Default Waterproof Computers?

[Edsel]

Originally I had posted this in an obscure thread in the Dark Champions forum but it didn't seem to be getting noticed there so I moved it here.

I noticed something about the combat laptop computers shown in UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom. None of them have a Disadvantage or Power dealing with water. What happens if you drop it in a bucket of water?

Is it automatically considered to be waterproof since it has no susceptibility to water?

Or, would it malfunction since it lacks LS allowing it to survive in water?

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd be inclined to apply the "SFX trumps construct" rule and say it malfunctions under the same conditions any computer wuld malfunction. I would, however, be inclined to allow such equipment a -1/4 "real equipment" limitation (analogous to the "real weapon" and "real armor" limitations) to cover off this issue.

[Black Lotus]

And, conversely, if the Disadvantage "Real Computer" is worth -1/4, I suppose an extra +1/4 would allow a computer to be "Waterproof." That sounds good to me. (Using the same logic that, since it would cost 25 Character Points to purchase normal human sight, that's what the Disadvantage is worth point-wise.)

[darthvegita666]

military laptops can survive being dunked in water

so i would say that until laptops could too

[Hawksmoor]

SFX or LS: Appropriate Condition.

What ever the GM thinks would work.

Hawksmoor

[Black Lotus]

military laptops can survive being dunked in water

so i would say that until laptops could too

Having used a top-of-the-line U.S.A.F. Toughbook during my (fairly short) military career, I can say with some certainty that that is a crock.

Laptops CAN be made to be waterproof, but it takes a very specialized effort. Unless the laptop is specifically designed to function underwater for a water-based mission, it's not going to be waterproof.

[Agent X]

Having used a top-of-the-line U.S.A.F. Toughbook during my (fairly short) military career, I can say with some certainty that that is a crock.

Laptops CAN be made to be waterproof, but it takes a very specialized effort. Unless the laptop is specifically designed to function underwater for a water-based mission, it's not going to be waterproof. It's a little easier in my comic book to get a waterproof laptop.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's a little easier in my comic book to get a waterproof laptop.

The game isn't likely to be hugely unbalanced if one were to allow this as a default.

[Simon]

I would say an emphatic "No" to the original question. In the same way that a normal character doesn't get to take the Disadvantage "Dependence: Air"

Computers have certain things that they require and certain susceptibilities which will damage/destroy them. Just like humans do. They don't get to take Disadvantages to represent those -- Disadvantages are meant to represent things about the character/computer/whatever that set them apart from the norm (and disadvantage them).

[Black Lotus]

Don't get me wrong, a waterproofed computer is easy to do, but they aren't common at all. You could buy the parts for $20 in a diving magazine I bet.

[Chris Goodwin]

I would say an emphatic "No" to the original question. In the same way that a normal character doesn't get to take the Disadvantage "Dependence: Air"

Computers have certain things that they require and certain susceptibilities which will damage/destroy them. Just like humans do. They don't get to take Disadvantages to represent those -- Disadvantages are meant to represent things about the character/computer/whatever that set them apart from the norm (and disadvantage them).

Dan, do you have a cite? I don't recall seeing anything in either the books or the FAQ that says this, and the FAQ implies the opposite, though I could be mistaken (and I don't have 5ER). If you can provide a reference I would appreciate it.

[Simon]

Dan, do you have a cite? I don't recall seeing anything in either the books or the FAQ that says this, and the FAQ implies the opposite, though I could be mistaken (and I don't have 5ER). If you can provide a reference I would appreciate it.
At the office now (no book on me), but pretty much every character, vehicle, computer, etc. published operates under this principle. I believe that it is spelled out in either the character creation guidelines or under the Disadvantages section of the book.

Are you saying that you believe having a normal human take the Disadvantage "Dependence: Air" is legitimate?

[Chris Goodwin]

At the office now (no book on me), but pretty much every character, vehicle, computer, etc. published operates under this principle. I believe that it is spelled out in either the character creation guidelines or under the Disadvantages section of the book.


I believe the FAQ implies differently about Computers. That could just be interpretation on my part.


Are you saying that you believe having a normal human take the Disadvantage "Dependence: Air" is legitimate?

No.

[sinanju]

Water? What about OIL, huh?

Oh. Wait. Here's experimental evidence.

Computer submered in oil works just fine! (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/05/11/computer_sits_in_an_.html)

[Black Lotus]

Water? What about OIL, huh?

