Would you allow <blank> in your game?

[sbarron]

Would you allow Spider-man in your game?

Not me. Right about the time I saw...

45 STR
35 DEX
8 SPD

I would have started hitting the player with ReFred...HARD!!! ;) Talk about a munchkined build...

[Fox1]

Would you allow Spider-man in your game?

Not me. Right about the time I saw...

45 STR
35 DEX
8 SPD

I would have started hitting the player with ReFred...HARD!!! ;) Talk about a munchkined build...

In mine, he's a 60 STR (custom STR chart in my house rules), 35 DEX and 8 SPD.

Of course he's been used in the game. All depends on who he's adventuring with/against now doesn't it?

I will note that solo runs are the most fun as would be expected with this character's personality.

[TheQuestionMan]

No problem as long as he's within the Campaign CharacterCreation Guidelines.

What are his Resistant Defenses like?

Are you forgetting Area Effect Attacks?

Spreading Energy Blasts, Swinging Cars, etc...?

Cheers

QM

[Agent X]

Spidey would be okay in a game where other Marvel/DC style characters are running about. If I think he'll contribute without stealing the show - no problem.

[nexus]

Would you allow Spider-man in your game?

Not me. Right about the time I saw...

45 STR
35 DEX
8 SPD

I would have started hitting the player with ReFred...HARD!!! ;) Talk about a munchkined build...

Depends on the game and concept. In my (as yet unrestarted) Seeds of Chance, I've got a couple of character with ability scores like that. In Redwood Academy, not so much.

[lemming]

No problem from my end of things. Though the player has to be fast enough to play an eight speed.

[GoldenAge]

The 8 SPEED is a little over the top for my campaign.

To be realistic, I don't remember seeing Spider-Man attacking too many more times than his average combatant. I think his "speed" in combat is best reflected by his high DEX (he goes first and is really hard to hit). I'd knock his SPEED down to 6 and tell the player to creatively manage the SPEED Chart to mimic Spider-Man's occasional quick attacks (hold your 10 Action and go on 11 and then first on 12).

Although Spider-Man's STR is often subject to the will of his writer I've never known him (in a classic sense) to be able to lift more than a car... with effort. That would place his STR closer to 30 or 35.

With a 45 STR your version of Spider-man can lift a jet fighter over his head. That's too strong.

So..


30-35 STR
30-35 DEX (My DEX max is 30 for martial artists and like characters only. But Spider-Man is a special case)
6 SPD

Just my opinion :cheers:

[Agent X]

The 8 SPEED is a little over the top for my campaign.

To be realistic, I don't remember seeing Spider-Man attacking too many more times than his average combatant. I think his "speed" in combat is best reflected by his high DEX (he goes first and is really hard to hit). I'd knock his SPEED down to 6 and tell the player to creatively manage the SPEED Chart to mimic Spider-Man's occasional quick attacks (hold your 10 Action and go on 11 and then first on 12).

Although Spider-Man's STR is often subject to the will of his writer I've never known him (in a classic sense) to be able to lift more than a car... with effort. That would place his STR closer to 30 or 35.

With a 45 STR your version of Spider-man can lift a jet fighter over his head. That's too strong.

So..


30-35 STR
30-35 DEX (My DEX max is 30 for martial artists and like characters only. But Spider-Man is a special case)
6 SPD

Just my opinion :cheers: I think he holds and dodges a lot. A speed 8 seems appropriate to me.

[Supreme Serpent]

While I doubt this is really a serious question...

It depends on the game - what the guidelines and point totals are, and what the other PC's can do.

Would I let a 700pt Spider-Man build into a 400pt game? Of course not. Would I let a 400pt build designed to capture the basic feel of the character in? Sure. If I've got 30 Dex, Speed 6 martial artists running around throwing 12d6, a 35 dex, speed 8 guy throwing 9d6 isn't a major balance problem. Throw in "spider-man martial arts", high defenses or damage reduction ("spidey's tough"), entangles larger than normal campaign attacks, etc etc etc and then you've got a problem. There are some games Thor is appropriate to. There are also some games where Robin, the Boy Wonder would be overpowered.

