaxy. Yes, the galaxy. Actually, he destroys two galaxies, because he uses the stars from one galaxy as ammunition to destroy the stars in the enemy galaxy. (He picks a star in the enemy galaxy, determines its direction and velocity; picks a like-sized star from the 'ammunition' galaxy with a diametrically-opposed velocity, and flips the 'ammunition' star through the 4th Dimension so it reappears in the path of the enemy star. Splat, Kaboom: super-super-super nova. Wash, rinse, repeat. Since nearly every star in the enemy galaxy had a planet of the enemy around it, pretty much every star gets destroyed.]

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Yeah? Well, I'd like to see one, as well! :)

Have you actually read the books in question? If not, I'll say that all we ever see of the interior of this monster is (1) the multiple layers of kilometer-thick airlock doors leading to the innermost chamber and (2) said innermost chamber which was the size of, and had the look & feel of, a small park. The park contained 3 houses and a small control room building, as well.

We're told the 1 cubic km of Brain that runs the thing is "underground" in relation to the houses, but we never see it once the ship has been constructed. (The Brain was built first, then the ship was materialized around it.)

Other than that, all we're told in the books is that the main sixth-order drive engines, main power plants, shield generators, etc. are within a spherical area about 100 km in diameter that makes up the core of the vessel. We know this because at one point, the Valeron is hit with such an attack that she gets mostly vaporized -- peeled like an onion -- by such strong forces that the creator has to re-tune the shield generators to protect only the vital 'interior' instead of protecting the whole vessel. Only with the supposedly invincible screens doing a 200x overlap over a much smaller area does the core of the ship survive the attack and escape.

[By the way, if you're not familiar with "Doc" Smith's over-the-top style and love of synonyms for 'huge' or 'gigantic', the end of this particular series will illustrate it quite nicely. Determining that the antisocial race that runs the galaxy which nearly destroyed his vessel has GOT to go (it's a threat to all humanity everywhere, y'see) the creator of the Valeron with some help from notable allies and one major enemy, destroys said enemy galaxy. Yes, the galaxy. Actually, he destroys two galaxies, because he uses the stars from one galaxy as ammunition to destroy the stars in the enemy galaxy. (He picks a star in the enemy galaxy, determines its direction and velocity; picks a like-sized star from the 'ammunition' galaxy with a diametrically-opposed velocity, and flips the 'ammunition' star through the 4th Dimension so it reappears in the path of the enemy star. Splat, Kaboom: super-super-super nova. Wash, rinse, repeat. Since nearly every star in the enemy galaxy had a planet of the enemy around it, pretty much every star gets destroyed.]

Wow! How many points for that Teleport?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Remember -- it'd be Teleport Usable As an Attack, too. Points = uh...ouch?

Actually, if you're actually gonna pay points for it, it'd make more sense to buy it as a really, really, big RKA with loads of MegaRange (intergalactic) and MegaArea (volume of a large star), Expendable OIF ('ammunition' star).

STILL more points than I really wanna think about, tho...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Remember -- it'd be Teleport Usable As an Attack, too. Points = uh...ouch?

Actually, if you're actually gonna pay points for it, it'd make more sense to buy it as a really, really, big RKA with loads of MegaRange (intergalactic) and MegaArea (volume of a large star), Expendable OIF ('ammunition' star).

STILL more points than I really wanna think about, tho...

I am sure that somebody out there will try to build it on 250, whoops! make that 350 points. ;)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I am sure that somebody out there will try to build it on 250, whoops! make that 350 points. ;)

Hey, I once built a nuclear bomb on 5 real points, 4 if you decided to make it independent. ;)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I am sure that somebody out there will try to build it on 250, whoops! make that 350 points. ;)

1 pip major transform galaxy to random mass of energy
nonstandard autofire (+1.5)
5.5 trillion shots (+20)
area effect (+1)
69 doublings (+17.25) (roughly 1 galaxy in radius) (did not use megascale because I didn't want too large of a drift from misses)
0 end (+1)
does knockback double knockback (+1)

+41.75 total in advantages. 214 active points.

OAF (-1) Immobile (-1) 5 minutes to activate (-2)

43 real points.