Oh. Wait. Here's experimental evidence.

Computer submered in oil works just fine! (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/05/11/computer_sits_in_an_.html)

I know about this from my time in the Air Force. If a liquid is non-conductive, or almost so, an electronic machine will function the same, or, if heat is a factor, better than it would in air. We have a substance called Dampening Fluid in the Air Force, which is actually probably exactly what that "oil" is, since it has to be specially developed to be nonconductive. :joint:

[Chris Goodwin]

I know about this from my time in the Air Force. If a liquid is non-conductive, or almost so, an electronic machine will function the same, or, if heat is a factor, better than it would in air. We have a substance called Dampening Fluid in the Air Force, which is actually probably exactly what that "oil" is, since it has to be specially developed to be nonconductive. :joint:

According to the web page, it's vegetable oil.

I've also seen one in mineral oil, when I first got into Slashdot (early '99).

[Black Lotus]

If so, then these oils are either non-conductive, or almost totally non-conductive. Air can conduct electricity (such as lightning bolts), but it is extremely difficult. There's a lot of resistance, which is the proper term to describe how difficult it is for electricity to be conducted through a given material.

Dampening fluid was a special case, because it also functioned as a lubricant and a coolant.

[JmOz]

I would say that if the lap top has taken a -1/4 "Real Equipment" then it should be effected by water (or a Phys Disad if the GM is like me and has a problem with lims on perks). This in my opinion is appropriate because the mechanic "computer" does not necesarily equal a real computer.


For example:

A Intelegent Sword is not a "Computer" but you would likely build it with the computer mechanic. Should the magic sword malfunction do to water?

The fact is that in the hero system many things have misleading names to cover a general concept, if we get are selves wraped up in the name then we have some weird builds around to build something basic

[Mister E]

Taking the -1/4 Limitation "Real Equipment" is a fine solution. I just think it is unnecessary. Though, I will admit, even though I'm not that big a fan of the "Real Weapon" Limitation, it does serve its purpose.

If "Real Equipment" was taken for computers... what about Automatons and Vehicles... a zombie (or clay golem) probably doesn't require as much (or any) maintenance, when compared to a robot. Yet I wouldn't suggest that this be represented with a Limitation, though you could if you wanted to. "Magic Carpet" vs. "Motorcycle" would be another example, using vehicles.

At some point in creating a game, you just need to stop trying to explain every nuance of detail with rules, (which is possible with a system this well crafted), and let the SFX's, and the GM's common sense, fill in the blanks.

When it comes to the arguement between "Talking Swords" vs. "iMacs"... and taking the Disadvantage "Dependence: Air"... well... I say season to taste. For my money, "less is more."

[Supreme Serpent]

Does the computer have Windows? 'cause if those are left open, the water would come right in. :angel:

I haven't seen the description or writeup, but my instinct on an UNTIL "combat laptop" would be that it would probably be fine underwater. UNTIL runs around in submarines and assaults underwater villainous lairs on a fairly frequent basis, so I would give them the benefit of the doubt. If it was just an FBI laptop, I wouldn't.

[Chris Goodwin]

At some point in creating a game, you just need to stop trying to explain every nuance of detail with rules, (which is possible with a system this well crafted), and let the SFX's, and the GM's common sense, fill in the blanks.


A computer that fries when it falls in the water is measurably worse than one that doesn't. In some campaigns it could be enough to be worth something, either as a Limitation or Disadvantage on the one that does or as a Power for the one that doesn't.

[prestidigitator]

If so, then these oils are either non-conductive, or almost totally non-conductive. Air can conduct electricity (such as lightning bolts), but it is extremely difficult. There's a lot of resistance, which is the proper term to describe how difficult it is for electricity to be conducted through a given material.

Dampening fluid was a special case, because it also functioned as a lubricant and a coolant.
For that matter, deionized water is relatively non-conductive, and I wouldn't be horribly surprised to find that you could run a computer sitting in it (at least until some electrolytic solutes were introduced--possibly airborne ones, over time). No need to try it unless you've got an old clunker you're itching to get rid of, though. :)

[prestidigitator]

A computer that fries when it falls in the water is measurably worse than one that doesn't. In some campaigns it could be enough to be worth something, either as a Limitation or Disadvantage on the one that does or as a Power for the one that doesn't.
Yeah. Like 1-3 points for the Life Support. Same value as a Disadvantage if they are waterproof as an, "Everycomputer." :)