[GoldenAge]

I think he holds and dodges a lot. A speed 8 seems appropriate to me.
Dodge continues all the way up until your next action... I don't think you need an 8 for that.

At SPEED 6 an abort of any action will give him 3 phases of dodge and his 35 DEX will almost always assure he goes first his next action.

But Dodge really isn't necessary with a 35 DEX. That gives him a 12 DCV (rounding up cuz he's a hero). Add to that any HTH skill levels and he can be assumed to be "dodging" by simply utilizing his superior DCV. Why abort to dodge when you're average opponents need a 6 or less to hit (assuming Normal Human maxima DEX of 20 but not counting Spider-Man's combat skill levels)?

[GoldenAge]

The question of Spider-man's speed is: Do you think he's faster than other comparable heroes? Is he quicker than Captain America? Is Captain America quicker than Nomad? Is Nomad quicker than Mockinbird? It becomes a chain of events. If you put Mockingbird at 5, Nomad at 6, Captain America at 7, then the natural progression is to put Spider-man at 8.

That's very true... But in your examples you choose (as is your right) to ignore Normal Human Maxima.

IMO: Cap should never have more than a 20 DEX and a SPEED of 4. He's the ultimate human but no more. His battle prowess should be reflected in Skill Levels rather than raw stats. Just my opinion. :D

If one was playing Normal Human Maxima then a Spider-Man with a 35 DEX and a 6 SPEED is perfect... a skilled human with a 12 DEX would need to roll a 3 to hit Spider-Man... Sounds right to me.

[Agent X]

That's very true... But in your examples you choose (as is your right) to ignore Normal Human Maxima.

IMO: Cap should never have more than a 20 DEX and a SPEED of 4. He's the ultimate human but no more. His battle prowess should be reflected in Skill Levels rather than raw stats. Just my opinion. :D

If one was playing Normal Human Maxima then a Spider-Man with a 35 DEX and a 6 SPEED is perfect... a skilled human with a 12 DEX would need to roll a 3 to hit Spider-Man... Sounds right to me. I'm sure everyone is tired of me posting this but I'm going to anyway. It's in my nature.

Normal Characteristic Maxima does not define the threshold for what is superhuman. It defines a point for a heroic level game where characters have to pay more points for higher characteristics. The only comment, to my knowledge, that DOJ has made concerening superhuman characteristics is in the Champions Genre book and that places the threshold well above NCM. Now, that is their suggestion however the fact that they suggest that puts the lie to the notion that NCM as marking the superhuman threshold is an actual rule. It's a house rule that ignores the way published characters are designed.

[Superskrull]

No problem from my end of things. Though the player has to be fast enough to play an eight speed.

Amen to that.

[Trebuchet]

We already have a PC with a higher DEX and SPD (DEX 43; SPD 9) in our campaign, so those would not be the issue. It would be more a matter of protecting schtick, and I suspect Spidey is a bit too tough to allow with such high SPD and DEX in our campaign.

The main problem with allowing Spidey as a PC would be any player running him would be quite logically trying to use comic books as references rather than the Hero system build: "See? Right here in Spectacular Spider-Man #468 it shows him (Fill in the blank), so mine should be able to also.

[lemming]

We already have a PC with a higher DEX and SPD (DEX 43; SPD 9) in our campaign, so those would not be the issue. It would be more a matter of protecting schtick, and I suspect Spidey is a bit too tough to allow with such high SPD and DEX in our campaign.

The main problem with allowing Spidey as a PC would be any player running him would be quite logically trying to use comic books as references rather than the Hero system build: "See? Right here in Spectacular Spider-Man #468 it shows him (Fill in the blank), so mine should be able to also.
Good point.