This attack transforms a galaxy into a random mass of energy. 5.5 trillion body should do the trick. Even if it doesn't, 11 trillion inches of knockback is pretty lethal. :D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
1 pip major transform galaxy to random mass of energy
nonstandard autofire (+1.5)
5.5 trillion shots (+20)
area effect (+1)
69 doublings (+17.25) (roughly 1 galaxy in radius) (did not use megascale because I didn't want too large of a drift from misses)
0 end (+1)
does knockback double knockback (+1)

+41.75 total in advantages. 214 active points.

OAF (-1) Immobile (-1) 5 minutes to activate (-2)

43 real points.

This attack transforms a galaxy into a random mass of energy. 5.5 trillion body should do the trick. Even if it doesn't, 11 trillion inches of knockback is pretty lethal. :D
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Gary
1 pip major transform galaxy to random mass of energy
nonstandard autofire (+1.5)
5.5 trillion shots (+20)
area effect (+1)
69 doublings (+17.25) (roughly 1 galaxy in radius) (did not use megascale because I didn't want too large of a drift from misses)
0 end (+1)
does knockback double knockback (+1)

+41.75 total in advantages. 214 active points.

OAF (-1) Immobile (-1) 5 minutes to activate (-2)

43 real points.

This attack transforms a galaxy into a random mass of energy. 5.5 trillion body should do the trick. Even if it doesn't, 11 trillion inches of knockback is pretty lethal. :D

You scare me :)

But since its a Transformation, what's the 'common' defense/recovery?

Aroooo

[Gary]

Originally posted by Aroooo
You scare me :)

But since its a Transformation, what's the 'common' defense/recovery?

Aroooo

Considering that the galaxy has to heal 5.5 trillion body, I think it's safe to say that in that period of time, the random mass of energy has coalesced into a new galaxy. ;)

[Dr. Anomaly]

That is the FUNNIEST thing I have read in some time! My hat's off to you! :cool: :D

[Dr. Anomaly]

Oh, yeah, is that "5 minutes to activate" for *each* shot? If so, it's gonna take a while to transform the galaxy. If not, it needs a longer set-up time (it took them a couple of weeks in the book to set up the baselines, etc. for the 4th-D trajectories, using star clusters on opposite sides of the target galaxy as "anchors" from which to work).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Oh, yeah, is that "5 minutes to activate" for *each* shot? If so, it's gonna take a while to transform the galaxy. If not, it needs a longer set-up time (it took them a couple of weeks in the book to set up the baselines, etc. for the 4th-D trajectories, using star clusters on opposite sides of the target galaxy as "anchors" from which to work).

It's autofire, so it happens all at once.

If you want to save points, you can change the limitations to:

OAF (-1)
Immobile (-1)
1 Month delay (-5)
Must make skill roll (-1/2)

Real cost 25 points. :)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Yeah, baby! :cool:

But I don't think I'll be able to get the Valeron herself anywhere NEAR that cheap...apart from the defensive screens, etc. (which it took the combined output of over 1,000 worlds to overcome) she's constructed of inoson: "a synthetic metal that is as toughest and resiliant as is possible to any substance that has a molecular or atomic structure." I.E. you simply *can't* have *any* material that is stronger, tougher, etc.

That's gotta be like 100 rPD / 100 rED, x64 Hardened, at least...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Yeah, baby! :cool:

But I don't think I'll be able to get the Valeron herself anywhere NEAR that cheap...apart from the defensive screens, etc. (which it took the combined output of over 1,000 worlds to overcome) she's constructed of inoson: "a synthetic metal that is as toughest and resiliant as is possible to any substance that has a molecular or atomic structure." I.E. you simply *can't* have *any* material that is stronger, tougher, etc.

That's gotta be like 100 rPD / 100 rED, x64 Hardened, at least...

Don't forget Damage Reduction 75% for its sheer size. :D

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Gary
1 pip major transform galaxy to random mass of energy
nonstandard autofire (+1.5)
5.5 trillion shots (+20)
area effect (+1)
69 doublings (+17.25) (roughly 1 galaxy in radius) (did not use megascale because I didn't want too large of a drift from misses)
0 end (+1)
does knockback double knockback (+1)

+41.75 total in advantages. 214 active points.