[casualplayer]

I don't think Spidey has an 8 SPD, and even if he did he would end up with END problems. He has probably a 6 SPD, and levels for making Multiple Power Attacks-Requires Acrobatics Roll. He flips all over the place, and punches people lots of times but not as a result of having an enormous SPD. He may also have bought AE: Variable Selective No Range on his STR, and he can take a swipe at anyone within a whole rooftop or city street.

Spider-Man has a high level of defenses that the sfx is "I get out of the way," but his DEX and SPD really aren't as high as most people stat them out as. He would be fine as a character.

[Agent X]

I don't think Spidey has an 8 SPD, and even if he did he would end up with END problems. He has probably a 6 SPD, and levels for making Multiple Power Attacks-Requires Acrobatics Roll. He flips all over the place, and punches people lots of times but not as a result of having an enormous SPD. He may also have bought AE: Variable Selective No Range on his STR, and he can take a swipe at anyone within a whole rooftop or city street.

Spider-Man has a high level of defenses that the sfx is "I get out of the way," but his DEX and SPD really aren't as high as most people stat them out as. He would be fine as a character. Maybe he's got reduced endurance?

And folks have given him higher dex and speed and provided explanations. Your argument against that is that he makes MPAs? I don't buy that. It doesn't fit the actions he performs panel-to-panel. Maybe you meant sweeps. That's more plausible but hard to do right in Champs and potentially more imbalance and he'd still have an endurance problem with MPAs or Sweeps.

The Area Effect selective strength - I would quibble with that much more than an 8 speed. I can just imagine the things a Spidey built with that could be doing that Spidey can't do in the comics.

[Cybertooth]

I'm sure everyone is tired of me posting this but I'm going to anyway. It's in my nature.

Normal Characteristic Maxima does not define the threshold for what is superhuman. It defines a point for a heroic level game where characters have to pay more points for higher characteristics. The only comment, to my knowledge, that DOJ has made concerening superhuman characteristics is in the Champions Genre book and that places the threshold well above NCM. Now, that is their suggestion however the fact that they suggest that puts the lie to the notion that NCM as marking the superhuman threshold is an actual rule. It's a house rule that ignores the way published characters are designed.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

[Cybertooth]

Would you allow Spider-man in your game?

Personally, I wouldn't allow Spider-man in my game. It doesn't have nothing to do with the stats you've shown, or anything. Instead, it has to do with the fact that he's Spider-man.

I've never allowed "published" characters into my games. I've made it a point that all player characters must be the players own creations. I would allow "clones" of Spider-man into my game, as long as they weren't exact clones. Afterall, a super with spider-type abilities isn't uncommon.

I guess I'm just weird that way.

[Iuz the Evil]

Personally, I wouldn't allow Spider-man in my game. It doesn't have nothing to do with the stats you've shown, or anything. Instead, it has to do with the fact that he's Spider-man.

I've never allowed "published" characters into my games. I've made it a point that all player characters must be the players own creations. I would allow "clones" of Spider-man into my game, as long as they weren't exact clones. Afterall, a super with spider-type abilities isn't uncommon.

I guess I'm just weird that way.

Ditto on this. Guess either we're both weird or you're not weird at all (least in regard to this).

[Zed-F]

I would have to agree with Cyber-tooth on this one.

[lemming]

I guess I'm just weird that way.
Nah. That's pretty common so that's not one of your wierd factors. ;)

[lemming]

As long as the character met the game criteria I wouldn't care if someone played a "real" comic book character at all. The point of any game is for people to have fun. If a gamer can have fun playing a 350 point Spider-man then more power too him.
I think Treb mentioned the reason many people shy away from allowing players play comic book heroes. It's like adding another rule book for just that character.

Cybertooth's way is fine with me.

[casualplayer]

Maybe he's got reduced endurance?