OAF (-1) Immobile (-1) 5 minutes to activate (-2)

43 real points.

This attack transforms a galaxy into a random mass of energy. 5.5 trillion body should do the trick. Even if it doesn't, 11 trillion inches of knockback is pretty lethal. :D

I fear you :eek:

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Yeah, baby! :cool:

But I don't think I'll be able to get the Valeron herself anywhere NEAR that cheap...apart from the defensive screens, etc. (which it took the combined output of over 1,000 worlds to overcome) she's constructed of inoson: "a synthetic metal that is as toughest and resiliant as is possible to any substance that has a molecular or atomic structure." I.E. you simply *can't* have *any* material that is stronger, tougher, etc.

That's gotta be like 100 rPD / 100 rED, x64 Hardened, at least...

I'm sure you can do it if you try hard enough. All you have to do is build it in sections and have all the sections fit together. Each section can be individually cheap, but every 5 points you spend gives you double the number. Spending 100 points on doublings gets you 1,000,000+ sections... :)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Hmmmm... a nice idea, but...

1) The Size of the vehicle will be bought just once

2) The Armor/DEF of the vehicle will be bought just once

3) The Movement of the vehicle only gets bought once for each type of movement

So at least a few of the really expensive things gotta be bought "as is."

[Syberdwarf2]

But wouldn't firing stars at another star in a galaxy, whether at once or one at a time lead to making objects so incredibly massive that black hole of incredible proportions would be created? I shudder to think of all that mass adding up to increase gravity over and over and over again.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Not really. Mass has to be REALLY concentrated before it will collapse into a singularity. If you look at the Main Sequence, 80%+ of the stars in the average galaxy are less than 2 solar masses anyway, which is well outside Chandresarker's Limit.

Besides, if you hurl two fast-moving hot stars head-to-head, when they hit most of the kinetic energy gets turned into heat -- heat which has no place to go, so it causes a runaway fusion reaction in the outer layers of the stars, instead of in the cores where it belongs. Result: a really BIG boom.

[Syberdwarf2]

Here's a scary thought;
What if you had a whole fleet of these ships, each armed with lots of these autofiring 'Star Cannons', firing simultaneously?
Bet that'd put a damper on your day.:rolleyes:

[Dr. Anomaly]

You looking to wipe out a whole galactic cluster or supercluster? Geez... :rolleyes:

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
You looking to wipe out a whole galactic cluster or supercluster? Geez... :rolleyes:

naw, just the Local Group.
mwahahahaha

[Dr. Anomaly]

The Local Group IS a galactic cluster -- albeit a small one, but a galactic cluster none the less. :)

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
The Local Group IS a galactic cluster -- albeit a small one, but a galactic cluster none the less. :)

I know, I was just tryin to start on somthing small. Then I'll work up to something really big.

[AlHazred]

I say, target the local Multiversal Supercluster... I guess by adding Transdimensional on the power...

Anyway, on the topic of large starships, I'm considering building Sector Twelve General Hospital from the Sector General series. Not quite that big, but a damn sight bigger than most...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Sector Twelve General Hospital is more of a BASE than a SHIP, isn't it? I don't recall it having any movement capability at all -- which is why when the war happened, they had to evac the personnel instead of moving the hospital.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

The Ringworld meteor defense can be used as a photon drive.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Oh ho! That reminds me!

For the ultimate in large-scale constructed objects, what about Cuckoo from Farthest Star and Wall Around A Star ?

It was, after all, a vehicle!

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Sector Twelve General Hospital is more of a BASE than a SHIP, isn't it? I don't recall it having any movement capability at all -- which is why when the war happened, they had to evac the personnel instead of moving the hospital.

Yup. But since vehicles and bases have so many rules in common, I'm interested to see how the big object plays out. If you're going to be a stickler, I'll have to model the Valley Forge from Silent Running (http://shipofdreams.net/sfmovies/silent.htm).

[JSenecal]

Big as it was, the Skylark of Valeron was mostly just a hollow shell to hold the directional circles to accuratly point at something at vast intergalactic distances.

The biggest ship I've ever seen was a short story "Kerplop" in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. That ship was 6000 miles in diameter, and was filled with decks and people. In fact the crew of that ship was roughly equal to the population of the rest of human explored space.

But besides being big, it didn't have impresive capabilities. It could accelerate and decelerate from 0 to the speed of light and back to 0 again instantly. It was a generation ship built to explore the magelian clouds, and it was finally comming home. You see, in this world Einstein was right about the the speed of light being the ultimate speed limit, but was wrong about the time dialation effect.

It was a fun story. I especially like the part where the inspector of incoming ships is on his way the where the ship is due to apear (it sent word ahead). Actually he was heading 1 mile away from that spot... Which he realizes in time is nowhere near far enough.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I know the Valeron had to be that big just to hold the circles -- but I do NOT think it was just a hollow sphere otherwise. Remember the description of when the Chlorans of galaxy DW-4U-whatever are burning her down to size? DuQuesne sees her burned, blasted, and peeled away, layer by layer, like an onion. No "Oh, the outer shell is gone, suddenly we've got the little core."

Plus, at the beginning of that book, when the Seaton/Crane party are coming on board, the transit throught the many miles-thick airlock doors is described. At no point does Skylark II transit any empty space between the skin and the inner core.

:)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by JSenecal
The biggest ship I've ever seen was a short story "Kerplop" in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. That ship was 6000 miles in diameter, and was filled with decks and people. In fact the crew of that ship was roughly equal to the population of the rest of human explored space.

The thing I mentioned earlier, Cuckoo (or Object Lambda if you insist) was also a ship -- a sort of 'ark' to escape a galaxy that was blowing itself apart.

Cuckoo was around 180 million MILES in diameter. :eek:

[JSenecal]

The thing I mentioned earlier, Cuckoo (or Object Lambda if you insist) was also a ship -- a sort of 'ark' to escape a galaxy that was blowing itself apart.

Cuckoo was around 180 million MILES in diameter.

OK, that's MUCH bigger. But was it inhabited though out it's volume, or was it mostly hollow shell?

What story does Cuckoo show up in?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Cuckoo is in two novels by Fredrick Pohl and Jack Williamson: Farthest Star and Wall Around A Star.

No, it was not inhabited throughout its entire volume. It was, indeed, mostly hollow shell a few tens of km thick, surrounding empty space with a type F sun at the center for power & drive plasma.

Basically it was a mobile Dyson sphere but was never intended to be inhabited. The "crew" were in cold sleep, or were stored as templates that could be grown into crystalline forms when necessary.

It WAS inhabited, though, on the outer surface -- by the descendants of those from its home galaxy who hadn't been selected to be saved who had managed to latch on to the surface, and descendants of lifeforms from OUR galaxy (its target) which had been sent back by advance scout ships.

The surface was habitable because it had a very thick atmosphere built up from eons of gathered cosmic gases & outflow losses from the interior. The surface was warmed by heat leaking through from the inside rather than from an orbiting sun. Light came from continent-sized "clouds" of bioluminescent single-celled organisms.

Oh, and it had a surface gravity of 1/1000 g. :)

[JSenecal]

Cuckoo is in two novels by Fredrick Pohl and Jack Williamson: Farthest Star and Wall Around A Star.


Thanks! I recognize the authors as ones I like, but somehow missed those stories. I'll try finding them next time I'm in a book store.

Kerplop also had a problem with low gravity, due to it's low density. I think it was .2g at the surface, fading down to 0 at the core.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Those books are a number of years old now, so you might have better luck with Amazon, Half.com, or a used book store.

The reason Cuckoo has such a low gravity is that 99.99% of the mass of the thing is in the star at the center -- and at a radial distance of about 90 million miles, even the mass of a star only exerts the equivalent of about 1/1000 g. :)

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Cuckoo is in two novels by Fredrick Pohl and Jack Williamson: Farthest Star and Wall Around A Star.