And folks have given him higher dex and speed and provided explanations. Your argument against that is that he makes MPAs? I don't buy that. It doesn't fit the actions he performs panel-to-panel. Maybe you meant sweeps. That's more plausible but hard to do right in Champs and potentially more imbalance and he'd still have an endurance problem with MPAs or Sweeps.

The Area Effect selective strength - I would quibble with that much more than an 8 speed. I can just imagine the things a Spidey built with that could be doing that Spidey can't do in the comics.

I highly doubt after 40 years that Spidey's player has gotten around to buying Reduced END :tonguewav

But seriously, the main problem people get into when converting published characters is that they forget where they started. Spider-Man started out with 28-30 STR, maybe 26 DEX, 20 CON. As he gained experience, he kept wanting to buy more DEX, more SPD and his GM capitulated to a point, but when he started to get ridiculous the GM steered him towards levels and funky stuff. Modern comic characters sheets should be several pages long!

There is never a drawback to buying more DEX. It's all good. If the GM doesn't put the brakes on, you end up with goofy stuff like 40+ DEXs (I double-dog-dare Trebuchet to not respond to this.) I spend 5 points and get a level w/ HTH Combat. I spend 6 points on DEX (and keep my SPD constant) and I get + 1 OCV, + 1 DCV and quite possibly a + 1 to all my DEX-based skills. Let me think about which I want to buy.

Spider-Man is all about MPAs and attacking multiple people over much more than a Sweep-sized area. He has 2 webshooters, each bought separately, and fires in multiple directions and with often differing effects. In fights with groups he often covers several square meters of area, fists swinging merrily and backflipping all over the place. He is designed as a solo hero able to fight villain teams.

If it helps any, Spidey and Daredevil share villains like fraternity brothers share...well, anyway. The guys that give Spider-Man a tough time would annihilate DD, if you envision Spider-Man at the stats suggested. Unless of course you think Daredevil has greater than a 26-29 DEX, 6 SPD, in which case we are both speaking English but not speaking the same language.

[Guzalot]

Although Spider-Man's STR is often subject to the will of his writer I've never known him (in a classic sense) to be able to lift more than a car... with effort. That would place his STR closer to 30 or 35.

With a 45 STR your version of Spider-man can lift a jet fighter over his head. That's too strong.
IIRC the Marvel Universe stated that Spidey could lift 10 tons. That would put him at about 45 STR.

[Hugh Neilson]

As long as the character met the game criteria I wouldn't care if someone played a "real" comic book character at all. The point of any game is for people to have fun. If a gamer can have fun playing a 350 point Spider-man then more power too him.

I think the key is for the player to be OK with the fact he is playing Spider Man as written on this character sheet, not as written in the comics. That can be tough for some players, especially if no effort is made to change names, background issues, etc.

I've seen Spiderman, Adam Warlock and Sub-Mariner clones (off the top of my head) and many powered armor characters are Iron Man clones. However, they have their own names, their own personality and their own stats - pulling out the comic and saying "but he can" never happens.

You want to play Spider-Man, then we get into the guy who has every issue since Amazing Fantasy 15 who points out that "Spidey would never do that" and we get arguments about what "your character" should or should not do. You play Parker Peterson, the Webspinner, and now he's YOUR character.

This also solves the "but he can do it - look at this issue" conundrum. Sure, Spiderman can do that (once), but with several monthly series over the years, and hundreds of guest star roles, he's got about 2,500 xp. Webspinner doesn't.

[Fox1]

I think the key is for the player to be OK with the fact he is playing Spider Man as written on this character sheet, not as written in the comics. That can be tough for some players, especially if no effort is made to change names, background issues, etc.

In 24 years of running a marvel campagin in four different states...

I've had that happen once. The player was removed the gaming group thereafter.

[Mister E]

Would you allow Spider-man in your game?

Not me. Right about the time I saw...

45 STR
35 DEX
8 SPD

I would have started hitting the player with ReFred...HARD!!! ;) Talk about a munchkined build...The average character in my 350 pt game, has roughly an Offensive X of:

10 DC's
10 OCV
5 SPD

total 25

I don't enforce the Rule of X strictly, but I do check it for balance purposes, and make changes so no one pulls too far away from the pack... everyone in my game likes to be able to threaten each other.

Your guy has a minimum of:

9 DC's
12 OCV
8 SPD

Total 29

This is a little over the top for me... and would create too many competition issues with the other players. If this character compensated by having a very low DEF, it would be lop-sided, but acceptable. The SPD is definately, the source of the biggest problem. If the SPD was dropped to 5, and the character had a below average DEF, I'd let it slide.

Now, if all of the characters in your campaign tend to clump up around the 350 pt guideline maximums... which yields an Offensive X of 37... this character would be handicapped.

[sbarron]

I never imagined this thread would go anywhere! I was just reading the Spiderman vs Firelord thread, and I thought to myself...Spidey is a mini-brick/speedster/martial artist. He has spent enough points in Dex and Spd to make him faster than 99% for the campaign, then bought his strength up make him stronger than 75% of the campaign. These, I think, are the 3 stats that have the most direct effect on combat, and this character spent a ton of points on them. If I were a munchkin looking to build a bad-ass martial artist, that's how I'd I'd do it.

Of course, then he threw in a martial art, MP webshooters, and a danger-sense. And viola, a wise-cracking wrecking ball that would be tough to GM for.

As for the comment about Daredevil and Spidey sharing villians, that's true, but only on Spidey's low end. Spider-man also stacks up favorably against most non-cosmic Marvel characters. Daredevil just isn't in that league.

[Fox1]

As for the comment about Daredevil and Spidey sharing villians, that's true, but only on Spidey's low end.

The comment also ignores the fact that Spiderman is specifically stated as being afraid of hurting people with his strength- thus he rarely if ever uses his full value on those who are anything close to human norm.

[WhammeWhamme]

I never imagined this thread would go anywhere! I was just reading the Spiderman vs Firelord thread, and I thought to myself...Spidey is a mini-brick/speedster/martial artist. He has spent enough points in Dex and Spd to make him faster than 99% for the campaign, then bought his strength up make him stronger than 75% of the campaign. These, I think, are the 3 stats that have the most direct effect on combat, and this character spent a ton of points on them. If I were a munchkin looking to build a bad-ass martial artist, that's how I'd I'd do it.

Of course, then he threw in a martial art, MP webshooters, and a danger-sense. And viola, a wise-cracking wrecking ball that would be tough to GM for.

As for the comment about Daredevil and Spidey sharing villians, that's true, but only on Spidey's low end. Spider-man also stacks up favorably against most non-cosmic Marvel characters. Daredevil just isn't in that league.

Spidey is a great Solo Hero. He can handle himself in combat, can survive fluky rolls (lucky hits, for example), and has a wide assortments of 'stuff' he can pull out if need be.

Fasat and superstrong is fine. The other stuff may make the character a little too independent; tone down the gadgeteering- how about organic webshooters instead? (;))

[Mister E]

I think the mechanical Web Shooters fits with the whole "spiders as craftsmen" schtick. :)

[WhammeWhamme]

I think the mechanical Web Shooters fits with the whole "spiders as craftsmen" schtick. :)

Sure, it fits the concept - the minor issue is schtick infringement. Fine as a solo hero, not so great for group play, where everyone needs a niche.

Then again, it might work. But the one 'Spider-Clone' I've dealt with wasn't a gadgeteer.

[Mister E]

Yes... niches/schticks are important, for superteams, and shouldn't be tread on, if you can help it...

Peter Parker is a 'total-package' hero... Strength, Speed, Dexterity, Intelligence, Psionics, Gadgets, Hot girlfriends... he's going to irk the other players at the gaming table. :tsk:

"How many hunted disads did you take!?!.... Sheesh..."