No, it was not inhabited throughout its entire volume. It was, indeed, mostly hollow shell a few tens of km thick, surrounding empty space with a type F sun at the center for power & drive plasma.

Basically it was a mobile Dyson sphere but was never intended to be inhabited. The "crew" were in cold sleep, or were stored as templates that could be grown into crystalline forms when necessary.

It WAS inhabited, though, on the outer surface -- by the descendants of those from its home galaxy who hadn't been selected to be saved who had managed to latch on to the surface, and descendants of lifeforms from OUR galaxy (its target) which had been sent back by advance scout ships.

The surface was habitable because it had a very thick atmosphere built up from eons of gathered cosmic gases & outflow losses from the interior. The surface was warmed by heat leaking through from the inside rather than from an orbiting sun. Light came from continent-sized "clouds" of bioluminescent single-celled organisms.

Oh, and it had a surface gravity of 1/1000 g. :)

I remember Wall Around a Star. Not impressed.
IIRC, it wasn't really steered, which bring up the question of whether it was a vehicle, or a base that someone sent zooming off.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Well, it moved under its own power -- and it was slowing down as it approached our galaxy. There was at each pole what was essentiall a giant rocket thrust outlet. If it's capable of moving itself, I'd say that tends to make it a vehicle.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Hmmm...speaking of BIG things...there's the multiply-nested Dyson spheres from Colin Knapp's "Cageworld" series -- though that construct would definitely be a *base*, not a vehicle.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Hmmm...speaking of BIG things...there's the multiply-nested Dyson spheres from Colin Knapp's "Cageworld" series -- though that construct would definitely be a *base*, not a vehicle.

Colin Knapp. I haven't heard that name for a long time. I wonder how you would build the Chaos Weapon? :)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Oy! That thing had a number of stellar-mass black holes rolling around inside a "cage" to act as the focusing agent, IIRC, and they fed it entire stars as fuel!

As for the effect -- a really, Really, REALLY overpowered Change Environment...?

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Well, it moved under its own power -- and it was slowing down as it approached our galaxy. There was at each pole what was essentiall a giant rocket thrust outlet. If it's capable of moving itself, I'd say that tends to make it a vehicle.

Ah. Yeah, that's a vehicle. ;)
OK, I'd forgotten it was being moved around.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Hmmmm... a nice idea, but...

1) The Size of the vehicle will be bought just once

2) The Armor/DEF of the vehicle will be bought just once

3) The Movement of the vehicle only gets bought once for each type of movement

So at least a few of the really expensive things gotta be bought "as is."

Nah. You can buy each piece with Armor, Movement, and Always On Growth, all Usable By Others. :)

[Dr. Anomaly]

That won't make it any cheaper, though, points-wise. It will in fact make it more expensive!

(The regular way)

Vehicle Size + Def = cost

(Buy it as you suggested)

Vehicle Size + Def for 1 piece = cost
Advantages so other parts of vehicle share it = cost * advantages

See?

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
That won't make it any cheaper, though, points-wise. It will in fact make it more expensive!

(The regular way)

Vehicle Size + Def = cost

(Buy it as you suggested)

Vehicle Size + Def for 1 piece = cost
Advantages so other parts of vehicle share it = cost * advantages

See?

Umm... no.

Don't buy 100" of Flight. Have a piece buy 5" of Flight, Usable by Others. Then double the number of pieces by spending 5 points. Do it a bunch of times. Point savings ensue.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Umm... no.

Don't buy 100" of Flight. Have a piece buy 5" of Flight, Usable by Others. Then double the number of pieces by spending 5 points. Do it a bunch of times. Point savings ensue.

One problem with this approach is that a tiny area effect drain or suppress is going to zap the entire Death Star unless you buy oodles of power defense.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Gary
One problem with this approach is that a tiny area effect drain or suppress is going to zap the entire Death Star unless you buy oodles of power defense.

2 points Power Defense, Usable by Others.

Problem solved. :)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy
2 points Power Defense, Usable by Others.

Problem solved. :)

I could suggest something completely cheesy such as a nnd drain of power defense followed by a 1 dex rank, time delay, linked, life support suppress, but I'd better quit while I'm behind. ;)